than one his answere hath no colour or shewe of reason for though euerie day in the weeke had beene so appointed yet had they not beene all Sabbaths vnlesse they had weekely continued as the first day did from weeke to weeke till Saint Iohns banishment at what time still wee finde that day kept holy and dedicated to the Lord as appeareth by the name which the holy Ghost giueth it in the Reuelation Cap. 1.13 Againe where he saith That the first Christians sold their possessions to the intent they might wholy bestow themselues vpon the seruice of God It would be knowne by what tradition or inspiration he found that out seeing the scriptures informe vs Act. 2.45 that their intent was to supply the necessitie of their poore brethren I trow the other Iewes that were to attend dayly vpon the morning and euening houres of praier and sacrifice did not vnload themselues of their possessions moreouer this lawe and sale of possessions though it were vsed at Ierusalem yet was it not in force in Galatia and Achaia and other Churches of the Gentiles 1. Cor. 16.2 Gal. 6 6 c. which had of their owne to put aside and lay vp for the poore And touching the Minor your Papist sayth that the Troiane Christians were assembled the first day of the wéeke to breake bread but not appointed so to doe by the prescription of the Apostles belike they came together by hap hazard or by their owne appointment howbeit hee that planted the Church of Troas cannot be so forgetfull as to leaue euery man separately to himselfe and not to appoint when they should assemble themselues for the continuall watring of that which was planted Act. 20.7 now to note what time that was Saint Luke names the first day of the weeke otherwise there is no reason why it should bee mentioned moreouer whereas Paul and his companie came to Troas the second day of the weeke and tarried there iust seuen dayes yet no day of assembly is registred but this one onely day and yet we may not think that Paul and his companie lay idle sixe daies together and forgat the worke of their calling yea but let vs admit saith your Papist that Paul was to depart on the Tuesday and that the Christians were assembled on the Monday c. Yea marry then should we be wise men but the Disciples of Troas met not to heare Paul preach for most of them had heard him preach before sixs dayes together but to breake bread which they would haue done though Paul had not beene amongst them and therefore this supposition is cloudie and riculous Touching the place to the Corinthians your Papist saith that Saint Paul doth not prescribe the first day of the week for prayer preaching and administration of Sacraments but for a laying aside for the poore according to euery mans deuotion and I graunt all this to bee true for those holy exercises were inioyned the churches of Galatia and Achaia when they were first planted and so was the collection for their owne poore for this collection for the Saimes at Ierusalem was extraordinarie but that the Apostle Paul would bee so troublesome as not to content himselfe that this collection should be made as their other collections were vpon their ordinarie meeting day but to appoint another day weeke by weeke to the hinderance of their seuerall callings is vtterly incredible nay see further I pray you how your learned Papist doubleth the power of the argument which he goeth about to weaken for when he asketh why the Apostle inioyneth this collection to be made vpon that day and answereth himselfe out of the text that there be no gatherings when I come and then asketh againe why the Apostle would haue no gatherings when he came and answereth with a no doubt because he would not haue such spirituall exercises as hee determined to bestow among them hindered by such collections what doth he else but confesse that the first day of the weeke was the day that Paul purposed to keepe holy at his comming and therefore would not haue that day bestowed vpon collections when he came but before his comming otherwise if hee had meant to bestow spirituall blessings so plentifully among them vpon any other day then gatheringes made vpon that day could not hinder him Yea but if these collections were hinderances to the spirituall exercises of the Sabbath then it followeth that the first day of the week wherin Paul would haue these collections made was not appointed to be the Christians Sabbath Well wrangled but howsoeuer this extraordinarie collection inioyned by Saint Paul might hinder Saint Paul himselfe that preached at Troas till midnight nay till the dawning of the next day Rom. 15.29 and vsed to come with abundance of the blessing of the Gospell of Christ yet their owne ordinarie ministerie being farre lesse plentifull could not be so easily hindered Apol. 2. and therefore wee read in Iustine Martyr that in his time beside preaching and administring the Sacraments collections were made vpon this verie day in Christian Churches One wrangle more remaineth against the force of this place to the Corinths namely that no generall assembly can be wrung out of it because the text saith Let euerie one put apart by himselfe and lay vp which argueth a priuat laying vp at home for a man cannot be sayd to lay vp that which he deliuereth to another Well wrangled againe but what call you this a gathering and is this kinde of laying vp at euerie mans owne home a sufficient dispatch of all gathering so as there should be no gathering at all when the Apostle should come himselfe amongst them Wherefore little wringing will serue to prooue that this laying vp is not meant of euerie mans owne purse or cupbord at home which might be done any other day as well as the first of the weeke but of some publique Chest or Boxe prouided for euerie mans free beneficence as euerie particular man himselfe found himselfe able and willing Now followeth the place of the Reuelation where Saint Iohn saith that he was in the spirite on the Lords day or Cap. 1.10 Psa 74.16 as the Rhems Testament translates it the Dommicall day Out of which we learne first that albeit all the dayes of the weeke are the Lords yet this day is so called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as being a more excellent or eminent day than the rest and so consequently a day consecrated to the seruice of the Lord. Secondly we learne that this day was famously knowne by the name of Lords day or Dominicall day in the Churches of Asia Reuel 1.4 to whome Saint Iohn dedicated his Reuelation for it had been to no purpose for him to tell them that hee was in the spirite on the Lords day if they knew not what day that was and how it was seuered by that name from the rest of the weeke and therefore as it was an
content to loose the Scripture so you may keepe your Traditions was sometimes made of the Apocalypse of S. Iohn and of other pieces of scripture but since the one was decided by a generall Councell and both is nowe receiued and beleeued of the vniuersal Church there remaineth no more doubt in the one than in the other the tradition leading vs to the trueth of them both Thus it appeareth as cleare as the Sunne that the Apostles left many thinges which are not contained in their writings by Tradition Secondly that many traditions left by the Apostles are now abolished Thirdly that that doctrine which is practised beleeued through the vniuersall Church hauing no ground out of the writings of the Apostles and which hath béene vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop is a Tradition of the Apostles and to be followed and imbraced and consequently that all the doctrine of the Catholickes which is not warranted by Scripture is f That is to say vpon a fancy of your owne grounded vpon the Traditions of the Apostles and therefore to g How long till it please you to disaâ—ull them be followed and imbraced The Answere HEere your Papist takes paines to shew vs another point of his learning namely why some Traditions bee kept and some be out of date but very simply in my opinion for antiquity appointing both wednesdaies and frydaies to be fasted let him yeeld me any colour of reason or circumstance of times or states why the Church should reiect the one and obserue the other they were both in force with like authoritie with like consent in omnibus orbis terrarum regionibus in all the countries of the world Haeres â—5 as saith Epiphanius they were agreeable in all pointes to Augustines rule which is so certaine and direct saith he that it cannot misleade vs yet for all this wednesday fast must be packing and fryday onely must continue what Church I beseech you did this and when and vpon what graue consideration was it done it is not enough for him to talke his pleasure flyingly of the communitie of all things no where practised but at Ierusalem of the office of widowes still in force where it may be had prohibition of blood rerepealed by Saint Paul and such like but hee should shew vs what eare-marke one Tradition hath more then another why it may or should be cancelled and touching not fasting vpon Sundayes in Lent or any time else in the yeere it was generally obserued in the Catholike Church as the same Epiphanius witnesseth In compend doctr eccles haeres 70. epist ad Phil. lib. de coronae militis who telleth vs also in another place out of the Apostles Constitutions that he is accursed of God that fasteth vpon Sunday qui affligit animaÌ„ suam in Dominica maledictus est Deo Ignatius calleth theÌ„ that fast vpoÌ„ Sunday 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Christicides Christ killers Wherevnto Tertullian accordeth saying Epiph. 75. die Dominico ieiunium nefas ducimus wee count it a haynous sinne to faste on the Lords day yet notwithstanding the Romanists haue found some graue consideration or other to disanull it and to agree rather in that point with Aerius and Eustathius too whereof the one was an hereticke Socrates hist eccles lib. 2. cap. 33. whatsoeuer the other was apud Aerianos studium est vt in die Dominica ieiunent Eustathius dominicis diebus ieiunandum docuit the Aerians are carefull to fast on the Lords day Eustathius taught that men ought to fast on the Lords dayes And therefore your Papist I trow will hereafter find it best for him not to vpbraid vs any more with Aerius yea but when Traditions were alledged against the old heretikes neuer any of them denied the authoritie of some because other some were not obserued a great piece of matters we may not do it because heretickes did it not but can he shew vs what hereticke euer affirmed that of one bunch or heape of Traditions some may be taken and some refused and beeing all birds of a feather some may flie away quite and the rest may in no case flie after but flutter still in their nest I wis Augustines rule will not helpe in this case for fasting vpon wednesdayes and not fasting vpon Sundayes was as generally obserued euery where as any other Tradition that can be named nay what Tradition can be more strongly fenced than that of the age of Christ in Irenaeus Iren. lib. 2. cap. 39. 40 Euangelium omnes Seniores testantur qui in Asia apud Iohannem discipulum Domini conuenerunt idipsum tradidisse eis Iohannem permansit autem cum eis vsque ad Traiani tempora quidam autem eorum non solum Iohannem sed alios Apostolos viderunt haec eadeÌ„ ab ipsis audierunt testantur de huiusmodi relatione quibus magis oportet credi ne his talibus an Ptolomaeo qui Apostolos nunquam vidit c. The Gospell and all the Elders which were with Iohn the disciple of the Lord doe testifie that Iohn himselfe did deliuer it vnto them and hee taried with them til the time of Traiane now some of them sawe not onely Iohn but other disciples also and heard the same things of theÌ„ testifie of such a report whoÌ„ then ought we to beleeue whether such men as these or Ptolomey who neuer sawe the Apostles Ioh 6.57 Here is scripture out of S. Iohns Gospell and Tradition from Iohns mouth and others of his fellow Apostles for the exposition of the same here bee all the Elders of Asia that heard it with their owne eares and liued to the dayes of Irenaeus that writes it and yet for all this I thinke the church of Rome will as soone beleeue Ptolomey the hereticke as this Tradition The like may be sayd of the celebration of the feast of Easter in the churches of Asia where the Tradition from Saint Iohn and Saint Philip the Apostles to Polycarp and so forward was fresh in memorie obserued by many Bishops and Martyrs Euseb libr. 5. cap. 22. and confidently and resolutely auouched by Polycrates then angell of Ephesus and a great multitude of Bishops gathered together in Councell vnder their hands yet Victor the Pope made no account of it and within a while after Victors death most men think it was condemned for heresie Now I pray you tell vs what the Churches of Asia should doe in this case shall they receiue and reuerence this Tradition still as left them by their Pastors for their spirituall benefite what shall they receiue and reuerence heresy crossing the decision of a generall Councell so saith your Papist if I vnderstand him yet I doubt whether Bede or Pope Gregory or Austine the Monke will make good his saying nay himselfe within three or foure lines after eats his word againe for the contrary definition saith hee was receiued and beleeued of the vniuersall Church and
euen in his sight and presence Now what can this second beast be but the Lambe skinned Dragon tongued Prelacy of Rome and what other beast did the Romane Empire euer yeeld vnto but this onely whereof it followeth that the first beast is not onely the heathenish Emperours but the succession in generalitie for the heathenish neuer yeelded any of their heads to be cured by the Romish Dragon nay marke further where the g Apoc. cap. 18. holy Ghost teacheth that this first beast that hath seuen heads and ten hornes is ridden by the scarlet coloured whore of Baylon which cannot be vnderstood singly of the heathenish Emperours but generally of the Empire of Rome which at length yeelded his backe to bee sadled and ridden by that Babylonish Harlot which h Cap. 19.20 is afterward called a false prophet Wherefore as I sayd before so I say againe come i Reu. 18.4 out of Babylon that ye be not partakers of her sinnes and that yee receiue not of her plagues O mercifull Father open our eyes that we may see the vglinesse of Poperie in the cleere glasse of thy holy word and still teach vs by the continuall experience of thy gratious fauor and protection to take heed of the sauage designements of the Romish Dragon Hardwicke the 28. of Ianuarie 1606. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad Lectorem Corporis angusto mihi pes fuit alter in antro Mens quoque vi socia corporis aegra fuit Ne pigeat tamen hunc librum percurrere patris aegroti sanus filius esse potest Debilis aura vias solet exiccare palustres Et lapides magnos guttula parua cauat The Contents Sectio 1. Questions touching the Church Scriptures Fathers and Traditions in generall by way of Introduction Sectio 2. Of the Lords day eating blood maryage within degrees of affinitie polygamy and punishming theft whether they be determined by scripture or Tradition Sectio 3. 4. Of Traditions in generall Sectio 5. Whether the Fathers holding certaine points of Papistrie be therefore excluded out of our Church Sectio 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. Of praying for the dead Sectio 11. 12. 13. 14. Of Purgatorie Sectio 15. 16. 17. 18. Of Transubstantiation Sectio 19. Of prayer to Saints Sectio 20. 21. 22 Of vowing chastitie and Priests mariage Sectio 23. Of the errours of the ancient Fathers Sectio 24. Of Iustification by merite of our owne workes and the superabundant workes of the Saints Sectio 25. Of free-will to merite heauen Sectio 26. Of the power of the keyes ouer the quicke and the dead Sectio 27. A Conclusion containing certaine generall inducements that Poperie is the true way that leadeth blinde men and fooles to heauen so as they cannot erre and that our Religion is an inexplicable Labirinth that hath no direction which is plaine blasphemie against God the author and inspirer of the Scripture A BRIEFE ANSVVERE to a Popish Dialogue between two Gentlemen the one a Papist the other a Protestant The Dialogue Sectio I. PApist Doe you beléeue the Catholicke Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea and afterward dispersed through the whole world which Church hath euer since remained on earth and shall so continue vntil the second comming of Christ Protestant All this I doe beleeue Pap. Are the Protestants of this Church or the Papists or both Pro. The Protestants onely Pap. Haue you any outward meanes to perswade you that the Protestants are onely of this Church or are you mooued thereunto by inspiration onely Pro. The inward meanes is the spirite of God the outward is the canonicall Scripture Pap. This inward meanes lyeth hidden in your owne breast but how do you by this outward meane discerne the true Church Pro. That church which doth teach practise the doctrine conteined in the canonicall Scriptures is the true Church of Christ cōtrariwise that church which in matters of faith teacheth a VVittingly and wilfully any doctrine repugnant or not grounded vpon the same word is an hereticall Church a synagogue of Satan Pap. The Scriptures you say are the outward meane for discerning of the true Church haue you some outward meanes to discerne the canonicall Scriptures or doe you know them by inspiration onely Pro. The outward meane is the vniforme b There be other outward meanes beside the consent of antiquitie consent of all antiquitie Pap. You doe then receiue the testimonie of ancient writers for the discerning of the canonicall Scriptures why doe you not likewise beléeue that the Apostles did leaue many things to be obserued in the Church by tradition without writing séeing that the one and the other is confirmed by the like vniforme consent of ancient writers Pro. The Scripture is the sure rocke whereon to build our faith wherein all things are contained necessarie for our saluation The Answere IT is a common saying that such as doe deficere in extremo actu faile in the last act are foolish Poets but whether they be foolish Diuines or no that faile euerie where beginning and ending and all iudge you and that you may doe it the better obserue I pray you how vntowardly this popish Diuine begins to lay his foundation that you may the better iudge of the whole frame of his building The word Catholicke is taken three maner of wayes first for that which is opposed to heretical or schismaticall as Ecclesia Catholica the Catholicke Church and Ecclesia Martyrum the Church of the Martyrs Haeresi 68. in Epiphanius Secondly for that which is opposed to the Church of the Iewes for such a signification hath the word Catholicke in the inscription of Saint Iames his Epistle Lastly for the generall fellowship of all the children of God elected and adopted in Christ Iesu before the foundations of the world for none else can bee the members of the bodie of Christ Eph. 1.23 Colos 1.24 and in this signification it is taken in our Creed Now it would be knowne which of these significations is meant in the first question the first signification restraineth the word Catholicke to particular Churches it is not like that your Papist demaundeth whether you beleeue this or that Church in particular Againe the second opposeth the word Catholicke to the church of Iurie wheras your Papist includeth the church of Iurie before there was any other church any where planted in his question saying Doe you beléeue the catholique Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea and afterward dispersed c. The last signification is applied to the Saints of God predestinated to saluation 2. Tim. 2.19 which Church was neuer planted by the Apostles but by the eternall decree of God who onely knoweth who are his Againe I can hardly brooke that the Church is here said to be first planted by the Apostles for God had his Church euer from the beginning or that it hath remained euer since the Apostles planted it for it hath
remained euer from the beginning now if it be sayd that hee meaneth the Church vnder the Gospell Rom. 15.8 Heb. 2.3 it will trouble him to prooue that the Apostles were the first planters of that Church in Iudaea seeing Christ himselfe was minister of the circumcision and first began to preach saluation before it was confirmed by them that heard him Moreouer that the Church was euer dispersed through the whole world by the ministery of the Apostles is sooner said than prooued for though Paul say that the fall of the Iewes was the riches of the world yet doth hee not meane the whole world simply without exception no more than Saint Luke doth when he saith that Augustus Caesar decreed that all the world should bee taxed Luk. 2.1 Math. 28.19 Luk. 24.47 Mark 16.15 Act. 16.6 c. 2. Cor. 10.13 c. and so must wee vnderstand all Nations in Matthew and Luke and all the world and euerie creature in Saint Markes Gospell for though the words be generall and without limitation yet the Apostles were kept in and guided more particularly by the holy Ghost Lastly it would bee agreed vpon what faith or beleefe your Papist meaneth when hee saith Doe you beléeue the catholicke Church whether iustifying or historicall For though he seeme to fetch his question out of the Creed wherein the articles of iustifying faith are recorded and so to make the catholicke Church inuisible for faith is the euidence of thinges not seene Heb. 11.1 yet when hee addeth planted by the Apostles in Iudaea c. he maketh it visible and so not to be beleeued Wherefore though this first question haue neither head nor foot yet thus in charitie I conceiue of it that it demaundeth whether we beleeue historically that there were orderly Churches or companies professing catholicke doctrine taught by the Apostles first among the Iewes and then among the Gentiles which profession and professors shall continue in one place or other to the worlds end if this be the question then haue you answered catholiquely first that you beleeue this and then secondly that the Protestants onely are the visible and knowne members of Gods church Now where it is demaunded in the third and fourth place how wee knowe this whether by outward meanes or by inspiration it is answered that the canonicall word of God doth so testifie and better witnesse than this we desire none and touching this word of God the Papists graunt all those bookes to bee canonicall which wee call canonicall though they adde other Bookes which wee admit not for grounds and foundations of faith but if wee cannot make good our profession by those bookes which both sides agree vpon and by the same bookes ouerthrow all that the Papists hold against vs at this day then I for my part will soone yeeld to the Pope and craue absolution vpon my knees Nowe forsooth the discerning of these canonicall Scriptures is called into question and they must bee subiected to the infirmity of man howbeit your answere though it be true yet is it insufficient for howsoeuer the vniforme consent of antiquitie is not to be neglected yet as our Sauiour saith Ioh. 5.36 that he had greater witnesse than the witnesse of Iohn so hath the holy Scripture greater witnesse than the witnesse of the Fathers namely the puritie and incontrolled antiquitie of it the Maiestie of the stile the conformablenesse of the precepts thereof to the lawe of nature and diuers other outward meanes noted by Master Caluine in his Institutions Lib. 1. Cap. 8. otherwise it were hard to tell how the men of Beroea and other ancient Christians discerned the Scripture in the Apostles time and after Act. 17.11.12 before any one of the ancient Fathers was borne or had written a syllable and herehence it is easily gathered how vaine the sixt question is for traditions are not confirmed by such pregnant euidence as the Scriptures are but hange in the winde vppon the conceits of men which may be deceiued and therfore a Christian man may well beleeue the one though he neglect the other Rom. 1.16 Heb. 4.12 1. Cor. 2.4 1. Cor. 14.24.25 Luk. 24.32 the powerfull working of the word of God described by Saint Paul and the Author to the Hebrewes and the Disciples of Christ in Saint Lukes Gospell are sufficient witnesses to the soule that Traditions which haue not the same image and superscription may be refused as the commandements and doctrines of men The Dialogue Sectio II. PA. Do you not perceiue that by this description of the Church you haue giuen two mortall wounds vnto your owne cause first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane out of the Church by you described and secondly you thrust out all the ancient Fathers and Doctors that euer flourished in the Church since the Apostles time Pro. The wounds you speake of surely are not mortall for as yet I feele them not Pap. They will prooue sensible when they come to the searching first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane who hold many points of Doctrine not a These points are warrantable by Scripture as it shall appeare warranted by the Scriptures as the obseruation of the Sunday in stead of Saturday which was the Sabbath of the Iewes that Christians may eat bloud notwithstanding the decrée of the first generall Councell to the contrarie that a christian Magistrate may punish theft with death which in a Iewish Magistrate was a breach of the commaundement that it is a greater offence in a christian to haue Concubines and many wiues then it was in Dauid who notwithstanding was a man according to Gods owne heart that Christians should be tied vnto the law prescribed vnto the Iewes for marriage within degrées of affinitie and not vnto the like law prescribed to the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother dying without issue For all which you haue no warrant out of the scriptures Pro. For all these points of Doctrine wee haue sufficient warrant out of the booke of God and first concerning the Sabbath of Christians it is euident in the 20. of the Acts that the Christians did assemble themselues the first day of the weeke to heare Paul preach and to breake bread likewise in the 16. Chapter of Saint Pauls 1. Epistle to the Corinths it appeareth that Saint Paul did ordaine in all the Churches of Galatia that collection should be made for the poore vpon the first day of the weeke where hee doth also exhort the Corinthians to doe the like vpon the same day whereby it is euident that the Sunday was appointed by the Apostles to be the Christians Sabbath which is nothing else but a day of rest from labour and a day to bee bestowed in hearing the word preached breaking of bread whereby is meant administration of the Sacrament giuing of almes and other workes of deuotion and pietie for proofe whereof out of the places aboue alleaged I doe draw this
it was lawfull by the law of God in cases specified in the same lawe that is Cap. 22.2 as I take it if the thiefe breake vp a house for that I finde specified in Exodus Howbeit Dauid in a case not specified giueth sentence of a thiefe that as the Lorde liueth he is the child of death that is that he should surely die and also that he should make a fourefolde or eightfolde restitution 2. Sam. 12.5.6 Arbangtaijm Arbangtaijm Now if the Hebrue word be taken for eightfold as no Romanist may deny Exod. 21.1 because the old catholicke translation hath so set it downe we see plainely that beside the sentence of death Cap. 6.31 which Dauid iustifieth with an oath the punishment specified in the law is doubled nay the incresse of the punishment appointed by the law is cleerely made good in the Prouerbs of Salomon where it is sayd that a thiefe being taken shall restore seuen fold or giue all the substance that he hath Rom. 13.4 and touching the christian Magistrate S. Paul saith 1. Tim. 5.20 that the wicked should feare the sword of vengeance which God hath put in his hand where feare is made the end of punishment as it is in Timothy where the same Apostle saith them that sinne rebuke openly that the rest may feare but if open rebuking did not strike such a feare as bridled sinners from corrupting their wayes then Timothy was to proceede to a more heauye censure that might worke this feare and so keepe downe sinne from multiplying in the Church and euen so ought the ciuill Magistrate to temper penall lawes in the ciuill state that euill disposed men may feare and neuer to take his lawes to be sufficiently penall but still to increase the terrour of them till feare to doe euill be sufficiently planted and this equitie doth the Lord himselfe retaine in his owne displeasure or indignation against sinne Psal 90.11 for so the great Prophet of God Moses teacheth vs in these words thereafter as thou art feared so is thy displeasure wherefore these two displeasure and feare are like the two buckets of a Well whereof the one commeth vp when the other goeth downe and the one is at the highest when the other is at the lowest briefely then to conclude as the Lord saw the punishment appointed in the law powerfull enough at that time and a long time after to worke feare in that Nation and State but yet was increased afterward by the Iewish Magistrates as they saw the disposition of the people to require it so the christian Magistrate finding by experience that the state and condition of his time and countrey is more desperate and lesse fearefull to robbe and steale then the Iewes were and so not to be ruled without a greater sharpnesse must needs whe this sworde and strike deeper then the Iewish Magistrate that he may be feared The Dialogue Sestio III. Tradition PAp I will a It is better to omit them then to speake of them so childishly as you haue done of the rest omit those other pointes of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture for breuities sake and passe vnto the searching of the second mortall wound which as I sayd you haue giuen vnto your owne cause reseruing your answere to the rest vnto your better leasure and premeditation yet by the way let mée shew you the great difference betwéene the antiquitie and you in this point b VVe can ackdowledge no such traditions who receiued the traditions deliuered by the Apostles without writing and continued and obserued from hand to hand with no lesse reuerence then they did the written Scriptures Irenaeus saith of the heretickes of his time that when the Scriptures were alledged against them they would answere that the Scriptures could not be vnderstood of those that were ignorant of the traditions and that when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles and kept in the church by succession of Bishops were obiected they would answere that they had more vnderstanding then the Bishops or the Apostles themselues and that they alone had found out the trueth lib. 3. cap. 2. whereby you may see that the c They might better doe it then then you now Catholiks in the first age of the Church did alledge against the hereticks of that time Scripture and Traditions euen as the catholikes of this time do alledge the same against the heretickes of this time and herein onely consisteth the difference when Scriptures are alledged against the heretickes of this time they doe flie to the interpretation when the interpretation of the Bishops that is of the ancient catholicke Doctors is produced against them they answere in effect that they haue more vnderstanding then the Bishoppes and that they alone haue found the trueth when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles are d You may sooner alledge them then prooue that the Apostles deliuered them alledged they answere that the Apostles did leaue none such or if they did that they are not to bee receiued vnlesse they can bee prooued out of the canonicall Scriptures thus you appeale from traditions to Scripture when scripture is brought against you you appeale to the interpretation and from the interpretation of the fathers to the interpretation of Caluin or to the e This is but the imagination of your brayne imagination of your owne braine as to the supreame Iudge and primum mobile of all your religion but let vs procéede in shewing the great difference betwéene the fathers you herein Epiphanius O portet autem traditione vti non enim omnia a diuina Scriptura accipi possunt c. Wee ought to vse traditions beeause all things cannot bee learned out of the holy Scripture And a little after it followeth Tradiderunt itaque sancti Des Apostoli peccatum esse post dicretam virginitatem nubere lib. 2. to 2. haeres 61. The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered that after the vow of virginitie it is sinne to marrie The same father for the confutation of Aerius vseth the authoritie of the tradition of the Apostles haeres 75. and for the confutation of Seuerus hee voucheth a place out of the booke a Then the Apostles deliuered them written in a booke of the Apostles Constitutions haeres 45. Saint Augustine Many things which are not found in the writings of the Apostles b How can it be knowne whether this beleefe were right or wrong are beleeued to haue beene deliuered by the Apostles by tradition because they are obserued through the vniuersall world de baptis cont Donat lib. 2. fo 2. The same Author saith that the vniuersall Church doth obserue as a tradition of the fathers that when mention is made of the dead at the tim of the sacrifice that they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should bee offered for them de verb Apost serm 32. Saint Chrysostome citeth a place out of the
vnto you than to seeke so ridiculously f It is better prooued than you can proue your Traditions to prooue it by testimonie of Scripture The ancient Catholickes as you haue heard did vse the g They might better doe it then than you now authoritie of Tradition for the conuincing of Heresies yet was there neuer any of those Heretickes that denyed the authoritie of Traditions because the Catholicks did not obserue all the Traditions which were left by the Apostles Saint Augustine in the place by me aboue alleaged where he saith That we ought to beleeue many things which are not contained in the writings of the Apostles nor in the councels of their Successors as Traditions deliuered by the Apostles because they are obserued through the vniuersall Church doth giue vs an infallible rule for the true discerning of those Traditions of the Apostles which we are bound to follow embrace of which sort is all the doctrine of the Catholicke which is not found in the written Scriptures and surely this is so certaine and direct h This rule cracks the crowne of Poperie a rule that it cannot deceiue or mislead vs for can we imagine that a i The Apostles planted no weeds but the enuious man that loued Poperie Mat. 13.25 wéede not planted by the Apostles should spring vp ouer-spread the vniuersall Church remaine and continue from age to age be deliuered from Bishop to Bishop that so many generall Councels in the meane time should be assembled for the extirpation of such Bastard plants and that so many Catholicke Doctors in the meane time should write against heresies and yet that such a wéede should still k Antichrist did worke in Pauls time and must work still till he bee abolished by the brightnes of Christs comming 2. Thes 2 7.8 remaine without checke or contradiction Contrariwise these Traditions deliuered by the Apostles which are nowe generally abolished through the vniuersall Church as the Apostles who were directed by the Spirite of God did first institute them for the benefite of that state of the Church wherein they were ordained euen so when times haue altered the state of the Church the Apostles Successors directed by the same Spirit l Had they no other direction but the Spirite take heed you bee not an Anabaptist haue altered or abolished them for the like benefit of the Church In the Apostles time when the Ceremonies of the lawe were lately abolished the Iewes and the Gentiles intermingled and people flocked together from all parts of the world to heare the doctrine of the Apostles and to see the miracles which God did worke by them the communitie of all thinges the prohibition of eating of blood and the office of widowes was profitable for that state of the Church and m A grosâ—e ouersight vniuersally practised but when that state of the Church was altered all those ordinances were altered with no lesse benefite of the Church than before they were obserued Pro. If the generall practise of the vniuersall Church be the rule wherby to discerne the Doctrine which we ought to obserue by the Tradition then is all your Doctrine which is not grounded vpon the Scriptures not warranted by your owne rule because it is not practised vniuersally for the contrarie is practised by the greater part of Christendome Pap. This rule was sufficient before Martin Luthers time for then was the Catholicke Religion n It was neuer vniuersall and it was hereticall both before and after Luthers time vniuersall and therefore I desire to learne of you how since that time the sufficiencie thereof should be impaired for if then it was a fault in Luther to dissent from the vniuersall Church how can the same doctrine which was naught in him be good in his Disciples Pro. The Greeke Church did celebrate the Feast of Easter vpon the 14. day of the month of March by Tradition of the Apostles the Latine Church did celebrate the same feast vpon the Sunday nexte following after the fourteenth day of the Moone of March if the said 14. day happened not vpon the Sunday by Tradition also the like difference was betweene them for the vse of leauened or vnleauened bread in the administration of the Sacrament eyther of them grounding their doctrine vpon the Tradition now if you will confesse that the Traditions of the Apostles were not contrary vnto themselues you see how vncertaine and dangerous it is to ground our faith vpon vnwritten Traditions Pa. a A paultry cauill The Lutherans and Caluinists hold contrary opinions either of them grounding his doctrine vpon the word of God will you thereupon conclude that it is a dangerous matter for vs to ground our faith vpon the worde of God Pro. The comparison is not alike for in the one case the question is whether of them hath the true Tradition and in the other whether of them doth rightly interpret the Scripture which both parties do agree to be the word of God Pa. If I had said how dangerous it is for euery man to ground his faith vpon b VVhy not his owne as well as another mans I must like it and so make it my owne before I can beleeue it his owne interpretation you had béene preuented of this answere but you doe mistake the matter in part for it appeareth by Epiphanius haeres 70. that this difference betwéene the Latine and Greeke Church concerning the celebration of Easter did grow vpon c As though the Apostles did not pract se it in their owne persons in both Churches but onely deliuer it by TraditioÌ„ the interpretation of the Tradition but the rule before mentioned prescribed by Saint Augustine for the discerning of those Traditions which wée are bound to imbrace and follow doth frée you from all this supposed danger for if the question be of such a point of doctrine which is not conteined in the word of God and yet notwithstanding is practised of some particular Churches people or nations but not vniuersally through the whole world such a point of doctrine wée are not bound by the said rule to receiue as a Tradition left by the Apostles yet notwithstanding if such a point of doctrine bée not contrary to the word of God those churches or countries where such doctrine is practised ought to receiue and reuerence the same as a doctrine left vnto them by their spirituall pastors and superintendents for their spirituall benefit concerning which you shall finde sufficient for your satisfaction in those aduertisements set downe by S. Bede which Pope Gregory sent vnto S. Austine the Monke for answere of this very question concerning the diuersitie of customes vsed in diuers nations in matters of Church gouernement But let it bee d You cannot chuse but graunt it granted that it was doubtfull for a time whether the Greeke or the Latine Church did obserue the right Tradition the like doubt and question c You can be
so by consequent of the Churches of Asia notwithstanding all he said before of their spirituall Pastors and Superintendents shall I now tell you what I thinke verily if this Tradition of the feast of Easter and that other of the age of Christ so credibly reported so confidently auouched deliuered ouer to so few hands and so short a succession were found hollow and false at the heart in the very nexte age that followed the Apostles and at length as the receiued opinion is condemned for heresie I know not how a man should frame himselfe to beleeue such Traditions to be sound and vndefiled which haue no such pregnant euidence and haue runne through the hands of so many pitchmongers as haue liued successiuely so many hundred yeeres after the death of Victor and Irenaeus Yea but saith he this was not vniuersally receiued and obserued but onely of those Churches in Asia and therefore we are not bound by S. Austines rule to receiue it as a Tradition from the Apostles well then succession from hand to hand and Bishop to Bishop in particular Churches is not sufficient to make a Tradition apostolicall let him hold that without partialitie as well in Italy as in Asia Howbeit Polycrates and those worthy Bishops and Martyrs of Asia may not be ruled by S. Austines rule and if that Epistle of Polycrates subscribed Synodically by so great a multitude of Bishops may be credited this Tradition cannot chuse but be Apostolicall and so vniuersall in nature though particular in practise but what shall wee doe on the other side with the Tradition of the West Church which was further fetched then the other by so many winters and sommers as S. Iohn liued after Peter and Paul that is to say thirtie winters at the least and so many sommers wherein this westerne Tradition might well bee either Sunne-burnt or weather beaten shall we follow S. Austines rule here too and so beleeue neither the one nor the other to be Apostolicall ware that friend Papist if ye meane to goe for a good Catholicke yet it is cleare that the Tradition of the west Church was not vniuersally receiued no more then the other of the East before the Nicene Councell therefore either S. Austines rule was then no rule or else no Christian for the space of 300. yeeres was bound to beleeue that the one was left by S. Peter and S. Paul no more then the other by S. Philip and S. Iohn nay further we reade not that any Canon was made contra Quartadecimanos in the Nicene Councell whereby Epiphanius or any other father should score them vp for heretickes but onely that it was thought meete the Tessaredecatites beeing few Euseb in vita Constant. lib. 3 cap 13. 17. Socr. lib. 5. cap. 20. 21. Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 18. 19. Can. 8. Apost should yeelde to the greater number now whether they yeelded or yeelded not we haue no sure euidence onely we may strongly coniecture they did not yeeld by that we reade of this matter in Socrates and Sozomen as for that peremptory magisterial Canon which casteth euery Bishop Presbyter and Deacon out of the Church if he celebrate his Easter ante vernum aequinoctium cum Iudaeis it is not knowne where or when or by whom or what it was enacted and so consequently where or when or by whom or what it should be obeyed Wherefore I for my part cannot disallow the resolution of Socrates that the feast of Easter was neuer imposed vpon the Church by the Apostles but brought to obseruation by the free choise and liking of Christian nations and so continued by long custome till by the brawling and immoderatenesse of some wayward men the Church was constrayned to worke out her owne peace by vniformitie Now to Augustines rule beside a number of instances which may be brought against it as namely the dignitie of Alexandria ouer Aegypt Lybia and Pentapolis and the dignitie of Rome ouer the West prouinces which the Councell of Nice groundeth neither vpon Scripture Apostle Can. 6. Ierom ad Euagr in epist ad Tot. Aug. epist 19. nor Councell but old custome as also the appropriating of the name Bishop to the chiefe Ministers wherein the custome of the Church no Tradition or Councell generally preuayled to this rule I say that it cracks the very crowne of the popish church for nothing not conteined in the scriptures could be vniuersally obserued but eyther Traditions from the Apostles or else the Decrees of plenarie Councels it is cleere that the Popes vniuersall power is shutte out of doores and therefore to requite the intricate Dilemma he talkes of let me reason thus with your Papist The Pope either hath power to impose decrees and constitutions vpon the vniuersall Church of Christ or else he hath not if hee haue then Austines rule is crooked and may deceiue vs if he haue not then the Popes vniuersall shephardship ouer the whole Church is come to nothing Howbeit I beseech you marke further how hee hudleth vp contraries and so marreth the fashion of his owne rule for if all things obserued vniuersally must be followed and imbraced as Traditions from the Apostles if they bee not contained eyther in scriptures or Councels then no man may presume vpon any alteration of states and times to abolish them if they may abolish them and alter them then are they not bound to follow imbrace them adde hereunto that as the Apostles successors as hee saith might and haue alteted and abolished apostolicall Traditions generally practised in the vniuersall Church so I would see some reason why they may not stil vpon the like alteration of circumstances abolish more of them and so it will follow that all the doctrine of the Catholicks not found in scripture hangs vpon circumstances and may if it please the Apostles successors be quite abolished hath he not spun a faire threed thinke you that thus indangereth his owne religion yet he croweth lowd after all this fond feather-fluttering that all is as cleare as the Sunne yet neuer durst any Catholicke father or church one or other set downe this remnant of Traditions and vnite it to the body of the canonicall Scripture which infallibly demonstrateth that all is not as cleare as the Sunne and it is further to bee obserued how hee is faine to clowt out Saint Austines rule with a new patch which marres all for when he saw that vniuersall practise is not enough to proue a Tradition apostolicall vnlesse it be traced still downeward from the Apostles to our dayes Are kept he is not content with Custodiuntur which he findes in Austine but addeth haue bin vniuersally practised from age to age and from Bishop to Bishop which no man aliue is possibly able to make good in any one vnwritten Tradition popish or catholicke vnlesse the Church had continually appointed in euery age such an one as Sir Francis Drake that should trauell all the worlde ouer from
Bishop to Bishop to know and certifie the state of al Churches and yet that policy could not worke faith further then the credite of the man which is a poore stay for a christian conscience Verily the credite of men is but a sandye foundation to build vpon in matters not written seeing your Papist was so fouly ouerseene in the community of all things a matter written in great letters and so determined in the worde of God that all open eyes may see and perceiue that it was neuer vniuersally practised and whereas it pleaseth him to talke of weedes and bastard plants that they could not still remaine without checke or contradiction I am sure he hath read in Matthew Sap. 13.25 that while men slept the enuious man sewd tares among the wheat and that both should grow together vntill haruest and therefore no maruell though the mystery of iniquitie grew on stil by little and little by reason of mens sleepines and wrought closely without any effectuall contradiction otherwise it had not beene a mystery yet notwithstanding when once it was growne so out of fashion that men saw how vgly and mishapen it was 2. Thes 2.7.8 then the spirite of the Lords mouth began to consume it and when haruest is come it shall be abolished neither is it maruell that Councels and catholicke Doctors slept while the tares of Anti-christian Religion were a sowing and so ignorantly gaue their helping hand to the inthronizing of the man of sinne Apoc. 2.13 c. for the Angell of Pergamus was a faithfull seruant of God yet Satan had erected himselfe a throne in his Church to teach the doctrine of Baalam Apo. 2.19 c. and the Nicholaitans which God hated the like may be sayd of that worthy Angell of Thyatira of whom God gaue testimonie that hee knewe his loue seruice faith patience and workes to be more at the last than at the first yet hee suffered the woman Iezabel to deceiue the seruants of God The Dialogue Sectio V. PAp Now let vs returne from whence we haue digressed that is to say vnto the searching of the second mortall wound which as I haue sayd you haue giuen vnto your owne cause by a How prooue you that wee haue excluded them excluding out of your Church all the ancient Catholick Fathers and Doctors for admit that you could by expounding wresting of scriptures intrude your selfe into such a Church as holdeth no Doctrine but such as is warranted by the canonicall Scriptures b Nonsequitur yet must you leaue out of the same Church as Heretickes and Scismatickes all the ancient Fathers and Bishops of the Latine and Greeke Churches neither are you c you measure vs by your selues able to name any time or place where or when your Church was extant or any one Bishop or principall member thereof Pro. What points of Doctrine are they which the antiquitie did hold without warrant of scripture what ancient Fathers Doctors Bishops were they that held such doctrine Pap. In a word they were all Papists which being prooued you will not denie the consequent d All the Fathers held not these points and some of these points were bastards and haue no knowne Fathers they held prayer for the dead purgatorie transubstantiation they offered a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead they prayed to Saints held also vowes of chastitie the vnlawfulnesse of Priests marriage and the descention of Christs soule into Hell call you not this Papistry I am sure you had rather be in your Church alone than to be troubled with such papisticall Companions now shall you heare e All this hath nothing in it but facing the opinion of euerie Doctor deliuered by his owne penne in such plaine words as you shall not be able by any glosse or distinction to peruert but must néedes confesse that they were all out of your new Church I will begin with prayer for the dead and so goe on in order The Answere THe second wound is come at length to the searching namely that all the ancient Fathers and Bishops must bee excluded as heretickes and scismatickes out of our Church and why so Marry because they held certaine points of Doctrine not warranted by the canonicall Scriptures is not this a deepe wound thinke ye wee say indeed that no other doctrine ought to bee curtant in the Church but such as hath the image and superscription of the Canonicall Scriptures but doe you therefore say that all such as haue beene carried beyond those limits through ignorance or infirmitie Cyprian lib. 2. Epist 3. are to be put out for wranglers Si quis de antecessoribus nostris vel ignoranter vel simpliciter non hoc obseruauit tenuit quod nos dominus facere exemplo magisterio suo docuit potest simplicitati eius de indulgentia domini venia concedi nobis vero non poterit ignosci qui nunc à domino admoniti instructi sumus If any of our Predecessors either of ignorance or simplicity did not obserue and keepe this which the Lord by his example and commandement hath taught the Lord of his mercie may pardon his simplicitie but wee after wee haue beene admonished and instructed so of the Lord may looke for no pardon Thus sayd Cyprian of the Aquarians that were before him and so say we of the ancient Fathers that haue added the timber hay and stubble of traditions to the gold siluer and precious stones of Scripture howbeit see I pray you how your Papist hanges the principall pillars of his Religion vpon tradition and all to wring out the Fathers out of our Church The Fathers were all Papists and held prayer for the dead purgatorie transubstantiation Sacrifice for quicke and dead prayer to dead Saints vowes of chastitie the single life of Priests and the descention of Christs soule into hell all these trim points of learning you shall heare now so prooued by tradition out of euerie Doctor as you must confesse to bee super excellent yet take heed you do not expound these words euerie Doctor heretically after the imagination of your owne braine for I dare assure you he neuer saw the couers of euerie Doctor and therefore you may not vnderstand them simply as they sound but charitably for so many as haue writings extant and could be intreated of this suddain to speake an ambiguous word or two in these matters The Dialogue Sectio VI. Prayer for the dead EPiphanius lib. 3. To. primo Cap. 75. It appeareth there that the Hereticke Aerius was of your opinion a And of yours too for you dare not pray for the release of incurable sinnes as the Church then did looke bet-vpon Epiphanius concerning Prayer for the dead and concerning the feast of Easter and the equalitie of Ministers he was a flat Puritane For he held that there was no difference betwéen a Priest and a Bishop he vsed the b
Offices of the liuing are here sayd to procure greater mercie at Gods hands than the sinnes of the dead haue deserued where obserue that the sway of the time so carried both Paulinus and Austine two worthy renowned Bishops that the one would not yeeld though he could not tell how to answere Saint Pauls authoritie 2. Cor. 5.10 Cap. 7. par 3. and the other sheltered himselfe as Denys doth in his Hierarchy vnder a short heeld answere that 's readie to fall backward if you do but look vpon it Paul saith We must receiue euery man according to that he hath done in the bodie either good or euill Here Paulinus is at his wits end and cannot tell how this can agree with prayers sacrifices almes and the Patronage of dead Martyrs and such like humane inuentions and yet he stickes in the mire still and desires Austine to help him out see now how Austine answeareth Meritum per quod ista profint si nullum comparatum est in hac vita frustra quaeritur post hanc vitam If there be no merit by which these things may doe good Libr. de cura pro mortu Cap. 1. gotten in this life it is in vaine to seek it after this life And a little after Vt hoc quod impenditur possit ei prodesse post corpus in ea vita acquisitum est quam gessit in corpore That this which is bestowed may profit him after the bodie it is purchased in this life which hee liued in the bodie But what merite is this hee talkes of doth it respect God or man if man then man must reward it if God why the Apostle assureth vs by Cōmission frō God 2. Cor. 5.10 that we shall receiue good according to that good we haue done in the flesh and therfore all such praiers sacrifices are superfluous again the praiers sacrifices of the liuing depending vpon our former merits must needs procure either lesse or the same or more mercy than wee haue merited in our life time if lesse then they hinder vs if the same then do they not further vs if more then doe we not receiue according to the good that we haue done in the body as Paul saith but according to the praiers sacrifices of our friends Here your Papist hath a Dilemma a Trilemma too to worke vpon if he can do any thing Austine Paulinus shall be beholding to him if nothing thē Paul the Apostle must haue the victory In the mean time the verie same Dilemma and Trilemma too must repell the force of the next place cited out of Austines Enchiridion Cap. 100. for there Austine addeth immediatly Sed eis hac prosunt qui cum viuerēt vt haec sibi postea prodesse possēt meruerunt But these things profit thē who when they liued deserued that they might profit them afterward Wherfore Austine vsing the same shift to rid his hands of Saint Pauls authority Vid. Lumb Eb. 4. distinct 45. D. I must vse the same answere to defend it if two men of equall merite be inequally rewarded because prayers and sacrifices are offered for the one and not for the other then euerie man receiueth not according to that himselfe hath done in the flesh but according to that other men doe for him when he is out of the flesh Howbeit this second place of Austine speakes not of prayers but sacrifices and almes giuen in the Church which belongeth to the fourth point of doctrine to wit sacrifice for the quicke and dead if your Papist thinke that sacrifice and prayers goe together let him take heed hee bee not deceiued for Cyprian speaking of Laurentius and Ignatius Martyrs saith thus Lib. 4. Epist 5. de verb. Apo. serm 17. in Ioh. tract 84. Sacrificia pro eis semper vt meministis offerimus We alwayes as you know offer sacrifices for them Yet Austine saith that Martyrs are not prayed for and that it is iniurious to pray for them but because hee dispatcheth two of his points at once let this place and some other of Cyprian strike some stroke in this question of Sacrifice wee offer Sacrifices for Martyrs saith he Quoties Martyrum passiones dies anniuersaria commemoratione celebramus As often as wee celebrate the sufferings dayes of the Martyrs with a yeerely remembrance And this sacrificing pro Martyribus Austine himselfe confesseth to be nothing else but praise thankesgiuing and so hee celebrated the day of Cyprians Martyrdome yea but though Martyrs bee not prayed for Serm. de Cyp. Mart. in oper Cypr. when they are remembred at the Altar yet all other which are there mentioned are prayed for saith Austine in the third place and in the last place sacrifices saith he for those that be Valdè boni verie good be thankesgiuing but for those that be not Valde mali Verie euill they bee propitiatorie I see what Saint Austine saith yet all other beside Martyrs stood not in need of releefe as namely the Patriarckes the Prophets the Apostles the Euangelists the Confessors the Bishops the Anachorits and our most holy vnspotted most blessed Ladie Gods Mother the Virgine Marie All these I trowe were not Martyrs yet were they all prayed for in the lyturgies of Basile Chrysostome and Epiphanius not to releeue them but to glorifie God in his seruants and to profite the Church by commemoration of their vertues it cannot be denied but God blessed his Church continually with many such as were Valde boni beside Martyrs and therfore either prayers and Sacrifices go not alwayes one way or els some of these places of Austine must needs fall Howbeit to returne to Saint Cyprian we read that it was decreed by his predecessors that if any brother at his death should leaue the execution of his will to any of the Clergie he should not be offered nor sacrificed for now followeth the approbation and practise of this decree in in these words Cum victor frater noster de saeculo excedens contra formam nuper in concilio à sacerdotibus datam Libr. 1. epist 9. Gemintum Faustinum praesbyterum ausus sit actorem constituere non est quo pro dormitione eius apud vos fiat oblatio aut de precatio aliqua nomine eius in ecclesia frequentetur vt sacerdotum decretum religiosè necessariè factum seruetur c. Seeing victor our brother departing out of this world durst contrary to the order taken of late by the Priests in the Councell appoint Geminius Faustinus a Priest his executor there is no reason why you should make any offering for his decease or that the Church should meete to deprecation for his sake that the religious and necessarie ordinance of the Priests may be obserued Thus farre Cyprian out of which I gather that if these offerings and sacrifices and deprecations had bin made for refrigeration of soules departed then Cyprian and his Collegues and predecessors that made and executed
not think his knot is yet loosed there is nothing saith hee in the Sacrament that is incomprehensible but Epiphanius saith not so though he say it neither can it bee inferred out of quot sunt similia sunt for the Image of God was comprehensible in Adam though it be defaced in vs and things may be Similia secundum magis minus but not to multiply quarrels let vs graunt that he saith to bee true what then Marrie then I would learne saith hee if it bee not Christs true bodie really present but a figure therof what wonder or incomprehensible matrer is there here is a little prety It three times repeated in the knitting of this knot It is his bodie It is not like to a naturall bodie and if it be not Christs bodie c. I beseech you what meanes this man by his It is It something or is It nothing or what is It Epiphanius saith It is of a round forme therefore It is not accidens for rotundum is not accidens but rotunditas if It be a substance then It must bee either the bodie of Christ and so the bodie of Christ is of a round forme or else it must bee bread and so indeed all the three Euangelists are bold to call It Math. 26 26. Mark 14 22. Luk. 22 19. 1. Cor. 10 16.17 1. Cor. 11 23 26 27 28. and so is the Apostle Paul twise in one Chapter and foure times in another and hee himselfe for all this mincing of the mattter comes downe in the end out of the clouds and confesseth the Sacrament to be of a round forme whereof it followeth that it is neither an accident nor the reall substance of Christs bodie but bread as the Scripture cals it Now for the vnloosing of his knot I say that it is incomprehensible howe a round peece of bread should bee such a figure as is worthy to bee called the bodie of Christ and so to exhibite and conuey the graces and merites of Christs passion into vs that our sinnes are remitted our faith encreased and wee incorporate and made members of his bodie of his flesh and of his bones Let him shew me that this is not farre beyond the comprehension of mans reason and I will giue him his asking But for a full cleering of Epiphanius it is to bee remembred that Manes and his disciples liuing vpon the sweat of other mens browes and supposing all things to haue life soule as man had were wont to consecrate the bread and wine that was giuen them to fill their slowe bellies withall after this sort Ego non seminauite non messui te non molui in clibanum non misi alius obtulit comedi innoxius sum c. I sowed thee not I reape thee not I ground thee not I baked thee not another offered it and I did eate I am innocent c. Wherunto Epiphanius answereth ipsi non recidunt botrū sed edunt botrū Haeres 66. circa medium vtrum grauius est etenim vindemians semel recidit botrū qui vero comedit per dētes sectores ac manducatores singula grana edomat per hoc magis multipliciter torquet ac secat non amplius similis erit ei qui semel secuit is qui manducauit consumpsit They cut not the bunch of grapes but they eat it which is greater the Grape-gatherer did once cut the vine but he that eateth it doth cut and grinde with his teeth all the graces and in the respect he doth torment it much more and hee that hath eaten and consumed it is no longer like to him that onely once cut it You heare what Epiphanius saith for confutation of the Manichies Now cōsider how that he saith can possibly be good if the liuing sensitiue bodie of Christ blood and all be eaten of the Catholickes might not the Manichies then reply that they were more to be borne withall that were compelled by hunger and thirst to eat and drinke liuing things of meane regard crying for griefe Ego non seminaui te non messui non molui c Than Epiphanius and his Catholickes that presumed to eat the liuing flesh of Christ and to drinke his blood verily Epiphanius being learned wise would not haue left his reason in this case wide open without either fence or shelter against the aduersarie if the reall presence and manducation of the bodie and blood of Christ had been catholickely beleeued in his time Peter in the Acts when a voice from heauen commanded him to kil and eat though he were hungry and in a traunce yet he forgat not the law of God but answered God forbid Lord for nothing polluted or vncleane hath euer entred into my mouth and shall wee thinke that the same Peter when our Sauiour saith take Act. 10 10. c. Et cap. 11 5 c. eat this is my bodie and take drinke this is my blood would neuer make any question neither he nor any of his fellow Apostles against the eating of mans flesh and drinking mans blood if they had vnderstood the wordes of Christ after the popish fashion Euen so hee that thinketh that Epiphanius holding the reall eating and drinking of the bodie and blood of Christ would dispute so loosely as he doth against the Manichies must needs thinke withall that his wits were in a deeper traunce than Saint Peters and so fitter to gather wooll than to confute heretickes The Dialogue Sectio XVII I Will leaue this knot for you to vnloose at better leasure and assay you with another argument to prooue the a This will you neuer prooue while you liue nor your child after you consent of all ancient Fathers and the vniforme practise of the vniuersall Church in this doctrine of transubstantiation but first I will set downe certaine places out of the Fathers whereon to ground mine argument although I haue alreadie vsed the same places for the proofe of prayer for the dead This Custome saith b These places are answered all of them Saint Austine the vniuersall Church doth obserue being deliuered by tradition from the Elders that whereas at the time of the Sacrifices commemoration is made of all soules departed in the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ they should be prayed for and that the sacrifice also should be offered for them De verb. Apost Sermone 32. You shall also finde that there was a Sacrifice offered for the quicke and dead in Saint Ambrose his first prayer Praeparans ad missam and in Tertullians Booke de Monogamia about the middest of the Booke the place beginneth dic mihi soror in pace c. Hereby it is manifest that c How many ages were they I pray you in all these ages the Church did d That is to say Signum repraesentationem sacrificij Aug. de ciuit dei lib. 10. cap. 15 offer a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead which being agréed vpon
wiped away This might serue for answere of this friuolous obiection concerning the instrabilitie of Saint Austines doctrine but because it is a string much harped on let vs assay by harping whether it be a true cord or not now do you k Be like you will not know wheere vnlesse it be shewed you k This place of Austine is cleere against limbus puerorum shew me where Saint Austine doth denie purgatorie as I haue shewed you where he hath affirmed it Pro. Austine in his 14. Chapter De verbis Apostoli saith thus The Lord who shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead as the Gospel saith shall diuide them all into two parts whereof one shall bee placed on his right hand and the other on his left to those on his right hand he shall say Come ye blessed c. The one he calleth his kingdome the other damnation with the deuill there is no third place left for infants and a little after he concludeth thus if there shall be a right hand and a left since we haue none other place by the Gospel behold the kingdome of heauen is on the right hand Pa. Héere is a faire l There be fairer showes in Austine then this shew but all is not gold that glistereth S. Austine in that place hauing to deale with the Pelagians who held that children which die before baptisme should by reason of their innocencie attaine vnto eternall saluation but not vnto the kingdome of heauen and that children are to be baptized not for eternall life but for the kingdome of heauen for confutation of that heresie doth there labour to prooue that whosoeuer doth not appertaine to the kingdome of heauen doth appertaine vnto damnation his argument is this At the generall iudgement Christ shall diuide the quicke and the dead into two parts whereof one shal be on his right hand another on his left therefore children which die before baptisme must either be on the right hand to whom the kingdome of heauen doth appertaine or on the left whose portion is m That is damnation into euerlasting fire with the diuell and his Angels Mat. 25.41 I trow this is hell not limbus puerorum damnation for saith he there remaineth no third place for infants What maketh this place against purgatorie for they that doe allow low of Purgatorie doe hold also that there are but two places to wit heauen and hell and that whosoeuer shall be placed in purgatorie for a time doth notwithstanding appertaine to one of those two places for a third place they likewise doe not know behold how easie a matter it is to carpe at contrariety in any mans writings be they neuer so plaine and perspicuous n Heere the flood-gate is opened to a great deale of prophane and irreligious talke euen so doe the Iewes taxe the writings of the Euangelists with contrarietie and great appearance thereof there seemeth to be therein S. Iohn saith He that is borne of God sinneth not And againe in the same Epistle he saith If we say we haue no sinne we deceiue our selues and the trueth is not in vs The Bee sucketh honie and the Spider poyson take away the authoritie of the Church Councels and Fathers and leaue euery man to his owne o As though fancy had no place in Councels and fathers but only in Scriptures fancie in the interpretation of Scriptures and open the fountain of all heresie and Atheisme After your single incounter with Saint Austine you seeke to ouerthrow the credite of all the Doctors at once by taxing them with many grosse errors I graunt the doctors had their errours and imperfections so had S. Peter for S. Paul withstood him to his face and p VVe doe not say they are are your new writers of the purest stampe free trow ye much lesse are Cronographers writers of ciuil histories what then shall we q No but resolute diuines become Scepticke Philosophers what shall we not beléeue that which they do write out of their own knowledge and wherof themselues were eye witnesses and consequently shall we beleeue nothing but what we doe r Yes what we taste smell and feele too Lord what vaine chat is this heare and see If you will affoord an Historiographer any credite in these cases affoord the Catholicke doctor the like in the same case beléeue that which he writeth as an eye witnesse if not beleeue an vniforme consent and harmonie of diuers of them in a matter of fact confirmed by the testimonie of their owne eyes if not yet beléeue them at the least wherein they doe produce themselues for eye witnesses and ſ All this is but impudent facing a thousand other like witnesses with them of this last sort are most of the testimonies of the doctors which I haue produced against you they write that prayers were made for the dead that sacrifice was offered for the quicke and the dead that it was vniuersally obserued in all Churches they were present themselues and heard and saw it done and thousands moe with them and were themselues principall agents in the doing of it Now let vs see what those errors bée wherewith you seeke to bring the auncient doctors out of credite Irenaeus held t Belike Irenaeus neuer heard any newes of Purgatory that the soules of the righteous should rest in a place for them appointed of God vntill the generall resurrection that Satan did not know his owne damnation before the comming of Christ Tertullian that second marriages were not lawfull Hilarie that Christ did walke vpon the water by the nature of his bodie Cyprian held rebaptization and so might I passe through the rest of these and such like errors u As though they were not deliberate assertions but only scapes escaped in the writings of the fathers Erasmus alleaged a threefolde reason First the points wherein they erred were not as then called in question or if they were the Church had not as then determined of them Secondly they were constrained for the confutation of heresies to handle such high mysteries as were beyond their capacitie Thirdly in dealing earnestly against heretickes they were sometime with feruor carried into the contrarie extreame Now will I shew you the difference beeweene these and the like errours escaped in the writings of the fathers and those points of doctrine wherein I haue cited them as witnesses against you the one they deliuer as their owne priuate opinion the other set downe as a doctrine x How knew they that or you that they did so generally receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church the one is as the Prouerbe saith but one doctors opinion the other an vniforme consent of many the one the Church hath reiected the other it hath receiued and practiseth Thus y So may you see you haue sayd nothing may you see the reason why the doctors are to be reiected in the one and receiued in
the other why we doe not exclude them out of our Church as you haue excluded them out of yours Pro. You shall find in the Fathers as many places against those points of doctrine as you shall find for them and besides that many bookes fathered vpon the fathers are bastards Pa. It is a great argument of a y It will at length pull the crowne from your Popes head as desperate as you make it desperate cause when we sée the authoritie of any authenticke writer so plaine and direct against vs as it cannot be auoyded by any glosse or colourable interpretation to seeke to euade by carping at contrarietie in the same writer and in so doing wée shall shew our selues more desirous to obscure a truth than to bring it to light touching your last obiection I am content vpon any reasonable cause of challenge to forbeare to vouch any booke that you shall suspect of bastardy Thus haue I answered all your cauils and calumniations obiected against the auncient doctors which is your last refuge for when you cannot tell how by some cunning interpretation or glosse to vnloose the knot your manner is to cut it in sunder and to breake away The Answere WEe are come now to a great deale of void talke of the errors of the fathers and doctors and Austines retracting and wauering in the doctrine of purgatorie The first is confessed not simply but vnder hope that wee will also confesse that the doctors were not onely admired for their learning pietie but accepted also for the principall workemen next vnto the Apostles which cannot be confessed without iniurie to the Euangelists and other that had extraordinary graces and power from aboue a long time after the Apostles Iren. lib. 2. 28. lib. 5. 1. Eusebius histo eccles lib. 3. 34 lib. 5. 7. 9. as appeareth in Irenaeus and Eusebius besides that we may not thinke a few fathers whose writings remaine extant to be excellenter workemen than a thousand other whose writings are lost and their names forgotten in the world These few doctors whose bookes wee haue were worthy men yet one more worthy than another and no one of them nor all of them together to be preferred to those that were before them And heere let it be obserued that Tertullian as he is a Montanist is set down for one of of these admirable doctors of the Church for he erred not in the case of second marriages while he was a Catholicke doctor but when he was an hereticke and fallen from the Church nay see further how intollerably hee defaceth the fathers when he goeth about to magnifie for if they looke vpon them to handle high mysteries beyond their capacitie and were caried in heat against heresie to the contrary extreame verily their learning and piety may well be doubted of and if they could not see the trueth vnlesse it were called into question determined by the Church there is no great reason why they should be so highly admired and had in reuerence What man why say you so the doctors had their errors and imperfections no otherwise then Saint Peter had whom Saint Paul withstood to his face and will you not admire and reuerence Saint Peter Yes sir that I will for wee speake not here of errors in liuing which neuer any but Christ was free from but errors in writing whereof Saint Peter was neuer guiltie and therefore bethinke you how this suspicious and irreuerend calling of Saint Peters credite into question to cloake the fathers errours withall can be the part of a good Catholicke we beleeue Saint Peter neuer erred in any thing he hath written but you shal hardly driue vs with all your wharting to beleeue the like of our new writers or your old doctors much lesse the autors of prophane Histories but why keepes this man all this doe trow ye would he haue vs pinne our religion vpon the sleeues of the doctors and ciuill Historiographers too will nothing else please him Yes hee tels you he will be content if you will credit an vniforme consent and harmonie of diuers doctors producing themselues for eye witnesses and a thousand other like witnesses with them well when I heare those thousand other speake then he shall haue my answere In the meane while haue we commended to him and tell him that I cannot beleeue a million of thousands when they say nothing and heere I beseech you note how his wit ebbes and his tongue flowes beyond the bankes of all possibilitie they write saith he that praying and sacrificing for the dead was vniuersally obserued in all Churches they were present themselues and hard and saw it done and thousands moe with them c. Quid audio Did they heare and see it done in all Churches vniuersally this is no lie my Lord and that 's all that I will say to it Now touching Austine we so much the more admire him in that he retracted his former errors as many as hee could well-obserue in his owne workes neither doe wee doubt but that he would haue retracted more if he had liued longer could haue considered deliberately of all that hee had written howbeit he wrote diuers bookes after his retractations neither could he so narrowly looke into euery corner of his workes but that many things worthy to be retracted slipt through his fingers to be short his retractations do euidently shew that as he was a good and an honest minded man so he altered in opinion as hee grew in yeeres and was better instructed by long experience and trauell in diuinitie and so consequently that he is so farre forth to bee receiued as he buildeth vpon the foundation of the canonicall scripture such building will stand without retracting all other doctrine as it begins in man so man may end it neither can it stand any longer than man listeth to vphold it This wauering in the matter of Purgatorie our Papist denieth impudently cryeth in an agony shew me where Saint Austine doth deny purgatorie as I haue shewed you he hath affirmed it alas he hath shewed Austines affirmation out of the counterfeit sermons and Homilies neuer either written or preached by Saint Austine which is a most simple kind of shewing but why doth he aske where Austine denieth purgatorie and neuer asketh one word where he doubteth of it These be fine fellowes that aske after such points as they thinke they can hold talke of and can suffer other things to passe by as if they saw him not Howbeit our Protestant heere cites a place out of Austines Sermons De verbis Apostoli which is little to the purpose Serm. 4. yet notwithstanding where our Papist answereth that he knoweth no third place for infants but either heauen or hell what doth he else but disclaime his limbus puerorum which Pope Innocent the third Cap. maiores extra de bapt and most of the schoolemen place aboue purgatorie and will needs haue it to be
or decree then all three is but one for one Doctors priuate opinion includeth a non-allowance or approbation of the Church Againe the foresayd points of Doctrine saith hee are set downe as receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church that 's the first vniformely consented vnto by many that 's the next receiued and practised by the Church that 's the last these three likewise for ought may appeare may goe for one and therefore this man delights rather in number than weight and layeth his learning abroad as wide and side as hee can to fray men rather than to teach them Howbeit if wee giue him his differences to be as many as he would haue them what differences be they Marry they be differences of errours from points of doctrine and what bee those points of Doctrine true or false Marry they bee true else the Church would not receiue them and praise them Why then you see this man laboureth to shew differences betweene errour and truth which is no controuersie let him shew those points of Doctrine to be true and we will easily yeeld that they differ from errour but if they be errours and falshoods in religion as they be indeed the consent of the Church cannot helpe them to bee truths It is a fond conceit to imagine that the Church receiueth practiseth nothing that is erroneous for if the Church cannot tread awrie why saith Chrysostome In oper imperf in Math. hom 49. Ne ipsis quidem ecclesijs credendū est nisi ea dicant vel faciant quae conuenientia sunt scripturis We are not beleeue the Churches themselues vnlesse they say and doe those thinges which are agreeable to the scriptures If an vniforme consent of many cannot erre why saith Austine Ad Paulum Apostolum ab omnibus qui aliter sentiunt literarum tractatoribus prouoco Epist 19 ad Ierom. I appeale to the Apostle Paul from all other learned men that thinke otherwise If the vniuersall Church can decree nothing but truth why saith the same Austine Ipsa plenaria concilia quae fiunt ex vniuerso orbe Christiano De bapt cont Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. saepe priora posterioribus emendantur Euen of plenarie Councels which are gathered out of all Christendome the former are mended by the latter And Gregorie Nazianzen Ad procopium Concilia non minuunt mala sed augent potius Councels doe not diminish but encrease euils rather As for the Church of Rome which our Papist takes for his vniuersall Church In Math. Can. 8. S. Hilarie giueth vs a rule to cast her state by saying Ecclesiae intra quas verbū Dei non vigilauerit naufragae sunt The Churches in which the word of God doth not watch haue suffered ship-wracke Wherefore if there be any grace in the Romish Church let mee councell her not to bragge and vaunt that Christ hath prayed for Peters faith Luk. 22.32 Math. 16.8 Luk. 22.57 and that she is built vpon a rocke that cannot be shaken for Saint Peters faith fayled almost as soone as our Sauiour had done praying and therefore there is no doubt but she may be shaken This is Saint Pauls councell too as well as mine for thus hee writes euen to the Church of Rome when she was in better case than she is now by size ase and the dice Rom. 11.20 c. Thou standest by faith bee not high minded but feare for if God spared not the naturall branches take heed he spare not thee for if thou continue not in Gods bountie thou shalt also be cut off Thus much of his differences now let vs see how he doth apply them to the assoyling of our Protestants obiections You may see the reason saith he why the Doctors are to be reiected in the one that 's in their priuate opinions and receiued in the other points of doctrine and why we doe not exclude them out of our Church as you haue excluded them out of yours You shall not need exclude them for they neither are nor euer were or will bee of your Church and where you say wee haue excluded them it is but a cast of your tongues office which cannot be made good by any of your differences we exclude their errours not them and these points how generally soeuer they were receiued and practised are no better than errours Howbeit I beseech you obserue the temeritie of this man who talkes thus hand ouer head of receiuing Fathers and yet some of these Fathers he nameth were schismatickes and heretickes as Tertullian for example who was not homo ecclesiae Contr. Heluid Austin de Haeres as Ierome saith and Saint Austine hath registred him for an Hereticke and Schismaticke too in his Booke de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum neither is Hilarie howsoeuer the Romish Church hath made him a Saint ouer hastily to be receiued De Trinitate libr. 10. if he spake as hee thought that Christ had Corpus ad patiendum non naturam ad dolendum A bodie to suffer not nature to be grieued Ibid. lib. 12. alibi and knew not whether the holy Ghost were God proceeding from the Sonne as well as the Father and to be adored as well as promerited Hierom. Ierome against the Luciferians saith That Hilarie did Segregare se cum suis vermitis nouum balneum aperire Did separate himselfe with his wormlings and open a new bath and wrote Bookes against the Church De haereticis rebaptizandis Of rebaptizing Heretickes Obserue further that our Papist reiects Ireneus Tertullian Hilarie and Cyprian in their priuate opinions which he specifieth and receiueth them in the other points in controuersie whereof they say nothing at all neither hath hee alleaged any one of these Fathers to that purpose but Tertullian onely who speakes not of these points after the popish fashion Is not this a proper reiecting and receiuing thinke ye he reiecteth for a priuate something and receiueth for an vniuersall nothing yet the more vniuersall an errour is the more hurtfull it is and therefore till he prooue these points to bee true as well as vniuersall hee doth confirme not answere our obiections yet were they neuer any of them so vniuersall as Cyprians rebaptization Austines necessitie of cōmunicating and some other errours of the Fathers Thus haue I taken away his answeres and vnloosed his knots without cutting and shewed him withall that not one cause but his hanging of his Faith and Religion vppon the Doctors authority is desperate The Dialogue Sectio XXIIII PRo All that you haue hetherto sayd being admitted yet cannot the Church of Rome that now is bee the true Church of Christ because it holdeth many other points of Doctrine directly contrarie to the word of God as the doctrine of Iustification by our owne works whereby you doe attribute your saluation vnto your owne workes and to the merites of dead Saints as if they had workes sufficient for their owne saluation
and a surplussage to be bestowed vpon others which you terme workes of supererrogation your doctrine of free-will whereby you doe attribute vnto man an absolute power to doe all good workes and thereby to merite heauen And your doctrine of the keys whereby you doe attribute to the Pope and his Priests power to forgiue the sinnes both of the quicke and dead an easie way to heauen for such as haue money and are disposed so to dispose it is not this doctrine as contrarie to the word of God as light vnto darkenesse Pap. I will answere you herein as briefely as I can desiring you first to a VVhich you seeme not to vnderstand your selfe vnderstand rightly the doctrine of the Church of Rome in these points and then to iudge indifferently First therefore concerning iustification by workes we doe hold with Dauid that the iust man offendeth b Then must hee doe seuen good workes else can he not bee iustified by workes 7. * Pr. 24 16. It is Salomon not Dauid nor doth Salomon say seuen times a day that is no addition to the text times a day we doe acknowledge also the death of Christ to be sufficient for the sinnes of the whole world we doe confesse that euery good and perfect gift commeth from aboue and that our righteousnesse is as a polluted cloth yet we doe hold therewithall that our good workes such as they are being clensed in the bloud of Christ are both c They may be acceptable but meritorious they cannot be acceptable vnto God and meritorious which we doe ground vpon the promise of our Sauiour Christ where he saith he that giueth to one of these little ones a cup of cold water shall not want his d VVhat reward temporall or eternall or what reward grace goeth before and draweth vs vnto good workes our will consenteth and worketh together with the grace of God so that as S. Austine saith Tractat. 3. primi cap. Iohannis God crowneth his owne gifts in vs and giueth vs grace for grace this is our Doctrine of Iustification by workes wherein we doe e Then nothing that is good in man can merite ascribe whatsoeuer is good in man vnto God as vnto the Fountaine attributing nothing vnto our selues f This tale will hardly agree within it selfe but the libertie of our will whereby to apprehend the grace of God offered vnto vs which frée will also we doe acknowledge to be the gift of God Concerning the merits of dead Saints we doe hold that as God doth may times spare the wicked for the righteous that are liuing among them and shewe mercie vnto thousands in them that loue him and kéepe his commaundements euen so he doth many times spare the liuing for the righteous sake that are departed hence g You are deceiued it doth not appeare there as appeareth in the 2. of the Kings Cap. 13. Where you shall find that the Children of Israell were deliuered from the hand of King Aram for Abraham Isaak and Iacobs sake whereby h You must prooue it better before I can see it you sée that the merits of dead Saints are auaileable vnto the liuing whereupon we may conclude further that if the children of Israel were spared for Abrahams sake who was dead that it was lawfull for the Iewes to pray vnto God that he would deliuer them i That is for the couenant sake made with Abrahā which being graunted you are at a stop for Abrahams sake which being graunted why is it not as lawfull for Christians to pray vnto God to be mercifull vnto their sinnes for Saint Peter and Saint Pauls sake This Doctrine was beléeued and practised in the Church in Saint Austines time as appeareth Can. 40. Meditationum where he prayeth to be deliuered from all euill by the praiers of the Patriarkes by the merits of the Prophets c. And more than this the Church of Rome doth not attribute vnto the merits of Saints The Answere HEere our Protestant layeth three capitall errours to the charge of the Church of Rome First iustification by our owne workes and the merites of dead Saints Secondly free-will to merite heauen Thirdly forgiuing sinnes by the power of the keys Mar. 2 7 Luk. 5 21. which the Scribes and Pharisies as blind as they were knew and professed to be blasphemous herein I will answere you saith our Papist as briefely as I can yea but when shall wee haue your briefe answere Marry first I must desire you saith he to vnderstand rightly the doctrine of Rome in these points Well but will you then be so good as answere vs as briefely as you can Yes marrie will I for I will say nothing at all and that 's as briefe an answere as can be deuised Thus this mans pleasure is to delude vs with expectation of an answere which hee God wote is not able to afford vs and therefore we must be content with we hold and we confesse and what 's that thinke you Marry the iust man offendeth dayly the death of Christ is sufficient for the sinnes of the whole world and our righteousnesse is as a polluted cloth which is sufficient to perswade any man that is not contentious that we are not iustified by our workes for that which is sufficient needeth not to be pieced and patched with a polluted clowt of our righteousnesse yea but our workes iustifie not so long as they bee polluted but after they are clensed in the blood of Christ and so they are both acceptable and meritorious Alas man that 's not the question whether they be acceptable and meritorious but whether they iustifie and the filly fellow himselfe telling vs that our workes are clensed in the blood of Christ tels vs withall that we are iustified not by our workes Act. 15 9 Mar. 7 21. that want clensing but by faith in the blood of Christ which clenseth our works and makes them acceptable howbeit all the world together in a heape will neuer be able to proue that works polluted with an arrogant conceit or intention of iustifying can bee possibly clensed in the blood of Christ his blood can no way else clense that which euacuateth his crosse and passion but by taking it away quite and reforming the proud conceits of such heretickes And touching meritoriousnesse the verie name is odious to the seruants of God Paul saith 1. Cor. 4 4. Luk. 17 10. I know nothing by my selfe yet am I not thereby iustified and our Sauiour hath taught vs to say wee are vnprofitable seruants and haue done that which our dutie bound vs vnto when wee haue done all that is commaunded but what should I labour to take away merites which this man himselfe groundeth vppon the promise of Christ Genes 15 6. Ro. 4 3 9 13. Galat. 3.18 22 c. I hope the promise of Christ was free and must be layd hold vpon by faith not workes as Abraham did for