any Father or Councell for the space of 600. yeares after Christ to proue any of those points named in that chalenge not that he made Fathers or Councels the rule of his faith but rather affirmeth with Augustine Sancta Scriptura nostrae doctrinae regulam De bono viduit cap. 1. The holy scripture pitcheth the rule of our doctrine Rom. 1. 16. figit and if he had found either in Fathers or Councels any thing swaruing from this rule he would haue forsaken them and cleaued to the Scriptures as he hath told you in his learned Apologie We know that the Gospell of Iesus Christ is the power of God vnto saluation and that therein consisteth eternall life And as Paul warneth vs we do not heare no Gal. 1. 8. not an Angel of God though he come from heauen if he go about to pull vs from any part of this Doctrine Secondly you say the Church of England continueth their memorie in the Kalendar as it doth of the blessed Apostles c. What meane you so to ouer-reach doth the Church of England put no difference between them and the Apostles for so much you would imply and must or else it comes too short of your purpose The Church of England preserueth their memorie as of godly and painefull men that bestowed themselues to serue the Church of God but yet it doth not lift them aboue the degree of men and therefore doth not exempt them from erring nor their writings from errors which immunitie is proper to the Scriptures inspired of God and cannot be ascribed to any writings of men neuer so godly or learned so long as they are written onely by a priâ—at spirit Neither is euery teacher that faileth in some point of truth to be condemned as a false teacher much lesse as an heretike and therefore it may be doubted and denied that all that the Fathers of those times haue written is true and yet they not reputed either as heretikes or false teachers Thirdly you say No Protestant you thinke dare say that they are damned in hell No verily and yet you picking out those errors which vnto them were veniall because they built vpon the foundation which is Iesus Christ alone and making them principles of your faith and religion and laying them indeed as another foundation besides Christ may be damned in so doing except you repent Fourthly Most sure you say you are that any of reason ought rather to relie his saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ theu vpon such as liue now and are partiall in their owne cause Men of reason in matters of reason may relie vpon men But men of faith in matters of saluation wil relie only vpon Christ the Author finisher and foundation of our faith the Heb. 12. 2 1 Cor. 3. 11. Heb. 2 10. 1 Tim. 2. 5. Act. 7. 37. Iohn 14. 6. Prince and Mediat or of our saluation the only undoubted Prophet and teacher of the true and vndoubted way vnto eternall life in a word the onely way the onely truth the onely life But see with what cunning you deale Your simple sheepe must relie their saluation vpon those Fathers who those Fathers were what they wrote and how they shall vnderstand them you must be their interpreters So in effect they must relie their saluation vpon you which is against your owne rule For you liue now and are iustly to be supposed partiall in your owne cause Againe in this your comparison of persons vpon whom we ought rather to relie our faith marke how slily you shut out Christ and his word and seeke to cast an imputation vpon the Protestants that they teach men to rely their faith vpon them which is as far from them as it is from you to teach your Disciples to relie their faith vpon Christ and his word No no we counsell the faithfull as Christ our Master doth to search the Scriptures and with the Apostle to Iohn 5. 39. build their faith vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Eph 2. 20. whereof Iesus Christ is the head and corner stone Lastly God open your eies to acknowledge the strength of truth which out of your owne mouth beareth witnes against your selfe you say that men ought rather to relie their saluation vpon them that liued so neere Christ Ought not then all faithfull men most of all to relie their saluation vppon them that liued neerest vnto Christ And who liued neerer him then the holie Apostles and Euangelistes Or what writinges came more immediatly from him then theirs especially considering that these were chosen by him selfe to be his witnesses vnto all the ends of the world and Act. 1. 8. Eph. 4. 13 vnto the end of the world by the writings inspired of God Wherefore that you may see how willing we are to accorde with you in the truth we confesse and graunt that faithfull men ought to relie their saluation rather vpon Psal 19. 4. Rom. 10. 18. those that saw the Lord Iesus Christ and were his witnesses and haue stretched out the line of their writinges to the worlds end theÌ„ vpon any or all that haue beene since whether they be Councels Popes Bishops or Doctors of what place holines or learning soeuer Thus forcibly haue you proued your Proposition that whatsoeuer the fathers of the first 600. years wrot is thetrue faith for that must be the extent of your proposition or else it will not serue your turne the best and strongest part of your proofe which you haue set in the last place makes most against your selfe as hath bin shewed Now then let vs come to your Assumption PAPIST But as certaine it is that they were of our religion and not of the Protestants which is so euident that no man which peruseth their works can make anie doubt thereof and to giue an instance Saint Austen that liued 1200. yeares agoe and was so wonderfull for learning that happilie since the Apostles time the world had neuer his like one whome the Protestantes also soeme most to admire and like of and this ancient holie and learned Father beleeued and taught them yea and the whole Church of his time aâ— we beleeue teach now If any maÌ„ make doubt hereof let him read his 22. book and 8. chap. De ciuitate Dei he shal find as much as I affirme concerning prayer to Saints reuerence to Relikes and Pilgrimage to holie places three of the most odious points as they thinke in all our religion PROTESTANT To proue that the Fathers of the first 600. were of your religion and not of the Protestants you tell vs that one of them S. Augustine was so Doth this proue that all were so Next how proue you that Saint Augustine was so because as you pretend he held some points of your religion as Praier to Saints reuerence to Relikes Pilgrimage to holie places praier for the dead Do these points coÌ„prehend al your religion Againe may it not
be that Augustine being a man erred in some points and you make choice of those his errors as most suitable to your religioÌ„ yet otherwise Augustine coÌ„firme the Protestants religion by his testimonie as indeed he doth Such force is in your forcible reasons But let vs see how you proue that Augustine was of your religion in the three points aboue named Praier to Saints reuerence to relikes and pilgrimage to holie places you referre him that doubteth hereof to his 22. booke and 8 chap. De ciuitate Dei Where in your sense we finde not one of these and some not at all No one word in all that chapter of praying to Satuts and least as you do any man should falsly so conceiue Augustine in the 10. chapter following where he speaketh of the same matter still giueth this expresse caueat Nos martiribus nostris non templasicut Dijs c. We build no temples to our Martyrs as vnto Gods but memories or monuments as vnto dead men whose spirits liue with God neither doe we there erect alters vpon which we may sacrifice to the Martyrs but we offer sacrifice to God onelie the Martyrs God and ours at the which sacrifice as men of God who in his confession haue ouercome the world in their place and order they are named yet are they not prayed vnto by the Priest that sacrificeth What could be more plainly spoken against praier to Saints and who but a Papist would haue alledged Augustine for praier to Saints who hath so expresly gainesaid it Reuerent vse of the Relikes of Martyrs by honestly laying vp their bones and continuing their memories Augustine there acknowledgeth but of Popish reuerence to Relikes by kneeling kissing or trust in them Augustin hath not a syllable nay he sheweth plainly in the last words of that chap that the faith and trust of Christian was not in the Martyrs but in Christ for whom the Martyrs and namelie Stephen shed his bloud Of resorting to the memories of Martyrs Augustine there speaketh but in what sort It pleased God for confirmation of that faith wherein the Martyrs died at their memories to do many miracles where God lifted vp the signe of his power thither the faithfull resorted what is this to your Popish Pilgrimage to Relikes Shrines whereof there is now no certainty whose they were nor any miracles wrought by the power of God where they are and if the true Relikes of true Martyrs were there yet to suppose more holines there or more ready acceptaÌ„ce with God or accesse vnto him there then in other places is contrary to the expresse rule of our Sauiour Christ in the 4. of Iohn wherefore Iohn 4. 21. 23. the cause of such resort now ceassing and being indeed not needfull as Augustine in the entrance of that chapter saith that before the world did beleeue Miracles were necessarie that the worlde might beleeue but now whosoeuer inquireth after strange wonders that he maie beleeue is himselfe a strange wonder who when the world beleeueth himselfe beleeueth not The cause I say ceasing the effect ceaseth as when God left to sende downe Manna the people gaue ouer looking after it neither did the godly Israelites looke any longer to the brasen serpent then while it was erected by Gods appointment for them to looke on that they might bee healed To conclude for Prayer to Saints reuorence to Relikes Popish Ios 5. 12. pilgrimage to holy places in your sense and as you practise them Augustin in al that chapter hath not one word Let Numb 21. 8 9. vs now see how happie you are in the rest that speede so ill in these PAPIST Againe the cause is so cleere that our Aduersaries do confesse it as might be shewed in manie questions two or three will I speake of Caluine cannot denie but that blessed Monica S. Augustines Inst lib. 3. cap. 5. Sec. 10. mother desired to haue her soule praied for that her son satisfied her request accordingly These be his words Augustine in his book of CoÌ„fessions telleth how that his mother Monica earnestly requested to be remembred at the Altar at such times as the mysteries were in celebrating a doating request which her sonne did not examine according to the rule of Scripture and a little before in the same place thus whereas my aduersaries quoth he obiect against me that it was a receiued custome 1300. yeares past to pray for the deade I likewise demande of them what worde of God what reuelation what example they had so to do out of which words we see how hee confesseth that the Primitiue Church beleeued as we do about Praier for the dead which is the thing that here I intend to proue And though malapertlie he contemneth them all as though forsooth they wanted the word of God yet what man of reason and iudgment can thinke that they lacked sufficient warrant for that their beleefe and common practise whatsoeuer he saith to the contrarie PROTESTANT Your Aduersaries do confesse that Augustine did fauour allow some kind of praier for the dead but your aduersaries deny that Augustine allowed praier for the dead as now the Popish Church doth hold and teach it For first touching Purgatory Augustine resolueth not certainly whether there be any or no the summe of that he saith comes to no more De ciu Dei lib. 21. cap. 26. then this I reproue it not because peraduenture it is true or if he do resolue any thing it is quite against it as there is no middle place for anie that he may be any where but with the diuel De pen. merit remiss that is not with Christ Againe The first place the faith of Catholikes by diuine authoritie beleeueth to be the kingdome of heauen The second hel Of any third we are vtterly ignorant nay we caÌ„not Hypognost lib. 5 find it in the holie scriptures your popish praiers for the dead supposing that there is a Purgatorie either Augustines praier for the dead was another matter then your Popish praier to wit a well wishing to them out of the charity of the liuing not amending the condition of the dead but testifying the hope that the liuing faithfull haue of that mercy which the dead in the Lord find with him expressed by this wishing praier so he affirmeth in his praier for his mother Monica And I beleeue that thou hast alreadie done that which I aske of Conses lib. 9. cap. 13. thee but o Lord approue the voluntaries or vvishes of my mouth or else Augustine had no better resolutioÌ„ touching this prayer then he had touching Purgatorie which is none at all as appeared by the slender proofe he makes thereof aledging only the book of Macchabees not allowed of the auncients for Canonical scripture as not greatly trusting to that flying De cura promâ—r cap. to the authority of long continued custome and he is so doubtfull of the matter that he dare not
time and is far from the largenesse of the whole church of Christ Your third reason is Then were it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth Let vs also bring this reason into forme The pillar and ground of truth cannot erre The Church is the pillar and ground of truth Therefore the Church cannot erre First what is this to generall Councels which are not that church which S. Paul calleth the pillar and ground of truth but at the best onely some part of it that church is the house of the liuing God which extends it selfe more largely both in regard of persons and times then to the number assembled in some generall councels in some times of the church Whereby it commeth to passe that as before hath beene noted out of Augustine generall councels haue corrected prouinciall and the later generall councels haue corrected the former Wherefore some generall councell or councels may erre and yet the church remain still the pillar and ground of truth Secondly the Church is called the pillar and ground of truth as hath bene shewed because the Oracles of God are committed vnto it which the church keepeth faithfully to the worlds end By which as by an vndoubted marke the true Church is knowne from the false For the false church casteth away and corrupteth the Scriptures neither doth vphold and beare vp the truth by the preaching of the Gospell as is manifestly seene in the Apostaticall church of Rome Contrariwise the true church conserueth the records of Gods truth and preacheth the doctrine of the holy Scripture for the gathering of the Saints and the edifying Ephes 4. 12. Mal. 2. 7. of it selfe Howbeit as the Priest whose lips should preserue knowledge and at whose mouth they should inquire the law may sometimes faile in the knowledge and shewing of the law So the visible church may in some points of truth hold erroneous opinions and yet continue still the pillar and ground of truth to wit of that truth which is necessarie to saluation in the true knowledge and custodie whereof the true Church shall neuer deceiue nor be deceiued The Apostles and Disciples of our Sauiour Christ at the time of his ascention were the onely true visible church of Christ who vndoubtedly were the pillar and ground of 1. Tim. 6. 3. truth holding fast the foundation which is Iesus Christ and keeping the wholesome word which is according to godlinesse Act. 1. 6 yet did they erre in the matter of restoring the kingdome to Israel Thirdly as before hath bene shewed out of Chrysostome The truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church For as Augustine August 〈◊〉 166. faith to the Donatists In the Scriptures we haue learned Christ In the Scriptures vve haue learned the Church Vnderstanding therefore pillar ground or firmament for the strength stay or foundation the truth is the strength stay and foundation of the church which is built vpon the foundation of the Eph. 2. 20. Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone But the church is the pillar and ground of truth as Galath 29. Cephas lamet and Iohn were counted to bee pillars because by their preaching the Gospel was greatly vpheld Fundatores Ecclesiae erant sustentatores They were founders of the Church and vpholders as Haymâ— noteth out of Augustine So the Church layeth the foundation of truth and beareth vp the truth by confessing and preaching Inqua solu as Primasius noteth nunc veritas stat firmata que solatotum edificium sustinet veritatis that is In vvhich alone the truth novv standeth grounded and which alone beareth vp the vvhole building of truth Not that the church is as Ladie ouer the truth but as an handmaide to the truth Therefore as Peter being a pillar was yet subiect to error so the church is not free from all error although it be the pillar and ground of truth The Protestants therefore that embrace that truth which the true church teacheth according to the Scriptures haue the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Papists that build vpon variable and vncertaine definitions of men not examining them by the infallible and cleere doctrine of the Scriptures PAPIST Fiftly S. Peter saith that no prophecie of Scripture is made by 2. Pet. 1. 20. priuate interpretation Priuate interpretation 〈◊〉 haue none seeing vve interpret them according to that sense vvhich consent of antiquitie and the authoritie of Gods Church deliuereth and the Protestants haue none but priuate seeing their doctrine is that euerie one must examine by the touchstone of the Scriptures vvhat others do teach and so to admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not to the vvord of God vvhich if it be not priuate interpretation there can be none sound in the world For vvhat can be more priuate then for euerie priuate vnlearned artificer to make himselfe iudge ouer all and to sentence this mans doctrine as agreeable to Gods vvord and to reiect the common opinion of manie more yea though of ancient Fathers and generall Councels as contrarie to sacred Scripture and yet this is common amongst our aduersaries as daily experience informeth vs. PROTESTANT Priuate interpretation in this place of Peter is opposed to the interpretation of the spirit as in the wordes plainely appeareth and not one mans interpretations to manie mens as you pretend For all mens interpretation if it be humane comming of their owne sense and not taught by the Spirit is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their owne which you call priuate The gift of interpretation as other spirituall gists is of the spirit 1. Cor 13. 10. Luke 24. 45. of God who openeth the hearts of men to vnderstand the scriptures As he opened the heart of Lydia For otherwise as the Act. 1â— 14. veile remaining vpon the hearts of the Iewes they could not see into the end of the law but vvhen the vâ—â—le vv is taken away 2. Cor. 3. 16. from their hearts then by a right vnderstanding of the Scriptures they were conuerred vnto Christ So while the vaile of carnall wisedome which is foolishnesse vvith God is 1. Cor. 1 10. Rom. 8. 7. 1. Cor. 2. 24. vpon the hearts of men they cannot discerne the wisedome of God reuealed in the Scriptures For the Scripture and the true sense thereof is spiritually discerned and onely the Ioh. 6. 45. spirituall man discerneth all things By this spirit are all that beleeue taught of God and euerie man that hath heard and learned of the Father commeth vnto Christ This spirit by the Act. 8. ministerie of Philip led the Eunuch to the true sense of the Prophet Esay Neither Philip nor any of the disciples could giue him the spirit of discerning Neque enim saith Augustine De Trinit lib. 15. cap. 26. aliquis discipuloruns eâ—as dedit spiritum Sanctum For none of his disciples gaue the holy Ghost Neither
also agreed that it must beare such a sense as may stand with the scripture and the analogie of faith then although we differ about the proper sense of the words yet differ we not about any matter of Faith as you do about originall sinne PAPIST Seeing therefore the Church of Christ continueth visible for â—uer as ours hath done and not theirs wee haue the auncient Fathers for patrones of our cause they be destitute of all antiquitie we haue the truth in many points according to their owne confessione and they consequentlie falshood wee haue the Scriptures and their true interpretation they onelie the bare name and priuate erroneous exposition I conclude that whosoeuer will be saued must not heare them but embrace our old Catholike Apostolike faith PROTESTANT The persons of all the members of the Church of Christ as men haue beene in their times visible are and shall be to the worlds end they haue beene also generally to some of their fellow members visiblie in their times as members of the body of Christ howbeit the visibility of Churches established and in their assemblies worshipping God in the word Sacraments and prayer they haue often wanted as in the Egyptian captiuitie the daies of Elias the captiuitie of Babylon the dispersion caused by Sauls persecution and vnder the ouer-spreading tyrannie of the Romish Antichrist driuing the woman that brought foorth the man-childe into Reuel 12. 13. 14 the wildernesse into a pâ—â—e prepared for her of God During which captiuitie of the Church in seuerall times either heathenish idolatry as in Egypt or Church idolatry as the golden calues and the seruice of Baal before and in the daies of Elias or carnal worship as among the Iewes in the dispersion afore-saide or meere Atheisme as vnder Sanballat and Tobijah or the mysterie of iniquity vnder the shew of pseudochristianitie as in the Apostasie of Antichrist hath borne the sway in the world as the onely Religion Such is the visibility of your Romish apostafie like the visibility of Ierobâ—ams calues of Baals Church of the Scribes and Pharisies and in pretence to build with the Iâ—wes that is the true Church of Christ semblant to Sanballat and Tobijah or at the beâ—â— to Eliashab their friend In this visibility you haue set foorth many goodly Pageants to dazell the eies of all those in whoÌ„ â—he God of this world hath blinded their eiâ—s that the light of the 2 Cor. 4. 3. 4. glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them as the state of Popes and Cardinals the Babylonish magnificence of your temples beset with sumptuous idols the stage play of your Masse with your whole Antichristian tyrannie which you haue vaunted to the world as the harlot her bedecked bed Prou. 7. 15. 17. with ornaments carpets and layes of Egypt perfumed with Mirrhe Aloes and Cinamon and like vnto the picture of Apoc. 17. 3. 4. 5. your Church the mother of whoredomes and abhominations that sitteth vpon a scarlet coloured beast and is arrayed in purple and scarlet and guided with gold and precious stones and pearles and hath a cup of gold in her hand full of abhominations and filthinesse of her fornications Of such visibility wee giue you leaue to boast and reioyce that wee haue no part with you in your glory least wee should also haue part with you in your plagues And albeit GOD hath graunted more visibility to our Churches then you can indure with patience to behold yet make wee not out of such visibility any demonstration that our Church is the true Church That faith that worship which by open confession and practise was visible in our Sauiour Christ and his blessed Apostles which in their holy writings inspired of God they haue deliuered to be seene read and vnderstood to be held and obserued of all the true Church of God is a demonstratiue and infallible visibility which wheresoeuer it is to be seene and discerned prooueth and conuinceth that they are the Church of Christ This is the onely visibility wherby the true Church is to be discerned and knowen which we haue often prooued and we hope is manifest to all mens consciences to be found in our Church and you shall neuer be able while the world standeth to make any sound proofe that your Church hath any such visibilitie but manifestly the contrary What patronage the auncient Fathers lend vnto your cause hath beene before shewed where you alleadged anie thing out of them and often hath beene further in all the fundamentall points wherein you â— dissent from vs and from the truth You imitate some rites twice dead and buried since they vsed them you are confident to affirme some things whereof they doubted you take vp their errors for principles of your faith you abuse and peruert their words and phrases to a contrarie meaning and in these onely as touching your Popish religion you follow the Fathers but their indicious testimonies touching the fundameÌ„tall points of Doctrine as originall sinne and the fruit therof concupiscence free will instification the vse of good workes the Sacraments and diuerse other points you will not see or else you peruert as the instable doe the Scriptures to their owne destruction 2. Pet. 3. 16. Compare what they write in one place with that which they write in another note the occasion marke the end discerne the aduersarie they haue to deale with consider the straine of their moued affections acknowledge their tropes and figures of speech you shall finde the Fathers to yeeld you but small helpe and to be but slender patrones of your apostasie on the contrary you shall perceiue that as wee haue the eldest antiquity for proofe whereof we cite the records of Scripture so haue wee the body of all consequent antiquity in all matters of faith touching the Deitie the Trinitie prouidence touching Christ his person natures offices mediation and our redemption by him touching the holie Ghost and his operation in the Church â—ouching the Catholike Church the communion of Saints and all necessarie parts thereof touching remission of sinnes touching the resurrection and eternall life In other matters if some where we varie from the Fathers as they varied one from another and some of them from themselues we haâ—e their leaues I haue before shewed you what difference Cont. Iulian. Pelag. lib 1. Augustine makes betweene Fundamenta fides Alia de quibus doctrissimi atque optimi Catholicae regulae defensores salua fidei compage non consonant betweene the Foundations of faith and other pointes whereabout the learned stayd best defenders of the Catholike rule doe not agree yelw â—hout impeachment to the frame of faith To your vaine pretence of our consent in any point of your Popish faith enough hath beene said before As for the Scriptures you haue them indeene and you keepe them so close that neither your selues wil search them as you ought nor suffer those that wold You banish the
elder then this renewed face of our churches will that proue any aduantage for you Was not the Apostasie of Israel elder then the protestation of Elias against 1. King 18. them much more then the returne of many out of Israel in the dayes of Hezekiah Was not the Pharisaicall synagogue 2. Chron. 30. before the preaching of Christ before the church which he gathered by his preaching Boast not therefore of what standing your Antichristian tyranny is but tell vs if you can of what truth your religion is Truth we graunt you is most ancient but error also is often very ancient and is called by Angustine Vetustissima falsit as most ancient falshood and Epist 166. when the truth after a long time of suppression commeth to the light againe in the eyes of them that iudge by the outward appearance error seemeth elder then the truth Wherfore let vs clime aboue these middle antiquities which may be common both to truth and error and let vs come to the eldest and most ancient times of the Church and there behold the true and vndisguised face of the auncientest and truest Church Let vs search the Scriptures which onely conteine the most infallible description of the true Church If you shun this light say it is because there is no truth in Ioh. 3. 19. 20. 21. you yea because your workes are euill and you feare to come to the light least it should be manifest that you walke in the truth PAPIST Secondlie this is to make your cursed Synagogue of the Iewes that crucified the Some of God and wickedlie cried out His bloud be vpon vs and our children for more glorious then Christs Church for which he shed his bloud and praied so inst antlie to his father for as they now be in manie parts of the world so can they shew where they haue remained preached their religion for all these 1600 yeares and to say that Christs Church is inferior to the Iewish Synagogue is so blasphemous as Christian eares should not endure to heare PROTESANT Did Christ shed his bloud to make his Church glorious and eminent in worldly prosperity like to the strumpet of Rome that sittes vpon many waters and hath rule ouer many Reuel 17. 1. people yea ouer Kings and princes No no his kingdome is not of this world By many tribulations must the Ioh. 18. 36. Act. 14. 22. Rom. 8. 17. Ioh. 16. 33. 2. Tim. 2. 12. Hebr. 12. 8. Church of Christ enter into the kingdome of heauen It must bee comforted to his suffering that it may be comforted to his glory If it suffer with him it shall raigne with him In the worlde it shall haue trouble but in him only peace All that are not pertakers of chastismens are bastards and not sonnes Againe did Christ by his instant prayer to his Father request that his Church might treade on the necks of Emrours ride on a stately sâ—eed and Kings to hold the stirrop and going by on foot to lead the Popes horse by the bridle Or that they might â—â—â—eample patrimonies large seigniories generall command ouer king and key sar yea power of life and death ouer euery creature and to translate kingdomes and to turne the world vpside-downe at their pleasure Where is this prayer contained why had not Christ himselfe nor any of his Apostles the benefite of it why was the primitiue church so washed by horrible persecutions Christ neuer made any such prayer he prayed that his Church might be preserued not altogether from but in Iohn 17. 15 temptations not that the worldly powers might not annoy the bodies of his Saints but that their soules might be kept from euill not that they might haue their heauen in this world but that they might bee with him where he is and see his Vers 24 glory Againe was Christ inferior to the Iewes when they crucified him or Stephen when they stoned him to death or Iames when Herod cut off his head or Peter when he bound him in prison what saith the scripture For thy sake Acts. 7. 12 we are killed all the day long and we are counted as sheepe for the slaughter Neuerthelesse in all these things we are more then Psal 44. 23. Rom. 8. 36. 37 conquerors through him that loued vs. Surely by Romish Logicke and and Romish diuinitie farre more happy and glorious was the condition of Pilat the priestes and accursed Iewes that cried Crucifie him crucifie him then of poore Christ O you that are bewitched and inchanted by these Luk. 23. 21. Baby lonish charmes will you be led by such guides who know not the beginnings of Christian religion If any will be my Disciple let him take vp his crosse and follow me will you Math. 16. 24 thinke that such can guide you to heauen whose God is the world whose glory is shame which minde earthly things With them no outward prosperity no Church no earthly kingdome no Church no scarlet coloured beast Phil. 3. 19. no triple crowned Pope no hatted Cardinals no mirred Bishops no Church But see the singular boldnesse of this popish proctor ioyned with singular folly The cursed Iewes can bring as far fetcht antiquicy to proue their Synagoue to bee the true Church as the Papists can for theirs If such antiquity can make you Papists why may it not as well make you Iewes This forcible Reasoner prescribeth 1600 yeares for the Papacie not a yeare or a day lesse doth hee allowe to the Iewish Synagogue from whence I thus reason That which by Popish confession belongs as well to the cursed Iewes as to the Papists that can neuer proue the Popish Synagogne to be the Catholique and true Church Antiquitie of 1600 yeares belongs as much to the cursed Iewes as to the Papists as this plaine Reasoner confesseth Therefore antiquitie of 1600 yeares can neuer proue the Popish Synagogue to be the catholike and true Church PAPIST That our Church hath continued all this while is as certaine for to omit other Prouinces and Kingdomes where it hath beene openlie knowen and not to speake howe wee can shew the continuall succession of Bisops in diuerse places of Christendom as Rheimes Padua Leigh and from the Apostles times to these our daies we can heere in our country proue the continuance of our religion for these 1600 yeares euen from the time of Saint Gregorie the great Pope of Rome who sent hither Saint Austen that conuerted vs Englishmen froÌ„ Paganisme and Idolatry to the faith of Christ as our owne histories teach and from Saint Gregorie we can ascend by the current streame of Popes his predecessors to Saint Peter and Christ himselfe For that it was our Catholike religion which was then brought in by Saint Austen no doubt caÌ„ be made for our chronicles say so much the ruines of so many ancieÌ„t Abbies latelie suppressed do aboundantly testifie the same none of reason or reading will denie it
before in the daies of Helkias the Priest But chuse you whether you will cease your wrangling about mens names or not and be it knowen to you that we will search the scriptures in which alone wee beleeue to Iohn 5. 39. haue eternall life and which only beare vnto vs infallible witnes of Christ and of all true Religion necessarie to saluation How beit were your succession any thing worth to the finding out of truth when or how shall it be agreed whether Liuus or Clemens succeeded Peter whether Cletus and Anacletus be one man or if they be two which is the first or which must be put out of the succession or whether Clemens be before them or either of them for these vncertainties are in the highest roundes of this your ladder of succession Tell vs whether Pope Ioaue haue not made a foule cracke in your succession or what we shall make of your 30. Schismes whereof the twentie ninth continued the space of 50 yeares together first with two Popes at once then with three vntil the Councell of Constance remoued them all three and set vp Martin 5. since your Church representatiue in the councel iudged against them al three may we not rightly iudge that your succesion was quite broken off and none of these 3 nor they to whom they succeeded during that Schisme were true successors of Peter How euer it be make your succession as strong as you can Except Cum successione Episcopatus With the succession of the Chaire they haue receiued Veritatis charisma certū the vndoubted Iren lib. 4. cap. 43. gift of truth we make no reckoning of it As for your Austen who you say conuerted vs Englishmen it is well knowen that this Iland had receiued the faith long before Austen was borne in the daies of Kinge Lucius and euen at that time had true religion in better order in more sincerity then Austen himself except there were any more sincerity in his doctrine then in his superstitious and vaineglorious ceremonies vpon which together with your cloysters and dennes God in his mercie hath brought the confusion of Babel as appeareth this day and shall do we trust more and more PAPIST Out of this reason maie one quicklie learne that all points of our religiō be most true as praying to Saints Purgatory Pardons the Real presence Confession of sinnes though oach one knowe not howe to defende them nor perceiue vpon what groundes they stand for seeing we haue now prooued that our Church is the true Church of Christ consequently we are to beleeue that which it teacheth because she cannot erre in matters of faith for if shee could then might we as well be damned being members of the true Church of Christ as members of the false and not for a wicked life but for a wrong beleefe which cannot be and to free vs from all such doubtes Saint Paul affirmeth that the Church is the piller and ground of truth This ought to be a great comfort to all 1 Tim. 3. 15. vnlearned Catholikes that cannot enter into the deepe misteries of Christian religion PROTESTANT No doubt you must needs proue a forcible Reasoner that out of one sophisticall Syllogisme full of equiuocation as hath beene shewed from a reason pretended of the continuance of the Church inuifible reputation as you say for the space of 1600. yeares which by your owne confession will serue the Iewish synagogue as well as your supposed Church yet as if you had stricken the matter dead presume out of hand that all is proued You haue now proued that your Church is the true Church of Christ They that will bee caried away with such proofes it skils not greatly of what Church they be They surely dote vpon the Romish harlot and follow her for blinde loue and not for reason But let vs further examine how forcibly you build vpon this sandie foundation If your Church be the true Church then all must be beleeued that she teacheth And therefore praying to Saints Purgatory Pardons c. For she cannot erre in matters of faith were not the Churches of Galathia true Churches Is not the bringing in of Circumcision to be ioyned with faith in Christ as necessary to Gal. 1. 6. saluation an error in matter of faith Did not the Galathians erre in that point in so much that the Apostle reproues them as those that had remoued to another Gospell If the members of a true church ought to beleeue all that the church teacheth them who could blame the Galathians in this point yet Paul spares not to call them foolish Againe were not the Apostles the true Church yet did they erre euen after Christs resurrection not onely before the receiuing of the holy Ghost but after also and that in matter of faith before the holy Ghost came downe they Act. 1. 6. dreamed of restoring the externall kingdome of Israel and that by Christ After they had receiued the holy Ghost Act. 10. 14. Peter iudged some meates vncleane and was doubtfull of going into the vncircumcised and eating with them vntill he was better informed by an heauenly vision Neither was this error proper to him alone and yet had he bene Pastor of Pastors and the highest Bishop in the Church from whose lippes all truth was to be receiued how could the Church haue bene free from this error for as Gregory saith Epist lib. 6. epist 34. Si vnus Episcopus vocatur vniuersalis vniuersa Ecclesiacorruit Si vnus vniuersus cadit That is If one Bishop be called vniuersall the whole Church is ruinated if that one vniuersall do fall but common to all the rest of the Apostles as appeareth both in that he was called to an account before the Apostles Act. 11. 3. and the Church for entring in vnto Cornelius and alleaging his warrant both by vision and speciall oracle satisfied them so as they now first came to discerne that God vnto the Gentiles also had graunted repentance vnto life and Vers 18. therefore held their peace and glorified God and also in that when some came from Iames he withdrew himselfe from Gal. 2. 12. the Gentiles which he would not haue done if the true Church had not as then bene vnsetled in this point of faith That which befell vnto the Apostolike church may much more befall vnto the church of Rome as the like hath done vnto many other churches and therefore it follows not because the church of Rome was once the true church that either it cannot erre or must needs continue the true church still Such braggers as you were those Rabbies that conspired against Ieremie presuming as you do that the law should not perish from the Priest nor counsell from the wise nor Ier. 18. v. 18. the word from the Prophets that is that the church could not erre but the Lord by Ezechiel tels them that build vpō that false principle that when they shall come to
seeke a vision of the Prophets then they shall find that by the iust iudgment of Ezek. 7. ver 6 God the law shal perish from the Priest and councel froÌ„ the Ancient Which at this day they all find who feed vpon the lying vanities of Popish visions being deluded by the painted vizard of the Church which you haue put vpon your faces Wherefore if you could proue your Church the true Church which you can neuer do yet should you stil come to short of prouing that you stand so much in need of that your Church cannot erre and therefore Praying to Saints Purgatorie Pardons c. must be beleeued because your Church teacheth them God grant that your seduced Clients Iere. 2. 13. may leaue these broken pits that will hold no water and haue recourse to the fountaine of liuing waters the holy scripture thereby to trie euerie spirit whether it be of God or no and not blindly beleeue euery spirit that saith Iohn 4. 1. it is of God Yea but say you If the Church maie erre in faith then might wee aswell be damned being members of the true Church as of the false that not for a wicked life but for a wrong faith which cannot be First you shewe of what force all your proofes are that you are faine so shamelesly to beg that without any proofe which all men know to be most false for is it so strange to you that a meÌ„ber of a true visible church may be daÌ„ned euen for matter of wrong beliefe Are al the members of euery true visible Churhc true and proper members of the mysticall body of Christ Know you not that Saint Paul saith to Galathians Behold I Paul say vnto euerie men that is circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing yee are abolished from Christ whosoeuer are iustified by the law yee are fallen from grace And yet they to whom he spake were members of a true visible Church Therefore the members of a true visible Church may be damned for a wrong beliefe Secondly albiet the true visible Churches may erre daÌ„nably as the church of the Iewes in condemning Christ the Arrians in denying his eternall Godhead yet the true Catholike Church which is the body of Christ cannot erre damnably nor any true member thereof and yet euery member of the militant Church may erre but not damnably for euery error is not damnable no not in matter of faith some build vpon the foundation Timber hay and stuble 1 Cor. 3. 12. c. so long as they build vpon the foundation they themselues shall be saued but shall suffer losse of their worke by the fiery triall of Gods word Confessing therefore the infirmity and ignorance euen of the true members of the true Catholike Church in this flesh which is such no one of them can haue immunity from error yet it will not followe that any true member of the Catholike Church can be damned and yet he may beleeue amisse in some points of faith God open the eies of the blinde that they may discerne your dangerous and damnable sleight You would haue all your disciples hold themselues contented only with the Coliars faith to beleeueth as the Church beleeueth althogh they know not what the Church beleeueth To the intent you may bewitch them this is your sorcerie you tell them the Church cannot erre meaning your Romish church therfore they may securly beleeue whatsoeuer you bid theÌ„ so doing shall vndoubtedly be saued A coÌ„pendious Religion promising vnto men saluation without taking any paines to know the truth of God to search the scriptures to trie the spirits and to discerne of the true faith But what saith the scripture He that beleeueth and is baptized shall be saued he that beleeueth not shall be damned And what must Mark 16. 16. they beleeue that shall be saued That which the Apostles teach what must the Apostles teach All that Christ commanded Then must euery beleeuer discerne the truth of his Matth. 28. 20. faith by the vndoubted commandement of Christ that he may haue vndoubted comfort of his owne saluation Men will not take money for currant before they haue tried it by touch and weight and will any be so desperatly foolish as to beleeue euery spirit and receiue euery doctrine not trying by the touch of scriptures and the weights of Gods sanctuarie whether it be of God or no Yea but S. Paul affirmeth that the Church is the pillar ground of truth And this ought to be a great comfort to all vnâ—earned Catholikes It ought so indeede and to the learned too that the Oracles of God are committed to his Church and there onely the sheepe of God may heare the voice of their Shepheard Howbeit the vnlearned Catholiks shall be much abused if they suppose this Church to be the supposed Church of Rome or thinke that truth is pinned vpon any Iohn 10. 27. one churches sleeue or is indefinitly committed to the whole Church without submission to the trial of scriptures What is truth the scriptures onely shew where that truth is preserued and taught there is the true Church For the Church is the pillar ground of truth By the scriptures therfore all true Catholikes must learn to know the true church and receiue the truth of the scriptures from the mouth and by the ministrie of the church but not vpon the bare and onely cred it of the church For to omit Theophilact who interpreteth truth in this place as opposit to Iewish shadows which sense may very well be followed and so you haue no shew of helpe here Chrysostome vpon the place giueth this sense Hoc est enim quod fidem continet ac praedicationemâ— quippe verit as Ecclesiae columna firmaâ—entum est This is that which keepeth faith and preaching for truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church Where you see the church ministerially keepeth faith and preacheth the word as the Pyramis in Paris did keepe the memorie of your Iesuitical parricide but in a nother sense the truth by Chrysostoms iudgmeÌ„t is the pillar and firmament of the Church And Dyonisius Carthusianus Estque columna firmamentum verit atis id est verit atem Euangelicam fortiter portat c. The pillar and ground of truth saith he that is it doth stroÌ„gly beare the truth of the gospel note the truth of the Gospel which the church hath receiued not any truth inueÌ„ted or taught by the church without or beside the Gospell Therefore out of this place we thus conclude against you The Church of God is the pillar and ground of truth that is beareth the truth by the preaching of the Gospel before men The Church of Rome is not the pillar and ground of truth for it beareth not the â—ruth before men by the preaching of the Gospell but her â—â—ue superstitions Inuentions besides the Gospell and contrary to the Gospell at praier to Saints Purgatory
signe but in Christ whom they confessed by that signe Neither was any of them euer heard to say Aue cruxspes vnie◠Hatle ô crosse our onely hope As touching the match of equalitie that you make betweene the signe of the Crosse and the Crucifixe you may well thinke that the ancient church being so long without the image of the crucifixe namely aboue 600. yeares and yet so early vsing Sexta Synod Can 82. the signe of the Crosse did acknowledge no small difference betweene the one and the other A transient signe to signifie in gesture that which the word signifieth in speech and that onely for meanes of confession differeth much from an image made to represent the Sonne of God whose Godhead no colours nor proportion can expresse whose Manhood is not the whole of his person whose nature person and suffering is sufficiently yea abundantly described in the Scriptures for all men to see and heare neither is it possible for any art to make that visible in the image of the crucifixe which is to be knowne beleeued remembred of Christ and his sufferings according to the description of his word To leaue the Scriptures follow a crucifixe is to go from the Sunne in the firmament to the signe of the sunne painted in a table To adde to the word the helpe of the crucifix is to accuse the infufficiencie of the word The signe of the Crosse had no such vse in the beginning neither hath now with vs and therefore differeth largely from the signe of the crucifixe But it is worth the marking how barely you bring into comparison first the vse of the signe of the Crosse among vs and the vse thereof in poperie Do we teach to trust in that signe Do we pray to it do we worship it do we blesse with it do we fence arme our selues with it these are your Idolatries which you slily passe ouer as if there were a like vse of the signe of the Crosse with vs and with you Papists Secondly the signe of the Crosse and the image of the crucifixe as if you did only make the image of the crucifixe historically and not to worship it When we commit idolatrie with the signe of the Crosse then compare our vse thereof with your idolatries to the image of the crucisixe Lastly remember heere also that which I spake of the former The signe of the Crosse is only an indifferent externall rite among vs It is neither principle nor second nor third nor fourth nor any point of our Religion PAPIST Fourthly in Baptisme they vse Godfathers and abrenuntiation Why not also other ceremonies namely holy Oile and Exorcisme Holy oyle Exorcisme Reade the Scriptures and as little there is for the first as the last Aske the auncient Fathers and as much is found for the last as for the first PROTESTANT In the administration of the holy Sacraments the neerer we come to the institution of Christ the more chast and incorrupt we esteeme the administration of them to be and therefore haue taken that libertie which the Church of God euer vsed no further to follow the example of former times in matter of ceremone then we do euidently see to serue for edification By which rule no doubt sundrie ceremonies of auncient time vsed afterward grew out of vse as namely in Baptisme the tasting of milke and honie with certaine other ceremonies either for come linesse or instruction taken vp in the primitiue Church which afterwards were layd downe againe as the times and growth of the Church fawe most conuenient As touching Godfathers and abrenuntiation for that the one hath a good vse as well to prouide that only the children of beleeuing parents be brought to Baptisme as also to commit the care of the infants education to men for godlinesse and sound faith approued and the other expresseth the couenant on the behalfe of the infant baptized wherewith he standeth charged the mention whereof serueth as well to call to the mindes of others before baptized what they owe to God by the couenant betweene God and them sealed in baptisme as also to enter the obligation of the infants faith and obedience whereunto as soone as his yeares admit he must know himselfe to be bound by the law of his baptisme Therfore our Church of a care that all things may be done orderly and to edification and that the end of Baptisme may be attained hath vpon good reason continued these two When you shall be able to shew vnto vs as serious profitable vse of your Exorcisme and Oyle then may we enter into consulation whether in so lawfull libertie to alter or refuse vnnecessarie ccremonies it were not much better to reason you haue so superstitiously profaned them besides the slender vse to leaue them onely to you then after so long a farewell to giue them new entertainement specially Scripture saying nothing for them and the auncient Fathers although they testifie of the vse of these as also some others by you neglected yet in matter of ceremonie allow freedome to euery Church in euery time These also are no principles of our Religion PAPIST Fiftly the booke alloweth the vse of the Surplice in their Seruice and Sacramonts vvhy then may not Copes Vestiments and Copes Vestiments such like be admitted also For no more can they shew for the one then vve for the other PROTESTANT Multitude of needlesse ceremonies is alwayes a burthen and therefore a bondage both in the yoke of obseruation and also in the taile of superstition whereunto through blindnesse and carnall deuotion men commonly fall And therefore our church though it retaine the Surplice as most remote both in the originall and perpetuall vse from your superstition and that onely for comelinesse without putting any religion in it yet both is and ought to be sparing in affecting the multitude of your theatricall or stage-like vestiments which would rather disguise then a dorne the Church of Christ And herein our church hath followed the rule of Scripture which albeit of loue and for peace it teacheth to suffer some things not necessary yet streightly warneth the church not to be intaugled againe in the yoke of boudage And so there is Scripture against many and those Gal. 5. 1. before refused more then against one and that neuer out of vse And heere againe I may not forget still to put you in mind that far it is from our church to esteeme the surplice or any vse thereof as a principle or any part of our religion PAPIST Sixtly in the Collect vpon Michaelmas day they confesse that the Angels defend and protect our life how then can they denie Praying to Saints that they know our necessities and praiers and so no reason can they alleage why we may not pray to them as well as we do to our mortall brethren PROTESTANT Protect is not in the Collect but only succour and defend For we yeeld only a ministerie to
scriptures indeede and the Protestants that do othervvise be destitute of the true sense of the vvord of God PROTESTANT The summe of this Argument is this Whatsoeuer meanes wee haue to knowe the Canonitall Scriptures the same we haue to know the true sense of them For there is equali danger in wrong expounding Scriptures and refusing them But there is no meanes to know the Canonicall Scriptures but by â—â—e authoritie of the Church For no man can prooue against Luther that Saint Iames his Epistle is Canonicall but by the authoritie of the Church and Austen Jaith I would not beleeue c. Therefore there is no meanes to know the true sense of the scriptures but by the anthority of the Church First then as before hath bin noted Augustine was much uerseene in his bookes De Doctr. Christ among so many meanes as he theresets downe to search find out the true sense of Scriptures to forget the authority of the Church which you will now haue to be the onely meanes Secondly in a sense it is true that the authority of Gods Church is a meanes to know both the Canonicall Scripture and the true sense thereof The Church of God doth neither giue being or authority to the Scriptures nor sense to the Scriptures but being taught of God in both giues witnesse of both to her owne children and euen to those that are without and by the ministrie and meanes of her testimonie they to whom the Scriptures were before vnknown begin to receiue them and they that haue receiued them attaine to the sense of them by that gift of interpretation which God hath giuen to his Church yet doth not Gods true Church set vp her authority in mens consciences to binde them without a better Teacher and of greater authority to receiue any thing at her handes for Scripture or to rest in her interpretation of Scriptures without tryall As Philip hauing testified to Nathanael We haue founde him of whom Moses did write and the Prophnts Iesus the sonne of Ioseph when Nathanael made doubt because he was of Nazareth doth not inforce his owne authority but bids him come see so the Church testifying of the Canonical scriptures of the true sense of them bids all men come and see Ioh. 1. 46. that is out of the Scriptures inspired of God by the teaching of the spirit to know the maiestie and authority of them after they haue beleeued the scriptures to be the vndoubtted word of God in them to search the true meaning of theÌ„ as Augustine teacheth both as he is before alleaged and in the very booke by you quoted for shewing how the Manichees teach how the Church teacheth thus he writeth Whatthinke you we must iudge or do but to forsake theÌ„ who inuite Contr. epist Fun. cap. 14. vs to know things certaine and after coÌ„mand vs to beleeue thinges vncertaine the very right description of the Popish church And follow theÌ„ who inuite vs first to beleeue that which yet we are not able to looke into that when we are waxen stronger in faith we may attaine to vnderstand that which we beleeue novv not men but God inwardly strengthning and enlightning our minde Wherby that former sentence of Augustine so commonly alleaged by the Papists receiues plaine interpretation Ego non crederem c. Euery word almost in the sentence hauing a speciall signification to shew that he onely acknowledgeth the churches testimony in the beginning of his conuersion to haue beene the meanes to moue him to thinke well of the scriptures Ego that is I being a Manichee hauing not yet searched the scriptures nor hauing knowen the maiesty of the Gospell Non crederâ—m that is would not haue giuen any regard vnto nor haue beene tractable to learne as the whole booke De vtilit ate credends ad Honor aâ—uÌ„ doth shew namely cap. 9. For faith he true religion vnlesse those things De vtil creden ad ionorat cap. 15. be beleeued which if a man behaue himselfe well and be worthie he may aftervvard attaine to vnderstand vvithout some great commande of authoritie can by no meanes bee vvell entred into For as he saieth in the same booke betweene mans foolishnes and the most sincere truth of God Mans vvisedome is set as a middle thing for a vvise man is to follovve God a foolissh man is to follovv a vvise man yet as Augustine there sayeth not to put his trust in men but onely in the sonne of God the sincere eternall vnchangeable wisdome of God whereunto onely we ought to sticke who for our sakes namely to become our Teacher vouch safed to take vpon him mans nature Contr. Epist Fundam cap. 5. This most sincere wisedome Contr. Epist Fundam cap. 4. he settech in the first ranke though hauing to deale with a Manichee hee saieth he will omit to speake of it as that which holdes him without any doubting in the bosome of the Catholike church whereas in all his other motiues hee onely meaneth to shew that euen only in theÌ„ he hath better hould then the Manichees haue for their heresie For otherwise he preferreth the vndoubted proofes of scripture before the authority of the catholike Church If peraduenture saith he you can finde any thing in the Gospell verie plaine for Manichees Apostleship you shall vveaken vnto me the authoritie of the Catholikes and before if so manifest truth be shovved that Cap. 4. it cannot come into doubt it ought to bee preferred before all those things by vvhich I am held in the Catholike church 3. Catholice Ecclesiae meanes hee the Catholike church of all times or rather the Catholike church of the first times who hauing receiued the Scriptures by Apostolicall testimonie deliuered them to their posterity At whose hand Augustine receiued them not vpon their onely testimony but vpon the records of the Catholike Church of the first times which the church in his time had to shewe for the Canonicall and vndoubted Scriptures What his meaning is in this behalfe let Augustine himselfe declare Beleeue saith he this booke to be Matthewes which from that time wherein Matthew himselfe liued in the flesh by course of Contr. Faustrâ— Manich. lib. 28. cap. 2. Lib. 33. cap. 9 time not interrupted the Church through certaine succession of continuance hath brought along vnto this time And against the same heretick hee vseth a very apt comparison to this purpose there haue many bookes come forth vnder the name and title of secular authors which were neuer theirs as for example many bookes vnder the name of Hippocrates that were not his How are these descried Therefore are they refused saith Augustine because either they did not agree to those writings which were manifestly knowen to be theirs or were not acknowledged in the time wherein they wrote nor were commended to posteritie by themselues or those that were most familiar with them and specially of Hippocrates his bastard
of all godly Christians that dote not vpon Popish idols the name mage either to represent God or to worship God or Saint withall is become as odious as the name Idoll and nothing diuerse from it And because the notorious idols of Poperie are in their language called images and holy images being indeede most accursed idols not without good cause did that religious Translator turne the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into Iusages in English that English men might beware of Popish images which are Idols Neither is the alteration of the terme in a later translation any correction of the former but a variation onely intending still still the terme Idols to extend it selfe to Popish images as well as heathenish as you Papists and all men doe well enough perceiue and know Thirdly your owne vulgar translation hath Filioli custodite vos a simulachris which what is it else in English but Babes keepâ— your selues from images For howsoeuer you shift about this word also and would haue the true notation of it giuen by Lactantius that it hath his name à similitudine that De Orig. erro lib. 2. cap. 2. is of likenesse and is all one with imago animage for so Lactantius manifestly confounds it and will needs haue it come onely à simulando of counterfeâ—ting or feming yet this poore shift will do you little good For euen this counterfeiting is not without likenesse whether the matter counterfeited haue a true being or a false The strange picture whereof Horace speaketh De arte poetica made with a womans head a horse necke with other parts borowed of other creatures and lastly a fishes taile though it be no likenesse of any thing that hath a being yet is it a likenesse if of no more then of the Painters fansie Simulachrum therefore when you haue sayd all you can is an image and so much Doctor Fulke hath proued vnto you out of sundrie Authors As lawfully Against Greâ— Mattia cap. 1. sect 5. then might Tyndall translate from images as your vulgar à simulachris Lastly your vulgar translation hath in the second commandement Exod. 20. Similitudinem Lakenesse of any â—â—g which in the Hebrew is Temunah Arias Montanus translateth the same word Imagmem an image Deut. 4. 6. and your owne vulgar in the same place Non vidistus aliquam similitudinem in die qua locutus est vobiâ— Dominus in Oreb de medio ignis â—â— forte decepts faciatis vobis sculptam similitudinem â—ut imaginem omnium Iumentorum You savve no likenesse in the day vvherein the Lord spake vnto you out of Oreb out of the middest of the fire least you being deceiued make unto you any grauen likenesse or any â—mage of any beast c. And August Quest super Exod translateth the second Commandement thus Non facies tibi idôlum neque vllum simulachrum quaecunque in coelo sunt sursum wherehy it appeareth first that siâ—ulachrum imago differ not and therefore the vulgar translating simulachris we may translate images Secondly that God in the second commandement commandeth to make no image and therfore againe the Apostles dehortation being deduced out of the second Commandement Tyndall translated well and according to the â—Apostles meaning Babes or little children keepe your selues from Images Now then to what streits you are driuen that you haue no otherâ— way to maintaine your Imagerie and worshipping of Images then by such nice distinctions of imago and simulachrum of Imago and idôlum betweene which the Scriptures put no difference if your authenticall translation and Arias Montanus doe rightly translate I appeale to your owne consciences if you haue not sold them to maintaine idolatrie as Ieroboam did himselfe and to the indifferent iudgement of all that are not partiall PAPIST Likewise to bring the Shrines of Martyrs and holy reliques in contempt and to make simple people beleeue that it is an heathenish custome they translate thus in the said old Bible Demetrius a siluer smith that made siluer shrines for Diana Malitious corruptioÌ„ for in the text there is no mention of siluer shrines but of siluer temples and to the fore said later Bible truly translateth See hovv they can accommodate their Bibles to the time For when Images and shrines were yet standing in England or fresh in memorie they fitted their translations accordingly PROTESTANT To this pidling quarrell little answer needs The word in that place is rather to be vnderstood of some coine wherein the Image and temple of Diana was stamped then of any Temple or Shrine yet did not the old Translator without authority so translate For therein hee followed Homil. 42. in Act. Chrisostome who coÌ„ceiueth that they may be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Little Shrines But there is no neede to inforce this place against your idolatrie to Shrines of Saints and Relikes the Scriptures do largely affoord reasons proofes against it your seruice you do vnto theÌ„ your annexing of power and grace vnto them your trust you put in them are so many so grosse idolatries that without streyning any one place of Scripture the first and second commandement do aboundantly condemne them PAPIST As in these points the old translation is corrupt and the later better so in other things the later is false and the former true for example thus they translate Thou wilt not leaue my soule in Act. 2. 27. graue Malitious corruption against the descending of Christes soule into hell For it is contrarte to the originall text and the former translation of Tyndal PROTESTANT This cauilling obiection hath beene often made by you Papists and often answered as all men know and therfore it may seeme a vaine labour to trauaile in satisfying them that will accept no satisfaction Howbeit for their sakes that peraduenture haue seene your obiection but haue taken no paines to vnderstand the answere I will briefly set it downe if at least they will vouchsafe to heare it First therefore you cannot be ignorant that the Hebrue word Sheol doth in that tongue properly signifie the graue as the learned interpreters of that tongue do obserue and Doctor Fulke against Gregorie Martine hath maintained Pagnine giues that interpretation first as the naturall proprietie of the word and accordingly translateth Gen. 42. 38 Et descendere facutis meam canitiem cum dolore ad sepulchrum You will bring my gray head with sorrow to the graue And in this very place Psalm 16. 10. Quoniam non derelingues aniâ—ans meam in sepulchre Thou wilt not leaue my soule in graue And so likewise in other places as Gen. 37. 35. Iob. 17. 13. 1 King 2. 9. c. In all which places Arias Montanus altereth not his translation and your Louanian Censors haue approoued it Is it malitious corruption in our translations and not in yours Secondly by the interpretation of Peter and Paul Act. 2. 31 33. 13. 35. 36. 37. The Prophet here spake of Christs resurrection but