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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
saint_n	bishop_n	peter_n	succession_n	1,339	5	9.9497	5	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A77707	Rome's conviction: or, A discoverie of the unsoundness of the main grounds of Rome's religion, in answer to a book, called The right religion, evinced by L.B. Shewing, 1. That the Romish Church is not the true and onely Catholick Church, infallible ground and rule of faith. 2. That the main doctrines of the Romish Church are damnable errors, & therefore to be deserted by such as would be saved. By William Brownsword, M.A. and minister of the Gospel at Douglas Chappell in Lancashire.	Brownsword, William, b. 1625 or 6.	1654 (1654)	Wing B5216; Thomason E1474_2; ESTC R209513	181,322	400

will waver because of supposed want of succession and for stubborn mis-believers the proof of succession will not bend or make them supple they that will not believe Moses and the Prophets speaking in Scripture would not believe though one should rise from the dead Luke 16.31 But to what purpose bring you the Text 1 Pet. 3. there is nothing in it for succession in order to the bending of the minds of mis-believers unless you understand the wives being in subjection to their own husbands whereby they that obey not the Word may without the Word be won to be the wives proving their Episcopal succession But for the necessity of producing succession you urge testimonies and reasons which I shall now in order examine The testimonies are these viz. of Tertullian Bidding the Sectaries of his time let him see the beginning of their Church and unfold the order of their Bishops and Pastors Likewise Optatus lib. 2. Contr. Parmen The Origin of your chair shew ye that needs will challenge to your selves the Holy Church St. Augustine de vit credend ep contr Faust manich came not behind these in pressing the necessity of succession and derivation where he ingeniously acknowledgeth them to be of force to hold and keep him in the bosome of the Church There keepeth me said that great Saint in the Church the succession of Priests from the very sitting of St. Peter to whom our Lord after his resurrection committed the feeding of his sheep even oo this present Bishop Answ There is no necessity of producing succession for there may be true Apostolical Churches without personal locall succession as I shewed out of Tertullian and its confirmed by Azorius who gives these two only reasons why the Church is called Apostolical because it was propagated by the Apostles Azor. inst moral p. 2. l. 5. c. 21. 9. 4. and holds their faith and doctrine the former reason points out the primitive this latter succeeding Churches though without personall succession 2. There may be succession where there is no true Church as I shall shew hearafter 3. If the Fathers do demand succession of Bishops or Pastors it s in order to Doctrine which they account the main yea the foundation of the other thus doth Tertullian in the words I quoted and Gregory Nazianzen who saith that the succession of faith is the true succession for those that professe the same Doctrine of faith are partakers of the same Throne Naz. Orat. de Laud Athanas So Tertullian and Optatus the one requiring from Sectaries the beginning of their Churh the other the Origin of their Chair both which phrases refer to their agreement with the Apostles not to personal succession Fathers urged succession of Doctrine as necessary but not the succession of persons 2. It s of such as being an inconsiderable party yet excluded all others from being of the Church of God but themselves such were the Valentinians opposed by Tertullian and those whom Optatus speaks of Thus we might demand of the Romanists and say The Origin of your Church shew ye that needs will challenge to your selves the Holy Church When did you begin to be such When had your Pope his universal power as Emperor of the World c. Or 3. It s of some Churches not of all viz. 1. Of such as had begun with the Apostles not others which began long after and therefore could not shew such succession 2. Of such as were in their times not of after ages their demands extend not to us Present Churches are not so able to shew succession as those were in whose times heretical Bishops had no place in the Church as Austin shews for having reckoned up the Roman Bishops from Linus to Anastatius living then Ep. 165. he concludes that in the rank of this succession there was not one Bishop found that was a Donatist and also whilst there was a short space betwixt the Apostles and them the latest of them living within four hundred years after Christ in which time there were no expurgatory indices no ●●opping of their mouths who wrote the truth The Fathers of the first centuries were few and not subject to Popish purgations whereas the case is now otherwise we are not much short of the 1700 years from Christ our Authors that might shew our succession abused by you Your argument therefore is not good succession must now be demanded and produced for so it was in the time of Augustine Optatus Tertullian 1300 years ago 4. They rather demand the Origin and beginnning of Churches than succession of Bishops leaving more to antiquity than to succession 2. You argue for the necessity of succession thus Derivation of succession is so proper to the true Church that it can not agree to any false as St Hierom in Micam 1. observeth assuring heretiques to have no such riches as come to men by plain inheritance from their Fathers Answ This is most untrue Bellarmine dare not affirm it that its necessarily inferd that where there is succession there is the Church to whom Mr. Hart consents Hart. confer c. 7. div 9. saying Indeed succession of Bishops in pla●e is no good argument unlesse it be joyned with succession of Doctrine The reason is this derivation of succession may agree to a false Church ex gr to the Church of Constantinople who reckon from Andrew the Apostle to the Bishop that sitteth now which Church notwithstanding you account unsound Stapleton pronounceth of the Greek Churches in general that they can shew a personal succession from the very Apostles yet you account them not true Churches for they are not under your Roman Pope but against him 2. Your testimony of Hierom makes nothing for you For 1. It grants that hereticks may have fathers whose children they are and what is this but succession 2. That which it denies is that they have such riches as come by spiritual inheritance i. e. divine and wholsome truth the riches of the Apostles successors It s a simple conceit to imagine that succession is the riches that men have by inheritance from their fathers their inheriting of their fathers riches is not succession but succession is the cause of their inheriting they are but poor children that have only this that they can tell you they proceed from their fathers and succeed them Such children are your Popes they can tell you who was their father grandfather and great-grrandfather and this is their riches much good may they do them Whilst Protestant Pastors have true doctrine the true riches of the Apostles To this Testimony of Hierom you add a reason to prove that derivation of succession is proper to the true Church saying Its evident in it self by reason the true Church was planted and established before any false began therefore must need be a non plus ultra a stop and bar betwixt whatsoever counterfeit Church and Christ to keep off the like continuation of succession Answ 1. If it

be so evident in it self why do not all Papists agree with you but rather oppose you 2. Your reason is most ridiculous 't is this The true Church was before any false one therefore succession is proper to the true Church If you had been speaking of antiquity your argument would have had some force in it but antiquity and succession are different things constituting two distinct notes of your Church Antiquity properly points at the beginning of Churches succession only at the continuation of them But I think your mind was upon antiquity for in your fifth Section you purposely handle it and your meaning here is this that false Churches cannot derive their succession to the first foundation thereof which is Christ for you say There must be a stop and bar betwixt whatsoever counterfeit Church and Christ c. To which I answer 1. Heretical Churches as such cannot derive their succession from Christ or the Apostles for then they should derive their Heresies also But 2. Those Churches that are now or have lately been Heretical may yet derive a personal succession from Christ in as much as at first they were planted and established in the truth by the Apostles but have since degenerated Thus it is with the Greek Churches and your Roman Church and probably was with the Arians who though they wanted doctrinal succession yet might have personal there being Bishops of note who maintained that Heresie In the former regard its true which you say that the Arian derivation climbeth no further then Arius there 's a great difference betwixt succession of Doctrines and persons though you seem to take no notice of it Lastly you return to the Protestant Church and whereas it s said There have been named in several ages the Albigenses the Apostolici Wickliff Hus. You Answer None of these were Protestants c. Rep. 1. Some of these were Protestants the Albigenses otherwise called Waldenses were Protestants Parsons confesseth that they devised and framed out of Scripture the whole platform of the Protestant Gospel Pars 3. Con. part 3. Hist of France Book 1. pag. 15. edit an 1595. Id. p. 67. A French Historian writes thus of them Who in spite of all the Potentates in Christendom sowed about the year 1100. and even since their Doctrine smally differing from the Protestants at this day For the further clearing of this take this extract of their confession of Faith which they delivered to Francis 1. Of France about the year 1540. and which they said was taught unto them ever since the year 1200. It contained the Articles of God the Father Creator of all things of the Son adv●cate and Intercessor for mankind of the Holy Ghost Comforter and Teacher of the Truth of the Church which they said to be assembled of all the chosen having J●sus Christ for Head of Ministers of the Ma●istrate whom they confessed ordained of God to punish Malefactors and defend the good to whom it sufficeth not only to carry honor but also to pay Taxes and Imposts without acception of state whatsoever and that at the example of Christ who did likewise practice it Of Baptism which they maintained to be a visible and extenor sign represe●ting unto us the Regenerati n of the Spirit and Mortification of the Members Of the Lords Supper which they hold for a thanksgiving and commemora ion of the benefit received by Christ Of Marriage which they say was not forbidden to any by h w much it was Holy and ordained o● God Of good work wher●in they ought to imploy themselves continually ●f Mans tradition which they ought to shun protesting in Sums that the Rule of their Faith was the Old and New Testament and that they believed all which was contained in the Apostles Creed This positive Confession I have taken verbatim out of the French Historian to which I may add a Negative one out of Aeneas Silvius and others viz. they held that the Bishop of Rome was not above other Bishops That prayers for the dead and Purgatory were devised by the Priests for their own gain That the Images of God and Saints were to be defaced that confirmation and extream unction were no Sacraments That it is vain to pray to the Saints in Heaven since they cannot help us That auricular confession was a trifling thing That it was not meritorious to keep set Fasts of the Church and that such a set number of Canonical hours in praying was vain That Oyl and Chrism were not to be used in Baptism That the Church of Rome was not the Holy Church nor Spouse of Christ but Babylon the mother of Abominations If you desire to see more of them read Calverii Epitom Historian page 555. where you have a large Catalogue of them and now let the reader judge whether they were Protestants or no. But you object two things to prove that they were not Protestants 1. They hold not in all points with them For this you cite divers Authors But I answer 1. I confesse the Authors you mention do severally attribute divers errors to them but these witnesses agree not amongst themselves Guido Carmelita chargeth them with saying that Masse is to be said once only every year Aeneas Silvius contrarily saith that they hold that the Priest may consecrate at any time and minister to them that require it The same Guido saith they held that the words of consecration must be no other but the Pater noster seven times said over the bread but Aeneas Sylvius Antonius and Luxemburg say the contrary affirming that they thought it sufficient to speak the Sacramental words only Prateolus chargeth them with Manicheisme but Reinerus the French Historian and others free them from it 2. Their confessions shew that there is very small difference betwixt them and the Protestants 3. Though they should not hold in all points with Protestants yet they might be Protestants perfect complyance is not absolutely necessary to constitute a person a member of the Church Many of the members of the Church of Rome Corinth Galatia c. did not agree in all points with those Churches yet were members of them The French Papists go under the name of Catholiques yet agree not in all points with the Church of Rome for they deny the Pope to be above a general Council and that the Council of Trent was Oecumenical and Lawfull The books of many named Catholiques have been censured for unsound speeches and because they have not held in all points with your Churh yet are Catholiques still The Apostle supposeth that though those who are perfect do walk by the same rule yet some may be otherwise minded Phil. 3.15 which the Rhemists in their note on that place clearly grant 2. You object that they hold not in all points with themselves Answ 1. We are beholding to you for your good opinion of Protestants the argu-is this They that hold not in all points with themselves are not Protestants The Waldenses hold not

its probable his Monk Austin was not free In the life of Austin p. 511 512 and therefore when he came amongst the Brittains who had the Gospel and many Bishops and learned men amongst them he was rejected by them for which Hierom Porter calls them Schismaticks maintaining errors yea that held many things repugnant to the unity of the Catholick Church Therefore we may at least probably suppose them Orthodox being opposite to those innovations the Bishop of R●●●e by his Apostles would have brought upon them 2 To your minor Saint Austines Church and doctrine were the same with the now Roman or the Roman Church in Gregory the Great 's time was the same it is at thi● present I answer could you prove this it would make much for you but hic labor h●c opus est this is too difficult a work for you and therefore you pass it off with a reference of us to a company of quotations to no purpose There is no Protestant Writer that I meet with that affirms Austins Church and Doctrine were the same with the now Roman Perkins in his Exposition of the Creed as I can understand him doth not but rather saith the contrary for speaking of the present Church of Rome he saith They hold justification by works of grace they maintain a daily sacrifice of the b dy of Christ in the Mass for the sins of quick and dead they worship images c. Thus then it appears that the old Church of Rome is changed and is now at this day of a Sp●use of Christ become an Harlot and therefore no more a Church of Christ indeed than the carkass of a dead man that wears a living mans garment is a living man though he look never so like him This same is the very judgement of all Protestants I meet with and is most fully and clearly demonstrated by the learned Doctor Morton in his above mentioned appeal where he largely shews what was the judgement of Saint Gregory in those main points of controversie betwixt Protestants and Papists and how far Rome at present is from that faith which Saint Gregory taught and all this he doth by the testimonies of the most learned Papists Your mention of all the English Cronicles is but a Popish vaunt be pleased in your next to mention the places where they affirm your doctrine to be the same with Saint Gregories and their words till then I suspend all further answer to this Argument which as it is the last it is the weakest and most evidently false in its propositions as I doubt not it will appear to the judicious Reader CHAP. XII Of certain Objections made against the Roman Church answered YOu begin your Chapter with a sad complaint of enemies of the Roman Church in these words The enemies of the Roman Church have not shewn more pride in contemning her power then malice in raising false and slanderous reports against her good name therefore I will endeauour in this Chapter to clear her fame mainly clouded and shot at by the ensuing objections Answ When you charge the Objectors with slander you seem to be ignorant of the nature and definition of slander There cannot be slander where there is no lying accusation or a charging of such things upon others whereof they are not guilty And this your Aquinas will tell you is true Now can you say that the Objectours charge you with that whereof you are not guilty If their accusation be false why do you not disown the things they charge you with but rather defend them You affirm that Christs Body may be in divers places at once that the Mass with Altars images and relicks are to be adored that Saints and Angels are Mediatours c. If it be true why do you charge the Objectors with slander in the reporting of them But let vs examine the Answers to the Objections 1 Objection THe first objection is The Church of Rome teacheth Christs body to be present in many places at once which implyeth contradiction Answ 1. The measure of Gods power is his will and his will is above the reach of our capacitie therefore no wonder if God oftentimes doth that we cannot dive into the understanding of I reply 1. If you speak of Gods absolute Power it s not measured by his Will God is able to do more then he hath done or will do Of this absolute power John the Baptist speaks Math. 3.9 God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham Thus we grant he is able to make more works and of a piece of bread to raise up an humane body he can turn one thing into another of a different kind This Power as it s not measured by Gods Will so it s not the foundation or reason of our faith whereby we believe the existence of any thing But 2 If you speak of Gods executive power which is the power measured by his Will whereof you speak then we affirme this presence is impossible to God because contrary to his will as I shall shew even now 3 Whereas you say Gods Will is above our capacity c. Rom. 11.34 Deutr. 29.29 I answer Gods Will comes under a twofold Consideration it s either secret or revealed that part of his will which is secret as it concerns not our knowledge so neither doth it call for our faith or obedience but his revealed will is for us to know and obey If then you speak of Gods secret will you shew your self presumptuous intruding into such things as you ought not but if onely of his revealed then you imply that this Politopie is expressed and revealed unto us Now this I utterly deny for evidence whereof I shall premise that there are two volumes of Gods will whereby it s fully expressed unto us viz. Reason and Scripture by the former its expressed more imperfectly and darkly by the latter most fully and clearly The former is subordinate to the latter and the latter is perfective of the former Whatsoever else testifies of Gods Will it s in subordination to these and is to be tryed by them Nor are we to account any mans dictate to be Gods will that doth not agree with one or both of these I shall therefore shew the dissonancy of your Doctrine 1. to Reason then 2. to Scripture 1. It s contrary to Reason Aquin. Suppl 3. part q. 83 Art 3. ad 4m. that one body should be present in many places at once without the destruction of that body Aquinas saith Vnum corpus c. One body cannot be at once locally in two places no not by a miracle and he gives this reason because to be in many places at once is repugnant to the very nature of an Individuum which is to be divided in it self for it would follow that it should be in a distinct posture whence it follows that for the same body to be locally at once in divers places includes contradictiion as for a

modest Bishops the weapons wherewith he was assaulted were meek exhortations perswasions entreaties not bulls curses racks tortures that holy age knew no such Ecclesiastical censures as Luther and his followers were acquainted with The French Historian gives this account of Protestants persecutions page 38. The Doctrine of Luther seemed to encrease by the greatnesse of persecutions which might be seen by the hot persecutions in the year 1534. for searches and informations were no sooner made of the prisoners but they were as speedily burnt quick tyed to a stake after swinged into the aire were let fall into the fire and so by a pullise pul'd up and down untill a man might see them all roasted and scorched by a small fire without complaining not able to speak by reason that they had taken out their tongue and gagged them 2. Arius did not set himself against the vices of an usurping lordly power which might have procured him hatred and revengefull opposition but Luther did whose two vices as Erasmus told Fredrick were that he touched the bellies of the Monks and the Crown of the Pope 3. Arius his heresy was not constantly maintained and stuck to Arius recanted and subscribed the Nicen Creed as did others his followers but Luther's Doctrine was constantly maintained by himself and followers without any recantation or counterfeit compliance 4. Arius his heresie did not seem crosse to reason but rather conformable but Luther's did crosse carnal reason the ground of Popish heresies In these regards Luther might more truly becompared with the Apostles than Arius And indeed his Doctrine though you are pleased to slander it as being acceptable and pleasing to the depravednesse of Nature and so contrary to the Apostles Doctrine is the very same for the substance of it that the Apostles taught being no way contrary to mortification of wills religious fasting chastity and the like And therefore it was not itching after novelties and pronnesse to libertinage that drew many after him but a desire of reformation both of Doctrine and Discipline which were exceeding corrupt in the Romish Church whereof very many were sensible and under which they groaned waiting for freedom and this is that which a great Papist saith Neither did Luther in this age come forth alone Alphons de Castro ado haeres epist nuncup but accompanied with a great troop as with a guard waiting for him as for their Captain and Leader who seemed to have expected him before he came and upon his coming did cleave unto him SHAPE III. PRotestants received their mission from Catholique Bishops in Queen Elizabeths daies and since You answer Ans If some did which is to be proved nay the contrary seems to be proved by Doctor Champney it is evident the greater part did not and what a Church must that companie make of which most are judged fit to preach the Word of God and administer the Sacraments without Authoritie Repl. 1. We had Protestant Bishops in England before Queen Elizabeths days eminent oppugners of Popish heresies then in the time of Queen Mary whom notwithstanding your fiery rage God preserved making them to survive her bloody raign by these were others afterways ordained as Bishop Parker who was consecrated by the imposition of hands of Bishop Barloe Bishop Coverdale Bishop Scory and two suffragans So that I know no Protestant that needs to use the shape you impose upon us nor do I think any doth but you set up moments and then shoot at them which is a very learned and ingenious prank But 2. Supposing it our Shape I say to your answer 1. Divers Popish Catholiques in Queen Maries days were Protestants in Queen Elizabeths and these might have an hand in Ordinations afterwards 2. Though the greater part of our Pastors received not Mission from Popeish Bishops yet they might have authority You beg the question when you tell us that they are not ordained by Popeish Bishops have no authority We had lawful Bishops Pastors in England before your Pope or any of his gowned Factors knew England But you answer 2ly Admit the calling of Protestant Bishops and Pastors were right in all of them it would not follow that the Protestant Church is true so long as she advanceth Protestantism contrary to the meaning of the Catholique Bishops who never impow●red any but in relation to the setting up and upholding of Catholique Religion Rep. 1. If you admit this it will follow according to your principles that there is personal succession and consequently a true Church inasmuch as derivati n of succession is so proper to the true Church that it cannot agree to any false as St. Hierom in Nucam 1. Observeth Sir you remember the words they are your own page 41. but oportet mendacem esse memorem 2. True Religion is not to be measured by mens meaning but by the Word of God So then if according to Gods Word protestantism be the true Religion it s no great matter what your Catholiques Bishops meaning be 3. Catholique Bishops ought to ordain men in order to the setting forth of the unsearchable riches of Christ Eph. 3.8 To preach the Gospel Col. 1.25 Mark 16.15 This is contained in the Scriptures If your Bishops ordain men to preach any thing else they are abusers of their power their ordination is impure and unlawfull and so far to be frustrated Thus our Protestant Bishops and Pastors that have been ordained by you retain that which is pure viz. power to preach the word and administer the Sacraments but reject that which is evil in your ordinations we retain the power which is good and from God but reject those circumstances of yours which accompany the conveiance of it and are evil 2ly You say Communion with the true Church being as necessary a requisite to the makeing up of a true Church as union of parts to the compleating of a natural body what colour for truth in the Protestant Church that is at variance with the Catholique of whom she glorieth to have her power and which she confesseth to be a true Church Repl. 1. I grant that communion with the true Church is necessary but your inference hereupon is vain For 1. We deny that the Popish Church is the Catholique Church You appropriate that name to your selves but who gives it you Indeed the Roman Church in her purity before shee was infected with the Leeven of Popery was a Catholique Church Euseb eccl Hist l. 4. c. 15. l. 10. c. 7. Socr. schol l. 2. c. 2. but so were other Churches called as well as shee with whom you hold no communion now nor they with you as the Church of Smyrna Alexandria Carthage 2. It s not necessary to the constitution of a true Church to have communion with you The Eastern Churches were as much at variance with you as Protestants are yet they were t●ue Churches The Affrican Bishops did oppose divers of your Popes one after another telling them they should

have nothing to do with the causes of men in their Provinces nor receive any such to communion as they did excommunicate yea Saint Cyprian and a company of Bishops with him did dye out of the communion of the Church of Rome Bell. l. 2. de Conc. c. 5. for any thing appear to the contrary yet they were true Bishops and their Churches true Churches Yea further supposing Communion had then been necessary it is not so now the corruption of your Church being greater then it was in Cyprians time so that Gods command doth take place with us 1 Tim. 6.3 5. 2 Cor. 6.14 15 c. Apoc. 18.4 and the example of the Apostles Acts 19.8.9 3. Protestants have Communion with the Catholique Church viz. that Church which hath ever since our Saviour maintained the Doctrine of the Gospel our fellowship is with the Apostles and primitive Churches whose Doctrine we receive and profess yea so far as there is any remainder of true Doctrine amongst you so far we have communion with you also 4. You deliver two palpable Lyes 1. That we glory to have our p wer from the Popi●h Church We look upon it not as our honor but as their misery who could not otherwise receive their power We account it our honour and glory in it that we are out of your Bethaven and that we have the ordinances of God within our selves 2. Lye that we confesse you to be a true Church We deny the Church of Rome to be a sound member of the true and Catholique Church We say you were once Bethel now Bethaven Rome was once a faithfull City but now become an harlot Her name is given her by God and acknowledged by us as belonging to her Apoc. 17.5 Mistery Babylon the great the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth 3ly You answer Pro estants derivation from Catholiques is not proo● for a personal succession of Bishops and Pastors agreeing in all points with Prot●stants which ought to be the scope and aim of that derivation i● being not required of Protestants to deduce a succession from Christ and h s Apostle● of men meerely sent but withal professing the Doctrine maintained in the Church of England Reply 1. I thought personal succession had been the main with you it being proper to the true Church onely as Doctrine you say is not But I see now succession of Doctrine is the more principall succession So unstable are men maintaining errors 2. In derivation of succession it s not necessary that those we derive from agree in all points with us If it were I know where your succession from Peter would be you not being able to name one Bishop that for above 1000 years after Christ did agree in all points with you Sometimes the Bishops and Pastors of the Church who have the power of ordination may be corrupt holding some errors which the ordained may be free from either altogether or in some measure or if not when they are ordained yet afterwards Now what rational man can question the calling of those who are thus ordained 3. We can shew a derivation of succession though not without some interruption of Bishops from Christ and his Apostles professing the main points of the Doctrine of the Church of England I deny not but there might be differences in lesser points but these could not nullifie our claim to them nor make that they should not be called Protestants Your rule therefore is not a very good one that Doctrine being in Nature much like unto number the least addition or Diminution altering its kind and grounding a new denomination But supposing it good and true we may thence unanswerably infer that your Religion is not the same with the Religion of the Apostles or Primitive Christians nor yet with those who lived but a little while ago your Church making frequent additions to former Doctrines 4ly You answer Protestants could not be mingled amongst Catholiques inasmuch as there is no agreement betwixt the Temple of God and Idols no concord with Christ and Belial 2 Cor. 6. The Ark of God and Dagon may not stand together 1 King 5. c Rep. 1. It s one thing to be amongst wicked men another thing to approve of them A good man may be in a corrupt Church in regard of presence who notwithstanding approves not of it When Israel was most corrupt and overspread with idolatry yet there were seven thousand that bowed not the knee to Baal Rom. 11.4 When our Saviour came the Jewish Church was very corrupt yet there were some few in it who groaning under the evils of it waited for the consolation of Israel The Prophet Isaiah speaks of a remnant that were left in the midst of a corrupt Church Isay 1.9 Yet none of these did approve of the corruptions but rather mourned for them Ezek. 9.4 If God had not his people in Babylon to what end doth he say come out of her my people Apoc. 18.4 God had a people in Babilon a people like corne among chaffe good fish amongst bad ones These till God gave an opportunity of delivering themselves did dwell with the daughter of Babilon Zech. 2.7 They had external communion but wanted inward affection to her they had no concord nor agreement with her in her grosser errors But you say It were a strange example if the Church should receive into her company lyers and innovators this would leave a stain upon her reputation make her sinceritie be suspected h●r Doctrine contemned and despised but she who is all fair Cant. 6. without spot or wrinkle Eph. 5. is free from any such guilt Rep. 1. It s no strange thing that a true Church may have in it those who are erroneous It was thus with Rome Corinth Galatia Philippi and the Churches of Asia Rev. 2.14 15 20. There is no Church can claim exemption The Popish Church hath had those in it whom you call lyers and innovators and upon that score have come into your expurgatory judices 2. You assert that of the Church of Rome which never any but Novatus and his followers did attribute to the visible Church viz. to be all faire without spot or wrinkle a priviledge belonging to the Church as triumphant or but imperfectly agreeing to the true members only of the visible Church in this World and herein you shew your self to be none of that society of Christians who generally maintained professed that their commission and power was to preach and inculcate that the Church of God militant was not without mixture of bad p. 81. 2. You take that for granted which we constantly deny that your Romish Synagogue is the true Church and all fair and without spot or wrinkle c. and that Protestants are lyers and innovators which you are yet to prove 3. Yet granting both these for Argument sake I affirm that maintainers of false Doctrine may be in the Church without all that danger you talke of while they lye