Call the booke howe you will so the wordes bee there Phi. There shall you finde them Theo. There we finde them not Phi. What Prints haue you Theo. Prints enow Alopecius at Cullen Heruagius at Basill Langelier at Paris Crinitus at Antuerp Gryphius at Lions Manutius at Rome In all these and diuerse others we finde no such wordis Phi. In deede I confesse the wordes were wanting till Pamelius a Canon of Bruges found them in an old written copie lying in the Abbay of Cambron In his edition printed at Antuerp by Stelsius you shall finde them Theo. And thinke you Philander that all other copies both printed written lacking those words Pamelius did wel to put them to Cyprians text Phi. He laid them down as he found them written in the copie which is kept at Cambron Theo. As though the blinde Abbay of Cambron were of greater credit authoritie than all the Churches and Libraries of Christendom Phi. I say not so Theo. What else do you say when you cite these words for Cyprians which no copie printed nor written hath besides that of Cambron There haue trauelled in the correcting setting forth of Cyprian at sundry times men of your owne religion not a few namely Remboltus Canchius Costerius Erasmus Grauius Manutius Morelius euerie one of these for their seuerall editions searching farre and neere and vsing the best written copies that coulde be gotten or heard of and they all agree that no such wordes are founde in their copies yea Pamelius himselfe hauing as hee confesseth the sight and helpe of eight other written copies from diuerse places founde these wordes in none but in Cambron copie Since then either Cambron copie must be corrupt or an infinite number of other written copies that haue beene viewed by these learned men of your owne side and are yet extant in diuerse Abbayes and Churches obedient to the See of Rome at this houre say your selfe in reason whether we ought to beleeue your Cambron copie before all the copies that haue beene perused and are yet remaining in Europe Phi. That were much but how could this copie be corrupted Theo. What a question that is How could whole books be thrust into the workes of Cyprian Ambrose Hierom Austen others ly forged vnder their names not in one or two but in the most part of the Abbayes and auncient libraries of the West Church Your Monkes and Friers that were so skilfull in committing these manifold forgeries were not to seeke how to corrupt your Cambron copie Phi. It helpeth Pamelius very much that Gratian 400. yeares agoe cited the very same words as out of Cyprian Theo. Gratian might be deceiued by the same or some other false copie as wel as Pamelius of al men Gratian him selfe is most corrupt in alleadging the Fathers but what if Gratian be forged as wel as Cyprian Phi. Nay then al shal be forged that liketh not you Theo. They that ventered on Cyprian others would neuer sticke to frame Gratian to their purpose Phi. This is but your suspicion Theo. Yes I haue some reason to chalenge this in your Canon law for a corruption The very same place of Cyprian is elsewhere alleaged at large by Gratian in his decrees where we find no such words and therefore this or that must needes be forged Againe â—ohannes Seneca who liued seuen skore yeares after Gratian ouer-skippâ—â—h this place without any glosse as not finding it in the decrees extant in his time Phi. You be deceaued there is a glosse vppon this place Theo. I am not deceaued there is none Looke to the lesser volume of your decrees printed by Iohn Petit and Thielman Keruer and you shall see there is none And he that in the bigger volume of your decrees thinking to preuent this obiection set a certaine glosse to the chapter Qui Cathedram shewed himselfe not to be his crafts maister for he grossely mistaking the wordes that follow Episcopi verò which are Gratians thinking them to be Cyprians put the summe of Gratians words as a glosse to Cyprians text which is nothing neare and so betrayeth him a willing but no skilful forgerer Last of all the relatiue that you most esteeme and I most withstand super quam on which chayre the Church is built is contrarie to the plaine wordes of Cyprian not many lines before cited by Gratian and confessed by Pamelius to be fouÌ„d in his Cambron copie super vnum illum edificat Ecclesiam vppon him alone meaning Peter Christ buildeth his Church So that either you must mend your booke and reade super queÌ„ on whom the Church is built or els make Cyprian so forgetful that with in eight lines he contradicteth himselfe refuteth his former saying Phi. May not the Church bee built on him and his successours Theo. If Peter alone were chosen by Christ to be the foundatioÌ„ that is the first stone that should be layed in the building of his Church how can that possibly bee extended to his successors Can you remoue Peter froÌ„ the foundation where Christ laied him not do him wrong Or can you change the foundation and not shake the building of the Church Phi. You tooke the foundation I perceaue for the first beginning Theo. And what call you that which is first layed in the buylding of an house but the foundation Phi. Did Cyprian meane so Theo. Cyprian expresseth his meanyng in this sort Though Christ after his resurrection gaue all his Apostles equall power yet for the declaratioÌ„ of vnitie with his owne voyce and autoritie did he dispose the originall of that vnitie to beginne in one which was Peter The rest of the Apostles were the selfesame that Peter was endewed with like fellowship of honor and power but the first beginning came from oâ—e that is Christ chose Peter alone to be the original or first beginning of his Church Now this is proper to Peters person to be the first Stone that was laied in â—he foundation of the Church and can not be deriued from him to his successour Phi. That priuilege died with Peter vnlesse it remayne in some successour Theo. Not so Peter as well after death as during life keepeth the same place which Christ gaue him in the building of his Church vnlesse you meane to exclude the Saincts cleane froÌ„ the Church of Christ. Phi. They be of the Church triumphant not militant Theo. And those be not two but one Church Ierusalem which is aboue is the mother of vs all Ye be now sayth Paul no more strangers and forreners but Citizens with the Saincts and of the howshold of God For you be come to the Citie of the Liuing God the heauenly Ierusalem and to the Church of the first borne written in heauen and to the spirits of iust men now made perfect Where you see the Saincts in heaueÌ„ be not remoued from the Church of God but we
for the studie of diuinitie is as deepely layed as theirs our diligence rather more than theirs our time both of age and studie more complete than theirs cōmonly can bee our order methode course of diuinitie much more profitable than theirs we haue moe disputations lessons conferences examinations repetitions instructions catechizings resolutions of cases both of conscience and controuersie methodes and manners to proceede to the conuersion of the deceiued and such like exercises in our two Colleges thā are in their two Vniuersities cōtayning neere hand 30. goodly Colleges As for the Masters professors of our Colleges specially the Romane readers we may be bold to say They be in all kind the most choyse and cunning men of Christendom for vertue learning c. Nowe for that part of education which pertayneth to Christian life manners our chiefe endeuour is in both the Colleges to breede in our scholers deuotion c. Which is done by diuers spirituall exercises as dayly examinations of their consciences often communicating or receiuing the. B. Sacrament much praying continuall hearing and meditation of holy things Phi. Can you in all this charge him with a lye Theo. Whether it bee true or false that he saith we neither care nor come to discusse The comparison of wits ages and exercises would rather beseeme boyes in the schoole than diuines in the Church this vaunting of vertue learning oftē communicating much praying continuall meditation of holy thinges is fitte for Pharisees vnfit for Christians Better is sayth Austen an humble confession in doing euill than a proud vaunt in doing well Phi. To speake truth is no vaunt Theo. To speake trueth in the commendation of your selues is the greatest pride you can shewe Let an other man prayse thee sayth Salomon and not thine owne mouth But this is the iust reward of your error that you take notable paynes to please your selues with an inward perswasion of your owne worthines to be reuerenced of others for the deepenes of your learning holines of your liues which desire of glorie so possesseth your heads that when other heraults fayle you you sticke not openly to the whole world to blaze your owne vertues Phi. We neuer spake but forced that in the necessarie defence of our selues Theo. Who forced Campion to write backe to Rome not only what admiration but what veneration a worde fitter for Saints than friers himselfe and his bande of Iesuites had gotten in England by their singular learning and holines The Priests saith hee of our societie they excelling in knowledge and sanctitie haue raysed so great an opinion of our order that the veneratiō which the Catholiques yeeld vs I thinke not good to be spokē but fearefully The framer of your Apologie what occasion had hee to braue both Uniuersities in such sort as he doth as well with the scholasticall as spiritual exercises of your two Colleges but only that he would haue the Iesuites waxe famous for the greatnes of their skill and purenes of their liues that the chiefest praise might redound to him selfe and others the Masters and Gouernours of those two Colleges Phi. We were charged in open proclamation that we liued contrary to the lawes of God and the Realme Theo. And doth your dayly disputing or much praying discharge you from that Phi. It sheweth our domesticall conuersation to be honest and orderly Theo. That is nothing to this purpose The Princes Edict did not meane your priuate disputatiōs or deuotions of which you cracke but obiected vnto you that you trayned vp your scholers in false and erroneous doctrine and vsed them to lewde and vngodly purposes as to withdrawe the people from their obedience to God and the Magistrate Phi. Let your Edict meane what it will our Apologie cleareth vs from all that was vntruely surmised against vs and I am right glad you haue seene the booke for there shall you find vs sufficiently proued to be both good subiects and good Catholiques notwithstanding your often and earnest inuectiues to the contrary Theo. If facing and cracking will doe the deede the conquest is yours Your defender hath fraighted his booke with so many solemne protestations patheticall exclamations and confident asseuerations but to the wiser sort that are led with euident trueth not with eloquent speach vnlesse you make some better demonstration of your integritie to God and your Prince than I yet see you bee like to goe neither for good subiects nor for good Catholiques Phi. Can you wish for a better than our Apologie Theo. I neuer mette with a worse Phi. What doth it lacke Theo. Not wordes they be copious curious enough but I neuer sawe fewer or weaker proofes Phi. What one poynt is there left vnproued Theo. Nay what one thing haue you iustly proued Phi. Come to the parts The first chapter giueth the reasons of our leauing this lande and liuing beyonde the seas what say you to those bee they not euident be they not sufficient Theo. Repeate them your selfe lest I chaunce to misse them Phi. The vniuersall Lacke of the Soueraigne sacrifice and Sacraments Catholiquely ministred without which the soule of man dyeth as the body doeth without corporall foode this constraint to the contrary seruices whereby men perish euerlastingly this intollerable othe repugnant to God the Church her Maiesties honour and all mens consciences and the dayly dangers disgraces vexations feares imprisonments empouerishments despites which they must suffer and the raylings and blasphemies against Gods Sacraments Saints Ministers and all holies which they are forced to heare in our Countrie are the onely causes why so many of vs are departed out of our naturall Countrey and doe absent our selues so long from that place where we had our being birth and bringing vp These they be what fault find you with them Theo. The selfe same that I finde with the rest of your Apologie You say what you list and neuer offer to proue that you say your bare word is your best argument and other authoritie than your owne you produce not Phi. The matter is so manifest that it needeth no proofe Theo. That presumption is so foolish that it needeth no refuter Phi. If you doubt or deny them wee bee readie to proue them Theo. That must you first doe before wee refell them Yet lest you should glorie too much of your paynted sheath the replie to your first chapter may shortly bee this The sacrifice which Christ offered on the crosse for the sinnes of the worlde wee beleeue with all our heartes and reuerence with all our might accounting the same to bee perfect without wanting eternall without renewing and this is our Soueraigne sacrifice The Lordes table which himselfe ordeined to bee the memoriall of his death and passion wee keepe and continue in that maner and forme that hee first prescribed and this may bee called and is a sacrifice both in respect of the thankes there giuen to God
your owne fellowes haue reported lamented in no worse than the fountaines of your faith and heads of your Church I wil not say the refues of England but euen the Priests of Baal and Bacchus were Saints in comparison of so lewd and intolerable monsters Stephanus the sixt and Sergius the third pulled Formosus their predecessor out of his graue the one cutting off his fingers the other his head and cast his carkas into Tybris Iohn the twelfth gaue orders in a stable amongst his horses abused his fathers concubine made his pallace a stues put out his Ghostly fathers eyes gelded one of his Cardinals ranne about in armes to set howses on fiar drank to the diuel and at dise called for help of Iupiter and Venus Boniface the seuenth getting the Popedom by il meanes robbed Saint Peters church of al the Iewels pretious things he could find ranne his waies returning not long after caught one of his Cardinals put out his eies Syluester the seconde leauing his Monasterie betooke himselfe wholly to the diuel by whose help he gate to be Pope on this condition that after his death he should be the diuels both bodie and soule Benedict the ninth sold his Popedome to Gregorie the sixt and was therefore worthily blamed of all men and by Gods iudgement condemned For it is certaine that after his death he appeared in an ougly shape with the head and taile of an asse the body of a beare and being asked what that horrible sight ment because saith he whiles I was Pope I liued like a beast without law without reason defiling the Chaire of Peter with al kind of lewdnes Of Gregorie the seuenth and his adherents Beno the cardinal writeth thus Let these hypocrites hold their peace that haue disgraced almost drouned the name of blessed Peter by cloking the flames of their malice vnder a colour of Catholicisme pretēce of iustice Let these false prophets be astonished that are curteous in shew scorpiōs in sting wolues vnder lambs skinnes killing the bodies deuouring the soules of men with the sword of their mouth whose religion sauoureth nothing but of traiterousnes and couetousnes entring the houses of widowes they lead women captiues that bee loden with sinnes and by reason of our troublesome times giue eare to spirits of error and doctrines of diuels which Hildebrand their captain learned of his maisters Benedict the ninth and Gregorie the sixt Gregorie the ninth as Vrspergensis cōplaineth taking occasion by the Emperours absence that was fighting against the Turke sent a great armie into Apulia and inuaded subdued the Emperours dominions being thē in the seruice of Christ a fact most hainous and did his best both in Apulia and Lumbardie to hinder such as were going that viage from passing the Sea seeking thereby to betray the Christian Emperour his armie to the Turke Yea the men of Verona Millan would suffer none to passe by their coasts spoyling the very souldiers that were sent to fight against the Turke and that by the cōmandement of the Pope as they affirmed which alas is horrible to be spoken Who rightly considering wil not lament and detest these things as portending and foreshewing the ruine of the Church Mathewe Paris giueth Innocentius the 3. this commendation King Iohn saith he knew and by often experience had tried that the Pope aboue al mortal men was ambitious and proude an vnsatiable thirster after money and easie to be drawen and induced to all wickednes by gifts or promises Sixtus the fourth made his playfelow Cardinal who was wont to weare cloth of gold at home in his house to ease nature in stooles of siluer and to deck his harlot Tiresia with shoes couered with pearle as Agrippa reporteth he built a sumpteous stewes in Rome appointing it to be both masculine and feminine and making a gaine of that beastly trade As Vuesselus Gronnigensis sayth he gaue the whole familie of the Cardinal of S. Luce free leaue in Iune Iulie August to vse that which nature abhorreth God in Sodome reuenged with fire and brimstone One of your owne side perceiuing the lothsomnes of his life maketh the diuel giue him this entertaynment in hell At tu implume caput cui tanta licentia quondam Femineos fuit in coitus tua furta putabas Hic quoque praetextu mitrae impunita relinqui Sic meruit tua faeda venus sic prodigia in omnem Nequitiam ad virtutis opus tua auara libido But thou thou bauld pate which hast so licentiously defiled thy self with women didst thou thinke thy secrete sinnes by reason of thy myter shoulde here goe vnpunished Receiue the rewarde of thy filthie pastimes so hath thine outragious lust to all lewdnes and voyde of all goodnes deserued It is too shameful that Iohannes Iouianus Pontanus writeth of Lucretia the daughter of Alexander the sixt Hoc tumulo dormit Lucretia nomine sedre Thais Alexandri filia sponsa nurus Here lyeth Lucretia in name in deede a shamelesse whore the daughter of Pope Alexander her fathers brothers harlot The fact so horrible that it were not credible if others did not confirme the same I will trouble chast eares no longer with this vnsauory repetition These disorders of Popes if you weigh them well be more than scandalous giue you smal cause to vaunt of your vertues Phi. These be the things that we told you were more false than Esops fables Theo. It were reason you shoulde proue them false before you reiect them as fables men of your owne sect and side laying thē down for truths in their writings you may not now take vpō you to pronounce them fables lest your credite be called in question your selues reputed to bee worse than lyars These things be they true bee they false wee report them as we find them in your owne stories not your aduersaries but your welwillers were the first autors of them And vnlesse wee see some surer ground than your bare deniall we may better charge you with open flatterie than you may them with wilful forgerie Phi. The number is not great though y◠matters were true Theo. The rest of their outrages if I would recken namely their schismes cōtentions tumults for the Popedom their ambition presumption oppression briberie periurie tyrannie pride craft hypocrisie to conclude their garboyles battailes and bloodshed an whole volume would not suffice And where you make your Clergie so free from scandals heare what men of former times and of your owne side haue spoken and written of your Bishops Priests Monkes and others Bernard of his age Behold saith he these times very much defiled with the worke that walketh in darknes Wo bee to this generation because of the leauen of Pharisees which is hypocrisie If it may be called hypocrisie which is now so rife that it can not and so shamelesse that
it seeketh not to bee kept secrete A rotten contagion creepeth at this day through the whole body of the Church the wyder the desperater the more inward the more deadly All friends al enemies al familiar none peacemakers they be the ministers of Christ serue Antichrist TheÌ„ce is it as thou maist dayly see that they be trimmed like whoores attired like plaiers serued like Princes Thence is it that they wear gold in their bridles sadles spurs yea their spurs shine brighter than the Altars thence are their bankets drunkennes thence their musike instrumeÌ„ts thence their wine presses running ouer stoarehouses stuffed with all varietie thence their barrels of oyntments to paint theÌ„selues thence their bags bugets full For these things are they seek they to be rulers of churches Deanes Archdeacons Bishops Archbishops The wound of the Church is inward incurable Rest froÌ„ infidels rest froÌ„ heretikes but not from children They haue despised defiled her with their filthie life with their filthie gain with their filthie trade Ye be called Pastors when in deed ye be spoylers and woulde God the milke fleese did suffice ye ye thirst for blood The Archpriest visiteth his charge to fil his purse he betraieth innocent blood he selleth murders adultries incests fornications â—acrileges periuries filleth his pouch to the brim And as for the ornament of chastitie how keep they that which being deliuered into a reprobate sense do that which is not fit It is a shame to name those things which the bishops do in secrete But why should I be ashamed to speak that which they are not ashamed to do Yea the Apostle is not ashamed to write meÌ„ vpon meÌ„ work filthines receiuing the reward of their error With the patrimony of the crosse of Christ you feede whores in your chambers you fat your flesh you furnish your horses with pectorals headstals of golde For this you claw Princes and Powers of darkenes both men and diuels Hee that list to reade more of your scandals may in that place whence this is taken haue enough Albertus Magnus of his time giueth this testimonie Those which now rule in the Church be for the most part theeues murderers rather oppressors than feeders rather spoilers than tutors rather killers than keepers rather peruerters than teachers rather seducers than leaders These be the messengers of Antichrist and vnderminers of the flocke of Christ. The tripartite worke that standeth next to the Councel of Lateran vnder Innocentius the 3. long since complained of your Clergie in this sort So great is the notorious vncleannes of lecherie in many partes of the worlde not in clerks only but in Priests also that which is horrible to heare in the prelates theÌ„selues Again they spend the goods of the Church so badly in vanities superfluities setting vp aduancing their kinsmen and in many other riots sinnes yea there is such a number those no smale ones that do no good in the church but spend their daies in pleasures by reasoÌ„ of the wealth of the church that it is much to be feared least God for these other haynous offences of the clergie passing great very many now inueterate do ouerthrowe or cause the ecclesiastical state to bee ouerthrowen as it came to passe in the Iewes first exalted by God and after destroyed for euer Holcot 20. yeres since The Priests of our age sayth he be like the Priestes of Baal they are wicked Angels they resemble the Priestes of Dagon they are Priestes of Priapus and Angels of hell And lest you should dreame that nearer our time your Clergie began to bee better reformed Platina saith What shall we thinke will become of our age wherein our vices are growen to that heighth that they skant haue left vs place with God for mercie How great the couetousnes of priests is especially of the rulers amoÌ„g theÌ„ how great their lecherie of al sorts how great their ambition pompe how great their pride slouth howe grosse their ignorance both of theÌ„selues of christian doctrine how smal their deuotioÌ„ that rather fained than true how corrupt their maners I neede not speak Frier Mantuan not long after him in that point agreeth with him Petrique domus polluta fluenti Marcescit luxu nulla hic arcana reuelo Non ignota loquor liceat vulgata referre Sic vrbes populique ferunt ea fama per omnem Iam vetus Europam mores extirpat honestâ—s Sanctus ager scurris venerabilis ara Cynedis Seruit honorandae diuum Ganimedibus edes Quid miramur opes recidiuaque surgere tecta Venalia nobis Templa sacerdotes altaria sacra coronae Ignes thura preces celum est venale deusque The house of Peter defiled with excessiue riote is quite decayed I reueale here no secrets neither speak I things vnknown I may vtter that which is in euery mans mouth Cities Countries talke of it the very bruite thereof scatered loÌ„g since ouer al Europe hath queÌ„ched al care of vertue The church lands are giuen to coÌ„mon Iesters the sacred altar allotted to wantons the temples of saints to boyes prouided for filthie lust Why wonder wee to see wealth flow and houses that were fallen to be stately built We sell temples Priests Altars sacrifices garlands fier frankensense prayers wee sell heauen and God himselfe Of your Priests he sayth Inuisi superis faedaque libidine olentes Heu frustra incestis iterant sacra orgia dextris Irritant irasque mouent non numina flectunt Nil adiutoribus istis Auxilij sperate nouis date templa ministris Sacrilegum genus ex adytis templisque Deorum Pellite nec longos scelera haec vertantur in vsus Hateful to heauen lothsome with vncleane lust alas in vaine attempt they sacred rites with incestuous hands They rather kindle and prouoke God than appease him neuer hope for help as long as such pray for you giue the Churches to new ministers and chase this sacriligious generation from the diuine places neither let their haynous sinnes grow to a custome By him wee may learne what fruits to looke for of your Romish Seminarie Heu Romae nunc sola pecunia regnat Exilium virtus patitur Vrbs est iam tota lupanar Roma quid insanis toties quid sanguine gaudes Quid geris imbelli spicula tanta manu Si foris arma tacent tu bella domestica tentas Nec feritas requiem ferre superba potest Tu fratres in bella vocas in pignora patres Et scelus omne audes paris omne nefas Fas iura negas homines numina fallis Nec Iouis imperium nec Phlegethonta times Alas at Rome now nothing but money doth raign vertue is quite banished the whole Citie is a stewes Rome why art thou so often mad why delightest thou in blood Why with weake hands dost
endure for Simonie non residence wrongfull excommunication playing at tables resorting to spectacles ordering any Clerke without diligent examination or contrarie to the Princes ecclesiastical lawes in which cases Iustinian commandeth them to bee SVSPENDED EXCOMMVNICATED DEPOSED as the fault meriteth and his edict appointeth It was then no newes for a Prince to say Diuers complaints haue beene brought vs against Clerks Monks and many Bishops that some leade not their liues according to the sacred Canons others can not the publike praiers which should be sayd at the sacred oblation and baptisme we therefore recounting the iudgement of God with our selues HAVE COMMAVNDED THAT IN EVERY MATTER THVS DETECTED LAWFVLL INQVISITION AND CORRECTION PROCEEDE comprising in this edict those things that were before skattered in sundry constitutions touching the most religious Bishops Clerkes and Monkes with such punishments added as wee rhought expedient And againe OVR CHIEFEST CARE IS FOR THE TRVETH OF GODS DOCTRINE AND SEEMELY CONVERSATION OF THE CLERGIE THE THINGS THEN WHICH WE HAVE DECREED AND MAKE FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THE SACRED ORDER AND STATE CONSONANT TO THE TENOR OF HOLY RVLES LET THE MOST GODLY PATRIARKES OF EVERY DIOCESSE THE METROPOLITANES AND RIGHT REVEREND BISHOPS AND CLERKES KEEPE FOR EVER HEREAFTER INVYOLABLE THE BREAKER OF THEM SHALBE SVRE TO BE SEQVESTRED VTTERLY FROM GOD AND EXCLVDED FROM HIS PRIESTLY FVNCTION Licencing all men of what sort or calling soeuer they bee that perceiue the least point of these our Lawes transgressed to denounce and infourme the same to our highnes that wee which following the sacred rules and Apostolike tradition haue commaunded these thinges may reuenge such offendours as they well deserue Farther hee sayth Our purpose in this present Lawe is next after those matters which wee haue disposed of the most holy Bishoppes and reuerend Clerkes to set a good order in monasticall discipline for so much as there is no kinde of thing exempted from the Princes inquisition which hath receiued from God a common regiment and soueraintie ouer all men and these things which concerne God must bee preserued from corruption by the sacred Prelates and ciuill Magistrates but most of all by our Maiestie which vse not to neglect any diuine causes but labour by all meanes that our common wealth by the fauour of the great God and our Sauiour Christ towardes men may reape the fruite of that purenes and integritie which Clerkes Monkes and Bishoppes from the highest to the lowest shall shewe foorth in keeping the sacred Canons our lawes prouided in that behalfe which constitutions by this our decree wee strengthen a fresh and ratifie Put on your spectakles and see whether Iustinian do not take vppon him to gouerne the doctrine and discipline of the Church the conuersation of Clerkes Monkes and Priestes and to commaunde Prelates and Patriarkes in the celebration of sacraments conuocation of Synodes election and confirmation of Bishoppes ordering of Clerkes and such like functions except our eyesight fayle vs wholy spirituall and in the iudgement of your neerest friends acknowledged for causes ecclesiasticall I will omitte what Iustinian enacted touching mariages diuorces legacies funerals incests adulteries and such like then pertinent to the Princes power and sworde nowe claymed by your holy father for a surplussage to causes ecclesiasticall and with that seely shift conueyed out of Princes handes who first vppon fauour and opinion of holynes and wisedome in Bishoppes gaue them leaue to meddle with such matters I will omitte I say that and descende to the Lawes of Charles the great Emperour of the West partes eight hundreth yeeres after Christ which Ansegisus gathered together within thirteene yeeres of the death of the sayde Charles In his preface of those Lawes thus speaketh that wise Prince Considering the passing goodnes of Christ our Lord towardes vs and our people and howe needefull it is not onely to giue thankes to God incessantly with heart and mouth but also with good endeuours continually to set foorth his honour and praise c. Therefore O you Pastours of Christes Church and teachers of his flocke Haue wee directed Commissioners vnto you that shall ioyne with you to redresse those thinges which neede reformation in our name and by vertue of our authoritie and to this ende wee haue here annexed certaine briefe chapters of Canonicall or ecclesiasticall institutions such as we thought meetest Let no man iudge this our admonition to godlines to bee presumptuous Whereby wee seeke to correct thinges amisse to cutte off superfluities and leade men to that which is right but rather receiue it with a charitable mynde For in the booke of kinges wee reade what paynes godly Iosias tooke to bring the kingdome giuen him of GOD to the true worship of the same God by visiting correcting and instructing them not that wee compare our selues with his sanctitie but that we should alwayes imitate such examples of the godly We see the reason why these Lawes were published and commissioners sent from the Prince to put them in execution now let vs examine the Lawes themselues and marke what causes they chiefely concerne Peruse the booke you will on my woord expect no farther proofe that Princes had then to doe with persons and causes ecclesiasticall If your leasure serue you not by these fewe which I will report you may coniecture the rest The first seuen and fiftie Canons are borowed out of such generall and prouinciall Councels as Charles best liked for example That no man excommunicated in one place shall bee taken to the communion in an other place That when any Clerk is ordered his faith and life bee first exactly tried That no strange Clerke bee receaued or ordered without letters of commendation and licence from his owne Bishop That no seruant bee made Clerk or Moncke without his masters consent That no man bee made Priest vnder thirtie yeares of age neither then at randon but appointed and fastned to a certaine cure That no Bishop meddle with giuing orders in an other mans diocesse That no Bishop veele any widoes at all nor maydens vnder the age of twentie and fiue That the Bishop of each Prouince and the Metropolitane meete yerely twise in Councel for causes of the Church That Priests when they say their masses shall also communicate That only the bookes canonical shall bee read in the Church That the false names of Martyres and vncertaine memories of Sainctes bee not obserued That Sunday bee kept from euening on Saturday till euening the next day with other such constitutions prescribing a direct order to Bishoppes Priestes and Monkes for ecclesiasticall causes Phi. These bee Canons of former Councels Theo. True but selected and deliuered by Charles to those visitours which he sent with his authoritie to refourme the Church and the rest that followe to the number of an hundred and fiue chapters did Charles frame by conference with learned and godly men at
betweene two Metropolitanes and that the confirming of Bishops be not long differed neither any Bishop remoue from his diocesse without the decree of other Bishops That no lay man presume to place or displace Clerks but by the Bishops Consent That excommunications be not ouer rife and for trifeling causes That euery Church haue a Priest as soone as the Bishop can prouide Item the Bishop shal looke that the Church of God haue due honor no secular busines nor vaine iangling shal be suffered in the Church because the howse of God is the howse of praier but that al men haue their mindes attentiuely bent to God when they come to masse and not depart before the Priest haue ended his blessing Because Canonicall profession partly for ignorance partly for sloth was very much defaced we tooke paines at our sacred session to gather as it were certaine sweet flowers out of the monuments of blessed writers and proportion a rule both for women and men of Canonicall conuersation which the whole assemblie so well liked of that they thought it worthie to bee kept without alteration and therefore wee decree that all of that sort hold it without failing and in any case hereafter obserue the same How we haue disposed touching Monckes and giuen them leaue to chose an Abbat of themselues and ordered their purpose of life wee haue caused to be drawen in an other schedule and confirmed it that it might stand good and inuiolable with the Princes our successors Prouided always that laymen be neither ouerseers of Moncks nor Archdeacons We heare say that certaine Abbesses against the manner of the Church of God giue blessing with laieng their hands and making the signe of the Crosse on the heads of men Know you sacred fathers that this must be vtterly forbidden in your diocesse Wee haue a precept in Deuteronomie No man shall consult a southsaier obserue dreames or respect diuinations there shal bee no sorcerer no inchaunter no coniurer Therefore wee commaund that none calculate practise charmes or take vppon them to Prophesie what weather shall come but wheresoeuer such bee founde either to bee refourmed or condemned Likewise for trees rockes springs where some fooles make their obseruations wee giue straite charge that this wicked vse detected of GOD be banished euerie where and destroyed Of mariage your demaund whether a man may take to wife a mayde that is espoused to an other In any case we forbid it because that blessing which the Priest giueth her that is betrothed is to the faithful in manner of a sacrilege if it any way be violated THAT our visitours looke diligently in euery Citie Monasterie and Nunrie howe the buildinges and ornaments of the Church bee kept and make diligent inquirie for the conuersation of all persons there and howe that which wee commaunded is refourmed in their reading singing and other disciplines pertayning to the rules of eccelsiasticall order Certaine Chapters as of incestuous mariages Churches that lacke their right honour or haue beene lately spoyled and if there bee any other ecclesiasticall or common wealth matters worthie to bee redressed which for shortnes of tyme wee coulde not nowe finish wee thinke good to differre them vntill by Gods helpe and the aduise of our faythfull Counsellers oportunitie serue vs to determine the same There bee sixe score chapters besides these recorded by the same writer of the lawes that Charles made touching ecclesiasticall Persons and causes which I for breuitie sake omitte leauing you to consider of them when you see your time Charles by these publike lawes appointed what doctrine should be preached what abuses in the Lords supper amended what parts of diuine seruice pronounced by the Priest and people together with one voyce what bookes should bee read in the Church what holy dayes obserued what memories of Saints abolished what woorkes on Sonday prohibited hee prescribed the Bishops their dueties the Priestes their charge the Monkes their rules hee directed thee keeping of Synodes electing and translating of Bishoppes ordering and placing of Clerkes paying and employing of Tythes decided what shoulde become of their mariages that were taken away by force or affianced before to others forbad the burying of dead corses in the Church banished Sorcerie Simonie Usurie Periurie last of all vndertooke that if any thing were wanting which needed reformation in causes ecclesiasticall it shoulde bee supplyed of him at his leasure If Charles had the regiment of monasticall profession episcopall iurisdiction canonicall conuersation if hee did I say medle with redressing errors in fayth abuses in sacramentes disorders in diuine seruice superstition in funerals othes charmes and such other matters as by the purport of these chapters it is euident he did what causes can you deuise more spirituall than these Will you permitte these thinges of most importance to the Princes power and except other of lesse moment That were notorious follie You must either inuest them with all or exclude them first from the weightiest For if they be gouernours of the greatest ecclesiasticall affayres much more doth their authoritie stretch to the smalest Againe these Lawes of Charles which amount to the number of eight skore and three what do they lacke of a full direction for all matters needing reformation in the Church of God Any thing or nothing If nothing then this prince gouerned ordered al ecclesiasticall causes If any thing that Charles him selfe assureth vs he would determine when occasion serued Choose whether you wil Charles either way shewed the lawful power of Princes to direct establish all thinges requisite to the faith and Church of Christ. For what hee promised aduisedly to doe no doubt hee ment it shoulde and thought it might bee iustly perfourmed So did Ludouike his sonne and Lotharius his nephew the next Emperours after him whose proceedings declare what account they made of these chapters and with what diligence they put them in executiō The monuments of so good Princes I may not ouerslip with silence their deeds did then profit the Church of God their wordes will nowe profite vs. Thus did Ludouike and Lotharius his sonne write to the Bishoppes and magistrates of their Empire You haue all I doubt not either seene or heard that our father and our progenitors after they were chosen by God to this place MADE THIS THEIR PRINCIPAL STVDIE howe the honour of Gods holy Church and the state of their kingdome might bee decently kept and wee for our part following their example since it hath pleased God to appoint vs that we should haue the care of his holy church and this Realme are very desirous so long as wee liue to labour earnestly for three speciall points I meane to defende exalt and honour Gods holy Church and his ministers in such sort as is fit to preserue peace and do iustice among the people AND THOVGH THE CHIEFE OF THIS MINISTERIE CONSIST IN OVR PERSON
You must bee subiect for conscience sake If the Saintes must bee subiect to Princes ergo the Church for the Church on earth is nothing els but the collection of Saintes And if euery soule that is euery man must bee subiect howe can the Church consisting of men bee exempted But if by the Church you meane the preceptes and promises giftes and graces of God preached in the Church and poured on the Church Princes must humbly obey them and reuerently receiue them as well as other priuate men So that Prophets Apostles Euangelists and all other buylders of Christes Church as touching their Persons bee subiect to the Princes power mary the word of trueth in their mouthes and the Seales of grace in their handes because they are of God not of themselues they be farre aboue the Princes calling and regiment and in those cases kinges and Queenes if they will bee saued must submit themselues to Gods euerlasting trueth and testament as well as the meanest of their people but this neither abateth the power which God hath giuen them ouer all men nor maketh them thrall to the Popes iudiciall processe to bee forced and punished at his pleasure and therefore this notwithstanding Princes bee supreme that is superiour to all and subiect to none but onely to God Phi. Who euer taught before you that Princes were subiect only to God Theo. The Church of Christ from the beginning Colimus Imperatorem vt hominem a Deo secundum solo Deo minorem Wee reuerence the Emperour sayth Tertullian as a man next vnto God and inferiour only to God Againe Deum esse solum in cuius solius potestate sunt a quo sunt secundi post quem primi ante omnes super omnes Deos hommes It is onely God in whose power alone Princes are in comparison with him they bee second and after him first afore all and ouer all both Gods and men So likewise Optatus Super Imperatorem non est nisi solus Deus qui fecit Imperatorem Aboue the Empe-rour is none but onely GOD who made the Emperour And Chrysostome Parem vllum super terram non habet The Emperour hath no peere on earth much lesse any superiour And that Princes are aboue all Saint Paul is cleare Let euery soule bee subiect to the Superiour powers All must bee subiect to them ergo they bee superiour to all and superiour to all is supreme Chrysostome calleth the Emperour The highest and head of all men vpon earth Iustinian sayth the Emperour hath receiued a common gouernement and Principalitie ouer all men Ambrose sayth of Theodosius that hee had power ouer all men And Gregorie as you hearde affirmeth that Power is giuen to Princes from heauen ouer all men not onely Souldiers but also Priestes And since I before concluded and you confessed all men were they Monkes Priestes Bishoppes or whatsoeuer to bee subiect to the Princes power and authoritie both in causes ecclesiasticall and temporall why shoulde that nowe bee reuoked or doubted Phi. I neuer did nor will confesse Princes to bee supreme For he that iudgeth on earth in Christes steade is aboue them all Theo. You come nowe to the quicke This very clayme was the cause why the woorde supreme was added to the othe for that the Bishoppe of Rome taketh vppon him to commaund and depose Princes as their lawfull and superiour iudge To exclude this wicked presumption wee teach that Princes be supreme rulers wee meane subiect to no superiour iudge to giue a reason of their doings but onely to God Phi. This you teach but this you can not prooue Theo. It forceth not what wee can doe The burden in this case to prooue is yours and not ours You say Princes bee subiect to the Popes Consistorie wee say they bee not Must wee prooue the negatiue or must you rather make good your affirmatiue Againe Saint Paul auoucheth with vs that euery soule is subiect to their power You contradict those woordes and say the Pope is not subiect but Superiour to Princes The generall in precise tearmes concludeth for vs you except the Pope must you not prooue your exception Phi. You be loth to proue you knowe the weakenes of your side Theo. You crosse the plaine wordes of the holy Ghost and woulde put vs to refute your fansies Phi. Wee say Christs Uicar is not included in those woordes Theo. Wee say the generall includeth euery particular Phi. How could Paul make Peter a subiect to Princes when Peter was none Theo. Why shoulde not Peter bee subiect to Princes when God himselfe pronounced by the mouth of Paul that euery soule was subiect to them Phi. Who euer constred S. Pauls words so besides you Theo. The Church of Christ neuer constred them otherwise Peter and the Bishoppes of Rome for the first three hundred yeeres did they not patiently submit themselues as subiects to those punishments and torments which heathen Princes inflicted on other Christians Phi. In deede they were martyred for the most part by the rage of Infidels that knewe them not Theo. And the Christians that knewe them neuer tooke armes to defend thē against the rage of Infidels but thought them subiect to higher powers by force of S. Pauls words as well as all other Bishoppes were Phi. They might not resist though they were wrongfully vexed Theo. And why might they not but because they were subiect by Gods ordinance to the Princes power Unlawfull violence might well bee resisted Phi. Christian Princes were neuer superiours to the Bishoppes of Rome Theo. Syr your courage is more than your cunning The Bishops of Rome for eight hundred and fiftie yeres after Christ that we can directly proue were duetifull and obedient subiects to Christian Emperours Phi. Are you not ashamed to tell such a tale Theo. Will you be ashamed of your error if I proue it a trueth Phi. Shewe mee that and I will yeeld the rest Theo. The rest is alreadie proued and this shall be presently shewed I might alleage that after the Romane Emperours began to professe the name of Christ Iulius and Liberius were banished by Constantius Bonifacius the first by Honorius Syluerius and Vigilius by Iustinian Martyne the first by Constantine the thirde and diuers other Popes by sundrie Princes but that I will skippe come to the submission of Leo the fourth made to Ludouike the West Emperour with these wordes If we haue done any thing otherwise than well and not dealt vprightly with those that are vnder vs wee will amend all that is amisse by the iudgement of your highnes beseeching your excellencie to sende for the better triall of these surmises such as in the feare of God may narrowly sift not onely the matters infourmed but all our doings great and smal as well as if your Maiestie were present so that by lawfull examination all may bee finished and nothing left vndiscussed or vndetermined In all things great and small the Pope
Father or Councell for 800. yeares that proueth the Pope superiour to the Prince Bring somwhat to that end or else say you can not and I am answered Phi. I proue the church superior to the Prince which is enough to confute the supreme power that you giue to Princes Theo. And what for the Pope Shall he be superiour to Princes or no Phi. We wil talke of that an other time we be now reasoning of the church which I trust you will grant to be superiour to Princes God saide to the Church The nation and kingdom that will not serue thee shall perish And kinges shall serue thee Theo. This is right the trade of your Apologie to pretende the church and meane the Pope You sawe you were neuer able to proue the Popes vsurped power ouer Princes and therefore you thought it best to put a visarde of the Church vppon the Popes face and to bring him in that sort disguised to the stage to deceiue the simple with the sounde and shewe of the Church And for that cause your fourth chapter neuer nameth the Pope but stil vrgeth The regiment of the church The iudgement of the church The churches tribunall conuerted kingdomes must serue the church and euerie where the church the church and when the Church is confessed to bee superiour to Princes you set vppe the Pope as heade of the Church to take from her all the superioritie power and authoritie which before you claymed for her and so you make the Church but a cloke-bagge to carrie the Popes titles after him but staie your wisedomes the Church may bee superiour and yet the Pope subiect to Princes Kinges may serue the Church and yet commaund your holie father and his gymmoes the parish Priestes of Rome for their turning winding euery way iustly called Cardinals Phi. Can Princes bee supreme and the church their superiour Theo. Why not Phi. If any thing bee superiour Princes bee not supreme Theo. That I denie The Scriptures bee superiour to Princes and yet they supreme the Sacramentes bee likewise aboue them and yet that hindereth not their supremacie Truth Grace Faith Prayer and other Ghostlie vertues bee higher than all earthly states and all this notwithstanding Princes may bee supreme gouernours of their kingdomes and Countries Phi. You cauill nowe you shoulde compare persons with persons and not thinges with persons there may bee thinges aboue Princes and yet they supreme but if anie persons bee superiour then can they not bee supreme Theo. No The Sainctes in heauen and Angels of God bee persons superiour to Princes and yet may Princes bee supreme Phi. Why Theophilus these bee wrangling quiddities for shame leaue them The Sainctes bee superiour in perfection and dignitie but not in externall vocation and authoritie Theo. I like that you saie but if you looke backe you shall see Philander that you giue iudgement against your selfe Phi. Against my selfe Why so Theo. The Church is superiour to Princes for those very respectes which I nowe repeated First because the Saincts in heauen which are part of the church in happines perfection and dignitie bee many degrees aboue worldely states Secondly though the members of the Church bee subiect and obedient to Princes yet the thinges contayned in the Church and bestowed on the Church by God him-selfe I meane the light of his worde the working of his Sacramentes the giftes of his grace and fruites of his spirite bee farre superiour to all Princes Nowe view your consequent The Church in respect of her members in heauen and graces on earth is aboue the Prince ergo the Prince is not supreme but subiect to the Pope This is worse than wrangling You confound things and persons heauen and earth God and man to beare out the Popes pride Phi. You stretch the name of the church whither you list Theo. I may better stretch it to these thinges which I specifie than you restraine it to one onelie man as you doe But why doe I stretch the church farther than I should The Sainctes in heauen bee they not members of the church Phi. They bee membees of the church which is in heauen Theo. And the church in heauen is it an other church from this on earth or the same with it Phi. I thinke it bee the same Theo. You must not goe by thoughtes Sainct Paul saith You are of the same citie with the Sainctes and Ierusalem which is aboue is no straunger to vs but the mother of vs all Cum ipsis Angelis sumus vna ciuitas Dei cuius pars in nobis peregrinatur pars in illis opitulatur Wee saith Austen are one and the same citie of God with the Angels whereof part wandereth on earth in vs part in them assisteth vs. And againe The true Sion and true Ierusalem is euerlasting in heauen which is the mother of vs all She hath begotten vs shee hath nurced vs in part a stranger on earth in a greater part remaining in heauen For the soules of the godly that be dead be not seuered from the church which euen now is the kingdome of Christ. Certaynely Christ hath but one bodie which is his church and of that body since the Sainctes be the greater and worthier part they must bee counted of the same Church with vs. Phi. I stick not at that so much as at the next where you make the word and Sacramentes togither with their effectes and fruites to be parts of the church Theo. I do not say they be members of the Church but thinges required in the church without the which we can neither become nor continue the members of Christ. In a naturall bodie the spirits and faculties be no members yet without them the members haue neither life motion sense nor action So in the mysticall bodie of Christ the members be men but the meanes and helpes to make vs and keepe vs the members of Christ are the word and Sacraments without the which we can neither be planted quickned nor nourished in Christ. For the members be dead if they liue not by faith if they grow not by grace if they cleaue not by loue to their heade and moue at his will by obedience And therefore these thinges though they bee not members yet they bee ioyntes and sinewes vaines and vessels that giue life groeth strength and state to the bodie of Christ which is his church and may iustly bee called the principall powers or partes of his bodie Phi. Powers if you will but not partes Theo. As though the powers of the soule were not partes of the soule Phi. Not properly partes but powers and faculties Theo. What call you partes Phi. Whereof the whole consisteth Theo. And since without these there can be no Church ergo these be partes of the church Phi. You take partes very largely Theo. No larger than I should The foundation of the house is it not a part of the house Phi. Yes a chiefe
part Theo. Faith is the foundation of the church why then should not faith be a part of the church Phi. The Church consisteth of persons not of thinges Men are the church saith S. Augustine Againe The church that is the people of God throughout all nations Theo. I doe not deny the church to bee many times taken for the faithfull on earth but I adde that the graces mysteries and word of God bee contained in the Church and without them the Persons are no Church Our bodies and soules doe not make vs members of Christ but our faith and obedience By Baptisme not by birth doe we Put on Christ and grace not meates establish our heartes They bee the sonnes of God that he led by the spirit of God And if any man haue not the spirit of Christ the same is no member of his Phi. All this is true Theo. The church then consisteth not of men but of faithfull men and they bee the Church not in respect of flesh and blood which came from earth but of trueth and grace which came from heauen Phi. I graunt Theo. Ergo the perfection of Gods giftes the communion of his graces and direction of his word are the verie life and soule of his Church so within the compasse of the church are comprised not onely the persons that bee earthly but also the things that be heauenly whereby God gathereth preserueth and sanctifieth his Church Phi. What doth this helpe you Theo. That when wee saie with S. Ambrose Imperator bonus intra Ecclesiam non supra Ecclesiam est A good Emperour is within the Church not aboue the Church you can conclude nothing out of these words against vs. Phi. Can we not If good Princes bee not aboue the church ergo they be not aboue the prelats pillours of the church Theo. That is no consequent Phi. Why not Theo. By the Church are ment sometimes the places somtimes the persons sometime the things that be cheefely required in the Church Of the place S. Austen saith We cal the Church the temple where the people which are trewly called the Church are conteined that by the name of the Church I meane the people which is conteined we may signifie the place which conteyneth And againe The Church is the place where the Church is assembled for men are the Church The Church as it is taken for persons hath a triple distinction First the Church of glorious and elect Angels and men Ecclesia deorsum ecclesia sursum Ecclesia deorsum in omnibus fidelibus ecclesia sursum in omnibus Angelis There is a Church beneath there is a Church aboue The Church beneath in all the faithfull the Church aboue in all the Angels And againe The right order of confession required that in our creed next to the three persons in Trinity should stand the Church as next to the owner his howse to God his tēple to the builder his citie which must here be taken for the whole not only that part which is a pilgrime on earth but also for that part which abiding in heauen hath euer since it was created cleauen vnto God This part in the holy Angels persisteth in blessednes and helpeth as it ought her other part wandring in earth The temple of God therfore is the holy Church I mean the vniuersall in heauen and earth Secondly the Church is the people of God through out all nations ioyning reckning al the Saints which before his cōming liued in this world The whole Church euerie where diffused is the bodie of Christ and he is the head of it Not only the faithful which are now but also they that were before vs and they that shall be after vs to the end of the world they al pertaine to his bodie The Church is the body of Christ not the church which is here or there but that which is here and euery where throughout the world neither that Church which is at this time but from Abel vnto those which shall hereafter bee borne and beleeue in Christ euen till the end the whole companie of saintes belonging to one Citie which is the bodie of Christ and whereof he is the head Thirdly the Church may bee limited by time and place as the particular Churches of Rome Corinth Ephesus and such like Behold saith Austen in the Church there be Churches which be members of that one Church dispersed throughout the world There be many Churches yet one Church and in that sort many that there is but one Somtimes the church importeth besides the persons y◠things in which those persons must communicate before they can be members of the Church as when the church is called the kingdome citie and howse of God whereby wee learne that it is furnished not onely with persons but with all thinges needefull for the seruants citizens and people of God to the conuerting and sauing of their soules In that sense saith S. Paul The kingdome of God is righteousnes peace and ioy in the holy Ghost meaning these be fruits and effects of Gods kingdome which our Sauiour threatned to take from the Iewes The kingdome of God shall bee taken from you and giuen to a nation that shall bring forth the fruites thereof shewing that when the woorde of trueth and seales of grace are taken from vs wee cease to bee the people and Church of God Christ raigneth in his Church by his word and spirit without these men are not the Church An earthly citie must haue vnitie societie regiment sufficiencie for an earthly state the number of men doeth not make a citie if these thinges want Howe much more must the citie of God haue abundance of al thinges profiting to eternall life S. Austen sayth of the house of God which is the Church It is founded by beleeuing erected by hoping perfected by louing noting these three to bee the maine partes in the building of Gods house It is playner than that longer proofe shall neede If wee woulde define the Church wee must comprehend not onely men but other thinges also which may seuer the Church from those that are not the Church and those thinges that are required to the explication are wee say contained in the appellation of the Church The Church is not simply a number of men for Infidels heretikes and hypocrites are not the Church but of men regenerate by the woord and Sacraments truely seruing God according to the Gospell of his sonne and sealed by the spirite of grace against the day of redemption Men thus qualified are the Church and the giftes and graces of GOD that so qualifie them bee not onely the iewels and ornaments wherewith the spouse of Christ is decked but euen the seede and milke whereby like a mother shee conceyueth and nourceth her children The church our mother saith Austen conceiued vs of Christ nourished yea nourisheth vs with the milke of faith Shee conceiueth by the Sacraments
For Noli te extollere sed esto Deo subditus exalt not thy selfe but bee subiect to God you say Exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure and suppresse the rest which should declare when a Prince exalteth himselfe aboue his measure to wit when he is not subiect to God The next wordes which you bring When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishops are not found Ibidem as you quote them that is Epistola 33 ad sororem but Epistola 32 ad Valentinianum Imperatorem And In causa fider In a matter of faith which Ambrose addeth you leaue out in the first sentence though you double it at y◠latter end These scapes I will winke at and come to the words themselues Thinke not thy selfe to haue any Emperial right ouer diuine things Neither do we say Princes haue for an emperial right is to commaund alter and abrogate what they think good which is lawful neither for men nor Angels in diuine matters Palaces are for Princes and Churches for Priests this was truely saide if you know not the reason Churches were first appointed for publike praier and preaching which belong to the Priests and not to the Princes function And for that cause Bishops were to teach Princes which was the right faith Princes were not to teach the Bishops much lesse to professe thēselues iudges of trueth as Valentinian did when he said Ego debeo iudicare I ought to bee iudge whether Christ be God or no for that was the question between the Arrians and Ambrose and that was the word which S. Ambrose stoutly but wisely refused When we say that Princes be iudges of faith bring S. Ambrose against vs and spare not but we bee farther off from that impietie to make men iudges ouer God than you be Doe you not make the Prince iudge of faith Theo. You know we do not Phi. Produce not vs for witnesses we know no such thing Theo. Your own acts shall depose for vs if your mouthes will not If we make Princes to bee iudges of faith why were so many of vs consumed not long since in England with fier and fagot for disliking that which the Prince and the Pope affirmed to be faith Why at this day doe you kill and murder elsewhere so many thousands of vs for reiecting that as false religion which the kings princes of your side professe for true If wee make Princes iudges why do we rather loose our liues than stand to their iudgemēts Your stakes that yet be warm your swords that yet be bloodie do witnes for vs and against you that in matters of faith we make neither Prince nor Pope to be iudge God is not subiect to the iudgemēt of man no more is his trueth Phi. What power then do you giue to Princes Theo. What power so euer we giue them we giue them no power to pronounce which is trueth Phi. What do you then Theo. Neuer aske that you know Haue we spent so many words and you now to seeke what we defend But you see S. Ambrose maketh nothing for you And therefore you picke a quarell to the question Phi. S. Ambrose would not yeeld Valentinian the Emperour so much as a Church in Millan and when hee was willed to appeare before the Emperour in his consistorie or els depart the Citie he would do neither Theo. You care not to fit your purpose though you make S. Ambrose a sturdie rebell You would fayne find a president to colour your headynes against the Prince but in Ambrose you can not his answere to Valentinian was stout but lawfull constant but Christian as the circumstances of the facts will declare Valentinian a yong Prince incensed by Iustina his mother and other Eunuches about him willed Ambrose to come and dispute with Auxentius the Arrian in his consistorie before him and hee would bee iudge whether of their two religions were truest and which of them twaine shoulde bee Bishop of Millan Auxentius or Ambrose otherwise to depart whither he would To this Ambrose made a sober and duetifull answere in defence of himselfe and his cause and gaue it in writing to Valentinian shewing him amongst other things that he was yong in yeres a nouice in faith not yet baptised rather to learne than to iudge of bishops that the consistorie was no fit place for a priest to dispute in where the hearers should be Iewes on gētiles so scoffe at Christ the Emperour himselfe partial as appeared by his Law published before that time to impugne the truth As for departing if he were forced he would not resist but with his consent he could not relinquish his church to saue his life wtout great sinne And because Auxentius his companions vrged this that the Emperour ought to be iudge in matters of faith Saint Ambrose followeth and refelleth that word as repugnant not onely to the diuine Scriptures but also to the Romane lawes Conclusus vndique ad versutiam patrum suorum confugit de Imperatore vult inuidiam commouere dicens iudicare debere adolescentē catechumenū sacrae lectionis ignarum in consistorio iudicare Auxentius driuen to his shiftes hath recourse to the craft of his forefathers seeking to procure vs enuie by the Emperours name and sayth the Prince ought to bee iudge though hee bee yong not yet baptized and ignorant of the Scriptures and that in the Consistorie And to the Emperour himselfe Your father a man of riper yeeres sayde It is not for mee to bee iudge betweene Bishoppes doeth your clemencie nowe at these yeeres say I ought to bee iudge And hee baptized in Christ thought himselfe vnable for the weight of so great a iudgement doeth your clemencie that hath not yet obtayned to the Sacrament of baptisme chalenge the iudgement of fayth whereas yet you knowe not the mysteries of fayth No man shoulde thinke mee stubburne when I stand on this which your father of famous memorie not onely pronounced in woordes but also confirmed by his Lawes that in a cause of fayth or ecclesiasticall order hee shoulde be iudge that was both like in function and ruled by the same kind of right For those be the words of the Rescript his meaning was hee woulde haue Priests to bee iudges of Priests Then follow the wordes which you cite When euer didst thou heare most clement Emperour in a cause of fayth that Laymen iudged of bishops Shall wee so bend for flatterie that we should forget the right or duetie of Priests and what God hath bequeathed to me I should commit to others If a Bishop must be taught by a Layman what to follow let a Lay man then dispute or speake in the Church and a Bishop be an auditor let the Bishop learne of a Layman But surely if we suruey the course of the diuine Scriptures or auncient times who is there that can deny but in a cause of faith in a
not admit which they said against others Hee euer doth that which the Arrians woulde haue and they againe saie that which hee liketh And whereas the Bishops in those dayes were wont to be lawfully chosen by the people of the place and sufficiently examined and allowed by other Bishops adioyning and openly created in the church Constantius in steede of the church would haue his palace succeed and for the multitude of people and right of assemblies to elect hee commaunded three Eunuches to bee present and three of his spies or prolers for you can not call them Bishops that they sixe in his palace might create one Felix a Bishop And noting what manner of Bishops the Emperour and his Eunuches made hee saith In illorum locum iuuenes libidinosos Ethnicos ne catechismo quidem imbutos necnon digamos de maximis criminibus malè audientes modò aurum darent veluti emptores è foro ad Episcopatus summisere They sent in their places that were banished yong men leacherous persons Ethnickes not so much as taught the first principles of faith hauing two wifes and spotted with enormous crimes so they would giue mony as cheepe-men out of a market The furious violence that was vsed in the time of Constantius to driue men to participate with Arrians not onely by imprisonmentes and banishmentes but by chaining whipping scalding with fire trampling vnder feete stoning choking and secret murdering such as refused without all respect of vocation age or sexe was so lamentable that no christian hart can read it without teares and it is so largely described and pithily disproued by Hilarie and Athanasius that no man except he be blinder than a bitle can doubt whether Constantius were a wilfull tyrant in the church of God or no. Peruse the places and you shall find proofes enough of that which I say I proclaime saith Hilarie that to thee Constantius which I woulde to Nero Decius and Maximinian thou fightest against God thou ragest against the Church thou doest persecute the Sainctes thou hatest the Preachers of Christ and ouerthrowest Religion a tyrant not in humane but in diuine thinges a newe kinde of enemie to Christ the forerunner of Antichrist I repeate nothing rather than thy doings in the Church because I would open no other tyrannie but that which thou vsest against God And Athanasius shewing the reasons why hee calleth Constantius Antichrist Who seeing or hearing saith he these thinges who considering the rage of these wicked ones and so great iniustice would not deepelie sigh at it Who hereafter will dare to call Constantius a Christian and not rather the image of Antichrist For which of Antichristes markes doth hee lacke Or what cause is there why Constantius should not in euerie respect bee counted Antichrist Haue not the Arrians and Ethnickes as it were by his precept vsed their sacrifices and blasphemies against Christ in the great church at Caesarium in Aegypt As a Giant he exalteth himselfe against the most high and hath inuented waies to change the◠Lawe of God breaking the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and inuerting the customes of the church And since he is cloathed with Christianitie and entereth into holy places there standing and wasting the churches Abrogating the Canons and by force compelling that his pleasure may preuaile who at any time will affirme that these dayes are peaceable to christians and not rather that this is a persecution and such a persecution as was neuer before and no man after shall make the like except that sonne of perdition which is the true Antichrist Howe thinke you did not these Fathers reproue Constantius for changeing the faith oppressing Synods corrupting iudgementes infringing the Canons barbarons enforcing the christians and shortly for subiecting all to his will and violence Phi. I knowe they make mention of these things but yet they reproue him generally for intermedling with Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. I hope they reproued him for that he did Phi. The case is cleare they coulde not reproue him for that hee did not Theo. These things which I last rehearsed Constantius did as I proue by their witnesse that chiefly rebuked him ergo Constantius was reproued of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius for these thinges that is for playing the tyrant in diuine matters or as you call them in causes Ecclesiasticall Phi. But Osius saith Medle not O Emperour in causes Ecclesiastical nor do thou commaund vs in that kind but leaue such things to vs rather Theo. You were answered before but that you wil neuer be satisfied Osius dissuadeth Constantius from vsing his absolute power obstinate wil in those things that were then in question betwixt the Christians Arians He saw the manifolde and excessiue disorders of Constantius in forcing Synodes of Bishops by terror and violence to bow at his becke in making his palace a consistorie for their causes and there iudging what his Eunuches would in dissoluing the ordinances of Christ and his Apostles and doing all thinges against the Rules of the church and therefore had good cause to saie Ne te misceas ecclesiasticis neque nobis in hoc genere praecipe sed potius ea a nobis disce Enterpose not thy selfe as thou doest O Emperour in Ecclesiasticall matters neither commaund vs in this kinde but learne such things rather of vs and not as you say leaue such things rather to vs. God hath cōmitted the Empire to thee to vs the things of the church as he that enuieth thine Empire contradicteth the ordinance of God so take thou heede least drawing vnto thy selfe the things of the church thou be guilty of great sinne It is written Giue vnto Caesar that which is Caesars vnto God that which is Gods It is therefore neither lawfull for vs to holde a kingdome on earth neither hast thou power O Prince ouer sacrifices sacred things These words put a difference between the function of Priestes Princes shew that neither may intrude with ech others charge which we confesse with a good wil. But as Priestes must teach truth and conuict error that is their office so princes must commaund for truth and punish error because publike authoritie to commaund and punish is not the Priestes but the Princes right where-with Priestes must not meddle Phi. Yet the Prince must learne at the Priestes hande which is truth and which error Theo. If the Priest teach truth and the Prince reiect it the Prince shal answere to God for the cōtempt of truth but if the priest teach error in steed of truth a godly prince hath lawful power to banish the doctrine punish the teacher Phi. And if the Prince saie that truth is error error is truth shall truth be banished and the Priest punished vpon the Princes saying Theo. And what if the Priest saie that light is darkenesse and darkenesse light shall Princes be excused before God for
them all obedience with armed violence to take their swords from them but thereof more hereafter In the meane time your argument is very foolish Priestes must not deliuer the Sacramentes but on such conditions as God hath limited ergo Priests be superiour to Princes You might haue concluded ergo God is superiour to them both in that he prescribeth how the one shal deliuer the other take the Seales of his grace but for the Priest no such illation can be made For were you Porter in any Princes palace and commaunded that no man Noble nor other shoulde enter the Court with weapon woulde you thence conclude your selfe superiour to all the Nobles and counsellours of the Land because you might not suffer thē to come within the gates except they first lay their swords aside or would you rather excuse your selfe that the Princes precept being streit and you a seruaunt you could not choose but do your dutie and put them in minde of your Lord and masters pleasure Phi. Our case is not like The. You say truth You haue not so much reason to make Priestes superiour to Princes as this Officer hath to prefer himselfe before all other persons Princes haue soueraign power ouer the goods liues bodies of Priestes Nobles haue not ouer the meanest attendant in the Princes Court Princes must be obeyed or endured with meekenesse and reuerence offer they neuer so hard dealing to their Preachers and Pastours That submission no man oweth to any subiect be he neuer so Noble And therefore euerie seruant in the Princes house hath better cause to aduance himselfe before al the Nobles of the Realme than you haue to set the Priest aboue the Prince whom God himselfe hath pronounced superiour to the Priestes and to whom he will haue euerie soule bee they Monkes Priestes or Bishoppes to be subiect with al submission duetie Much lesse is this a warrant for you to depose Princes and to pursue them with armes against the preceptes of God against the generall and continuall obedience and order of Christs Church as you shal perceiue in place where for this present go on with your absurd lies I shoulde haue said absurdities Phi. It derogateth from Christes Priesthood which both in his owne person and in the Church is aboue his kingly dignitie Theo. Call you this a derogation from Christes Priesthood if the Pope may not tread Princes vnder his feet Your Seminaries must needes be famous that coine vs such conclusions Phi. Neuer mocke at our Seminaries you shall finde them too well furnished for your stoare Theo. So wee thinke your learning is so strange it passeth our intelligence Wee fooles conceiue not how these thinges hang togither For first what meane you by this The Priesthood of Christ in his owne person is aboue his kingly dignitie He is king of glorie in that he is the sonne of God can you name any thing in Christ that is aboue his diuine dignitie Your doctrine is verie curious if it be not dangerous The glorie of the sonne of God as hee is owner and ruler of all thinges in heauen and earth hath no title nor name aboue it As a Priest he purged our sinnes in humilitie as a king hee nowe doeth and euer shall raigne in the highest degree of celestiall and euerlasting glorie His Priesthood washed our vncleannesse in this life His kingdome placeth and preserueth men and Angels in perfect and eternall blisse If you speake this in respect of vs that the Priesthood of Christ which washeth our sinnes and saueth vs from the wrath to come is more comfortable and accceptable to our weake consciences by reason of our guiltinesse and daily transgressions than the power wherewith hee subdueth his enemies besides the straungenesse of your speach that his Priestood should bee aboue his kinglie dignitie in his owne person note the losenesse of your argument The Priesthood of Christ in fauour and mercie to vs ward is aboue his power ergo the Prince must be subiect to the Pope May not we much rather conclude Christ cōpelleth punisheth as a king not as a Priest ergo power to commaund punish belongeth to the kingdom not to the Priesthood that is to the Magistrate not to the minister Phi. It diuideth which is a matter of much importance the state of the Catholike Church and the holie communion or societie of all Christian men in the same into as manie partes not communicant one with an other nor holding one of an other as there be worldlie kingdoms differing by Customs Lawes manners ech from other which is of much pernicious sequele and against the verie natiue quality of the most perfect coniunction society vnitie and intercourse of the whole Church euery Prouince and Person thereof togither Theo. It is a most pernicious fansie to thinke the communion of Christes Church dependeth vpon the Popes person or regimēt and that diuerse nations and countries differing by customes lawes maners so they hold one the same rule of faith in the band of peace can not be parts of the Catholike Church communicant one with an other perfectly vnited in spirite and truth ech to other And fie on your follies that racke your Creede rob Christ of his honor and the Church of all her comfort and securitie whiles you make the vnitie and societie of Christes members to consist in obedience to the Bishop of Rome and not in coherence with the sonne of God The communion of Saintes and neere dependaunce of the Godly ech of other and all of their heade standeth not of externall rites customes and manners as you woulde fashion out a Church obseruing the Popes Canons and deseruing his pardones as his deuote and zealous children but in beleeuing the same trueth tasting of the same grace resting on the same hope calling on the same God reioycing in the same spirite whereby they bee sealed sanctified and preserued against the daie of redemption And why may not Christians in all kingdomes countries haue this communion and fellowshippe though they lacke your holy fathers beads blessinges and such like bables To what ende you alleadge S. Augustine in that place which you quote we cannot so much as coniecture you must speake plainly what you would haue we be not bounde to make search for your meaning As for the communion of the Catholike Church it is not broken by the varietie and diuersitie of rites customes Lawes and fashions which many places and Countries haue different ech from others except they be repugnant to faith or good manners as S. Augustine largely debateth in his epistle to Ianuarius and Irineus whē the bishop of Rome would haue cut the East Churches from the communion of the West for obseruing Easter after an other maner order than their brethrē did sharpely reproued him and shewed him that Polycarpus and Anicetus dissenting in the same case Communionem
father and his Cardinals were eighteene yeres prouoking working the Princes States adherent to them to spill christian blood to make hauocke of al places persons that were not â—â—â—dient to the Bishop of Rome yet you count it some great absurditie for vs to reiect this Councell as not generall Phi. You acknowledge no subiection to Councels or Tribunals abroad all other Bishops Patriarkes Apostles Christ all because they were be forrainers not hauing iurisdiction or sufficieÌ„t authoritie to define against English Sectaries or Errors And this when a Realme or Prince is in error taketh away all meanes of reducing theÌ„ to the truth againe Theo. To Christ his Apostles we acknowledge more subiection than you doe We honor adore him as the true son of God equall with his father in authority maiesty We make him no forrainer to this Realm as you do but professe him to be the only master redeemer ruler of his church as wel in this as in all other Nations To whom Princes Preachers are but seruaÌ„ts the preachers to propose the Princes to execute his will commandements whom all that wil be saued must beleeue obey aboue against all Councels Tribunals be they regall or papall if they dissent from his word The preachings writings of the Apostles we receiue with greater reuereÌ„ce exacter obedience than you do We giue no man leaue to dispence against theÌ„ which your law witnesseth of the Pope Papa coÌ„tra ApostoluÌ„ dispensat The Pope dispeÌ„seth against the Apostle We neuer said as Pigghius saith The Apostles wrote certaine things not that their writinges should bee aboue our faith and religion but rather vnder Wee confesse The Apostles were men allowed of God to whom the Gospel should be committed therefore we receiue the word from theÌ„ not as the word of man but as it is in deed the word of God assuring our selues it is the power of God to saue all that beleeue detesting your erronious and heynous presumptions that take vppon you to adde alter diminish and dispence with that which the spirite of Christ spake as well by the pennes as mouthes of the Apostles To Councels such as the Church of Christ was wont by the helpe of her religious Princes to call we owe communion and brotherly concord so long as they make no breach in faith nor in christian charitie subiection and seruitude wee owe them none the blessed Angels professe themselues to bee fellowe seruantes with the Sainctes on earth what are you then that with your Tribunals and iurisdictions woulde bee Lordes and Rulers ouer Christes inheritance Peter saith Cyprian whom the Lord made first choice of on whom he built his church when Paul after stroue with him for Circumcision did not take vpon him nor chalenge any thing insolentlie or arrogantly nor aduaunce him-selfe as Primate and one to whom the nouices and puinees shoulde bee subiect And as it were in open defiance of your Tribunals and iurisdictions which Stephen the Bishoppe of Rome began then to exercise he directeth the Bishops assembled in a Councell at Carthage on this wise It resteth that of this matter wee speake euerie one of vs what we thinke iudging no man nor remouing any man from the communion though he be not of our minde For none of vs maketh himselfe Bishop of Bishops or by terrour like a tyrant forceth his collegues to yeeld him obedience whether they will or no considering euerie Bishop by reason of his Episcopal power and freedom hath the rule of his owne iudgement as one that can not bee iudged of an other nor hee him-selfe iudge an other but let vs al expect the tribunal or iudgement of our Lord Iesus Christ which only solely hath power to set vs in the gouernment of his Church and to iudge of our actes And because you be so earnest with vs for subiection to Tribunals abroade to bee plaine with you it is boyes plaie before you name them or proue that wee owe them any subiection to skore it vppe as an absurditie that wee acknowledge none vnto them and yet least you shoulde thinke vs the first that refused Tribunals abroade you shall see that ancient and worthy fathers haue done the like before vs. What Tribunals abroade did Cyprian and the 80. Bishoppes at Carthage with him acknowledge when hee saide as you hearde Christus vnus solus habet potestatem de actu nostro iudicandi Christ only and none else hath authoritie to iudge of our act And agaiâ—e Episcopus ab alâ—o iudicari non potest cum non ipse nec alterum iudicare A Bishop may not be iudged of others nor iudge others Expectemus vniuersi iudicium Christi Let vs all both abroad and at home expect the iudgement of Christ. What Tribunals abroade did Polycrates and the Bishops of Asia with him acknowledge when hee replied to the Bishoppe of Rome threatning to excommunicate him and the rest Non turbaborijs quae terrendi gratia obijciuntur I passe not for these threats that are offered to terrifie me What Tribunals abroad did S. Aug. the 216. African Bishops acknowledge when they decreed that none Appealing ouer the Sea to Tribunals abroad should be receiued to the communion within Africa And when they repelled the Bishop of Rome laboring to place his Legates a latere within their Prouince willed him nâ—t to bring Fumosum seculi Typhum That smoky pride of the world into the Church of Christ What Tribunals abroad did the Bishop of the Britons acknowledge when they proued to August the Moncke that was sent from Rome that they ought him no subiection Nay what Tribunal abroad did Greg. the Bishop of Rome chalenge when he wrote thus to Eulogius Bishop of Alexandria Vestra beatitudo mihi loquitur diceÌ„s sicut iussistis quod verbuÌ„ iussionis peto à meo auditu remouete quia scio quis sum qui estis Loco enim mihi fratres estis moribus patres NoÌ„ ergo iussi sed quae vtilia visa sunt iudicare curauâ— Your blessednes in your letters saith to me as you coÌ„maÌ„ded which word of coÌ„maÌ„ding I beseech you remoue froÌ„ mine eares because I know who I am what you are In calling you are brethreÌ„ to me in behauior fathers I did not theÌ„ coÌ„mand you but aduertise you what semed best to me The same Greg. teacheth you what it is for any one man to require vniuersall subiection of the whole church as your holie father now doth If Paul saith he would not haue the meÌ„bers of the Lords body to be subiect to any heads but to Christ no not to the Apostles themselues what wilt thou answere to Christ the head of the vniuersall church in the last daie of iudgement which goest about to haue all his members in subiection to thee by the
spared by Prinâ—es shoulde bee driuen to earnest and open repentaunce before they bee â—eceiued into the Church or admitted to the diuine mysteries yea rather I thâ—nke it very needefull in a Christian common-wealth that God bee pleased and the Church preserued from all felowshippe with these monsterous impieties as well as the Scepter is intreated for their liues but that you shoulde exempt or saue the workers of wickednes from the Princes sworde and their iust desertes by your priuileges or penances in steede of punishmentes that is quite repugnant to the sacred Scriptures Saint Paul sayth the Prince is Gods minister to reuenge him that doeth euill and not the Priest You may not reuenge malefactours you may separate your selues from them and haue no communion with them the Prince must punish them It passeth your Commission to beare the sworde and without the power of the sworde your corporall correcting and afflicting of them is vnlawfull and wrongfull violence And so for tythes testaments administrations seruitude legitimations and such like you went beyonde your boundes when you restrayned them to your Courtes and without Caesar made Lawes for thinges that belonged vnto Caesar. The goodes Landes Liuings States and families of Lay men and Clerkes are Caesars charge not yours and therefore your decrees iudgements and executions in those cases if you claime them from Christ as thinges spirituall not from Caesar as matters committed of trust to you by Christian Princes are nothing else but open and wilfull inuasions of other mens rightes you chaunging the names and calling those things spirituall and ecclesiasticall which in deede bee ciuill and temporall and shouldering Princes from their cusshins who first suffered Bishoppes to sitte iudges in those causes of Honour to their Persons and fauour to their functions which on your part is but a bad requitall of their Princely graces and benefites Phi. Affinitie consanguinitie contractes mariages diuorces and a number of those which you recken are thinges that depende vpon the lawes of GOD and haue often times such questions incident to them as none but Bishoppes are fit to resolue Theo. All vertues and vices all the partes of mans life both priuate and publike as namely the dueties of Princes Counsellours Captaines Iudges Parents Husbandes Masters Subiectes Souldiers Children Wiues and Seruants yea the woords thoughts and actions of all men depend in this respect vppon the woorde of God whether they shall bee followed as lawfull or auoyded as vnlawfull and haue often tymes in them such questions as none but diuines are â—it to resolue will you therefore inferre that all crimes causes and consultations domesticall Politicall and martiall are within the limittes of your spirituall iurisdiction to bee guided ordered and ended as it seemeth good to your Ghostly fathers Phi. Bishoppes haue power to binde and loose as well in all sinnes as in some Theo. Bishoppes are to teach and instruct men what the will of GOD is in all priuate publike spirituall temporall yea ciuill and warlike affayres but their authoritie goeth no farther than to denounce the woorde and dispence the Sacramentes in such sort as GOD hath prescribed them It passeth their power to make Lawes and appoynt externall and corporall punishments for any sinne that is proper to the sword which GOD hath ordayned of purpose to compell and punish for the better execution of his will and obseruation of his Lawe which â—ee things of all other most spirituall And therefore as Preachers by their office haue instruction and direction in all thinges both temporall and spirituall to compare them and pronounce them consonant or dissonant with the Lawe of GOD so Princes haue compulsion and correction annexed to their swordes as well for spirituall causes as temporall or rather of the twaine to see Godlinesse and honestie preserued amongst men than foode and rayment prouided Phi. This were a Paradoxe in deede that the Princes sworde was first ordayned by God rather for spirituall thinges and causes than for temporall Theo. None at all if you marke it well To buyld and plant sowe and reape eate and drinke there needed no sworde on earth but to preserue the Rules of pietie charitie sobrietie and equitie amongest men for this cause were Magistrates first ordayned by God and these bee thinges precisely and properly called spirituall in the sacred Scriptures The lawe is spirituall sayth the Apostle and the commaundement both the whole and euery part of it is holy iust and good which bee the right notes of spirituall vertues If then the sworde were first erected by GOD to defend and execute the partes and braunches of his Lawe and the contentes of his Lawe be spirituall ergo the Princes power was first ordayned of God for thinges spirituall and not onely for temporall as you fondly dreame and are foully deceiued And this is the meaning of Saint Paul when hee sayth that Princes are not to bee feared for good workes but for euill With whome Saint Peter agreeth calling the king preeminent for the punishment of euil doers and the prayse of them that doe well Nowe good and euill are to bee measured by Gods law not by mans for as no man is good but only God so no mans Lawe is the rule of good and euill but onely Gods And temporall thinges bee neither good nor euill but altogether indifferent ergo Princes were not ordayned of God for temporall things but the goods bodyes and liues of their subiects were coÌ„mitted to their handes for spirituall respects that is for the preseruation of fayth and good maners which shall go for spirituall thinges and causes when your tithes and testaments shall stande backe for temporall Phi. Understand you what temporall is Theo. It should seeme you doe not by your diuiding temporall against spirituall Repugnant to spiritual is carnall corporall and naturall not temporall as you counter set them and opposite to temporall is not spirituall but eternall And here you may see the falsenes and absurdnes of your diuision The spirituall thinges which your Courtes discusse bee temporall not eternall for after this life there bee no such questions nor actions The keyes and Sacraments in which consisteth your spirituall power bee not eternall but temporall they serue for the Church in earth not in heauen Saint Paul will teache you that Prophesyings tongues and knowledge notwithstanding they bee giftes of the spirite and namely rehearsed among spirituall thinges by the holy Ghost yet shall they cease and bee abolished So that all the spiritual things which wee striue for are but temporall and thinges eternall bee neither vnder the Priestes power nor the Princes but reserued onely to God and expected onely from God Phi. Eternall they bee not but spirituall they bee Theo. Then may the selfe-same thinges bee both spirituall and temporall which euerteth cleane your loose diuision of Temporall against spirituall Phi. Temporall wee call those thinges that serue to maintaine this temporall
hereticall Emperour assaied to ouerthrowe multis paucorum fraude deceptis the multitude there being deceiued by the subtiltie of a fewe And therefore hee concludeth Sed nunc ne◠ego Nicenum nec tu debes Ariminense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris But nowe since there be contrarie Councels neither ought I to produce the Councell of Nice nor you the Councel of Ariminum for a preiudice to either part for neither am I bound to the authoritie of this later Councell of Ariminum nor you to the authoritie of that former Nicene Councell Confessing not only that councels might erre but that his aduersarie was not tied to the authoritie of the great Nicene councell comparable to the which no Councell euer was or shall bee in the Church of Christ. Phi. There was great difference betweene the Councell of Ariminum and the Councell of Nice Theo. In the syncere profession of the true fayth there was difference betwixt them but in the manner of calling those Councels and number of the persons present Saint Augustine founde no great aduantage for his side The Arrians had a councell as great and as general for that which they refused as the Catholiques had for that which they professed and therefore this learned father sawe no remedie but hee must yeelde vppe the Nicene Councell as no sufficient conuiction of their heresie Phi. The councell of Ariminum was not generall Theo. The councell was farre greater as it should seeme than the councell of Nice though the Storie of the church doe not lay downe the certaine number of the Bishoppes that mette Phi. What reason leadeth you to thinke it was greater Theo. It is euident by the Storie that the Emperour assembled all the Bishoppes both of the East and of the West church of purpose if it were possible to bring them to some concord and the Bishoppes of either church no doubt farre exceeded the number of three hundred Phi. They were not all at Ariminum Theo. The number was so great and the iourney so long that the Emperour made them sit in two seuerall places the East Bishoppes at Nicomedia the West at Ariminum but that all the Bishoppes of both Churches were gathered in these two places Socrates doeth witnesse Imperator vniuersale Concilium congregare voluit vt cunctos Orientis Episcopos in Occidentem accersitos concordes si posset redderet The Emperour intended to gather an vniuersall Councell that all the Bishoppes of the East comming into the West parts he might get thē to agree if it might be And when the length of the iourney appeared ouer tedious he cōmanded the councel to be diuided willed the west to assemble at Ariminum the East to resort at Nicomedia What a companie there were of the west bishops their own words to Constantius will declare Ariminū ex cunctis Occidentis Ciuitatibus omnes Episcopi conuenimus We assembled at Ariminum euen all the Bishops out of all the west Cities S. Hierom writing of this very Councell saith Illo tempore nihil tam pium nihil tam conueniens seruo Dei videbatur quam vnitatem sequi a totius mundi communione non scindi At that time nothing seemed so religious nothing so conuenient for the seruant of God as to follow vnitie and not to cut himselfe from the Communion of the whole world The communion of the whole world was in the Councell of Ariminum no Councell therefore could be more generall than that was And this no doubt Saint Augustine sawe when hee gaue ouer the Councell of Nice as no greater preiudice to his aduersaries than the Councel of Ariminum was to himselfe and the fayth which he defended Phi. The Councell of Ariminum condemned the error of Arius as their Epistle to Constantius declareth Theo. The Bishoppes assembled at Ariminum were religious and Catholike but not sounding the drift of some craftie heretikes amongest them and ledde with a coulour of concord and peace which the Emperour vrged they relented from the Nicene creede vppon pretence made that the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was new and offensiue and consented the worde should bee abolished and subscribed to an other Creede that professed the sonne of GOD to bee like to his father according to the Scriptures Phi. Wherein then did that Councell erre Theo. Not in decreeing any falsehood but in exacting lesse to bee beleeued than the Christian faith required and reiecting that worde which the Nicene Councell had established for the righter expressing of the christian faith In this Councell saith Saint Hierom Nomine vnitatis fidei infidelitas scripta est In the name of vnitie and faith infidelity was decreed and written and vppon the conclusion of the Councell Ingemuit totus orbis Arrianum se esse miratus est The whole worlde groned and wondered to see it selfe in Arrianisme Phi. The fathers made more accompt of Councels than you doe Theo. No father euer saide that Councels could not erre Phi. S. Augustine saith their authoritie is most wholesome in the Church Theo. But hee neuer said they were free from all error That is the perfection and reuerence which S. Augustine reserueth to the Scriptures only to be without all suspition of error Solis eis Scripturarum libris qui iam Canonici appellantur didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum authorem scribendo aliquid errasse firmissime credam I haue learned to yeeld this feare and honor to the Canonical Scriptures only that I firmely beleeue none of the Authors of them to haue any thing erred in penning them If this honor to be free from error be due to the Canonical Scriptures only then may you not impart it either to succession Councels or Sees Apostolike It must stand for a perpetuall difference betweene the preceptes of God and decrees of men that God is true and all men lyars If ought sayth Austen bee prooued by the manifest authoritie of the diuine Scriptures which in the Church are called Canonicall it must bee beleeued without any doubting Other witnesses or testimonies thou mayst beleeue or not beleeue according as thou shalt see cause to trust thē And distinguishing the Canon of the Scriptures from the writings and resolutions of all that followed were they fathers Councels or whatsoeuer hee sayth In that Canonicall preeminence of the sacred Scriptures if it appeare that but one Prophet Apostle or Euangelist set downe any thing in his writings it is not lawfull to doubt of the trueth of it In the works of those that came after them comprised in bookes that bee infinite in which soeuer of them the same truth is sound yet the authoritie is farre inferior Therfore in thē if happily some things be thought to dissent from truth because they be not vnderstood as they were spoken tamen liberum ibi habet lector
neither can you of a promise which is common to all establish a priuate Tribunall for one man from the which the spirit of trueth shal not depart as you professe of the Popes Consistorie Phi. If he may erre how can he be iudge of al others Theo. You say wel since by the consent and confession of your own church foureteene hundred yeres after Christ he may erre we conclude he can not bee supreme iudge of faith nor Soueraigne directer of Princes in those cases Phi. Was our whole Church of that opinion so lately Theo. Shew euer any learned man of your side that sayde or helde otherwise Phi. Nay shewe you they held so Theo. I haue already shewed so much Phi. You haue named some priuate men that wrate so Theo. The strongest pillours of your Church Phi. But you say this opinion was generall Theo. If you consider how earnestly and openly this was asserted by the best and neuer contradicted by any no not by those that tooke vpon them to bee the chiefe Proctours and Patrones for the Pope your selfe will say it was generall and confessed on all sides Your owne Decrees that will not haue the Pope reprooued for any fault adde this exception Nisi deprehendatur a fide deuius vnlesse hee bee founde to swarue from the fayth The Bishoppes of Fraunce and Germanie gathered at Brixia and Mogunce against Gregorie the seuenth condemned him as The auncient disciple of the heretike Berengarius a vera fide exorbitantem and swaruing from the true fayth His owne Cardinals and Bishoppes that were at Rome made this profession against him Ad destruendas haereses nouiter ab Hildebrando inuentas consedimus We assembled to destroy the heresies lately deuised by Pope Hildebrand And in special wordes Hoc est decretum Hildebrandi in quo a Doctrina fide Catholica aberrauit This is Hildebrands decree in which hee erred from the Catholike doctrine and fayth Robert Grosseteste Bishoppe of Lincolne reuerenced of your Church for a Saint lying on his death proued the Pope not onely might bee but was an heretike by sundry reasons and by the very definition of heresie and for the possibilitie of the matter alleageth the Popes owne testimonie Item dicit Decretalis quod super tali vitio videlicet haeresi potest debet Papa accusari The Decretall sayth that for heresie the Pope may and ought to be accused But what speake I of one Bishop Six hundred Prelates an hundred foure and twentie Diuines and almost three hundred Lawyers with the whole Colledge of Cardinals in your generall Councell of Pisa deposed two Popes Gregorie the twelfth and Benedict the thirteenth as schismatikes and heretikes Your Councell of Constance where as you say were 4. Patriarkes 29. Cardinals 47. Archbishoppes 270. Bishops 564. Abbats and Doctours in all aboue nine hundred deposed the same Benedict persisting in his Popedom notwithstanding the former sentence as being schismaticum haereticum ac a fide deuium articuli fidei Vnam sanctam Catholicam Ecclesiam violatorem pertinacem notorium manifestum a schismatike and an heretike swaruing from the faith and a wilfull notorious manifest subuerter of the Article of our faith one holy Catholike Church And in the same Councel it was obiected to Iohn the 23. Quod dictus Iohannes Papa 23. saepe saepius coram diuersis Prelatis alijs honestis probis viris pertinaciter Diabolo suadente dixit asseruit dogmatizauit astruxit vitam eternam non esse quin imo dixit pertinaciter credidit animam hominis cum corpore humano mori extingui ad instar animalium brutorum dixÃt que mortuum semel esse in nouissimo die minimè resurrecturum contra articulum de resurrectione mortuorum That often and very often before diuers Prelates and other honest and approoued men hee sayd auouched vttered as his iudgement egerly defended that there is no life euerlasting yea moreouer hee sayde and resolutely beleeued that the soule of man dieth and perisheth with the bodie after the maner of other beasts and that hee which was once dead should not rise in the last day contrarie to the article of the resurrection of the dead Your generall councell of Basil which Germanie Fraunce Englande the Dukedome of Millan and many other Countries so greatly esteemed gaue the like iudgement not yet seuen skore seuen yeres agoe against Eugenius the 4. and iudicially pronounced him to bee schismaticum a fide deuium pertinacem haereticum a schismatike erring from the fayth and a stubburne heretike Lastly your diuines of Paris but last day resolued that Peter erred in faith when Paul reprooued him and if Peter did there can bee no question but his successours may since they claime from him and not before him If this bee not the generall consent of your owne Church I knowe not what is If it bee then by the full and cleare confession of your selues for 1400. yeeres the Pope might stray from the faith and become an heretike Phi. There is not one of your examples but may be replied to Theo. Graunt they might yet this is most sure which I conclude that they were al of this opinion the Pope coulde erre Phi. What if that opinion were not true Theo. That must you proue It is enough for mee to shewe that not onely the church of Christ in former ages but your owne Church euen vntil our age held this opinion of Popes that they could erre What reason you haue or can haue to impugne their opinion let the world iudge We thinke you within the compasse of Alfonsus censure if ye be not worse Phi. What if wee should graunt the Pope may erre as al men may That doeth not diminish his power Theo. A iudge must haue two thinges before hee bee competent namely skill to discerne that hee misse not the trueth and power to commaund that his iudgement may take place If he want either hee is no fit iudge Phi. You say right and both these the Pope hath in most ample maner Theo. He hath neither Erre he may and therefore no man is bound to his iudgement farther than it standeth with the word of truth and so farre the greatest Princes in the world are bound to the meanest man that God doth send For God is truth they that resist the truth resist God and the end of them al that resist is damnation which Princes shal not auoyde vnlesse they submit themselues to the hearing embracing and obeying of the truth And as hee may erre so hath hee no power to commaund Princes or others but only to propose the commandements of God vnto them as euery Bishop must may by vertue of his vocation Farther authority by violence to compel or by corporal and external meanes to punish no Prelate nor Pope hath by the lawe of God since that belongeth to the
opinion is common but not currant with vs If you meane to proue it you shall haue the longer and stiller audieÌ„ce Phi. S. Peter being but a meere spiritual officer and Pastor of mens soules yet for sacrilege and simulation stroke dead both man and wife S. Paul stroke blind Elymas the Magician So did he threaten to come to his contemners in rod of discipline So did be excoÌ„municate a Principal person in Corinth for incest not only by spiritual punishment but also by bodily vexation giuing him vp to Satans chastisement As he corporally also corrected and molested with an euill spirit Himeneus and Alexander for blasphemie and heresie Finally he boldly auoucheth that his power in God is to reuenge al disobedience and to bring vnder all loftie hearts to the loialtie of christ and of the Apostles and Sainctes in this life Nescitis quoth he quoniam Angelos iudicabimus quanto magis secularia knowe you not that wee shall iudge Angels how much more secular matters Theo. Such dissolute mariners were neuer like but to make such desperate aduentures You shoulde proue that spirituall Pastours haue power to sease the goods and possessions and chastise the bodies of such as they excommunicate and you shewe where God afflicted those for their sinnes which the Apostles cast out of the Church either with euill spirites or some corporall plague or death as hee sawe cause which is not pertinent to your purpose Can you not distinguish the finger of God from the factes of men Or see you no difference between miraculous vengeance from heauen and iudicial processe on earth God strake Ananias dead for tempting him in Peter and Elymas for resisting him in Paul May Preachers therefore putte out mens eyes and murther such as beleeue them not In deede you practise this new kinde of preaching but not by warrant from Christ or his Apostles Philand Did not Peter kill Ananias and Sapphira with his worde Theo. And since you can not do the like with your words you will take helpe of your handes Phi. With wordes or handes so they bee slaine all is one Theo. Not so The one is a miracle wrought by God the other is a murder committed by man which God prohibiteth and of all other thinges ought to bee farthest from the Preachers of peace Phi. Peter did so Theo. Peter reproued them for tempting the holie Ghost but the hande of God and not of Peter inflicted the punishment Reade the place Then saide Peter Ananias why hath Satan filled thine heart that thou shouldest he vnto the holie Ghost Thou hast not lied vnto men but vnto God Nowe when Ananias hearde these words saith the Scrâ—pture hee fell downe and gaue vppe the Ghost I aske not what faâ—t of Peters you finde that shoulde hasten the death of Ananias but what one worde purporting any such thing can you shewe vs in all that Peter saide to Ananias Phi. In his wordes to Sapphira wee can For hee saide to her The feete of them that haue buried thine husband are at the doore and shall carrie thee out Theo. Did Peter by these words kill her or foretell her that God would doe to her as hee had doone to her husbande Phi. Which say you Theo. Peter we say neither desired nor inflicted that iudgement on them but onely signified what God would doe The like we saie for Paul when Elymas was stroken blind He warned that Sorcerer what should befall him from God but himselfe did neither enuie nor iniurie the Sorcerers eyes His wordes were Wilt thou not cease to peruert the streight waies of the Lord Now therefore behold the hand of the Lord is vpon thee and thou shalt be blind not seeing the Sunne for a time Paul denounced Paul imposed not that corporall chastisement on him The deede was Gods who may iustly take from his enemies not onely their eies but their breathes and spirits when he wil and in what sort it pleaseth best his righteous and sacred wisedome Phi. But Paul himselfe corporallie corrected and molested with an euill spirite Himineus and Alexander for blasphemie and heresie So did he excommunicate a Principal Person in Corinth for incest not onely by spiritual punishment but also by bodilie vexation giuing him vp to Satans chastisement Theo. You drawe the word of God to your fansies by turning doubtes into certaineties antecedentes into consequentes mans actions into Gods iudgementes That the Apostle deliuered Himineus and Alexander vnto Satan and so the incestuous Corinthian whom you of your owne head without any witnesse call a Principal Person in Corinth because the slide you saw was easie from Principall to Princes is a matter out of question but that he corporally corrected and molested them with euil spirites these be your additamentes wherewith you thought to lengthen the text to your own liking Phi. S. Paul gaue iudgement of the Corinthian that he should bee deliuered vnto Satan for the destruction of the flesh And how could the flesh be destroied without bodily vexation affliction The. This phrase for the destruction of the flesh hath diuerse expositions therefore vpon a doubtful kinde of speech you can not build an vndouted conclusion S. Ambrose expoundeth the place thus The Apostle decreed that by the consent in the presence of all men he should be cast out of the Church Cum eijcitur traditur Satanae in interitum carnis Et anima enim corpus intereunt His casting him out of the Church is the deliuering of him to Satan to the destruction of the whole man which is nothing but flesh For both soule and bodie perish And lest you shoulâ— thinke it much that the soule is called fleshe he giueth this reason Victa anima libidine carnis fit caro the soule once ouercome by the lustes of the flesh becommeth flesh and is in the Scripture so commonly called the lusts of the flesh deliuereth the soule defiled with it and also the body to hell Phi. But S. Paul addeth that the spirite may bee saued in the day of our Lord Iesus Christ which can not stand with this exposition that both fleshe spirit were deliuered vnto perdition Theo. The same father will tell you that the spirit may be referred not to him that was excluded but to the rest that remained in the church as if S. Paul should haue saide I haue decreed to cast this vncleane person out from among you to his iust condemnation that the grace of Gods spirit may be preserued in the rest of you to the day of iudgement The same Sainct Augustine followeth What spirite doeth the Apostle affirme shoulde bee preserued when he saieth I haue deliuered that man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh c. The destruction of the flesh ment in this place is a man addicted to pleasures and fleshly delightes purchaseth hell to himselfe For by such sinnes the whole man becommeth
you Marke howe Paul deliuered the man of Corinth to Satan Eijciebatur nempe a communi fidelium caetu hee was cast out of the congregation of the faythfull hee was cutte off from the flocke of Christ and left naked and being so destitute of Gods helpe hee lay open to the Wolfe and subiect to euerie assault So sayth Theodorete By this place where Paul deliuered the incestuous Corinthian to Satan we are taught that the diuell inuadeth them which are seuered cut off from the bodie of the church finding them destitute of Gods grace Keepe your selues therefore within your limites Pastors haue their charge which is as S. Paul noteth to watch ouer soules they haue not to doe with the goods or bodies of the faithfull Their goods are Caesars by the plaine resolution of our Sauiour Giue vnto Caesar the thinges which are Caesars Which God willed Samuel to aduertise the people of when they first demaunded a king Shew them the right or law of the king that shall raigne ouer them And so Samuel did saying This shall be the law of your king He shall take your sonnes and appoint them for his charets and to be his horsemen shal make theÌ„ captaines ouer thowsandes captaines ouer fiftyes set them to eare his grounds to reape his haruest to make his instruments of war things to serue for his charets And he wil take your fields vines best olyues giue them to his seruants And he wil take the tenth of your corn wine giue it to his Princes seruitors And he wil take your men seruaÌ„ts maideseruants the choice of your yong meÌ„ your asses vse theÌ„ to his work The tenth of your sheep wil he take ye shal be his seruaÌ„ts Phi. Make you the king Lord of al without exception Theo. Though God neuer ment that Princes inordinate priuate pleasures should wast consume the wealth of their Realmes yet may they iustly commaunde the goods and bodies of all their Subiects in time both of warre and peace for any publike necessitie or vtilitie Whereby God declareth Princes and not Pastours to bee the right ouerseers of temporall and earthlie matters and consequentlie that the power of the keyes extendeth not to those thinges which are committed to the Princes charge I meane neither to the goods nor to the bodies of christian men To a king sayth Chrysostom are the bodies of men committed to the Priest their soules The king pardoneth corporall offences the Priest remitteth the guiltinesse of sinne The king compelleth the Priest exhorteth the one with force the other with aduise the kings weapons are sensible the Priâ—stes are Ghostly The like distinction betweene them doth S. Hierom make Rex nolentibus praest Episcopus volentibus ille timore subijcit hic seruituti donatur ille corpora custodit ad mortem hic animas seruat ad vitam The king ruleth men vnwilling the Priest none saue the willing the king hath his in subiection with terrour the Priest is appointed for the seruice of his the king mastereth their bodies with death but the Priest preserueth their soules to life This power of the sword our Sauiour precisely prohibited his Apostles as I haue shewed and therefore you may not indirectly nor by accident chalenge it Phi. Why then did Paul saie Knowe you not that wee shall iudge the Angels howe much more secular matters Theo. If this bee the best hold you haue in the new Testament for secular matters you must take the paynes to light from your horse and goe on your feete as well as your neighbours For the Apostle speaketh that of all Christians which you restraine to Priests and moueth the parties striuing rather to make their brethren arbiters of their quarrelles than to persue one an other before Infidels What grant is this to you in your owne right to bee iudges ouer your brethren in all secular affaires and not onely without their consents to determine their griefes but also to bereaue them of their goods and lands and afflict their bodies yea to pull the sword out of Princes handes take their Crownes from their heades when the rulers are beleeuers as well as the Preachers Do you not know saith S. Paul that the Saincts not onely Priests shal iudge the world If the world then shal be iudged by you speaking to all that were of the church at Corinth are ye vnworthy to iudge the smalest matters He saith not it was their right to iudge secular matters but they were worthy to bee trusted with them whom God would trust with greater and shewing that hee spake this of the people not of the Priests he saith If then you haue any iudgementes concerning the thinges of this life make euen the contemptible in the church your iudges Hee saith not God hath made them your iudges but rather thaÌ„ your contending brabling about earthly things which you professe to contemn should be knowen to Ethniks such as hate deride both Christ you your selues make the meanest of your brethren whom you will your iudges Nowe ioyne your conclusion ergo the Pope hath authority to dispose the goods lands and liues of all the faithâ—ul euen of Princes theÌ„selues be they neuer so iust or religious Magistrates and see what a non sequitur you conclude out of S. Pauls wordes Phi. The Primatiue church vnderstood this place of Priests and Bishops as appeareth by Sainct Augustine complaining of the tumultuous perplexities of other mens causes in secular matters to the which troubles sayth he the Apostle hath fastened vs. 1. Corinth 5. The like hee witnesseth of S. Ambrose at Millan And S. Gregory reporteth the same of himselfe at Rome Theo. Trueth it is the Bishoppes of the Primatiue church were greatly troubled with those matters not as ordinarie iudges of those causes but as arbiters elected by the consent of both parties And I coulde requite you with Gregories owne wordes of the same matter in the same place Quod certum est nos non debere which it is certaine we ought not to do but yet I thinke so long as it did not hinder their vocation function though it were troublesome vnto them they might neither in charitie nor in dutie refuse it because it tended to the preseruing of peace loue amongest meÌ„ And the Apostle had licenced all men to choose whom they woulde in the church for their iudges no doubt meaning that they which were chosen shoulde take the paynes to heare the cause and make an ende of the strife But it is one thing to make peace between brethren as they did by heaping their griefes with consent of both sides and an other thing to claime a iudiciall interest in those causes in spite of mens heartes Which wrong you shoulde not offer the least of your brethren much lesse may you
three admonitions and the last publike after the which if that take not place we shal be excused before God if we no longer accept him that did vs wrong in the number of our brethren Let him be to thee as an Ethnike and a Publicane that is sayth S. Augustine Noli illum deputare iam in numero fratrum tuorum nec ideo tamen salus eius negligenda Do not accompt him in the number of thy brethren and yet his saluation must not bee neglected For the Ethnikes themselues that is heathen men and Pagans wee doe not recken to bee our brethren and yet we seeke to saue them By this you may doe well to erect a Court where euery subiect may sewe his Prince for priuate iniuries and to make your selues Iudges of all such matters that if the Prince refuse your order you may take his Crowne from him Is not this thinke you good diuinitie for a Christian Common-wealth Phi. If hee that will not heare the Church in priuate offences betweene man and man must bee taken and vsed as an heathen how much more he that will not heare nor obey the Church in publike and haynous sinnes against God Theo. Take the place howe you will of priuate or publike iniuries or sinnes against man or against God no such thing is consequent as you would seeme to inferre If hee heare not the Church whosoeuer whensoeuer in what cause soeuer graunt all this that your antecedent may bee the freer from checke or chaunce what will you conclude Phi. He must bee to vs as an heathen Theo. And what then must heathen Princes bee depriued of their Crownes and Scepters Was not Caesar an heathen when our Sauiour willed all men to giue to Caesar the thinges which were Caesars Was hee not an heathen Magistrate before whome Christ stoode when hee sayde Thou couldest haue no power ouer mee vnlesse it were giuen thee from aboue Were they not heathen Princes to whome Peter and Paul required and charged all Christian Princes to bee subiect without all resistance Did not the Church of Christ taught by them so to doe submit her selfe for the space of three hundered yeeres to heathen Princes and those terrible and most bloudie tyrants Phi. We deny not this Theo. You can not If then disobayers of the Church must be vsed no worse than heathens and publicanes ergo they must neither bee spoiled of their goodes nor afflicted in their bodies nor remoued from their seates if they be Princes For these things by Gods Law the Church might not offer to Pagans nor Publicans Phi. This that Christ saith if he heare not the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnicke and a Publicane is by the iudgement of S. Augustine more grieuous than if he were slaine with the sword consumed with fier or torne with wilde beastes Theo. And why because the iudgement of God to the which he is reserued shall bee more heauie to him than any humane torments can be And this maketh rather against you than with you For if the neglecter of the Church shal be so grieuously punished at Gods hands why doe you challenge to your selues the corporal correcting and chastising of such as disobay the Church And so Saint Augustine expoundeth himselfe It is by and by added saith he by our Sauiour Amen I say vnto you What you bind on earth shall bee bound in heauen that we should vnderstand how grieuous a punishment it is to bee left vnpunished by man and to be reserued to the iudgement of God Phi. The Church hath decreed that heretikes shall not beare rule ouer Catholikes and this voice of the Church all men are bound to heare vnlesse they will be counted for Pagans and Infidels Theo. First the Church can make no such decree next the Church of Christ neuer made any such Decree Phi. May not the Church make that Decree Theo. Shee may not Her power concerneth the soules of men and not their bodies and neuer goeth beyond the word and Sacraments Shee may not intermeddle with the temporal states and inheritances of Priuate men against their willes much lesse with the thrones and swords of Princes The Church cannot giue leaue that children shall disobay their Parents nor seruants their Masters nor weomen their husbandes because God hath already commanded they shall obay whose precepts the Church is with al reuerence to receiue and with all diligence to obserue and not to frustrate or hinder the least iote of his heauenly will and Testament If any particular places or persons attempt the contrarie they cease to be the Church of GOD in that they wilfully reiect and change the worde of God S. Augustine saith well Non debet ecclesia se Christo praeponere The Church may not preferre her selfe before Christ. Neither may we beleeue the true Churches them selues vnlesse they say and doe those things that are consonant to the Scriptures Yea we must accurse the Angels in heauen if they should do otherwise The whole Church oweth the same dutie to all and euery the precepts of God that ech priuate person doth And therfore shee may not dissolue nor disappoint the least of them Now the Church her selfe is commanded by the mouth of Christ and his Apostles to honor and obay Princes For these precepts be general touch the whole church Giue to Caesar the things that be Caesars Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers Submit your selues to the king as the chiefest For so is the will of God neither Monke Priest Prelate Pope Euangelist or Apostle exempted as in the place where I haue already shewed Ergo shee hath no right to dishonour or depose Princes nor to licence their subiects to resist them at her will and on her warrant which is the grounde that you build on Phi. They be but flatterers of Princes that so say or heretikes that so thinke that the ministers of Christes most deare spouse of his very mysticall bodie his kingdome house on earth whom at his dâ—parture hence he did indowe with most ample commissioÌ„ and sent foorth with that authoritie that his father before gaue vnto him haue no power ouer Princes to denounce or declare them to be violators of Gods and the Churches Lawes nor to punish them either spiritually or temporally not to excommunicate them nor to discharge the people of their oth and obedience towards such as neither by Gods Law nor mans a true Christian may obay Theo. If we knewe not your accustomed brauerie you might somwhat trouble vs with your insolent vanities but now we haue so good experience of your fierce lookes and faint harts that we neede not feare your force Bring somwhat besides your own conceit that the Pope may depose Princes and then call vs flatterers and heretikes at your pleasure If not take heede you proue not presumpteous and stately rebels against God and man I winne you be the
him as his robes and his throne Phi. Did not S. Ambrose send him woorde that he should goe out of the Chauncell and stande among the people Theo. After his reconciliation when they approched to the diuine mysteries the Prince came within the barres which were prouided for those that shoulde helpe the Bishop to minister the Lordes supper as his manner was at Constantinople to whom the Bishoppe sent word being himselfe at the Lords table that those Rayles were prepared for the Priestes and that it was not lawfull for any man else to come within them And so Sozomene confesseth The Emperours sayth he were wont for an excellencie aboue the people to sit in the same place where the Priestes were Ambrose seeing this to fauour of flatterie assigned the Emperours a place in the Church next to the Chauncel before the people but after the Priestes This order Theodosius and other Princes that succeeded him greatly praysed and we see it obserued from that day to this So that Saint Ambrose neither ment to take their seates from them within the Church nor their robes without the Church but thought it reason that the Princes precepts should not trouble the Priestes in the seruice of God And therefore take flatterie and heresie to your selues againe we like and commend both the pietie of the Prince and the grauitie of the Bishop but your malitious deprauing of the storie and mischieuous abusing the zeale of S. Ambrose to warrant rebellions insurrections against Princes whiles they repent them of their sinnes wee doe not like the more honourable his act that sought to saue the Princes soule with the hazard of his owne life the more detestable is yours that fish for Princes Crownes vnder a shewe of penance as if earthly kings might not bewaile their sinnes and keepe their seales which you are loth they should If Anastasius had beene excommunicated by Simachus it hurteth not vs deposed he was not by him or any other and with an hereticall Prince neither Simachus neither any other christian Bishop might communicate yet euen thē was the East Church subiect to a Prince that fauoured Eutiches heresie and Italie to a follower of Arius and the contention which of the two shoulde bee Bishop of Rome Symmachus or Laurentius was referred to the iudgement of king Theodoricus an Arian heretike but that Symmachus did excōmunicate Anastasius I find it in no authentike writer Euagrius sayth that some condēned Anastasius as an aduersarie to the Councell of Chalcedon and reckened him out of the number of christian Emperours Yea they of Hierusalem accursed or excommunicated him Nicephorus rehearsing the wordes of Euagrius addeth that they of Hierusalem excommunicated Anastasius yet liuing which was more than Euagrius said Sabellicus and Platina your very friends say this Emperour was excommunicated by Gelasius the second bishop before Symmachus Martinus Polonus and Iohannes Marius affirme it was done by Anastasius the next before Symmachus you say Symmachus did it which of these reports is the truest can you tell A witnes is not trusted if he be taken with two tales we finde you in three and that touching matters done a thousand yeeres before your time the wiser elder Historiographers whence you should fetch it as Regino Sigibertus Vrspergensis Frisingensis Marianus Scotus and others affirming no such thing the later and most partiall faintly comming in with sunt qui scribunt vt tradunt quidam there bee that write so as some say shal we beleeue you Your Canon Lawe the very hart and life of al your recordes at Rome hath a very miraculous letter of the Pope Gelasius to this Anastasius where Gelasius telleth the Emperour howe Zacharie Bishoppe of Rome deposed the king of Fraunce and put Pipine the father of Charles the Emperour in his place and discharged all the Frenchmen from their othe and allegeance Whereas Zacharie was Bishoppe of Rome two hundreth and fourtie yeeres after Gelasius was dead and Charles beganne not his Empire till eight hundreth after Christ Gelasius dying within fiue hundreth Thus Hilderike king of Fraunce was deposed two hundreth yeres before hee was borne and Gelasius wrate newes of Charles three hundreth yeeres after Gelasius was deade and buried By such deuises you may soone depose Princes if not by mutinies yet at least by prophesies Phi. The gloze warneth you that some take these to bee Gratians and not Gelasius words Theo. But Gratian himselfe warned you before that they were Gelasius wordes to Anastasius the Emperour for so he prefixeth the title Vnde Gelasius Papa Anastasio Imperatori In which sense Pope Gelasius wrate thus to the Emperour Anastasius Then followe these woordes summed in red letters before as his manner of alleaging is throughout the whole bodie of your Canon Law And therfore vnlesse you will say the collectour of your Decrees Decretals wrate the title waking and the text sleeping you can not choose but see what morter hath been vsed at Rome to plaister your holy fathers rotten right to depose Princes Lotharius and Michael Emperours you say were excōmunicated by Nicholas the first If we should aske you how you prooue it perhaps it woulde trouble you more than you think Late writers in this case we trust not auncient wee finde none that report any such thing of Michael Platina saith that Nicholas the first entertained the Embassadours of this Michael with great curtesie sent them home with presents to their master Zonaras a Grecian confesseth that the legates of the Bishop of Rome in a Councell assembled at Constantinople deposed Ignatius and confirmed Photius And though you haue shuffled into your Decretals a flaunting Epistle vnder the name of Nicholas the first to this Michael to frustrate the iudgement of those corrupt Legates and to reproue the Prince for his ouer-lustie letters yet knowe you that no good storie maketh mention of any such strife betweene them and that in the letter it selfe notwithstanding it be a perfect image of your shyfting and forging to make the Popes pride somewhat auncient yet is there no word nor signe of excommunication denounced or threatned against Michael Lotharius you grossely mistake it was not the Emperour whom Nicholas the first offered to excommunicate but a king of Lorraine named Lotharius and brother to Lodouike the second that held the Empire both during the life of Nicholas the first after his death Neither did the Pope excommunicate that king as you auouche but hee willed the king to beware lest he fell within the compas of that sentence which was giuen against his harlot and lest him selfe were forced to publish that his wilfulnes to the Church and so the King should become as an Ethnike and Publicane to all Christians And that the deed was not done you may perceiue by Pope Adrians behauiour speach to Lotharius and the rest when he ministred the Lords Supper
to them at their cōming to Rome yet the attempt was so strange that Otho Frisingensis saith See the kingdome decreasing and the Church aspiring to that authoritie that she will iudge kings The famous and as you say maiesticall excommunication of Arcadius and Eudoxia by Innocentius well neere 1200. yeres agoe is a ridiculous and peeuish corruption deuised by some practiser at Rome and embraced ouer greedily by Nicephorus and other later Grecians in fauour of Chrysostome Which insolent fansie wide from the matter we striue for and full of forgerie because it is refuted before I may well ouerskippe If it were true as it is apparently false it remoueth Princes from the Sacraments but not from their Scepters Thus of seuen examples pretended that Princes were excōmunicated in the auncient times of the Church only one is duely proued and no mo within 860. yeres after Christ that not by the Bishop of Rome but by S. Ambrose Bishop of Millan The rest are either enforced against the stories of the Church or boldly presumed by you besides the stories And yet were they all prooued and confessed they make nothing for your purpose The question is not whether bishops shall receiue kinges with open and obstinate vices to the Lordes table but whether they may chase them from their kingdomes or no. We mislike not repentance in Princes but resistance in subiects bind their sinnes as fast as you can but pul them not downe from their Seates And yet least you should thinke that Princes then had no faultes or that learned and godly Bishops did in those dayes forbeare to excommunicate Princes rather for feare or flatterie than for any Religion or duetie marke what care S. Augustine will haue obserued howe and when discipline shoulde bee vsed If contagion of sinne haue inuaded a multitude the mercifull seueritie of correction from God himselfe is necessarie nam consilia separationis inania sunt perniciosa atque sacrilega quia impia superba fiunt plus perturbant infirmos bonos quà m corrigant animosos malos For then the attempt to excommunicate is frustrate and pernicious yea sacrilegious because it becommeth both impious and arrogant and more troubleth the good that be weake than correcteth the euill that be carelesse Neither was this the iudgement of S. Augustine alone but the generall wisedome of Christes church as himselfe professeth when he entereth into this question In hac velut angustia quaestionis non aliquid nouum aut insolitum dicam sed quod sanitas obseruat ecclesiae vt cum quisque fratrum id est Christianorum intus in ecclesiae societate constitutorum in aliquo tali peccato fuerit deprehensus vt anathemate dignus habeatur fiat hoc vbi periculum schismatis nullum est atque id cum ea dilectione de qua ipse alibi praecepit dicens vt inimicum non eum existimetis sed corripite vt fratrew Non enim estis ad eradicandum sed ad corrigendum In the straitnes of this question I will say nothing that is newe or vnwonted but that which the soundnes of the church obserueth that when any of our brethren I meane Christians within the Church is deprehended in any such fault that hee deserueth excommunication let that be done where there is no daunger of any schisme and with such loue as the Apostle commanded saying Esteeme him not as an enemie but rebuke him as a brother For you are not to roote vp but to amend And to this ende S. Augustine largely disputeth throughout that chapter shewing that excommunication is not to be vsed where a schisme is iustly feared It can not bee an healthful reproouing by many but when hee that is reproued hath no number to take his part But if the same disease hath possessed many the good haue nothing left for them to do but to sorrowe and mourne And therefore the same Apostle finding many defiled with fornication and vncleannes in his seconde epistle to the same Corinthians doeth not commaund them not to eate meate with such Hee that calleth excommunication a proude pernicious and sacrilegious attempt where any number is linked together that a schisme may follow what would he haue sayd to you that excommunicate Princes and whole Realmes whence not onely daungerous schismes but also cruell persecutions easily may commonly doe arise Againe the ende of excommunication which Saint Paul toucheth and the meane which he prescribeth do cease in Princes If any man obey not our sayings haue no cōpanie with him that hee may be ashamed Now the princes companie the subiects may not flie both in respect of the necessitie that al men haue to deale with the magistrate duetie that must be yeelded to the Princes person and preceptes And how should the people make their Prince ashamed whom by Gods Law they must honour and obey in all thinges and by whom they must iustly bee punished if they offer default in any thing And this the church of God wisely considering neuer vrged any Subiectes to dishonour their Princes neither did Sainct Ambrose separate Theodosius from the companie of men but hee charged him in Gods name to refraine the church and Sacramentes vntill hee appeased the wrath of God by repentaunce Hee charged not the people to disgrace or shunne their Prince but he burdened the Princes owne conscience knowing full well his religious disposition and offering his life into the Princes handes if he misliked the fact Your selues prouide for this mischiefe but as your maner is by wicked craftie dissembling not by christian and sober forbearing the thing which you should not aduenture The Pope who is farre enough off and free from al hazardes hee must first pronounce the sentence you will stande by and watch your time when you may safely without losse of life or goods put his sentence in execution till that pinch come you may sweare and stare you bee louing and obedient Subiects but then in any case you must shew your selues or else you be accursed for euer Toledo teacheth you that if there be danger of life or goods you may finely iuggle with excommunicate Princes and serue thē and honour them with al circumstances till you be strong enough to take their Crownes from their heades in spite of their heartes and then you must spare them no longer and so much the dispensation which Campion and Parsons obtayned of his holinesse when they came into this Realme importeth Phi. Woulde you that men shoulde communicate with hereticall Princes Theo. Condemne their errours but praie for their persons for so the Apostle willeth you I exhort you therefore that first of all supplications prayers and intercessions bee made for kinges and for al that are in authoritie when kinges were Infidels and Idolaters So God commaunded his people whē they were caried to Babylon Seek the prosperitie of the citie whether I haue caused you to bee caried awaie
Caluinistes furie phrensie mutinie I know not what You may pursue depose murther Princes when the Bishop of Rome biddeth you that without breach of dutie law or cōscience to God or man as you vaunt though neither life nor limme of yours be touched wee may not so much as beseech Princes that we may be vsed like subiects not like slaues like men not like beasts that we may bee conuented by lawes before iudges not murthered in corners by inquisitours wee may not so much as hide our heades nor pull our neckes out of the greedie iawes of that Romish wolfe but the fome of your vncleane mouth is ready to call vs by al the names you can deuise Howbeit looke well to your selues it is not enough for you to haue lawes of your owne making to licence you to beare armes against your Prince you must haue Gods law for your warrant or else you come within the compasse of heinous and horrible rebellion For you doe not defend your selues but impugne your Prince you seeke not the freedom of your religion but the subuersion of other mens estates you do not take armes that your condition may be tolerable but that her highnes shoulde be no Prince you saue not your own liues but intend her death These shamefull and manifest treasons against the law of God nature and nations you smooth with a few faint colours and publish them to the whole world for iust honorable and godly warres But deceiue not your selues the breath of your mouthes may not ouerbeare the lawes of God states of men You must shew some better warrant than the Popes decrees or else your rising in armes against your Prince though the Bishoppe of Rome back and abet you with all his Buls and Decretals is an vnlawful irreligious and wicked rebellion Phi. Whosoeuer seeketh not after the Lord God of Israell let him bee slaine saide king Asa admonished by Azaria the Prophet from the highest to the lowest without exception And all the people and many that followed him and fled to him out of Israel from the schisme there did sweare and vowe them-selues in the quarrell of the God of their forefathers And they prospered and deposed Queene Maáchah Mother to Asa for Apostasie and for worshipping the venereous God called Priapus Theo. Doth the example of king Asa forcing his Subiectes with an othe and vnder paine of death to seeke after the Lorde God of Israel serue you to proue that Subiectes may assault their king and oppresse him with armes Will this goe for a reason with you The Magistrate may vse the sworde and put offendours to death ergo the Subiect may vse the same and that against his Prince Sure if you make such collections wee shall mistrust rebellion hath so possessed your braynes that reason hath no place in you Phi. This example proueth that heretikes may be deposed and put to death Theo. But by whom By the Prince or the people Phi. The king I grant was the doer Theo. Then seeke farther for your conspiracies against kinges this example will do you no good Phi. The people that fledde to him out of Israel from the schisme there did sweare and vowe themselues in the same quarrell with the king of Iudah Theo. The straungers that fledde out of Israell for their conscience sake tooke an oth to serue the same God but not to beare armes against their owne countrie Phi. They prospered and deposed Queene Maáchah mother to Asa for Apostasie and for worshipping the venereous God Priapus Theo. You inlarge the number where you should not which by your leaue is a plaine corruption of the Scripture The text is And king Asa deposed Maáchah his mother from her regēcie because she had made an idoll And againe not they but he deposed Maáchah his mother from her estate because she had made an idol The Queene mother was remoued from her honor dignitie by the king her sonne for her idolatrie but Asa did not put her to death though that were the summe of the oth which the king and the rest tooke and he that did this deede was the true king of Iudah and in full possession of the crowne many yeares before and suffered his mother not in her owne right but of reuerence curtesie towards her to inioy some part of her former degree and dignitie from the which he lawfully might and worthily did put her when shee fell to erecting and worshipping Idols Phi. The text noteth not howe long hee was king before hee deposed his mother Theo. After the death of Abiah Asa his sonne saieth the Scripture raigned in his steede in whose dayes the Land was quiet tenne yeares Then came the AEthiopians out against him with an huge hie host those hee ouerthrew And at his returne the Prophet Azariah met him and incouraged him to goe forwarde in the reformation of the Lande which hee perfourmed in all the Cities of Iudah and Beniamin and gathered all the people of the Lande togither in the fifteenth yeare of his raigne where this oth was taken and paine appointed before his mother was deposed So that he not shee was rightfull Gouernour of Iudah and that which shee lost was either the honour and dignitie which otherwise did appertaine to so great a State as the kinges mother or else that portion of the Lande which was assigned to her to rule vnder the king in respect of her dowrie Howsoeuer the kingdome shee had not and therefore the crowne she lost not neither finde you here a Prince deposed by his subiectes but a Prince remouing her that in nature was his mother in condition his subiect from that authoritie or dignitie choose you whether which before of fauor not of duety he suffered her to haue Phi. For that case also in Deuteronomie expresse charge was giuen to slea all false Prophetes and whosoeuer should auert the people from the true worship of God induce them to receiue straunge Gods and newe religions and to destroie all their followers were they neuer so neere vs by nature And in the same place that if anie Citie shoulde reuolt from the receiued and prescribed worship of God begin to admit new religions it should be vtterly wasted by fire and sword Theo. The commaundement in Deuteronomie toucheth not heretiks but manifest Apostataes such as cleane forsooke the verie name and outward profession of God and serued straunge and new gods and the rigour of this precept I meane the punishment doeth not binde vs that are vnder the Gospell by the iudgement of the best learned that euer taught in the church of Christ. For by the same law of God blasphemers adulterers witches strikers and cursers of Parentes should die Which penalties your owne church did neuer execute nor any christian Magistrate that euer wee reade of Touching heretikes you heard Sainct Augustines opinion before that it neuer pleased any good man in the
reportes wee may hardly trust since your speciall instaunces be so corrupted and wrested And could you shewe that which you speake of as you can not you must also proue it well done or at leâ—t to haue beene liked and allowed of the Church of Christ before we can receiue it The Apostles rule is strong against it You must bee subiect not onely for wrath but for conscience sake Many thousand Martyrs Bishoppes others submitted themselues and endured the vilest torments that coulde bee deuised against them as the ten persecutions of Christes Church vnder heathen Princes most clearly witnesse that euer any of their subiects rebelled against those bloody persecutors in respect of religion must be your care to shewe Wee reading all the monumentes of those tymes verily find none and by your silence it should appeare your selues know none otherwise we do not thinke you woulde disfurnish your cause and trouble the reader with impertinent matters That the Citizens of Antioch defended their Church with armes against the Emperour Galerius his officers I find it writteÌ„ in no good Author neither do you quote the place that Storie you may put in your Legende as taken thence by most likelyhood The temples of their bodies which were farre more precious they did not defend from the furious and insatiable rage of Diocletian Maximinus but as well at Antioche as in all other places subiect to the Romane Empire the christian men women mildly gladly suffered those torments deaths and shames which in our eyes neither flesh could beare nor nature brooke so that wee haue cause rather to maruaile at their patience than to mistrust their disobedience Phi. S. Basil and S. Ambrose people defended them against the inuasions of Heretikes Theo. After Valens the Emperour had twise decreed to banish S. Basil and was the first tyme stopped of his course by the suddaine sicknes of his sonne and terror of his wife and the second time by a straunge trembling of hande and heart as he was subscribing the sentence of deportation against him hee neuer after offered to meddle with Saint Basill but suffered him quietly to enioy his Bishopricke Yet fell there out after this a contention betweene the Lieutenaunt of Pontus and Saint Basill about the liberties of the sanctuarie for a Noble woman that had taken the Church for her refuge to saue her selfe from one that woulde haue forced her to mariage against her will The Deputie required the woman to bee deliuered the Bishoppe replied that hee might not violate the Lawes of GOD and man The Deputie stomacking Saint Basill and the more for his stout defence otherwise of the Christian faith sent for the Bishoppe to his Tribunall and commaunding him to bee stript threatned to whippe him and to teare his flesh with Iron hookes This indignitie the people could no longer abide but seeing their Pastor thus shamefully handled without the Emperours commandemeÌ„t or knowledge vpon the priuate displeasure of a Deputie for the liberties of the Church established by the Romane Lawes the whole citie men and women fell to an vprore and were like enough to haue done the Deputie some mischiefe but that Saint Basil with much adoe repressing the people deliuered his persecutor from that perill This is the true report of Saint Basils case euen out of the same author which you auouche Gregorie Nazianzene Their griefe you see was not against the Emperours power or fact but against the malice of a Lieutenant presuming vpon a priuate grudge without any warrant from the Prince not onely to doe that which the Emperour in his owne person had refrained but in most spitefull and seruile manner to abuse their Bishop against all order of Lawe And this tumult S. Basil neither procured nor praised but asswaged with his presence and offered himselfe to the Deputies pleasure Of S. Ambrose wee spake before by occasion and thither we send you It is most vntrue that the people of Millan either did or might take armes against the Emperour though hee were then but a child and therefore might make no Lawes for Religion or otherwise without Theodosius ioynt Emperour with him in possession of the scepter before him Which exception neither S. Ambrose nor other godly bishops vsed against him but submitted themselues with al meekenes when in reason they might haue taken this aduantage Of the people S. Ambrose himselfe giueth this testimonie In singulis vobis Iob reuixit in singulis sancti illius patientia virtus refulsit Quid enim praesentis dici potuit a viris Christianis quà m quod â—odie in vobis locutus est Spiritus sanctus Rogamus Auguste non pugnamus non timemus sed rogamus Hoc Christianos decet In euery one of you Iob is aliue againe in eche of you his patience and vertue shined What coulde bee sayde fitter by Christian men than that which the holy Ghost this day spake in you We beseech O Emperour we offer not armes Wee feare not to die but we intreate thy clemencie This beseemeth Christians to desire tranquillitie of peace faith but to bee constant in the truth euen vnto death And for his part when hee heard that his Church was taken vp by the Emperours souldiers he fet only somewhat the deeper sighes sayd to such as exhorted him to goe thither deliuer vp my Church I may not but sight I ought not Phi. But the people were in a commotion which appeareth by that S. Ambrose answered when they willed him to asswage their furie It lay in him not to incite them but hee had no meanes to represse them Theo. Truth it is that the people flocked to their Churches and chose rather to bee slaine in the place than to leaue them vnto Arians But that they offered armes or attempted any force either for S. Ambrose or against Valentinian is a manifest vntrueth The merchaunts were amerced and emprisoned the Nobles were hardly threatned and S. Ambrose himselfe charged as with a sedition and yet all the violence that was offered was this The people passing from one Church to an other met a Chapleine of the Arrians and some vnruly persons as in such heates it can not otherwise be chosen beganne to illude and abuse the man but the Bishop presently sent his Priestes and Deacons and rescued him from that iniurie which yet the Emperour tooke so grieuously that hee layd a number of them in Irons and imposed a great mulet vpon the whole Citie to bee paide within three dayes Farther force was none offered by the people of Millan and yet of that small disorder Saint Ambrose saith If they thought him to bee the inciter or stirrer of the people they should straightway reuenge it on him or banish him into what wildernesse they would And to that end he departed home to bed to his owne house that if any man woulde haue him into exile
it were done by forsaking threatning compelling or inuading him the Storie doeth not expresse neither may you suppose what you list without any proofe Had they assaulted him with armes it had beene as easie to haue slaine him there as to haue driuen him thence but no doubt Peter their Bishoppe kept them from that which Moses a conuert of the Saracenes not long before bitterly reprooued in Lucius Phi. You meane Moses the Moncke that Mauia the Queene of the Saracens required to haue for the Bishopppe of her Nation whose fayth the Bishoppe of Rome confirmed in the same letters with Peters election Theo. I doe Phil. What of him Theo. When hee was brought to Lucius to bee made Bishoppe hee sayde I thinke my selfe vnworthie of this function but if it bee profitable for my Countrie that I take it Lucius shall neuer lay handes on mee to make mee Bishoppe for his right hand is embrued with blood Lucius answering that he should not raile but first learne what religion he taught I aske not a reason sayth Moses of thy religion thy doings against thy brethren conuince what religion thou hast A christian doeth not strike doeth not slaunder doeth not fight The seruant of God may not fight But thy woorkes openly shewe themselues by those whome thou hast banished whom thou hast cast to bee deuoured of beasts and consumed with fire If Moses thus abhorred Lucius for fighting and striking what would hee haue sayd to Peter for bearing armes and rebelling if he had beene so good a warrier as you make him Phi. So did Atticus Bishop of Constantinople craue ayde of Theodosius the yonger against the king of the Persians that persecuted his Catholike subiects and was thereby forcibly depriued and his innocent subiects deliuered Theo. The christians of Persia being barbarously persecuted by Bararanes an Infidel and put as Theodorete sheweth to straunge and vnusuall torments fled their Countrie and sauing themselues within the Romane Dominion besought the Christian Emperour they might bee harboured within his land and not bee yeelded vnto the furie of their king The Persian presently sent Legates to haue them backe that were departed his Realme Atticus the Bishoppe of Constantinople opened their cause to the Emperour and laboured what he could for them Theodosius the Emperour woulde not deliuer them as being suppliants to him and no offendours against their king but only that they professed the Christian Religion and hauing besides iust cause to make warre vpon the Persians for that they spoiled his merchants and woulde not restore his Goldminers which they hired of him bid open battell to them and caused the king to be glad with peace and to cease his persecution against the Christians Here is nothing for your purpose vnlesse you say that subiects may rebel for Religion because straungers may bee harboured for religion which were a mad kind of conclusion The Persians asked not armes against their King though a Tyrant but refuge for themselues neither did they assault their Prince on the one side when the Romanes inuaded on the other but with praier expected what end God would giue Atticus was no subiect to the king of Persia and therefore whatsoeuer hee did against a straunger and an enemie is no president for subiects to do the like to their Princes and yet all that he did was this Atticus Episcopus supplicantes cupidé suscepit totus in eo erat vt pro viribus ipsis succurreret Imperatori Theodosio quae gererentur significauit Atticus the Bishoppe embraced their request for themselues with great good will and laboured what hee could to helpe them and signified their state to Theodosius the Emperour Theodosius was a lawfull magistrate and had other and those iust causes to warre vpon the Persian and in that hee refused to deliuer the profugient and innocent Christians to the slaughter hee had the Lawe of nature and nations for his defence And lastly the king of Persia was neither depriued of his kingdome as you falsely report nor his subiects discharged frō their obedience but a peace concluded wherin the King was contended to cease from pursuing the Christians All this you shall find not in the second booke as you quote but in the seuenth where Socrates describeth the occasion and conclusion of this Persian warre From him Nicephorus taketh his light and more than Socrates said before he neither doth nor could affirme Phi. So did holy Pope Leo the first perswade the Emperour called Leo also to take armes against the Tyraunt of Alexandria for the deliuerie of the oppressed Catholiques from him and the heretiques Eutichians who then threw downe Churches and Monasteries and did other great sacrileges Whose wordes for examples sake I will set downe O Emperour saith Sainct Leo if it be laudable for thee to inuade the heathens how much more glorious shall it bee to deliuer the Church of Alexandria from the heauie yoke of outragious heretiques by the calamitie of which Church all the Christians in the world are iniuried Theo. Leo was so holy that hee neuer taught any man to beare armes against his Prince and yet it did nothing hurt his holynes to pray the Emperour to pursue with due punishment the wicked vprore that was made in Alexandria by Timotheus an heretike that placing himselfe in the Bishoprike and killing Proterius the true Bishoppe at the font in the Church caused the carkas by some of his faction to bee drawen along the streetes in a rope and to bee so cutte and mangled that the very intrayles drayled vpon the stones and the rest of the bodie to bee burnt and the ashes scattered into the ayre That villanous and diuelish fact Leo the Bishoppe of Rome beseecheth Leo the Emperour with all seueritie to reuenge assuring him that it is as glorious a conquest before Christ to punish such outragious heretikes as to represse miscreantes and Infidels But howe this shoulde serue your turnes wee can not imagine Will you reason thus Leo the Bishoppe of Rome perswaded the Emperour to chastise some of his subiects that were heretikes and murderers Ergo the people may assault their Prince with armes Take heede left Timotheus heresie and furie reuiue in you again if you fal to liking such consequents Phi. In briefe so did S. Gregorie the great moue Genadius the Exarch to make warres specially against heretikes as a very glorious thing Theo. You speake truer than you are ware of In deede Gregorie the great wrate to Genadius the Exarch in the selfe same sense that Leo before did to Leo the Emperour which is that Magistrates ought to resist and punish the aduersaries of Christes Church as well as the troublers and disturbers of the Common-wealth neither is there any difference in their writings or meanings saue that Leo wrate to the Prince himselfe and Gregorie to his Deputie And since you be come
to Gregorie it is high tyme you begin to awake and remember your selfe that for sixe hundreth yeeres you haue not nor can not shew vs any one example where heretical Prince was deposed or subiect allowed to beare armes against his Soueraigne Which is a sufficient conuiction that Pagans and heretikes were all this while honoured obeyed and endured by the Church of Christ if they were Princes Or if that collection bee not good heare Saint Augustines confession of him that was the very worst of them I meane Iulian the Apostata and learne that they which suffered and obeyed him woulde neuer resist nor rebell against any Iulianus extitit infidelis Imperator nonne extitit Apostata iniquus Idolatra Milites Christiani seruierunt Imperatori infidels Vbi veniebatur ad causam Christi non agnoscebant nisi illum qui in caelo erat Quando volebat vt idola colerent vt thurificarent praeponebant illi Deum Quando autem dicebat producite aciem ite contra illam gentem statim obtemperabant Distinguebant Dominum aeternum a Domino temporali tamen subditi erant propter Dominum aeternum etiam Domino temporali Iulian was an vnbeleeuing Emperour was hee not an Apostata an oppressour and an Idolater Christian souldiers serued that vnbeleeuing Emperor When they came to the cause of Christ they would acknowledge no Lord but him that is heauen When hee woulde haue them to worshippe Idoles and to sacrifice they preferred God before their Prince But when he said goe foorth to fight inuade such a nation they presently obeyed They distinguished their eternall Lorde from their temporall and yet were they subiect euen vnto their temporal Lorde for his sake that was their eternall Lord and master The like testimonie your Law bringeth out of S. Ambrose Iulian the Emperour though hee were an Idolater had yet vnder him Christian souldiers to whom when hee sayd goe fight for the defence of the common-wealth they did obey him but when hee sayde goe fight against the Christians then they regarded the Emperour in heauen before him Phi. The holy Bishoppes might most lawfully and so sometymes they did excommunicate the Arrian Emperours and haue warranted their Catholike subiects to defend themselues by armes against them But they alwayes did not so because they had no meanes by reason of the greater forces of the persecutours As there no question but the Emperours Constantius Valens Iulian and others might haue beene by the Bishoppes excommunicated and deposed and all their people released from their obedience if the Church or Catholiques had had competent forces to haue resisted Theo. Uayne shiftes you haue brought vs many but none vayner than that which here you broche You vndertooke to shewe vs auncient examples that Princes were iudicially deposed by Priestes and impugned with armes by their owne subiectes You bee nowe come to the vttermost pitch of Antiquitie and finding your selfe not able to bee as good as your worde you tell vs that though Bishoppes did it not yet they might most lawfully haue warranted their Catholike subiectes to defend themselues by armes against the Arrian Emperours But sir you were to bring vs their examples what they did not your vants what they might haue done The point we began with was what Bishops in this case might doe You to shew what they might doe promised vs the particulars of auncient ages what they had doone and hauing perused six hundered yeeres after Christ and perceauing no such deede doone you come with a returne at the last that though they did it not yet they might haue doone it whereas we rather collect they might not doe it because they did it not For had it beene most lawful as you say we can proue it most needfull they should haue doone it The blaspheming of Christ the murdering of his saincts the seducing of many thousand soules which things were not only committed by their meanes but also maintained by their power that were suffered to beare and vse the sword for the strengthning and establishing of their error were causes sufficient to moue the Bishops to doe what they lawfully might to preuent these mischifes and saue the Bishops you cannot from the blemish of permitting and increasing the pestilent heresies of Arius and others if they did not what they might in dewtie to withstand and depose those Princes that were the chiefe Patrones of those impieties Phi. There is no question but the Emperours Constantius Valens Iulian and others might haue beene deposed by the Bishops and all their people released from their obedience if the Church or Catholiques had had competent forces to haue resisted Theo. You falsely and wickedly slaunder the Martyrs of Christs church when you auouch they wanted not will but power to resist their Princes The Christians had forces sufficient and many fit opportunities offered them to set those hereticall Emperours besides their Seates and woulde not Constans the West Emperour was of power sufficient to haue repressed Constantius his brother for feare of whom Athanasius was restored to his Bishoprike by Constantius and with whom if the Catholikes of the East would haue but ioyned themselues it had beene most easie for them to haue taken the Scepter from Constantius When Constans was slaine Magnentius the Tyrant surprised all Italie subdued Affrica and Lybia and had Fraunce in subiection and the souldiers of Illyricum erected Betranion against Constantius in which distresse if the Christians would but haue forsaken Constantius and not ventered their liues for him he must haue beene depriued of the West Empire if not of the East also Athanasius being charged that he with others secretly by letters incited this Magnentius to take armes against the Emperour answered as I shewed you before Cast not this suspition O Emperour vpon the whole Church as though such things were written or thought on by Christian men and specially by Bishopes The like occasion was offered the Christians to displace Constantius when Gallus who was both Cesar and next to the Crowne beganne to aduance himselfe to the Empire but they tooke it as you see by Athanasius wordes to be no Christian mans part to thinke on bearing armes against their Emperour though an hereticke Of the Christian souldiers vnder Iulian you hearde S. Augustine say they serued their temporall Lorde though an Idolater and an Apostata not for lacke of force to resist but for respect of their euerlasting Lorde in heauen Otherwise the Christian souldiers had Iulian in his voyage against the Persians farre from home and from helpe and might haue done with him what they woulde and yet they chose rather to spend their liues for him than to lift vp their handes against him and the Christian worlde in his absence stirred not against him but with patience endured his oppression and with silence expected his returne Phi. They were heathen souldiers that were with Iulian in the Persian warres Theo.
Westmonasterium de seruanda Ecclesiae libertate quando consecrati fuistis vncti in regema predecessore nostro Theobaldo Keepe in memorie the confession which you made and layd vpon the altar at Westminster touching the keeping of holy churches liberties when you were consecrated annointed king by my predecessour Theobald Theoph. Your Canterburie Saint was very carefull to put the King in mynd of Church-mens libertie but hee was neuer so religious as to remember what was Church-mens duetie to God and the magistrate Hee could call on others to keepe touche but him-selfe procured a dispensation that his othe shoulde not tye him though it were neuer so lawfull and honest And surely this was a seemely sight for a subiect that had violated his owne fayth and trueth to importune his Soueraigne to obserue couenaunts but such is your store for want of better you must bring periures to talke of promises Phi. The Patriarkes of Constantinople tooke an instrument of such as were to be crowned Emperours specially in the times of heresie wherein they made the like promise and profession to keepe and defend the fayth and decrees of holy Councels So did the Patriarch Euphemius in the coronation of Athanasius Nicephorus in the inuesting of Michael and others in the creation of other Emperours of the East And Zonaras writeth that the Patriarche of Constantinople plainly tolde Isaac Commenus the Emperour that as by his handes hee receiued the Empire so if hee gouerned not well by him it shoulde bee taken from him againe Theo. From Popes you come to Patriarches from Rome to Constantinople and there in steede of deposing them after their coronation you shew what was exacted at their handes before they were crowned and that not euer nor by any superiour calling but the Bishop of that citie offering once or twise rather to loose his life than to crowne one that he feared would innouate the fayth or afflict the Church Euphemius was the first that gaue this onset and the first that repented it When Ariadna the Empresse that buried her husbande aliue being fallen into a traunce would needes exalt Anastasius a man of no great reckoning before and bestowe both the scepter and her selfe vppon him Euphemius the Patriarch whether it were that hee claymed a consent in that election as wel as others or suspected Anastasius inclination and so thought it easier to exact a confession of his fayth before than after his coronation required him vnder his handewriting to promise that hee woulde alter no poynt of Religion established in the Church Which Anastasius then yeelded to doe but as soone as hee was crowned the first thing almost that hee did he banished Euphemius for his bolde aduenture What you would conclude out of this fact for the deposition of Princes I knowe not well I wotte the Prince depriued the Patriarche and not the Patriarch the Prince though hee fell from the faith which he professed and promised at his coronation to continue Phi. Hee did that hee did by violence Theo. I commend not his doings onely I woulde haue you marke that though he ioyned tyrannie with heresie neither Patriarch nor Pope did depose him Philand The Pope did excommunicate him Theo. So you sayd before but you prooued it by no sufficient testimonie yet graunt hee were I thence inferre the teachers people of the Primatiue Church endured and obeyed an hereticall and excommunicate person as their lawfull Emperour which cleane euerteth all your platfourme Phi. Nicephorus required the like writing of Michael Theo. Michael was chosen to the Empire Stauracius yet liuing and not allowing their act and when hee came the next day to the Church to bee Crowned the Patriarch required his writing that hee woulde neither spill Christian blood nor chaunge the fayth of the Church which Michael willingly graunted Philand The Patriarch then prescribed conditions to the Prince Theo. When the Empire went by election the people might prescribe needefull and honest conditions to which their princes should subscribe before they were crowned Phi. But I talke of the Patriarch Theo. The Patriarch did it not often There were fourtie Christian Emperours from Constantine to Michael and this writing neuer required but of two and those not succeeding but elected Whose coronation the people might tie to those Christian and godly conditions And though the Church were the meetest place and the Patriarch the fittest person in matters of fayth to take the Princes subscription yet was it doone in the presence of the whole people and not without their consents and then onely when some feare of alteration vrged them vnto it The Patriarch of himselfe had neither right nor power to draw the Prince to such couenants as hee would limit and therefore it was necessary the people should ioyne their authoritie with his in that action Philand The Patriarch would not crowne him vnlesse he would subscribe Theo. If he would not an other might The ceremonie of setting the Crowne on the Princes head is a seruice due to him that is chosen not any superioritie in him that doth it and if it bee refused by him that of order is bound to doe it any Christian Bishoppe may perfite it and the other bee punished for his recusance Phi. The Patriarch by your leaue had more interest to the crowning of the Emperour than you mention For Polyeuctus the Patriarch would not suffer Ioannes Zimisces so much as to enter the Church till he had banished the murderers of the former Emperour and thrust the Empresse out of the Court and torne the booke which the Bishoppes were in trouble for and giuen all his goods to the poore Theo. The Empire of Constantinople was nowe 970. yeres after Christ caried along neither by lawfull succession nor election but become a very pray for him that woulde murder his master and defile his mistresse without all respect of dutie or honestie Zimisces not content secretly to keepe Nicephorus wife with her helpe most villanously flew the Emperour in his bed commaunding his men besides the wounds they gaue him in the head and elsewhere with the hilts of their swordes to dash out his teeth breake his iaw-bones Upon this horrible and diuelish slaughter when he came to the Church intending to haue the crowne the Patriarch would not suffer him being polluted with blood to come within the Church Where he confessing that others did it by instigation of the Empresse the Patriarch required that she might bee foorthwith banished and they pursued and the booke torne that entangled the Bishoppes and that he would thinke on some punishment for himselfe Zimisces yeelded to all that the Patriarch asked and for himselfe promised to giue the goods which he had gotten whiles hee was a priuate man to the poore How this serueth your turne I see not The Patriarch kept him not from the Crowne but from the Church
a matter of more dependence than may bee ouer-ruled with a fewe piked and well couched tearmes You must therefore exactly and directly prooue the Popes authoritie to depose Princes which you shall neuer bee able to doe or else hee for attempting it is the man of sinne exalting him-selfe in the Church of GOD and you for defending and executing the same lacke not many degrees of high and haynous treason The carying of this in your owne heartes and reconciling of others within the realme that they might bee readie to receiue this impression at your mouthes when tyme should serue were the very causes why some of your fellowes tasted of her maiesties iust and prouoked indignation and if it be tyrannie for the Prince to put them to death that lay plottes to haue her crowne and her life and write bookes to auouch it lawful for themselues and all others so to doe when the Pope sayth the word then her highnes hath done you some wrong but if by diuine and humane recordes it bee damnable in the subiect to attempt or abet any such thing and most laudable in the Prince to reuenge the consenter and encourager as well as the doer then for religion hath none of your side beene martyred in England as your shamelesse eloquence would enforce onely some were executed for affirming publishing and furdering the Popes Antichristian power to rule realmes and depriue Princes which you call religion because you would plant it in the peoples hearts with lesse labour and more liking though in deede it be pestilent pride in him and a plaine contempt of God and the Prince in you that should obey Phi. M. Iohn Slade and M. Iohn Body two famous confessours were they not condemned to death in publike iudgement for confessing their fayth of the Popes spiritual soueraigntie and for denying the Queene to bee head of the Church of England or to haue any spirituall regiment and that twise at two diuers sessions a rare case in our countrie the later sentence being to refourme the former as we may gesse in such strange proceedings which they perceiued to bee erroneous and vnsufficient in their owne Lawes Theo. Promotions are rife at Rome you would not else so soone aduance two frowarde and rude companions for masters martyrs Their iudgement was twise giuen not as you peruersly yet after your manner interprete the later to reforme the former as erroneous and vnsufficient but for that they complayned they were drawen afore they were ware and against their wils to vtter speaches against the Princes sworde for which they were condemned the grace mercie of the Prince was such that her highnesse was content they should bee tried the seconde tyme to see whether those words were vnaduisedly and vnwillingly spoken as they pretended or of set mischiefe malice and warned by the Iudge to take good heede and looke wel about thē before they rashly offered themselues to the danger of the Lawes Where if they fell againe openly and lustily to auouch that the Pope was supreme head of the Church of England and consequently the Queene had no right to make lawes as shee had doone but was subiect to the Popes Decrees and censures which is the maine ground of all your rebellion and his presumption who besides you that are yoked in the same cause with them will say they died for religion and not rather for their wilful charging the Prince with vsurpation yeelding the Pope that dominion which hee claimeth ouer kingdomes and you would faine establish with your vntrue surmises Phi. The question of Peters keyes is it not a matter of meere religion Theo. If you draw Princes crownes and swordes within the limits of Peters keyes you leaue religion and hatch rebellion Phi. Yet is it a question whereof diuines do doubt Theo. You may doubt what you list to flatter the Pope but your doubting may not stoppe Princes from defending that which is their owne against the Popes vniust claime and vnlawfull force The Prince striueth not with the Pope neither for the dignitie which hee taketh aboue all Bishoppes nor for the power which hee seeketh to bind and loose sinnes in heauen though therein hee doeth the Church of Christ great wrong and oppresseth his brethren but onely for her right to commaund and punish within her own Realme in ecclesiasticall causes and crimes as well as in temporall which I haue largely prooued euery Prince may within his owne Dominion and for the wrong that her maiestie receiued when shee was depriued of her crowne by him that had no warrant from Christ to disquiet her state or dispose her crown These bee the pointes comprised in her highnes Lawes Against these if your rash and ill aduised brethren woulde runne headlong to their owne perdition when they were admonished by the magistrate to haue better regarde to their wordes they haue the iust rewarde of their vnfaythfull and disloyall heartes and my assertion is true that these two ignorant yet obstinate persons with some others which came not to any particular mention of the Popes bull against the Prince but generally stoode in defence of that power to be good and lawfull from whence the bull proceeded died in the same quarell with the rest that purposely promoted defended and assisted the bull and so can bee no witnesses of Christes trueth and glory which woulde needes cast away their liues for the Popes pride and tyrannie Phi. It is hard dealing to make such trifles treasons Theo. Call you those trifles when Princes shall lose their kingdomes and their people freely rebell and you defende the warres of their owne subiects against them to be iust and honourable by vertue of that power which you attribute to the Pope when you make him head of the Church Had you liued in Saint Augustines dayes you would haue sayde it had beene harder dealing that one word against the Christian Emperours although they were dead shoulde be counted treason Thou doest promise sayth Augustine to Petilian that thou wilt reckon many of our Emperours and iudges WHICH BY PERSECVTING YOV PERISHED and concealing the Emperours thou meanest two Iudges or Deputies Why didst thou not name the Emperours of our cōmunion were thou afraid to bee accused as guiltie OF TREASON where is your courage which feare not to kill your selues To say that Emperours PERISHED FOR PERSECVTING was Treason in his tyme In our age you thinke it much that reproching of Princes as tyrants and heretikes ayding the Pope with your perswasions absolutions rebellions to take their crownes from them should be punished or adiudged Treason Phi. There is no law so rigorous but your diuinitie wil serue you to defend it Theo. What is against your duetie to God and your Prince in that I am a diuine I may iustly debate what punishment the Prince will appoint for such offences as be committed against her neither you nor I haue to doe with it
purpose Phi. Many you know report for vs that Charles and his councell condemned the breakers of images and a number of your owne side confesse the same Theo. In stories we must not respect the number vehemencie but the antiquitie and sinceritie of the authors Two hundreth that liued long after were not acquainted with the deedes themselues can not counteruaile two that liued in the same age and had the full perusing of their actes Againe your later writers were all addicted to images and therefore they would not acknowlege that euer the councell of Franckford condemned the councell of Nice for adoring images Lastly it is not altogether a lie when they say the councell of Franckford refused the councell of Constantinople For where the councell of Constantinople said it was idolatrie to haue them and the councell of Nice defined it lawfull to worship them the councell of Franckford as Hincmarus confesseth liked neither but held it a thing indifferent to haue them adiudged it a meere impiety to worship them Phi Then hauing of images you graunt was catholike though the worshipping of them in some places were not so taken Theo. The hauing of images was neuer catholike and the worshipping of them was euer wicked by the iudgement of Christes church Phi. At this time the West church did not gainesay the hauing of them Theo. The West church at this time vsed them only as ornamentes and monumentes for the ruder sort to learne the liues and deathes of ancient vndoubted Martyrs but if you forget not your selfe you bee 800. yeres too short of catholik euen then by the churches of EnglaÌ„d France Spaine and Germanie was the worshipping of images detested and refuted as contrary to the christian faith Phi. By worshipping and adoring of images we doe not meane that godly honor should be giuen to them but only a kinde of external dutie reuerence with the gesture of the body as kneeling kissing censing religious holding vp of eyes and handes before them with such like signes of outwarde submission Theo. Neither do I thinke that Adrian the Bishop of Rome or the Grecians were so blasâ—hemous brutish idolaters that they decreed diuine honor to dead sensles stocks though your SchoolemeÌ„ not long before our age came to that grosse â—ilâ—hy doctrine salued it with a vaine translatioÌ„ of the honor that was done to the image as passing from the image to the principall it selfe represented by the image But the Grecians I thinke ment an externall regard reuerence such as is giuen to the sacred vessels bookes elementes that are vsed in baptisme at the Lords Supper For those be their owne comparisons though their words be adoration veneration yet that externall corporall honor giuen to images the West Bishops abhorred as neither catholike nor christiaÌ„ and the church of Christ long before them condemned as hereticall Gregory the first 200. yeares before Charles called the councel of FraÌ„ckford thought it not amisse to haue painted histories suffred in the church but in no wise the pictures to be worshipped Your brotherhood saith he to Serenus Bishop of Massilia seeing certaine worshippers of images brake the said images and cast theÌ„ out of the church The zeale which you had that nothing made with hands should be worshipped we praise but we thinke you should not haue broken those images For painting is therefore vsed in churches that they which are vnlearned may by sight read that in the walles which in bookes they caÌ„not Your brotherhood should therefore haue spared the breaking of theÌ„ yet restrained the people froÌ„ worshipping them that the rude might haue had how to come by the knowledge of the story yet the people not sinne in worshipping the picture Painted stories Gregory thought might be tolerated in the church for the simple to learne the deathes and martyrdoms of many Saints which in bookes they could not but as for worshipping them he confesseth the people should sinne in doing it and the Bishop did well in keeping them from it And treating in an other place of the same matter he saith The children of the church now disperced are to be called togither and taught by the testimonies of the sacred scriptures that nothing made with hands may be worshipped And so concludeth adoration of images by all meanes auoide S. Ambrose speaking of that crosse on which Christ was crucified saith Helena found the title worshipped the king not the wood surely for that is the error of the Gentiles and vanitie of the wicked S. Augustine requiring the Mâ—nichees to shew what one thing they could mislike in the catholik church Bring me not saith he such christians as either knowe not or keepe not the force of their profession Rake not after the rude sort which euen in true religion are intangled with superstition My selfe know many that are worshippers of tombes and pictures I warne you that you cease to speake euill of the catholike church by carping these mens maners whome the church her selfe condemneth and seeketh euery day to correct theÌ„ as vngracious children Marcellina is reckoned and detested as an heretike by Ireneus Epiphanius and Augustine for hauing the images of Christ and Paul in her closet and setting garlandes on their heades and burning incense to them Marcellina sayth Austen was of Carpocrates sect and worshipped the images of Iesu Paul Homere and Pythagoras with bowing her selfe burning incense So sayth Epiphanius Of this sect was Marcillina of Rome Shee made secretly the images of Iesu and Paul and Homere and Pithagoras and burned incense to theÌ„ worshipped theÌ„ And charging the whole sect of Carpocrates with the same fault he saith The heretikes called Gnostici Besides all this haue images painted with colours and some of gold and siluer which they say are the images of Iesu and made in the time of Pontius Pilate when Christ was conuersant amongst men These they keepe closely And so doth Ireneus also witnesse they all restrayning and adiudging it to be heresie and idolatry to cense bow to the image of Christ or Paul as wel as to the image of Homer or Aristotle Phil. Not so neither Theo. Yeas euen so This in manifest wordes is reckoned by these three fathers for a speciall point part of their wickednes as well as the worshipping of other Philosophers images Phi. Put you no distinction betweene the images of Christ other prophane persons Theo. The worshipping of either is heathenisme idolatry Phi. Call you the image of Christ an Idole Theo. Not vnlesse it be worshipped but if it be then is it an Idoll incense burnt vnto it is idolatrie Phi. How proue you that Theo. If the iudgement of christes church in accompting them heretikes for that act do not weigh heauie enough with you the law of God coÌ„firmeth the same Phi. Where The. You be
likenes of his owne face and sent to king Abagarus as Damascene and Nicephorus witnesse Theoph. You may well sweare I will neither beleeue you nor Damascene Damascene sayth Fertur quaedam historia there is such a storie spread abroad but hee neither telleth by whom it was made nor of what credite it is and Eusebius that first tooke this storie of Abagarus and that at large out of the monuments of the Citie Edessa reporteth no such thing yea the Church of Rome her selfe some hundreths before Damascene repelled that Epistle of Christ to Abagarus then extant by name as Apocryphall And therfore you bolster an error and abuse the people of God with forgeries long before condemned though since receiued by Nicephorus and other fablers among the Grecians who wrate all they found without iudgement or without all shame fayned that they neuer found except it were in some wicked and witlesse legend such as your Church of late dayes had good stoare Philand And so the image of our Ladie made by Saint Luke you will say is a fable and yet Simeon Methaphrastes doeth confirme it Theoph. Leaue these late and obscure Lyars and bring some-what woorth the answering Philand Saint Basil sayth the painting and adoring of Images is a tradition of the Apostles and so doeth Damascene The woordes of S. Basil are Quam ob causam historias Imaginum illorum honoro palam adoro Hoc enim nobis traditum a sanctis Apostolis non est prohibendum sed in omnibus eccleâ—ijs nostris eorum historias erigimus For which cause I honour and openly adore the stories of their Images And this being deliuered vs from the Apostles is not prohibited but in all our Churches wee erect their histories Theoph. Can you turne vs to the place in Saint Basill Phi. The epistle is not extant but Adrian the Bishoppe of Rome whose credite is sufficient for a greater matter than this doeth alleage iâ—â—ut of his writings against Iulian the Apostata Theo. Adrian and you bâ—th shall pardon vs for beleeuing you when wee find no such woordes in all S. Basill Phi. They might be then in Saint Basil though they be not now Theo. If the woordes did agree with the spirit of Saint Basil or with the sâ—aâ—e of those tymes or with the rest of the fathers and auncient teachers in Christes Church wee woulde not so much dislike them though they were not found in Saint Basils woorkes but nowe seeing the woordes to be sensibly false if not vtterly wicked and to haue no conuenience with the doctrine of those that taught in the same time or neere about his age and knowing in the contention of the Grecians for images somewhat before Adrian what framing and â—â—ling of fathers there was to beare out either side wee thinke it easier for the Bishoppe of Rome to bee deceiued in a Greeke writer that liued 450. yeeres before him by some false reporter lewd translator or cunning forgeâ—er than for Basil to bee so great a straunger in the Church of Christ and so manifest a despiser of Gods precepts that hee would openly defend and himselfe vse adoration of Saintes Images without any scruple as deliuered from the Apostles who were farre from hauing farther from teaching the godly to worship the Images of Prophetes Apostles or Martyrs as this deluder dreameth And therefore either shewe vs the Epistle where this is written or else leaue loding the learned fathers names with such vnlearned corruptions Philand Were there not many thinges written by the Catholique Fathers that nowe are perished Theoph. And as many thinges forged in their names that were neuer written by them as appeareth in all their woorkes to this day by the iudgement of your very friendes Phil. This is the next way to call all their writinges and so the whole Christian sayth in question Theoph. You woulde faine haue vs swallowe your monkish impieties vnder the colour of their authorities but the wisedome of God hath better prouided for his church than so The rule of our fayth is the voyce of our Shepheard By that we iudge of the writings of all others be they fâ—ithâ—â—ll or Infidels If this were written in Basil wee would not receiue it vntill wee had tried it by that touchstone finding no such thing in all his woorkes why should wee regard it Philand There it was though nowe it bee not Theophi There it is not wheresoeuer it was and your alleager hath no suâ—h credite with vs that wee should trust him Philand Trust no man I praie you that is against you Theo. Wee trust not you to be your owne caruers Phi. This authoritie was alleaged and allowed to be S. Basils in a general Councell 800. yeres agoe Theo. That Councell was neuer receiued nor confessed to be general by the west Churches but reiected and condemned as a wicked coniuration against the faith and the letter there framed in Adrians name besides that it sauoreth altogether of your late forge at Rome is a pestilent and shamelesse depriuation both of fathers and Scriptures Phi. You bee very choice that can like nothing except it be exquisite The. You be worse than grosse if you take such palpable lies to be the fortresses of your faith Omit that fond and false report of Constantines leprosie purposing to bee washed in a bath of infants blood and dehorted from it in the night as hee slept by some that appeared to him whome hee afterwarde knewe to bee Peter and Paul by their Images which Siluester Bishoppe of Rome shewed him and that thereupon Constantine being first a persecuter of the Christians was conuerted and baptized by Syluester and beganne to buylde Churches and decked them with Images in euery place lewder and viler fables than which your legend hath none the rest of Adrians allegations out of the scriptures and Fathers what are they but open iniuries and mockeries of GOD and man The Scriptures which hee bringeth to proue the making and adoring of Images bee these God made man of the slime of the earth after his owne Image Adam of his owne free will called all the beastes of the fielde and foules of the ayre by their proper names Abel of his owne accord presented a sacrifice vnto God of the firstlings of his flocke Noe after the flood of his owne head buylt an altar vnto the Lorde and offered thereon So Abraham of himselfe erected an altar in the honour and glorie of God Iacob also when hee had in his sleepe seene the Angels of GOD ascending descending by the ladder after hee rose of his owne motion set vp a stone on the ground where his head lay and powred oyle on it and named the place Bethel and wee doe not reade that God for this cause was angrie with him Againe the same Iacob worshipped in the toppe of his staffe
Art Phi. You vnderstand vs not When wee giue diuine honour to the image in respect of Christ we giue it to Christ and not to the image Theo. God graunt you vnderstand your selues You first dishonour the Sonne of God by exhibiting the heauenly seruice that is due to him to an Image made with handes and then with a shift of wordes you thinke to delude him in telling that hee may not choose but like of your doinges because you ment it vnto him when you did it to a dumbe creature for his sake But awake out of your frensie God will not thus be mocked by your relations or intentions Hee is zealous of his honour he will not resigne it to any other and namely not to grauen or carued images If against his worde against his will against his truth and glorie you impart it to anie other or take vpon you to conueie it to him by creatures or images as if hee were not present in all places with might and maiesty to receiue the seruice that is done vnto him you not onely make new Gods but you reiect him as no GOD who alone is the true GOD and will be serued without mate or meane of your deuising Phi. Our Lord shewing what account he maketh of such as represent his person sayth In as much as you haue doone it to one of the least of these you haue doone it vnto me Theo. Did Christ speake that of images Phi. Noâ— but thereby you see it passeth â—â—to Christ whatsoeuer is done in his name or for his sake to others Theo. If you meane such charitable reliefe as Christ hath commaunded vs to yeeld to our brethren in respect of his will their neede and our dutie you say well wee haue for that the manifest precept and promise of our Sauiour accepting it as done to himselfe whatsoeuer is done to any of his brethren or seruauntes but if you leape from men to images from humane comfort to diuine honour you leape too farre to haue the sequele good Philand If diuine adoration may not bee giuen to Images yet humane reuerence may with-out anie daunger Theo. Religious honour may not and as for externall and ciuill reuerence whether that may bee giuen to images can bee no doubt of Doctrine nor point of fayth The one is impious to bee defended the other superfluous to bee discussed Philand So you giue them either wee care not Theophil If you flie from adoration to saluation and stande not on pietie but on ciuilitie then is it a question for Philosophers and not for Diuines and to bee decided rather in the Schooles than in the Churche neyther can any manne bee praysed or preiudiced for vsing or omitting that kinde of curtesie which neyther the Gospell nor good manners conuince to bee necessary Philand Shoulde wee not honour Christ and his Sainctes by all the meanes wee can Theophil Christ you must honour with all power and all your strength as being the Sonne of the liuing GOD but you may not fasten his honour to any Image or creature since hee is alwayes present to beholde and willing to receiue as well the religions submission of knees handes and eyes as the inwarde sighes and grones of the heart neither can you bestowe the least of these gestures on an image in your prayers without open and euident wrong to him to whome you shoulde yeeld them Phi. For adoring of images I am not so earnest as for hauing them in the Church that they may put vs in remembraunce of the bitter paines and death which it peased our Lord to suffer for our sakes and that I am sure is catholike though adoration be not Theo. We doe not gainesay the remembring or honouring the death and bloodshedding of our Sauiour hee is not onely dull but wicked that intermitteth either but this is the doubt betwixt vs whether wee shoulde content our selues with such meanes as hee hath deuised for vs and commended vnto vs thereby dayly to renue the memorie of our redemption or else inuent others of our owne heades fitte perhappes to prouoke vs to a naturall and humane affection but not fitte to instruct our fayth The hearing of his worde and partaking of his mysteries were appointed by him to leade vs and vse vs to the continuall meditation of his death and passion a crucifixe was not hee knowing that images though they did intertaine the eies with some delight yet might they snare the soules of many simple and sillie persons and preferring the least seede of sounde faith beholding and adoring him in spirit and truth before all the dumbe shewes and imagery that mans wit could furnish to winne the eye and moue the heart with a carrâ—all kind of commiseration and pitie such as wee finde in our selues when wee beholde the tormentes and pangues of any miscreant or malefactour punished amongest vs. Phi. All meanes are good that bring vs in minde of his death Theo. By sight you may learn the maner of his death but neither the cause nor the fruits which are the chiefest thinges that the sonne of god would haue vs remember in his death and you very peruersely and wickedly keeping the people from those meanes which Christ ordained as the hearing of the word and right vse of the sacraments which you drowned in a strange tongue that the people vnderstood not set them to gaze on a Roode taught them to giue all possible honour both bodily and ghostly to that which they sawe with their eyes bearing them in hand it passed from the image to the originall that is from a dead and senselesse stocke to the glorious and euerlyuing Sonne of God which in effect was nothing else but to worship and serue the creature before the Creator which is blessed for euer Phi. You are now besides the matter We speake of hauing images for remeÌ„braunce not of adoring them for religion and that is catholike if this be not Theo. Since the hauing of images being neither deliuered nor allowed by Christ nor his Apostles is superfluous and the abusing of them is so daungerous and yet so frequent and often that in all ages and places it hath intrapped many Gentiles Iewes and Christians I see no reason why for a curious delight of the eyes which the Apostles neglected and the primatiue Church of Christ wanted we shoulde scandalize the ignorant and exercise the learned as for a necessarie point of catholike doctrine Phi. Had the Apostles and their scholers no images Theo. Had they thinke you Phi. Remember you not the image which Nicodemus that came to Christ by night made with his owne handes and left to Gamaliel S. Pauls master he to Iames and Iames to Simeon and Zacheus This report you shall finde written by Athanasius 1300. yeares since and besides that it is amongest his workes at this day it was repeated 800. yeares agoe in the second Nicene councell as
peeces to set vp the image of himselfe which God ouerthrew with fire froÌ„ heauen not in defence of the brasen shape but of his holy name prophaned and illuded by this Apostata Phi. This image the Apostles sawe and suffered Theo. A memoriall of their masters act not abused by the people and erected before they came to preach the Gospell to that place they might suffer but they neuer taught men to make the like nor allowed any to worshippe that Phi. Wee thinke they learned the setting vppe of this image from the Apostles Theo. Eusebius sayth they did it of an heathenish custome and not of an Apostolike instruction His wordes are And no maruell that the Heathens which were healed of our Sauiour did him this honour for so much as wee haue seene the images of his Apostles Paul and Peter and of Christ himselfe drawen in colours and kept in tables which kinde of honour antiquitie of a custome which they vsed when they were heathens was wont to yeelde to such as they counted Benefactors Sauiors Phi. By that you see the images of Christ his Apostles were expressed in colours and reserued by the auncient christians long before Eusebius Theo. Eusebius doeth not report it as a thing either openly receiued in Churches or generally vsed of all christians but as a secrete and seldome matter rising from the perswasion and affection of some which whiles they were heathen had yeelded that honour to other of their friendes fautors to whom they were most beholding For had the Apostles deliuered any such tradition or the Primatiue church of Christ vsed any publike erection of images as you suppose would the councell of Eliberis in Spaine assembled about the time of Constantine the great in plaine words haue banished them out of their churches Placuit picturas in ecclesiis esse non debere ne quod colitur aut adoratur in parietibus dâ— pingatur We haue decreed that pictures ought not to be in the churches lest that which is worshipped or adored be painted on walles Woulde S. Augustine thinke you haue pronounced them worthy to erre which sought Christ his Apostles in pictures paintings if the people had bin taught that way to seeke him Sic omnino errare meâ—uerunt qui Christum Apostolos eius non in sanctis codicibus sed in pictis parietibus quaesierunt So they deserued to erre which sought Christ and his Apostles not in the sacred Scriptures but in paynted walles Or would Epiphanius haue rent the image which he found hanging in the church by Ierusalem and pronounced such painted imagery notwithstanding it represented Christ or one of his Sainctes to be contrary to the Scriptures to the religion of Christ. His words are When I entered the church to pray I found hanging there in the enterance of the saide church a stained and a painted cloath hauing the image as it were of Christ or one of the Sainctes When I sawe this that against the authoritie of the Scriptures the image of a man was hanged vp in the church I did teare it in sunder And I pray you hereafter to command that such cloathes repugnant to our religion be not hanged in the church of Christ. It becommeth your fatherhood rather to haue this care to banish this superstition vnfit for Christes church and for the people committed to your charge By this you may see that images were not receiued much lesse adored in the church of Christ whiles these ancieÌ„t fathers liued and that to remoue them and keepe them out of the church was then adiudged a seemely care for Christian Bishoppes agreeable with the Catholike profession and publike vse of the church of Christ in those dayes Phi. Gregorie the first you know was of an other minde that images should be suffered and not defaced in the church Theo. Gregorie liued 300. yeares after the councell of Eliberis and 200. after Epiphanius in which time the painting of stories was crept into the church as an ornament for the naked walles and a meane to set before the peoples eyes the liues and labours of the Sainctes and Martyrs but that pictures or images in the church shoulde bee worshipped or adored Gregorie did in most manifest words abhorre alleadging the law of God which we do that nothing made with hands should be adored or serued Phi. Not with diuine honor Theo. You meane with no part of that honor which God requireth of vs. Phi. What else They must not haue diuine honour in whole or in part Theo. Then must they haue none at all For God requireth bodily honor no lesse than ghostly as due to him and by his law excludeth all thinges made with handes from hauing either in saying Thou shalt not bow down to them nor serue them Phi. Bowing the knee is not diuine honour but such as wee yeeld to Parents Magistrates Theo. Bowing the knee is a part of Gods honor as also holding vp the handes and lifting vp the eyes To me saith God shall euery knee bow For this cause saith Paul doe I know my knees vnto the father of our Lord Iesus Christ shewing that the bowing of our knees is an honour due to God euen as the lifting vppe of our handes and eyes belongeth likewise vnto him As long as I liue sayeth Dauid I will magnifie thee on this maner and lift vp my handes in thy name I will sayeth the Apostle that the men pray euerie where lifting vp pure handes And so for the rest Vnto thee saith Dauid do I lift vp mine eyes thou that dwellest in the heauens And againe Mine eyes are euer vnto the Lord. And so of our Sauiour when he praied S. Iohn reporteth He lift vp his eyes to heauen and saide The outward honor therefore of eyes handes kneâ—s God requireth of vs as his due though chiefly and principally the heart which he will not suffer any man to haue besides himselfe howsoeuer he allow those that present his goodnesse and glorie in blessing and iudging as Parents and Magistrates to haue some part of his corporall but in no wise of his spirituall honour Phi. And so many images haue part of his external though not of his internal honour which is the higher of the twaine and meeter for the diuine maiesty Theo. It is not in your handes to make allowance of Gods honour to whome you list and againe God himselfe hath made a plaine prohibition in this case that images shall haue no part of his externall honour The wordes are as cleare as day light thou shalt not bow downe to them Phi. Not to the images of false Gods Theo. It is but lost labor to reason with such wranglars Haue not I mainly proued that this precept expressely forbiddeth the Image of the true God to be made or bowed vnto Why then take you vp those shifts againe which be false and refuted
And so againe of that and such like Many thinges are not founde in the Apostles writinges nor in the Councels of those that came after them and yet because they be obserued of the vniuersall Church Non nisi ab ipsis tradita commendata creduntur they are thought to haue bin deliuered and commended by none but by them Phi. This sense is not amisse if the words would beare it but the text is Esset as we translate it Theo. The sense which you vrge is first against your selues next against S. Austen himselfe in other places and lastly which is it that you shoote at it ouerthroweth not our assertion Phi. It requireth some paines to proue all this Theo. Not so much perhappes as you thinke For will you confesse that no custome of the church must be receiued or beleeued except it be Apostolike Admit this and see whether we will not presently cast off the most part of the preceptes and customes of your Church as not descending from the Apostles and therefore not at all to bee beleeued by your owne verdict And as for Sainct Augustine if you thinke hee woulde saie that The custome of the vniuersall Church is not at all to be beleeued except it bee Apostolik reade this resolution better you wil leaue that misconstruction of his wordes Those things which we keep saith he not written but deliuered by traditioÌ„ the which the whole world obserueth must be conceiued to haue bin commended ordained vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel plenarijs concilijs quorum est in ecclesia saluberrima authoritas either by the Apostles themselues or else by general councels whose autority in the church is most wholsom The custom of the church he saith must be retained though it be not Apostolike but decreed by others of later age meanâ—r credit than the Apostles if their assemblies synods were general And againe In hijs rebus de quibus nihil certi statuit scriptura diuina mos populi Dei vel instituta Maiorum pro lege tenenda sunt In those things where the diuine scripture appointeth no certainty the custome of the people of God ordinances of forefathers must bee helde for a law If the custome of Gods people the ordinaÌ„ces of elders must be kept for a law then the custom of the church in baptizing her infants might not be reiected though it were not Apostolike so S. Austen with your esset cleane crosseth himselfe Lastly where you thinke to giue vs the foile with pressing this place we easily grant you that The custom of the church in baptizing her infantes were not to be beleeued if it were not in Apostolike tradition You haue your own reading what are you the better Phi. Ergo some points of faith are beleeued without the scriptures besides the scriptures The. Sir I deny your argument Phi. This is beleeued by tradition ergo not by scripture Theo. A tradition it may be yet written in the scriptures S. Paul calleth the Lords supper a traditioÌ„ yet it is written Ego accepi à Domino quod tradidi vobis I receiued of the Lord that which I deliuered vnto you The death and resurrection of Christ he likewise caled a tradition confirmed by the Scriptures Tradidi vobis inprimis quod accepi I deliuered vnto you first of all which I also receiued that Christ died for our sinnes according to the Scriptures and was buried and rose the thirde daie according to the Scriptures And in plainer words to the Thessalonians Holde fast sayeth hee the traditions which you haue learned either by speeche or Epistle of ours calling those thinges that be written in his epistles his traditions Phi. But the fathers vse the word otherwise for that which is not written Theo. Sometimes they do somtimes they do not S. Cyprian sayth Whence is this tradition Whether doeth it descend from the Lordes authority and the Gospell or commeth it from the precepts and epistles of the Apostles If it be commaunded in the Gospell or contained in the Epistles or Actes of the Apostles let this holy tradition be obserued And so S. Basill Our baptisme is according to the tradition of the Lord in the name of the father the Sonne and the holy Ghost Ireneus Tertullian Hierom Augustine and others call the short rehearsal of the christian faith which is our common Creede an old Apostolik traditioÌ„ yet no part of the creede is without or besides the warrant of the Scriptures Phi. I know it may be a tradition and yet reuokeable to the Scriptures and proueable by the Scriptures but the baptisme of infantes Sainct Augustine saith hath no witnes in the scriptures Theo. Where saith he so Phi. In many places Theo. Name but one Phi. There be many things which the vniuersal Church obserueth and for that cause they be well thought to haue beene commaunded by the Apostles though they be not found written Theo. How proue you this to be one of those many Phi. Because wee finde it not written but only deliuered by tradition Theo. You say so but where doth S. Augustine say so Phi. In the wordes which we first alleaged It were not to be beleeued if it were not an Apostolike tradition If it were written it must be beleeued though it were no Tradition Theo. You deale with the fathers as you doe with the scriptures S. Austen doth not say the baptisme of infants were not to be beleeued but The custome of the Church in a matter of so great weight as the baptizing of infants were not to be trusted if the tradition were not Apostolike The church might not haue presumed to baptize infants if the Apostles had not begunne it what gaine you by that Thereby you may proue that the Apostles did it and that the Church of her selfe and her own authoritie might not doe it more you cannot proue Phi. But doth S. Austen any where say that the baptisme of Children is contained in the scriptures Theo. What if he went not so farre in wordes because the matter was not in question whiles he liued is that any ground for you to conclude that it is not allowed by the Scriptures Phi. If he keepe silence it is a shrewde signe that it is not Theo. So long as no man did impugne it there was no need he should defend it the question in his time was not whether it were lawful for infants to be baptized but whether it were needfull for theÌ„ or no. The Pelagians held it to be superfluous for yâ— infantes were void of original sinne which was their error That he mightily reproueth by manifest Scriptures and sheweth that infants as well as others bee excluded from the kingdome of God if they be not baptized Farther hee waded not as being not farther vrged and troubled enough besides with refuting other heresies and yet as occasion serued hee brought
more than Tradition for the baptizing of children If any man sayth he seâ—ke for diuine authoritie in this matter we may truely coniecture by circuÌ„cision what effect the Sacrament of baptisme hath in infants vsing a very forcible argumeÌ„t in this case that if children might receiue the seale of the former couenant vnder Moses why not of the later established in the blood of Christ Phi. He saith we may coniecture it but he doth not say we may proue it Theo. He repeateth the reason with Veraciter conijcere possumus We may very truly coniecture and a true coniecture is no vntrue persuasion but as I said it was not then in doubt and therefore no maruaile if that Learned father laboured not that question to the depth Had it beene denyed as in our dayes it is he woulde haue founde the same scriptures to confirme it that we doe And to say the trueth his euident illations out of the Scriptures that baptisme is needfull for Infants make sufficient demonstration that baptisme is lawfull for Infants els it would follow that no child might be saued which is an hainous and monsterous error directly fighting with the manifest scriptures For where without baptisme they cannot be saued by reason original sin is not remitted but in baptisme as S. Austen concludeth out of the wordes of our Sauiour Except a man be borne of water and of the spirite he cannot enter the kingdome of God If children be excluded from baptism they be consequently excluded from the kingdome of God which is flatly repugnant to the word of God Phi. It is no meaning of ours to exclude children from baptisme but to let you vnderstand that you cannot shew by the Scriptures that children were baptized Theo. I graunt we cannot and adde we neede not The Scriptures we say containe al matters of faith not of fact That children were baptized we proue by the practise of Christes Church and not by the scriptures That children may bee baptized we proue not only by the Tradition of the Apostles but also by the sequele of the Scriptures themselues Our Sauiour saith of Children It is not the will of your father which is in heauen that one of these litle ones should perishe Now choose you whether they shall be saued without baptisme or perishe for lacke of baptisme Againe the Lord saith Suffer the litle children and forbid them not to come vnto me for the kingdome of heauen belongeth vnto such They must enter the kingdome of God before they can possesse it and enter it they cannot vntill they be new borne of water and the holy Ghost Now say wil you exclude them from that which God hath prouided for them or will admitte them to be heires with Christ before they bee engraffed into Christ by Baptisme The Apostle saith to the great comforte of all Christian Parents The vnbeleeuing husband is sanctified by the wife that beleeueth and the vnbeleeuing wife is sanctified by the husband that beleeueth els were your children vncleane but nowe are they holy This is spoken not of the secret election of the faithfull which is neither common to all nor knowen to any but of their Christian profession whereby they be called to be Sainctes that is an holy peculiar people vnto God For al things be holy that be dedicated to his vse this kinde of holines S. Paul deriueth from the roote to the branches If the roote be holy so are the branches If then Infants be partakers of the same vocation holynes with their parents without baptisme which is the seale of Gods couenaÌ„t with vs in the blood of his sonne neither we nor our children can be holy surely the children of Sainctes if they be excluded from baptisme are as vnholy and vncleane as the children of Infidels which vtterly subuerteth sainct Pauls Doctrine If to auoide this place you suppose holinesse to bee meant of the inward satisfaction of Gods spirite besides that children drawe inward corruption not holinesse from their Christian Parents yet this way wee also conclude that Children must bee Baptized for where the spirite of God is precedent the seruice of man must bee consequent as sainct Peter teacheth Can any man forbid water that these shoulde not bee baptized which haue receiued the holy Ghost So that take which you will and say what you can our conclusion is vnmoueable And since children bee defiled by Adam if they may not bee washed by Christ the disobedience of man shal bee mightier vnto condemnation than the grace of God and obedience of Christ vnto iustification which the Scriptures reiect as a wicked absurditie Wherefore the church absolutely and flatly may not assure saluation to children vnbaptized lest they seeme naturally innocent or generally sanctified without baptisme albeit their Parents desiring and seeking it if they bee preuented by mortall necessitie wee must leaue them to the goodnes and secret election of God not without hope because in their Parents there wanted no wil but an extremitie disappointed them and in the children the let was weaknes of age not wickednes of heart and so the sacrameÌ„t omitted not for any contempt of religion but by strictnes of time in which cases S. Augustine confesseth the want of baptisme may be supplied if it so please God mary they may not chalenge it nor we promise it Much more might bee sayde but I content my selfe with the former reasons till you refute them And hauing the certaine practise of the Apostles in baptizing Infants witnessed by the Church of Châ—ist and deliuered vnto the Church for the confirmation of those thinges which we alleage wee count them irrefutable Philand Neither doe I mislike the thing but I muse why Saint Augustine claymed wholy by Tradition if so much Scripture might bee brought for the matter Theoph. Expresse precept to baptize infantes or plaine example where they were baptized the scripture hath none and therefore Saint Augustine did well to reuerence the Tradition which hee sawe was Apostolike and if any man vrge vs to prooue that children were baptized wee must flee to the same Tradition with him But if it bee impugned as a thing vnlawfull and dissonant from the Scriptures we must then lift the ground of that Tradition by the scriptures because it toucheth the saluation or condemnation of Christian Infants And so would S. Austen haue exactly and learnedly doone wee doubt not if that point had beene controuersed in his time Philand Hee woulde you say but hee did not wee knowe and that causeth vs to take it for an vnwritten Tradition Theoph. A tradition we grant but agreeable to the Scriptures And though Saint Austen doe not say so that is no reason for you to conclude it is not so silence is no proofe Nay if hee had called it an vnwritten Tradition as hee doeth not that were no let but it might be confirmed by the scriptures
as it is for the precept is not written though the causes and consequents may bee iustified by that which is written And this is not straunge with Saint Austen to call that an vnwritten Tradition which him-selfe confesseth may be warranted by the scriptures Phi. What haue wee here One and the same Tradition confessed by saint Augustine to bee both written and vnwritten Theoph. One and the same Tradition I say confessed to bee written and yet warranted by the Scriptures Phi. That were newes Theo. None at all Goe no farther than your second example of rebaptizing and you shall see it to be true S. Augustine calleth it an vnwritten Tradition or Custome of the church in many places Hee sayth expressely of it Quam consuetudinem credo ex Apostolica Traditione venientem sicut multa non inueniuntur in Literis eorum c. Which custome I think came from the apostles as many other things that are not found in their writings And againe of the very same Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt The Apostles in deede commaunded nothing in that case as also there bee many thinges which the whole Church obserueth though they be not found written Phi. That we knowe to be true neuer spend more time about it but let vs heare where S. Austen saith this Custome is also warranted by the scriptures Theo. You can not misse it if you read the very same bookes where the other is witnessed Now saith he lest I seeme to dispute this matter by humane reasons because the darkenes of this question draue great men and men endued with great charitie the bishops that were in former ages of the church before the schisme of Donatus to doubt and striue but without breach of vnitie ex euangelio profero certa Documenta quibus Domino adiuuante demonstro Out of the Gospel I bring sure groundes by Gods helpe to make proofe thereof And hauing disputed it a while We follow that saith he which the custome of the church hath alwaies obserued a plenarie councel cōfirmed And the reasons and testimonies of scriptures on both sides being throughly weighed I may say we follow that which trueth hath declared And repeating the euidence of his side he saith it may be vnderstood by the former custome of the Church by the strength of a generall councell that followed by so many so weightie testimonies of the holy scriptures by manifolde instructions out of Cyprians owne workes and very plaine arguments of trueth And therefore drawing to an end he saith It might perhaps suffice that our reasons being so oft repeated and diuersly debated and handled in disputing and the Documents of the holy Scriptures being added and so many testimonies of Cyprian him-selfe concurring iam etiam corde tardiores quantum existimo intelligunt by this time the weaker and duller sort of men as I thinke vnderstande that the baptisme of Christ can not bee violated by no peruersenesse of the partie that giueth it or taketh it and therefore must not bee iterated Thus in one and the selfesame worke you see S. Austen auouching it to be a Tradition not written and yet confirmed by manifest scriptures Phi. I heare him say so but I see not how it can be Theo. You will not for feare you shoulde see your selues conuinced of an error it is otherwise plaine enough The thing it selfe is not written but receiued by Tradition mary the grounds of it be so layd in the scriptures that it may thence bee rightly concluded The like we say for the baptisme of infants the precept it selfe is not written nor any example of it in the scriptures but it was deliuered vnto the church by tradition from the Apostles mary it so dependeth on those principles of faith which bee written that it may bee fairely deduced from them and fully proued by them Phi. By Tradition onely hee and other condemned Heluidius the heretike for denying the perpetual virginitie of our Lady Theo. Your stoare fayleth you when you flee from fayth and hope in GOD to examine Ioseph and Marie that you may picke out somewhat betweene them to impeache the perfection of the Scriptures That Christ was borne of a virgine vndefiled is an high point of fayth and plainely testified in the Scriptures That after the birth of her Sonne she was not knowen of her husband is a reuerend and seemely truth preserued in the Church by witnesses woorthie to bee trusted but no part of fayth needefull to bee recorded in the Scriptures Phi. Saint Augustine sayth it is Integra fide credendum est With an vpright fayth we must beleeue that blessed Mary the mother of God and Christ was a virgin in conceiuing a virgin when she was deliuered and remained a virgin after the birth of her sonne And we must beware the blasphemie of Heluidius which sayde shee was a virgin before but not after the birth of Christ. Theo. Grate not on these thinges which were better to bee honoured with silence than discussed with diligence The booke which you bring is not S. Augustines It was found vnder Tertullians name as wel as vnder Augustines though Tertullian himselfe bee twise there noted for an heretike and chalenged the first time for that very error which S. Augustine in his true booke of heresies doeth acquite him from And yet these wordes Credendum est Mariam virginem concepisse virginem genuisse post partum virginem permansisse Wee must beleeue that the mother of Christ was a pure virgin when she conceiued when shee brought forth his sonne and after she was deliuered do not touch your question as they are defended by S. Augustine in his vndoubted woorkes to bee part of our fayth but onely that shee was a pure virgin after his birth notwithstanding his birth And therefore hee sayth Quisi velper nascentem corrumperetur eius integritas iam non ille de virgine nasceretur If Christes birth euen when hee was borne shoulde haue violated the virginitie of his mother then had hee not beene borne of a virgin So that as shee conceiued the Lorde and was still a virgin so shee was deliuered of him and her selfe yet a virgin that is not onely without the knowledge of man but also without all hurt of her body she remaining after shee was deliuered of her childe as perfect a virgin in body as shee was before she conceiued him And this to be the right meaning of those wordes Post partum virgo permansit shee remayned a virgin after the birth of her child when her virginitie must bee vrged for a poynt of fayth the sermons extant vnder the name of S. Augustine do clearly confesse Nec dubites Mariam virginem mansisse post partum quia qualiter hoc factum sit non humanus sermo neque sensus potest comprehendere Neuer doubt but Marie remained a virgin after the birth of her childe although
neither mans speach nor witte can comprehende howe it was done And againe Virgo cum parturit virgo post partum Vacuatur vterus infans excipitur nec tamen virginitas violatur Shee was a virgin when shee was deliuered and a virgin after She was deliuered her child borne and shee for all that a virgin The like we find in sundry other of those sermons Phi. But Heluidius was noted as an heretike by S. Augustine and others for saying that our Lady was knowen of Ioseph her husband after the birth of our Sauiour Theo. The Fathers might reiect him as an heretike for his impudent abusing the Scriptures to build a falshoode vpon them which was not contained in them and if they detested it as a rash and wicked slaunder for him against manifest trueth to blemish that chosen vessell which the holy Ghost had ouershadowed and the son of God sanctified with his presence we neither blame them nor mislike their doings But yet they neuer charged the Scriptures with imperfection as you doe S. Hierome purposely writing against Heluidius vseth the fulnes of the Scriptures as his best argument to defend her virginitie Vt haec quae scripta sunt non negamus ita ea quae non sunt scripta renuimus Natum esse Deum de Virgine credimus quia legimus Mariam Nupsisse post partum non credimus quia non legimus As we deny not those things which are written so we reiect those things which are not written That God was borne of a Virgine wee beleeue because we read That the same virgine Mary became a wife after the birth of her son we beleeue it not because we read it not S. Augustine alleageth Scripture for it with what successe I will not iudge If neither of these quiet your contentious spirits our answer shal be that when you make iust proofe that this is a poinct not of trueth which we graunt but of faith which you vrge then will wee not faile to shewe it consequent to that which is written You were wont to obiect other pointes of Religion as proued by tradition and not by Scripture amongest which you set the Godhead of the holy Ghost and his proceeding from the Father and the Sonne But I trust by this time you be either stilled in them or ashamed of them Phi. Not so neither For As we acknowledge this article to be most true so we are sure you haue no expresse Scripture for it Theo. Are you well aduised when to spite vs you teach the people that the highest mysteries of their faith cannot be warranted by the Scriptures Perceaue you not what a wrong it is to the spirite of GOD to holde his Diuinitie by Tradition and not by the word of God What ignorance is this if it be no worse to say that Athanasius Dydimus Basil Nazianzen Ambrose Cyril and Augustine in their special Treaties of this very point haue alleaged no Scriptures to confirme the Godhead of the Holy Ghost Phi. We speake not of them but of you Theo. As if in a common case of faith the Scriptures were not common to vs with them If they had Scriptures for it we haue if we haue none than had they none Phi. Expresse Scripture they had none Theo. Doe you plaie with idle wordes in so weightie matters of Christian faith Euident and plaine scriptures they had where the holy Ghost was called God what is expresse Scripture if that be not Phi. They had no such scripture Theo. Had they not Turne your booke a little better you shall find they had Glorificate Deum portate in corpore vestro Quem Deum nisi spiritum sanctum cuius corpora nostra dixerat esse Templum Glorifie God saith the Apostle and beare him in your bodie What God but the Holy ghost whose Temple before he called our bodies And againe When Peter had said durst thou make a lie to the holy Ghost Ananias thinking he had lied vnto men Peter sheweth the Holy Ghost to be God by and by adding thou hast not lied vnto men but vnto God These two places the same father vrgeth against the Arrians as very plain scriptures Glorificate ergo Deum in corpore vestro Vbi dilucidè ostendit Deum esse spiritum sanctum glorificandum scilicet in corpore nostro Et quod Ananiae dixit Petrus Apostolus Ausus es mentiri spiritui sancto Atque ostendens Deum esse spiritum sanctum non es inquit hominibus mentitus sed Deo Glorifie therefore God in your body saieth Paul Where very manifestly hee sheweth the holy Ghost to bee God which must be glorified in our body as in his Temple And that which Peter the Apostle saide to Ananias Durst thou lie vnto the holy Ghost And declaring the holy Ghost to be God thou hast not lied vnto men saith he but vnto God Ambrose taketh them for euident scriptures Quod praemiserit Spiritum addiderit non es mentitus hominibus sed Deo necesse est in spiritu sancto vt vnitatem diuinitatis esse intelligas Nec solum in hoc loco euidenter sancti spiritus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est diuinitatem Scriptura testatur sed etiam ipse Dominus dixit in Euangelio quod Deus spiritus est In that Peter first named the Spirite and presently saide thou hast lied not vnto men but vnto God wee can not choose but vnderstand the holy Ghost to be God Neither in this place only doth the Scripture euidently witnesse the Godhead of the holy Ghost but also in the Gospel the Lord himselfe saith that the spirite is God Nazianzen saith these and such like be expresse scriptures and that if you doubt thereof you be very grosse headed They which knewe the only blasphemie which is vttered against the Spirite to be irremissible and gaue Ananias and Saphira that horrible reproche for lying vnto the holy Ghost what doe they seeme to thee openly to professe the Spirite to be God or no How dull headed art thou and without al sense of the spirite if thou doubt thereof or needest farther teaching By so many names so forcible and expresly recorded in the Scriptures the holy Ghost is called Amongst those expresse names numbring this for one of the chiefest and clearest that the holy Ghost was called God as the words before directly witnesse Phi. His proceeding from the Father and the sonne cannot bee proued by scripture though his Godhead may Theo. How then came it first to be beleeued by Tradition or by scripture Phi. Certeinly not by scripture Theo. Your tongues be so vsed to vntruthes that your certainties be litle worth the Church of Christ receiued her faith concerning the proceeding of the Holy Ghost from the father and the sonne not by Tradition but by scripture Saint Augustine saith Firmely beleeue and no whit doubt the same holy Ghost which is one Spirit of the
Authoritie to witnesse the same For example the worshipping and adoring of Christes Image with diuine honour concluded in your Schooles and practised in your churches is it not a wicked and blasphemous inuention of your owne against all Synodes and Fathers Greeke and Latine olde and newe that euer assembled or taught in the church of God besides your selues The seconde Nicene Councell which first beganne that pernicious pastime of saluting and kissing Images did they not in plaine wordes condemne this errour of yours when they saide 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vni Deo tribuimus diuine honour wee giue to God alone and not to images And againe I receiue and imbrace reuerent images but the adoration which is doone with diuine honor called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I reserue to the supersubstantiall and quickning Trinity onely and to no image Ionas Bishop of Orleans that wrote against Claudius Bishop of Turin in the defence of images 50. yeares after the second Nicene councell did hee not mightily detest your adoration of images as a most heinous errour and was not the whole church of Fraunce by his report of the same minde with him Suffer saith he the images of the Sainctes the histories of holy actions to be painted in the church not that they shold be worshipped but that they may be an ornament to the place and bring the simple to the remembraunce of thinges past Creaturam verò adorari etque aliquid diuinae seruitutis impendi pro nefas ducimus huiúsque scelâ—ris patratorem detestandum anathematizandum libera voce proclamamus But that any creature or Image should be adored or haue any part of diuine honour wee count it a wickednesse and with open voice proclaime the committer of that impiety worthy to bee detested and accursed And prouing by manifold authorities of scriptures and fathers that neither image neither any thing made with handes should be adored he addeth That which you say the worshippers of images answered you for the maintenaÌ„ce of their error we think no diuinity to be in the image which we adore but only in honor of the person whose image it is we worship it with such veneration that answere of theirs we reproue detest as wel as you because they do know there is no diuine thing in the image they be the more blame worthie for bestowing diuine honor on a weake beggarly Image the self same answere many of the East church entangled with this hainous error giue to such as rebuke theÌ„ the Lord of his mercy graÌ„t that yet at leÌ„gth both these and those may bee drawen from this superstition of theirs Fraunce hath Images and suffereth them to stand for the causes which I before rehearsed but they count it a great detestation abomination to haue them adored In this opinion stoode the west Churches a long time till your schoolemen started vp and ouer-ruled Religion with their sophisticall distinctions and solutions and they keeping the wordes of the later Nicene Councell and not marking their drift controled that which they concluded and brought in a lewder and wickeder kind of adoring of Images with the same honor that is due to the Principall The chiefe actor in this was your glorious Sainct and Clerke as you cal him Thomas Aquin who reiecting all that was decreed at Nice inferred against them that no reuerence could be exhibited to the Image of Christ in that it was a thing grauen or painted because reuerence is due to none but to a reasonable creature and alleaging Aristotles authoritie that the motion to the Image and originall is all one he resolueth in these wordes Cum Christus adoretur adoratione latriae consequens est quod eius imago sit adoratione latriae adoranda Since then Christ is adored with diuine honour it followeth that his Image must likewise be adored with the self-same diuine honour Bonauenture an other of your Romish Sainctes canonized by Sixtus the fourth goeth after Thomas with full saile Quin Imago Christi introducta est ad repraesentandum eum qui pro nobis Crucifixus est nec affert se nobis pro se sed pro illo ideo omnis reuerentia quae ei offertur exhibitur Christo propterea Imagini Christi debet cultus latriae exhiberi Whereas the Image of Christ representeth him that was crucified for vs and offereth it selfe vnto vs not for it self but for him in that respect all the reuerence which is giuen to it is done to Christ and therefore the Image of Christ must be honored with diuine adoration Holcote and Gerson somwhat disliked this assertion and disputed against it but the pronesse of the people to follow such fancies the greedines of Priestes and other religious persons to keepe and increase their offerings and the credite of Thomas his learning Sainctship and sectaries bare such a sway in the Church of Rome that the rest coulde not bee regarded nor heard and so the common opinion and resolution of your Churches and schooles as the fortresse of your faith confesseth was that the image of Christ should be worshipped with diuine honor whâ—ch you would faine shrinke from in our dayes the doctrine being both strange and wicked if you could tell howe but that the wordes are so plaine that no pretence can colour them Your schoole doctrine therefore of adoring images with diuine honour not onely prohibited by the law of God and abhorred of all ancient and Catholike fathers but euen renounced in the second Nicene councell as repugnant to truth and shunned in the West church for a thowsande yeares after Christ and vpwarde as a most wicked errour howe coulde it on the suddaine with a sillie distinction of sundrie respectes become catholike what greater wickednes can there be than to giue the honor of God to stockes and stones and to say you do it not in regard of the matter but of the resemblance which the image hath to the originall as though it could be an image vnlesse it had some resemblance either in deed or in our opinion to the thing it selfe or man were not a truer better image of God and yet in no respect to be adored with diuine honor or as if God prohibiting all images made with hands to be adored had not included as well their resemblance as their matter Why may not any Pagan by this euasion worship what creature he will say he beholdeth honoreth in it not the matter but the wisedome power of the Creator And what other conceit is this than that which the Iewish heathenish Idolaters when they were reproued answered that they adored not the thinges which they saw but conueied their adoration by the image to him that was inuisible If such prophane speculations may be suffered in Gods cause wee may soone delude all that GOD hath commanded with one respect or other The
spirit but I wil pray with the vnderstanding also I wil sing with the spirit but I will sing with the vnderstanding also Els when thou blessest with the spirit how shal he that occupieth the roume of the vnlearned say Amen at thy giuing of thaÌ„ks seeing he knoweth not what thou saiest Thou verilie giuest thanks wel but the other is not edified I had rather in the Church to speak fiue words with mine vnderstanding thaâ— I might also instruct others thaÌ„ ten thousand words in an vnknown toung When ye come together let al things be done to edification If any man speake in an vnknowen tongue let one interprete but if there be no interpreter let him keep silence in the church God is not the author of confusion but of peace so I teach in al the Churches of the saintes If any man seeme to be a Prophet or to be spiritual let him vnderstand that the things which I write vnto you are the commaundemeÌ„ts of the Lord. Thus farre S. Paul which I rehearse at large that it may lie for the ground of the whole dispute that shall follow What answer you to this commaundement of God and doctrine of his Apostle Phi. No one place of scripture is more diuersly or easilie answered than this First you your traÌ„slatioÌ„s corrupt this chapter by putting your own words to y Apostles text For where he sayth toÌ„gue you ad strange vnknowen not vnderstood which are not in S. Paul SecoÌ„dly you misconster the whole passage of S. Paul for by edifying yâ— church vnderstanding the power of the voice he meaneth not y bare significatioÌ„ of yâ— words only but the increase of fayth true knowledge goodlife in that sense we say Our forefathers were as much edified with the latine seruice that is as wâ—se as faythful as deuout as fearful to breake Gods Lawes as likely to be saued as we are with all our tongues translations and English praiers Thirdly by strange tongues the Apostle meaneth not the Latin Greeke or Hebrew Fourthly that he speaketh not of the Churches seruice is proued by inuincible arguments Fifthly the Catholike people are taught the contents of their praiers and vnderstand euerie Ceremonie can behaue them selues accordingly Sixtly it is not necessarie to vnderstand our prayers Lastly the seruice hath been alwaies in Latin throughout the west Church And to dispute thereof as though it were not to be done since the whole Church doth practise obserue it throughout the wordle is most insolent madnes as S. Augustine saith in 118. epistle I sawe by your lookes you thought we could not answer it Theo. I knew you had stoare of answers such as they be but from such interpreters God defend vs and all that be his Phi. Speake to the matter let the men alone Theoph. Then to the matter this is a right paterne of your Rhemish annotations stuffed with impertinent allegations and impudent sophistications of purpose to defeate frustrate the scriptures that are against you Phi. You fall to railing when you faint in reasoning Theo. How can we but kindle wheÌ„ we see you fray the people of God from the sweete wholesom foode of their soules and delude them with your huskes and hogwash Phi. First discharge your selues of your shameful adding to the Scriptures and then you may the better examine our answers Theoph. To the text of the holie Ghost we adde not onely for the better conceauing of the sense in an other print we enterpose that speciall limitation of the word tongue which the drift of the whole chapter necessarily enforceth which the Apostle himself directly expresseth and the learned and ancieÌ„t fathers expounding this place doe euerywhere insert as the right construction of the scripture S. Paul did not speake either of tongues in generall or of such tongues as were knowen and well vnderstoode of the Corinthians nothing can be more absurd nor more against sense and nature thaÌ„ so to applie the Apostles reasons but of such tongues as were vnknowen and not vnderstood of the hearers and in that case his assertions are verie true and his illations very strong which otherwise are ridiculous if not monsterous For who well in his wits will make the Apostle speake so falsly and absurdly as to say He that speaketh a knowne tongue speaketh not vnto men but vnto God If I come to you speaking with knowne tongues what shall I profite you He that speaketh a knowne language edifieth but himselfe when thou blessest with the spirit and in a knowne tongue howe shall hee that is vnlearned say Amen These speaches haue neither ryme nor reason in them but turne them to the coÌ„trary and limit them to an vnknowne tongue and then they be very substantiall and sensible assertions And so S. Paul in that chapter very often expoundeth himselfe For these be his owne additions Howe shal it be vnderstoode what is spoken Except I knowe the power of the speach I shal bee barbarous to him that speaketh He knoweth not what thou saiest And citing a place of the Prophet Esay to confirme his intent he saith by men of other tongues and of other languages will I speake to this people What is an other tongue and another language but in manifest termes a strange tongue and a strange language Chrysostom and Ambrose commenting vpon this chapter deliuer S. Pauls minde in those very words which we do Si peregrina lingua gratias agas If thou giue thanks in a STRANGE tongue saith Chrysostome the common man can not answere Amen And speaking in S. Pauls person Linguas inutiles esse dico quantisper sint ignotae I say tongues are vnprofitable so long as they are VNKNOWNE Nam quae vtilitas ex voce non intellecta potest esse For what profit can there come by a speach that is NOT VNDERSTOOD Ambrose like wise Hoc est quod dicit qui loquitur incognita lingua Deo loquitur This is it the Apostle saith he that speaketh in AN VNKNOWNE TOVNG speaketh vnto God and not vnto men And againe Docere nemo poterit nisi intelligatur No man can instruct except he be vnderstood And therefore the Apostle warneth saith he that they should not seeme barbarous ech to other by AN VNKNOWN TOVNG Non competit fidelibus audire linguas quas non intelligunt sed infidelibus It is not for the faithful to heare tongues which they vnderstand not but for infidels Qui loquitur linqua subaudis incognita peregrina He that speaketh with a tongue thou must vnderstand saith Haymo an vnknowne and strange tongue And againe Si orem lingua subaudis incognita If I pray with a tongue to wit an vnknowne tongue the vnderstanding of my soule is without any profit because I vnderstand not what I speake And so S. Augustin disputing of this place saith Quia lingua id est membro
seruice Againe the publike Seruice had but one language in this exercise they spake in many tongues In the the publike Seruice euery man had not his owne special tongue his special interpretation speciall Reuelation proper Psalmes but in this they had Againe the publike Seruice had in it the ministration of the holy Sacrament principally which was not done in this time of conference For into this exercise were admitted Catechumens and Infidels and whosoeuer would in this women before S. Pauls order did speake and prophesie so did they neuer in the ministration of the Sacrament With many other plaine differences that by no meanes the Apostles wordes can be rightly and truely applied to the Corinthians Seruice then or ours now Therefore it is either great ignorance of the Protestants or great guilefulnesse so vntruely and peruersly to apply them Theo. Before I reply let me aske you a question Phi. With a good will Theo. Are you not a Priest Phi. I am or I should be Theo. I will not oppose you after what order Aarons being abolished Melchizedecks not imparted to any mortal man But by vertue of your priesthood are you not bound to catechise as wel as to baptize that is to preach the word as wel as to minister the sacraments Phi. So we do as time and place require Theo. If I should vrge you that you your felowes neuer preach because euery holyday sunday you say Masse massing is apparently no preaching what would you answer Phi. I would answer that you made a very childish foolish argument For though the one be not the other yet we may do both at one time in one place successiuely before wee depart And if you doubt of this the meanest parish clarke in Christendome may be your master Theo. You pul not me but your self by the nose Philander and mark it not Your inuincible arguments wherby you would proue that S. Paul in this whole Chapter spake nothing of the Church seruice in Corinth are such ridiculous toyes of all the worlde as this which I brought for example to trie your patience with Phi. You shall not defeate the force of our reasons with such a iest Theo. Neither shall you delude the Apostles doctrine with such a shift The Church of Corinth had then as al other Churches nowe haue or should haue both praying preaching annexed and adioyned to the ministration of the Lords supper Both these yet are euer were the meanes which God ordained to prepare vs to be fit ghests for that Table Howe shal they saith the Apostle call on him in whom they haue not beleeued and how shall they beleeue in him of whom they haue not heard how shall they heare without a Preacher Hearing is the nurce of faith and faith is the fountaine of praier without praier wee may not approach to God nor to the Sacrament of thankesgiuing which by the very name it beareth putteth vs in mind what duty we must yeeld to God when we are partakers of it By this it is euident that teaching in the church of God doth not exclude praiing but is rather the mean that God hath appointed to direct incite the minds of the faithfull to make their praiers vnto him in such sort as they ought when they are gathered togither in Christs name to serue God the father in the spirit of his sonne And so the holy Ghost describeth the church that was at Ierusalem vpon the first spredding of the Gospel from whence we must take the forme of Apostolik churches They continued saith the Scripture in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and praiers noting doctrine prayers brotherly communion at the Lords table to be the publike exercises of christians in their assemblies where the Apostles themselues were present in their persons to guide gouerne those meetings Phi. You come not yet to the point Theo. I will not long be from it These praiers exhortations and instructions which the faithfull had in their assemblies were they not partes of the seruice which they yeelded to God Phi. Yees but not of the church seruice Theo. What seruice was there in the church besides this that I mention Phi. The ministration of the Sacrament Theo. If you meane the order and fashion of administring the Sacrament Saint Paul receiued that of the Lord and deliuered it to the church of Corinth in such manner and forme as we finde expressed not many leaues before in the 11. of this Epistle But there is no church seruice prescribed or named onely the elemēts and actions of the Lordes supper are particularly remembred and committed to the church as her chiefest iewell in her husbandes absence vntill hee come Phi. Thinke you they had no set Rites Collectes nor praiers deliuered them from the Apostles for that holy action Theo. You presume they had and vppon that false imagination you ground the most part of your headlesse argumentes that the Apostle speaketh not of the Church seruice Phi. Had they no speciall forme of prayer prescribed in their churches whiles the Apostles liued Theo. Had they say you Phi. Else they had nothing but confusion in their churches Theo. Blaspheme not so fast The power of the holy Ghost miraculously supplying all wantes and inspiring the Pastours and Elders in euery Church howe to pray was no confusion Phi. Do you thinke they changed their prayers in euery place and at euery meeting as pleased the minister Theo. You may well perceiue by the Apostles wordes that they had neither Sermons nor Seruice prefixed nor limited in his time but when the Church came togither the Elders and Ministers instructed the people and made their prayers by inspiration Phi. I knowe they did so but this was not the Church Seruice Theo. This was all the church Seruice they had to which they added the celebration of the Lordes supper but without any setled or prefined order of praier except it were he Lords praier which they obserued in all places as comming from the mouth of Christ himselfe their Soueraigne Lord and Master Phi. Mary Sir that were euen such seruice as you haue at this day where euery blind Minister bableth what he listeth Theo. Iest not at God except you wil be Iulian. Phi. I iest at your disorder which you would seeme to deriue frō the Primatiue Church of the Apostles Theo. In deede wee haue not so many turnes and touches bowtes and becks as you haue in your Masses other disorder in our Seruice I know none vnlesse it bee that wee doe not swinge the Censers rince the chalice tosse the Masse-booke plaie with the host and sleepe at Memento as you doe with a number of like toyes throughout your seruice Phi. Doe not you nowe iest at our Seruice Theo. At your stage-like gestures I may without offence but you iested at the miraculous gift of the holy Ghost guiding the
cut off al ambiguities we haue the plaine testimonie of Gregorie the great that the Church of Rome 600. yeres after Christ knew nothing of those constitutions and Church seruices which are now obtruded vnder the Apostles names Mos Apostolorum fuit vt ad ipsam solummodo orationem Dommicam oblationis hostiam consecraret This was saith he the maner of the Apostles to consecrate the sacrifice with saying no moe praiers but the Lords praier In vaine therefore doe you dreame of a settled forme of praier for the Lords supper where as the Apostles haue none but left that to the direction and disposition of the holy Ghost inspiring the ministers and elders in euery Church when the faithful were assembled to make their praiers vnto god with the people and to render him thankes for all his mercies as the spirite gaue them vtterance This Chrysostome calleth Precandi domum the miraculous gift of praiers whereof S. Paul speaketh in this place and Tertul. seemeth to meÌ„tion the same in his Apologie for the Christians as during in the Church vnto his time We saith he looking vp to heauen with our hands stretched out as being innocent bareheaded as not ashamed sine monitore quia de pectore oramus make our praiers without any prompter as comming from the free motion of our own harts Phi. Our arguments conuince that S. Paul spake not of the Churches seruice and till those be answered we cannot change our minds Theo. That which I haue alreadie saide openeth your error in mistaking or els peruerting the wordes of S. Paul choose you whether if that content you not repeate your reasons as they stand in rew that we may see their force Phi. It is euident the Corinthians had their Seruice in Greeke at this same time and â—t was not done in these miraculous toungs Nothing is ment then of the church seruice Theo. To vs it is out of question that the Corinthians had their publike prayers and exhortations in the Greeke tongue because the common people of that City vnderstood none other and the tongue which they vnderstoode not might not be vsed in the Church by S. Pauls rule but you that denie S. Paul to speak of the Church seruice in this place howe prooue you the Corinthians had their Seruice in the Greeke tongue Phi. Doe you thinke they had not Theo. For our parts as I tolde you we are resolued because S. Paul would neither haue preaching nor praying in the Church but such as might edifie addeth that an vnknown tongue profiteth nothing to edificatioÌ„ mary you are otherwise minded and therefore I see not howe you can proue that they had their seruice in the Greeke tongue which you affirme to be euident Phi. Had they their Seruice trow you in an vnknowne tongue Theo. In your opinion that is no such absurdity Phi. They could not vnderstand it except it were in Greeke Theo. This is contrary to your owne Principles For the Hebrewe Greeke and Latine as you told vs euen nowe were vnderstoode of the cyuill people in euery great Citie and were that vntrue as I know it is though you auouched it for an aduantage yet is it not necessarie to vnderstand our prayers as your selues defend in this your declaration vpon S. Paul and following the path that you leade vs in your Rhemish obseruations wee say you can not prooue the Corinthians had their seruice in the Greeke tongue Philand In what tongue else coulde they haue it Theoph. Rather in Hebrewe than in Greeke for that tongue was sacred and naturall to the Iewes who first spred the Gospel and planted the Churches Phi. The Apostle requireth the people shoulde vnderstande the prayers of the Church otherwise they reape no profite by them and to speake Hebrewe in the Church to them that vnderstood nothing but Greeke were no reason Theo. Are you there at host now Can you plea thus on both sides when you be vrged You are making inuincible arguments that the Apostle speaketh nothing in this place of the Churches seruice before you can iustifie the first proposition which you bring you bee faine to take hold of this very place to prooue the Corinthians had their Church seruice in Greeke Phi. Nay without this place it is euident they had their seruice in greeke The. Set this chapter aside and if you prooue the Corinthians had their seruice in Greeke at this very time when the Apostle wrate wee giue you the cause Phi. You be resolued they had and yet you put vs to prooue it as if it were in doubt Theo. I tel the reason It is euident they had their seruice in a knowen tongue by that which the Apostle here writeth otherwise it is not euident by any other proofe that you can make And since you will haue the Apostle to speake nothing of the Church Seruice in this chapter why shoulde wee not put you to prooue that which you lay for the ground of your misconstring Saint Pauls text Phi. A trueth it is what proofe soeuer may or may not be brought for it Theo. Let it stand for trueth what will you conclude Phi. Nothing is meant then of their Church Seruice Theo. Why so Phi. That was in Greeke and well vnderstood of all the people Theo. A worthy sequele As if it were not possible for some vaine men to disturbe the Church of Corinth notwithstanding the Apostle had left generall direction that al things should be doone in the church vnto edification The Lordes supper was rightly deliuered them was it therefore not abused by some amongst them The like say we for their praiers in the church No doubt Paul ordained at Corinth as he did in al other churches of the Saincts that the people should say Amen to euery blessing and thankesgiuing that was vsed in the Church Might not therfore some of their Elders and ministers to venditate themselues and the gift which they had of God sometimes blesse and make their praiers at the Lords table in a tongue not vnderstoode of the whole multitude Phi. Were they strangers or inhabitants Theo. It skilleth not whether they might bee either Phi. Inhabitants there would vse none other toung than their owne and strangers might not minister Sacramentes in other mens Churches Theo. Some of their own might be so vain glorious as in making their praiers at the Lordes table which was then doone by hart and not after any prescribed order or form to shew the gift of tongues which they receiued of the holy Ghost to an other end and not to commend them-selues without edifiing the hearer Strangers also if they were in place were suffered both to teach and blesse in the Church as well as others that were tied to their Cures by reason that many were sent by the Apostles and by the holy Ghost to visite the Churches and comfort the Christians as they traueled and such were according to their
bee called Church Seruice And where S. Paul by precept from God commaunded all things in the Church both praying and preaching to be doone in such sort as the people might vnderstand say Amen and be edified thereby you conster that of certaine voluntary prayers which some priuate men made in the Church without commission and of the publike and necessary prayers of the Church you holde opinion the people neede not vnderstand them nor say Amen nor looke to bee edified by them And because S. Paul speaketh of preaching as well as of praying you vse the one as an argument to exclude the other which is very bad logike and worse diuinitie You were as good make this for a reason as I warned you in the beginning Christians in their Churches haue sermons ergo they haue neither prayers nor Sacraments which your selfe censured for a very childish and foolish argument Phi. That is no conclusion of ours Theo. Weigh it well and you shall find it the very same that you make For where the Christians vnder the Apostles had in their assemblies first prophesying that is the declaring of Gods wil and reuealing of his word at the which Infidels and newe conuerts not yâ—t baptized might be present and next prayers and Psalmes to celebrate the goodnes and kindnes of God and to prepare their mindes for the Lordes table to the which all the faithfull came with one consent of heart and voyce giuâ—ng thanks to God for their redemption in Christ and blessing his holy name for al the rest of his graces mercies and compassions on them and this was doone by the mouthes of such Pastours and ministers as it pleased the holy ghost to direct inspire for that function and action the people hearing vnderstanding and confirming their prayers and thankes with saying Amen and other diuine Seruice than this they had none you take one part of the Churches exercise whereat Infidels might be which was preaching and declaring the word of God as a strong inference that Saint Paul in that whole chapter though he expressely name the publike praiers psalmes blessings thankesgiuings of the Church meaneth no part of the Church seruice which if you well consider you shall perceiue to bee captious if not ridiculous sophistrie Philand Though Saint Paul speake of many things yet he speaketh not one woorde of Church-seruice which is the point that wee stand on Theo. I pray you what is Church-seruice but Church prayers Psalmes and lessons which because Saint Paul so distinctly reciteth hee can not choose we say but meane the Church-seruice vnlesse you can shewe what seruice the church had or hath besides these which hee nameth Phi. The ministration of the sacraments is none of these which you specifie and yet the chiefest part of the church-seruice and so are other rites which you omit Theo. In the Church-seruice actions may bee necessarie and Rites may bee seemely of which Saint Paul speaketh not because the abuse which hee reprooued was in their tongues and not in their handes but the Church-seruice is properly that which is doone with the mouth for GOD is not serued with moouing or vsing the handes but our lippes shewe forth his prayse and with our voyces wee cal vpon him and this is more rightly termed diuine seruice which is all one with Church-seruice than any corporall acâ—ions or outwarde gestures though they bee lawfull and some of them needeâ—ull as those for example which Christ commanded And euen in the ministration of the Lordes supper woordes are essentiall as well as elements or actions and without words it is both a dumbe action and a dead element In all sacramentes the word that is spoken is farre superiour to the creature that is seene and in this Sacrament by the first institution of our sauiour thankesgiuing is as requisite as eating or drinking Wherefore if S. Paul tooke order for the praiers psalms blessings and thankesgiuing vsed in the Church that they should be vnderstoode of the people as wel as the Doctrines Reuelations and expositions of scriptures which were an other and a necessarie part of the Churches exercise S. Paul we conclude required that all Church seruice should be pronounced in such â—ort and with such speach as the hearers might bee edified and say Amen which they can not to a tongue that they know not Or if that illation seeme not strong enough S. Paul in plain words commaundeth as authorized from God that all things and therefore Church seruice shoulde bee doone to edification and no man is edified by that he vnderstandeth not which is the fault that we find with your Latine Seruice in our Churches where the people vnderstand no tongue but English Phi. Yeas sir the pople in euery Countrie vnderstandeth our seruice For by the diligence of parents Masters and Curats euery Catholike of age almost can tell the sense of euery Ceremonie of the Masse what to answere when to say Amen at the Priests Benediction when to confesse when to adore when to stand when to kneele when to receiue what to receiue when to come when to depart and all other duties of praying and seruing sufficient to saluation Theo. He that hath no better stay must leaue to a broken staffe or lie in the ground You feared to be conuinced as withstanders of S. Pauls Doctrine and therefore you bethought your selues of an other shift which is as bad as the former The Apostle proueth the praiers of the Church must be vnderstood of the people because they must say Amen thereby teaching vs that no man may say Amen except he both perceiue what is saide and also confesse it to be true for otherwise Amen is both a mocke and a lie to no worse person than to God himselfe He that sweareth or affirmeth any mans speach to bee true when he knoweth not what he said is a liar And he that giueth a sound with his mouth his hart not knowing what he asketh maketh a iest of praier and forgetteth himselfe to be a man And for that cause S. Paul vrgeth it as a manifest absurditie for the people to say Amen to that which they vnderstand not though the ministers speach in it selfe be neuer so good and godly This you saw was so apparent that though you cauiled about Church seruice and craked of your inuincible arguments Yet the clearnes of saint Pauls wordes would reach home to the vnfruitfulnes of your Latin seruice in this Realme For his wordes are How shal the vulgar man say Amen at thy thankesgiuing in the Church seeing hee knoweth not what thou sayest And therefore you resolued since you were ouer the shoes in absurdities to goe vp to the shoulders and southâ—astly to say that in euery Countrie euery Catholike of age almost can tell the sense of euery ceremonie of the Masse what to answere where to say Amen at the Priests benediction and all other duties of praying and seruing sufficient to
Priestes woordes and not be parrets Theo. You defende both as well the priuate prayers of rude and simple men in the Latin tongue as the publike prayers of the Church in the same language though the people vnderstande not a worde either what themselues or what the Priest speaketh Philand The West Church hath alwayes had her seruice in the latin tongue Theo. It forceth not in what tongue shee had or haue her seruice so the people vnderstand it Philand In Latin wee bee sure shee had it Theo. Then may you bee sure the people vnderstood it Phi. The one wee can prooue and so can not you the other Theo. Proue you the one and wee will not misse much of the other Phi. It is well neere a thousand yeeres that our people which coulde nothing else but barbarum frendere did sing Alleluia and not praise yee the Lorde And longer agoe since the poore husbandman sang the same at the plough in other Countries Hieron tom 1. epist. 58. And Sursumcorda and kyrie eleyson and the Psalmes of Dauid sung in Latin in the seruice of the primatiue Church haue the auncient and flat testimonies of Saint Cyprian Saint Augustine Saint Hierome and others Gregor lib. 7. cap. 63. Cyprian exposit oratio Dominicaâ— num 13. August ca. 13. de bono perseuerant de bono viduitat cap. 16. and epistola 178. Hieron praefat in Psalm ad Sophron. August de Catechiz rud cap. 9. de Doctrin Christia lib. 2. cap. 13. See epist. 10. August of Saint Hieroms Latin translation read in the Churches of Africa Theo. Are you not out of breath with alleaging so much Phi. Not a whit You buzze in the peoples eares that our seruice in Latin is not auncient and that in the primatiue Church the people alwayes vnderstoode the tongue wherein the Priest spake looke heere to your vtter shame howe wee reprooue you and conuince you for lyars Theo. Will you not sit downe with vs and take such part as you bring Phi. Keepe your curtesie till we need it Theo. You well deserue it though you will not haue it as shall appeare before you depart You bring vs eleuen fathers to prooue that diuine Seruice hath been alwaies in the latin tongue throughout the West Church if not one of them all proue any such thing are you not woorthie to haue the whetstone Phi. I say they doe Theo. I say they doe not and did they proue it as they do not the greatest doubt is yet behind that is the people might vnderstande the Latin tongue and if that were true you are farther off for al these allegations than euer you were Phi. To saue your selues you will imagine any thing bee it neuer so vnlikely or incredible For trowe you that all the West partes vnderstood the Latin tongue Theoph. In those places where the Fathers whome you name lyued and preached the people vnderstoode the Latin tongue very wel Philand Some perhaps that were trauelers or merchants Theo. The common people of those Countries I say vnderstoode it Philand The ciuiler sort might haue a tast of it Theoph. The basest and rudest that were amongst them vnderstoode the Latin tongue as well as their owne if not better Phi. I thought you woulde haue some such miraculous if not monsterous refuge Theo. It is neither miracle nor monster but a plaine and certain trueth In Italie where Hierom and Gregorie were you doubt not but the vulgar people spake Latin as wee doe English Phi. It was their mother tongue Theoph. Then might plough-men crafts-men yea weomen and children well sing the Psalmes and heare the Scriptures reade in the Latin tongue because it was their natiue tongue which they coulde not choose but vnderstand Philand But Africa where Saint Cyprian and Saint Augustine were had an other tongue of their owne and therefore they coulde not doe the like Theo. It was the Romanes policie to bring the barbarous Countries which they subdued and were neere them as much as was possible to vse the same Lawes and speake the same tongue which them-selues did that they might the better like of their regiment And so had they doone in Africa before S. Austen was borne and the people of those partes about Carthage and Hippo where Cyprian and Augustine were Bishoppes though they were not so exquisite in accents declinations and constructions as the Italians were yet vnderstood they the Latin tongue better than they did their owne by reason their owne was litle vsed and the other wholy taken vp to bee spoken as well as vnderstoode by the meanest and yongest amongst them yea to bee taught their Infants euen in the Nources armes Of him-selfe Saint Augustine confesseth that hee learned the Latin tongue in Africa where hee was borne when hee was dandled of his nource and among the pastimes of those that plaied with him and laughed at him whiles as yet hee was learning to speake and that the common people which neuer went to schoole to learne perfectly vnderstoode Latin not only his sermons made to them and his Psalmes made for them against the Donatists in the Latin tongue do clearely conuince but very often in teaching the people hee giueth testimonie that they all vnderstoode the Latin better than the Punike tongue Minding saith hee to haue the cause of the Donatists knowen to the basest most ignorant and the simplest among the people and by our meanes to sticke in their memories I made a Psalme according to the number and order of the Latin letters to be sung by them beginning thus Omnes qui gaudetis And shewing that they vnderstood Latin better than their owne Countrie speach which was Punike he sayth There is a knowen prouerbe in the Punike tongue which I will vtter to you in Latine because you doe not all vnderstande Punike thereby noting that they all vnderstoode the Latin but not the Punike which yet was their Countrie language Phi. Wee will deale liberally with you for once we graunt you this what gaine you by it Theo. Wee gaine nothing but you loose more than you thinke and as much as wee would wish Phi. The losse is so great that I feele it not Theo. You will tyme enough Your Rhemish Testament to astonish the simple citeth nine authorities in a cluster that the seruice was alwaies in Latin throughout the West Church Gregorie li. 7. epi. 63. Cyprian exposit oratio Dom. Hieron praefat in Psalm ad Sophro. and sixe places of Augustine Will it please you to take these nyne backe againe as no way materiall or pertinent to that purpose for which you bring them Phi. You cast them backe in heapes which is no course to answere them Theo. In heapes they came and in heapes let them goe they neede no farther answering Gregorie speaketh of the Citie of Rome Hierom of the men of his tongue Cyprian and Austen of the seruice in Africa where the people perfectly vnderstoode
the Latin tongue or else of those places and Churches where the Latin tongue was vnderstoode not naming any nor including all the West partes as you misreport them but indefinitely speaking of such as vsed and vnderstoode the Romane language Phi. That is it which wee say the Romane language was vsed throughout the West Church Theoph. But none of these Fathers say so besides you They doe not specifie in what Countries or partes of the West it was vsed but speake indistinctly of such as vsed it Phi. That wee say was throughout the West Church Theo. If you were as able to prooue it as you bee to say it you might doe your selues some good Phi. Wee are Theoph. You are not Phi. Gregorie sayde of our people which coulde nothing else but barbarum frendere that a thousand yeres afore out daies they did sing Alleluia and not prayse ye the Lord. And longer agoe the poore husbandmen sang the same at the plough in other Countries Theoph. Is Alleluia latin Philand No it is Hebrewe and signifieth in English as much as Praise yee the Lorde but yet in this Realme at that tyme they sang Alleluia and not Prayse ye the Lord. Theo. That hath some shewe of an argument for the Hebrewe seruice to haue beene then vsed in this and other Countries but not for the Latin Phi. As though the Saxons vnderstoode Hebrewe Theo. Euen as well as they did Latin and in Gregories woordes there is some appearance of proofe for the Hebrewe for the Latin there is none except you will reason thus they sang Alleluia ergo all the rest of their seruice was in Latin Phi. Alleluia is no English ergo they had not their Seruice in the English tongue Theo. And Alleluia is no Latin ergo by your owne logike they had not their seruice in Latin Phi. You erre of ignorance The Latin Church retayned Amen and Alleluia notwithstanding they were Hebrewe in her diuine seruice Theo. God graunt you erre not of malice Did no Church else besides the Latin retaine those Hebrewe woordes in their publike Psalmes and seruice Phi. None but Greeke and Latine And since those whome Gregorie sent to conuert the Saxons could themselues no Greek we conclude they deliuered the Saxons their Church-seruice in Latin Theo. Your conclusion is like your antecedent that is not one true woord in either Did not all Nations in their diuine seruice keepe those two woords Amen and Alleluia Phil. They did for so Saint Augustine auoucheth but all nations besides the Hebrewes had their Church-seruice in Greeke or in Latin Theoph. Doeth Saint Augustine auouche that Phi. That is apparent without any proofe Theoph. It is apparent follie to presume that which you shoulde prooue to bee manifest without any proofe Phi. Can you shew the contrary Theo. Who taught you that order of reasoning when you faâ—le in prouing your premisses to cast the burden vpon others to disproue that which you should prooue And yet goe no farther than this very place of Saint Augustine which your selues alleage and you shall see that all other Nations preserued these two woordes in their barbarous languages as well as the Romanes did in theirs Saint Austens report is this Sciendum est Amen Alleluia quod nec latino nec barbaro licet in suam linguam transferre Hebraeo cunctas gentes vocabulo decantare Wee must vnderstande that all Nations doe sing Amen and Alleluia in the Hebrewe tongue which woordes neither the Latin nor the Barbarian may chaunge into their tongues If the Barbarians might haue no part nor woorde of the diuine Seruice in their seuerall tongues as you say what needed a speciall exemption of these two woordes and no more as vnlawfull to bee translated into their languages In that these might not it importeth the rest might and were and also that eche Countrie in what tongue so euer Romane or barbarous they had their Seruice kept these two Hebrewe woordes Amen and Alleluia vntouched vntranslated for a certaine significance in the words them-selues and a reuerence to the tongue whence they were taken Philand That the Saxons sang Alleluia wee bee sure by this report of Gregorie but that they had their seruice in the Saxon tongue you shall neuer prooue Theoph. Much lesse can you prooue by this place of Gregorie which is your intent that they had their Seruice in the Latin tongue for thus hee sayth not in the sixt chapter as you note but in the eighth of his seuen and twentieth booke vpon Iob. Ecce lingua Britanniae quae nihil aliud nouerat quam barbarum frendere â—amdudum in diuinis laudibus Heâ—raeum caepit Alleluia resonare Beholde the tongue of Britannie which could do nothing but ye all out a barbarous noyse now of late hath begun in the prayses of God to sing the Hebrewe Halleluia If you take the tongue of Britanie for the speach of the Saxons then inhabiting this land as it may well signifie since there is good difference between the tongue of Britannie and the tongues of the Britanes and lingua Britanniae is very hard latin for linguae Britannorum then it is cleare by Gregories coÌ„fession that the Brittish tongue was vsed of the people euen at that tyme to sing the prayses of God in their Churches the Hebrewe Hallelu ia and not the Latin seruice being preserued amongst them in their barbarous language as it was amongst all other Nations by Saint Augustines testimonie were they Grecians Romanes or Barbarians If you will haue it stand not for the speach of the countrie but for the mouthes and lippes of the men them-selues Hallelu ia they learned because it might not be chaunged the rest of the Latine seruice neither they coulde learne as knowing no tongue but their owne nor the Romanes could teach as hauing no skil in the Saxon tongue and therefore if the people sang any prayses at all vnto God as Gregorie sayth they did they must sing them in their mother tongue for other tongue they had none Philand Coulde they not learne Latin as well as Hebrewe Theoph. Both a like but that one woorde as Amen or Hallelu ia is soone learned the Latin Psalmes and seruice are no way possible for them to learne or remember Philand Saint Hierom sayth the poore husbandmen sang it at the plough in other Countries Theoph. What are his woordes Philand Quocunque te verteris arator stiuam tenens Allelu ia decantat Whither soeuer thou turne thy selfe the husbandman holding his plough singeth Allelu ia Why did you doubt of them Theo. Because I find them not tom 1. epi. 58. as you quote them except you haue quotations as you haue religions by your selues Philand Well these bee Saint Hieroms woordes Theoph. I knowe they are but you are as wide from the true constering as you were from the true quoting of them if you bee not wider Phi. Howe can that bee Theoph. What Countries spake
and therfore I rest on it as on the truer though neither damnifie vs as touching this question the worth of a dodkin Phi. It were absurd to thinke that euery of the vulgar sort vnderstoode the Latine tongue Theo. Then is it more absurde when Bede saith The Latine tongue was made common to all the other foure tongues of this Land by the meditation of the Scriptures to interprete that of the vulgar sort and to refer it to the church seruice as you do Phi. You haue skanned our proofes at your pleasure but where all this while are yours that any christian Nation had their publike Seruice in a barbarous tongue I count all tongues barbarous besides the three learned toungs which are Latine Greeke and Hebrew Theo. In what toung ech Nation had their Seruice is nowe harde to bee knowen so many hundrethes yeares after and needlesse to bee discussed For when wee once founde it a rule laide downe by Sainct Paul that All thinges in the Church should be done to edification as well praying singing and thankesgiuing as preaching expounding the word which he calleth prophesieng and that no man is edified by that hee vnderstandeth not and also that the seruice in those two places and churches whereof we haue any records left was common to Priest and people and parted betweene them by verses and respondes the whole people men women and children singing the Psalmes answering to euery part of the seruice and saying Amen to the prayers that were made in all their names lastly that the catholike fathers in their seuerall times and cures taught the people should and witnes the people did vnderstande the publike prayers of the church what neede wee seeke further for barbarous Nations and tongues whereof we haue no monumenâ—â— wherein no famous or learned men wrote whose labors are come to our age or knowledge Phi. I thought you would shrinke when wee came to the quicke you loue to picke holes in other mens coates but not to shew your owne Belike it is so rotten it will not indure the handling Theo. Let the coate alone and come to the case Wee haue the flatte commaundement of God that all thinges in the Church shoulde bee doone to edification and the Apostles inferment that the simple man is not edified when hee vnderstandeth not what is said Your shiftes were that S. Paul spake not of the church prayers nor of the learned tongues Those wee haue refelled and are nowe come to the practise of Christes church which taking her direction from S. Pauls doctrine in this place framed her publike prayers in such order that the Pastour and people with ioyntlie and interchangeably blessed and praied eche with other and either for other not houlding it enough for the simple to say Amen they knewe not to what but requiring and appointing their deuoute distinct and intelligent answeres confessions blessinges and thankesgiuinges as well in the ministration of the Lordes supper as in other partes of their publike seruice The manner of their seruice where the whole church did with one heart and one voice sing praises to God and make their common supplications vnto him is the best exposition that may bee brought for the true construction of Sainct Pauls wordes and therein the auncient and Catholike church of Christ goeth expressely with vs and directly against you as appeareth by all the fathers that euer wrate of these thinges by the very sight and view of their liturgies by your owne authorities which here you abuse yea by the partes and prayers of your Masse-booke prescribed for the people to requiâ—e the priest with and yet remaining in force and dayly vse amongest you In your Apostolike constitutions written by no worse man as you say than by Clemens successour to Peter and fellow labourer in the Gospell with hâ—m this order of seruice at the Lords table was prefixed to the whole Church were they Hebrewes Greekes Romanes Barbarians or whatsoeuer if they were Christians The Bishop shall say the grace of almighty God the loue of our Lord Iesus Christ and the communion of the holy spirit be with you al. And all the people shall answere with one voice And with the spirit Again let the Bishop say Lift vp your harts all let answere We lift them vp vnto the Lord. And againe the Bishop Let vs giue thankes vnto the Lord and all shall answere It is meete and right so to doe And at the ende of that praier it followeth Et omnis populus simul dicat and let all the people with one voice say holy holy holy Lord of hostes The heauen and earth are full of thy glory blessed art thou for euer Amen And so after Let the Bishop say the peace of God be with you all Let all the people answere and with the spirite Let the Bishop admonish the people with these wordes holy thinges for holy persons And let the people answere one holy one Lord one Christ be blessed for euer to the glory of God the father Osanna to the sonne of Dauid Blessed is hee that commeth in the name of the Lord the Lord our God hath appeared vnto vs. Osanna in the hiest If in euerie Church the people were to know when and what to answere in their diuine seruice and with many full and whole sentences to confirme and requite the Bishops prayers and blessinges it is euident they were to vnderstand their owne and the Bishoppes speech which in a straunge and vnknowen tongue such as is vsed in your churches it is not possible for simple men and women to doe Phi. You impugned these constitutioÌ„s but euen now as none of the Apostles Theo. But you receiue them vrge them as Apostolike and therefore against you such proofes are pregnant And so are the Liturgies that is the church prayers which are vnder the names of Iames Basill and Chrysostom in which the like order of praying and blessing by course is appointed both for Prieste and people Let the places be seene if they be not obuious to euery mans eyes let me be rebuked of a bould vntrueth Phi. Your selues admit not those Liturgies Theo. Wee doe not thinke that either Basil or Chrysostom would take vpon them to make a new forme of church seruice if S. Iames the Apostle had doone it before them neitherâ— was the Greeke church to seeke of her seruice till their times or toâ— change it at their pleasures yet the thinges which wee alleage out of these Liturgies haue the manifest testimonies as well of Basill and Chrysostom as of other catholike Fathers both Greeke and Latine in their vnforged vndistrusted writinges Chrysostom expressing the maner of the church in his time sayth Euen in the prayers of the church a man may see the people helpe or offer much togither with the priest for those that are possessed with wicked spirits for the repeÌ„tants CoÌ„munes enim preces à sacerdote
ab illis fiunt omnes vnam dicunt orationem For the priest and the people make their praiers in common and they all vtter the same wordes in their petitions to God Againe when we haue excluded them out of the church that may not be partakers of the holy table and fall a fresh to prayer we all prostrate our selues togither and all rise vp togither When peace is to be imparted wee all salute one an other In the very same dreadfull mysteries the priest prayeth for the people and the people pray for the priest For their answere And with the spirit hath none other meaning Ea quae sunt Eucharistia id est gratiarum actionis communia sunt omnia The prayers of the Eucharist that is of the thankesgiuing at the Lordes table are all common For the priest doeth not onely giue thankes but all the people Out of the which number were none excepted neither men women nor children as Basill shortly but fully decribeth the sound of the whole church praying togither If the sea bee good and beautifull in the sight of God how much more beawtifull is such an assemblie of the church as we haue here in which the mingled souÌ„d of men women and children making their common prayers ascendeth vnto our God as the noise of waues beating against the bankes The Latine church obserued the same as Iustinus reporting the order of the christian assemblies in his time witnesseth On the day which is called sunday all that are in townes or villages meete togither in one place where the writinges of the Apostles and Prophetes are read as the hower permitteth vs when the reader ceaseth the pastour warneth and exhorteth vs to imitate the good thinges that haue beene read vnto vs Then rise wee all and iointly make our prayers after the which ended bread and wine with water are brought to the place he that is chiefe among vs maketh his prayers and giueth thankes in the best manner hee can Perfectis precibus gratiarum actione populus omnis qui adest benedicit dicens Amen At the end of his prayers and thankes all the people that are present do blesse and say Amen Amen in Hebrew signifieth as much as God graunt it may be so S. Augustine noting the vse of the church in his dayes saith We cal vpon one God we heare one Gospel read we sing one psalme we answere one Amen wee sound out one Hallelu ia The Church sayeth Sainct Ambrose is often very fitly compared to the Sea which at first rusheth in the praiers of the whole people as it were in the flowing of hir waues and then soundeth with the respondes of psalmes and with the singing of men women maydens and young boyes much after the roaring of mighty waters The reason of this general ioyning in praier among the christiaÌ„s Leo wel declareth in these words Most ful forgiuenes of sins is obtained wheÌ„ the whol church pronounceth euery man the same praier the same confession For if the Lord haue promised to performe that which two or three of the godly consenting togither shal aske what shall bee denied to an assembly of many thowsands beseeching in one spirit with one accord which was Tertul meaning loÌ„g before wheÌ„ he said of al christiaÌ„s We meet in coÌ„panies assemblies that comming as it were an army or in troups vnto god we may eâ—eÌ„ vrge him with our praiers Haec vis Deo grata est this force is acceptable vnto God In this sort it coÌ„tinued 600. yeares as appeareth by Isidore Oportet vt quando psallitur psallatur ab omnibis cuÌ„ oratur oâ—etur ab omnibus quaÌ„do lectio legitur facto sileÌ„tio aequè audiatur ab omnibus Ideo diaconus clara voce silentiuÌ„ admonet vt siue duÌ„ psallitur siue dum lectio pronunciatur ab omnibus vnitas coÌ„seruetur vt quod omnibus praedicatur ab omnibus equaliter audiatur This must of necessâ—ty be kept in the church seruice that wheÌ„ they sing al sing wheÌ„ they pray al pray wheÌ„ the lessoÌ„ is read with sileÌ„ce it be heard alike of al. For therfore the deacoÌ„ coÌ„mandeth sileÌ„ce that whether they sing â—â— read al may do the like that which is spokeÌ„ to al should equally be heard of al. Yea Charls the great 800. yeres after christ took order by his lawes not only that the people shold say certain parts of yâ— seruice with the priest but that the pastors should preach it to bee necessary for the simple to vnderstaÌ„d their praiers yâ— euery man might know what he demaÌ„ded aâ— the haudes of God Glory be to the father to the son to the holy ghost c. shal be sung of al meÌ„ with al honor the priest with the people of God shal sing with one voice as the angels do holy holy holy Lord God of saboth The bishops shal diligeÌ„tly look that the priests throughly perceiue the praiers of their masse both theÌ„selues vnderstaÌ„d the Lords praier preach that al must vnderstand it that euery man may know what he asketh of god So IustiniaÌ„ before him could coÌ„mand that al Bishops priests within the Romane Monarchy shold celebrate the sacred oblatioÌ„ of the Lords supper and the praiers vsed in baptisme not in secret but with a loude and cleare voice that the minds of the hearers might be stirred vp with more deuotion to expresse the praises of the Lord God For so saith he the Apostle teacheth 1. Corinth If thou blesse with the spirit how shal he that keepeth the place of the priuat or lay maÌ„ say Amen at thy thanksgiuing vnto God because he wotteth not what thou saiest Thou giuest thanks wel but the other is not edified And in his epist. to the Rom. With the hart we beleeue vnto righteousnes with the mouth we confesse vnto saluation For which respects it is fit that those praiers which are vsed in the sacred oblatioÌ„ as wel as others shold be pronouÌ„ced by the bishops priests with a clear voice let the religious bishops priests know that if they neglect so to do they should yeeld an account in the dreadful iudgement of the great God for it and wee hauing information of them will not leaue them vnpunished But what need we elder or other testimonies your Masse-book which at this day you depend so much on coÌ„uinceth that the people at first did stil should vnderstaÌ„d the praiers which yâ— priest maketh eueÌ„ at the very altar sacrifice it self those being thinges of the greatest secrecy most sublimity that you haue Phi. Can you persuade vs that our Masse-book maketh with you The. Choose whether you wil be perswaded or no but you must needes be abashed to see the wordes of your own booke fight against your error Phi. Faith then our luck is bad Theo. It is euen so bad if it be not
through their rehearsall by consenting to their wordes be stirred or moued to depend on God The Priest therefore in his church seruice though he direct his heart to God yet doeth hee open his mouth for their sakes that are present that they may be both kindled and guided by the sounde and sense of his wordes to ioyne with him in offering to GOD one agreement of heart and voice which is the cause why publike prayer was ordained And euen at this day in your Masse the Priest speaketh not one worde in his owne person but in euery praier both warneth the people to pray with him and speaketh in their persons as well as in his own For example Let vs praie let vs giue thanks we beseech we offer we praise we blesse we adore which argueth that at the first institution of your owne seruice the people did were bound to marke and vnderstand the Priests wordes with answering Amen to acknowledge and confâ—â—m his prayers to be their desires and requestes vnto God though now you shut vp their eares mouthes that they can neither vnderstand you nor knowe what to answere you but only open their eyes to beholde your gestures as if it were not a place for praier but a stage for dumbe shewes to delight the senses Phi. You make certain petite reasons against vs for the seruice in the vulgar tongue but had they beene sufficient do you thinke the church of Christ would haue taken vp the contrary custome for these fifteene hundreth yeares Theo. I thinke shee would not by her church seruice I proue shee did not Phi. You proue the people vnderstood the seruice by course answered and consented to that which was sayde in the church but this doth not proue that the prayers were in any other tongue besides the Latine Greeke or Hebrewe which is our assertion Theo. This is it which I tolde you before that finding the people did vnderstand the diuine seruice in the Primatiue church and that no praiers were counted publike vnlesse they had the consent answere of the whole multitude we neede not care in what toungs this was done The Hebrew Greeke Latine Armenian Indian Persian Syrian Gothian tongâ—es are they not all alike to God Must not barbarous Nations be edified by their praiers as well as the ciuiler or learneder sort of men There is no respect of persons with God is there of tongues Phi. The three learned tongues were dedicated in our Sauiours crosse the rest were not Theo. Who set vp those titles on the crosse the Lord which suffered or Pilate which condemned him vniustly to death Philan. What though Pilate set them vp Theo. If Pilate were a wicked Pagan and his fact wickedder in proclaâ—ming the Sonne of God for a Traitour and an aspirer to the Crowne of Iurie in Hebrewe Greeke and Latine letters what reason can this be why God will not or shoulde not bee serued in any other tongue but in one of these Haue you no better examples than Caiphas to vphold the Popes Tribunall and Pilate to commend your Latine seruice Phi. Yeas we haue the church of God Theo. Then why conceale you that and bring foorth Pilates impietie to prescribe a rule in the church of God against the Apostle Phi. The tongues were good though his fact were euill Theo. And dare you say that any tongue in the world is not good Phi. Good they bee all but not so good as any of these to serue God in Theo. Recoile you back againe to that errour that God is an accepter of tongues Phi. You call it an errour Theo. So is it and that a verie grosse errour For God accepteth the zeale of the heart not the sound of the mouth and though to vs there is some difference in the perfection and pleasantnesse of the speech to God in deuotion of praier there is none He saith Origen that is Lord of all tongues heareth those that praie in any tongue For God the gouernour of the whole world is not as one that hath chosen the Greeke or some other barbarous tongue and is ignorant of the rest or neglecteth those that speake vnto him in any other tongue And since he hath made all tongues requireth not the sounde of our mouthes for himselfe but for our selues it is wilfull folly to say that prayers bee sanctified or accepted to God in one toung and not in all tongues alike Phi. Still I say the Church of God hath no such custome which Saint Paul himselfe laieth downe for a sure direction in all church matters Theo. Take you the negligent abuse of late yeares in some places for the custome of Gods church Or doe you thinke it pietie to pretende any custome of your owne against the commaundement of God Phi. Any thing which the whole Church doeth practise and obserue throughout the world to dispute thereof as though it were not to bee doone is most insolent madnesse as S. Augustine verie notably saith in his 118. epi. Theo. S. Augustin doth not say that you may prefer custom before the Scriptures or change the auncient custome of Christes church in making her praiers in a vulgar and knowen tongue with a newer order of your owne in tying the people to a strange and vnknowen language either of those by the verdict of Augustine in this verie place is that most insolent madnes which you would seeme to fasten on others And yet you miserably racke this place of Augustine For of two parts you dissemble the first that you may pull the second to your purpose and in the seconde you leaue out two conditions which your Author addeth and were the text truely cited your application is so false in the sight of all men that none but mad men would venter on so desperate an assertion as you haue doone For that the whole church of God throughout the world euer had or at this day hath her seruice in an vnknowen tongue or in Latine well you might vtter it in a dreame but neuer sober man said it being broad awaked well aduised The wordes of S. Augustine being consulted of the rites and ceremonies of the Church not of the doctrine or faith of the church are these If the authoritie of the Diuine Scripture prescribe in any of these rites and ceremonies what is to bee doone I answere there may bee no doubt but that we must doe as we reade Similiter si quid horum tota die per orbem obseruat Ecclesia The like I say if any of these rites bee obserued of the whole church thoroughout the whole world at this present day for to dispute that we should do otherwise is most insolent madnesse The scripture is first to be respected obeied if that prescribe no certainty the custom of the vniuersall church is to be folowed in those rites which are neither against the faith nor good
but let a man examine himself and so eate of this bread and drinke of this cup that is before hee eate of this breade and drinke of this cup and he shall find that contentious and riotous persons such as they were in their feastes bee no sit ghestes for that heauenly Supper And yet to vs it is all one whether it were before or after at their bankers and feastes it was ministred and eueÌ„ serued at their tables as S. Augustine noteth in these words Non debent fratres mensis suis ista miscere sicut faciebant quos Apostolus arguit emendat The brethren ought not to haue these mysteries serued at their tables as they did whome the Apostle reprooueth and refourmeth And had not the Lordes Supper beene abused among them what needed the rehearsall of the first institution to the which because the Apostle recalleth them it is euident they were fallen from it Nowe abuses in this place S. Paul mentioneth none but drunkennesse dissention and defrauding the poore and since drunkennesse and deceiuing the poore as you auouche can not agree to the Sacrament it followeth that dissention was the thing which defaced the Lordes Supper among them in that they would neither at coÌ„mon meats nor at the Lordes Supper sit al together but sort them selues in factions and companies as they fauoured and friended eche other This was the fault which S. Paul first rebuked when hee beganne to redresse the thinges that troubled the Church of Corinth They contended about Baptisme saying I am Pauls and I am Apollos and I am Cephaes and their dissention so increased and came to that sharpnes that they woulde haue their tables in the Church and euen the Lordes Supper also eche company by them selues The false Apostles sayth Ambrose had sowen such discorde among them that they stood striuing for their oblations Hierom saith In ecclesia conuenieÌ„tes oblationes suas separatim offerebant Meeting in the church they deliuered their oblations to seueral companies according as euery man fansied the parties And againe Nemo alium expectabat vt communiter offeretur No man expected one an other that the oblation might be common And S. Paul as Chrysostom thinketh brought the Table Supper where the Lord himselfe was and at which sate all his Disciples euen Iudas the Traytour for an example to shew them that that is rightly iudged to be The Lordes Supper quae omnibus simul conuocatis concorditer communiter sumitur which is receiued in common and with one consent of all assembled together Yea S. Augustine affirmeth that The Apostle speaking of this Sacrament saith for which cause brethren when you assemble together to eate expect one an other Your obseruations therefore are first false when you say these circumstances can not agree to the holy Sacrament For euen these which you name as most vnlikeliest are applied by the fathers to the Lordes Supper Expecting one an other you heard S. Augustine referre directly to this Sacrament Deuouring of all by the rich and drunkennesse S. Hierom expoundeth likewise of the verie same mysterie The Apostle sayth one is drunke and an other hungrie for this reason Quia superuenientibus mediocribus volentibus sumere Sacramenta deerant quoniam ab illis qui obtulerant oblationes in communi conuiuio fuerant cuncta consumpta Because the meaner sort comming after the rich mynding to receiue the Sacraments there was nothing left to minister the Sacrament withall they that brought the oblations deuouring all in their common banket Haymo sayth One is hungrie that is hee which for pouertie is not able to bring wheaten bread and wyne to bee consecrated for the Communion an other to witte the riche and wealthie man is drunken and surfeyteth as well with other meates as with the sacraments of the body and blood of the Lord. Next did some of them not agree to the sacraments of the Lordes table as surfeyting deuouring and drunkennesse yet other circumstaunces as schismes not expecting one an other may and doe very fitly serue for the Lordes Supper as you see by the iudgement of those Fathers whom I haue named Thirdly did no circumstaunces of their disorders agree to the right institution of the Sacrament yet so long as Saint Paul refelleth their doinges in the Church as vnseemely for the sacred mysteries there prepared and receiued what reason haue you to deny that Saint Paul meaneth the sacrament where hee sayth when you come together if you fall to filling your bellies and despising the poore as you doe in your feastes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 You can not or this is not the right way to eate the Lordes Supper For this is plaine to him that hath but halfe an eye that Saint Paul checketh them as vnwoorthie partakers by these their abuses of the mysteries of Christ and interpreteth the plagues which some of them felt to bee Gods scourges for their loosenes in that behalfe and therefore with great reasons might hee beginne to reprehend them as vnâ—it approchers to the Sacrament and vtter so much in these woordes when you come together this is not the way to eate the Lordes Supper or to haue accesse to his table to make schismes at your feastes in the Church with excesse in your selues and reproche to others Phi. If you will needes haue the Sacrament called the Lordes Supper keepe you that name and wee will keepe ours as more auncient and Catholike by the testimonie of Saint Augustine S. Ambrose and the rest whome I cited before for the antiquitie of the blessed Masse Theo. Hee that wil boldly deny a trueth will easily affirme a falsehood S. Augustine in all the works that be vndoubtedly his neuer so much as once named the Masse The Sermons de tempore which you produce are collected out of other mens writings as well as his and many of them found vnder the names of other authors and fauour litle either of Austens learning or phrase as Erasmus confessed when he first surueyed them S. Ambrose hath the woorde once and so haue two Prouinciall Councels of Africa Leo hath it twise which is all that you can finde in sixe hundreth yeres till Gregorie the first came and vsed the woorde somewhat oftener yet none of these cal the Sacrament or Sacrifice by that name as you would haue it but rather expresse by that word the auncient order of the primatiue church in sending away such as might not be partakers of the Lords table as in place where I noted before And that Missa with the fathers doeth signifie not the Masse but leaue to depart before or after the communion your owne fellowes wil instruct you whom you may not wel distrust as being with you though you trust not vs that are against you Polydore repeateth and alloweth the same with these woordes Mihiverò prior ratio probatur vt
steps Phil. Cyprian saith there must be water as well as wine Theo. But whē he alleadgeth Christes example that the cup must be mingled he meaneth the mixture of wine not of water And so he expoundeth himself very often in that epistle Calix qui inebriat vtique vino mixtus est the cup which maketh drunke no doubt is mixed with wine And againe A Domino admoniti instructi sumus vt calicem Dominicum vino mixtum secundum quod Dominus obtulit offeramus We be taught and instructed by the Lord that we should offer the Lords cup mingled with wine according as the Lord did offer it So that the commistion which Cyprian requireth by vertue of Christs institution is not of water which at that present was not in question but of wine which by the olde Testament he prooueth was foretolde of Christ that he should offer and by the new he sheweth that he did offer in the cup which he deliuered to the twelue Apostles You therefore abuse Cyprians words when you bring them to prooue that Christ had water as wel as wine and that if we leaue out either we follow not Christs example for he namely vrgeth Christs action for the vse of wine and that if we omit we violate the Lords institution Philan. Cyprians reason will declare that he speaketh of both and his words to that ende are so manifest that we maruel you wil stand in it Thus he saith In sanstificando calice Domini offerri aqua sola non potest quomodo nec vinum solum potest Nam si vinum tantum quis offerat sanguis Christi incipit esse sine nobis si verò aqua sit sola plebs incipit esse sine Christo. In sanctifying our Lordes chalice water alone may not bee offered as also not wine alone For if a man offer wine alone the bloode of Christ beginneth to bee there without vs. And if water alone be offered the people beginne to bee in the cup with-out Christ. And therefore he resolueth Quando in calice vino aqua miscetur Christo populus adunatur When water is mixed in the chalice with wine then the people is vnited vnto Christ. Theo. Sir we neuer denied that Cyprian spake of water in one part of the Sacrament and to continue the vse thereof alluded to the mysticall interpretation of water which Saint Iohn maketh in his Reuelation when he saith The waters which thou sawest where the whoore of Babylon sitteth are peoples multitudes Nations and tongues but it is one thing to alledge Christs institution for the necessitie of hauing water in the sacred cup which Cyprian did not and an other thing to play with figures and allegories as Cyprian doth when he sheweth what water may signifie That Christ mixed water with wine at his last Supper no Scripture reporteth and the Gospell kéeping silence no man can iustly prooue it And therefore Cyprian neyther did nor could auouch any such thing but that water was and might be vsed in the Church of GOD and in Saint Iohns vision of the whoore of Babylon was parabolically taken for nations and countries this we can graunt both to you and to Cyprian without any preiudice And yet I must let you vnderstand that neither this kind of prouing by parables is alwais sound nor this collection that without water the people is not figured in the Lords cup is any néedful point of christian religiō For Cyprian himselfe elsewhere sheweth that wine alone in the Lords cup though no water be added resembleth the people vnited to Christ far better than water that resemblance is alledged subscribed vnto by S. Augustine the other is not When the Lord called his body bread that is made of the kneading together of many corns he declareth the vnion of our people whose burden he bare And when he called his blood wine which is pressed out of many kernels and clusters of grapes and gathered into one liquor he signifieth also our flocke coupled with the permixtion of a multitude conioined And this way he saith the Lords sacrifices declare the vnitie of Christians knit togither with firme inseparable charitie whose words S. Austen repeateth and commendeth writing against the Donatists And vseth the very same in a Sermon of his owne concerning this matter As to make the visible kinde of bread many cornes are kneaded into one lump of dough so also of the wine brethren call to your memories how it is made one Many grapes hang in the cluster but their iuice runneth into one liquor Wherupon he concludeth that the Lord hath consecrated at his table the mysterie of our peace and vnitie This similitude is grounded on the nature of the elements and signification of the Sacraments the other is not and that the faithfull be not ioined to Christ their head in this mysterie but by mingling water with wine this doctrine is neither safe nor true by the confession of either side yours ours especially yours for you exclude the people not only from the water but also from the wine and yet by the bread alone you suppose them to be coupled and vnited to Christ their head and we for our side confesse that both parts alike doe knit vs vnto Christ as well the bread as the cup and that not the mixing or tempering of either element but the due receiuing of both doth incorporate vs into Christ. Phil. Then you refuse this saying of Cyprians as vntrue Theo. We can giue Cyprian leaue to dally with allegories and to allude to the mingling of water wine then vsed in the Church but we can not giue you leaue to deriue it from Christs institution and to make it an essentiall part of the Sacrament And yet you crosse Cyprians authoritie more than we doe For where the mixing of water with wine is required by Cyprian that the people and not the Priests onely might be ioined with Christ in that part of the mysterie you retain the action and frustrate the signification by taking both wine and water from the people of God and therby shew that your mixture is wholy superfluous as not directed to that end which Cyprian speaketh of but rather to the contrary And of all others you may least indure Cyprians comparison for he saith that after cōsecration as Christ is in the wine so the people is in the water and if you transubstantiate the water into the people as you do the wine into Christ and bring them within the compasse of your chalice you had néede of a chalice as wide as the church or else you shall shrewdly throng them together Your doctrine therefore reiecteth the meaning and saying of Cyprian more than ours and with more pride we hauing the gospel for our discharge when we say that Christ commanded no mixture in his last Supper your owne Schooles with one consent to affirme with vs
that water is no necessarie part of this Sacrament The Gospell in plaine spéech reporteth of our Sauiour that he dranke the fruit of the vine His owne words are I say vnto you I will not drinke henceforth of this fruit of the vine which surely saith Chrysostom yeeldeth wine and not water Your owne Schooles conclude flatly with vs against you Non est aqua vino miscenda de necessitate Sacramenti To mingle water with wine is no necessarie point of this Sacrament Water by the position of your owne Schooles is not necessary then of consequent arbitrary that is euery church hath ful liberty to vse wine alone as Christ did with out danger of departing or dissenting frō the primatiue church though they for some respects delaied their wine with water and the Sacrament is as perfect and as consonant to Christs institution without the mixture of water as with it Phi. That Christ vsed wine we do not deny but we auouch that he also mingled it with water Theo. We knowe you auouch it but we would sée you proue it Phi. Cyprian saith it Theo. Cyprian saith it not he saith rather the contrarie Inuenimus vinum fuisse quod sanguinem suum dixit We finde it was wine which the Lord called his blood And againe Cum dicat Christus ego sum vitis vera sanguis Christi non aqua est vtique sed vinum Wheras Christ saith I am a true vine surely the blood of Christ is not water but wine And againe he saith that Noë typum futurae veritatis ostendens non aquam sed vinum biberit foreshewing a figure of the truth that should follow dranke not water but wine Phi. Not water alone but mixed with wine Theo. Then all that Cyprian either pretendeth or alledgeth Christ institution for is the hauing of wine not of water and though he vse the words mixtus and miscere very often yet his meaning is to proue by scripture the adding of wine not of water to the Lords cup. Phi. He nameth both wine water as I haue shewed you Theo. And as I haue answered you both were lawful and then vsed in the church but Christs institution is vrged by him for wine and not for water and though he call the cup mixtus mingled because there might be and were then both in vse yet the scriptures which he citeth concerning this Sacrament and the figures which he bringeth make cléerely for wine and not for water And therefore that Christ mingled water at his last Supper or commanded vs so to doe can not be prooued by Cyprian nor any other learned and ancient father but that the church of Christ tempered her wine with water though not in all places nor at all times as your boasting vaine serueth you to affirme that we grant may be proued by Cyprian and others and was euer confessed by vs mary that is not our question You charge vs with the breaches of Christs institutiō in which and in euery part of which there is an absolute necessitie that you should proue if you could tell which way to do it but your loftie words and weake proofes haue no coherence you speake it in state as if it were more than Gospell and when you come to bring foorth your proofes you wrest a poore place of Cyprians and so take your leaues Phil. We bring you S. Iames Masse which in expresse termes affirmeth that Christ after Supper taking the cup and mingling it with wine water sanctified it blessed it and gaue it to his Disciples Theop. Of Iames Masse I haue spoken before In such rotten records neither receiued nor regarded in the Church of Christ till errour and ignorance grew so great that the Pastours could not or would not discerne fables from truths and forgeries from sincerities lieth the summe of your late Rhemish religion but take back your Monkish corruptions and let vs haue likely testimonies for that you say or none you may alleage S. Iames Gospell which is yet extant with as good credit as S. Iames Masse and so the Gospels of Nicodemus Thomas Andrew Barnabas and Bartholomew or if those like you not the Acts of Peter Philip and Andrew and the Reuelations of Paul Steuen and Thomas for these be of the very same mint and stamp that Iames Masse and the Apostles canons and constitutions are but knowe you Sir that as Heretikes and other idle persons forged these things in their names so the Church of Christ euer reiected them as false and hereticall and suffered no christians to ground their actions or doctrines on such corruptiōs Phil. Sainct Basils Masse confirmeth the same The words are Likewise taking the cup of the fruite of the grape mingling it giuing thanks and blessing and sanctifieng it he gaue it to his holy Disciples Theoph. A pigge of the same sow They that would offer to broach their fansies in the Apostles names would neuer sticke at the Fathers works It is easie to put Ambrose Austens Basils and Chrysostoms names to any thing and yet the word which is vsed in Basils Liturgie doth not conuince the mingling of water with wine and Chrysostoms Liturgie doth apparently shew that water was mingled with wine for the people long after consecration and yet before distribution which argueth my saying to be most true that they delaied their wine for sobrietie they did not mixe it for any mysterie Phil. Sainct Basill I am sure saith Miscens Christ mingling the wine gaue it to his disciples Theo. The Gréek words for miscens mixtus if they come from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do not alwaies signifie the mingling of water with wine but generally the tempering or pouring out of wine for him that shall drinke though none other kind of liquour be added to it Erasmus giueth that obseruation vpon the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Sainct Iohn so vseth it whē he sayeth He shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is mixed or poured without mingling into the cup of his wrath where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being without mixture is said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is mingled or rather infused into the cup of Gods wrath Upon which spéech Erasmus noteth Graecis 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dicitur quod infunditur in calicem bibituro etiamsi non aqua diluatur aut alio potus genere The Grecians call that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when any thing is powred into a cup for him that shall drinke though it be not delaied with water or any other kind of liquour In this sense manie of the Fathers that wrate in Gréeke may vse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and yet no mingling with water can be inferred vpon those words as your interpreters ouer gréedily imagine Phil. You pare the words of Saint Basils Liturgie but Saint Iames Masse is so
it or recall you backe from your enterprise is sacrilege Woe bee to you that call good euill and euill good which set darkenesse for light and light for darkenesse and put bitter for sweete and sweete for bitter Woe bee to you that are so wise in your owne eyes and so prudent in your owne conceites that you preferre your owne Counsell before the wisedome of God Philand Nay you preferre your wittes before the whole Church of GOD you woulde not other-wise take vppon you to controle your forefathers and teachers in such sort as you doe Theoph. If they forsooke their fathers yea GOD him-selfe why shoulde wee not renounce them rather as parricides than resemblance of their auncestours Philand They were Catholikes and so are wee Theoph. You leaue the steppes both of Christ and his Church and yet you must and will bee catholikes Philand Wee followe them better than you doe Theoph. So it appeareth by your halfe communion which they condemned for sacrilege and you embrace for Religion Phi. Here is such a stirre about eating and drinking as though all consisted therein and in the meane while you neglect and abolish the holy and vnbloody sacrifice which is farre more Catholike than your communion Theo. You neede not make so light of eating and drinking at the Lordes table There depende greater promises and dueties on that than on your vnbloody sacrificing the sonne of God As often as yee shall eate this breade and drinke this cup yee shewe the Lordes death till hee come Without eating and drinking therefore the Lordes death is not shewed The bread which we breake to be eaten is it not the communion of Christes body The cup of blessing which wee blesse that all may drinke of it is it not the communion of Christes blood If wee refuse eating the one or drinking the other can we be partakers of Christ or his spirit Hee that eateth my flesh sayth our sauiour and drinketh my blood dwelleth in mee and I in him and except you eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his blood yee haue no life in you These bee the fruites and effectes of religions and worthie eating and drinking at the Lordes table shewe vs the like for your sacrificing and wee will thinke you had some occasion though no reason to turne the Lords Supper into an offering Philand This one Sacrifice hath succeeded all other and fulfilled all other differences of Sacrifices and hath the force and vertue of all other to be offered for all persons and causes that the others for the lyuing and the dead for sinnes and for thankesgiuing and for what other necessitie soeuer of body or soule Bee not these as great and good effectes of our Sacrifice as those which you nowe rehearsed for eating and drinking at the Altar Theo. They bee great if you had as good authoritie for the one as wee haue for the other Philand Wee haue better Theo. Wee must giue you leaue to say so but you shall giue vs leaue not to beleeue you Phi. All the fathers with one consent stand on our side for the Sacrifice Theoph. Were it so that yet is many degrees beneath the credite of our conclusion You bring vs the speaches of men wee bring you the woorde of God I trust you will aguise some difference betwixt them Phi. As though wee coulde not bring you Scriptures as well as fathers for the sacrifice of the Masse Melchisedec by his oblation in bread and wyne did properly and most singularly prefigurate this office of Christes eternall Priesthoode and sacrificing himselfe vnder the formes of breadâ— and wyne which shall contynue in the Church throughout all Christian Nations in steede of all the offeringes of Aarons Priesthood as the Prophet Malachie did foretell as Saint Cyprian Saint Iustine Saint Irineus and others the most auncient Doctors and Martyrs doe testifie Cyprian epistola 63. num 2. Iustin. dial cum Trypho post med Iren. libro 4. capit 32. And Saint Augustine libro 17. cap. 20. de ciuitat Dei libro primo contra aduers. leg prophet ca. 18. lib. 3. de baptism ca. 19. S. Leo sermone 8. de passione auouch that this one sacrifice hath succeeded all other and fulfilled all other differences of Sacrifices c. Yea in S. Pauls epistle to the Church at Corinth the first and tenth chapter We maie obserue that our bread and chalice our table and altar the participation of our host and oblation be compared or resembled point by point in all effectes conditions and properties to the altars hostes sacrifices and immolatious of the Iewes and Gentiles Which the Apostle woulde not or coulde not haue done in this Sacrament of the altar rather than in other Sacraments or seruice of our Religion if it onelie had not beene a Sacrifice and the proper worship of God among the Christians as the other were among the Iewes and heathen And so doe all the fathers acknowledge calling it onelie and continuallie almost by such termes as they doe no other Sacrament or ceremonie of Christes Religion The Lamb of God laide vpon the table Concil Nicen. The vnbloodie seruice of the Sacrifice In Concil Ephesin epist. ad Nestor pag. 605. The sacrifice of sacrifices Dionys. Eccles. Hieronym cap. 3. The quickning holie sacrifice the vnbloodie host and victime Cyril Alex. in Concil Ephes. Anatâ— the propitiatorie sacrifice both for the liuing and the dead Tertul. de cor Milit. Chrys. ho. 41. in 1. Corinth ho. 3. ad Phil. Ho. 66. ad pop Antioch Cypr. epi. 66. decaena Do. nu 1. August Euch. 109. Quaest. 2. ad Dulcit to 4. Ser. 34. de verb. Apost The sacrifice of our mediator the sacrifice of our price the sacrifice of the newe Testament the sacrifice of the Church August li. 9. ca. 13. li. 3. de baptist ca. 19. The one only inconsumptible victime without which there is no Religion Cyprian de caen Do. nu 2. Chrysost. ho. 17. ad Hebr. The pure oblation the newe ofspring of the newe Law the vital and impolluted host the honoâ—râ—ble dreadful Sacrifice the Sacrifice of thankesgiuing or Eucharistical the Sacrifice of Melchisedec This is the Apostles and fathers doctrine God grant you may find mercy to see so euident and inuincible a trueth Theo. You be nowe where you would be and where the fathers seeme to fit your foote But if your sacrifice bee conuinced to bee nothing lesse than catholike or consequent to the Prophets Apostles or Fathers Doctrine what say you then to your vanitie in alleaging if not impietie in abusing so many Fathers and Scriptures to proppe vp your follies Phi. Bee not these places which we bring you for this matter vndeniable vnauoydable indefeatable vnanswerable Theo. In any case lay on loade of termes You haue made vs so many in your late Rhemish testameÌ„t that now you must not seeme to lack But what if all these places neede
peoples heartes and voyces Philand Those be your shyftes Theoph. Goe to you shifters is it not enough for you to beguile the simple with emptie soundes shewes and names but you will resist a manifest trueth when you are sure to haue it prooued to your faces Cyprian in his 63. epistle meddleth not with Malachies wordes but if you woulde in deede learne what hee thought or wrate of that prophesie and what hee counted to bee the Sacrifice that Malachie foretolde turne to his instructions giuen to Quirinus against the Iewest he first booke and 16. chapter where he proueth that the old sacrifice should bee abolished and a newe succeede and there you shal find him expound it to bee Sacrificium laudis iustitiae the Sacrifice of praise and righteousnes and that by no worse mans authoritie than Dauids Iustinus I grant alleadgeth the wordes and saith God in that speech doth witnes that all the sacrifices which Christ Iesus appointed to be done in his name at the Eucharist of bread and wine are acceptable to him But what Sacrifices they were which Christ deliuered and prescribed in the Eucharist for his to do the wordes of Iustinus that presently follow do perfectly open Preces quidem gratiarū actiones bonorum perfectas solas esse Deo gratas hostias ego quoque concedo Haec enim sola facienda acceperunt Christiani in aridi humidique sui cibi commemoratione in quo mortis quam per se perpessus◠est Deus Dei filius memoria re colitur That the prayers and thankes of the good are the only perfect sacrifices and pleasant to God I confesse For these onely sacrifices haue the christians receiued to be done in the celebration of that their Eucharistical food liquor in which the memory of the death of the son of God who himselfe was God is renewed You should haue spared the very quoting of this place by mine aduise for if all the Preachers in England would haue laide their heades together in wordes to crosse your actuall corporall sacryficing the flesh of Christ they could not haue done it in quicker and smarter speech Ireneus maketh euen as much for you as Iustinus did for he not onely subuerteth your reall sacrificing of Christ when hee teacheth that the church offereth the creatures of bread and wine in token of her thankefulnesse vnto God but the very wordes of Malachie he expoundeth by S. Iohns authority for the praiers of the Sainctes Benè ait in omni loco incensum offertur nomini meo sacrificium purum Incensa autem Iohan. in Apocalypsi orationes ait esse Sanctorum Et ideo nos quoque offerre vult munus ad altare frequenter sine intermissione Est ergo altare in coelis Illuc enim preces nostrae oblationes nostrae diriguntur Well saith God by Malachie In euery place incense is offered to my name and a pure sacrifice Now incense Iohn in his Apocalypse calleth the prayers of the Sainctes And therefore God will haue vs offer a gift at his altar cōtinually without intermission The altar is in heauen Thither are our praiers and oblations directed Phi. Yet S. Irenens applyeth the wordes of Malachie to the Eucharist Theo. He doth but that sacrifice he saith is the offering vnto God the first fruits of his creatures for a thankesgiuing and with that restriction hee limiteth the word offerimus which he often vseth Offerre igitur oportet Deo primitias eius creaturae Offerimus einon quasi indigenti sed gratias agentes donationi eius sanctificantes creaturam Wee must offer to God but the first fruites of his creatures Wee offer to him not that he wanteth but giuing him thankes for his bountifulnesse and sanctifieng the creature Here is a sacrifice of thanksgiuing for his mercies not Christ but the creatures of bread and wine offered vnto God with prayer and other christian duties which hee nameth as cleane thoughtes faith without hypocrisie firme hope feruent dilection these are the sacrifices of the new Testament of the Lords table not proper to the priest but common to the people nor finished with the hāds but perfourmed with the spirite of man which is the true seruice of the second couenant Phi. You turne and winde the Scriptures as you please but sure the Prophet Malachie directly toucheth our Sacrifice Theo. You dreame so earnestly of it that all the Fathers in Christes church can not pull you from it What Cyprian Iustine and Ireneus write of this prophesie you do or may vnderstand by that which is saide if the number bee too smal you may haue moe to assure you that the Prophet neuer thought of your reall and corporall sacrificing of Christes fleshe to God the Father by the Priestes fingers Tertullian alleadging the very wordes Et in omni loco offerentur munda Sacrificia nomini meo In euery place shall there bee brought cleane Sacrifices vnto my name addeth Indubitatè quod in omni terra exire habebat praedicatio Apostolorum Vndoubtedly the Prophet Malachie meaneth that the preaching of the Apostles was to bee spredde ouer all the earth Against Marcion hee sayeth Et in omni loco Sacrificium nomine meo offeretur sacrificium mundum scilicet simplex oratio de conscientia pura In euerie place shall there bee offered in my name a sacrifice and that a cleane sacrifice to witte sincere praier from a pure conscience So Eusebius Where Malachie doeth say that incense and sacrifice are offered to God in euerie place what else meaneth hee but that it is done in euery Countrie and in all Nations which in deede were to offer to the most high God the incense of prayer and sacrifice which is called cleane no longer by blood but by godly workes Nowe what those workes were Cyrill will teach you Wee vse sacrifices but of the spirite and minde For wee haue a precept that leauing the grosse seruice of the Iewes wee shoulde yeelde a subtile fine and spirituall sacrifice And therefore wee offer vnto God for a sweete smell all sortes of vertues faith hope charitie iustice continence obedience mildnesse perpetuall prayses and other such vertues So Hierom. Incense is offered to the name of the Lord in euerie place and a cleane sacrifice not in the oblations of the olde Testament but in the holynesse of Euangelicall puritie of which incense wee reade in other places as when Dauid sayeth Let my praier bee directed as incense in thy sight and the lifting vppe of mine handes as an Euening sacrifice So Augustine Heare yee Donatistes the Lorde saying thus by his Prophet In euerie place shall incense bee yeelded to my name and a pure sacrifice With this sacrifice of your brethren which God most respecteth you shew your selues by your cauilling to bee grieued and if at any time you heare the name of the Lord to bee praysed from East to West which
to say is hereticall And therefore they ioyne both in this that the bodie of Christ may not only be eaten of a Mouse but also it may be vomited vppe by the mouth and purged downe by the draught say Bonauenture what he will or can in detestation of their folke These be their words Igitur corpus Christi sanguis tam diu manet in ventre stomacho vel vomitu quocunque alibi quamdiu species manet Et si specieâ— incorruptae euomuâ—tur illa autem qâ—andoque non corrùpta emâ—ttuâ—tur vt in habentibus fluxum ibi est vere corpus Christi Therefore the bodie and bloud of Christ remaine in the bellie anâ— stomacke or in vomite and in whatsoeuer course of nature so long as the shewes of bread and wine remaine And if they be vomited or purged before they be altered as sometimes in those that are troubled with the fluxe euen there is the true bodie of Christ. O filthie mouthes and vncleane spirites What Capernite what heretike what Infidel was euer I say not so carnall and grosse but so barbarous and brutish Is this the reuerence you giue to the sacred and glorious flesh of Christ Is this the corporal presence that you striue for Shal Mice Dogges and Swine haue eternall life that you bring them to eate the fleshe and drinke the bloud of our Sauiour The rest of your sluttish diuinitie no religious hart can repeate no Christian eares can abide let your neerest frindes be iudges whether this kinde of eating doe not match not only the Capernites but also the Canibals This vile and wicked assertion you will beare men in hand you did euer detest and so think to discharge your selues but you cannot scape so The church of Rome whose factours and attournies you be must answere to God and the worlde for suffering admitting and strengthning this sacrilegious blasphemie For when these things were first broched what did she Did she controle the doers and condemne the filthines of their error Did she so much as note the men or mislike the matter No Philander she proposed the question in her sentences Quid igitur sumit mus vel quid manducat What then doth the mouse take or what doth he eate And with her colde and indifferent answer Deus nouit God knoweth she set the schoole men on work she laid vp the ashes of those mice next her altars for reliques she fauored aduanced and canonized the spredders of it Thomas of Aquin was her only Paramour Hugh of Cluince who commended a Priest for eating the sacrament which a leaper had cast vp Cum vilissimo sputo was Saincted of her she made Antonius no worse man than an Archbishoppe What Call you this the quenching or kindling the suppressing or increasing of heresies No maruaile if you recken Rebels for Martyrs your holy mother the Church of Rome hath the cunning to make saints of blasphemers Returne returne for shame to grauitie trueth and antiquitie Learne to distinguishe that which is seene in this Sacrament from that which is beleeued I meane the visible creature from the grace which is not visible HADST THOV BEENE saith Chrysostome WITHOVT A BODIE Christ WOVLD HAVE GEEVEN THEE HIS INCORPORALL GVIFTS NAKEDLY that is without any coniunction of corporall creatures BVT NOW BECAVSE THY SOVL IS COVPLED WITH A BODIE THEREFORE IN THINGS THAT BE SENSIBLE THINGS INTELLIGIBLE ARE DELIVERED THEE AS BREAD saith Cyril of this sacrament SERVETH FOR THE BODIE SO THE WORD SERVETH FOR THE SOVL. It is neither nouâ—ltie nor absurditie to say that the bread of the Lorde as touching the material substance may bee deuoured of beasts digested of men and will of it selfe in continuance mould and putrifie Such is the condition of all creatures that serue to nourish our bodies and this is a creature well knowen and familiar to our senses But the word of God which is added to the corporall elements the grace which is annexed to the visible signes and the flesh of Christ which quickneth the soul of man by faith these thinges I say be free from all violent and vndecenâ— abuses and iniuries For they be no corporall mortall nor earthlie creatures but spirituall eternall and heauenly blessings and therefore in no case subiect to the greedines of beasts vncleanes of men or weaknes of nature The element is one thing saith Ambrose the operation is an other thing That which is seene in all Sacraments is temporall that which is not seene is eternall If wee looke to the very visible thinges wherein Sacraments are ministred who is ignorant saith Austen that they be corruptible But if wee consider that which is wrought by them who doth not see that that cannot suffer any corruption Of the Lordes Supper Origen affirmeth that the bread as touching the matter or materiall partes thereof goeth into the bellie and forth by the draught but the praier and blessing which is added doeth lighten the soule according to the portion of faith The sacrament that is the sacred element is one thing saieth Rabanusâ— the power of the Sacrament is an other thing The Sacrament is receiued in at the mouth with the vertue of the Sacrament the inwarde man is filled the Sacrament is turned into the nourishment of the bodie by the vertue of the Sacrament wee attaine eternall life This doâ—trine your schoolemen either wilfullie reiected or foolishly peruerted to make Christ substantiallie present in your Masses and for that onely cause felâ— thâ—y to the locall shutting of him within the formes of bread and the corporall eating his flesh with their teeth Which grossenes once preuailing in your Church of Rome Thomas Alexander Antonius and the greatest Clarkes of your side were by the consequent of your reall presence forced to conâ—â—sse that the flâ—sh of Christ might be subiect to the teeth and iawes as well of beastes as of vnbeleeuers For wickednes is worse than sluttishnes and the bodies of sinnefull men God more detesteth than he doth the bowels of vnreasonable creatures Since then by the generall consent of your Church Christ doeth not refuse the bellies and intralles of faithlesse persons why say they should he not be verily contained in the capacities and inwardes of brute beastes if by mischaunce they deuoure the Sacrament This hold fast your gloze layeth hands on Si dicatur quodmus sumat corpus Christi non est magnum inconueniâ—ns cum homines sceleratissimi illud sumant If it be said that a mouse taketh the bodie of Christ it is no great inconuenience seeing most wicked men doe receiue the same and this Bonauenture setteth downe for the chiefest motiue to that vile assertion Phi. To tel you truth I like not that position Theo. So long as you defend Christs humane substance to be locally present in your host you cannot for your hart auoide it but either by mocking your sâ—lues and deluding your senses or
tēporall 249 The Prince charged to plant the faith and rule the church 250 The King of Englands charge 250 The Prince charged with Godlinesse 251 Their power is equall with their charge 252 The sword prohibited vnto Bishops 253 Only princes beare the sworde 254 The words of the oth 254 Supreme concluded out of saint Paul 255 The Apostles subiect vnto Princes 255 Suffering is a sign of subiection 256. The direction of the sword 257 Who shall direct the sword 257 No man Iudge of trueth 258 Discerners of trueth 259 The people are charged to discern the truth 260 The people must discerne teachers and try spirits 261 We be not bound to the Bishops pleasure 262 Wherein Bishops are superiour to Princes 263 The function not the person 264 The priests person subiect to the Prince 264 The right direction vnto trueth 265. The best direction for Princes 266. Who shall direct Princes 267. Successiō is no sure directiō 268 Bishops may erre 26◠Councels may erre 270 276 Number no warrant for trueth 270 Councels haue erred 272 Consent without staggering due only to the Scriptures 276 The Pope may erre 277.304.311 Christ praied for Peter 278 Peter failed in faith 279 Christ praied for all 280 No one set ouer the Church 281 The Romane Church may faile in faith 283 Cyprians place discussed 283 The misconstering of Non potest 284 Cyprians opinion of the Romanes 286 S. Pauls warning to them 286 S. Ierome misconstered 287 The Romanes may erre 288 Moses chaire might erre 289 The high Priests did erre 290 Christs promise to his Church 291 The godly may erre 292 S. Iohns words abused 293 The whole Church erreth not 294. The Iesuites condemned for flatterers by their owne fellowes 294 What Popes haue erred 296 Liberius an heretike 297 Honorius an heretike 299 Vigilius an heretike 301 Anastasius an heretike 302 Shiftes to saue the Popes from erring 303 Caiphas free from error 305 Caiphas as free from error as the Pope 305 The Popes tribunall hath erred 306 Vaine mockeries of the Iesuites to saue the Popes error 309 Their owne Church confesseth the Pope may erre 310 The iudge of faith must not erre 312 The contents of the third part The Pope hath no power to depriue the Prince 314 What God hath allowed to Princes the Pope cannot take from them 317 Princes not depriuable by the Pope 318 The Prophets deposed no Princes 319 Saul reiected by God not deposed by Samuell 320 Saul depriued of the succession not of the possession of the Crowne 321 Dauid annointed to succeed 325 Ieroboam plagued not deposed 325 Prophets may threaten 326 Vzziah stricken with the leprosie not assaulted with violence 327 Lepers seuered from mens cōpany but not disherited 328 Vzziahs pride 329 Athalia slaine 329. Achab reprooued not deposed 330. Elias induced the King and the people to kill Baals prophets 331 Elias no executioner 332 Fier frō heauen at Elias word 332. Iehu willed by God to take the sworde 333 Elizeus deposed no King 333 No Scripture confirmeth the deposition of princes 334 Kinges holde their dignities of God not of priests 335 The priest no Iudge of the princes crowne 336 The priest to direct the Iudge to decide 338 Princes not subiect to priestes 339. Princes depriued priests 340 Princes brake couenaunts with God and yet were not deposed 341 No prince deposed in the olde testament 341 Christ is King of Kinges but not the pope 342 Christ haue many prerogatiues which the pope may not haue 343 Binding of sinnes not of Scepters 344 Depriuing is not feeding 345 Temporall reuenge not lawfull for priests 445 Heretikes must not be saluted yet princes must be obeyed 346. Heretiks must haue their du 347 Society not duty prohibited 348 Wee must shunne the wicked but not disobeie the magistrate 348 Excommunication inferreth no deposition 350 The Iesuites claime temporall and externall power for the pope 350.351 God not Paul stroke Elima◠blinde 352 What is ment in S. Paul by deliuering vnto Sathan 353 The Apostles laid violēt hands on no man 354 The goods and bodies of men are Cesars right 355 Priests no Iudges of temporall thinges but makers of peace betweene brethren 357 The temporall and spiritual distinct regiments 358 The Ciuill state directed not punished by the spiritual 359 Princes committed to the preachers charge not subiected to the popes court 360 Princes may be put in mind of their duties 361 Nazianzene subiect to the prince 361 Howe the preacher correcteth 362 Howe manie degrees the pope will be aboue the prince 363 If he heare not the Church let him be to thee as an Ethnick 364 Ethnicks must not be deposed 364 The Church cannot depose the prince 365 The Church submitted herselfe to Princes 366 The Church hath no commissiō to depose Princes 367 The church with thē is the Pope 367 Neuer king obayed the Popes Censure 368 The Church neuer decreed that Popes should depose Princes 368 Impertinent examples 369 Excommunication is not deposition 370 The fact of Babylas 371 Babylas died vnder Decius 371 The Prince penitent for his sins 372 S. Ambrose and Theodosius 373 Anastasius excommunicatiō vncertaine 374 Michaels excommunication vnproued 374 Lotharius mistaken 375 Of seuen examples but one proued 375 S. Austens opinion of such excommunications 376 The end of excommunication ceaseth in Princes 376 The Church praied for tyrants 377 The Church praied for the welfare of hereticall Princes 378 The Church praied for Constantius 378 A lustie leape from the keyes to the sword 379 Rebellion against Princes defended to be iust and honourable warres 380 Graund theeues murtherers 381 The Popes warrant to rebels 381 The Pope cānot warrant Rebellion 382 Scriptures abused to serue Rebellion 383 Asa remoued his mother from her dignitie 383 The Iudiciall part of Moses Law is ceased 384 The execution of Moses Law cōmitted to none but to the magistrate 384 No reuenger but the Magistrate 384 Phinees fact had Moses warrant 385 Moses a magistrate and no priest after Aarons order 386 Moses a Leuite but no priest 387 Moses a Prophet no sacrificing Priest 388 And so was Samuel 389 Many offred that wer no priests 389 Sauls sin was infidelitie 389 The Priest did not appoint the wars 390 The warres of Abiah 391 Edome Libnah reuolting 391. Ten tribes might fight with two 392 The Church of Christ neuer alowed rebellion 392 S. Basil alowed not the people to rebel for his defence 393 S. Ambrose alowed no tumult at Millan in fauour of him 394. Athanasius did not stirre Constance against Constantius 396 Athanasius neuer spake euill of Constantius 396 Athanasius neuer disobaied Cōstantius 397 Athanasius would not haue the people rebel for his cause 398 The tumult at Alexandria for Peter against Lucius 399 Atticus harboured strangers but not armed subiects against their Princes 400 The Persian war was lawful 400 What Leo requested of the Emperour 401 The Christians were subiect to Iulian though he were an
The faith of our fathers is not alwaies trueth 537 God forbiddeth vs to follow the steppes of our fathers 538 The godly confessed their fathers did erre 539 All humane lawes barres giue place to God 540 The prince might make lawes for trueth maugre the Pope 541 Princes haue setled religion without Councels 542 Christian religion receiued vpon the direction of a lay man 543 Trueth authorised the Apostles against Priests Princes 544 Railing on Princes is a capitall crime 545 The contents of the fourth part No point of Poperie Catholike 546. What is truely CATHOLIKE 547 The worshipping of Images is not Catholike 547 The west Church against the worshipping of Images 548 Corruption to help the credite of the second Nicen councell 549 The worshipping of Images detested in the Church of Christ as Heresie 550 The â—mage of God made with hands may not be worshipped 552 The Iewes Gentiles did erect their Images vnto God 553 The heathen adored their stocks as the Images of God 554 The Image of man set vp vnto God is an Idoll 556 The wodden Image of Christ may not be worshipped 557 The honour done to a wodden Image is not done to Christ. 559 Adoration of Images no Apostolick tradition 562 S. Basill forged to make for adoration of Images 563 The shamefull forgeries and falsities of the second Nicene councell 564 Both Scriptures and fathers wickedly abused by the second Nicene Councâ—l 565 The second Nicene Councel conuincing it selfe of forgerie 566 What an Idole is 567 A wrong seruice of God is Idolatrie 568 The Church of Rome giueth diuine honour vnto Images 569 Christs honour may not be giuen to Images 570 The hauing of Images is not Catholike 572 Athanasius palpablie forged in the second Nicene Councell 574 The Church next to the Apostles reiected Images 574 Images came first from Heathens vnto Christians 575 Images reiected by godly Bishops 576. No corporall submission may be giuen to Images 577 The Nicene Bishops play the sophists in decreeing adoration vnto Images 577 The wodden crosse of Christ may not be adored 578 Not one word in scripture for adoration of Images 580 No point of faith may be built on traditions 581 No point of faith beleeued without Scripture 582 Baptizing of Infants is a consequent of the Scriptures 583 It may be a tradition yet grounded on the Scriptures 584 Baptisme of InfaÌ„ts prooued needfull by the Scriptures 585 Rebaptization repugnant to the Scriptures by S. Augustines iudgement 588 The perpetuall virginitie of Marie the Mother of Christ. 589 The Godhead of the holy ghost expressed in the Scriptures 590 His proceeding from the father and the sonne confirmed by the Scriptures 592 Expresse scripture is the sense and not the syllables 593 Fathers wrested to speake against the scriptures 594 The Popish faith is their owne traditioÌ„ against the scriptures 597 Their adoration of images is a late and wicked inuenâ—ion of their schooles 598 Images adored in the Church of Rome with diuine honour 600 Images reiected by Catholike Bishops 601 S. Austen condemneth Images as vnprofitable signes 602 Custome without trueth is but the antiquitie of error 603 Praier in an vnknowen toung prohibited by Saint Paul in Gods name 604 S. Paul speaketh of vnknoweÌ„ touÌ„gs 606 An vnknowen toung cannot edifie 607 Diuine seruice in a knowen toung cannot choose but edifie 608 S. Paul speaketh of three learned toungs as wel as of others 610 S. Paul speaketh of the Hebrew Greeke and Latine as well as of other tongues 611 S. Pauls wordes comprise both Church seruice sermons 612 Saint Paul 1. Cor. 14. speaketh of Church seruice 613 The Church vnder the Apostles had no set order of diuine seruice 614 The Church vnder the Apostles did sing blesse and pray by the gyft of the spirite 615 The Apostle had no certaine praiers or seruice 616 The Iesuits halting reasons that S. Paul did not speak of the church Seruice 616 S. Paul to the Corinthians speaketh of Church seruice 620 No man may say AMEN to that he vnderstandeth not 624 Necessary to vnderstand our praiers 625 The primatiue Church had neuer her praiers and seruice in an vnknowen tongue 627 The latine seruice was vnderstood in the Countries where it was 629 Alleluia is vsed in all tongues aswell barbarous as others 630 The Britans had no latine seruice 632 Alleluia soung at the plough 632 The Iesuits manner of alleaging impertiment authorities 633 Bede doth not say that the people of this Realme had the latine seruice in his time 634 The prayers of the primatiue Church were common to all the people 636 The Masse book proueth that the people should vnderstand the Priest 639 The Priest needeth no speach in his praiers but to edifie the hearers 640 Praier is as acceptable to God in a barbarous as in a learned touÌ„g 642 Seruice in an vnknowen tongue is no custome of the vniuersall Church 643 The primatiue church had her seruice in such tongues as the people vnderstood 644 The primatiue church allowed praiers in barbarous tounges Whether side commeth nearest to christs institution 650 S. Paul by the Lords supper meaneth the sacrament 651 The name Masse whence it first came 655 We doe not swarue from christes institution 657 Christ did blesse with the mouth and not with the finger 658 Blessing in the scriptures applied to diuerse and sundrie thinges 659 To doe any thing vpon or ouer the bread is not needefull 660 The rehearsall of christs wordes maketh a sacrament 661 We shew our purpose at the Lords table by our words and deedes 662 The worde beleeued maketh the Sacrament 664 Vnlâ—uened bread is not of the substance of the Sacrament 664 Water is no part of Christs institution 663. 670 Water is not necessarie in the Lordes cup euen by the confession of their own schooles 668 No water mingled whiles the Apostles liued 672 The Masse an open profanation of Christs institution 673 Priuate Masse euerieth all that christ did or said at his last Supper 674 Christ did not sacrifice himselfe at his last supper 676 The Primatiue church had no priuate Masse 678 The Lords supper ought to be coÌ„mon 679 The Lords cup was deliuered to the people as well as the bread 679 Christs precept for the cup extendeth as well to the people as to the Priest 680 In the primatiue church the lords cup was common to all 682 The causes for which the church of Rome changed christs institution 683 The auncient church of Rome very vehement against half communions 684 Forbearing the Lords cuppe condemned in laymen as sacrilege 685 Sacrilege in the Priest can be no religion in the people 686 The Iesuits proofes for their sacrifice 687 How the fathers call the Lordes supper a sacrifice 688 Their own Masse booke contradicteth their sacrifice 690 The Lords death is the sacrfice of the Lords supper 691 A memoriall of christs passion is our daily sacrifice 692 The elder sort of Schoolemen knew not their
con 1. * The Pope maketh a supplication to the Prince for a law to punish ambition in getting the Popedom Leo epist. 9. The Pope maketh supplication to the Prince for a Councell missed his sute Leo. Epist. 12. Idem Epist. 13. Idem Epist. 17. Idem Epist. 24. The Pope with sighes teares sueth for a generall Councell to the Prince was repelled Leo Epist. 26. The Pope desireth a gentle woman to further his sute to the Prince Idem Epist. 23. The Pope praieth others to helpe him with putting vp a supplication to the Prince for a Councell If the Bishop of Rome might then haue commaÌ„ded why did he intreate with teares yet misse his purpose Epist. 43. The Pope a fresh suter to the next Emperour Idem Epist. 50. Epist. 43. The Pope beseecheth the Prince by his royall decree to voide the Councell of Ephesus and to commaund the Councell of Chalcedon not to depart from the Nicene faith Concil Chalced. actio 1. Leo â—pist 59. The Pope must obey the Princes will in subscribing to the decrees of the Councell Nouell constit 123. IustiniaÌ„ commaundeth the Patriarkes namely the Bishoppe of Rome for Ecclesiasticall affaires * Ibidem Ibidem The Prince inflicteth depriuation for the breach of his Ecclesiasticall lawes Gregories submission to Mauritius in causes Ecclesiasticall Greg. Epi. lib. 2. cap. 100. Ecclesiasticall Lawes made by the Prince without the Popes knowledge against his liking How far was this man from deposing Princes The Pope subiect to the Princes commaundement sendeth the princes precept throughout his prouince The Pope of duetie yeeldeth obedieÌ„ce to his Prince The Pope the Princes seruaÌ„t by publike right He confesseth the Prince to be Lord ouer all Idem Epist. lib. 4. cap. 74. The Prince commaunded the Bishop of Rome to be at peace with the Bishop of Constantinople Idem Epist. lib. 4. cap. 76. The Pope redy to obey the Princes commaundement Idem Epist. lib. 4. cap. 78. The Pope submitting himselfe to the Princes pleasure in causes ecclesiasticall The Pope ouerruled in his consistorie with the princes precept Sextae Synod act 4. The Popes obedience to the Emperour was no curtesie but duetie Sext. Synod act 4. Agathonis Epist. 2. All the Bishops of the North and West partes seruants to the Emperour as well as they of the East Distinct. 10. ca. de capitulis The Pope professeth 850. yeares after Christ that he will inuiolably keepe the Princes ecclesiastical chapters lawes How farre the Pope was theÌ„ from the superioritie which he nowe claimeth ouer Princes * August contra Cresconium lib. 3. cap. 51. The Iesuites cauils against the Princes soueraigntie Ieremies wordes conclude nothing for the Pope Ieremie appointed a Prophet ouer nations Ierem. 1. Ierem. 1. Theodor. in 1. cap. Ierem. Bernard considerat lib. 2. Lyra in 1. cap. Ierem. Lyra in 1. cap. Ierem. Hieron in 1. ca. Ierem. Grego Pastoral part 3. admonitio 35. Hieron in 1. cap. Ierem. 1. Tim. 6. Reuel 19. Dan. 4. Reuel 17. Esai 6. Esaie maketh not the prince subiect to the Pope Hieron in 60. cap. Esai Esai 60. Esai 49. Esai 60. Hieron in Esai cap. 60. Euerie member of Christs church hath as good interest in Esaies wordes as the Pope Princes shall serue thee that is euerie part of thee or the noblest part of thee neither of which maketh for the Pope Princes may serue none but Christ. Psalm 2. Matth. 4. Philip. 2. Heb. 1. Colos. 1. An allegoricall text yeeldeth no literall conclusioÌ„ Esai 60. Esai 60. What it is for Princes to serue and submit themselues to the church Aug. contr lit Petilian lib. 2. cap. 92. Idem contr 2. Gauden Epist. lib. 2. cap. 26. Heb. 13. Obey your rulers as well all as one The Iesuites windlace to bring the Prince in subiection to the Pope Heb. 13. Heb. 13. The words of S. Paul obey your rulers make nothing for the Pope Heb. 13. 2. Cor. 4. 2. Corin. 1. Mark 10. Act. 20. Bishops are set in the Church by the holy ghost to feede not to rule Regère applied to Bishops is to rule ang gouerne with aduise couÌ„cell not with power and dominion S. Pauls words haue no relation to the Popes person nor to that kinde of rule which he claimeth They pretend the Church when they meane the Pope Esai 60. Ibidem The cunning of their Apologie Apolog. cap. 4. The Prince is supreme though the Church bee superiour Howe the Church is superiour to the Prince The Saintes in heauen bee part of the church Ephe. 2. Galat. 4. Aug. de ciuit Dei lib. 10. cap. 7. Aug. in Psalm 149. Idem de ciuit Dei lib. 20. cap. 9. 1. Cor. 10. In the name of the Church are many things contained Ambros. de incarnat Domin sacra cap. 5. August quaest super Leuit. lib. 3. cap. 57. Idem de catechizan rudibus cap. 3. Persons are not the church without other things annexed to them * Galat. 3. Hebre 13. Rom. 8. Rom. 8. Ambro. Epist. lib. 5. oratio contra Auxentium August epist. 157. The Church is sometimes taken for the place Idem quaest sup Leuitâ— â—â— 3 cap 57. Idem in psal 137. Sometimes for the persoÌ„s Idem in Euchivid Cap. 56. The Church of all the chosen men and Angels Ibidem August de Catechiz vudibus Cap. 3. Idem in Psal. 62. The Church is the number of the faithful that euer were aâ—e or shal be * Idem in Psal. 90. concio 2. The church is the number of particular men in seueral times and places August de vnitate eccles cap. 11. Idem in Psal. 64 121. Rom. 14. Mat. 21. 1. Tim. 3. August de verbis Apostoli sermo 22. That which entereth the definition must nedes be coÌ„tained in the appellation of the Church August epist. 38. Idem de baptis lib. 1. cap. 10. Idem in Psal. 57. 30. Idem epist. 203. Ambros. in psal 118. sermo 15. Idem in psal 36. 1. Tim. 3. Ambros. oratio contra Auxent The Prince not aboue the Church though superiour to al persons in the Church Mat. 22. What things Princes haue neither right to coÌ„maund nor power to rule See fol. 147. Mat. 20. Princes are aboue al persons but not aboue the Church Ergo the Church is taken for more than for persons Ambros. lib. 5. Cap. 33. Ambros. de obitu Theodosij Apolog. Cap. 4. sect 30. Epist. 33. ad Sororem Ibidem The Iesuits nippe saint Ambroses wordes Ambros. lib. 1. epist 32. We make no Prince iudge of faith Wherin Saint Ambrose withstood Valentinian The reasons why S. Ambr. refused Valentinians iudgement as neither fit nor indifferent Ambros. lib. 5. orat contra Auxentium Idem lib. 5. epist. 32. Ibidem Ambros. lib. 5. epist. 33. Ambrose would not yeeld his consent to let the Arrians haue his Church Idem orat contra Auxent Ibidem IbideÌ„ epist. 32. Ibidem orat contra Auxent Ambrose resisted not the Prince but denied his consent to part
honor that they make their God To giue Christs honor to an Image in respect of the Originall is a seelie shift To adore the Image in respect of the Originall is in summe the very same answere that al the Pagans gaue when they were reproued for their Idolatrie Adoration of Images neuer hard of in the church before the 2. Nicen Councell which was 790. yeres after Christ. Painting of stories in the Church is a matter somwhat ancient but yet not catholike These fathers were Catholike yet repelled painting in Churches Nicenae Synodi 2. actio 6. The 2. Councell of Nice deluded the fathers that were alleaged against them Epiphanius pretended to be forged but without all cause Ibidem Eusebius condemned by them for an heretike but falsely Nicenae Synodi 2. act 6. Ibidem Ibidem Chrysost. Amphilochius Asterius plainly shifted off by the Councel of Nice Contra Celsum lib. 7. Bowing to Images condemned * August de vera Religio cap. 55. Hieron in 6. cap. Daniel Gerson in compendio Theolog. de 10. praeceptis Some of their owne church haue condemned bowing to Images as contrarie to the lawe of God Saint August abused to make for Images August de doctrin Christ. lib. 3. cap. 9. Things ordained by God must haue their reuerence though they be but creatures marie adoration they must not haue * August lib. eodem cap. 9. de doctina christian lib. 3. c. 5. * cap. 8. Images vnprofitable signes and not ordeined of God * cap. 7. * cap. 8. The lawe of god condemneth bowing vnto Images which precept the Church must obey without all shifts or other respects Praying in a straunge tongue Custome without truth is the rottennes of errour * Cypr. ad Pompei contra epistâ— Stephan * Tertull. de virgin veland * Ex sentent Concil Carthag inter â—pâ—â—a Cyprian * August debap contra Donat. lib. 3. cap. 6. Iohn 14. Ephes. 1. The Rhemish Test. vpon the 1. Cor. 14. 1. Cor. 14. The place of S. Paul to the Corinthians against praying in a strange tongue The Iesuites labour toothe and nayle to shift off this place * This is the summe of all their declaration vpon the 1. Cor. 14. in their Remish Testament The two vertues of their Rhemish annotations The two vertues of their Rhemish annotations The words strange or vnknowne put into the text in an other print for the opening of Sainct Pauls minde Sainct Paules words are most absurd if they be vnderstood of knowne toungsâ— The text cannot stand except you adde the worde vnknowne to it Sainct Paul so expoundeth himself * Vers. 9. * 11. * 16. An other tongue is a strange toung which is all one with an vnknowne tongue Chrysost. in 1. Corinth 14. The fathers interpreting Sainct Paul adde those wordes which we doe * Ibidem * Ibidem Ambros. in 1. Corinth 14. * Ibidem * Ibidem Ibidem Haymo in 1. Cor. 14. * Ibidem August de Genes ad literam lib. 12. cap. 8. Mark what a tongue is by Saint Austens interpretation The Rhemish Test. 1. Corinth 14. He that knoweth not the sense is not edified but he that knoweth not one worde as in a strange tongue is a thousand tymes lâ—sse edified Speake to children in a strange tongue and they will either fly from you for feare or laugh you to skorne Hebrew doth edify no more than Irish if a man vnderstand neither De Gen. ad litâ— lib. 12. cap. 8. Chrysost. in 1. Cor. 14. Ambros. in 1. Cor. 14. Nothing doth edifie except it bee vnderstood The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. A wretched cauill of the Iesuits because the people vnderstand not euerie mysterie of the Psalmâ—â— or lessons to say they were as good not vnderstaÌ„d a word 2. Peter 3. If the Psalmes and lessons do not edifie the worde of god doth not edifie * Rom. 15. * 2 Timoth. 3. The rest of our prayers are so plaine that no man can pretend lack of vnderstanding them except he be a naturall They be mad Christians and of your making that vnderstand not these things This is a wise iest of the Iesuits because the people vnderstande Compare this similitude with the Iesuits obiection and tell me what they differ Yf seruice in â— known toung do not â—difie what doth seruice in an vnknowne The Iesuits waie to edifie is to let the people not vnderstand a word of their praiers Euerie toung barbarous to him that vnderstandeth it not * 1 Corinth 14. The Rhemish Testament 1 Corinth 14. Act. 2. The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. Barbarous that is which is not vnderstood what tongue soeuer it be 1. Cor. 14. * Hieron in 1. Cor. 14. * Chrysost. in 1. cor 14. hom 35. * Ibidem The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. Hebrew Greeke and Latine were not vnderstoode of the ciuil people in euery great Citie The Gretians accounteth the Latine tongue to be barbarous in respect of then own Plautus in prolog Asinariae Strabo Geographiae lib. 1. Rom. 1. We despise not these tongues as barbarous in themselues but shew what Saint Paul meaneth by this word Tristium lib. 5. elegia 11. * And you shall neuer proue he spake not of them in the meane time the Apostles words he indiffereÌ„tly for all tongues In the world and none of them be generall speaches extending to all the toungs that are * Chrysost. in 1. Corinth 14. * In all toungs he that is not vnderstood is barbarous to the hearer Chrysost. Ibidem Chrysostom exemplifieth Sainct Paules woords twise together by the latine tongue Though wee praie in latine or what toung whatsoeuer Ambros. in 1. Corinth 14. * Ibidem By Saint Ambrose iudgement the Apostles spake principally of those that vsed the hebrew toung in their Sermons and praiers when the people vnderstood â—hem not Haymo in 1. Corinth 14. Haymo Ibidem The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. That he speaketh not of Church seruice is proued by inuiâ—cible arguments Sainct Paule by preaching doth not exclude praying but seuerally mentioneth them both The Church in her diuine seruice must haue both preaching and praying Roma 10 The worde engendreth faith and faith produceth praier Act 2. * These three were the publike exercises of Christes Church vnder the Apostles If the Church seruice consisted of these three then were they all three parts of the church seruice The Church in the Apostles time had no set order of publike praier as the Iesuites dreame In the primatiue Church the pastours and ministers praied and gaue thanks at the spirit directed their hearts lips * God regardeth not these solemnities of the Iesuits which they suppose to be the highest points of godlines All things were doone in the first Church by the miraculous working of the holy Ghost 1. Corinth 12. The gifts of gods spirit at the first erection of the Church 1. Corinth 14. With the spirit is with the miraculous gift of the spirit The presence and consent of the people
maketh the praier publike Howe shall the simple man say Amen that is any simple man * 1. Corinth 14. Rom. 4. * Deutero 27. * Galat. 3. Chrysost. in 1. Corinth 14. By the common or vulgare person Sainct Paule meaneth the people The forme of the Lords institution was certaine but the praiers made and thanks giuen at the Lords table were left to the discretion of the minister Masse forged in the Apostles names Iacobi Missa Iacobi Missa * Constitut. Apost lib. 8. a cap. 15. ad cap. 24. * vide Constitut. Apost lib. 6. cap. 14. lib. 8. cap. 15 Clemens booke of Apostolike constitutions neuer receiued in the Church * Grego lib. 7. epi. 63. * Polidor de inuent rerum lib. 5. cap. 10. * Polidor de inuent rerum lib. 5. cap. 10. * Gregorij responsio ad 3. interrogat Augustini Gregor lib. 7. epist. 63. No praiers vsed by the Apostles at the Lords table but only the Lords praier * In 1. Cor. 14. Tertul. in apologet To pray by hart dured a while amongst the Christians The Iesuits will haue the ordering of S. Pauls words whether he will or no. If Sainct Paule in this place did not speake of the Church seruice howe can the Iesuites proue the Corinthians had their seruice at this tyme in Greeke The Iesuites thwarted with their owne principles Except they take hold of Sainct Paules reasons here vsed in this chapter they shall neuer proue the seruice at Corinth in Saint Paules time was in Greeke It is true they had their seruice in greek but the â—esuits cannot proue it but by ouerthrowing their owne conclusion which they woulde infer and so their anâ—cedent choketh their consequent Their antecedent being granted their coÌ„sequeÌ„t doth not followe A wise reason because Saint Paul had set an order to haue their seruice in the tongue which they knewe therefore some might not inuert that order This disorder might come either by straungers or by such as were fastned to their cures Yet was it some cunning to set a good face on the matter The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. Neither antecedent nor consequent true Ambros. in 1. Corinth 14. The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. And why might not euerie pastour and minister haue his Psalmes his thankes giuing as wel in praying as in preaching The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. Why maie not doctrine praier and the Lordes supper follow ech other in one continual action though they be things different in themselues * Cor. 14. All must be done to edification eâ—go Church seruice The Rhemish Testament 1 Corinth 14. Sainct Paule in this chapter speaketh both of the sermons where Infidels might be and of the praiers and blessings where they might not be The Iesuits inuincible arguments are grounded vpon nothing but their own false surmises The loosnes of their last argument One part of the churches exercise doth not exclude but rather employ the other Church praier is Church seruice and that Saint Paul speaketh of Saint Paul speaketh of al the words that were to be vsed in the Church either at the Lords table or otherwise but not of the actions because they are not performed with the tongue Diuine seruice is pâ—operly that which is done with the mouth and not hâ—nds or gestures Wordes in the Lords supper as essential as elements or actions and those the people must vnderstand Al things must come to edification and therfore Church seruice The Rhemish Tâ—st â— Cor. 14. O miserable vnderstanding The Iesuites as men in a maze defend sometimes that the people neede not vnderstand their praiers sometimes that they doe vnderstand them though they can neither spel nor speake one word of Latine 1. Cor. 14. Nothing so absurd which the Iesuites will not defend A new kinde of Grammar for the simple to vnderstand the latin touÌ„g in one halfe houre * This is perfect ware A noble kind of vnderstanding how vnwise was Sainct Paule not to foresee this method to edifie with all Is this all the vnderstanding that priest or clark for the most part had 1. Corinth 14. 1. Corinth 14. Amen to the sauncebâ—l is euen as good as to that they vnderstand not The heart must vnderstand and consent before the lips saie Amen A position of the Iesuits which I think the Turkâ— theÌ„ selues would be ashamed to defend The heart doth not pray without vnderstanding 1. Cor. 14. Ephes. 5. Aug. in Psal. 99. * To great purpose the Iesuits say Aug. in Psal. 18. exposis 1. * And therefore dutie The Iesuits praier is like the chatteâ—ing of birdâ— in S Austenâ— iudgement Chrysoâ—t in 1. Corinth 14 * Is that necessarie or no Ambros. in 1. Corinth 14. * Ought and must do not set vs at libertie Cassiodor in Psal. 46. Concil Aquisgranens sub Ludouico pio cap. 123. * Ibide ca. 133. If they ought theÌ„ had they need so to doe The Rhemish Testament 1 Corinth 14. The Iesuits ouerthrow their own positions The people barred by the Iesuits from that they know from the means to 〈…〉 Were they not better let the fault be in others and not in themselues as now it is The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. How doe our mouths offer our hearts to God when we vnderstand not what we say Praiers are very needful instructions especially for the simple that cannot direct themselues in making their praiers to God * Rom. 15. Do not the Fathers often draw their arguments to perswade the people from the very praiers of the Church See S. Aug. ad Bonifac li. 4. ca. 9. They be no prayers when the tongue speaketh with out the hart and the voice of the hart is vnderstanding * Mat. 25. Mark 7. Psal. 31. * Aug. in Psal. 18. Where vnderstanding wanteth maÌ„ differeth not from a beast The Rhemish Testament 1. Corinth 14. It skilleth not in what toung the seruice of the Church was so the people vnderstood it The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. Gregor moral lib. 27. cap. 6. EleueÌ„ fathers abused by the Iesuits at one clappe Nine of those fathers speake of such countriâ—s as vnderstoode the latine tongue and the other two speake not one word of the latine seruice The latine toÌ„gue was vnderstood in Africa where Cyprian and Augustine preached August cofess lib. 1. cap. 14. Aug. Retract lib. 1. cap. 20. The rudest among the people in Africa vnderstood the Latine tongue August de verbis Apost sermo 26. The Iesuits heap vp fathers in their Rhemish Testament to no purpose but only to amaze the simple * Linguae meae hominibus None of these Fathers which they alleage speak of all the west Countries or Churches * Greg. moral in Iob lib. 27. cap. 6. * Hieron to 1. epist. 58. Alleluia is no proofe for the Latin seruice Alleluia is a better argument for the Hebrew than for the Latine seruice * Epist. 178. August epist. 178. The Barbarians in their tongues vsed Alleluia as wel as the
Romanes or Grecians * Why these two words were not traÌ„slated into any tongue See Hieron Maâ—cel epist. 137. Alleluia vsed in this land by the Saxons that could no Latine Grego moral in Iob lib. 27. cap. 8. The Britans that could speake no Latine sung the praises of god in what touÌ„g then if not in their own Hieron tom 1. epist. 58. Hierom misconstered by the Iesuites Hieron in 1. Epist. 17 ad Marcel Hierom speaketh of the plough men in Bethleem where Christ was borne It is easie to alleage nine skore fathers in any matter to no purpose God grant it be but ignorance in the Iesuits to cite fathers in this sort The Rhemish Testament 1 Corinth 14. The Latine tongue was common not to all but to such as could meditate the Scriptures in this Lande Beda Histor. Angl. li. 1. ca. 1. Meditation of Scriptures doth not signifie the praiers of the Church If they searched the trueth with fiue tongues then did they read or heare the scriptures in four toungs besides the Latine The Latine tongue was common to those that were learned in those foure Nations Let them take Bede how they wil he maketh nothing for their Latine seruice in the words which they bring The Italian Monks which vnderstood not the SaxoÌ„ toung might haue the Latine seruice in their Abbey but that the people had it in their parish Churches caÌ„not be proued by any place of Bede Hauing Saint Pauls Rule that the people should vnderstand the praiers that are made in the church we neede not search in what tongue eche Nation had their seruicâ— These shifs of the Iesuits being refelled Saint Pauls text is clear for vs. The seruice of the primatiue Church manifestly confirmeth our construction of Saint Paul What order the Apostles tooke for Church seruice as the bookes which they most esteeme doe testifie Constit. Apost lib. 8. cap. 16. The Church seruice diuided between the bishop the whole congregatioÌ„ * Cap. 18. * Cap. 20. The people could not make these answers except they vnderstood the tongue that the Bishop spake in The liturgies of Iames Basil and Chrysostome prescribe like aunswers for the people in the praiers of the Church That which we alleadge out of these liturgies hath the true and vndoubted testimoâ—ies of the Fathers Chrysost. in 2. Cor. in hâ—m 18. Marke the forme of publike praier in Chrysostomâ— time * Can they haue plainer words Basil. hexam homil 4. Men weomeÌ„ children singing and praying in the Church seruice Iustin. Martyr Apol. pro Christianis 2. * Can they haue plaineâ— words Basil. hexam homil 4. Men weomeÌ„ children singing and praying in the Church seruice Iustin. Martyr Apol. pro Christianis 2. * Ibidem * Aug. in Psal. 54. * Ambros. hexam lib. 3. cap. 5. * Leo. sermo 3. de ieiunio 7. mensis The publike praier of the whole people more auaileable with God than the praier of the priesâ— alone * Tertul. in Apologet. * Quasi manu facta Isidor de eccle officiis lib. 1. ca. 10. de lection That al shuldâ— pray sing in the church is a dutie and therefore a necessitie Legum Francie lib. 1. cap. 66. De eccles diuer capitulis Const. 123. * Lyra saith if the people vnderstaÌ„d the priestes praier benediction they be bâ—tâ—er affected to god ward and answere Amen with more deuotioÌ„ 1 Corinth 14 Iustinian applieth S. pauls place to proue that the people should bee edified stirred by the priests words to coÌ„fesse with their mouthes the praise of God in his church The pâ—iaers speaches of their Masse booke at this day proue the people should vnderstand answere the Priest in the chiefest parts of their Church seruice He that speaketh to men that which they cannot vnderstand mocketh and deludeth theÌ„ August de Doct. christia li. 4. cap. 10. 1. Corin. 14. * Ordinarium Missae secuÌ„dum vsum Sarum * Ideo precorvos fratres orate pro me * Orate fratres sorores pro me * Dominus nebiscuÌ„ Oremus * Ordinarium Missae secundiâ— vsum Sarum Sursum corda habemus ad Dominum Et cum spiritu tuo * Sacâ—rd se verâ—ens ad populum tacita voce dicat Orate fratres sorores prome O mockerie to desire the people to pray for him and yet so to speake it that no man shal heare it The Papists haue turned edification into gesticulation It is the people and not God that needeth the Priestes voice in the church praiers * Psal. 27. * Aug. de magiâ—â—ro cap. 1. Speach necessary in respect of the people which if they vnderstand not silence would doe theÌ„ as much good If it be needful for the Priest to speak in the Church seruice it is as needeful for the people to vnderstand what he saith The end of speaking is that others maie vnderstand if therâ—ore that want the first is superfluous August de magistro cap. 1. The Priest at his Masse vttereth euerie word as if the people did vnderstand him and ioyne with him in prayer Oremus Gratias agamus Quaesumus Offerimus Laudamus Benedicamus Adoramus Al toungs are alike to God God no respecter of persons much lesse of toungs Pilates act is not so good a reason for the latine seruice as Caiphas prophesie was for the Popes infallible iudgement and yet either is verie foolish Origen contra Celsum lib. 8. All tongues are fitte for praier The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. S. Augustine rackt by the Iesuites from his right meaning August epist. 118. cap. 5. * The worde should be hodie It is madnes to breake the custome of the vniuersall Church in thinges indifferent The Iesuites defend a new custome against the auncient and generall order of Christs Church are they not mad by S. Augustines rule Lyra. in 1. Cor. 14. Iohan. Eckins in locis communibus The south IndiaÌ„s euer had and yet haue their seruice in their mother tongue * Sigismund liber in rerum Moscouit arum Commentariis cap. de dâ—cimis So haue the Moscouites and Armenians * Petrus Bello de moribus Armeniorum All Africa Asia and the North parts of 〈…〉 â—nd barâ—arous tongues Aeneas Syluius hiâ—â— â—ohem cap. 13. God from heauen decided that the Russians and Morauians should haue their seruice in their natiue tongue though it were barbarous Concil Lateranens sub Innocent 3. ca. 9. * in plerisque partibus Populi diuersar linguaruÌ„ * Secundum diuersitates linguarum Mo tongues vsed in the west Church than the Latine tongue The general vse of the primatiue Church confiâ—meth the seruice in the English tongue All tongues allowed in the primatiue Church for men to make their publike prayers in The Iesuits are so Catholike that they haue not so much as one Father for the greatest points of their religion The walles of the Church were theirs but not the faith of the Church Pilates authoritie is all the holde the
Iesuites haue for their latin seruice The praier is not publike except the people vnderstand it and confirme it Pilate wrate the superscription of the crosse not for al the persons in the worlde but for all the strangers that wâ—re at Ierusalem Al the worlde vnderstoode not the three learned tongues What needed the gift of mo tongues and where was the diuision of tongues which God inflicted for building the tower of Babel if the whole earth had gotten to be of three tongues The primatiue Church praied in barbarous tongues a Origen contra Ceâ—sum lib. 8. Euerie nation praied in thâ—â— natiue and mother tongue b Hier. in epitaphiâ— Paul ad Eustâ—chium Praier in the Syrian tongue c Paula Eustochium ad Marcellam vt commigret Bethleem Hier. tom 1. epist. 17. Praiers in as many tongues al-most as there were nations in Bethleem Euerie one of these nations had not sufficient to make a quier or els some of these nations spake the one the same tongue that the other did as diuers of these spake the greeke tongue d August epist. 178. S. August taketh it for a thing confessed that praiers should be vsed in barbarous tongues e August IbideÌ„ What is this but praying in barbarous tongues The seruice in the GothiaÌ„ tongue Kyrie eleison was not vsed in the church of Rome in S. Augustines time f Hieron ad Heliodorum in â—pita NepotiaÌ„ The barbarus Bessians had the melodie of the Crosse in their own tongue g Basil. epist. 63. ad Cleriâ— Neoâ— This order of seruice was vsed in all Churches where the people vnderstoode neither Hebrew Greeke nor Latine The south 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Indians the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ArabiaÌ„s the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Syrians the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Armenians and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Babylonians speake neither Hebrew Greeke nor Latine Basil. Ibidem This order was obserued in al Churches ergo amongst the Barbarians which could none of the learned tongues The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. Mark this pride of the Iesuits where they make themselues wiser and godlier than the primatiue church Their Masse not Catholik The Rhemish Testament fol. a 4â—4 b 448. c 228. The Friers haue serued Ceres and Bacchus so long that now they can not chuse but talke of them The Rhemish Testament fol. 451. nu 20. The Iesuites cannot abide the name of the Lordes supper The Rhemish Testament 1. Cor. 11. * You haue smaller to resist that name What names the Lords supper is called by in the Scripture a 1. Cor. 10. b 1. Cor. 11. The Iesuites alâ—edge themselues their fellowes for good authors to discredite the fathers c August epist. 118. The fathers expound the Lordes supper in S. Paul to be the Sacrament d Hier. in 1. Corinth 11. e Chrysost. in 1. Cor. 11. hom 27 f Ibidem g Chrysost. in illiud Paulâ— oportet esse haereses tom 4. h Theodor. in 1. Cor. 11. i Citatur ab Occumen in 1. Cor. 11. k Beda in 1. Cor. 11. l Haimo in 1. Cor. 11. S. Aug. in one short sermon calleth the Sacrament the Lordes Supper twentie times m Lukâ— 14. The Iesuites will not heare of the Lordes Supper which is the vsuall speach of the fathers but of the Masse which in 600. yeres they find but six times and that neither in the fathers nor to this purpose * Ambros. epist. 33. The Rhemish Testament fol. 447. n Ambros. in 1. Cor. 11. o Ambros. Ibidem The Rhemish Testament fol. 451. The Iesuites demonstrations be mâ—re delusions The Church in S. Paules time had the Lords supper and their brotherlie feasts one at the end of the other These faultes n the Corinthians either immediatlie before or after the Lords supper made them vnfit ghests for the Lordes table It shold seeme by Saint Paul their feasts were before the ministring of the Sacrament 1. Cor. 11. 1. Corint 11. August ep 118. The rehearsal of Christes institution needed not if it had not bin first abused with vnworthy comming to it 1. Cor. 1. a Ambros. in 1. Cor. 11. b Hiero. in 1. Cor. 11. c Ibidem d Chrysost. in illud Pauli oportet esse haereses e August epist. 118. The circumstances of the text maie agree to the Lords supper f Hieron in 1. Cor. 11. g Haymo in 1. Cor. 11. Some circumstances maie well agree though others did not Saint Paul reprooued theÌ„ because their disorders did not agree to the right institution of the Sacrament S. Paul checketh them for their vnworthy comming to the Lordes table ergo his words belong to the Sacrament The name of the Masse is no waie Catholike S. Augustine neuer vsed the worde Masse h Eras. censura in tomum decimum August in sermo de tempore S. Ambrose hath but one in all his writinges and that is missam facere which is not to saie Masse Missa in the fathers is the sending awaie of those that might not be partakers of the Lords table i Polyd. de inuent rerum lib. 5. cap. 11. k Polidor Ibidem Missà l Beati Rhenani annotationes in 4. lib. contra Marcionem Missa in the fathers doth as much signifie the Masse as excommunication doth signifie the coÌ„munion m Isidor Originum lib. 6. de officiis Missa in the fathers directlie opposite to the sacrifice are not the Iesuites then wise meÌ„ by these autorities to proue it to be the name of their sacrifice n Concil Carth. 4. cap. 84. o Serm. de tempore 237. This is a right paterne of the rest of their religion wherein they haue kept the words of the ancient fathers and quite peruerted their meaning The Rhemish Testament 1. Cor. 11. * Though they curse yet thou wilt blesse saith Dauid to God in his 109. Psalme * Iud. epist. He that curseth vs for keeping Christs institution curseth Christ that ordained it and God that commanded vs to obserue it * Alhaile master quoth Iudas when he gaue him a kisse and had sold his life for earthlie gaine The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 11. Vpon it and ouer it are the chiefest points the Iesuits can picke out of Christs institution O this is a terrible narration What kind of blessing Christ did vse φ Matth. 26. Mark 14. Luk. 22. 1. Corinth 11. Mark 14.1 Cor. 10. The Gospels do not differ and therfore they must all agree in this that Christ gaue thanks to God his father These two words be equiualent Of the twaine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the plainer to reprooue the Iesuits crossing The Rhemish Test. vs supra What it is to blesse God a Luk. 24. What it is for one man to blesse an other b Gen. 27. c Gen. 48. d Num. 6. What it is to blesse time and place e 1. Samuel 25. f Sapient 14. g Iob. 3. h Ierem. 20. What it is to blesse the meates and things which we vse What it is to blesse the meates and things