Selected quad for the lemma: saint_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
saint_n	church_n	communion_n	fellowship_n	1,870	5	10.0945	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A68315	The examinations of Henry Barrowe Iohn Grenewood and Iohn Penrie, before the high commissioners, and Lordes of the Counsel. Penned by the prisoners themselues before their deathes	Barrow, Henry, 1550?-1593.; Greenwood, John, d. 1593. aut; Penry, John, 1559-1593. aut	1596 (1596)	STC 1519; ESTC S113168	32,537	34

sinne Q. Whither may the Prince make lawes in the gouerment of the church or no A. The Scripture hath set downe sufficient lawes for the worship of God and gouerment of the church to which no man may adde or diminish Q. What say yow to the Princes supremacie is her maiestie supreme head of the church ouer al causes as wel ecclesiastical as temporal A. A supreme magistr●●● ouer al persons to punish the euil and defend the good Q. Euer al causes etc. A. No Christ is onely head of his church and his lawes may no man alter Q. The pope giueth th●● much to the Prince A. No that he doth not he setteth himself aboue Princes ●nd exempteth his preisthod from the magestrates sword Q. What say yow to the oath of the Queenes supremacie wil yow answer to it If these ecclesiastical orders be meant such as be agreeable vnto the scriptures I wil for I deny al forreigne power Q. It is meant the order and government with al the lawes in the church as it is now established A Then I wil not answer to approue thereof A breif summe of the examination of John Penrie by the right worshipful Mr. Fanshaw and Mr. Justice Young the 10. of the fourth moueth April 1593. Fansh IT is strange vnto me that yow hold such opinions Penry as none of the learned of this age or any of the martyrs of former times mainterned Can yow shew any writers either old or new that haue bene of your iudgement Penr I hold nothing but what I wilbe bound to proue out of the written word of God and wil shew in regard of the special pointes controverted to haue bene mainteyned by the holy martyrs of this land who first assailed the Babylonis● Romane kingdome as namely by Mr. Wicliffe Mr. Brute Mr. Purvey Mr. White etc. with many other the famous witnesses and martyrs of Christ in former times and by Mr. Tindal Mr. Lambert Mr. Barnes Mr. Lat●●er etc. the lordes most blessed witnesses of this latter age I spea● nothing here of the doctrine and practise of the reformed churches mother countries whom I haue wholly of my side in the controversies of greatest moment F. But doe the martyrs teach yow that ther is no church of Christ in England P. If yow meane by a church as the most doe that publick profession wherby men doe professe saluation to be had by the death and righteousnes of Jesus Christ I am free from denping any church of Christ to be in this land for I know the doctrine touching the holy trinitie the natures and offices of the Lord Jesus free iustification by him both the Sacramentes etc. published by her maiesties authoritie and commaunded by her lawes to be the Lordes blessed and vndoubted truthes without the knowledge and profession wherof no saluation is to be had F. Seing yow acknowledge that her maiestie hath established the truth in so many weightie pomtes seing she hath commaunded the true Sacramentes to be administred what mislike yow in our church and why wil yow not be partaker of these truthes and Sacramentes with vs. P. I mislike 1. the false ecc●estastical offices 2. the manner of caling vnto the offices 3. a great parte of the workes wherin these false officers are imployed 4. the maintenance or livinges wherby they are mainteyned in their offices al which I wilbe bound to proue by the Lords helpe to be deriued not from Jesus Christ but from the kingdome of Antichrist his great enemie And therfore for as much as I cannot be partaker of the former holy thinges of God but I must be subiect vnto the power of Antichrist in these officers and knowen by those markes wherby his subiectes are noted therfore I am enforced and bound to seek the comfort of the word and Sacramentes wher I may haue them without the submitting of my self vnto any ecclesiastical power in religion saue onely vnto that which is deriued from Christ Jesus the Lord in whom al fulnes of power dwelleth Col. 1. 19. and from whom al those must deriue their power and office vnto whom the saintes of God are to submitte their consciences to be wrought vpon in religion Againe seing the forenamed 4. enormities of this church are markes which properly belong vnto the kingdome of the Beast viz. of the Romane Antichrist we dare not haue any communion and fellowship with them nor be knowen by them least we should be partakers of those most fearful and most dreadful iudgementes which are denounced by the spirit of God against al those that haue communion with any of the irreligious inventions of that Beast Reuel 14 9. 10. These are the thinges togither with the want of Christes true order which I especially mislike and the special causes why I dare not ioyne with the assemblies of this Land 1. the false offices wherby these assemblies are guided and by whom the whole worship is performed in them 2. their manner of caling 3. a great part of the devised workes wherin these officers are conversant 4. the livinges consecrated sometimes vnto Idols for the most part wherby they are susteyned in their offices F. What offices meane yow P. I meane the offices of Lord Arch Bbs. and Bbs. Archdeatons Commissaries Chancellors Oeanes Canons Prebendaries Preistes Deacons etc. Al which properly belong to no other bodie either 〈…〉 or 〈…〉 but onely vnto the Romish Church wh●●● they were first invented where they now are and by whom they were left in this lande when the head of that body the Pope and some other of his members were cast out by her maiestie and our soueraigne Lord her noble father The church of Christ is perfect without them in al her offices the ciuil state is absolute without them for they are ecclesiastical Heathen idolatrie hath them not and requireth them not onely the kingdome of Antichrist can in no wise be whole and entire without them wherof as I say they are visible and knowne members Now if it be not lawful for me or any other member of Christ to be subiect vnto the orders and cerimonies of the old law as circumcision etc. Which sometimes were the Lordes owne blessed ordinances how can it be but sin vnto vs to be subiect to the constitutions of Antichrist the maine adversarie of the Lo. Jesus The Lord hath not deliuered vs from the Yoke of his owne law that we should be in bondage vnto the inventions and order of Antichristes kingdome and offices F. Belike yow would haue no other offices in the church now in the time of peace and prosperitie then were in the Apostles dayes vnder persecution P. Ther is great reason we should not for if the order left by Moses in the church was not to be altered to be diminished or added vnto except it were by special commaundement from the Lord 1. Chron. 28 19. then may not any man or Angel but upon the same warrant adde any thing vnto that holy forme which the sonne of

3. Neither worship yow God aright but after an jdolatrous and superstitious māner 4. and your church is not gouerned by Christes Testament but by the Romish courtes and canons etc. L. Tr. Here is matter ynough in deed I perceiue thow takest delight to be an author of this new religion The L. Chanc. said he neuer heard such stuffe before in al his life B. As I was about to shew that neither I was an author of this religiō and that it was not new as they supposed the B. of Lo. interrupted me and asked me wherin their worship was jdolatrous The L. Treas also demaunded the same question B. Ther is nothing els in that book of your common prayer being demaunded some particulers I shewed that their saintes daies eues fastes idol feastes etc. Lond. Stay there why is it not lawful to keep a memorial of the Saintes in the church B. Not after your manner it is jdolarrie Lond. How proue now that B. By the 1. commaundement Lond. Why that is thow shalt haue no other Gods but me What of that B. The word is Thow shalt haue no other Gods before m● face We are therfore forbidden to giue any part of Gods worship to any creature Lond. Why neither doe we B. Yes yow celebrate a day and sanctifie an eaue and cal them by their names yow make a feast and deuise a worship vnto them L. Tr. Why may we not cal the day after their names is not that in our libertie B. No my Lord. L. Tr. How proue yow that B In the beginning of the booke it is written that God himselfe named al the dayes the first the second etc. L. Tr. Why then we may not cal them Sunday Monday etc. B. We are otherwise taught to cal them in the booke of God L. Tr. Why thow they selfe callest it the Lordes day B. And so the holy Ghost calleth it in the ● of the Reuelation Lond. We haue nothing in our saintes dayes but that which is taken forth of the Scriptures B. In that yow say true for yow finde no Saintes dayes in the Scriptures Lond. We finde their Histories and deedes in the Scripture B. But not their dayes and festiuals in the Scripture The Lo. Buckh. then said I was a proud spirit The L. Treas said I had a hotte braine and taking into his hande a book of common prayer which lay on the boord read certaine of the collectes for the Sainte● 〈…〉 Scripture and asked me what I could 〈…〉 therin B. I mislike al for we ought not so to vse Scriptures or prayers Lond. May we not make commemoration of the saintes fiues in the church B. Not after yowr manner to giue peculier dayes eues fastes worship feastes vnto them L. Tr. But what is there jdolatrous B. Al for we ought not so to vse the Scriptures Lond. What not in commemoration of the Saintes B. As I haue said not after yowr manner L. Tr. But what is euil here B. All my Lo. for by abusing the Scripture we may make it an jdol The circumstantes make euil thinges of themselues good as in the mass●●ook from whence this stuffe is fetched there are sundry good collectes and places of scripture which their superstitious abuse make abhominable and euil Likewise coniurers make many good prayers which the circumstances also make euil Here the Lo. Buckh. said I was out of my wittes B. No my Lo. I speak the wordes of sobernes and truth as I could make plaine if I might be suffered L. Tr. Here we pray that our liues may be such as theirs was void of couetousnes B. So ought we to doe and not to reade or haue any parte of the scripture without fruite and to follow and flee that which we finde praised and discommended in them yet ought we not to vse the scriptures in this manner to dayes and times neither to be thus restreyned or stinted in our prayers as to be tied to this forme of wordes place time manner kneele stand etc. L. Buckh. This fellow delighteth to heare himselfe speake The L. Chanc. also spake some what at that time which I cannot cal to remembrance as yet Then the Arch B. also spake many thinges against me of smal effect which I haue also forgotten onely this I remember he said I was strower of errors and that therfore he committed me B. In deed yow committed me halfe a yeare close prisoner in the Gatehowse and I neuer vntil now vnderstood the cause why neither as yet know I what errors they be shew them therfore I pray yow The L. Buckh. againe said I was a presumtuous spirit B. My Lo. al spirits must be tried and iudged by the word of God but if I erre my Lo. it is meet I should be shewed wherin L. Chanc. Ther must be streighter lawes made for such fellowes B. Would to God ther were my Lo. our iourny should be the shorter L. Tr. Yow complained to vs of iniustice wherin haue yow wrong B. My Lo. in that we are thus imprisoned without due trial L. Tr. Why yow said yow were condemned vpon the statute B Vniustly my Lo. that statute was not made for vs. L. Tr. Ther must be streighter lawes made for yow B. O my Lo. speak more comfortablie we haue sorrowes ynough L. Tr. In deed thow lookest as if thow hadst a troubled conscience B. No I praise God for it but 〈…〉 wen against her faithful subiectes The L. Tr. answered that the Queenes sword was not as yet drawen against vs. Then in a word or two I complayning of the misery and lingring close imprisonment which we suffer the L. Tr demaunded if we had had no conference The B. of Lond. answered that sundrie had bene with vs as D. Some Grauiat and others but we mocked them that came vnto vs. B. That is not true the Lord knoweth we mock no creature Neither doe I know or haue euer seene to my remembrance that Grauiat yow speak of But miserable phisitians are yow al for M r. Some he indeed was with me but neuer would enter disputation he said he came not therefore but in reasoning manner to know some what of my minde more cleerly Some was then by the Arch B. called and demaunded whither we had conference or no Some shewed how that at our last conference before S r. A. G. ther arose a question betwirt vs whither the Prince might make a positiue law de rebus me●ijs of thinges indifferent I denying it he asked me whither she migt make a statute for the reforming excesse of apparel I graunted that she might He then said it was a doctrine of Divils to forbid meate by a positiue law he shewed me then that the Princes law did not binde the conscience and that ther is a difference betwirt forum ciuile and forum conscientiae Some to this effect M r. Young then vncalled came and accused me of vnreuerend speeches vsed against his Lords grace at my first conference with

12. 3 4. The word caleth these by the name of prophets not such as doe foretel things to come but those who are furnished with graces meet for the interpretation and applicatiō of the word vnto the edification and comfort of the church as the Apostle teacheth vs expressely 1. Corint 14. and therfore mistake not the word prophet or prophesie as though we leaned vnto any inward reuelations or motions besides the written word F. I know wel ynough what yow meane and wil not mistake your wordes for the Scripture vseth them in that sence P. Now it should be no new thing vnto yow to heare that they may preach who haue no office in the church seing this is so common a thing in the colleges and vniuersities of this land F. Yea that is in the scholes P. If that exercise wherof yow and I meane I am sure be in your confession warantable in the scholes and colleges it is much more in the church and 〈…〉 the church and assemblies of his saincts should haue the vse and excercise of his holy word and not that it should be brought to humane scholes whither it neuer came into the Lordes minde to command that euer it should enter Let the arthes tongues and other humane knowledge be taught in scholes and let the holy truth and exercises of religion be dernied from the church of Christ which the Apostle for this purpose caleth the piller and ground of truth F. Wel thē yow beare no office in this your church yow wil not tel vs whither euer yow taught amongst them or not but yow would yow say if they required yow P. True F. But how came it to passe that yow were not mad● an officer amongst them P. Surely I was desired to take a charge and to continue with them but I would not because it hath bene my purpose alwayes to unploy my smal talēt in my poore countrie of Wales wher I know that the poore people perish for want of knowledge and this was the onely cause of my coming out of that country wher I was and might haue stayed privatly al my life euen because I saw my self bound in conscience to labour for the caling of my poore kinred and country mē vnto the knowledge of their saluation in Christ purposing in deed before I had gone thither to haue offred my self vnto her maiestie or some of their honours that it might be made knowne vnto her highnes what I hold in religion and how cleere I am of those greevous crimes of sedition and disturbing of her maiesties peaceable gouermēt wherwith I am wrongfully charged F. Why yow labour to draw her maiesties subiects from their obediēce vnto he lawes and from this church of Englād to heare yow and such as yow are teaching in woods P. Nay I perswade al men vnto the obedience of my Prince and her lawes onely I disswade al the world from yeelding obedience and submission vnto the ordināces of the kingdome of Antichrist and would perswade them to be subiect to Christ Jesus and his blessed lawes and I know this enterprise to be so far from being repugnant vnto her maiesties lawes as I assure my self that the same is warranted therby Her maiestie hath graunted in establishing and confirming the great charter of England whervnto as I take it the kinges and queenes of this land are sworne when they come to their crowne that the church of God vnder her should haue al her rights and liberties inviolable for ever Let the benefite of this law be graunted vnto me and others of my brethren and it shalbe found that we haue done nothing but what is warrantable by her lawes F. What is it meet that subiects should charge their princes to keep covenant with them and enter to scanne what oathes they haue take for this purpose where finde yow this warranted vp scripture P. The subiects are in a most lamētable case if they may not allege their princes lawes for their acti●●s yea and shew what their princes haue promised vnto the Lord and to them whē the same may be for declaration of their innocencie and it is the crowne and honour of Princes to be knowne not onely to hold but euen to be in couenant with their subiects that they wil maintaine and preserue them from violence and wrong nay heathen Princes haue thought themselues honoured when their meane subiects haue charged them very earnestly with the covenants wherby they were bound vnto their people The lawes of this land ar so ful this way as no man conversant in them can be ignorāt that our Princes haue preferred the observing of those equal couenāts wherby they are tied vnto their people before the accomplishing of their owne priuate affections yea and commandements in some cases Hence it is that the iudges of this land are bound by law to administer iustice and equitie vnto the poore subiects notwithstāding that the princes letters be directed to them to the contrary And as to the law of God al kinges and princes are bound ther by to be so far from thinking themselues tied by no bands vnto their subiects as they are plainly forbiddē euē to be lifted vp in minde aboue their brethren Deut. 1● 20. for so the word in that place calleth their subiects and servants The kinges of Judah who had the greatest privileges and prerogatiue both ecclesiastical and ciuil ouer their people that euer any kinges or Princes can haue because they were types and figures of that great king of kings the Lo. Jesus euered into couenāt notwithstanding with their people euen particulerly besides the general former law wherby they were bound vnto them Yea the prophet Jeremie being in no lesse daunger and disgrace with al estates then I and my brethren are at this present required his soueraigne Lord and king Zedekiah to promise that he would doe him no violēce and wrong nor yet suffer others to doe the same for telling him the truth of the word in the thinges wherin the king required to be resolued at his hādes the which thing Zedekiah yeilded vnto and that by an oath and covenant of the Lord. Jer. 38. 15. 16. Wherby it appeareth that it is not without great warrant of the word that princes should enter couenant with their subiects and that subiectes should require promise and oath to be kept with them otherwise wherto serveth the covenant But alas I enter not to scanne her maiesties oath I onely tel yow what her lawes alow me and my poore brethren And I am assured if her maiestie knew the equitie and vprightnes of our cause we should not receiue this hard measure which we now susteine We and our cause are neuer brought before her but in the odious weeds of Sedition rebellion ●chisme her sie etc. and therfore it is no mervaile too see the edge of her sword turned against vs. F. Hath not her maiestie by her lawes established these offices and this order that now is