inconueniences but vpon the same that best agreeeth with the sayings of the Saints and the Ecclesiasticall traditions He is wise enough for saying with the tenure of the holy Scriptures or with the nature of the Sacrament And indeed the Lord of Eur. should haue learned of his Bellarmin that Durand dyd not sufficiently beleeue transubstantiation who in his 3. booke of the Sacrament of the Eucharist Chap. xi hath these words h Bellarm. de Sacram. Euchar. lib. 3. c. 11 Durandus docuit parteÌ„ vnaÌ„ essentialem id est formaÌ„ panis conuerti partem alteraÌ„ id est materiaÌ„ non conuerti Durand hath taught that an essential part of the bread namely the forme is conuerted and that the other part namely the substance is not coÌ„uerted Which he doth expressely confute in the 13. Chapter of his third booke and citeth Durand vpon the 4. booke of sentences Dist 11. q. 3. Heere would our Masters and Commissioners haue referred the iudgement as they had done with the former confessing that the whole question deserued to be read that it might be iudged by the course thereof But then the Lord of Eureux found himselfe agreeued saying that it was in vaine for them to dispute if they wold not iudge sundry tymes speaking to the King to appoynt his pleasure to the sayd Commissioners Whereupon his Maiesty comming vnto them this Article was decided and the Lord Chauncellor pronounced That Durands opposition was alleaged for his resolution Heere let the reader iudge albeit it were so of the wordes of the opposition so playnely repeated in the resolution and Durand speaking no longer in a third person but in his owne person afterward likewise these clauses Durum est Temerarium est Jt is hard It is rash c. Whether in so doubtfull so ticklish so problematticall matter the Lord of Eureux might pretend any haynous vntruthes euen palpably to be iudged at the very opening of the booke at the bare sight thereof where a mans iudgement not his eyes is in daunger of fayling The third place out of Chrisostom vpon the first to the Thessalonians FOr the third they came to a place of Chrisostom vpon the first to the Thessa Hom. 1. Liu 3 de Euchar chap. 11. ed. 1. pa. 5. 7. l. 31. edit 2. p. 538. l. â— ed. 3 p. 498. l. 22. alleaged by the Lord of Plessis in his booke p. 537. li. 31. where hee examineth all the places of Scripture which the aduersaries doe boldely apply to the inuocation of Saints namely this out of Ieremy 15. a Ierem. c. 15. v 1. Si stererint Moyses Samuel coraÌ„ me non est anima mea ad populum istum Though Samuell and Moyses should stand before me yet should not my affection be to this people In which place hauing prooued by S. Hâ—erosme Theodoret S. Gregory Hugo Cardinall yea the glosse it selfe that this place is meant of the intercession of Moses and Samuell when they liued betweene the wrath of God and the sinnes of the people But not of any intercession of the dead Saintes vnto God for the faythfull liuing heere beneath hee withall addeth that heere of Chrisostom gathereth a conclusion cleane contrary to that of the aduersaries namely That wee must not stand vpon the Prayers of the Saints but worke our saluation with feare and trembling Now against this place the Lord of Eureux pretended two thinges The one that the Lord of Plesses had cut him off in the substantiall wordes namely if we be negligent The other that Chrisostom entreated of the intercession of the Saints deceased which the Lord of Plessis denyed To the first the Lord of Plesses aunswered that he alleadged not the expresse wordes of Chrisostom but onely set downe the sence because the discourse contayned twoo or three whole pages which he reduced as it were into a Theses and that indeed he alleaged it after the phrase of the Gramarians Oratione obliqua non recta in an ouerthwart and not direct speech by this word That he c. Therefore that he was not bound to the course of the text To the other that in this allegation he had no other purpose but to shew that Chrisostom out of this place of Ieremy had not gathered as the Church of Rome at this day doth the intercession and inuocation of the deceased Saintes but contrariwise had collected this Doctrine That wee must not generally stand vpon the prayers of the Saintes whether aliue or dead in somme vpon other mens prayers but that we must watch pray and endeuour as the Apostle sayth to make sure our saluation with feare and trembling And indeed that this intent appeared in these words b Chrysostan 1. ad Thessal chap. 1. hoâ— 1. sub fineÌ„ p. 1414 editionts Groeâ— Lat. Hier. CeÌ„melini 1596. Et vt id seras audi Deum dicentem Si steterint Noe Iob Daniel non eripient filios suos filias ruisus Si steterit Moses Samuel Et vide quomodo hoc dicitur duobus Prophetis quoniam ambo pro ipsis togarant noÌ„ eraÌ„t assequuti c. And to the end thou shouldest know namely that the prayers of the Saints doe not profit except we doe conuert and turne vnto God hear what the Lord saith by the Prophet If Noè Iob Daniel stood before me yet should they not saue their Sonnes nor their Daughters And againe Jf Moses and Samuel c. And marke how this is spoken to two Prophets because both of them had prayed but had not obtained c. Thus that this place of Chrisostom was not curtalled neyther could be sith it was but touched by the way and not alleaged Much lesse was it wrested to any contrary sence because generally he speaketh of the prayers of the Saints albeit the examples were of those that are yet conuersant with vs heere beneath Now for the better opening of this point the Lord of Plessis owne words did suffice That we must not stand vpon For what is it to stand vpon but wholy to trust or to relye vpon euen to the exclusion of our owne duety and of all other meanes Hee did then expresse the meaning of Chrisostom that the prayers of the Congregation of the Saints of the faithfull each for other are good are to bee wished But that we should not sleepe vpon them but for our owne parts doe our duetyes Also the course of the text will lead vs thereunto c Et pa. 14. c. 2. Nullus dormiat nullus sit piger ad virtutem Hoc enim est somnus Nescitis quando dormimus quam nostra non sunt in tuto quam facile eis parentur insidiae Quando auteÌ„ vigilamus non opus est nobis tanta custodia Quando dormimus etiam cuÌ„ multa custodia sepe perimus Sunt ostea vectes custodes vigiles tamen fur ingreditur Cur haec dico QuoniaÌ„ si vigilemus non egebimus alioruÌ„
auxilio Sin autem dormiamus noÌ„ multum nobis prodest alioruÌ„ auxilium sed etiam cum illo perimus Let no man sayth he lull himselfe on sleep let no man bee slow to vertue for that is a sleeping Know you not when we sleep how small assuraunce we haue how easie a matter it is to rob vs and contrariwise when wee watch there need no such guarde When wee sle pe not withstanding all our guard wee many times perrish VVe baue gates barres boulter watchmen and sentinels yet doth the theefe sometimes get in VVherfore doeâ—â— say all this because if we watch we shall not neede the helpe of others but contrariwise if we sleep the help of others shall stand vs in small steed but wee shall perish therewithall Of others saith he in generall and what meaneth he by others d Sequiter im mediatè BonuÌ„ est frui SaÌ„ctorum precibus sed eum ipsi quoque fuerimus intenti operi Je is good sayth he to haue the prayers of the Sayntes but alwaies prouided that our selues bee attentiue to our owne workes And did not the Lord of Plâ—ssis say as much Not to depend vpon the prayers of the Saints but to make sure our saluation with feare and trembling And therefore with what conscience can it bee sayd that this place is curtalled as indeed our Masters the Commissioners did not so iudge Now for the opening of the second whether this place of Chrisostom doth commend vnto vs the inuocation of the dead Saints wee must consider what followeth e Mox imme diatè Et quid mihi inquit opus est aliorum precibus cum suero intentus operi Ne te eo redigas vt opus habeas Nec ego quideÌ„ hoc volo sed opâ—s semper hâ—be mus si sapia mus And what need I sayth hee aliorum precibus the prayers of others so long as my selfe dâ—e labour Now sayth hee â—euer bring thy selfe into that necessity neyther 〈◊〉 it my minde â—â—ou shouldest yet if we be wise we doe alwaies stand in need But of what Saints of the dead or of the faythfull that liue surely there is enough spoken of that neyther doe wee doubt but the Saynts that tryu nph with Christ doe pray for the Church milirant heere beneath But wee are not come to that For that they pray for the aduauncement of Gods kingdome or for our perticuler necessityes that they pray according to theyr charity that quayleth not or that we may in fayth pray to them haning no foundation therfore are very contrary questions Howbeit heere wee shall see that Chrisostom speaketh or the prayers of the Saintes that are conuersant among vs grounded vpon the expresse word of God of whome sayth he we stand in need and yet doth he exhort vs not to relye vpon them f Sequitur inmediatè Paulus noÌ„ dicebat Quid mihi opus est precibus etiamsi qui precabantur non eraÌ„tco digni imó verò ne pares quideÌ„ Et tu dices Quid mihi opus est precibus Petrus noÌ„ dixit Quid mihi opus est precibus Oratio enim inquit fiebat sine intermissione ab Ecclesia ad DeuÌ„ pro eo S. Paul sayth he said not what need I prayers albeit they that prayed were not worthy neyther equall with him yet thou saiest what need J prayers Neither did S. Peter likewise say what need I prayers for saith he the church doth make prayers for him without intermission c. Many other exaÌ„ples he doth also alleage Thus farre then for the Saintes that pray heere beneath for the faithfull desiring all good men to haue care of them in theyr prayers which sayth he are of efficacy with God But how ioyned with our owne with the duety that we performe in our vocation according to that which the Apostle sayth g Et pa. 1417. ex 1 ad Cor. cap. 1. AdiuuaÌ„tibus vopis in oratione pro nobis Vt Ex multis personis eius quâ—in nobis est donationis per multâ—s gratiae agantur pro nobis That yee labour together in prayers for vs that for the gift bestowed vpon vs for many thankes may begiuen by many persons for vs. Neyther may we heere forget that when in this assistance they heard speaking of liuing Saints it was newes vnto them as if it were not a common matter both in the holy Scriptures and in the Fathers to terme the faythfull Saintes euen in this life not for that they are canonized by the Pope but sanctified by fayth in the bloud of Iesus Christ Yer vpon this ignoraunce they made sundry applauses Buâ—d th he not heere speake expressely of the prayers of the Saints deceased for the liuing Doth hee not exhort the faithfull aliue to inuocate the dead to relye vpon they suffiages vpon theyr passions or vpon their merites h Et aliquantò post ex 4. Re. ca 19. Audi DeuÌ„ qui que dicenteÌ„ Proteganâ— hanc ciuitaâ—em prop er me propter Dauid seruum meum Sed quando Tempore Ezechiae quierat iustus c. Surely sayth he God said I will protect this Citty for my owne sake and for my seruaunt Dauids sake Namely because of my couenant in free mercy that I haue made with Dauid and with his seede But when Jn the daies of Ezechias who was righteous Againe i Et in sine eiinsdeÌ„ pag. 1413 Audi Deum dicentem de amice Iobi Et orabit inquit pro vobis dimittetur vobis peccatum quoniam peccarunt quideÌ„ sed non magnum admiserant peccatum Sed hic ipse iustus qui per preces tunc seruauit suos amicos in tempore Iudaico non potuit seruare Iudaeos pereuÌ„ies Et vt id scias audi Deum dicentem per Prophetam Si steteris Noe Iob Daniel non eripient filios suos filias And Iob saith the Lord shall pray for you Namely he liuing for his liuing friendes and your sinnes shall bee remitted But the same righteous sayth he that saued his friends by his prayers in the dayes of the Jewes cannot saue the Jewes And that thou maist be the better enformed thereof heare the Lord who sayth Jf Noah Iob and Daniel stood before me c. And out of this place did the Lord of Eureux argue when he spake of the Saintes deceased But by that which followeth it shall most plainly appeare that he meaneth if they had been eyther to returne in the dayes of Jeremy or if they had been in his place and so did the Fathers vnderstand it Chrisostom in the same place soone after in expresse tearmes sayth k IteÌ„ p. 1. 1414. Si steterit Meses c. qui dixit Si demittas quidem peccatum dimitte sin minus me quoque dele Si hîc ergo nunc esset haec diceret non impetraret Et si rursus Samuel c. Si isti ergo steterint nihil proficient Jf Moses himselfe sayth
hee were now heere and should say vnto me for the people as heeretofore If thou wilt not forgiue them blot me out hee should not bee heard Also if Samuel likewise also if these Namely Noah Iob and Daniel they should not preuaile that is to say comming here downe and making intercession as thou dost least thou shouldst thinke my denyall vnto thee were in regard of thy person l Sequitur immediate Et dicit de Noe Iustus perfectus in generatione sua Et de Iob. Irreprehensibilis iustus verus pius Noah neuerthelesse sayth he and Iob and Daniel righteous men irreprehensible full of godlines c. That is to say Saintes But if the Lord of Eureux would reply but to what purpose is this that he speaketh of the liuing against the inuocation of the Saints deceased Surely because with greater reason he might haue spoken that of the prayers of the Saintes deceased which hee spake of the liuing These that are grounded vpon commandement vpon example vpon promise those that haue no ground at all because also the abuse suppressed in these were of the greater force also against them In the ende Chrisostom concludeth his Homely in these wordes m Mox Cum haec ergo scramus neque preces sanctorum contemnamus neque totum in eas coniiciamus tum ne pigri simus socordes temerè insidiis circumueniamur tum ne a magnolucro excidamus sed horte mur ad orandum ad manus pro nobis porrigeÌ„das ipsi virtutem sectemur And therefore knowing these things let vs not contemne the prayers of the Saintes neyther yet wholy relye vpon them partly least we should bee slouthfull and suffer our selues rashly to be intangled in ambushes partly also least wee should incurre some great losse namely the assistaunce of the prayers of the Saintes or faythfull but let vs exhort them to pray and to lift vp theyr handes for vs where note let vs exhort which cannot bee meant but of the liuing and our selues also ensue vertue Of the Saintes in the conclusion as in the promises of the faythfull praying for S. Paul for S. Peter c. of our selues praying heere beneath the one for the other For whence should the conclusion grow but from the Premises And thus how farre is he from exhorting vs to call vpon the Saintes deceased or to trust to theyr merits Had our Masters the Commissioners had time to haue read ouer the whole place at length as the Lord of Plessis did most earnestly request would they haue stayed vpon that which the Lord of Eureux did vrge n In princi pâ—â— 1414. Iob in tempore Iudaico non potuit seruare Iudaeos pereuntes Iob in the daies of the Iewes could not saue the Iewes that perished Would they not by that which followed haue noted that he aluded to the place of Ieremy If Noah Daniel and Iob stood afore me c. Si steterint Noe Daniel Iob c. Would they not haue perceiued that Sisteterint signified if they were in place where thou art O Jeremy when he saith Sisteterit Moses primus legislator c. Againe Sihic ergomure esset c. Et sirursus Samuel c. If Moses the first law-giuer c. Jf be were now lecre c. And if againe Samuel c. that is to say in the place where thou art And so consequently would they haue iudged that Chrisostom in this place spake of prayer to the Saintes deceased The fourth place out of Chrisostom vpon Mathew NOw followeth another of the like nature Liu. 3 de Euchar c. 13. adit 1. pa. 574. l. 16. edi 2 p. 617. l. 1. edi 3 p. 507. l. 39. taken out of the page 574. line 16. where the Lord of Plesiâ—s sayth as followeth Chrisostom seemeth to haue tasked himselfe to beat downe this abuse so carefull is he to vndermine the foundations vpon euery occasion Namely the inuocation of Saintes deceased founded vpon the pretended merites of others He perceaued sayth hee that the people trusted more to the helpe of other mens prayers then to the amendment of their owne liues And therefore fighteth against this opinion Namely to depend vpon any other whosoeuer But saith Chrisostom we haue much more assuraunce through our owne prayers then through the prayers of others neyther doth God so soone graunt our saluation at others intreatie as at our owne For so tooke he compassion of the woman of Chanaan gaue faith to the Adultresse and Paradice to the Theefe and thereto neuer entreated at the intercession of eyther aduocate or mediator Against this place the Lord of Eureux propounded falsehood by omission Namely because the Lord of Plessas had omitted these words following a Chrian Mat. hom â— pag. 59 edit Basi apud Froben 1558. Et haec non eò dicimus vt supplicandum esse sanctis negemus sed ne torpeamus neue supini ipsi dormieates alus tatum mo do nostra curanda mandeâ—â—â— Neyther â—â—e we speake this to denie that wee should pray to Saints but that wee should not be negligent or slouthfull and so fâ—lling on sleepe or being benummed we should commit the managing of our affaires to others Where wee are to note by the way that the coppy which Chemnicius cyteth hath these wordes Non quod negemus sanctus orare debere pro peccatoribus Not that wee deny that the Saints should pray for sinners Where by the sence should differ very much in this case hee would not haue made such hast to taxe him for omission because hee should haue gained nothing thereby But taking law of the common lesson eyther S. Chrisostom in this Homely speaketh of praying to the liuing Saintes to remember vs in theyr prayers eyther else of inuocation of the Saints deceased If of these then doth the L. of Plessis confesse the omission and graunteth that hee hath done amisse If of the others what wrong hath he done sith they both agree for there is no controuersie in the matter But surely it is most euident by the whole course of all the Homely and by the examples produced that hee there speaketh onely of the holy men that make intercession heere beneath in theyr prayers to God for his people and of the faythfull praying each for other In this Homely doth S Chrisostom handle this poynt that euen our Lords bretheren belieued not in him And thereout gathereth this conclusion That it is in vaine to haue any familiarity eyther of Country Family or Parentage with the Lord vnlesse wee labour to conforme our selues vnto him And therefore he sayth b Ibid. p. 54. Nemo de se desperet c. neevila in re alia spem suam quam post Dei misericordiam in vertute sua collocet Let no man settle his hope in any thing but next vnto the mercy of God in his owne vertue To the same purpose he alleageth c Et mox Nam
Haerony in Ezechiele lib. 4. c. 14. ex editione Christ Plantini 1578. Quod si in aliquo fiducia est insolo domino considamus Maledictus n omnis homo qui speÌ„ habet in homine quaÌ„ uis sancti sint quamuis Prophete Legimus Nolite coÌ„sidere in homimbus Et iterum Bo num est considere in Domino quam coÌ„sidere in principibus NoÌ„ in princip ibus tantuÌ„ scaeculi sed in principibus Eccleasiarum qui suas taÌ„ium aoimas si iusti suerint liberabunâ— Filios autem ac silias quos in Ecclesia genuetint si fuerint negligentes saiuare non poterunt If trust sayth he bee to bee reposed in any let vs repose our trust in one only God for cursed is the man that trusteth in men be they Saints be they Prophets Wee must not trust Principtbus Ecclesiarum in the Principles of the Church who albeit they bee righteous shall deliuer but their owne soules not the soules of their children Against this place also the L. of Eureux pleaded omission because these word Sinegligentes fuerint if they be negligent were omitted Which the L. of Plessis consesseth to be true as he will alwaies do where like matter failes our not of any bad intent for what should he get by it but because as it seemeth he relyed vpon the aduersaries owne allegation For in their ordinary glosse euen vpon this very place of Ezechiel this place is alleaged and these very wordes omitted and as we may well thinke without fraude b Hierâ—ny in Glossa ordinaria â—â—â—duni 159â— in illuel Ezecâ—ielis c. 1â— Non uberabunt filâ—â—â—euaefiuas c. â—onum esâ—ce fidere in Domino quam confidere in principibus c. Non seculâ— tantum sed 〈…〉 iusti ruerint tantuÌ„ animas suas liberabuÌ„â— noÌ„ finos vel fiâ—as quos in Ecclesia genueruÌ„t It is good saith he to trust in the Lord rather then to trust in Princes not of the world onely but euen of the Churches who albeit they be righteous shall deliuer but theyr owne soules not their Sonnes nor their daughters whom they haue begotten in the Church Also this place of Ezechul doth S. Hierome vnder-staÌ„d in like sence as Chrisostom doth the place of Noah Daniel and Job returning into this world Heere againe did the L. of Eureux instantly vrge what maketh this place against the inuocation of Saintes deceased sith it speaketh properly of the liuing Whereto he was answered as in the former but the rather because in the L. of Plessis booke entreating vpon this place of S. Hâ—â—rame vpoÌ„ Ezechiel ensued these words that answered him c 〈…〉 Obseurchâ—â— docentur 〈◊〉 haue senteÌ„â—â—â—lam nou 〈…〉 quod lautat Deum in praesenti saeculo sumus siue orationibus siue consiliis inuiâ—eÌ„ posse nos coadiunari CuÌ„ autem ante tribunal Christi venerimus noÌ„ â—ob non Daeniel nec Noe rogare posse proquoquam sed vnumquemque portare onussuum And to the end we should not thinke that he meant not to speake but of the liuing writing vpon the Epistle to the Galathians vpon these words Euery man should beare his burden marke what he saith By this short sentence we doe learne albeit darkely a new Doctrine that is hidden that so long as we remaine in this world wee may bee holpen by the prayers and counsailes one of an other But when wee come before the Tribunall seate of Christ neither Iob nor Daniel nor Noah can pray for any man but euery man shal beare his owne burden Now the L. of Plessis vrged him to way these words siue orationibus siue consiliis Whether with prayer or with counsell But he would not heare him saying hee had not to doe but with this place The sixt place out of S. Cirill THe sixt was a place out of S. Cirill of Alexandria in his sixt booke against Iulian 〈◊〉 2 de Euâ—â—â— c. 3. ed. 1. p. 233. l 5. edit 2. p. 239. l. 30. ed. â— p. 139. l. 25. taken out of the pa. 223. l. 5. where the L. of Plessis sayth That he answereth the Emperour Iulian who obiected the honour done to the Crosse That the christians doe yeeld neither adoration nor reuerence to the signe of the Crosse Ouer largely peraduenture for the words though surely not for the sence And therefore the L of Eur. pretending vntruth grounded vpon these wordes He answereth because he answereth not precisely in these wordes Heereto the L. of Ples answered that by his owne text it appeared that he neuer meant to alleage the wordes of Cirill onely hee gathered the sence out of a discourse of a leafe in quantity that indeed the oration was not direct but by the way the Character of the text not of any allegation Therefore that they ought to seeke the sence and not the wordes and the rather because it hath been often sayd that the vntruth should not be concluded vpon the diuersitie of woords in case the sence were to be found And as for the sence sayth hee Julian sayd vnto the Christians a Cirill Alena contra IulianuÌ„ lib. 6. p. 134. to 3. Basill apud Ioan. Heruagium 1566. Et ô miserihomines cum serueÌ„tur arma qure magnus demisit Iupiter hoc est pater Martis pignore dato non verbo sed re quod ciuitatem nostram perpettio protecturussit cessatis adorare colere interim crucis lignum adoratis imagines illius in fronte antedomus pingentes Yee wretches as yee are yee worship not Ancilia de coelo lapsa our bucklers fallen from heauen which Iupiter hath giuen vs for the protection of our Citty and yet yee worship the tree of the Crosse and paint the Images thereof in the forefronts and before your houses Heereunto if the Christians in those daies had worshipped the tree of the Crosse what was there to be said sauing we worship it because it deserueth worship and not Dulia onely but also Hiperdulia a more especiall seruice euen so forre foorth as to bend both the knees yea to bow with the belly to the earth euen to inuocate it as liuing c. But what aunswere doth S. Cirill make him b Et paucis interiectis Absque labore demonstrabimus elusmodi sermones à malis cogitationibus profectos extremam sapere imperitiam But sayth he we can easily proue that these speeches proceed of bad thoughts and relye vpon extreame ignoraunce And wherein Sauing in that hee did imagine that because they painted the Crosse they did it to worship it And therefore euen at once he bringeth him backe from the Crucifixe to the crucified from the signe to the thing signified from the pretended oderation of the wood to the mistery of our redemption 〈…〉 Nam 〈…〉 doâ—â—â—â— qua 〈…〉 omnibus 〈…〉 aequalia 〈◊〉 indiâ—unitatis solio considere non capinam tameÌ„ arbitratus est se esse aequalem Deo sed serpsum humiliauit formam serui accipiens