your own Translator else where translates so Pa. Yet Primasius S. Austines Scholler reads it as it is in our vulgar Latin With such hosts God is promerited Prot. Yea but how know you that that Commentarie is Primasius his owne for it is the selfe same which is fathered on Haymo who liued after the yeere 800. whose credit is nothing answerable to Primasius Pa. Well let both these places passe Is not a plaine text for extreme vnction which is in S. Iames Infirmatur quis in vobis If any among you bee dangerously sicke let him send for the Priests of the Church and they to pray ouer him anealing him with oyle in the name of the Lord. Prot. Of whom learned you to translate Infirmatur quis in vobis If any man bee dangerously sicke c. I thought the word Infirmatur had signified any infirmitie great or small growing vpon a man And if so then the text makes as much against you as vs. For first you aneale not all such persons as are infirm but only such as you suppose to be desperately sicke sick vnto death Secondly you send not Presbiters Priests but any one bold Priest to anoint them and pray ouer them Thirdly you intend principally in anealing them the forgiuenesse of sinnes whereas by the text is principally intended the curing of them of their infirmities Which is so plaine that a Cardinall of your owne renounceth this text as not making for you Pa. What Cardinall is that Prot. Caietan whose wordes these are Nec ex verbis nec ex effectu verba haec loquuntur de sacramentali vnctione extreme vnctionis sed mag is de vnctione quam instituit Dominus Iesus in Euangelio à discipulis exercendam in agrâ—tis Textus enim non dicit Infirmatur quis in vobis ad mortem sed absolute infirmatur quis Et effectam dicit infirmi alleuiationem de remissione peccatorum non loquitur nisi conditionaliter quum extrema vnctio non nisi prope articulum mortis datur Et directe vt eius forma sonaâ—â— tendiâ— ad remissionem peccatorum praeter hoc quod Iacobus ad vnum agrum multes presbyteros tum orantes tum vngentes mandâ—t vocari quod ab extrema vnctionis ritâ— alienum est Pa. But is not that a plaine text for proofe of satisfaction which is alledged by Doctor Harding out of 2 Cor. 7. 1. Prot. What are the words Pa. Seeing then wee haue these promises dearely beloued let vs clense our selues from all filthinesse of the flesh and spirit making perfect our satisfaction in the feare of God Prot. These are plaine words I promise you But I doe not remember that I euer read such words either in the Greeke or in any translation Your Doctor I beleeue hath shewed a piece of cunning and chopt in the word satisfaction for sanctification and quite altered the Apostles meaning Pa. God forbid he should haue dealt so naughtily But what say you to the text alledged by Cardinal Hosius out of Rom. 6. 19. for the same doctrine of Satisfaction Is it not pregnant to his purpose Prot. How cites he it Pa. Exhibeamus membra nostra seruire iustitiae in satisfactionem Let vs exhibit our members to serue iustice vnto satisfaction Prot. In good earnest this is a plaine text but it is none of Saint Pauls It is one of your Cardinalls owne making As Harding in the former so your Cardinall in this hath chopt in the word satisfaction for sanctification and made a proposition of his owne different from S. Pauls I wish it were no Argument of their sanctification to deale so falsly with the Scriptures they had need to make satisfaction though not to God because they cannot yet to his Church for such bad dealing Pa. But are there not expresse words for the supremacy of S. Peter Matt. 16. where we read thus Thou art a rocke and vpon this rocke will I build my Church M. Walsingham saith That the Author of the answere to M. Charks booke giues this for one instance in way of prouing that expresse Scripture is for vs. Prot. I know no such text in S. Matthew as Thou art a Rock I finde there Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I will build my Church but Thou art a rocke and vpon this rocke I will build my Church is not in any booke nor in any Bible that I haue seene Pa. Are these words Dies prima erit sancta septima eadem Religione venerabiles The first day shal be holy and the seuenth day with like religion shall be venerable wherby Cardinall Bellarmine would proue That euery holy thing is to bee religiously worshipped in your Bible mee thinkes they are plaine to proue his purpose Prot. Yea but those are not in my Bible nor in yours I thinke your false Cardinall hath most irreligiously chopt in a word religiously in the Text make search and trust me worse another time if it be not so Pa. I will I warrant you In the meane let mee heare what plaine Text you can alledge for proofe of your opinions Prot. Content Doe not these words in Deutronomy 4. 15 16 Take heed vnto your selues for yee saw no Image in the day that the Lord spake vnto you in Hereb that yee corrupt not your selues and make you a grauen Image c. plainely proue That the Scriptures forbid the representing of God by any Image And yet doe not yee represent God the Father by the Image of an old man and the most of you maintaine That hee may lawfully be represented in such an Image Pa. I confesse with Vasquez That in the words you cite planè indicat Scriptura c. The Scripture speakes plainely that God did forbid the Iewes to represent him by any Image But you must know that Licet in lege veteri prohibitae fuissent lege dâ—uâ—na imagines visibiles nedum ipsius Dei sed qu rumcunque sanctorum hominum nec de post in Scripturis siue veteris siue Noui Testamenti concessa licentia eius faciendi aut fabricandi reperiatur nihilominus Ecclesia Catholica edocta à spiritu sancto nedum permisit imo statuit ordinauit vt venerabiles Imagines Christi gloriâ—sissimae suae matris caeterorum sanctorum fierent c. Though in old time the visible Images of God yea and of his Saints were forbidden by the Law of God and no libertie granted since either in the Old or New Testament to make any such yet the Church which is taught of God hath not onely permitted but decreed and ordained That the Images of Christ and his blessed Mother the Virgin Mary and the rest of the Saints may bee made for sundry good purposes Prot. What dare you say The Church hath decreed contrary to that which God commanded in holy Scripture If so you must needs grant That the Scripture in this is for vs and against you The pretended Church not
THE ABATEMENT OF POPISH BRAGGS PRETENDING SCRIPTVRE TO BE THEIRS RETORTED BY THE HAND OF ALEXANDER COOKE LONDON Printed by WILLIAM IONES dwelling in Red-Crosse-streete 1625. TO ALL LAY PAPISTS IN THIS KINGDOME DEare Countreymen and seduced brethren I religiously protest I honour some of you and loue all of you Grieuing in my very soule that you and I acknowledging one and the selfe same true God cannot hit vpon the worshiping of him after one and the selfe same true manner Oh that I might liue to see the day wherein we might agree in one But I haue small hope to see it as long as you suffer your Priest to bring you in bondage to deuoure you to take your goods as the Corinthians suffered the false Apostles to ferue them Por as the leaders of the people caused Israel to erre and their shepheards caused them to goe astray turned them away to the mountaines so it is your Priests that haue misled you and that they may make merchandize of you as the false Prophets who in St. Peters dayes taught damnable heresies made of them who followed their destruction it is your Priests who doe hinder your returne into the right way To alienate your affections from vs they tell you That we teach All sinnes are equall All Scripture is very easie That we maintaine the heresie of the Simonians which was that men might bee saued by the grace of Simon Magus and the heresie of the Eunomians which was That whosoeuer beleeued one especiall point of doctrine which they beleeusd viz. That the Son of God is altogether vnlike the Father and the Holy-Ghost vnlike the Sonne could not possibly be damned how damnably soeuer hee liued They report wee maintaine the her esy of the Repusians which was That women might be Priested and one of the heresiesof Iouinian which was That a man truely baptized could sinne no more and another of the same mans which was That the Virgin Mary at the time of her child-birth lost her virginitie They report wee maintaine that heresie of Vigilantius which was That Clergy men ought of necessity to be married and that of the Pelagtans viz That the children of the faithfull are not tainted with originall sin and that of the Graecians viz That iust men shall not see the face of god before the day of dome and that of the Pseudo apostoli which was That onely faith is sufficient to saluation without workes and that of the Nouatians which consisted in dening the Churches power to forgiue sinnes and that of the Aérians to wit That solemne fasts are not to be appointed by the Church They would make you beleeue we plainely deny Melchizedech to haue ben a Priest That we teach God can doe no more then he hath done or will doe That water in Baptisme is not necessary That we abhorre the prayers of the Saints That we take away pennance fasting chastity keeping of vowes necessity of good workes obedience to Ecclesiasticall persons That it is not in our power to choose euill That the Angels cannot helpe vs. That no saint deceased hath afterward appeared to any in earth That fasting is not grounded vpon scripture no nor blessing and in briefe to passe by many other some of them are not ashamed to say we beleeue the soules of men are mortall and that there is no resurection and that Christ Iesus is not come in the flesh from all which errors heresies and blasphemies we are as farre as they are from truth honesty On the other side to win your affections to thē they beare you in hand that the Scriptures the Fathers the Counsels are all yours that Heauen yea Hell the gates of Cities the glasse-windowes in Churches res et reculae giue testimony to your Religion Whereas yet they dare not referre the iudgement of such differences asare betweene vs either to Scripture or Fathers or Counsels but onely to the present Church which is all one in effect as if they referred it vnto themselues or to your Pope they being in their opiniō the Church representatiue the Pope being the Church virtually who only hath power to iudge of controuersies Now doe you not smell there is some pad in the straw by their diuelish slaundring of vs and their cogging with you I passe by their restraining you from reading any of ourbookes especially the Bible of our translation though one of them of late assures you That our condemnation is so expresly set downe in our owne Bibles and is so cleere to all the world that nothing more needs hereto but onely that you know to reade and to haue your eyes in your heads at the opening of our Bible which might giue you occasion to suspect some falshood for if our condemnation bee so expressely set downe in them why may not you for your greater comfort reade them Onely I wish you would be pleased to consider seriously whether it be likely they had any honest meaning in making their Indices Expurgatorios forbidding you to reade books writtē by your owne frends till they had patched something into them which might make for you and torne out of them whatsoeuer they thought did make against you Mee thinks considering your many good morall parts you should not be so stupid as not to perceiue or so blinde as not to see there is some my stery of iniquity in it that you may neither reade what your friends or foes haue written Quidam senex c A certaine old man as one of your owne writers being asked by one who had a purpose to betake himselfe into a Monastery how he should carry himselfe after his admission answered him in good earnest Tuet Asinus vnum estote Carry thy selfe like an Asse refuse no burthen that is laid vpon thy backe Doe not groane at it For my part I feare they would make Asses of you all They would haue you to receiue hand ouer head whatsoeuer they reach you to beleeue without search whatsoeuer they tel you But as some of you are Noble Gentlemen others of you good fellows be not Asse fied by them Remember that you are men men of vnderstanding and able to iudge of reason when you heare it Beleeue none of your Priests vpon their bare words without proofe but especially take heede how you lightly beleeue your ordinary Masse-Priests for in truth the most of them are ignorant Sir Iohns not much vnlike the Bishop of Dunkelden who thanked God he neuer knew what the old and new Testament was The most of them are not much guiltie of learning Take hearts vnto you beloued Countreymen and reade our bookes and our Bibles my soule for yours you may doe it with good consciences and with much profit to your selues But if you cannot be perswaded thereunto yet
let me intreate this of you that you will forbeare to censure either our bookes or our persons vpon your Priests bare information For their words are no Gospel their tongues no slaunder And that you would remember that of g Tertullian Quid iniquius quà m vt oderint homines quod ignorant etiamsi res mereatur odium Tuncenim meretur cum cognoscitur an mereatur Vacante auteÌ„ meriti notitia vnde odij iustitia defenditur quae non deeventu sed de conscientia probanda est with which I end wishing to you all as to my selfe a comfortable life and blessed death Leeds in Yorkshire May 20. 1625. ALEXANDER COOKE A DIALOGVE BETWIXT A PROTESTANT AND A PAPIST Wherein is manifested the Papists Brag that Scripture maketh for them Protestant OH well met once againe where haue you bin that I neuer saw you since wee talked about Pope Ioane Are you the same man for Religion that you was then Papist Yea truely or rather more resolute and confident Prot. What new arguments haue you lighted on to increase your resolution and confidence for my part I am euery day further out of loue with your Religion then other Pa. The Arguments which haue doubled my resolution and confidence are diuers wherof the first is this That I find sentence giuen for vs Catholikes against you Protestants in all the Tribunals of Gods Church I finde that all the Writings of the Saints in Heauen professe for vs. Prot. What the Writings of the Prophets and of the Apostles and of the Fathers in the Primitiue Church and of the Councels Doe you finde that all professe for you Pa. Yea all of them Quaecunque vel opera vel fragmenta supersunt eorum qui disiunctissimis terris Euangelium seuerunt omnes nobis vnam fidem exhibent quam hodie Catholici profitemur There is not a booke nor a piece of a booke extant written by the first Preachers of the Gospel whensoeuer or how far so euer they liued one from another but it giues witnesse to the Catholike Faith which wee professe at this day Prot. Can you make proofe thereof vnto mee and I will bee of your Religion Pa. That I can and I will first begin with Scriptures for I am of Doctor Saunders opinion That there are most plaine Scriptures in all points for the Catholike Faith and none at all against the same And of Doctor Bristoes mind whose words these are Most certaine it is that from the beginning of Genesis to the end of the Apocalips there is no Text that makes for you nor against vs but all for vs. Prot. Say you so Verily and if the Scriptures be for you I will be with you for I like well of Saint Basils motion to one with whom hee had a controuersie Stemus arbitratu inspiratae à Deo Scriptura apud quos inueniuntur dogmata diuinis oraculis consona illis omnino veritas adiudicetur sententiae Let vs stand to the arbiterment of holy Scripture and let them be thought to haue the truth on their side whose opinions are found to be agreeable to Scriptures But let mee tell you a word or two by the way and they are these viz. That you are not more thorowly perswaded of the truth of your two Doctors speeches then I am of a Gentlemuns speech of our Religion who being importuned by an idle Questionist of your side to tell where our Religion was before Luthers time returned him this answere That our Religion was alwaies in the Bible where your Religion neuer was In which perswasion I am the more confirmed by this That there are of your selues no fooles I wisse who write that some among you Poene peceatum putant Scripturas legere ne sic siant haeretici Doe thinke it almost a sinne to read the Scriptures least by reading of them they should proue hereticks For if your Religion were in the Bible and that in so plaine manner as you brag why should any of you bee so afraid of opening a Bible why did one of your Iesuits confesse that Lectis Bebliotuâ—t cicius haereticum Lutheranum quam Catholicum Romanum facit The reading of the Bible makes rather Hereticall Lutherans then Romau Catholikes Why suffer you this marginal Note Nunc exâ—â—udit haresies to be set ouer these words of Chrysostaâ—â— â—gâ—oratio scripturarum peperit haereses Pa. I meane not to take vpon mee the iustifying of euery mans priuate conceits or speeches but what I my selfe haue said all that shall bee made good I will proue vnto you the troth of our Religion by the Bible Prot. Now indeede I am afraid you are bewitched with that damnable opinion which of later yeeres hath runne currantly among you viz. Sunt scriptura Vâ—lut nasus cereus qui se her sum illorsum in quam volueris partem trahi retrahi fingique facile permittit tanquam plumbea quadam Lesbiâ—â—disicationis regula quam no◠〈◊〉 difficile accommodare ad quiduis volueris The Scriptures are like a nose of waxe which may bee writhen this way or that way backward or forward as a manwould would haue it And with that of Quintinus the Parisian Doctor commended by Pamelius who writes thus Tam facile est imâ— facilius est adres profanas impias prâ—bandas detorquere sanctam scripturam quam facile est pedibus ac semi-pedibus aut penthememeribus Virgilianis Epithalmia sen quiduis aliud in vnum congerere It is as casie yea it is more easie to wrest the Scripture to the prouing of any villany or impiety then to make a Loue Song by snatching here a patch and there a patch of a Verse out of Virgil. And that in confidence hereof you hope to make a shew of somewhat out of the Bible for the prouing of your Religion otherwise I know not what should moue you to beginne with Scripture You haue forgotten I beleeue that Doctor Bristow describing the meanes to make plaine demonstration that Heretikes haue no euidence but you all aduiseth his Agents to labour still to get the Heretickes out of their weake and false Castle of holy Scripture into the plaint fields of Councels and Fathers For all his bragging of the Scriptures hee put but a little trust in them hee was loth to haue them in the foreward Pa. But I am content they match in the foreward if you will beleeue me Prot. Why but I pray you then place the best formost And if we fall into dispute with Saint Peters Supremacie trouble mee not with such Texts as some of your Rabbies alledge for it Tell me not that our Sauiour Christ said vnto S. Peter onely Duc in altum Launch into the deepe Noâ— potuisti vna hora vigilare mecum Couldst thou not watch one houre with mee Sequere me Follow me Neither tell mee in way of prouing the same That S. Peter cut off Malous care And if from that wee fall
Sorbonist finding it written at the end of S. Pauls Epistles Missa est c. bragd hee had found the Masse in his Bible And that another reading in S. Iohn 1. 42. inuenimus Messiam x drew thence the same conclusion In Salaminca a Frier tooke vpon him to proue That the name of the Virgin Mary was spoken of Gen. 1. where wee read that God called the gatherings together of the waters Maria. I doubt not but he thought it an open and euident text for his turne In another place another Frier speaking of the words Ge. 14. 18. Rex Salem panem ac vinū pertulit fell into a long discourse of the nature of Salt the nature of Salt ◠beleeue he could hardly haue been perswaded that Salem there had not signified Salt Your D. Poynes who writes That it was foretold in the Old Testament That the Protestants were a malignant Church alledging for proofe thereof 2. Chr. 24. 19. where according to our vulgar Translation we read thus Mittebatque prophet as vt reuerterentur ad Dominum quos protestantes illi audire nolebant thought an hundred for one that the text was plaine And it may bee that Parish Priest of yeeres who being at controuersie with his Parishioners about pauing some plot of ground and alledging the wordes in Ier. 17. 18. to proue that he was not bound to paue any place saying Paueant illi ego non paueant was not in iest but in good earnest thinking the letter of the text made euidently for him Verily I am perswaded that that Painter whosoeuer he was who first painted Moses with a paire of hornes making him as the Iewes say like a deuil thought the text in Exod. 34. 30. where you read Faciem Moses esse cornutam Moses face was horned a plaine warrant for his picturing him so And I make no question but d they who make the world beleeue they haue the two keyes of S. Peter at Rome shewing them sometimes that they may bee adored if they were vrged to make proofe how S. Peter came by those keyes would alledge the words of the Euangelist To thee will I giue the keyes of the Kingdome of heauen as an open and euident text for that matter Pa. What adoe make you about had I wists I tell you once againe The Scriptures which I will alledge shall be plaine and the expositions such as you shall take no acceptions against For for the the truth of our expositions of holy Scripture wee haue the continuall tradition of the Church and the testimony and suffrage of all the holy Fathers and of thousands of Saints and learned men who euer expounded it as we doe and out of it gathered the selfe same doctrine and beliefe Prot. No meruaile if this be so that you sweare thē whole Colledge of your Cardinalls all your Archbishops Bishops Priests Abbats Priors Friers Graduats that they shall neuer take the Scriptures in other sense or interpret it to others in other sense then that which the Fathers gaue thereof with ioynt consent But I meruell as much that you blush not in saying as you doe as that they tremble not who administer and take such an oath for as they wittingly giue occasion of periury who administer such an oath and they periure themselues who take such an oath so you apparently speake ouer Yet seeing you are so confident let vs fall to our worke roundly And first let mee heare by you what the Scriptures are which are so plaine for the proofe of your opinions and when you haue done you shall heare by me what plaine texts may be alledged for proofe of our opinions Pa. Take then that for the first Host est corpus meum Hic est sanguis meus This is my body This is my bloud Prot. For what opinion of yours is this Scripture so plaine Pa. For the Reall presence in the Sacrament which you deny Prot. Wee beleeue as well as you That Christs flesh and bloud are truely present and truely receiued of the faithfull at the Lords Table We teach the people that Christieorpus datur accipitur manducatur in Caena The body of Christ is giuen indeed and verily and taken and eaten in the Lords Supper The question betweene vs and you is de modo about the manner of Christs presence and not de obiecto whether hee bee present or no. You say Christ is in the Sacrament really substantially corporally carnally naturally Yea you say He is there sensualiter sensibly vt manibus sacerdotum tractari velfrangi aut fidelium dentibus atteri possit so that the Priests may handle him and breake him with their hands and the faithfull may teare him with their teeth Now this manner of presence we deny and the letter of the wordes which wee alledge proues not that For Christ said This is my body and not This is my body in such a manner Caietan your Cardinall confesseth Non apparere ex Èuangelio coactivum aliquid quo possimus conuincere-haereticos ad intelligendum verba haec Hoc est corpus meum propriè sed tenendum hoc esse solùm ex authoritate Ecclesiae quae ita verba consecrationis declarat There is nothing in the Gospel whereby an Hereticke may bee inforced to expound the words This is my body properly but men are to beleeue so because the Church teacheth so And Fisher Bishop of Rochester confesseth Neque vllum hîc viz. in Matth. verbum positum est quo probetur in nostra Missa veram fieri carnis sanguinis Christi praesentiam There is not a word in S. Matthews Gospel whereby it can be proued that Christ is really present in your Sacrament Your second instance had need be plainer Pa. My second instance is plaine enough for we haue expresly The bread which I will giue is my flesh Ioh. 6. 51. Prot. For what opinion of yours are these words so plaine Pa. For the former point euen for the Reall presence in the Sacrament And yet you expound them as if no more were meant by them then that wee should haue giuen vs the signe of his flesh onely Prot. We doe not expound them so We say That the wordes are meant of Christ himselfe the word that was made flesh Ioh. 1. 14. Wee expound them not of the signe of his flesh We teach That the true bread the bread of God which came downe from heauen and giueth life vnto the world is Christ euen the flesh the very flesh of Christ that is Christ incarnate and that hee gaue vs this bread to eate not in the Sacrament but vpon the Crosse And this exposition of ours is approued for good by Gabriel Biel Lect. 84. super Canon Missae By Nic. Cusanus Epist 7. ad Bohemos By Caietan in 3. part Tho. 9. 80. Art vlt. By Ruard Tapperus in explicat Artic. 15. Louan To. 2. By Hessels lib.
fathers who are best assured of their husbands and parents constant loue vnto them Feare of Gods anger against vs by reason of our sins may well stand with assurance of saluation Else why did Dauid require That wee should serue the Lord in feare and reioyce in trembling May a man tremble and yet reioyce and may hee not feare to offend and yet be assured of fauour Pa. Well wee haue expresly That euery man shall be iudged according to his workes A poc 20. Prot. Good And so haue wee Pa. Nay you teach That men shall be iudged only according to their faith Prot. That is not true We teach that seeing it is most fitting for the nature and condition of iudgements to take the euidence whereupon the sentence shall bee pronounced from such things as are most notorious the works good or euill being knowne both to Men and Angells whereas faith which hath her seat in the heart is only seene of the Lord it is most conuenient for iustifying the truth of the Iudge before the world that those things should bee giuen in euidence which fall into the knowledge of the standers by especially when the godly themselues shall be admitted into part of the honour of our Sauiour Christs iudiciall sentence against the reprobates And for this cause it is as we say that our Sauiour at the latter day will say Come yee blessed of my Father For when I was hungry you gaue me meate rather then For that you haue beleeued in mee Haue you any more to say Pa. Yea Wee haue expresly That there remains a retribution stipend and pay to euery good worke in heauen Mark 9. 1 Corinth 3. Apoc. 22. Psal 118. Prot. And doe wee denie it Wee beleeue no good deed shall be lost no not the bestowing of a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple Wherefore this makes nothing against vs. Pa. Yea but you teach Good workes done in Christ merit nothing Prot. Yea but it is one thing to teach That good works done in Christ find retribution and paiment in heauen and another thing to say They merit some things for retribution and stipends and paies are as well giuen of curtesie as of debt or merit Wherefore we teach the former and deny the latter VVhat is your next instance Pa. Wee haue expresly That the affliction which Daniel vsed vpon his bodie was acceptable in the sight of God Dan. 10. Prot. And what is that to vs Pa. Much for you teach That such voluntary corporall afflictions are in vaine Prot. But wee doe not Wee teach with S. Paul 1 Tim. 4. 8. that Corporall exercise voluntarie corporall afflictions are profitable to little There is some good vse of them Not a man of vs teacheth that such voluntary corporall afflictions as Daniel vsed and to such end as hee did vse them are in vaine Haue you not done Pa. No wee haue a plaine text Gen. 48. God who hath fed mee from my youth vp euen to this day The Angel who hath deliuered mee from all aduersâ—ie blesse these children Which implies as much as if we would say God and our Ladie blesse them Prot. By the Angel which is here praied vnto is not meant any created Angel but the Angel of the euerlasting Couenant Christ Iesus as it is plaine by the circumstances of the text and by that testimony of the Fathers And therfore this praier doth not iustifie your praier God and our Lady blesse them No man euer conceiued a praier after this manner Det tibi Deus Angelus that is in effect God and our Lady blesse them saith Athanasius Pa. We haue expresly It is an holy cogitation to pray for the dead 2. Mach. 12. Prot. Yea but the Booke of Machabees is not Canonicall Scripture as I shall proue vnto you ere wee part Now I looke for proofe at your hands out of the Canonicall Scripture Pa. Why then if I should tell you we read expresly in the same Booke that Ieremy the Prophet after hee was dead praied for the people of Israel wherby is proued Intercession of Saints you would put mee off with this That the Scripture alledged by me is not Canonicall Scripture Prot. I might doe so yet I need not for we deny not that Saints make intercession for vs in generall And your Bellarmine alledgeth this to that purpose only Hee alledgeth it not either to proue Inuocation of Saints or the intercession of Saints in particular Pa. And what would you answere me if I vrged That wee haue an expresse example of an holy man that offered sacrifice for the dead 2 Mach. 12. Prot. I would answere you to it That the holy man you meane of offered sacrifice for the liuing and not for the dead And for the full proofe thereof I would referre you to Doctor Reinolds Readings vpon the Apocrypha praelect 158. Pa. And what answere should I looke to receiue of you vpon mention that Tobit 12. wee read expresly That an Angel did present Tobias good workes and almes deeds before God Prot. My answere to that should bee That the booke is Apocrypha Pa. And is not the Booke of Ecclesiasticus Apocrypha in which wee read expresly thus Omnis misericordia faciet locum vnicuique secundum meritum operum Mercie shall make a place to euery man according to the merit of his workes Prot. Yes but I will vse the exception in this case The exception which I take is that the wordes are cited out of a corrupt Translation for in the Greek wherein Ecclesiasticus was first written there is no mention made of merit To euery pitlifull act of goodnesse giue place for euery one shall find not according to the merit of his works but according to his works saith the Greeke Pa. Indeed I confesse the word merit is not in the Greeke for the word merit is not Greeke but Latine yet the Greeke wordes are well translated by the word merit no man can deny who knowes the rudiments of Greek for in the Greek it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which in Latine signifies as much as pro meritis operum Prot. Indeed you fit it for our Sauiour Christ warning his disciples how they should carry themselues towardes the Scribes and Pharisies Doe not saith hee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not meaning after the merit of their workes but simply after their works Your great M. Cardinal Bellarmine of whom you had this was deceiued Pa. And is that proofe which we fetch for merits out of Heb. 13. 16. fetched out of a corrupt translation Beneficence and communication forget not for with such sacrifices God is promerited Prot. Yea verily for according to the Greeke the Apostle saith no more but That with such hosts God is wel pleased And that may appeare vnto you by this that both S. Austine and Beda read so and
the Scripture is for you onely Wherefore to goe on The Scriptures forbid expresly The adoring or seruing of any similitude or Image Exod. 20. 4. yet you teach That Similitudes Images of Christ and his Saints may be adored and serued Pa. I confesse with Vasquez here also That the Law giuen to the Iewes forbad Non solum cultum Idolâ—latriâ— sed quamuis adorationem vsum imaginum Not onely that adoration and seruice which was due to God but all manner of adoration and seruing Images But the case is now altered Prot. Yet in the maine it appeares That in this the Scripture is for vs also And is not Exod. 21. 14. so too wherin we find an expresse commandement binding vs to take the wilful Murtherer from Gods Altar that he may die seeing you haue sanctuaries out of which no malefactor no murtherer may bee taken that iudgement may passe on him Pa. I confesse with Polidore Virgil Sunt in orbe nostro Christiano passim Asyla qua non in insidias timentibus sed quibusuis sontibus etiam Maie statis reis patent There are many sanctuaries amongst vs which are receptacles not onely for such as are afraid of mischiefe towardes themselues but to all malefactors euen to Traytors And I for my part confesse further with him Quod templa nostra vbique genâ—ium istiusmedi sceleratis hominibus instar Asylorum sunt id contra quam Moses constituer at Exodus 21. That our Churches in all places serue for sanctuaries to all manner of wicked persons though God by Moses did forbid the same Exod. 21. To tel you truely I thinke it is plaine that Nihil immunitatis sacâ—r prestaret locus The holinesse of the place should not priuiledge wilfull murtherers though it be to true which Hieronimus ab Olea stro writes nuÌ„c sacra loca homicidarum id genus peccatorum speluncae factae sunt Holy places at this day are made refuges for murtherers and such like wicked persons Prot. Well then the Scripture in this is ours and so I doubt not you will confesse that Scripture is wherein the Stewes and Brothel houses are expresly condemned viz. Deut. 23. 17. for they are tolerated and defended by you Pa. I know they are tolerated in some Catholike Countries and defended by some Catholikes But I am of Nauarrus minde Magis expediret non permittere It were better they were not tolerated I thinke Espenceus had iust cause to say Huius permissionis nos non semel pudurt Christianam scilicet Remp. eo carere non posse quod tandiu hoc est annis plus 1500. non admisit Mâ—saica I haue beene often ashamed to thinke of the toleration for Stewes That the Christian Common-wealth should not be able to stand without admission of that which the Common-wealth of Israel by the space of 1500. yeeres and vpward would neuer admit of What other instance haue you Prot. The Scriptures forbid expresly The marrying of a mans Aunt and of a Brothers wife Leuit 18. v. 14. 16. Yet you approue the Nephewes marrying his Aunt and of any mans marrying his Brothers wife if the parties haue your Popes dispensation Doe you thinke that your Popes dispensations will stand good against the Scriptures Pa. Yea in things forbid◠〈◊〉 positiue proprio Iudaeorum By some positiâ—e Law peculiar to the Iewes though not in things forbidden iure naturae by the law of Nature Now these kinds of marriages were forbidden not by the law of Nature but by a positiue law peculiar to the Iewes as you may see in Cardâ—nall Bellarmine Prot. These marriages were forbidden by the law of Nature and not by a positiue law peculiar to the Iewes for the Heathen who liued in Canaan before the Iewes and were not punishable for breaking of positiue lawes peculiar to the Iewes but for breaking of the lawes of nature by these and such like marriages defiled the Land and for such marriages the Land did spue them out as you may see Leuit. 18. 27 28. and of which you may read more in your learned Frier Hieronimus ab Oleastro Exposit ad literam in Leuit. 18. Wherefore to proceed In the Scriptures it is expresly written That a man cannot lay his hand vpon the Lords anointed and be guiltlesse 1. Sam. 26. 9. Yet you teach contrary In Scriptures we read expresly That a Prince deposed euen the high Priest but no where that a Priest deposed a lawfull Prince Yet by your Iâ—suiticall Religion A Pope may depose a lawfull Prince but a Prince may not depose a Priest The Scriptures require expresly That they who vow should vow vnto the Lord Psal 76. 11. and testifie as expresly That all the vowes recorded in them were made vnto the Lord insomuch that your Cardinall Bellarmine was forced to confesse Cum scriberentur Scripture Sancta nondum coeperat vsus vouendi sanctis When the Scriptures were written it was not the vse to vow to Saints Yet you doe ordinarily vow to Saints and take vpon you the Iustifying of vowes to Saints The Scriptures require expresly That when men pray they should pray vnto the Lord Psalme 50. 51. Matt. 6. 9. and testifie as expresly That all the prayers of holy men recorded in them were made vnto the Lord insomuch that some of your greatest Clerks confesse Orationes esse ad sanctâ—s faciendas neque expressè neque impressè inuolutè sacra literâ— docent The holy Scriptures neither teach expresly nor impliedly that prayers may bee made to Saints Yet you do ordinarily pray to Saints and iustifie your practise of praying to Saints The Scriptures require expresly That men should beleeue in God 2 Chro. 20. 20. and as expresly commend them who beleeue in God 1 Pet. 1. 8. yet you of later yeeres haue begun to teach That wee may beleeue in men Pa. Why say you That of later yeeres we haue begun to teach That men may beleeue in men Did not our Church teach alwaies so Prot. No fiue or sixe hundred yeeres agoe such doctrine went not for currant in your Church for when the Waldensians in a Councell holden at Rome vnder Alexander the third were asked by one Gualter Mape whether they beleeued in the Mother of Christ they answered that they did so Ab omnibus sunt multiplici clamore derisi They were laught to scorne by the Pope and all the Councell Which shewes that the doctrine of beleeuing in Saints was then a ridiculous doctrine euen in your Church The Scripture requires expresly That men should trust in God Psal 115. 9 10 11. and as expresly curseth them who trust in man Ierem. 17. 5. yet you like well that men should trust in men else would you burne the Virgin Maries Psalter made by Bonauenture in which there is so often mention of trusting in our Ladie as hereafter I shall shew you The Scriptures teach expresly That sacrifices are
neuer sinned In the Scriptures Saint Paul speaking of Concupiscence in expresse termes calls it sinne Rom. 6. 12. as you your selues confesse Yet yee deny Concupiscence is sin and tell vs soberly that Apostolus Concupiscentiam peccatum votaâ— at non liceâ— nobis it a loqâ—â— Though the Apostle calls it sinne yet we may not call it so In the Scriptures we read expresly That whatsoeuer is not of faith is sin Rom. 14. 23. Yet yee teach That many actions done by Infidels are not finne In the Scriptures it is expresly written That if any Brother haue a wife that beleeueth not if she be content to dwell with him hee should not forsake her and if any woman haue an vnbeleeuing husband who is content to dwell with her shee should not forsake him 1 Cor 7. 12 13. Yet yee teach That a beleeuing brother may put away his vnbeleeuing wife though she be content to dwell with him and a beleeuing woman may put away her vnbeleeuing husband though he be content to dwell with her Yea ye teach That the vnbeleeuing partie may not continue with the vnbeleeuing They must part companie Pa. Indeed I read in Binnius that Licet in principie nascentis Ecclesiâ— erat licitum post susceptam sidem virum fidelem ab vxore infideli non discedere vel contra sed eandem in domo commerciâ— manere vt constat ex Paulo 1 Cor. 7. propter spem conuersionis alterius tamen ab hinc 800. annis Ecclesia contrarium prâ—cepit siâ—que lege consuetudine vsu introductum est vt fidelis non maneat cum inâ—iâ—eli Though in the Prime age of the Church it was lawfull for the beleeuer to continue in the same house and fellowship with the vnbeleeuer not to make a separation in hope the beleeuing partie might conuert the vnbeleeuing yet the Church about eight hundred yeares agoe gaue commandement to the contrary So that now partly by vertue of a law partly by custome it is generally receiued That the beleeuing partie may not continue with the vnbeleeuing And to confesse the whole truth I read that Father Gaspar in India hauing baptized an honourable Indian Ladie when her husband made great meanes to haue her againe being desired to deliuer his opinion in a Councell held about that matter answered roundly That they ought not to giue holy things to dogs nor the persons of such as praise God vnto beasts Wherevpon it was concluded Her husband should not haue her againe Shee should bee married to another Pro. In the Scripture it is expresly written Defraud not one another except it bee with consent for a time that you may giue your selues to Fasting and Praier 1 Cor. 7. 5. Yet ye teach A married man may goe in pilgrimage euen to Ierusalem without his wiues consent Pa. I grant Innocentius the third decreed so vpon a speciall occasion but I know not whether that Decree stand in force now But proceed Pro. In the Scripture it is expresly written That he who cannot abstaine should marrie because it is better to marrie then to burne 1 Cor. 7. 9. Yet yee teach That some such as your Priests and Monkes may not marrie though they burne In the Scripture it is expresly written That it is a shame for a woman to bee shauen 1 Cor. 11. 6. Yet your Nunnes are shorne In the Scripture it is expresly written That Christians should praise God in their assenblies by singing Coloss 3. 16. Yet ye will not allow them to sing in their assemblies And this is confessed by your Binnius for Vt â—ideles in suis conuentibus Psalmis hymnis alternatim corde simul ore decan at is Deum landent a Paulo ad Coloss cap. 3. ad Eph. cap. 5. praeceptum esse fatâ—mur Sed dum olim vnà cum clericis etiam popolus promiscuè cantareâ— imper itiâ Canentium aliquando accidebat vt ij quorum vox inculta erat aut absona Harmonicum illum Ecclesiasticâ— dignitati congruentem concentum planè corrumperent Ad boâ— ergo incommodum a cantu religioso tollendum Ecclesiast institut hisce optimè prouisum est ne praeter certâ—s ad hoc opus ascrâ—ptes al ij in Ecclesia psallerent Wee confesse saith he Saint Paul commanded Christians to sing in their assemblies but because it fell out that some who had no skill in singing sung with other who had skill they marred the Musicke it was very well prouided by Ecclesiasticall Institutions That onely certaine Singing men and Quoristers should sing in Church assemblies In the Scripture wee read expresly That praiers should be conceiued in knowne languages 1. Cor. 14. Yet ye like not of that A Parisian Doctor tells vs Et si Apostolus linguâ intellect â preces velit celebrari tamen sanctam Ecclesiam iustissimis de causis contra statuisse That though the Apostle thought good praier should bee in knowne languages yet your Church vpon good reason hath decreed the contrarie In the Scripture wee read expresly That the vnlearned should say Amen at the end of praiers 1 Cor. 14. 16. which they did euen Ab initio nascentis Ecclesiae from the Apostles time as Dorantes conconfesseth Yet by your Religion The Clerke of the Parish only is to say Amen at the end of praiers In the Scripture it is expresly written That he is cursed who abideth not in all things which are written in the Law to doe them Gal. 3. 10. Yet yee teaching That some sinnes are pardonable of their owne nature must needs bee thought to teach by necessarie consequence That euerie such man is not cursed In the Scripture it is expresly written Euery man shall beare his owne burthen Galat. 6. 5. Yet yee teach That one man may beare anothers burthen for if one be enioined to fast in part of Penance another may fast for him In the Scripture it is expresly written That the Mediator betweene God and man is one and he is Christ Iesus 1 Tim. 2. 5. Yet yee generally teach That there are many mediators betweene God and man moe then Christ Iesus Pa. That is our generall doctrine I grant Yet there are among vs who teach Sanctos Angelos homines non dicendos esse mediatores Dei hominum sed potius mediatores ad mediatorem The holy Men and Angells are not to bee reputed mediators betweene God and man but rather mediators betweene the Mediator Yea some of vs simply denie that Saints be Mediators Vniuer salis Ecclesia Sanâ—tos colit sed non vt mediatores The Catholike Church worshippeth Saints but not as Mediators â—aith Viruesius Prot. That doctrine is as false as the other but it sufficeth mee that your ordinarie doctrine is proued to be contrarie to expresse Scripture I will passe to another instance By expresse Scripture married men may be made Bishops 1 Tim. 3. 2. Yet yee teach Married men may not be made