according to the successioÌ„ of those Bishops vnto whoÌ„ only the Apostles coÌ„mitted the custody of the Church throughout the world the which saith he is come to vs. This saied Irenaeus doeth write in his third booke and second Chapter that he and his fellowes did withstand the Valentinians and the Marcionistes which were great heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles d A cursed glosse for it corrupteth the text for the tradition that he speaketh of had good warrant in the writeÌ„ word that is to say the doctrine not writen but receaued from age to age of the Apostles and so continued till their time He saith likewise vnto the Traditions which are of the Apostles and that by successioÌ„ of pastours haue beene vsed in the Church we doe persuade and prouoke those that speake against Traditions Hee writes as much more in the third Chapter of the saied booke Forasmuch saith he as it were to tedious to set forth in one booke the Successours of al the Churches and to tel theÌ„ one by one we doâ—â—â—â—â— throw those that for vaine glory doe seek to gather disciples togither touching them contrary to that that doeth appertaine vnto the traditions of the Apostles the which we doe shew to theÌ„ by the saied Traditions and by the faith that hath beene taught and is come to vs by succession of the Bishops of the great and ancient Church of Rome the which was founded by the two glorious Martirs and Apostles Saint Peter Saint Paul These are his words in his third booke aduersus haereses a The third you should say the fifth Chapter And at the beginning of the saied Chapter he saieth thus All these that will vnderstand the trueth may presently regard the traditions of the Apostles which are manifest throughout the world and wee cannot count the number of those that haue bene instituted and ordeined Bishops in the Church and their Successours till our daies which haue neither knowen nor taught any thing like vnto the fables and tales that these doe preach vnto vs. b If you say so you say it without cause and vntruely Not without cause we may now a daies say the like of the Lutherans Caluinistes other sects of our time After this he doeth set forth all the Popes of Rome c If the Popes euer since had beene like these you and wee should not haue needed to striue as we doe from Saint Peter vnto Eleutherius which was Pope in his time And he did affirme that that number did suffice to proue that the doctrine of Marcian and Valentinian was false very hurtfull because that it was vnknown or at the least not receiued or approued by the Church being vnder the gouernance of any of thâ—se Popes Then with greater reason ought prescription to take place against d True but such you shall neuer proue ours to bee a new doctrine which hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at the least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false perâ—itious hereticke The V. Chapter YOu must remember that Vincentius liued 1000 yeares ago by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ that therfore he speaketh of their time and of the Catholique Church and ancient faith that then was Whereof if you vnderstand him we say as he saied and are more willing to ioine and holde communion with that Church of Christ that he speaketh of then you but then his saying maketh directly against you For neither your Church nor faith was in his dayes We grauÌ„t you also that Irenaeus did vrge succession of persons to stop the mouthes of the heretiques as you shew in this Chapter out of him but withal then you must not forget that he liued not long after the Apostles times when as yet they whose Succession he alleadged continued in the sincerity of the Apostolique doctrine from which long ago your Roman Church as it is now hath fallen by antichristian apostacy For that hee calleth the principall succession and those bishops onely he teacheth are to be obeyed who togither with the succession of their Bishoprickes haue receiued the gift of trueth as I noted vnto you out of his fourth booke 43 Chapter in my answere to your first Chapter But Irenaeus no where prescribeth that his example of vrging hereticks to see their folly by Succession for a perpetuall rule to followe neither therein doeth he prophecy that for 1000 yeares after further those successiue lines of Bishops or any other would continue so in possession of the trueth of doctrine as that safely alwaies they might be ioyned vnto For he was not ignorant what was prophecied concerning the comming of Antichrist 2 Thess 2. and Reuel 17. and that Paul tolde to the Pastors of Ephesus Act. 20. that after his departure there would arise vp euen amongst themselues grieuous wolues not sparing the flock which must needs import that howsoeuer in his time he thought sometimes of succession of bishops that continued in the trueth that yet it was farre from his meaning to prophecy that so it would be alwaies You reason therefore in this point as one that to proue the stewes at Rome now to be pure virgins should alleadge for proofe thereof that they were so when they were yong children For euen like difference and ods there is betwixt the Church of Rome now and her bishops and pastours and that that was in the daies times that you and the authours that you alleage speake of For whereas vnto these times the Church of Rome her bishops pastours stoode and continued in the trueth since not only many of the bishops of Rome themselues whom you hold are freest furthest of of al other from erring as I haue shewed already most plainly fell into heresie but also al your Romish doctrine which we now count cal papistical was diuised found out since those times and is also not only beside but contrary to the doctrine then taught receiued by the ancient Church of Rome her pastours as ere I haue done with you I hope at least in great part sufficieÌ„tly to proue It should seeme therfore that either you in thus reasoning are very childish your selfe or els you thinke you haue to deale but with babes and fooles in that because Irenaeus that florished within two hundred yeares after Christ when the Church was yet pure and vndefiled in comparison of the tymes that followed could and did vrge Succession of persons ioined with succession of trueth therefore you may that liue 1500. yeares after Christ and more You must first proue that succession of trueth is vnseparable from personall succession that euer since and now also the Bishops pastours whose personall succession you bragge of haue continued in the trueth as well as they did whose names he reciteth Whereof neither shall either you or any of you be able to proue as long as the world standeth Fye therefore for shame that you
before vs agreeing in vnitie of faith as I haue already said For neither the naughtines of h There is no such there mentioned this is your common hap in your quotations It seemes you would haue said 2. Kings 16. Achas Num. 1. nor of Ioram nor of diuerse other great sinners which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Iesus Christ were not able to withstand the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham that is to saie that he would be borne of this line Euen so the ill liues and conuersation of diuerse wicked Popes that haue followed after Saint Peter haue neuer beene a This is true and yet you neuer the nearer For though al Papists faile in faith yet his church neuer faileth able to moue Christ to breake his promise that is to saie that the faith of his Church should neuer faile Math. 16. and that the gates of hell that is to saie of infidelity which are the portes of damnation should neuer preuaile against it b I see not how that chapter or any thing therein serueth to this purpose any whit at all Esay 58. Our aduersaries therefore that take such great paines to set forth in golden legends the liues of the wicked Popes that haue beene since Saint Peters time thinking thereby to ouerthrowe the succession of the Catholicke ecclesiasticall faith c Your comparison is odiou◠neither doe wee lay open their wicked liues to that ende you speake of but to shew that your glory is your shame doe no lesse offend God then if they should go about to proue the promise of God made to the Patriarches to bee vaine because of the evill liues of their successours Therefore those that doe reproche vnto vs now that the Popes of our daies are not altogither so holie as S. Peter wee doe confesse it But they cannot deny or they will confesse vnto vs that the aboue named euil Kings Achaz Ioram Manasses Amon Iechonias and others did leade no such holy liues as Abraham Isaac Iacob or Dauid yet notwithstanding those euil Kings haue beene set forth in the generation of our Sauiour as the fathers of the iust Iesus Christ Let them iudge then that haue any witte whether this bee a great folly or no to see how these crafty coggers of the scriptures should make many simple persons refuse to be the Popes spirituall children because they were sinners seeking thereby to ouerthrow all the ancient customes of the Church The VII Chapter WHither onely your succession doeth suffice to ouerthrow all our Religion or any part of it though you here confidently say it is and suppose that to be the cause why we reiect it I refer to the iudgement of the reader by that which hitherto hath beene saied by you and confuted by me concerning the same Whereby also I doubt not but euery indifferent reader may perceiue that we haue and doe still yeelde other causes of our reiection of it and not this at all Whereas you call our Religion here heresie that you haue learned of the corrupt Orator Tertullus Act. 24. But as he tearmeth poore Paul there a captaine of the Sect or heresie of the Nazarites and the high Priest and elders saied it was euen so yet hee was not ashamed of the Gospell of Christ which they so tearmed but stoutly saied before Felix to their faces that according to that way which they counted heresie he worshipped the God of his fathers beleeuing all that was writē in the law the Prophets so though you giue vs neuer so many nicknames and tearme our Religion neuer so oft new and an heresie and haue your high Priest of Rome and your elders to bear you out in so doing we neuer a whit the more mislike of our Religion as long as wee are able in trueth to say with Saint Paul which our consciences witnesse comfortably we may that therein we doe but beleeue that which is taught vs in the canonicall Scriptures Indeede not Caluin only but euery one of vs when we haue to doe with you in this question of your succession we tell you your reason drawen frō your succession is of no force seeing the Greekes whom you account heretiques may vse that argument as well as you But to preuent this our obiection against your argument of succession you say They haue not succession and continuance of doctrine the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuāce of pastors to shew the true recognisance of the Catholique Religion We are glad to see heare that euidence force of trueth hath wrong frō you this kinde of honest true replie to our obiection yet we thanke you not for it at all For ful gladly if our obiections had not driuen you to it perforce would you haue run on which bare succession of Bishops pastours without any mention of this Well howsoeuer you haue beene drawen to confesse thus much thereupon it doeth most euidently followe that if there be as little continuance lesse too in the Apostolicke faith and doctrine in your succession as there is amongst the Greekes then by your owne confession your succession is as weake a recognisance of the Catholique Religion as theirs And therefore the case thus standing you had neede to haue bestowed lesse paines to proue your personall succession and more to haue proued this succession and continuance of the true Catholicke doctrine for the other wtout this you see is nothing What a preposterous course is this then that you haue takē to take such leasure to bestow pains on that which when you haue gotten is nothing to find no leasure to bestow any paines on this which if you could haue proued your aduersaries would haue stoode with you no longer Enter yet into this controuersie when you will I dare vndertake if you will be tried in this case by the canonicall scriptures which as I haue shewed you must of necessity it shall easily be proued that notwithstanding all you can say against the Greekes your popish Religion consisteth of more heresies and is a greater Apostasie from the ancient Catholique Apostolique faith then theirs The greatest thing you charge thē withall is their denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost from the Father the Sonne which indeede if they denied in that sence that is obiected against them by you doubtles therin they were heretiques But it should seeme that they refuse only that word as not vnderstood of thē added as they say without the consent of the whole church to the creede of feare onely least by admitting the word they should thereby be enforced to cōfesse that he came not of one beginning but of two beginnings in the meane time vsing other words expressing in effect the same thing And if it be thus as in the last session of the Florētine councell it should seeme to be els where thē in that respect their cause is not so ill as
Catholique faith Catholique Bishops succeeding one another When as indeede and trueth it is as impossible for you to proue that you haue any iust right to anie of these as it was for those heretiques But howsoeuer you make some beleeue you haue all these yet I say vnto you with Saint August De vnitate Ecclesiae against the Epistle of Petilian chap. 10. That euen Catholique Bishops are not to bee consented vnto if that anie where they be deceiued in thinking anie thing contrarie to the Canonicall Scriptures And therefore when all commeth to all and when otherwise you haue runne your selues out of breath in conclusion will you will you by these Canonicall Scriptures must it bee determined whither you haue anie right to anie of these or no. For if you appeale from them as indeede you doe to the Church and fathers they will sende you backe againe for the triall whither that which they speake bee true or no onelie to the Scriptures as it maie appeare vnto you not onelie by this one place which I haue cyted out of Augustine alreadie but also by a number such like places both to bee founde in him else where and also in others For you maie reade in the first booke and seuenth Chapter of Theodoret that when Constantine sawe great controuersies in the Church in the Nicene councell and perceaued that euerie seuerall companie bragged of the trueth and so also of the Church and fathers to bee on their side to ende all those controuersies he saied Ex diuinitus inspiratis oraculis quaeramus solutionem eorum quae proponuntur that is out of the oracles that are come by diuine inspiration thereby meaning the Canonicall Scriptures let vs seeke the determination of those thinges that are propounded and so they did And as Constantine the Emperour was of this minde so it appeareth that Athanasius was of the same For to Serap hee saieth Solum exsacris literis condiscas meaning that the holie Ghost is God sufficiunt enim documenta quae in illis reperias Thou maiest learne it onelie out of the holie Scriptures for the documents or lessons which thou maiest finde in them are sufficient And Origen vpon the 16. to the Romanes in his tenth booke agreeing herein with these saieth that onely by the holie Scriptures the difference of trueth from errour in the examination thereof is to bee discerned And yet more plainely the same Origen in his first Homilie vpon Ieremie writeth of necessitie wee must call for the testimonie of the Scriptures for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses haue no credit Well therefore saied Augustine de naturâ gratiâ cap. 61. Onelie to the holy Scriptures doe I owe my consent without refusall And therefore franckely hee telleth Hierome in his nineteenth Epistle that hee had learned to yeelde that honour onely to the Canonicall Scriptures to thinke that the authours thereof therein neuer erred Where he plainly sheweth vs by his example how we should reade his writings or the writings of any other father namely beleeuing that which they wrote no further then we see it by scripture confirmed or by probable argument not dissenting from the trueth And the like he teacheth yet more plainelie in his 111. 112. Epistles to Fortunatus and Paulinus in the proeme of the third booke of the Trinity Wherefore with the same Augustine I confidently say and write whither of Christ or of his Church or of any thing that appertaineth to our faith and life I will not say wee that are not to bee compared with him that saied though wee but as hee addeth though an Angell from Heauen shall preach any thing besides that yee haue receaued marke hee saieth not contrarie but besides in the legall and Euangelicall scriptures let him be accursed in his third booke against Petilian cap. 6. Yea your owne Vincentius in the very place quoted by you denyeth not but taketh it for graunted that the scriptures of themselues alone are sufficient for all things yea and more then sufficient Whereupon it is euident that Vincentius by the rule line and true sence of the Catholique Church that there he speaketh of vnderstandeth onely such a sence or line as agreeth best with the scriptures themselues and the right rules of the interpreting of them wherof more afterwards In the meane time howsoeuer Vincentius his meaning was Augustine an ancienter father more famous somewhat then he speaking of the rule of faith that alwaies in interpreting of the scriptures men must haue an eie vnto and be ruled by saith that it is euen that which is taught in plainer places of the scripture de doctrinâ Christia lib 3. cap. 2. de trini lib. 1. cap. 2. 4. Yea in the same Augustine de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 6. distrinc 37. c. Relatum we may reade noted out of ClemeÌ„t that the church is not to receaue any fence for the true seÌ„ce of the scriptures which caÌ„not be proued so to be out of the scriptures theÌ„selues And therefore all interpretation of scripture newe or ancient deliuered by the fathers in former time or receiued of their children of this later age must and ought according to this rule and line bee iudged catholique or not The IIII. Chapter Cant. 1. WHose discourse doeth make me remeÌ„ber the complaint that the soule doeth make vnto her Spouse Iesus Christ beeing both represented by Salomon and his legitimate spouse I pray thee saith she O my deare frend tell mee in what place thou doest lie and rest at noâ—â— daies for I would be very glad and desirous to follow the flockes of thy felowes The which is as much to say as if she meant thus I see many shepheardes in these mountaines which haue great abundance of sheepe I see those of the Roman Church I see Donatistes I see Nouatians or to speake of our time I see one flocke follow Luther another follow a The Caluenists Zuinglians and Sacramentaries are commonly amongst you taken for one yet here that the variety of opinions may seeme the greater you reckon them vp as three distinct sorts Zuinglius another follow Caluin another the Anabaptists another the SacrameÌ„taries so forth diuers others of whoÌ„ wheÌ„ I demauÌ„d particulerly Whose is this flocke they do al answer me It is of Christ euery 〈◊〉 saieth this is the catholicke Church euery one doeth say that he is his fellow that is to say as touching the guiding of his flocke Now it is not possible that they doe al teach the trueth considering how they varie among theÌ„selues therefore I doe desire thee to tell me where thou doest rest thy selfe at noone daies That is as much to say teach me which is the true Catholicke Church which doeth celebrate the true misterie of the Crosse which is the place where thou wast nailed at noone daies beeing nailed both handes and feete Heare now the answere of Iesus Christ If thou doest not know the place
wordes well you shall finde that hee counted the waie to heauen straight as well in respect of religion as life and that there is nothing more vsuall with Dauid then indifferently without any such nice distinction to vse these wordes waies and pathes both in respecte of the one and the other you might easily perceiue if you were anie thing conuersant in his Psalmes looke vpon Christs time whereunto he had an especiall eie when hee vsed these wordes and you shall finde that true religion was a thing more geyson and rare then in the worlde and had fewer followers then an holy and a vertuous life For eueÌ„ many of the Pharisees and Philosophers made great shew of that that therefore to leade vs rather to thinke that in respect of Religion then maners he had vttered those wordes immediately thereupon he addeth beware of false Prophets And as for Dauid if your argument be grounded vpon that that he placeth the word waies in the first place and pathes in the later if you marke him well you shall oftentimes finde him to inuert that order in the Psalmes And Psalme 109. because you should plainly see that he referreth waies as wel to maners as to ReligioÌ„ he saieth take from me the way of lying and teach me the way of thy statutes And considering that you cannot be ignorant that Idolatry and Paganisme in Christs time was more common then Christs Religion therefore had 10000. that tooke it for true religion in comparison of one that tooke Christs so I wonder that you euer durst thus expound Christs wordes For by your expositioÌ„ he tolde them that it was better for them to embrace paganisme then his Religion for that was the common beaten way and his was but a small bie-path Againe in Liberius his time when it was an hard matter to finde one true Catholique for an 100. Arrians insomuch that Constantine saied vnto Liberius that he alone fauoured Athanasius Theodor. Eccles Hist lib. 2. cap. 16. by your rule Liberius did well in that seeing Arrianisme to be the common waie and his ancient Religion that then was but as a bie-path wherein few walked that he yeelded his subscriptioÌ„ to Arrianisme Indeede it should seem that this Pope Liberius was of your minde so long you care not I am sure as that you may haue a Pope on your side Wel yet if you had but remembred that the Turkish religioÌ„ is at this day hath beene a long time coÌ„mon to moe then your owne religioÌ„ is or euer was it might haue staied you froÌ„ teaching meÌ„ to measure religion by the coÌ„monnes of it or multitude of followers least you should haue so persuaded them to Turcisme But it may be you had rather haue it so seeing in coÌ„parisoÌ„ therof ours is but a narrow path wherein few doe walke then that they should follow vs. If your skil in interpreting of the scriptures in prescribing rules for the direction of men be no better then you haue shewed in this you may very well be a Doctour and great master in your blinde and ignorant kingdome of Popery but in the kingdome of Christ there is little hope that there will euer any great reckoning be made of you The XLI Chapter NOw to turne to the partition that we haue vpon the 34. and 37. of Ezechiel and vpon the tenth of Iohn it is plaine that we are the flockes of weake and sickelie sheepe and your disciples are the sheepe that runne this waie and that waie astraie those that are our a Howsoeuer that title is due vnto them they take it not vnto theÌ„ ill Prelats take vpon them the title of Mercenarii pastoris but vnto your ministers the titles of deuouring wolues may be applied b Onely of such as haue made shipwracke of conscience without anie scrupulositie of coÌ„science for you watch to none other intent but to make the sheepe runne out of the folde and to deuour them because that our pastours haue not taken care to keepe them And although they be not excusable aswell for their silence as for their naughty liues I see not your Patriarchs zealous manifesters amende much themselues the faults that they finde in vs for besides the true and certaine experience that wee haue had by the triall that we haue seene to our cost in this Realme within these fiue or six yeares c Penned then by such that had taught their peÌ„s to write lies I haue read full many a golden Legend of your sacred martyrs and holie Bishops which doe not altogither redound to the honour of your pretended reformed Church And among others Theodore de Beza Caluins successour in the Pontificate seat of the holy city of Geneua of whom such things are preached abroad that if the one halfe of them be true d Neither wil â—e nor any of vs so compare our selues he is scant so good a man as S. Iohn Baptist And because I would not haue you to mislike theÌ„ for their religioÌ„ I wil not alleage to verify this any Catholick author but soÌ„e of Luthers successors your first fouÌ„der who taught you to write so learnedly I would say railingly against the church of Rome Tilemanus Heshusius a minister of the LutheraÌ„s in the * Jn his booke of the true body of Christ in the sacrif writen in Latin book that I haue alreadie noted doeth openlie accuse the saied Beza of great infamy that he did not onlie content e Heat of conteÌ„tion made the man too credulous and so beleeued your malitious parasites that most impudently and falsly haue forged these things of him the fancie of his mind with leading a luxurious a liceÌ„tious life to staine his vow with a bilt of adulterous loue but that that is worse hee himselfe hath set forth in writing all his lasciuious acts the which saieth hee f His lasciuious songs and Epigrams he made and published whiles he was yours whereof he hath publickly in printe testified his repentance mislike since he was ours he hath song in sacrilegerime to the Instrument to manifest his sinne to the whole sight of the worlde And in that verie booke hee doeth say that Beza who as I haue tolde you is a Bishop of the holie Cittie of Geneua is an infamous monster whose naughtie life any man may reade set forth by him selfe in his owne Epigrams and notwithstanding saieth he to heare him speake you would thinke hee vvere Saint Iohn Baptist for he can talke of nothing but of his holie life This same very minister in the booke where he writeth these things he doeth laie to g The more shame for him for it is a monstrous and notorious slander Bezaes charge that he tooke with him to Geneua another mans wife without the knowledge of her husband whose name was Candida h Will an argument from one to al follow with papists and yet this one not proued such an one neither