Selected quad for the lemma: saint_n
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A45320
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A survay of that foolish, seditious, scandalous, prophane libell, the protestation protested.
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Hall, Joseph, 1574-1656.
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1641
(1641)
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Wing H418; ESTC R533
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36,914
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52
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reverend Cobler or inspired Button maker did the same give me leave to remember you here of the late schisme of your congregation at Rotterd 〈◊〉 they upon debate were divided in two bodies each of them was the supreame Church of God upon earth and each of them gave commission to an honest Weaver to excommunicate the other this cannot but please you well though your discipline cannot because there is neither reason nor order in it I thinke it strange that you who deny all outward calling except that from the people should think the Curates None of the Ministers of Christ in that they derive their ministery from the Antichristian Hierarchy if no orders be necessary sure a mistake of orders cannot be much prejudiciall Hence let the world judge how both these malâ—cious factions spend their fury upon the Church of England the papists object that shee hath for feited her ordination you that she hath one but the papists they tell us we are noe Church because we want a Priesthoood you because we have one They will here of none but a Monarchicall subjection you doe establish a democracy in the Church or an anarchy rather they complain of perjury because we refuse to maintain their orders as if who amongst them had sworne canonicall obedience to a heriticall Bishop were obliged to be a heretike you of the want of purity because we doe not renounce all continuation and orders of the Church In spight of you both she shall still maintaine a visible succession in the miâ—istery from the very Apostles times may not the Church of Rome though in her old age more faulty give baptisme and may not this warrant the derivation of our orders from her first and better times but I crave you mercy Sir this argument doâ—h not concerne you who not after the Church of Rome only but also in the Church of England doe rebaptize You frame here an objection to your self concerning the antiquity of Arch-Bishops Dioâ—esan Bishops this you adde to distinguish them from these of the late edition for parishes and how doe you answer it First you tell us they were not knowne by the primitive Fathers but this is as grosse as to say the primitive fathers did not know themselves whom we undoubtedly know by a morall beliefe to have beene Bishops as we doe that the Saxons did here succeed the Britaines scarce a leafe in the Councels Fathers and Church histories that doth not speake this for us Secondly you tell us that government was corrupt even from the well-head but since I have proved to you that this was Christ the Apostles you will venture upon I hope you will mend your expression and retire Thirdly you will have this government aâ— limbe of papacy and I dare boldly-say it there is nothing more destructive of it for to maintaine that every Bishop is de jure divinâ— as you in the same place grant that the present bishops of England do is 〈◊〉 only to deny all dependence from Rome but to give her her deaths wound by lopping of the prerogative whereby she subsists for by vertue of this 〈…〉 come to her dispensations from her exemptions of 〈◊〉 and religious houses the maine pillers which if the bishops of Europe by man-seeming there office to be de jure divino would challeng as an usurpation her borrowed fathers might perhaps returne home to the first own 〈◊〉 You say the Pope and the Bishops of England hold their authority by the 〈…〉 â—amely from Christ so I hope duth the meanest 〈◊〉 sweeper amongst you his calling to preach to expound scriâ—pture to give the Sacraments and yet will be oftended if you think him or his argument popish though the Pope of Rome doe the very same here like your selfe that is a very compound of absurdity and boldnesse you mention Doctor Hall and his learned paines out upon thee for a fool and a babler The workes of that reverend pâ—infull and judicious bishop shall be entertained by the posterity with appâ—obation and thankfulnesse when the better times shal â—isse thee and thy associatâ— out of the Church the quintessence of you al do come short to the meanest croatchet of his learning judgement integrity eloquence nor shall these your calumnies be ought els to him but stigâ—ata Laudis cicatrices to testifie his conscience and resolution who had the courage to set his face against you the Amalakites when others turned the backe For 〈◊〉 his very citation refutes you you say he failes in that he cannot prove Romes succession from Peter and yet you have said his assertion is that he proved Saint Gregoryes succession from Peter But I forgive you you knew not before now 〈…〉 it that Gregoriâ— was bishop of Rome Now what if I should teach you that we in the Church of England perhaps have neither Christianity nor sacred orders from Rome sâ—re the first we had not for by the observation of Easter according to the tradition of the Easterne Church To let the tale of Simon Zelotes and Ioseph of Aramatheâ— passe it is most probable this Kingdome had the blessing of the Gospell from the Disciples of Iohn if after the Saxon devastation we were restored by Rome in some parts of the Iland the Northerns at the same time were converted to the faith by bishop Aydanus from Scotland as Beda mentions Lib. 3. Cap. 3. But this discourse is not for you who in the preceeding page hath prophainly called the Ministry it selfe a peâ—ce of Popery whether from Rome or not is all one to you such is your superlative hatred against all order Give me leave here to slip out of the way and meet with a friend of yours the Author of The petition for Bishops examined this man tells us our Arch-Bishops and Bishops were substituted to the places of the Arâ—hflamins Flamins of the heathens this is a now conceit that bishops are not from the new but old Rome not Antichristian but heathenish Here for all the grace you bragg of you may learne of nature that not the least shew of religion except this mad one of yours can subsist without 〈◊〉 cement this harmony the subordination in its office-betrers But will he have the Bishops heathenish 〈…〉 joy the roomes designed for the residence of the Flamins and are we not all Papists yea Pagans because such did once inhabit this kingdome Now I smel out the reason why you perswade so vehemently the pulling downe of Churches it is because of some inherent wickednesse in the place He saies further that the first foure or five hundred years there was Bishops in Scotland but that as he cites Ioannes Maior communi MonachoruÌ„ regebantur Concilio but their histories are there for it that Amphibalus was Bishop in the Isle of Man An. 237. and for some 100 of yeares after the Monkes were not so much as reckoned among the clergy much lesse had they dominion over them In the close of
this answer you are assured that the Government is protested against If such a worme as my self might presume to speak of that Honorable Iudicaturie and the pâ—otestation made by it I might upon better grounds argue that you and your sectaries are within the reach of the same my instance shall be in one point when I might in a hundred that of Magistracie your doctrine concerning it is point-blanck against the doctrine of the Church of England the Kings honor and estate the power and priviledg of Parliaments and that for to use your termes deserveth to be cut off and cast out as a fruitlesse withered branch and to be plucked up by the roots as a tree twice dead and as a plant not of Gods Planting Hitherto I might have taken you up by some paines but now you passe all understanding fall you once upon the businesse of reformation you rave perfectly like these Lunaticks who will perhaps speak sense doe they encounter with the purpose that first chased them out of their witts then streight they run out Sir by laughing at you you have spared me the cost of Physick for expelling malancholy Your first assertion is that it will be impossible to constitute a nationall Church agreeable in all points to the visible Congregation of Christ here you no lesse crosse the Consisteries than the Bishops and therefore it shall be convenient to leave you to their refutation It is your bragge that there is many thousand Saints whose hearts are perfect before God that is pleasing to you and shall these empty Pitchers these factious lights these trumpets of intent multiplyed to make a noyse afright the Kingdome I dare say that if from your party you deduce mad men and fooles and none of these are men envied with such as love for their owne ends to fish in your muddy waters scarâ—e a number yea scarse an unity shall remaine though you try the Sword of the Lord and of Geddon as a friend of yours did in another Kingdome the Church and state of England will ever have prudence to detect your Stratagems and courage to award your blowes What you meane by defiling of garments I know not but I know you have lately provided against that by your naked meetings Now you speake plaine Language in perswading a separation and forcing us to believe we are in no better condition than those Heathens to whome the Apostles first peached the Gospell for you tell us the Sheep must be called forth and gathered into Christs Folds and that it is a strange speech be you separate You therefore will begin ab ovo and call together the Holy ones to make up your new houshold congregations but how shall these be discended Onely by the infallibility and presumed omniscience of your spirit that of Errour not that of truth you onely know these few names and here you tell us that scaâ—se a number shall bee found to make up these holy meetings what are all your thousands evanished you boasted of in the last page oportuit mendacem esse memorem but I take you at your last word if there be so few as you profanely abuse that Scripture marked with the white stone in his Kingdome pray you spare us the paines of Separation separate your selves for some new colonie in Virginia and trouble not your pates about unpossibilitiâ—s would to God you would leave us or your madnesse you and then both of us should be at rest Now let the whole world judge if you be a fit man to usher in a reformation and thus boldly to thrust your impious sense upon the protestation made by the most honourable Parliament whose head is fraughted with such whimses and who can heare of nothing but the gathering of a new Church in this Kingdome And if we all had made a totall apostasy from the faith we should descry you blasphemously as the Apostles did when they came to plante Churches in a Country where the Gospell had not beene formerly preached not your eares but your neck is in danger for this But what answer you to the question if they have not received Baptisme Or are they not Christians Here something sticks in your throat you answer negatively by an equipollent Metaphor that the lame and blind are not to be offered up in a Sacriâ—ice to the Lord Do you thus tempt the patience of the Prince and people Is it nothing for you to object Paganisme to them at every word To call them profane ignorant unbaptized unchristian persons This were intollerable to any free soule and must induce all those who have the smallest affection to generosity and Religion to provide a way how such monsters as your selfe may be supprest You goe on and tell us the godly may not communicate with the profane Quo Donate ruis are not al profane to you that are good Church-men and obedient Subjects And must all these fall within the verge of your excommunication May we expect dum viatores sumus your contemplative perfection or that the wheate shall be here without the chaffe And know you what iniquity some of your holy Sisters might have committed yesternight if you communicate with them doe you partake of their profanation It may be you have so before nor is it a sinne in you or her but an oversight I see there is a necessity laid upon us to search the hearts of men to have their brests made of christall to finde out their very thoughts else no fellowship no communion But if every knowne sin be every mans where is Christs burthen What difference put you betwixt the head and the branch Others uncleannesse can no more defile you then your holinesse excuse them if you be for this separation you must either flye out of the world or your flight is in vain the best metal here hath its drosse the best graine its oftall there is need indeed of a Fanne and a Furnace but not that of yours destructive not purging Nor stay you here all are Dogges and Swine to you that will not be of your kennell nor wallow in your Puddle so your Founders the Pharises upbraided Christ with the name of a Wine bibber and said he had a Devill because he haunted with sinners and publicans while they themselves cleansed onely the outside of the Platter beware of their woe A little Leaven leaveneth the whole Lumpe never better knowne then of late by you what couzenage and hypocrisie have these yeares by-gone hid up in the Masse from the eye of Disciplin none must come to the Passeover except your selves who have not washen your hands in innocency but your tongues in the gall of Asps You seeme to speake of knowne evill doers if you meane such as are under the Churches censures you fight against your owne shadow none such are admitted to partake of our holy mysteries but if you understand as you doe those of a contrary judgement to your selfe for it is the first and your fancie about