you deny it we say his body is there you say there is nothing but bare bread we have Scripture for it Mat. 20. 26. Take eat this is my body so Luke 22. 19. This is my body which is given for you You say that the bread which we must eat in the Sacrament is but dead bread Christ saith that that bread is living bread you say how can this man give us his flesh to eat we say that that was the objection of Jewes and Infidels 1 John 6. 25. not of Christians and believers you say it was spoken figuratively we say it was spoken really revera or as we translate it indeed John 6. 55. But as the Jewes did so do ye first murmur that Christ should be bread John 6. 41. Secondly that that bread should be flesh John 6. 52. And thirdly that that flesh should be meat indeed John 6. 55. untill at last you cry out with the unbelievers this is a hard saying who can hear it John 6. 60. had this been but a figure certainly Christ would have removed the doubt when he saw them so offended at the reallity Joh. 6. 61. He would not have confirmed his saying in terminis with promise of a greater wonder John 6. 62. you may as well deny his incarnation his ascention and ask â—ow could the man come down from heaven and go up again if incomprehensibility should be sufficient to occasion such scruples in your breasts and that which is worse then naught you have made our Saviours conclusion an argument against the premises for where our Saviour tels them thus to argue according unto flesh and bloud in these words the flesh profiteth nothing and that if they will be enlivened in their understanding they must have faith to believe it in these words it is the Spirit that quickneth John 6. 63. They pervert our Saviours meaning into a contrary sense of their own imagination viz. the flesh profiteth nothing that is to say Christs body is not in the Sacrament but it the Spirit that quickneth that is to say we must onely believe that Christ dyed for us but not that his body is there as if there were any need of so many inculcations pressures offences mis-believings of and in a thing that were no more but a bare memoriall of a thing being a thing nothing more usuall with the Israelites as the twelve stones which were errected as a sign of the children of Israels passing over Jordan That when your children shall ask their Fathers what is meant thereby then ye shall answer them c. Josh 4. there would not have been so much difficulty in the belief if there had not been more in the mystery there would not have been so much offence taken at a memorandum nor so much stumbling at a figure The Fathers are of this opinion Saint Ignat. in Ep ad Smir. Saint Justin Apol 2. ad Antonium Saint Cyprian Ser. 4. de lapsis Saint Ambr. lib. 4. de Sacram. Saint Remigius c. affirm the flesh of Christ to be in the Sacrament and the same flesh which the word of God took in the Virgins wombe Secondly We hold tbat there is in the Church an infallible rule for understanding of Scripture besides the Scripture it self this you deny this we have Scripture for as Rom. 12 16. we must prophesie according to the rule of faith we are bid to walke according to this rule Gal. 6. 16. we must encrease our faith and preach the Gospel according to this rule 1 Cor. 10. 15 this rule of faith the holy Scriptures call a form of doctrine Romans 6. 17. a thing made ready to our hands 2. Cor. 10. 16. that we may not measure our selves by our selves 2 Cor. 10. 12. the depositions committed to the Churches trust 1 Tim. 6. 20. for avoiding of prophane and vain bablings and oppositions of sciences and by this rule of faith is not meant the holy Scriptures for that cannot do it as the Apostle tels us whilst there are unstable men who wrest this way and that way to their own destruction but it is the tradition of the Church and her exposition as it is delivered from hand to hand as most plainly appears 2 Tim. 2. 2. viz. The things which thou hast heard of us not received in writing from me or others among many witnesses the same commit thou to faithfull men who shall be able to teach it to others also Of this opinion are the Fathers Saint Irenaeus 4. chap. 45. Tertull de praescr and Vnicent lir in suo commentario saith It is very needfull in regard of so many errors proceeding from mis-interpretations of Scripture that the line of propheticall and Apostolicall exposition should be directed according to the rule of the Ecclesiasticall and Catholike sense and saith Tertullian praescript advers haeres chap. 11. We do not admit our adversaries to dispute out of Scripture till they can shew who their Ancestors were and from whom they received the Scriptures for the ordinary course of doctrine requires that the first question should be from whom and by whom and to whom the form of Christian Religion was delivered otherwise prescribing against him as a stranger for otherwise if a heathen should come by the Bible as the Eunuch came by the Prophesie of Esay and have no Philip to enterpret it unto him he would find out a Religion rather according to his own fancy then divine verritie In matters of faith Christ bids us to observe and doe whatsoever they bid us who fit in Moses seat Mat. 22. 2. therefore surely there is something more to be observed then only Scripture will you not as well believe what you hear Christ say as what ye hear his Ministers write you hear Christ when you hear them as well as you read Christ when you read his word He that heareth you heareth me Luke 10. 16. We say the Scriptures are not easie to be understood you say they are we have Scripture for it as is before manifested at large the Fathers say as much Saint Irenaeus lib. 2. chap. 47. Origen contr Cels and Saint Ambr. Epist 44. ad Constant calleth the Scripture a Sea and depth of propheticall riddles and Saint Hier. in praefat comment in Ephes and Saint Aug Epist 119. chap 21 saith The things of holy Scripture which I know not are more then those that I know and Saint Denis Bishop of Corinth cited by Eusebius lib. 7. hist. Eccles 20. saith of the Scriptures that the matter thereof was far more profound then his wit could reach We say that this Church cannot erre you say it can we have Scripture for what we say such Scripture that will tell you that fools cannot erre therein Esaiah 35. 8. such Scripture as will tell you if you neglect to hear it you shall be a heathen and a publican Mat. 18. 17. such Scripture as will tell you that this Church shall be unto Christ a glorious Church a Church that shall be
I would faine see it and as faine confide in that of which I had reason to be confident Marq. Take Gidions three hundred men and let the rest begon King Your Lordship speaks mistically will it please you to be plaine a little Marq. Come I see I must come nearer to you Sir It is thus God expected a worke to be done by your hands but you have not answered his expectation nor his mercy towards you when your Enemies had more Cities and Garisons then you had private families to take your part when they had more Cannon then you had Muskets when the people crowded to heap treasures agaidst you whilst your Majesties friends were faine here and there to make a gathering for You when they had Navies at Sea whilst Your Majesty had not so much as a Boat upon the River whilst the odds in number against you was like a full crop against a gleaning then God wrought his miracle in making Your gleaning bigger then their vintage he put the power into your hand and made You able to declare Your self a true man to God and gratefull to Your friends but like the man whom the Prophet makes mention of who bestowed great cost and paines upon his vineyard and at last it brought forth nothing but wilde grapes so when God had done all these things for You and expected that You should have given his Church some respit to their oppressions I heard say You made vowes that if God blest You but that day with * Nazeby Fight Victory you would not leave a Catholike in Your Army for which I fear the Lord is so angry with You that I am afraid he will not give you another day wherein you may so much as trie your fortune Your Majesty had forgot the monies which came unto you from unknown hands and were brought unto you by unknown faces when yau promised you would never forsake your unknown friends you have forgotten the miracalous blessings of the Almighty upon those beginnings and how have you discountenanc'd distrusted dis-regarded I and disgraced the Catholiques all along and at last vowed an extirpation of them Doth not your Majesty see clearly how that in the two great Battailes the North and Nazeby God shewed signes of his displeasure when in the first your Enemies were even at your mercy confusion fell upon you and you lost the day like a man that should so wound his Enemies that he could scarce stand and afterwards his own sword should fly out of the hilt and leave the strong and skilfull to the mercy of his falling enemies and in the second and I fear me the last Battaile that e're you 'le fight whilst your men were crying victory as I hear they had reason so to do your sword broke in the aire which made you a fugitive to your flying enemies Sir I pray pardon my boldnesse for it is Gods cause that makes me so bold and no inclination of my own to be so and give me leave to tell you that God is angry with you and will never be pleased untill you have taken new resolutions concerning your Religion which I pray God direct you or else you 'le fall from nought to worse from thence to nothing King My Lord I cannot so much blame as pitty your zeal the soundnesse of Religion is not to be tried by dint of sword nor must we judge of her truthes by the prosperity of events for then of all men Christians would be most miserable we are not to be thought no followers of Christ by observations drawne from what is crosse or otherwise but by taking up our crosse and following Christ neither do I remember my Lord that I made any such vow before the Battaile of Nazeby concerning Catholiques but some satisfaction I did give my Protestant Subjects who on the other side were perswaded that God blest us the worse for having so many Papists in our Army Marq. The difference is not great I pray God forgive you who have most reason to aske it King I think not so my Lord. Narq Who shall be judge King I pray my Lord let us sit down and let reason take her seat Marq. Reason is no judge King But she may take her place Marq. Not above our Faith King But in our arguments Marq. I beseech your Majesty to give me a reason why you are so much offended with our Church King Truly my Lord I am much offended with your Church if you meane the Church of Rome if it were for no other reason but this for that she hath foisted into her legend so many ridiculous stories as are able to make as much as in them lies Christianitie it self a fable whereas if they had not done this wrong unto the tradition of the primative Church we then had left unto us such rare and unquestionable verities as would have adorned and not dawb'd the Gospel whereas now we know not what is true or false Marq. Sir if it be allowed to question what the Catholick Church holds out for truth because that which they hold forth unto us seemes ridiculous and to picke and chuse verities according to our own fancie and reject as novelties and forgeries what we please as impossibilities and fabulous The Scriptures themselves may as well suffer by this kind of tolleration for what more ridiculous then the Dialoge between Balaam and his Ass or that Sampsons strenght should be in his hair or that he should slay a thousand men with the Jaw-bone of an Ass The Disputation betweeen Saint Michael and the Devil about the body of Moses Philip's being taken up in the air and found at Aroties with a thousand the like strange and to our apprehension if we look upon them with carnall eyes vaine and ridiculous but being they are recorded in Scripture which Scripture we hold for truth we admire but never question them so the fault may not be in the tradition of the Church but in the libertie which men assume to themselves to question the tradition And I beseech Your Majestie to consider the streakes that are drawne over the Divine writ as so many delenda's by such bold hands as those the Testaments were not like the two Tables delivered into the hands of any Moses by the immediate hand of God neither by the Ministration of Angels but men inspired with the holy Ghost writ whose writings by the Church were approved to be by inspiration which inspirations were called Scripture which Scriptures most of them as they are now received into our hands were not received into the Cannon of the Church all within three hundred years after Christ why may not some bold spirits call all those scriptures which were afterwards acknowledged to be Scripture were not before forgeries Nay have not some such as blind as bold done it already Saint Hier was the first that ever pickt a hole in the Scriptures and cut out so many books out of the word of God with the
should be so much offended at any such thing for bread and wine do signifie Christ crucified I appeale to common reason if a dead body doth not represent a passion as nuch as if we saw the bloud lie by it If you grant the Churches Power in other matters and rest satisfie therein why do you boggle at this especially when any Priest where wine is to be had if you desire it he will give it you But if upon every mans call the Church should fall to reforming upon every seeming fault which may be but supposed to be found the people would never stop untill they had made such a through Reformation in all parts as they have done in the greatest part of Germany where there is not a man to preach or hear the Gospel to eat the bread or drink the wine you never pickt so mony holes in our Coates as this licentiousness hath done in yours For our seven Sacraments she that called the Articles of our Faith 12 the Beatitudes 8 the Graces 3 the Virtues 4 called these 7 might have called them 17 if she had thought it meet A Sacrament is nothing else but what is done with a holy mind and why Sacrament either in Name or Number should be confind to Christs onely Institution I see no cause for it If I can prove that God did institute such a thing in Paradise as he did marriage shall not I call that a Sacrament as well as what was instituted by Christ when he was upon the Earth If Christ institutes the Order of giving receiving the holy Ghost shall not I call this the Sacrament of Orders If Christ injoyns us all repentance shall we not say repentance is a Sacrament If Christ blesseth little children and saith Suffer them to come unto me and forbid them not shall we not say that such Confirmation is a Sacrament Truly I do not understand their meaning They have taken away five which five either by God or Christ or the holy Ghost who are all one were instituted and yet they say they are not Sacraments because they were not instituted by Christ And the two that are left viz. baptisme and the Lords Supper for the first you hold it necessary to Salvation and for the second you do not admit the reall presence so that of the two remaining you have taken away the necessitie of the one and the reality of the other so fare well all Now for Purgatory I do believe we have as good ground for it out of this place of Scripture viz. He shall be purged yet so as if it were by fire as you can prove a Hell out of this place of Scripture He shall be cast into utter darkness and into the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone where shall be weeping and knatching of teeth Neither can you make more exceptions to our inference out of this place of Scripture to prove Purgatory then the Atheist if wits may be permitted to roame in such things as these once setled and believed generally will find ground enough to quarrell at your burning lake and the vaine Philosopher Contradictions enough in the description of the effects of those hellish Torments viz. weeping and knashing of teeth the one having its procedure from heat the other from cold which are meer Contradictions and therefore fabulous take heed we do not take away Hell in removing of Purgatory You see not how your laughing at Purgatory hath caused such laughing at Hell and Devils untill at last you shall see them bid the Heavens come down and plucke the Almightie out of his Throne If a Text of Scripture with the Churches Exposition be not sufficient for a man to rest both his Science Conscience upon I know not where it will find a resting place it may shoot at Random but never take so right an ayme and for the silver hooke you talk'd of I do not justifie the abuse of any I know there is a great difference between the Court of Rome and the Church of Rome and if these Errours were in the Church it self yet the tares must not be hastily pluckt out of the field of the Church least the wheat be pluckt up with it Now for our praying to Saints there is no body that prayes to any Saints otherwise then as we on earth desire the benefit of one anothers prayers We do not believe that they can help us of themselves or that they have power to forgive sin but we believe that they are nearer to God his favour more dear unto him and therefore we believe that he will hear them with or for us sooner then he will hear us when we pray upon our own account as we desire the prayers of some good and holy man whom we believe to be so hoping it will be a benefit unto us all that can be said against it is that they do not hear us I will not trouble Your Majestie with the Schoolmens Speculum Creatoris but I shall desire to be plaine when there is joy in heaven over every sinner that repenteth do you think that the Saints which are there are ignorant of the occasion of that joy or do they rejoyce at they know not what If the Saints in heaven do crie how long Lord how long holy and just dost thou not avenge our bloud upon them which dwell upon the earth if they know that their bloud is not yet avenged do they not know when a sinner is converted and if they know the time of conversion do they not know the time of prayer If Abraham knew that there were such men as Moses and the Prophets who was dead so many hundreds of years before their time can we say that they are ignorant think ye that those ministring Angels who are called Intelligencers give them no intelligences or that they gather nothing of intelligence by looking him in the face who is the fullness of knowledge and to all these the practise and opinion of so Catholick a Church God can onely forgive sins Christ can onely mediat but Saints whether in heaven or on the earth may intercede for one another Lastly for our worshipping of Images confounded be all they that worshipped them for me God is onely worthy to be worshipped but if I kneel before the Picture of my Saviour I worship him kneeling before his Picture the worship is in the heart and not in the knee and where the true God is in the intention there can be no idolatrie O Sir Christian Religion is not a Protestation but a Gospel it would better consist with unity then opposition we hold it a peece of popery to knocke our own breasts with the fists of constitution whilst we hold it most Evangelicall to knocke at our neighbours with a Counstables staff a pious care in a mother Church labours to educate her own daughter and having fed her at her own breasts all the gratitude she returns her mother is to call her whore
and this not onely is but must be the meaning of Saint Gregory for he thus explicates the matter himself lib. 4. ind 13. ep 32. viz. The Care of the Church hath been committed to the Prince of all the Apostles Saint Peter and yet had Saint Peter called himself the Vniversall Apostle in the first sence seeing that Christ Jesus made other Apostles as well as him he had been no Apostle himself but Antichrist and yet this hindred not but that the care and principality was committed unto Peter Whereby you may plainly see how he ascribes a head-ships over the Church whilst he denies the Vniversalitie of Episcopacie Wherefore having shewed Your Majestie my Church I humbly beg that You will be pleased either to give me a few lines in answer hereunto or else to shew me Yours The Kings Paper in answer to the Marquess MY Lord I have perused your Paper whereby I find that it is no strange thing to see error triumph in antiquitie and florish all those ensigns of Universality Succession Unitie Conversion of Nations c. in the face of truth and nothing was so familiar either with the Jews or Gentiles as to besmeare the face of truth with spots of noveltie for this was Jeremiahs case Jerem 44. 16. viz. As for the word which thou hast spoken unto us in the Name of the Lord we will not hearken unto thee but we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouths to burn incense unto the Queen of heaven and to powre out drink-offering unto her as we have done we and our fathers our Kings and our Princes in the Cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem as we have done there is Antiquitie we and our fathers there is Succescession In the Cities of Judah and Jerusalem there is Universalitie so Demetrius urged Antiquitie and Universality for his goddes Diana viz. That her temple should not be despised nor her Magnificence destroyed whom all Asia and the world worshipped So Symacchus that wise Senator though a bitter enemie to the Christians Servanda est inquit tot seculis fides sequendi sunt nobis parentes qui feliciter sequuti sunt suos we must defend that Religion which hath worne out so many ages and follow our Fathers steps who have so happily followed theirs So Prudentius would have put back Christianitie it self viz. Nunc dogma nobis Christianum nascitur post evolutos mille demum Consules Now the Christian Doctrine begins to spring up after the revolution of a thousand Consul-ships But Ezekiel reads us another lecture Ne obdurate cervices vestras ut patres vestri cedite manum Jehovae ingredimini sanctuarium ejus quod sanctificavit in saeculum colite Jehovam Deum vestrum Be not stiff necked as your forefathers were resist not the mightie God enter into his sanctuarie which he hath consecrated for ever and worship yee the Lord your God Radbodus King of Phrygia being about to be baptized asked the Bishop what was become of all his ancestors who were dead without being baptized The Bishop answered that they were all in hell whereupon the King suddenly withdrew himself from the font saying Ibi profecto me illis Comitem adjungam Thither will I go unto them no lesse wise are they who had rather erre with fathers and Councels then rectifie their understanding by the word of God and square their faith according to its rules Our Saviour Christ saith we must not so much hearken to what has been said by them of old time Matth. 21. 12. as to that which he shall tell you where Auditis dictum esse antiquitis is exploded and Ego dico vobis is come in its place which of them all can attribute that credit to be given unto him as is to be given to Saint Paul Yet he would not have us to be followers of him more then he is a follower of Christ 1 Cor. 11. 1. Wherefore if you crie never so loud Sancta mater Ecclesia sancta mater Ecclesia the holy mother Church holy mother Church as of old they had nothing to say for themselves but Templum Domini Templum Domini the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord we will crie as loud again with the Prophet Quomodo facta est meretrix Vrbs fidelis how is the faithfull Citie become a harlot if you vaunt never so much of your Roman Catholick Church we can tell you out of Saint John that she is become the Synagogue of Sathan neither is it impossible but that the house of prayers may be made a Den of theeves you call us hereticks we answer you with Saint Paul Act. 24. 14. After the way which you call heresie so worship we the God of our fathers believing all things which were written in the Law and the Prophets I will grant you that all those marks which you have set done are marks of the true Church and I will grant you more that they were belonging to the Church of Rome but then you must grant me thus much that they are as well belonging to any other Church who hold and maintain that doctrine which the Church of Rome then maintained when she wrought those conversions and not at all to her if she have changed her first love and fallen from her old principles for it will do her no good to keep possession of the keyes when the lock is changed now to try whether she hath done so or no there can be no better way then by searching the Scriptures for though I grant you that the Catholick Church is the white in that butt of earth at which we all must aim yet the Scripture is the heart centre or peg in the midst of that white that holds it up from whence wee must measure especially when wee are all in the white We are all of us in gremio Ecclesiae so that controversies cannot be decided by the Catholick Chruch but by the Scriptures which is the thing by which the nearnes unto truth must be decided for that which must determine truth must not be fallible but whether you mean the consent of Fathers or the decrees of generall Counsels they both have erred I discover no Fathers nakednesse but deplore their infirmities that we should not trust in armes of flesh Tertullian was a montanist Cyprian a rebaptist Origin an Anthropomorphist Heirom a Monoganist Nazianzen an Angelist Eusebius an Arrian Saint Augustine had written so many errors as occasioned the writing of a whole book of retractaions they have often times contradicted one another and some times themselves Now for generall Counsels Did not that Concilium Ariminense conclude for the Arrian heresie Did not that Concilium Ephesinum conclude for the Eutichian heresie Did not â—hat Concilium Carthaginense conclude 〈◊〉 not lawfull for Priests to marry Was not Athanasius condemned In … cilio Tyrio Was not Eiconolatria established In concilio Nicaeno secundo What should I say more when the Apostles
enclosure of brotherly affection d Cant. 4. 12. Cant. 2. 1. Will you forsake the Rose of Sharon and the Lillie of the Vallies for such a nose-gay for I shall make it apparent unto Your Majestie that the Doctrines which Protestants now hold as in opposition unto us were but so many condemned heresies by the antient and orthodoxall Fathers of the Church and never opposed by any of them as for example Protestants hold that the Church may erre this they had from the Donatists for which they were frequently reproved by St. Augustin a Passim cont Donat. Protestants denie unwritten traditions and urge Scripture onely This they had from the Arrians who were condemned for it by St. Epiphanius and St. Augustin both b Epiph. Her 75. Aug cont maxim li 1. c. 2. ult Protestants teach that Priests may marry this they had from Vigilantius who is condemned for it by St. Hieronimus c Con. Vigilan c. 1. Protestants denie Prayer for the dead this they had from Arrius for which he is condemned by St. August and Epiphanius both d Aug haer 53. Epiphan haer 75. Protestants denie Invocation of Saints this they had from Vigilantius for which he was condemned by St. Hieron e Hic Cont Vigil c. 3. Protestants denie Reverence to Images this they had from Xenias for which he is reproved by Nicephorus f Hist li 16. c. 27. Protestants denie the reall Presence this they had from the Carpenaites who were saith St. Augustin the first Hereticks that denied the reall Presence and that Judas was the first Suborner and Maintainer of this heresie g Aug in Psal 54. and 55. Protestants denie Confession of sins to a Priest so did the Novatian Hereticks and the Montanists for which they are reproved by St. Ambrose and St. Hieron h Ambr i de poenit c. 7. Hier Epist ad Marcle 54. Protestants say that they are justified by Faith onely this they had from the pseudo-Apostles for which they are condemned by St. Augustin i Aug de fide oper c. 14. Lastly as I have shewed Your Majestie that Your Church as it stands in opposition to ours is but a congeries of so many heresies to which I could easily make an enlargement but that I fear I have been too tedious already So I shall make it appear that our Church as she stands in opposition unto yours is true and right even your selves being witnesses you shall find our Doctrine among your own Doctors First the Greek Church whom you court to your side as indeed they are Protestants according to your vulgar reception being you call all those Protestants who are or were in any Opposition to the Church of Rome though in their Tenents otherwise they never so much do disagree For the Greek Church with which you so often hit us in the teeth and take to be of your faction she holds Invocation of Saints Adoration of Images Transubstantiation Communion in one kind for the sick and many others Master Parker confesseth that Luther crossed himself morning and evening and is never seen to be painted praying but before a Crucifix a Against Simb part 1. C. 2. sect 30. p. 105. See Jo Crevel refut Cerem miss p. 188 Jo Manl Loc Com. p. 636. As touching the Invocation of Saints saith Luther I think with the whole Christian Church and hould that Saints are to be honoured by us and invocated b Purgat quorund art in Ep ad Georg. Spal Inever denied Purgatorie saith Luther and yet I believe it as I have often written and confessed c Tom 7. fol 132. adversus bullam See him also in disp Lips c. de purgat resolut de indulg Conclus 16. See likewise Zwingl Tom 2. fol. 378. If it is lawfull saith Luther for the Jewes to have the picture of Caesar upon their Coins much more is it lawfull for Christians to have in their Churches Crosses and Images of Mary d Luth in Consolat prolab Ii 6. See this cited forth of Luth by Hasp Hist Sac p. 2. f. 33. and lastly he maintained the reall Presence e See Zwingl Tom. 2. fol 375. f p. 2. 16. g Pag 209. But let us go a little further and consider what they held whom ye call your Predecessours under whom ye shroud your Visibility and on whom you look beyond Luther for your Doctrines Patronage viz. First upon the Hussites who brake forth about the year 1400. they held seven Sacraments f Transsubstantiation g the Popes primacy h Pag 217. art 7 8. and the Mass i Luth in Colloq Germ c. de missa as Fox in his acts and monuments acknowledgeth Let us go further and consider Wickliffe our own Countrey-man who appeared about the year 1370. he maintained holy water k Wick de blasphem cap 17. worship of Reliques and Images l Idem de Eucharist c. 9. Intercession of the blessed Virgin Mary m Idem in Ser. de Assump Mariae the rites and Ceremonies of the Mass n Idem de apostasia c. 18. all the seven Sacraments o Idem in postill sup c. 15. Marci Moreover he held Opinions contrary and condemned both by Catholick and Protestants as that if a Bishop or Priest be in any mortall sin his Ordaining Consecrating or Baptising is of no effect p Acts and mon p. 96. a art 4. He condemned lawfull Oaths with the Anabaptists q Osiand Epist Hist Eccles p. 459. art 43. Lastly he maintained that any Ecclesiasticall Ministers were not to have any temporall possessions r Act mon p. 96. This last Opinion was such savoury Doctrine that rather then some of those times would not hearken to that they would listen to all as the greedy appetites to Bishops Lands make some now a dayes to hearken unto any thing that Cryers down of Bishops shall foment To go further yet to the Waldenses descended from the race of one Waldo a Marchant of Lions who brake out about the year 1220. These men held the reall Presence Å¿ In Epist 244. p. 450. for which they were reproved by Calvin These men extolled the merit of voluntary poverty they held Transubstantiation t Illiricus Catalog Test p. 1498. and many other opinions which most Protestants no way allow And lastly I shall run your pedegree to the radix and utmost Derivation that the best read Herauld in the Protestant Genealogy can run its line and that is to the Waldenses and to Berengarius who broacht his heresie in the year 1048. and he held all the points of Doctrine that we held onely he differed from us in the point of Transubstantiation And for this cause they took u Idem Catalog Test pag. 1502. him into the name and number of Protestants and Reformers nothwithstanding he presently afterwards recanted and died a Catholick So it ends where it never had beginning Finally if neither prescription of 1600 years possession and continuance of our Churches Doctrine nor our evidence out of the word of God nor the Fathers witnessings to that evidence nor the Decrees of Councels nor your own acknowledgements Be sufficient to mollifie and turne your royall heart there is no more meanes left for truth or me but I must leave it to God in whose hand are the hearts of Kings THis Paper was finished and delivered into His Majesties hands at a very unfit time either for perusall or answer being at the time when Bristoll was delivered up unto the Parliament and the Court in great distraction the King being in a study rather to know which way to goe then how to answer papers Yet His Majesty vouchsafed to run over the leaves rather then the lines with His eye and finding the Paper of some length and full of Quotations His Majesty said To answer this Paper requires a great deale of that which I want and that is time besides I perceive that to make due enquiry into these particulars it will require a great deale of search which if leisure would give leave I believe industry might find a great deale of foul play and mis-quotations Oxford would have been a fitter place for me then Ragland Castle to have entertain'd such an Incounter where the same place that is my Souldiers quarters is his Jesuites Colledge yet I pray tell him I returne his Paper to him againe and shall take another time to answer it when opportunity shall give me leave To morrow I shal ease his Lordship of a heavy burthen and this day will be time little enough for us to consider what course we are to take I prayed God to bless His Majesty in all His wayes and to direct Him in all His consultations The King having as it seem'd fixt His eye upon that place in my Lords Paper where he charged Luther for saying that he received his Doctrine from the Devil asked me what was Luthers meaning thereby or whither or no Luther said any such thing Whereunto I made answer that to my knowledge Luther had written so but I believed his meaning was as elsewhere he said Diabolus me Christianum fecit that having received many combates by the suggestions of the Devil deterring him from undertaking so great a weight as Reformation and having resisted those temptations and at last overcome them he became a better Scholler in the Schoole of Christ and Souldier in that spiritual warfare The King said Luther was a bold man and such high spirits sometimes take a pride to fight against common sence as if it were the common enemy Whereupon some of the Lords came in and I took my leave of His Majesty FINIS Errata PAge 2. lin 19. for Crown read Crosier Pag. 29. l. 8. for Aroties r. Azotus Pag. 54. l. 13. for it necessarie r. it not necessary Pag. 58. l. 23. for constitution r. contrition Pag. 64. l. 12. del two Pag. 91. l. 15. for Apostolicall r. Analogicall and l. 22. for invisibility r. visibility P. 111. l. 12. r. Audistis dictum esse antiquis Pag. 151. l. 21. for inferiour r. interiour Pag. 199. l. 18. for hiddenly r. suddenly
Commandments and Ordinances of the Lord blamelesse and 1 John 5 3 His Commandments are not grievious The Fathers are for us Orig Hom 9 in Josue Saint Cyril li 4 Cont Julian Saint Hyl in Psal 118 Saint Hier l. 3 cont pelag Saint Basil We say faith cannot justify without works yee say good works are not absolutely necessary to salvation we have Scripture for what we say 1 Cor 13 2 Though I have all faith and have no charity I am nothing and James 2 24 By works a man is justified and not by faith only This opinion of yours Saint Aug li de fide oper ca 14 saith was an old heresie in the Apostles time and in the preface of his Comment upon the 32 Psal he cals it the right way to hell and damnation See Orig in 5. to the Rom Saint S. Hillar chap. 7. in Mat S. Amb 4. ad Heb c. We hold good workes to be meritorious you deny it we have Scripture for it Mat. 6. 27. He shall reward every man according to his workes Mat. 5. 12. Great is your reward in heaven Reward at the end presupposes merit in the worke the distinction of secundum and propter opera is too nice to make such a division in the Church The Fathers were of our opinion S. Amb de Apolog David ca. 6. S. Hier lib. 3. Cont Pelag S. Aug de Spiritu lit cap. ult and divers others We hold that faith once had may be lost if we have not care to preserve it You say it cannot we have Scripture for it viz. Luke 8. 13. They on the rock are they which when they hear receive the word with joy which for a while believe and in time of temptation fall away So 1 Tim. 1. 18 19. Which some having put away have made shipwrack of their faith This is frequently affirmed amongst the Fathers See S. Aug de gratia lib arbit de correp gratia ad articulos We hold that God did never inevitably damn any man before he was born or as you say from all eternity you say he did we have Scripture for what we say Wis 1. 13. God made not death neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living 1 Tim 2. 34. God our Saviour who will have all men to be saved 2 Pet 3. 9. The Lord is not willing that any should die but that all should come to repentance and if you will not believe wben he saies so believe him when he swears it As I live saith the Lord I do not delight in the death of a sinner The Fathers are of our opinion Saint Aug li 1. Civit Dei Tertul Orat ca 8. Saint Cypr lib 4. Epist 2. and Saint Amb lib 2. de Cani Abel We hold that no man ought infallibly to assure himself of his salvation you say he ought the Scripture saith we ought not 1 Cor 9. 27. S. Paul was not assured but that whilst he preached unto others he himselfe might become a cast-away Rom 11. 20. Thou standest in the faith be not high minded but fear c. least thou also maist be cut off Phil 2. 12. Worke out your salvation with fear and trembling The Fathers are of our opinion Amb Ser 5. in Psal 118. S. Basil in Constil Monast chap 2. S. Hier li 2. Advers Pelagian S. Chrysost Hom 87. in Joan S. Aug in Psa 40. S. Bernard Ser 3. de Advent and Ser 1. de Sept saith Who can say I am of the Elect We say that every man hath an Angel guardian you say he hath not we have Scripture for it viz. Mat 18. 10. Take heed that ye dispise not one of these little ones for I say unto you that in heaven there Angels doe alwayes behold the face of my Father Acts 12. 13. S. Peter knocking at the door they say it is his Angel they believed this in the Apostles time the Fathers believed it along S. Greg Dial li 4. cap 58. S. Athanas de Communi Essentia S. Chrys Hom 2. in Ep ad Collos lib 6. de Sacer Greg Turonens lib de gloria Martyr S. Aug Ep ad Prabam cap. 19. and S. Jer upon these words Their Angels Mat. 17. 10. cals it a great dignity which every one hath from his Nativity We say the Angels pray for us knowing our thoughts and deeds you deny it we have Scripture for it Zach 1 9 10 11 12. Then the Angel of the Lord answered and said O Lord of Hosts how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the Cities of Judah against whom thou hast had indignation these theescore and ten years Apoc 8. 4. And the smoake of the incense of the prayers of the Saints ascended from the hand of the Angel before the Lord. This place was so understood by Irenaeus li 4. cap 34. and S. Hilary in Psal 129. tels us This intercession of Angels Gods nature needeth not but our infirmities do So S. Amb lib de viduis Victor utic lib 3. de persecutione vandalorum We hold it lawfull to pray unto them you not we have Scripture for it Gen 48. 16. The Angel which redeemed me from all evill blesse these lads c. Hosea 12. 4. He had power over the Angel and prevailed he wept and made supplications unto them Saint Augustine expounding these words of Job 19. 21. Have pitty upon me O ye my friends for the hand of the Lord is upon me saith that holy Job addressed himself to the Angels We hold that the Saints deceased know what passeth here on earth you say they know not we have Scripture for it Luke 16. 29. where Abraham knew that there were Moses and the Prophets Books here on earth which he himselfe had never seen when he was alive The Fathers say as much Euseb Ser de Ann S. Hier in Epit Paulae S. Maxim Ser de S. Agnete We say they pray for us you not we have Scripture for it Apoc 5. 8. The twenty four Elders fell downe before the Lambe having every one of them Harpes and golden Viols full of odours which are the prayers of the Saints Baruch 3. 4. O Lord Almighty thou God of Israel hear now the prayers of the dead Israelites The Fathers were of this opinion S. Aug Ser 15. de verbis Apist S. Hilar in Psa 129. S. Damas lib 4. de fide cap 16. We hold that we may pray to them you not we have Scripture for it Luke 16. 24. Father Abraham have mercy on me and send Lazarus c. You bid us shew one proof for the lawfulness hereof when here are two Saints pray'd unto in one verse and though Dives were in Hell yet Abraham in Heaven would not have expostulated with him so much without a non nobis domine if it had been in it self a thing not lawfull You will say it is a parable yet a jury of ten Fathers of the grand inquest as Theophil Tertul Clem Alex S. Chrys
S. Jer S. Amb S. Aug S. Greg Euthem and Ven Beda give their verdict that it was a true History but suppose it were a parable yet every parable is either true in the persons named or else may be true in some others The Holy Ghost tels no lies nor fables nor speaks not to us in parables consisting either of impossibilities or things improbable Job 5. 1. Call now if there be any that will answer thee and to which of the Saints wilt thou turne It had been a frivolous thing in Eliphaz to have asked Job the question if invocation of Saints had not been the practise of that time The Fathers offirme the same S. Dony cap 7. S. Athan Ser de Annunt S. Basil Orat in 44. Mart. S. Chrys Hom 66. ad Popul S. Hier pray'd to S. Paula in Epitaph S. Paulae S. Maximus to S. Agnes Ser de S. Agnete S. Bern to our blessed Lady We hold Confirmation necessary you not we have Scripture for it Acts 8. 14. Peter and John prayed for them that they might receive the holy Ghost for as yet he was fallen upon none of them only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Then laid they their hands on them and they received the holy Ghost Where we see the holy Ghost was given in Confirmation which was not given in Baptism also Heb 6. 1. Therefore leaving the principles of the Doctrine of Christ let us go on unto perfection not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith towards God of Baptisme and of Laying on of hands The Fathers affirme the same Tert li de Resurect Carn S. Pacian lib de Bapt S Amb lib de Sac S. Hier Cont Lucif S. Cypr li 2. Ep 1. speaking both of Baptisme and Confirmation saith Then they may be sanctified and be the sons of God if they be borne in both Sacraments We hold it sufficient to communicate in one kind you not we have Scripture for it Joh. 6. 15. If any man eat of this bread he shall live for ever If everlasting life be sufficient then is it also sufficient to communicate under one kind So Acts 2. 42. And they continued stedfastly in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship or communion and in breaking of bread prayer where is no mention of the cup yet they remained stedfast in the Apostles doctrin Luk. 24. 30. 8. 35. where Christ communicated his two Disciples under one kind Saint Augustine and Theophilact lib de Consens Evang cap 25. expound this place of the blessed Sacrament S. Chrys Hom 17. oper imperfecti We hold that Christ offered up unto his Father in the Sacrifice of the Masse as an expiation for the sins of the people is a true and proper Sacifice this you deny this we prove by Scripture viz. Malach 1. 11. from the rising of the Sun unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles and in every place incense shall be offered to my name and a pure offering This could not be meant of the figurative offerings of the Jewes because it was spoken of the Gentiles neither can it be understood of the reall Sacrifice of Christ upon the Crosse because that was done but in one place and at one time and then and there not among the Gentiles neither which could be no other but the daily Sacrfice of the Masse which is and ever was from East to West a pure and daily Sacrifice Luke 22. 19. This is my body which is given for you not to you therefore a Sacrifice The Fathers are of this opinion S. Clem Apost Const li 6. cap. 23. who calleth it a reasonable unbloudy and misticall Sacrament S. Aug li 1. Cont adverse leg proph cap 18. 19. calleth it a singular and most excellent Sacrifice S. Chrys hom in Psa 95. calleth it a pure and unbloudy host a heavenly and most reverend Sacrifice S. Greg Nicen Orat 4. de Resurrect We say that the Sacrament of orders confers grace upon those on whom the hands of the Presbytery are imposed you both deny it to be a Sacrament notwithstanding the holy Ghost is given unto them thereby and also you deny that it confers any inferiour grace at all upon them we have Scripture for what we hold viz. 1 Tim 4. 14. Neglect not the gift that is in thee which was given thee by Prophesie and with the laying on the hands of the Presbytery So 1 Tim 1. 6. Stir up rhe gift of God which is in thee by the putting on my hands S. Aug li 4. Quaest super num S. Cyp Ep ad Magnum optatus Milevit the place beginneth ne quis miretur Tertul in prescript The place beginneth Edant Origines We hold that the Priest and other Religious persons who have vowed chastity to God may not marry afterwards you deny first that it is lawfull to make any such vowes and secondly That those who have made any such vowes are not bound to keep them we have Scripture for what we hold Deuteronomie 23. 22. When thou shalt vow a vow unto the Lord thy God thou shalt not slack to pay it for the Lord thy God will require it of thee So 1 Tim 5. 11 12. But the younger widdows refuse for when they have begun to wax wanton against the Lord they will marry having damnation because they have cast off their first faith What can be meant hereby but the vow of Chastity or by their first faith but some promise made to Christ in that behalfe otherwise Marriage could not be damnable so all the antient Fathers have expounded it Saint Aug li de bono viduit cap 9. Saint Athanas lib de Virginitat Saint Epiph Heres 48. Saint Hier Cont Jovin li 1. ca 7. We say Christ descended into Hell and delivered thence the Soules of the Fathers ye deny it we have Scripture for it viz. 1 Ephes 4. 8. When he ascended up on high he led captivity captive c. Descending first into the lower part of the Earth This lower part of the Earth could not be a Grave for that was the upper part nor could it have been the place of the damned for the Devils would have been brought again into heaven more clearly Acts 2. 27. Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption there is hell for his soul for a time and the grave for his body for a while plainer yet 1 Pet. 3. 18. 19. Being put to death in the flesh but quickned by the Spirit by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison this prison cannot be heaven nor hell as it is the place of the damned nor the grave as it is the place of rest therefore it must be as Saint Aug Epist 99. ad Evod. saith some third place which third place the Fathers have called Limbus patrum also Zachary 9. 11. As for thee also by the bloud of