Selected quad for the lemma: saint_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
saint_n	church_n	image_n	invocation_n	1,631	5	10.7407	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A25225	The additional articles in Pope Pius's creed, no articles of the Christian faith being an answer to a late pamphlet intituled, Pope Pius his profession of faith vindicated from novelty in additional articles, and the prospect of popery, taken from that authentick record, with short notes thereupon, defended.	Altham, Michael, 1633-1705.; Altham, Michael, 1633-1705. Creed of Pope Pius IV, or, A prospect of popery taken from that authentick record.	1688 (1688)	Wing A2931; ESTC R18073	87,445	96

honour that we can do them But that they are to be invocated call'd upon or pray'd unto we cannot consent because we have no warrant for it either in the Word of God or any good Antiquity Whether they do offer Prayers to God for us as it is not very certain so is it not any part of the question between us nor if it be granted will it warrant our praying to them As for their Relicks those that are truly such viz. their Sepulchres their Memories their Writings and their good Examples we have a great Veneration for them and do think that they ought not only not to be exposed to any contempt or disgrace but that a very great respect and regard ought to be paid them But that all those things which the Church of Rome tells us are the Relicks of Saints are really such we cannot agree nor can we go along with them in paying them that Veneration which they do we cannot repose any confidence in them nor expect any help or assistance from them nor hope to have our Prayers heard in this place rather than in another upon the account of some Relicks being there As for their Images and the honour and veneration due to them it had been well if either Pope Pius or his Vindicator had thought fit to explain themselves and told us what kind of honour and veneration they mean. The Vindicator indeed saith That they being things relating to God it must be another kind of Regard Honour and Veneration than is usually given to prophane things But whether this is or ought to be called a Religious Honour is matter of dispute but no matter of his Faith. And that as for the manner or external profession of it it ought to be measured from the intention of the Church so that we are still as far to seek for the meaning of it as before Now where can we hope to find what the intention of the Church is unless it be in the Council of Trent and its Catechism out of which Pope Pius extracted these New Articles It may not be amiss therefore before we proceed any further to see what that Council hath determined in these two points viz. The Invocation of Saints and the worship of Images which are the two things promoted in these two Articles and which this Gentleman hath here undertaken to vindicate from Novelty I. Touching the Invocation of Saints The Council hath defin'd That the Saints reigning with Christ do offer their Prayers unto God for us But is this all No it farther declares Concil Trident. Sess 25. Decret de Invocatione c. That it is a good and profitable thing for us in an humble manner to pray unto them But is this all yet No We must have recourse to their Prayers Aid and Assistance Nor is this all for the Bodies of Holy Martyrs and others now living with Christ which have been the living Members of Christ and Temples of the Holy Ghost veneranda sunt are to be worshipped or had in veneration And it expresly damns all those who teach That Veneration and Honour are not due to the Relicks of the Saints or that it is not profitable to honour these Relicks and other sacred Monuments of the Saints or that it is in vain to frequent the Memories of the Saints and that eorum opis impetrandae causâ to obtain their help and assistance Thus far the Council which is seconded by the Catechism which saith We pray to God either to give us good things Catech. ad Parochos Part 4. Tit. Quis sit Orandus or to deliver us from evil but because the Saints are more acceptable to him than we are we beg of them to undertake our cause and to obtain for us those things we stand in need of From whence it comes to pass that we use two very different Forms of Prayer for to God the proper manner of speaking is Have pity on us Hear our Prayer whereas we only desire the Saints to pray for us But then it follows Though it be lawful on another account to pray to the Saints that they would have pity on us for they are mighty merciful And in another place it saith Invocandi sunt c. They are to be prayed unto because they are continually in God's presence and most willingly take upon them patrocinium salutis nostrae the patronage of our Health and Safety which is committed to their care II. Concerning the Worship of Images that Council hath also defin'd That the Images of Christ of the Virgin-Mother of God and of other Saints Sess 25. Decret de Invocatione c. are to be had and retained in Churches But is this all No All due honour and veneration is to be given to them And how is this to be given By kissing those Images uncovering the Head and prostrating our selves before them And is all this for no other end but only to excite in us the remembrance of those they represent Certainly the Council intended something more for it builds this Definition upon the second Council of Nice Concil Nicaen 2. Action 3 4 6. Catech. ad Parochos part 3. de cultu Invocat Sanct. in which it was ordained That the Images of Christ of the blessed Virgin Mary and of the Saints should not only be received into places of Adoration but also should be adored and worshipped And so the Catechism explains it for we are there told That to make and honour the Images of Christ the Lord of his most holy and immaculate Mother and of other Saints is an holy and most certain argument of a grateful mind But is this all No. It is not only lawful to have Images in Churches and to give Honour and Worship to them provided that Honour which is given to them be referred to their Prototypes but also it is for the greatest good and benefit of the Faithful so to do But is this all yet No. The Images of Saints are placed in Temples ut colantur that they may be worshipped This is the Doctrine of the Church of Rome in these two Articles as it is delivered by the Council of Trent and the Catechism ad Parochos out of which these and the other new Articles were collected by Pope Pius IV. Which Doctrine we can by no means comply with nor subscribe to For I. As for the Invocation of Saints 1. We look upon it as a fond thing vainly invented grounded upon no warranty of Scripture but rather repugnant to the word of God. 2. We think it to be highly derogatory to the Mediatorial Office of Jesus Christ 3. We look upon Prayer as an eminent Act of Religious Worship which we think to be due to God alone and ought not to be given to any Creature And II. As for the Worship of Images We think that it is an absolute breach of the second Commandment which forbids the worship of Images and that in words so large

and comprehensive that there is no room left for Evasion For 1. It forbids all external acts of Adoration as bowing down to them or before them 2. It doth not only forbid the Worship of Images as Gods but as Images and Representative Objects 3. It doth not only forbid the Worship of the Images of Heathen Gods but of the Lord Jehovah But all this notwithstanding the Vindicator thinks he hath found out both Scripture and Antiquity wherewith to defend both these Articles For the Invocation of Saints he alledgeth Gen. xlviij v. 16. where Jacob blessing Joseph's two Sons saith The Angel that delivered me from all evil bless the Lads To this I answer That by Angel here is generally understood the Angel of the Covenant viz. Christ the Son of God. But if we should grant him that it is to be understood of an Ordinary Angel yet can he not thereupon avail himself any thing in this case for God being pleased often to make use of the Ministry of Angels in sending succor and relief to good Men Jacob prayed not unto the Angel but to God as may be seen in the 15 Verse that he would appoint the same Blessed Angel that administred unto him in all his streights to be the Instrument of his good providence to those two Sons of Joseph whom he had now made his own and caused them to be called after his name He alledgeth also Rev. i. 4. Rev. v. 8. and Rev. viij 9. The first of these Texts is nothing to his purpose for the most that can be made of it is only this John prays that God would send his Grace to the seven Churches by the Ministry of the seven Spirits there mentioned and what is all this to the matter in hand or how will this warrant our praying to Saints departed Nor will his next Scripture do him any more service for it is generally understood to be either a Representation of the Church below offering up prayers by her Pastors who are the mouths of the Congregation to God or else a Representation of the whole Church of Christ both in Heaven and Earth joining together in their Doxologies and Praises to God for the Victories of the Lamb and the Redemption of the World by his Blood. And this latter seems to be warranted by the very next words where it is said And they sung a new song saying Thou art worthy to take the Book and to open the seals thereof for thou wast slain and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation v. 9. Nor will his other Text any more avail him the 9th verse which he quotes is nothing to the purpose but I suppose he meant v. 4. where it is said That the smoak of the incense which came with the prayers of the Saints ascended up before God out of the Angels hand That by Angel here we are to understand Christ the Angel of the Covenant they themselves dare not deny For the Angel that offered up the Prayers of the Saints in v. 3. is called another Angel different both in Nature and Office from those other seven Angels mentioned v. 2. But if Scripture will not do his business Antiquity he thinks will for that he says is very express in all the Doctrine of this Article And as witnesses of what he says he names St. Cyril Alex. St. Ambrose St. Augustin St. Gregory Nyssen and St. Jerome but without any direction where to find their evidence recorded Only in the Margin he tells us That these Quotations may be seen cited at large in Nubes Testium To all which I shall only return him this Answer That all these Quotations may be seen answered at large in The Antiquity of the Protestant Religion c. First and Second Parts and in another Treatise intituled Veteres Vindicati and in the Answer to the Compiler of Nubes Testium For the Worship of Images All that he offers to prove is no more than this 1. That the making and having of Images in Churches or private Houses is not unlawful 2. That some respect and veneration is due to them both which we readily grant But whether the Veneration and Honour that is due to them ought to be called a Religious Honour This he tells us is a Dispute among Divines but no matter of his Faith. But if this be no matter of his Faith yet it is the only matter of Debate between us and them in this point and that it is the intention of his Church from which he tells us we are to take our measures as to the manner and external profession of this Honour hath been plainly made appear from the Council of Trent and the Catechism ad Parochos out of which this Article is gathered If therefore he doth not prove this as indeed he doth not pretend to do he is so far from vindicating the Doctrine of this Article that he proves nothing at all Not finding therefore any thing in his proofs that tends this way I see no reason either to give my self or the Reader a needless trouble by a tedious examination of them But if there be any thing wherein this Gentleman desires a further satisfaction I would recommend to his perusal if he be permitted to read them two or three small Treatises which have lately been published upon this Subject viz. A Discourse concerning the Object of Religious Worship c. An Answer to a Discourse intituled Papists protesting against Protestant Popery c. A Discourse of the Worship of the blessed Virgin and the Saints c. In which if he doth not find full satisfaction in this matter I must dispair of giving him any I believe that the power of Indulgences has been given and left by Christ to his Church and that the use of them is very beneficial to the Faithful THE Council of Trent hath indeed asserted the Doctrine of Indulgences Contin Sess 25. Decret de ●●●ulg but not explain'd it It damns all those with an Anathema who either affirm them to be unprofitable or deny that the Church hath power to grant them And all this without once letting us know what it means by Indulgences The Bishop of Meaux in his Exposition c. would perswade us that all that is intended by Indulgences is only a Relaxation of Canonical Penance and in complyance with him the Vindicator here seems to be of the same opinion for that is all that he advanceth for the Vindication of this Article That such a power as this was given and left by Christ to his Church and that the due administration of it is very beneficial to the Faithful we willingly grant And that this godly Discipline was anciently used by the Church of Christ we deny not For it is most certain that it was the practise of the Church to enjoin penance to her offending Members and if they did humbly and patiently submit thereunto and prove penitent under them she

heartily desire that he may do it Greg. Naz. in Epist ad Caesareenses Chrysost ad pop Antiochenum Hom. 3. and do it diligently And that this Holy Father meant no more than this may plainly appear from what he saith of the Church of Caesarea It is saith he in a manner the Mother of all Churches and the whole Christian Common-wealth so embraceth and beholdeth it as the Circle embraceth and beholdeth the Center Thus Jerusalem is frequently stiled the Mother of all Churches and St. Chrysostome calls Antioch the Head of the World. Now as these Churches are called Mother Churches because the Cities in which they were planted were the Mother Cities of those Provinces so for the same reason the Church of Rome is oftentimes called the Chief the Principal and the Mother Church because that City was the Metropolis or Head-City of the West And as the Bishops of those Churches may be and oftentimes are called the Chief Rulers and Governours of the Church so likewise and no otherwise the Bishop of Rome is sometimes stiled the Head i. e. the chief Governour of the Church And that by the whole Church here we are to understand no more but only the whole Church of that Province Polydor. Virgil explaining those words of St. Cyprian The Chair of Peter Polydor. Virgil. de Inventor rerum l 4. the principal Church from which the Vnity of the Priesthood first began thus writeth Lest any man hereby deceive himself it cannot in any other wise be said that the Order of Priesthood grew first from the Bishop of Rome unless we understand it only within Italy For it is clear and out of question that Priesthood was orderly appointed at Jerusalem long before Peter ever came to Rome To this I might add That every Bishop may be called the Bishop of the Vniversal Church because it is his duty to take care not only of his own Flock but of the whole Church of God. As also that this Title Head of the Church hath been given to several godly Bishops who were never Bishops of Rome nor ever dreamt that any Supremacy of power over all other Churches was thereby conferred either upon him or them But I am not willing to enter farther into the Controversie than the Vindicator leads me And to this Evidence of his I think enough hath been said to show that it will not much avail him His next witness is St. Chrysostome l. 2. de Sacerd. c. 1. For what reason did Christ shed his Blood Certainly to purchase those sheep the care of which he committed to Peter and his Successors The whole force of his Argument if he can frame any out of these words must be That the Bishop of Rome is the true Successor to St. Peter Which if we should grant him I do not see how it would thence follow that the Bishop of Rome is the Supream Pastor Head and Governor of the Catholick Church For if St. Peter himself was not so he cannot have it by Succession from him De Unitate Eccles Edit Oxon p. 107. Greg. l. 4. Ep. 38. Now St. Cyprian saith The Apostles were the same that St. Peter was being joined in the same fellowship of Honour and Power And their own Pope Gregory saith Peter the Apostle is not the Head but the chief Member of the holy universal Church Paul Andrew and John what are they else but the Heads of several Nations Yet notwithstanding under one Head viz. Christ they are all members of the Church And to speak in short The Saints before the Law the Saints under the Law the Saints in the time of Grace all accomplishing the Lord's Body are placed among the Members of the Church And there was never any one yet that would have himself called the Universal Bishop So that as Paul Andrew and John were Heads of the Church in like manner and no otherwise was St. Peter Head of the Church If therefore St. Peter was then they were all so too for they were all equal and what a confusion that would be let the Vindicator judge To this may be added That if St. Peter was really the Prince of the Apostles and Head of the Church constituted by Christ St. Paul certainly was very much to blame Gal. ii 2. to withstand him to the face as he did And it must be a very great Arrogance and presumption in him to say That in nothing he was behind the very chiefest Apostles 2 Cor. xij 11. Gal. ij 7. Or to share Jurisdiction with him saying That the Gospel of the Vncircumcision was committed unto him as the Gospel of the Circumcision was unto Peter But St. Chrysostome Chrysost in Epist ad Galat. c. ii whose Authority he so much depends upon will tell him That Paul had no need of Peter 's help nor did he want his voice but was equal unto him in Honour Besides all this One may be said to succeed another either because he possesseth the same place that he did or because he teacheth the same Doctrine and with the same diligence that he did Now the former of these will not be enough to make any one the true Successor of St. Peter Alphons contra Haeres l. 1. c. 9. for as their own Alphonsus de Castro saith Though it be matter of Faith to believe the true Successor of St. Peter is the Supream Pastor of the whole Church yet are we not bound by the same Faith to believe that Leo or Clement though Bishops of Rome are the true Successors of St. Peter And yet this is the Succession they so much boast of and if this be it Dist 40. Multi the same St. Chrysostom will inform him That it is not the Chair that makes the Bishop but it is the Bishop that makes the Chair Neither is it the place that Halloweth the Man but it is the Man that Halloweth the place Dist 40. Non est facile And St. Jerome will tell him They are not always the Children of Holy Men that sit in the rooms of Holy Men. Nor did these Holy Fathers speak without Book for the Scribes and Pharisees sat in Moses's Chair Matth. xxiij 2. And the Abomination of Desolation shall stand in the holy Place Matth. xxiv 15. And the Man of Sin as God shall sit in the Temple of God 2 Thes ij 3 4. As the first of these did Succeed Moses in place but not in Doctrine so the two other shall succeed Christ and his Apostles And thus Pope Liberius though an Arian Heretick and Pope Coelestinus though a Nestorian and Pope Honorius though a Monothelite may be said to succeed St. Peter in place though not in Doctrine But will the Vindicator say or can he imagine that St. Chrysostom meant That Christ shed his Blood to purchase a Church and when he had done committed the care of it to such Successors of St. Peter as these were His next is St. Jerome Epist 57 and 58.