lesse affectioned than Thomas telling vs that Thomas sayeth plainly that we are obliged and bounde vpon paine of euerlasting damnation to beleeue that the Pope is the only supreme head of the whole Church And yet when he hath all done Thom. plainly sayth not so it is but our Thomas his plaine lye And though Thomas him selfe in that he sayde made also a plaine lye as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 affectioned to the Pope yet shoulde you haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wordes more truely master Stapleton if ye 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pressed the Bishop with his authoritie But for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thomas his partialitie woulde soone be 〈◊〉 â—…o 〈◊〉 more weight thereto ye say Saint Thomas proueth his assertion by Cyrill and Mâ—…ximus two notable and auncient wryters among the Gâ—…ans VVherefore it followeth that neyther master Feckenham nor master Horne nor any other Christian man can knowe the contrarie beeing such an euident and daungerous falsehood as importeth eternall damnation Sée howe one Thomas here were it but for name-sake woulde still helpe another Thomas he careth not by what meanes hooke or crooke both belying Thomas and these notable fathers also Where sayd Thomas your wordes aboue alleaged Where had he them out of Cyrill and Maximus where haue Cyrill and Maximus that assertion Shew it and then you cleare your selfe In deede Thomas being a late affectioned writer herein alleageth proufes out of both Cyrill Max. but they proue no such assertion Cyrill hath no such wordes in his booke of Thesaurus and that epistle of Maximus is not extant for ought that I can learne and yet Thomas doth but wrest both their sayings to proue his title that it is of necessitie of saluatioÌ„ to be vnder the B. of Rome The sentence that he fathereth out of Cyril to proue his saying and yet notwithstanding proueth it not is this Itaque fratres c. Therefore brethren if wee followe Christ let vs as his sheepe heare his voyce abyding in the Churche of Peter and let vs not be puft vp with the winde of pryde least peraduenture the winding serpent cast vs out for conteÌ„tion as long since it cast Eue out of paradise Can you or Thomas or any other coÌ„clude your assertion or anything for your Pope on this saying ye wil vrge these wordes the Church of Peter Thinke ye he ment the church to be S. Peters patrimonie as ye terme it or the Church of S. Peters dominion if ye so thinke S. Peter hym self gaynsayth it saying that he is him self but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 consenior a fellowe Elder or Priest and witnesse of Christes passions and not the Lord but Christ the Lorde of his Church and him selfe with other not to be rulers and princes among the clergy but they be only pastors formes of the flocke Christ alone being the Prince of the Pastors So that if you meane hereby S. Peter to be the owner and Lorde of the Church as your Pope at this day taketh on him to be this sentence maketh nothing for him but quite agaynst him For neither doth the Pope followe the humilitie of Christ nor heare his voyce as Cirill willeth neither followeth he Peter of whome he craketh but is puft vp with the winde of pride Whiche Cirill forbiddeth and therfore is cast out with the winding serpent But what Cirill meaneth by the church of Peter euen the other sentence following may declare of Maximus Coadunatam fundatam super Petram confessionis Petri dicimus vniuersalem ecclesiaâ—… sicundum definitionem saluatoris in qua necessario salutis animarum nostraruÌ„ est remanere ei obedire suam seruantes fidem confessionem VVe call that the vniuersall Church according to the definition of our Sauiour the which is vnited togither and founded vpon the Rocke of Peters confession in the which it is necessarie to remayne for the saluation of our soules and to obey it keeping the fayth and confession thereof This sentence well expoundeth the other The Church of S. Peter that is to say the Church vnited and founded vpon the rocke of Peters confession not of Peters rule and patrimonie but of his confession which Rocke is onely Christe the corner stone on whome onely the Churche is founded and in whome as liuely stories of the buylding we are vnited To this Churche in déede muste we be obedient and remayne in it kéeping the fayth and confession thereof But what doth this proue for the obedience to the Pope his Church dothe it not rather detect his church not to be the vniuersal Church wherof Maximus speaketh that Christ hath defined howsoeuer the Papistes crake of the vniuersall church syth it is not vnited togither on the rocke but on the sands of mens traditions and founded as you say vpon Peter not as Christ sayd vpon the Rocke â–ª Since it kéepeth not this faith confession nor remaineth in it nor obeyeth it it is not Christes true vniuersall Church neither ought we to remayne in it or obey it But as the Angell calleth vs exite de illa populus mens c. Come out of hir my people and be not partakers of hir offences least ye taste also of hir plagues And thus by Maximus saying howsoeuer Thomas as an affectionate late writer doth wrest the same to the obedience of the Pope and his Churche when we examine Christes true definition and Peters confession we finde that we are obliged and bounde to renounce the Pope and his Churche and that vpon payne of euerlasting damnation But nowe M. Stapl. let vs also sée your owne proper argumentes oute of Thomas Thomas sayth the Pope is the only supreme head of the whole Church wherin he quite excludeth Christ Ergo we are obliged and bound to beleeue the same vpon payne of euerlasting damnation Thomas sayth we are obliged and bounde to beléeue the Popes supremacie vpon payne of damnation Ergo the B. is to be charged with malicious and wilfull ignoraunce Thomas sayth we are obliged and bounde to beleeue the Popes supremacie vpon payne of damnation Ergo M. Feckenham is fully and effectually discharged of malicious and wilfull ignorance Thomas his distinction of ignoraunce is alledged of the Byshop Ergo the Byshop is bounde to allowe his authoritie simply in all matters or in this of the Byshop of Romes supremacie Thomas cyteth Cirill and Maximus to proue his assertion Ergo â–ª the matter is so playne that the Byshop nor any other can know the contrarie These writers say so or rather as is shewed are wrested to say that they say not Ergo it is suche an euidente and dangerous falshood as importeth eternall damnation These are the wise and worshipfull conclusions to repeate your owne termes that ye gather on the authoritie of Thomas bicause the byshop cited him in the sayde diuision of ignoraunce wherefore ye say he shall vvinne small vvorship by alleaging of S. Thomas Howbeit you to win much worship and great honor by alleaging him haue aduentured
punish to suche obstinate and trayterous resisters of hir godly power as you and your sect are to yea and that vnder paine of premunire and plaine â—…reason to These are the Nine markes which master Stapleton setteth newe vp Of which howe wise soone be howe slaunderous other some and howe wide all be from the â—…ue in question I remitte to the indifferent Readers iudgement For mine owne part as I sawe the shamelesse dealing of this student studying with all his endeuour â—…oelude the Bishops ensamples and to deceyue the Reader with these tryfles so was I halfe ashamed to haue answered them any thing being altogither vnworthie of any aunswere knowing that to the wise folly detectes it selfe But least any one shoulde be deceyueâ—… by this false ayme giuer I haue somewhat more largely shewed his dealing in these markes than otherwise I would And yet as the impudencie of this man may further moue occasion hereafter hée may perhappes heare more than he or his fellowes would that all the worlde shoulde sée Onely nowe it sufficeth to haue shewed the insufficiencie of his argumentes and to haue cleared from his cauillations these ensamples of the Bishops recorded in the old testament Wherof the Bishop mencioned not one that proued not Master Feckenhams demaunde and issue Any such supreme gouernment as hath the Queenes maiestie And therfore M. Stapletons conclusion is like the residue of his Nine markes if it be not rather most fonde of all And sauing his rhetoricke rayling scoffes and his vaine triumphing before the victorie is nothing else but wordes of course O Master Horne sayth he your manifolde vntruthes are deciphered and vnbuckeled ye are espied ye are espied I say well ynough that ye come not by a thousande yardes and more nigh the marke Your Bow is to weake your armes to feeble to shoote with any your commendation at this mark yea if ye were as good an Archer as were that famous Robin Hoode or little Iohn VVell shift your Bowe or at the least wise your String Let the olde Testament go and proceede to your other proofes wherein wee will nowe see if you can shoote any streighter For hitherto ye haue shotte all awrie and as a man maye say lyke a blynde man See nowe to your selfe from hencefoorth that yee open your eyes and that yee haue a good eye and a good ayme to the marke we haue set before you If not bee you assured wee will make no curtesie eftsoones to put you in remembrance For hitherto yee haue nothing prooued that Princes ought whiche ye promised to proue or that they may take vppon them suche gouernement as I haue layde before you and suche as ye must in euery part iustifie if eyther ye will M. Feckenham shall take the othe or that ye entende to proue your selfe a true man of your worde This were a hard matter for you to proue your selfe to be Master Stapleton a true man of your worde hauing nowe béene taken tardie in your wordes with so many open lies And euen here with no lesse impudencie ye would haue the Bishop in euery part to iustifie not such issue as he ioyned in with master Feckenham but such as you in euery part do falsifie Did the Bishop promise to master Feckenham to proue that Princes ought or maye take vppon them such gouernment as you haue layde before him Or did master Feckenham request any suche proufe or not rather Any such gouernment as the Queenes maiestie doth clay me and take vpon hir This is the right marke that they haue set before them and not these markes that say you we haue set before you You assure vs that ye will make no curtesie But ye néede not assure vs hereof master Stapleton we will beleue you without assurance that ye know little curtesie and can make lesse nor ye will make any if ye coulde Little curtesie except butcherly curtesie haue we felt of your stiffenecked and frowarde generation and lesse we looke for and none we craue at your vncurteous vnmercifull hands although more mercie and curtesie be shewed to you Yet though ye assure vs of no curtesie yée might and should assure vs of truth and honestie of which if we can haue no assuraunce of you be ye assured againe master Stapleton ye shall get as little credite as we shall get little curtesie But to winne you better credite in your vaine triumphant conclusion ye knit vp al your Nine marks with Robin Whood and little Iohn lacking but one of your Popes Courtisanes and some Louaine Franciscan to haue played Frier Lucke and mayde Marian and so to haue made vp the full messe Might not a man say for O M. Horne O Master Stap. these toyes are full vnsitting and nought to the purpose to or fro And for al ye cry he shootes awrie lyke a blinde man thoughe a blinde man can not sée to shoote yet could a béetle blindman both heare and thinke small wisdome in suche great boast and well perceyue that the onely turning of O master Stapleton for O master Horne would hitte you so little a wrie euen with your owne wordes that there néedes no further aunswere The. 18. Diuision NOwe where the Bishop alleaged out of the olde testament all these foresayde ensamples and master Feck vnder the pretence of Christes gospell restrayning himselfe to the new Testament goeth about thereby to clude and shake of all the Bishops ensamples of the olde Testament The Bishop proueth this to be the very shift and practise of the Donatistes denying that Princes ought to entermeddle in ecclesiasticall matters as now the Papists denie the same Who when they were vrged by the learned fathers Saint Augustine and other with suche like ensamples as the Bishop hath alleaged out of the olde testament they reiected them and would haue all examples restrayned to the newe testament as here doth master Feckenham which the Bishop sheweth to haue bene as Saint Augustine calleth it An odious and wicked guile of the Donatistes and thereon concludeth that eyther he must shunne suche heriticall shiftes or else that following the very error defence shift and paterne of the Donatists he bewrayeth him selfe therein to be a couert Donatist The effect of master Stapletons Counterblast to this is deuided into sixe partes The first is an inuectiue against the order of the Bishops writing The second is a clearing of master Feckenham to be no heretike The thirde is a returning of his charge of heresies to vs The fourth an enumeration and conference of diuerse heresies with oure doctrine The fift a reuersing to vs of the crime wherwith master Feckenham is charged to follow the Donatists in diuerse pointes resembling vs to them and them to vs The sixt and last a remouing of those motiues whereby the Bishop charged M. Feckenham to play the Donatists part In the first part or euer he enter into the matter he maketh as it were a Preface agaynst
haue thought they had done God good seruice too so that he would haue maintayned them And do not you euen so what els maketh ye crie vpon the Princes beyond the seas with all kinde of torments to destroy the Protestants If Princes would aduise them selues or euer they beléeued you so lightly and would not destroy their subiects till they had sit in iudgmâ—…t heard discussed both parties causes throughly ye would not be halfe so hastie Ye would then crie to the contrarie that you must only be iudges they must onely beleue you strike onely them whom you shall bidde them strike Contrarywise where the Princes espying your falshood forsake your errours and sette out euen very milde lawes against you then ye change your coppie and crie out euery thing is extreme crueltie ye are too too sore handled and oppressed then ye extoll beyonde the moone lenitie and sufferance and winche like a gald horse at the least thing that toucheth you And thus euery way do you still shew your selues to be the very Donatistes Now that ye haue as you conceyue with your selfe giuen vs so great a foyle ye enter into your thirde parte saying VVe may now proceede to the remnant of your booke sauing that this in no wise must be ouerhipped that euen by your owne wordes here ye purge M. Feckenham from this crime ye laide vnto him euen now for refusing the proufeâ—… taken out of the old Testament Now for God M. St. since hitherto ye haue cléered him so sclenderly that ye haue more bewrapped him and your selfe also in this crime let nothing in any case be forgotten or ouerhipped that any wayes may helpe the matter forwarde for hitherto it rather hath gone backward but now there is good hope M. Feckenham shall take a good purgation euen of the Bishops owne making that you M. Stap. will minister to him which wil so worke vpon him make him haue so good a stoole that he shal be clerely purged of this crime of Donatistes â—…o to then M. Stapl and let vs sée how apothecarylike you can minister the same For if as ye say say you the order gouernment that Christ left behind in the Gospell new Testament is the order rule gouernment in ecclesiastical causes practised by the Kings of the old Testament then will it follow that M. Feckenham yelding to the gouernment of the new doth not exclude but â—…ather comprehende the gouernment of the old Testament also both being especially as ye say all one Is this the purgation M. St. that ye will minister to M. Feckenham would to God ye could make him receyue anâ—… brooke this sentence if you would take it also I warrent ye it would so purge you of your old leuen sowre dough that ye should no more be Donatists nor Papistes neither if ye receyue and well digest this little sentence The order and gouernment that Christ left behinde in the new Testament is the order rule and gouernment in Ecclesiasticall causes practised by the kinges of the old Testament For then giue ye Princes that that ye haue all this while denied theÌ„ But do ye thinke M. Feckenham will wittingly and willingly receiue this sentence that which in déede followeth necessarily thereon The sentence is true but M. Feck for all that may be a lier and you another For I warrant you M. Feck granteth this no â—…urder than as the Donatists he may temper it to make it seeme to serue his turne Why say you if he grant the onâ—… he doth not exclude but rather comprehende the other Nay M. St. M. Feck coÌ„preheÌ„des it not but shoonnes it as agaynst him by your owne confession But the olde being comprehended by the newe Master Feckenham is contrarie wise by force of argument graunting the newe enforced by the olde Not that he comprehendeth it but is comprehended of it and driuen to yeelde thereto of his aduersarie by conclusion of reasoning the one including the other But rather than he will do this voluntarily he will rather exclude them both the olde and the newe testament also and as he hath done burne them both togither The. 20. Diuision THe Bishop in this diuision first gathereth his full conclusion of all these testimonies into this argument What gouernment order and dutifulnesse so euer belonging to any God hath prefigured and promised before hande by his Prophetes in the holy scriptures of the olde Testament to be performed by Christ those of his Kingdom that is the gouernment order and dutifulnesse set forth and required in the Gospell or new testament But that faythfull Emperours Kinges and Rulers ought of dutie as belonging to their office to claime and take vpon them the gouernment authoritie power care and seruice of God the Lorde in matters of Religion or causes Ecclesiasticall was an order and dutifulnesse for them prefigured and forepromised of God by his Prophetes in the Scriptures of the olde Testament as Saint Augustine hath sufficiently witnessed Ergo Christian Emperors Kings and Rulers owe of dutie as belonging to their office to clayme and take vpon them the gouernment authoritie power care and seruice of God their Lorde in matters of Religion or spirituall ecclesiasticall causes is the gouernment order and dutifulnesse setforth and required in the Gospell or new Testament The Bishop hauing thusfully concluded these Testimonies he yet confirmeth them further with more authorities of the Prophete Esay with Lyra his exposition therevpon and the example of Constantine for proufe of the same At this master Stapleton first carpeth by certaine marginall notes or euer he blowe vp the Chapter of his Counterblast thereto The minor of the Bishops conclusion for the Princes gouernment authoritie power care c. he grauÌ„teth but not such supreme gouernment sayth he as the othe prescribeth He graunteth also Saint Augustine to witnesse this the Princes gouernment but no such large and supreme gouernment as we attribute now to them Againe he graunteth this supreme gouernment is in causes ecclesiasticall â–ª but not in all causes ecclesiasticall And so graunting that the Bishop concludeth well in some such thing you conclude not sayth he in all things and causes and therefore you conclude nothing agaynst vs. Lastly he graunteth all the Bishops testimonies concerning Constantine but he denieth that it maketh any thing for vs. Nowe after these marginall notes prefixed he entreth into his Chapter pretending to open the weakenesse of the Bishops conclusion and of other his proues oute of holie Scripture And first his aunswere to this diuision he deuideth in thrée partes First he graunteth all that the Bishop hath sayde but denieth that it is sufficient Secondly he quarrelleth about this that the Bishop calleth the Emperour Constantine a Bishop as Eusebius nameth him Thirdly he chalengeth him for calling Idoll Image Now to the first parte to sée whether all these grauntes make sufficiently for vs and conclude against him yea
effectuall to the purpose we shall sée anon Onely now I note it to shew your former vntruth M. St. saying the Bishop onely cited a sentence or two out of the new testament besides your frowarde blindnesse the more to be noted herein For as there ye could not or would not sée this sentence as other that you omit likewise so here ye note particulerly nothing so much as this onely sentence yea you will not let escape the aduantage as you conceyued of one word yet the word and al when al is done maketh cleane against you For where in citing this sentence the B. by the way of a parenthesis alleged S. Augustines interpretation for the worde godlinesse to import the true and chief or proper worship of God M. Stap. obiecteth falsehood and vntrue reporte or at least mistaking of S. Augustine And concludeth thereon a generall 〈◊〉 so aptly and truely ye alleage your doctours Alacke master Stap. that ye shoulde be driuen to these thiftes that finding no iust matter wherein to improue the Bishop ye runne to such trifling quarels as this As though the Bishop had some great foyle by Saint Augustines wordes or they had bene so darke and mysticall that they coulde not lightly haue béene vnderstood Saint Augustines wordes are these Sed loquemar de hominis sapientia c. But we wil speake of the wisedome of man howbeit of true wisedome that is according to God the true chiefe worship of him which in one word is in Greke called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 VVhich name our men as we haue alreadie declared willing also to interprete it in one woorde called it godlinesse VVhen godlinesse among the Greekes is more vsually called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 bycause it can not perfitely be interpreted in one woorde is interpreted better in two woordes so that it is rather called Gods worship Thus farre S. Augustine and what is here that swerueth from the B. saying That S. Augustine interpreteth godlynesse the true worship of god Which as it is true in both wordes for what signifieth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but ageed iust lawfull and godly worshippe so S. Augustine vnderstode it in both wordes although the one in vsuall speach want a proper Latine name as hath the other And likewise in our Englishe tongue while we would expresse Gods worship which is two wordes after the Latine and woulde terme it in one worde we call it Godlynesse as S. Augustine telleth howe the Latines called it Pietas True it is that S. Paule vseth the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which the Bishop denieth not Neyther haue ye anye more fault to finde with his than with S. Augustines or any others traÌ„slation calling it godlynesse If ye be so angry that the Bishop shoulde say it meaneth Gods seruice why be ye not angry with your selfe Do ye not sée how like a blynde hobbe about the house as ye merily terme it ye râ—…p your selfe vpon the scâ—…nce for did not your selfe both in the beginning of this Chap. tell vs that in the first table consisted the true religion and spiritual seruice that is due from man to God And also euen in this your further finding fault ye confesse that by their peaceable gouernement we might with more quiet attende to Gods seruice and that this was S. Paules only meaning and no further which were it so yet thereby then â—…ement not onely godlinesse of lyfe but also Gods seruice as your self interpret it yet ye blame the Bishop for saying S. Augustine sâ—… interpretes it But the Bishop not only proued this to be S. Augustines minde by this sentence alone but by mâ—… sentences afterward all which it pleased you to let alone and go sneaking by them and come peaking in with this Howbeit euen in this to satisfie ye further ye shal sée that this is not only S. Augustines exposition by this worde Godlynesse to vnderstande Gods seruice and true religion but the exposition of other fathers also Chrysostome vnderstandeth this woorde Godlynesse so largely that it comprehendeth al truâ—…h offaith doctrine religion integâ—…itie of life also Omne inquit dogma c. Euery opinion saith he is made perfect not onely with godlynesse but also with integritie of life I or godlinesse is also to be sought for in that part For what auayleth it if keping the godlynesse of faith thou art wicked in workes Likewise S. Ambrose Vt in pacâ—… c. That in peace in tranquilitie of minde and quietly we myght serue God the Lorde c. That therefore these things might bee kept quietnesse is necessary that acceptable obedience might bee rendred vnto God. So Haiâ—…o Pietas â—…st â—…ulius religio oâ—…nipotentis des c. Godlynesse is the worship and religion of almightie God. So theÌ„ glosse interlined Cum omni pietate castitate with all godlynesse and chastitie id est â—…ultu religione integritate fides that is to say the worship and religion and integritie of fayth And Lyra himselfe In omni pietate id est cultu dei debite In all godlynesse that is to say in the dutâ—…full worship of God. So likewyse Hygh the Carâ—…inall In omni pietate in cultu religione diuina â–ª In all godlynesse that is in the worship and diuine religion Et 〈◊〉 integritate fides hac duo sunt necessaria vt fides interior seruetur incorrâ—…pta cultiu exterior diuinâ—… in omnibus teneatur And in chastitie that is in the integritie of faith these two are necessarie that the inwarde â—…ayth shoulde be kept incorrupted â–ª and that the outwarde worship should be holden in all diuine things This sufficeth to cléere the Bishop of wresting the signification of the worde Godlynesse affirming it to meane the true chiefe or proper worship of God contrarie to your péeuishe wresting although therein ye contrarie your owne selfe confessing also that it meaneth Gods seruice and yet ye quarrell thereat in the Bishop saying As though Princes hauing charge therof should also haue authoritie to appoint such worship If ye meane by appointing such absolute authoritie as your Pope vsurpeth that the appointment of what he please to appoynt for a worship and seruice of God belongeth to him it is but your ordinarie surâ—…ised slaunder and is the proper doing of your Pope If ye meane a charge to appoint or commaund that the only true religion which God hath appointed be set forth and by the ministers of God obserued It is playne the S. Paule and al these fathers ment no lesse Nay say you S. Paule speaketh here of no such or of any authoritie at all in Princes but only that by their peaceable gouermeÌ„t we might with the more quiet attende to Gods seruice What M. St speaketh S. Paule there of no authoritie at all in Princes saith he not in most plaine wordes for kings and all men that be in authoritie Haue those
that reckens without his hoste must recken twice But a Gods name as master Stapleton cryeth let vs cheerefully proceede on We are almost at an ende of this first booke of his The. 25. Diuision AS the Bishop hitherto on the wordes of Saint Pauls Rom. 13. calling the Prince Gods minister hath by the fathers Chrysostome and S. Augustine and by these Ecclesiastical historiographers Eusebius Nicephorus about these two Emperours shewed sufficiently how farre this ministerie stretcheth and wherein it chiefly consisteth so concluding this for the other testimonie of S. Paule alleaged he sheweth the endes and boundes of the Princes gouernment not onely to stretch to the conseruation of ciuill peace outwarde tranquillity but also to the maintenance and preseruing of Gods true religion To the confirmation of this sentence of the Apostle he citeth Chrysost. coÌ„cluding hereon that these two parts and notes of a princes gouernmeÌ„t are so knit togither that the one cannot be without the other therfore both are necessary to be required in a prince And that thus the auncient Christian Princes did consider of their duties he citeth out of Cyrill the testimonies of the Emperours Theodosius and Ualentinian Master Stapletons aunswere to this chiefly standeth in thrée poyntes First he querelleth with the Bishop for calling these Emperors Christian Emperours Secondly he yeldeth to the Bishope allegation of Saint Paule and Chrysostome as rather for him than against him thereto trauayleth in bringing forth ensamples Thirdely to the testimonies of Ualentinian and Theodosius he replyeth with other testimonies of the sayde Emperours All the first part is friuolous and to no effect nor aunswering the argument of the Bishops conclusion which is this All Christian princes notable and godly doings that are necessarily belonging to their office are paterns for other Princes to beholde and do their dutie to their subiects by But these and such like Princes are by the ecclesiastical writers commended for their notable doings in the maintenance and furtherance of Christian religion as doings necessarily perteyning to their office Ergo they are paterns examples and glasses for other Christian Princes to beholde and to learne thereby to do their dutie to their subiects in the maintenance and furtherance of Christian Religion To this master Stap. sayth neuer a worde but falleth a rayling on the Bishop for calling this Emperour Christian Emperour And first in his sume he sweareth by God that he he will not feare the Bishops conclusion syth the antecedent was so naught And shall we nowe M. Horne sayth he your antecedent matter beeing so naught greatly feare the consequent and conclusion ye will hereof inferre Nay pardie Well sworne master Stapleton ye can not sweare by a greater But if one of your companie would do so much for me as to remember you but with a good phillip that your foreheade smarted withall ye woulde not thus lightly take the name of God in vaine but it was done in this your beginning ex abrupto and shall we c. to shewe your bolde manhoode Shall we feare say you the Bishops conclusion his antecedent being so naught nay perdie No in no wyse M. Stapl. feare it not but stande to it euen as you did to the other that is to say take your héeles and runne quite away from it And be it naught or be it good aunswere not a worde thereto But onely wrangle aboute some bye worde or other finding play with the Reader aboute other matters and thâ—…n euen as you aunswered the antecedent so shall ye shewe your selfe constant in aunswering the conclusion For what else is all your first part where if ye feare not the Bishops consequent ye should denie it and shew some reason thereof or distinguish the same or else ye graunt it but a bare shifting off to other matters as this bicause the Bishop called the Emperour on Nicephorus his commenmendation a Christian Emperour an example a spectacle a glasse for other as one that refourmed Religion to the purenesse thereof This say you in suche a personage as yee counterfeyâ—… can not bee but a deadlye and a mortall sinne Herevppon ye snatche occasion to fling at master Foxes bóoke of Martyrs once againe about M. Doctor VVesalian of whome ye say ye spake before Here againe ye come to your former Qu like the 〈◊〉 Pharisey despising the Bishop as one that is farre from the knowledge of Bishop White and Bishop Gardiner these are Reuerend fathers with you as for the bishop nowe is a verye poore sielie Clerke and howe mete to occupie such a roume ye leaue it to others discrete and vpright iudgement There is no doubt M. Stapleton but that ye meane some discrete and vpright iudges to iudge this matter of both their learnings ye shewe your selfe so vpright betwéene them But what shall those discrete men iudge of your vprightnesse and discretion in aunswering For what is anye of these things to the purpose although setting aside this your impudent outfacing what man it was well knowen what mightie great Clerkes the better of these twaine Bishop Gardiner and Bishop VVhite were either for law or for versifying either for a Sophister or a schoolemaister And yet in these pointes were they neither in primis secundis nor in â—…ertijs As for any déepe knowledge of Diuinitie or of ecclesiastical stories which had bene fitter for a Bishop I trow Iwis it was not so great but that a meaner man than the Bishop that now is might hasarde a comparison with theÌ„ But comparisons they say are odious I speake it not to the dispraise of their learning woulde God such as it was they had emploiedit better to the glory of God the giuer and the edifying of his Church in setting forth his Gospell as they ought to haue done For this is the chiefest thing in a bishop although the other are also necessarie and as ye say among other this the knowledge of ecclesiastical stories which ye vpbraide to the bishop as a verie poore sielie clarke in them But thus much your impudencie driueth me to saye that neither of your two Reuerend Fathers haue taken a quarter of the studious trauel in this point that the B. that now is hath done and hath shewed more fruite thereof than euer they did Scripture as they saye maketh mention of all thrée let your discrete and vpright men or any other searche and iudge who lyst But wherfore in conclusion is all this adoe forsooth the Bishop on Nicephorus wordes commendeth him for a Christian Emperour and sayth he was a spectacle and glasse for others and as one that reformed religion to the purenesse thereof this can not be a venial but a deadly and mortall sinne saith M. Stapleton Whosoeuer be the discrete iudge you are no mercifull iudge M. Stapl. there is no pardon with you but present death I see well I woulde at least ye were an vpright iudge to iudge vprightly of the matter Ye haue condemned
be the pastor So that this place as it maketh nothing for the power of the Priests ouer the goods and bodily things of the faithfull so it maketh much here in against them For if S. Paule in such matters of goods and bodily things rather than they should not haue a Christian iudge woulde haue them chose among themselues euen a contemptible person how much more now when the Church hath faithfull iudges and Christian Princes it ought in such controuersies to run to them for Iustice rather than to the Priests and Bishoppes that are of another calling Moreouer least any shoulde say that the Churche of Christ hath nothing to do with the businesse of this worlde he sayth expressely do ye not know that the saintes shall iudge of thys world and if the world shal be iudged by you are ye vnworthy to iudge of small things know ye not that we shall iudge the Angels how much more worldly things Behold the Apostle reasoneth from the spirituall power to the temporall on this wise To whom that which is more is lawfull to him is lawfull that which is lesse But we Christians shall iudge of the world and we shall iudge the renegate Angels and the Deuils themselues the which commeth by the spirituall power â–ª wherby we be made the sonnes of God and the coinheritors of Christ much more therefore may we exercise secular iudgements VVherby it appeareth that secular things are both inferior â—…o spirituall and are not estranged from the spirituall power but may light vnder it chiefely then when the matter is in hand of punishing or iudging those men that are the meÌ„bers of the Church of Christ. 〈◊〉 saye not Master Saunders that the Churche of Christ hath nothing to doe vvith the businesse of this world this is but your sclaunder We say that the spirituall Ministers of the Churche of Christe haue not so to do with such vvorldly businesse that they maye turquise all the vvorlde and alter the states of vvorldly kingdomes and occupie them selues about vvorldly affaires in such vvorldly dominion as you pretende they maye Whereto you abuse shamefully Saint Paules sayings He speaketh there of vvorldly matters and you applye it to all iudgementes yea to the iudging of a kingdome â–ª But you replle he saith the Saints shall iudge the worlde and the Angels vvhiche are greater thinges than kingdomes howe muche more then kingdomes that are lesser things Trowe you Master Saunders he speaketh there of such iudging the vvorlde that they should iudge like chiefe Iustiâ—… of realmes and kingdomes whether this or that Prince shall enioye them or shall be dispossessed of them No M. Saunders she speaketh of no suche thing The worlde shall be iudged in them as Chrysostome well noteth Iudicabunt non ipsi iudices c. They shal iudge â–ª not they themselues sitting in iudgemeÌ„t exacting an accouÌ„t God forbid but they shal coÌ„demne the vvorld the vvhich signifying he saith and if in you c. He saith not of you but in you As who should say the iust condemnation of these that are the vvorldlings shall shine in the saluation of you that are the Saints This therefore proueth 〈◊〉 such worldly iudgemeÌ„t as you pretend Secondly you abuse S. Paule as though in speaking of the Saints he spake onely of the spirituall Pastors wheras he speaketh in generall of the whole congregation Are Saintes and Christians only Priestes with you this is both manifest wresting of S. Paule and shamelesse arrogancie in your selues But you say the Churche hath it by the spirituall povver vvherby vve be made the sonnes of God and coinheritors of Christe We graunt you Master Saunders But doth this spirituall povver belong onely to Priestes you say it appeareth hereby vve maye exercise secular iudgementes whome meane you by this vve Master Saunders your selues that are the Priestes But S. Paule speaketh of Christian people and not of the Pastors only yea least of al of the Pastors Wherevpon saith Haimo out of Gregorie on these wordes choose him that is contemptible Secundum Gregorium c. According to Gregorie by contemptible persons vvee may vnderstande secular men hauing the knovvledge of humaine lavves and in their personages being honorable who in comparison of them that vnderstand the diuine lawes and pierce the mysteries of the holy Trinitie are contemptible and simple although they be faithful â–ª And according to this sense vvee muste reade it affirmatiuely bicause suche are to be appointed vvhiche of the Canons are called the Sonnes of the Church I sprake it to your shame bycause althoughe I commaunde it not you ought to haue done it And therefore he commaundeth such to be ordeyned bycause they that ought to serue on the altare and meditate Diuine Sermons and giue the vvorde of preaching to the people ought to estraunge themselues from secular businesse and iudgements Likewise saithe your Cardinall Hugo The glosse calleth them contemptible that are not apt to great offices in the Church as to preach and teach And this is an argument that my lord the Pope ought not to appoint Masters of Diuinitie to be Iudges of temporall things To your shame saith the glosse that those should examine earthly causes that haue gotten the vvisedome of outvvarde things But those that are enryched vvith spirituall giftes ought not to be entangled vvith earthly businesse that vvhile they be not driuen to inferior goods they may be able to attende on the higher goods Hovvebeit this must greatly be cared for that they that shine in spiritual goods forsake not vtterly the businesse of their vveake brethreÌ„ Thus your Papists theÌ„selues are of a contrarie iudgement to you M. Saunders besides all your Popes and Councels Canons that the spirituall Pastors should not be these Iudges in secular things that here Saint Paule speaks on To wrest therefore these wordes spoken of any faithfull Christian only to your Priestes to wring this sentence from the state of the Churche then being without any faithfull Magistrate to the time now when they haue many and those not choseÌ„ of theÌ„selues but ordeyned of the higher Magistrate to wrythe it from the iudgements and taking vp of their petit quarels to the deposing or setting vp of Kings or altering kingdomes is clean beyond the meaning of S. Paule an euident violence iniurie to Gods word Now vpoÌ„ this sentence thus wrested you procéed to your argumeÌ„t saying For their goodes are so muche subiecte to the ecclesiasticall povver that it is lavvfull for the Churche of priuate men to ordeine Magistrates that should iudge of secular causes and not only of ecclesiasticall But no man can passe more righte to an other than he hath himselfe Therefore the Churche vvhich hath povver to make them Iudges that vvere priuate men before hath much more it selfe ouer those secular causes receiued povver by the Ministers of God that as Aaron are called to the
graue and pithie 〈◊〉 of the right reuerende father in Christ Robert Bishop of Winchester to â—…he Libell of M. Feckenhams scruples for refusall of the othe of the Quéenes Maiesties Supremacy withall to blow out thereby to darken the clearenesse of the truth these light clowdes without moysture whereof Saint Iude prophecied I haue good Reader or euer I enter into the â—…laying of the Counterblast gathered togither by themselues as it were in a table of common places all those blastes wherewith his Counterblast is puffed vp and haue sorted them in seuerall windes and blastes whereby thou mayste knowe as it were by a chart into what coast he is alwayes caried and by what gale of winde he sayleth so shalt thou the better finde in what créeke he setteth footing whether on fast or on foggie grounde Which that it may the better appeare beholde the most or principall of those windes wherwith M. St in this his first booke and so encreasing more and more in the residue as we shall likewise sée when we come therto bluâ—…ring like an other Aeolus bloweth forth his Counterblast M. Stap â–ª chiefe common places 1 His spitefull rayling 2 His reprochfull slaunders 3 His scoffes and scornes 4 His immoderate bragging 5 His flourishing Rhetorike 6 His impertinent discourses 7 His false translations 8 His wordes of course 9 His petit quarels 10 His contradictions to himselfe and his fellowes 11 To the whiche is added his beaderoll of vntruthes with a plaine and briefe aunswere to euerie one of them The most of these his common places being such as here thou féest I thinke good reader thou wilt looke for no great aunswere vnto them it is aunswere good inough to make them stande forth and shewe themselues like proper fellowes mustring in their rankes and troupes howbeit if any perticular things shall be thought worthie the aunswering either in these common places they shall be satisfied or else more at large in the aunswere to the Counterblast it selfe nothing God willing whereby master Stapleton or any of his friendes may iustly finde themselues grieued shall be omitted The residue of these common places that are eyther vnworthie any aunswere or so much as the naming except to shewe with what spirite our student is moued shall be aunswered in the fronts and endes of these common places euen with his owne wordes in vpbrayding the same to the Bishop VVhy seest thou a moâ—…e in thy brothers eie but considerest not the beame that is in thine one eie Either how canst thou say to thy brother Brother let me pull out the moâ—…e that is in thine eie when thou seest not the beame that is in thine owne eie â–ª Thou hypocrite cast out the beame out of thine owne eie first and theâ—… shalt thou see perfitly to pull out the moaâ—… that is in thy brothers eie Master Stapletons owne obiections of rayling THat I may a little roll in your rayling Rhetorike wherein 80. 2. ye vniustly rore out c. His first common place of spitefull rayling A Pestilent ranke of most shamefull vntruthes an vnsauerie In his 1. Pref. and vaine kinde of reasoning Pag. 4. Shamefull and malicious 4. Your bastarde daughter 5. A mishapen lumpe of lewde and lose arguments ib. Most wretched and miserable handling 8. Most lying replie ibid. Dishonest and shamefull shiftes ibid. Miserable peruerting ibid. Your peruersitie 9. Your fonde foolish and hereticall paradox 11. Your owne whoredome 12. You most shamefully dissemble 12. A most captaine and notable lie 12. Most miserably wretchedly pinched pared dismeÌ„bred most shamefully contaminated depraued and deformed 12. You beare such a spitefull and malicious heart 13. Most falsly and lewdly 13. The cankred and malicious heart ye beare 13. You are false and malicious 13. A partiall writer an euident falsary 14. Ye write so Turkishly 14. Such Turkish trecherie might better haue bene borne in the lauishing language of your hoâ—…e spurred ministers 14. Blinde bayarde 14. Ye do like furious Aiax 14. Your turkish talke 15. The Turkish spirite that lurketh in you 15. Bluster and blowe fume and frette raue and rayle as lowdly as lewdly as beastly as boldely â–ª 15. Ye bluster not so boysterously c. as ye lie most lewdly 15. Ye well deserue to be sewed on an action of the case 16. Villaynously ye slaunder 16. You and your fellowes most rightly and truely are prooued Donatists 16. You are farre from a true Catholike 16. A most ridiculous wrangler 18. Freighted and stuffed with falshoodes 19. Your vntruthes do swaâ—…me and muster 19. Master Iuell ioyneth obstinacie to follie 20 Ye are at a poynt to lie 20. A false Prophete and a lying master 20. Most ignorantly ye defende the othe 21. Poysoned and cankred reproch 21. Your most slaunderous accusation 22. Your heighnous heresies 23. His seconde Preface WHat sielie shiftes and miserable escapes master Horne hath deuised to maintaine that obstinately which he once conceiued erroneously 26. Master Horne stoutly but fondly auoucheth 27. Master Hornes whole aunswere is but a vaine blast 29. Heresie scisme great and abhominable heresie 31. The replie to the Bishops Preface AN vntrue and false surmise Fol. 2. b. Tedious and infinite talke and babling 4. a. Foolish wilinesse or wilie foolishnesse 4. b. VVhat an impudent face as harde as a horne or stone haue you besides your mere follie 5. a. The first booke YOur fonde and folishe cauill 7. a. Miserable and wretched peruerting 7. a. Ye are but an vsurper and intruder 7. b. M. Poynet was but an vsurper 8. a. Ye are c. no doubt an heretike 8. b. By this your incest wretchedly prophaned and villained 8 b. M. Horne a starke schismaticke and heretike 11. a. Diuelish and spritishe 14. a. Blasphemous horrible and villainous ibid. M. Horne most maliciously ascribeth c. most wickedly surmiseth 14. b. That poysoned roote of Luther and his strumpet Kate. 15. b. The wicked tabernacle of their loytring heresies 16. a. Runnagate preachers 16. b. The gaping rauens mouths the hereticall broode 17. a. Schismaticall sermons rebellious protestants 17. a. Protestanticall rebells 19. b. This man so falsly and maliciously bloweth his horne 21. a. You being a sacramentarie 22. a. The gehennicall Church 26. a. Losely and lewdly without any regarde 33. a. Blynde fonde foolish and false starke false blindly and lewdly 33. b. The straunge proceeding of the Parliament agaynst Gods Church 33. b. Your poore wretched soule 36 a. As you without all knowledge 37. b. The dirtie dung of filthy schisme and heresie 38. b. Ye worke vnskilfully and vngodly ibid. Your great offence schisme and heresie ibid. Your hard stonie heart ibid. A loude lewde lie 38. b. Peruersitie and malice concurrant for your infidelitie 40. b. Variable diuers deceiuable and false 40. a. Topicall and pestiferous translation 40. b. False daungerous and damnable gloses 41. a. These errours and heresies 41. a. b. You and your fellowes teach false and superstitious religion many
VVorcester 36. b. 37. a An Inuectiue against heresie that it openeth the truth 37. a A comparison of the ignoraunce of thâ—… greatest learned men among the Papists in king Henryes dayes and the cleare knowledge that the Louanists haue nâ—…we 38 a. b. Master Feckenham his repentaunce for confessing the Kings title of supremacie 38. b. A biâ—… quarell at the Bishop for calling this sentence of the Booke of Wisedome In 〈◊〉 ammam non introâ—…it sapientia A sentence of the holy ghost Whervpon he concludeth a discorde in the Protestants writing 39. a. Where he should replie 39. b. 40. a To the Bishops answere he aunswereth not a worde but séeketh starting holes out of another aunswere that he threapeth on the Bishop to haue made before to chalenge him thereby with falshood as being variable in his aunsweres and so aunswering nothing runneth quite from the matter In steade of aunswere in the Bishops argument out of Deut. 13. and. 17. he runneth to a néedelesse proufe that Heresie is a very Idoll And once againe that we haue no warrant by act of Parliament for mariage of ministers for oure doctrine of the Sacrament for our wrytinges and preachings 42. a. When he should aunswere in the ensample of Iosue he is in hand with M. D. Harding and the Apologie with M. Dorman and M. Nowell quarelling for ciphers in misquoting for 〈◊〉 maâ—…er Dâ—…rmans theâ—…tes for laye mens presumption to go before Priestes for altering religion at the conuocation 46. b. Challenging the Bishop for running at randon from the marke and willing the Reader to regarde the marke he setteth vp of purpose ix false markes nothing nere the issue in question betwene the Bishop and M. Feck and vnder pretence of those nine markes runneth himselfe at randon into aboue xix impertinent matters of the Iewes acknowledging one high Priest of altering religion of the auncientnesse of Poperie 53. b. of the Priests othe on their Priesthood of abandoning the Pope and general councels of the authoritie of the Scriptures of the determining heresies by them of foraigne authoritie of bestowing ecclesiastical liuings Of Bishops letters patents of restraining their iurisdiction of inhibiting from preaching of payment of tenthes and first fruites of the priuilege of the heathen priestes of Egypt of writing the Queenes title of Priestes receiuing the othe of exempting the nobilitie of a woman Prince and in the ende of all this of Robin Hood and little Iohn and bicause he shooteth at these markes he sayth he hath shot awrie like a blinde man. 54. a. b. 55. a. Where he shoulde directly aunswere to that wherewith master Feckenham is by the Bishop charged for refusing all the prooues of the olde Testament to play the part of a Donatist Master Stapleton snatcheth herevpon occasion to runne out from his matter and to gather togither first a great rabble partly of heresies partly of no heresies to charge vs withall and then trauayleth to heape vp a number of poynts labouring thereby to proue the Protestants to be Donatists medling by this occasion with euery matter that he thought he might enlarge his booke withall with sectes and diuisions with bragging of multitudes with viciousnesse of life of tying the Church to this or that place of corrupting the fathers of visions and myracles of vaunting of Councels of a generall Apostacie of beginning and continuance of doctrine and Bishops of complayning of good Princes and praysing of ill of defacing the Sacraments and incredible crueltie of the Emperours lawes and the holye Gospels of murthering others and themselues of false martyrs all which sauing his long discourse of thrée or foure pages agaynst master Foxes booke which I remitte to him to be answered is aunswered for his importunitie sake though much of it be more fullie aunswered by others and also quite extrauagant from the matter in hande 57. 58. 59. 60. 61. 62. Fol. 65. He chalengeth vs to be blasphemers he is in hande with contempt of the number of the sacraments with prouinciall and generall Councels with another fling at M. Foxes booke of Martyrs about the articles of Sir Thomas Hitton priest 〈◊〉 Sir Iohn Oldcastle Knight the Lorde of Cobham for putting of heretikes to death for compelling to receyue the fayth for manslaughter 66. a. b. Once againe he is in hande with his olde quarell of Images Idols and the Crosse. 68. b. Where he should aunswere to the Bishops allegations out of Nicephorus he letteth them all alone and medleth with other matters nothing to the purpose as with Michael Paleologus Emperour of Greece with thalenging the Grecians for heresies with the heresie of the holy ghost to proceede onely from the father and not from the sonne with the Councell at Lions with the accordment betwene the Grecians and the Latine Church with their reuolt from the same with the spite of the Greeke Bishops From thence he runneth to other matters rayling on the Authour of the Homelie agaynst Idolatrie for calling Michael â–ª Theodorus about his depriuing and funerals that the question of Images was not mooued at the Councell of Lions of the setting vp and continuance of Images in the Greeke Church From hence he runneth to quarelling about the names of Valence and Valentinian and of his and Theodosius his lawe agaynst the picture of the Crosse. Against Bishop Iewel for citing it out of Crinitus simplie as the same Crinitus doth Hereon he entreth into a generall inuectiue agaynst the reading of the Homelies nowe â—…et forth and falleth in praysing of the Homelies in the Popish Church 76. b. 77. a. In steade of aunswering to the Bishops argument out of Saint Paule and Chrysostomes allegation thereon he is in hande againe with master Foxe for setting forth the doyngs of Doctour VVesalian with the Bishop to be but a poore Clearke with the aduauncing of Bishop VVhite and Bishop Gardiner with chalenging the Bishop to be of the Grecians opinion agaynst the proceeding of the holye Ghost from the father and the sonne with the decaye of the Empyre of Greece with a comparison betwéene the decay of Hierusalem besieged at Easter by the Romaynes and the Captiuitie of Constantinople besieged at VVhitsontide by the Turkes with the poynting of Gods â—…ynger wyth the Realmes of Fraunce Scotlande Germanie with the vaunting of his owne plaine and true going to woorke with Michaell and Andronicus once againe and none of all these things eyther aunswering the Bishop or perteyning to the question Last of al where he taketh on him to set downe the state of the question he setteth vp many newe questions neyther in hand betwéene the Bishop and master Feckenham nor any whit defended by vs but méere slaunders of the Papistes of the Princes preaching the woorde of God ministring the Sacraments binding and losing c. Thus handsomely hath he kept himselfe close to the matter and yet euer he crieth haue an eye to the marke and willeth vs still to call for the question and yet himselfe hath thus
the spirituall Kingdome fol. 29. b. 30. a. The seruice of the Prince is common as wel to the heathen as Christian gouernment 29. b. Christian Princes are faythfull aduocates in ayding and assisting the spirituall power 30. a. which the heathen are not fol. 30. b. He flatly confesseth that M. Feck helped to spoyle Queene Marie of a principall part of hir royall power right and dignitie in spoyling hir of this supremacie thought sayth he he so did but not as an vnfaythfull subiect But so to spoyle hiâ—… â–ª and not therein to be an vnfaythfull subiect are flatte contradictorie Againe he sayth he did it as a repentant Catholike but to spoyle any bodie of their right and to do it repentantly are also flat contradictorie ibid. Againe he sayth afterward it was no part at all of hiâ—… royall power but to confesse first that he spoyled hir of a principall part of hir royall power and after to say it was no part of hir royall power are likewise contradictorie As also to say he spoyled hir and yet it was no part belonging to that of which he spoyled 〈◊〉 What are all these but an heape of wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 contradictions And all this he vttereth within lesse than fortie wordes togither Fol. 40. b TheÌ„ Bishop 〈◊〉 that the Prince shall haue by him the lawe of God 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…ly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that the 〈◊〉 sâ—…yth not so â–ª 〈◊〉 yet within fire lynes before he confesseth that â—…he 〈◊〉 â—…yeth so and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of infidelitie for leauing out woordes that wente immediately before the Texte that the Bishop alleaged And so while hee stryueth to chalenge the Bishop he cleareth the Bishop and ouerth 〈◊〉 himselfe Againe in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 On the one side of the leafe he graunteth freely that by the. 13. of Deuterenomie Princes may punishe teachers of false and superstitious religion and Idolatrie On 〈◊〉 â—…ther 〈◊〉 of the leafe he eateth his free graunt 〈◊〉 and sayth that in all 〈◊〉 chapter or in all that booke â–ª there is no 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…ounde cares not what Where the Bishop allengeth the 〈◊〉 of â—…osue M. St. 〈◊〉 the ensample bicause sayth he Iosue did sacrifice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 himselfe 46. b. that Princes cannot now do And yet after fol. 49. speaking of Iosue he confesseth that he did them not him selfe but by appoynting them to bee done by the priestes ministerie He chalengeth the Bishop for not prouing his matters by any testimonies of the newe Testament after he hath handled the olde And by and by he confesseth that he alleageth two testimonies of the newe Testament to proue his matters by 59. a. He confesseth that master Feckenham refused of settâ—… purpose like â—… wise man the testimonies of the olde Testament And yet all his long treatise of eight leanes togither in the â–ª â—…6 Chapter is chiefly to this purpose to proue that he refuseth them not 62. a. He confesseth that he omitted them bicause they made agaynst him and yet he sayth he includeth them and affirmeth them as all making with him ibid. Fol. 65. a. b. He graunteth by Saint Augustines wordes that Princes may make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes Religion And in the next side he denieth Saint Augustines wordes to enforce any thing else but lawes to punishe Heretikes which is no Ecclesiasticall matter at all Fol. 66. a. He sayth we denie that Princes may punish Heretikes by death And 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â–ª he sayth we hold with Caluin that sayth Princes may â–ª pot â–ª Heretikes vnto death When the Bishop presseth him with the ensamples of Moses 〈◊〉 Dauid 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 denieth as doth master Dorman that the ensamples of the old are figures of the new Testament and yet in the â–ª 17. Chapter he graunteth that all the examples 〈◊〉 â–ª 〈◊〉 that the 〈◊〉 of the olde Testament herein be figures of the newe fol. 68. â—… He confesseth there is some regiment that Princes may take vpon them in causes ecclesiasticall And in the next side he 〈◊〉 the Princes regiment to â—…e but an ouer â—…r in ciuill matters But forthwith againe contrarie to this he graunteth the Prince may haue the procurations and executions of Church matters fol. 68. â—… And thus in Docke out Nettie he so graunteth and denieth that there is no holde of his worde 68. a. b. He graunteth Christ destroyed not the rule of Princes in Church causes figured in the olde lawe and that Christs sentence giue to Caesar that that is Caesars confirmeth the figure of Princes rule in Church causes in the olde lawe And yet streightway he sayth it maketh nothing for it 69. a. He sayth this sentence giue vnto Cesar that belongeth vnto Cesar destroyeth not the figure where the subiects in the olde lawe were bounde to giue all duties to their Princes that belonged vnto them And yet anon after by this sentence sayth he men be not bounde to pay any thing yea not so much as tribute to their Princes 70. a. And so this sentence confirmeth not but loâ—…eth and destroyeth the figure by the which subiects were bounde before to their Princes He sayth that this sentence of Christ determineth something And by and by he sayth it determineth nothing Againe he sayth it determineth paying tribute onely And yet he sayd before it determined not that neither He sayde also before that this sentence onely licensed that we might pay tribute if we woulde but we ought not And yet after he sayth Christ willed that to be giuen to Caesar that is his which is â—…oth a determination and commaundement also 70. a. He sayth the Bishops admonition hereon is without anie cause or grounde And anon he sayth it serueth him and his brethren for many and necessarie purposes fol. 70. a. He graunteth that Princes haue authoritie both to further the obseruation and to punishe the breach aswell in the first table as in the seconde that is aswell in such actions as concerne our dutie to God him selfe as in the dutie of one man to another 71. b. But in the next side he flatly denieth this againe saying these are the workes of the first table the punishing correcting or iudging of these appertaine nothing to the authoritie of the Prince or to anye hys lawes 72. a. He sayth we make the Princes supreme gouernours without any limitation And yet withall he alleageth Master Nowell to say it is not without limitation but that Godly ministers may iudge of the synceritie of doctrine according to Gods worde fol. 73. a. As also he shewed in the diuision before howe the Bishop limitted the Princes gouernment by the boundes of the worde of God. He sayeth that Saint Paule 1. Tim. 2. speaketh there of no authoritie at all in Princes Where the wordes are euident for all those that bee put in authoritie And yet himselfe by and by sayth hee speaketh of theyr gouernment And anon after will ye knowe sayth he whie the Apostles both Saint
Peter and Saint Paule so earnestly taught at that time obedience to Princes But what obedience coulde they require in subiectes if they comprehended not with all authoritie in Princes fol. 75. b. Aunswere these contradictions with his owne wordes I am here in the beginning put to the knowledge by the varietie of your aunsweres that they cannot be both true but if the one be true the other must be false fol. 40. a. By your contradictions ye shewe the vnstablenesse of your owne Iudgement 1. Pres. pag. 19. His ninth common place of petit quarels at Grammer and other trifles to prolong his booke thereby His ovvne obiection of the same WHo seeth not nowe that all this was but a quarell picked without desert and you master Stapletonn to haue shewed yourselfe amost ridiculous wrangler But Gods name be blessed the dealing of Catholike wryters is so vpright that suche small occasions must bee piked and vppon suche trifles your Rhetorike must bee bestowed else agaynst their dealing ye haue nothing to say 1. Preface pag. 18. IN his first Preface where he giueth a briefe antedate of all those things that he is â—…ust offended withall he maketh this a verie heynous faulte that the Bishoppe called Conuenâ—…t It ought to bee for It is meete or conuenient to bee â–ª 1. Pref. Pag. 4. As who saye if a thing bée meete and conuenient it ought not to bee or if it ought to be it is not meete and conuenient to bee But if Oportet muste néedes alwayes signifie it ought to bee then ought your Bishops if they bée Bishops to bée maryed For Saint Paule sayth not Conuenit but Oportet Episcopuâ—… esse vniâ—… vxâ—…r is viruâ—… A Bishop ought to be the husbande of one wife In the same place he maketh a sorer matter aboute this worde recenâ—…endam to reherse which worde the Bishoppe went not aboute to interprete in that place as the letter sheweth but onelye to tell the sentence and intente of their doyng and wherefore did the Councell present their doynges to bée read or rehearsed before the Emperour but that he might examine and confyrme the same Besides that they them selues beséeche him to ratifie and confirme them which he could not well doe hauing not examined and perused them ibid. Likewise about irrogare priuilegia that eyther by escape of the Printer as many such escapes in any booke may hap or by the ouersight of the writer of the Printers copie was printed to take away for he gaue of which escape Lord what a wonderfull triumphant outcrie he maketh also in his Counterblast while the materiall purpose is all one agaynst him whether the Prince made priuileges or abrogated priuileges and tooke them from the Clergie For if his taking away were lawfull his authoritie remayned equall in both except ye will say â–ª Princes haue authoritie to make priuileges for the Clergie giue or make for them what and how much they will but they that haue learned holdefast the first point of hawking will not suffer them by the same authoritie to take any away agâ—…ine for that is against their profite But the lawe sayth contrary the same authoritie that may make the same authoritie may vndâ—…e and take away againe ibidem But lesse maruaile is it that he quarelleth about the former wordes that cauilleth about the Englishing of quauiâ—… causa any cause which must be sayth he euery cause calling this interpreting foule shiftes neuerthelesse of much importance to call quauis any yet himself euen in the next lease not of quauis qualibet or quacunque whereon he descanteth Grammarian like but euen of nothing can make Any a foule shift and yet not of any other importance at all than to shewe that any or all these causes of his brablings are in conclusion of no importance at all But admitting as he would haue it the Kings and the Councels decrée agaynst the carying of causes out of the Realme to be pleaded at the Court of Rome should signifie not any but eueâ—…y cause then coulde not the penaltie of the breach thereof extend to any that had tryed excéeding many causes at Rome and dayly did for all this decrée vnlesse it had â—…ene proued he had there tried euerie cause and so the decrée it selfe had bene of nonâ—… importance at all whereat so heynous a matter is made and yet the worde in that place admitteth so well none other interpretation ibid. The like quarell he piketh aboute supremuâ—… gâ—…bernator supreme gouernour in the Queeneâ—… Maiesties title to the othe administred at Oxenfordâ—… of the which othe he sayth A scholler might make an honest refusall were it nothing but for false Latine Which rule of his if it holde then many of their poâ—…ishe ceremonies their Latine seruice their Masse yea euen their consecration might honestly he refused were it but for false Latine when their ignoraunt Priestes did pronounce corpus 〈◊〉 c. in nomina patria filia spirita sancta c. 〈◊〉 for sumâ—…simus or such like wordes about the which your best scholemen make somewhat more 〈◊〉 standing vpon the intentioâ—…s and not so much vpon the sillables that euen for the false construction of sir Iohn lackâ—… Latine that patreth Latine like a Parat they might honestly refuse the same but to saue the honestie of theyr priests and their ignoraunt escapes they haue a contrarie glosse to your rule quia error sillabae non nocet the error of a sillable hurteth not althoughe they that vsed this phrase knewe as well howe to set the Substantiâ—…e and the Adiectiue togither as master Stapleton I dare say and were it so as he sayth might take the phrase vsually receyued not respecting the gender so much as the selfe thing and power As we vse in Englishâ—… to say without quarelling thereat the Quéenes Royall or regall estate though shee by hir seâ—…e be Queene and by Grammer shoulde say reginall estate likewise we call hir gouernour defender and your selfe call hir often Prince not Princesse all these and suche like wordes or phrases setting aside the exacting of Grammer rules in respect of hir kingly power the lawyers say they may vse this licence of speach to whome I remitte you and to other your Canonists scholemen and Historiographers that haue vsed the same or like with no reproche or quarell piked thereat And if now the Quéenes Maiesties supremacie must néedes be renouÌ„ced for this phrase bicause by the censure of our new Aristarchus it is not so Grammerlike then must your Pope himselfe léese his vsurped supremacie so oft as it often falleth out he is no Grammarian at all ibidem Likewise he maketh a quarell about these wordes supreme head in the title of King Henrie and King Edwarde and the wordes of the title vsed nowe supreme gouernour where all men knowe that the sense is all one but that this title more plainly expresseth the matter to preuent such ianglers Yea but sayth he there is a certaine addition of greatest
Apostles Peter and Paule doe playnely declare The. 57. vntruthe The Apostles neuer declared any such matter So saye you in déede â—… Stapleton but the Bishops proofes out of Chrisostome and sainct Augustine do playnly declare they did The. 58. vntruth Of misunderstanding sainct Augustine bicause besides this bederoll he also chargeth the Bishop therewith at large in the Counterblast it is answered seuerally in the answere of the. 18. chapter Not meaning only the transgressors of the seconde table in teÌ„porall matters but also agaynst the offendours of the first table in spirituall or ecclesiasticall causes or matters The. 59. vntruthe Sainct Augustine meaneth not to teach suche gouernement of Princes in ecclesiasticall matters as you teache but onely to punishe Heretikes and by the same to mayntayne the Catholike fayth decreed by the Clergie not by the ciuill Magistrate Belike ye can tell better what sainct Augustine meant than be could him selfe But S. Augustine is playne he néedeth no suche interpreter Remember your owne note maledicta glossa quae corrumpit textum Cursed be that glose that corrupteth the text S. Aug. interpreting the mynd of the Apostle to be that the authoritie power of Princes hath to deale in ecclesiastical causes so wel as in teÌ„poral The. 60. vntruth Saint Augustine neuer wrote so Ye shoulde haue tolde out the sentence of S. Augustine that the B. citeth which fully proueth it and then haue improued it as an vntruth if ye coulde whiche although ye do not yet in the margine of that sentence ye crye out lustily and say where is there in all this master Horne that the Princes haue to deale in ecclesiastical causes so well as in temporall For sooth master Stapleton euen here at your hand in this present sentence wherein S. Augustine proueth and your selfe also graunt so muche that the Princes authoritie punishethe so well abuses in eccl. causes and faultes againste religion as it doth ciuill or temporall causes but it punisheth all external faultes and abuses in al ciuil and temporal causes that by his supreme authoritie therein not as an others executioner Ergo it punisheth al external abuses and faults in all ecclesiasticall causes and religion and that by his supreme authoritie therein and not as the clergies executioner Eusebius c. vnderstanding the ministerie of the ciuill Magistrate to be about Gods religion and eccle causes so well as temporall The. 61. vntruth Eusebius neuer vnderstoode any such ministerie of the ciuill Magistrate In what things Eusebius vnderstoode the ciuil Magistrats ministerie to consist the B. set downe Eusebius his owne wordes to proue that he vnderstood it so you say he neuer vnderstoode it so but ye set downe neuer a worde neyther here nor in your Counterblaste to proue the contrarie which tyll ye shall be able to do the Byshoppes vnderstanding of Eusebius by his owne wordes is no vntruthe Eusebius saythe that in preaching by hys decrees true godlynesse in setting foorthe the religion of the moste holy lawe and the most blessed faythe the Princes ministerie consisteth in these things so wel as any other or before al other as his best ministerie But these things are not ciuill matters but spirituall and ecclesiasticall Ergo his ministerie by Eusebius vnderstanding consisteth so well in ecclesiasticall or spirituall matters as ciuill or temporall This moste Christian Emperoure did rightly consider as he hadde bene truely taughte of the moste Christian Byshoppes of that tyme that as the Princes haue in charge the mynisterie and gouernement in all manner causes eyther temporall or spirituall The. 62. vntruth impudent and shamelesse concluded but no whit proued And in his Counterblast I say it is a starke and most impudent lye that ye say without any profe Constantine was taught of the Byshoppes that Princes haue the gouernement in all manner causes eyther temporall or spirituall ye conclude after your manner facingly and desperately vvithout any proufe or halfe proufe in the worlde Here are wonderfull boysterous wordes Master Stapleton but greate boast and small roaste as they say For all this hyghe chalenge standeth on I saye and so in déede it appéereth to be your saying but hadde it not béene your saying Master Stapleton I woulde haue thought it hadde béene some cotqueanes cryaleyson and I woulde haue answered a wispe a wispe for setting aside your foule language what vntruthe is here concluded or what concluded that is not proued The Prince hath the setting foorthe of true religion of Gods moste holy lawe and the moste blessed faythe but these thinges are not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and spirituall the Prince hath to puâ—…te awaye and ouerthrowe all euilles that presse the vvoorlde but none presse the worlde more daungerously than superstition Idolatrie erroures heresies scismes sectes and false religion all whiche are no ciuill but ecclesiasticall and spirituall matters The Prince dothe these thinges not as an executioner of an others ministerie but all the dooing hereof is the ministery properly beloÌ„ging to his owne office yea it is his best ministerie Ergo he dothe all these thinges with as muche or more full and proper authoritie of his office â–ª as he dothe any other ciuill thing But his ministerie in ciuill things is by his supreme authoritie vnder God therin whose minister S. Paule calleth him This is the Bishops conclusion moste playne and true all your blackemouthed Rhethorike to the contrarie notwithstanding For this cause also Nicephorus c. compareth Emanuell Paleologus the Emperoure to Constantine For this cause the. 63. vntruthe as shall appeare There is no doubt some great cause that moued you M. Stapleton to put this in your bederoll of vntruthes that the Bishop sayd for this cause And if you were asked for what cause ye doe so it séemeth it would be harde for you to render any and therefore ye take a wise and a short way to tell vs it shall appeare But here ye shewe none nor any at all here appeareth And where it shoulde appeare there appeareth none also except this be sufficient reason onely to denie it and say it is no cause at all For these wordes onely appeare there VVhere ye say for this cause also c. this is no cause at all but is vntrue as of the other Emperour Constantine and muche more vntrue as ye shall good reader straight way vnderstande What cause I pray you is here alleaged and yet this is all that ye say vnto it sauing that as ye sayde before it shoulde appeare referring vs there hither here ye saye as the reader shall straightway vnderstande it And yet neyther straight way nor crooked way ye speake one worde more of the matter but goe about the bushe medling with other matters and not with the truthe or vntruthe hereof any more And so it appeareth nusquam and the reader shall vnderstande it nunquam Neyther is it any maruell if ye can not lette the reader to
vnderstande it for I thinke ye vnderstoode not the Byshops wordes your selfe which if ye had done ye wold neuer haue quoted it for an vnâ—…th for shame Ye knowe the Byshop before hauing for the vnderstanding of saint Paules wordes for the Princes ministerie alleaged the ensample of Constantine to shewe that his best ministerie consisteth in his carefull zeale direction of Gods glorie and truth and other matters of religion wherein Eusebius commendeth him being a famous ecclestastical writer and allowed amongst you sythe also Nycephorus another your late famous ecclesiasticall writer coÌ„parâ—…th moste expresly herein the Emperour of his time to Constantine the great what vntruth hath the Byshop committed to say For this cause Nycephorus compareth the one to the other for that he did so neerely imitate his duetifulnesse in ruling procuring and reforming religion to the purenesse thereof If Nycephorus haue not thus in these poynts compared them then a Gods name blame the Byshop that sayde for this cause alâ—…o Nicephorus c. but if Nicephorus haue so done then is the Bishop cleâ—…red of this vntruâ—… that said â—…e did so And if ye haue any quarrel to picke go picke it against Nicephorus that so did and not againste the Byshop that only sayde he did so Nowe whither Nicephorus haue done as the Byshop sayde 〈◊〉 did or no let the reader be vâ—…per The words of Nicephorus are long notwithstanding I will set downe some of them writing to the Emperoure he sayth thus Verily one shall suffice me as I mighte â—…aye for all with whome also perchaunce for that kinred and likelyhood whiche is betweene you and him you will gladly suffer your selfe to be compared and is this any other than that ConstaÌ„tine the great valoure and name among all men Constantine whose memorie ought to be as it were a certaine sprite in all menne VVho helped â—…s in oure moste necessitie and so mightely Constantine the greate in suche artes as belong to an Emperour in prudence incomparable but in feruencie towardes God and in great actes atchieued and contentions susteyned for the true godlynesse he is aboue all euen as the Sun is shining aboue the starres And art not thou O most excellent Prince the verie certain image of him here 〈◊〉 noteth in the margent coÌ„paratur c. The Emperor is coÌ„pared to Constantin the great and is conferred with him verily eueÌ„ so doth the glasse render the right shape of the Image as thou expressest the diuine shewe of his mynde and glisterest again being very like vnto him none otherwise than euen the naturall sonne doth represent his father and although I know well thou wilt disalowe my boldnesse which art chiefly wont to auoyde and beware of such prayses notwithstanding I will not doubte to saye this thing whiche I beeseech thee â—…o suffer me and consider my reason sith I chiefly knowe that thou art the sonne of God by grace and the Lords anointed aboue the reste that thou art the Image of him in all poyntes alyke which manifestly hast obtained the very godly form of him and the force and impression eyther of his liuing or imperial substance c. And so he runneth into particular poyntes wherin he compareth them togâ—…ther Is not all this enough master Sta. to proue the Bishops saying true for this cauâ—…e alâ—…o Nicephorus â–ª c. compareth these two Emperours togither but you 〈◊〉 this and shewing no cause in the world why ye chalenge the Bishop therefore runne to an other quarell about the Emperours name bycause the B. sayde as followeth For this cause also Nicephorus in his Preface before his ecclesiasticall hystorie dothe compare Emanuell Paleologus the Emperoure to Constantine The. 64. vntruth In putting Emanuel for Andronicus Ye are aunswered to this at large in the replye to your Counterblasting theron What soeuer his name were as it is called in question so the Byshop is cleared thereof following your owne principall auâ—…ors doctors that translâ—…ting and setting out this story named him euen as the 〈◊〉 â—…oth Emanuel Paleologus not once nâ—…r twice neyther â—…s the blinde man castes his â—…affe but as they say theÌ„selues on good considerations among them therevnâ—…o And so rehearsetâ—… his noble vertues The. 65. vntruth For this Emperour wâ—… a starke heretike So say you M. Stapleton and so ye reuile him in your Counterblaste for a wretched heretike also and a wicked dooer But your ecclesiasticall writer Nicephorus saith not so of him he reciteth 〈◊〉 many vertue â–ª and also 〈◊〉 and excellent vertues of this Emperour If he were not suche a one or had not such vâ—…rtues as Nicephorus rehearâ—…eth him to haue what is that to the Byshop who only sayth Nicephorus reciteth his noble vertues And to proue this true the whole preface of Nicephorus is manifest beeing for the most part nothing but the Princes coÌ„mendation of such noble vertues as Nicephorus sheweth he was endewed withall He calleth him principâ—…n omniuÌ„ Christi aâ—…antissimo atque humanissimo qui prorsus omnes virtutes complexus nihil rerum pulcâ—…errimarum excellentissimaâ—…um pretermisisti The Emperor most louing of Christ and most â—…teous who hauing throughly aâ—…tained all vertues haste let slip nothing that is moâ—…e faire and excellent It were tedious to râ—…cite al or the quarter of that he citeth in the prayse of this Emperours vertues The preface throughout is manyfest the Byshops allegations that ye can not denie the comparison aforesaide betweene him and Constantine do declare yea your self confesse that Nicephorus doth highly aduance and exâ—… this Emperour But as Nicephorus saith if wée may beléeue him on his credite beeing called of all your side scriptor per onmia verè catholicus a verye catholike writer in all poynts he flattreth him not nor forgeth but speaketh the truth in praysing of him al which dothe sufficiently acquite the Byshoppe for saying that Nicephorus rehearâ—…eth his noble vertues The Princes supremacie in repairing religion decayed The. 66. vntruth Fonde and foolishe as shall appeare This is onely a marginal note that the Bishop prâ—…fireth to all the allegations that he citeth out of Nicephorus to any one sentence of which allegations M. Stapleton answereth nothing But thus iustleth at the marginall note and sendeth vs to his Counterblaste thereon where it shall appeare how vntrue howe fonde and foolishe it is Which the reader shall iudge when he hath read his Counterblaste the answere thereto That by their rule ministerie and seruice not onely peace and tranquillitie but also godlynesse and religion should be furdered and continued amongst men The. 67. vntruth No such wordes in S. Paule Ye doe the Byshoppe manifest iniury M. Stapleton neyther haue ye any vauntage to pretende any of your former quarels at the printe of the letters it is euident the Byshop setteth not down those words as the bare words of the tâ—…rt of S. Paule whiche he cited the line before adverbum
and with diffinct letter which he doth not here but Paraphrastically expoundeth the texte Wherein if he doe wreste the meaning of saint Paule ye shoulde hardly note that for an vntruthe â–ª S. Paule there nameth not religion that is true but that this worde godlynesse which saint Paule nameth comprehendeth not religion as the Byshop saythe that is your owne vntruthe But this matter is debated more at large in the answere to your Counterblast chap. 18. diuis â–ª 22. where is shewed bothe by the Fathers and by your owne chiefe writers that sainte Paule by this word godlynesse meant true religion Here ye set another blasing starre vpon these words that the Byshop sayth This woulde be noted with good aduisement that Sainte Paule himselfe sheweth playnely prosperitie amongste Gods people and true religion to be the benefites and fruites in generall that by Gods ordinance springeth from the rule and gouernement of Kings and Magistrats vnto the weale of the people This would be noted say you howe ye racke saint Paule he nameth not religion at all he dothe not attribute religion to the rule and gouernment of the ciuill Magistrat but peace and tranquillitie only in godlynesse Ye durst not note this for an vntruth M. Stapleton but for a racking or wresting althoughe this is but your peeuish difference If he racke saint Paules meaning he telleth an vntruth of saint Paule although this dothe cleare the B. of racking also that ye durste not playnely note and score it vp for an vntruth yet as the B. saying is most true so it nothing swarueth from the meaning of sainte Paule For aâ—… the B. proueth by Chrysostome that by this worde godlynesse is meant religion and the inwarde peace of the mynde and conscience and not only the outward peace of the body So Saint Paule maketh these to bee the benefites fruites and endes that by Gods ordinaunce wee receyue from the rule and gouernement of kings and magistrates in whiche saying S. Paule is not racked but it is you M. Stapleton that racke Saint Paule â–ª for he sayth not tranquillitie and peace only in godlinesse yâ—… may put your only in your pursse Saint Paule sayth in godlinesse and purenesse The whiche knot and fastening togither of religion and prosperitie incoÌ„mon weales the most Christian and godly Emperours Theodosius Ualentinianus did wisely foresee The. 68. vntruthe They sawe no suche confounding of the two functions spirituall and temporall as you imagine This vntruth is directed against the Byshops imagination ye go verie neare the B. M. Stapleton that where hée sayth no suche wordes as you chalenge ye will créepe into his heart and fetche iâ—… from thence ye haue a goodeye sighte that can see what the B. imagineth But wisdome wil think this to bée a fonde toy of your own idle imagination for the Byshops words import no such confusion as ye talke of hée telleth howe godlynesse and prosperiâ—…e are lincked togither in common weales so that the one cannot be well without the other that the Prince is the knitting togither of both these and this he saythe the Emperours sawe and that they sawâ—… it he bringeth good proufe theire own manifest words set downe at large eyther proue this an vntruth M. Sta. or else the B. hath made nene it is but your vntrue sclaunder fonde imagination I haue proued c. That such like gouernment in Churche causes as the Queenes Maiestie taketh vpon hir dothe of duetie belong vnto ciuill magistrates The. 69. vntruth Such like gouernement you haue not nor euer shall be able to proue The B. saith that in this first booke he hath hitherto proued it by the scriptures the Doctours and some Emperoures This you denie that he hath done and set him a long day to proue it Nowe the truth or vntruth of this the reader must hang in suspence til be haue read the prâ—…s ouer what they bee and then in the name of God lette himiudge whether the vntruthe lyghte on the Byshoppe or on Master Stapleton In the meane season â—…ytherto the Reader maye haue a taste what shame is in this impudent mannes â—…ace what truthe in his cause and what folly in hâ—…s heade thus to the wide worlde to score and sette out suche thinges for vntruthes as beeing neuer so little rypped vp are moste apparante truthes and to make suche a tryumphante gambolde and pyping vp of a round as hee doth thereon But leâ—…te hym daunce his â—…yll and nicke vp still on the score in the ende hée will runne so farre in the lashe that no man will credite a worde of his mouthe MeÌ„daci non crâ—…ditur ne iurato quidem A lyer is not beleeued no thoughe he svveare ⧠To Master Stapletons first Preface OR euer Master Stap â–ª enter into his counterblast he prefixeth two Prefaces the first to the B. the second to the Reader The first bicause it is only a packet trussed vp of all such accusations as he layeth to the Bishops charge through out his whole counterblast and so is to be aunswered in their proper places I minde not therefore to follow Master Stapletons vaine that saith Decies repeâ—…ta placebunt to spende the time and trouble the Reader more than néedes in answering to them here that are to be answered in their places seuerally and are already many of them noted before in his Common places The effect and conclusion of this preface in the ende is this That the Bishop must néedes make a full reioynder A full reioynder I say saith he and perfect to all and euery parte of this reply and put in Master Stapletonâ—… whole answere not omitting any one line or sentence either of the text or of the margine or els the truth is not on the Bishops side or els he waÌ„teth learnyng or els he buildeth on no good fundation nor the cause he groundeth on is sure or els all men vvill laugh him to scorne for his faire piece of vvorke so shamefully broken of or els M. Feckenhams scruples are most learned and inuincible reasons or els the othe can not be takeÌ„ with out manifest periurie or els Master Horne must retract his most haighnouse heresies or els which I should haue set before all that the B. hath saide is but vvoordes of course to saue his poore honestie and but waltham talke or els as he obiecteth foolishnesse to the B. so M. Stapleton may proue as wise as walthams calfe and thus as he saith to the B. for this time I take my leaue of you Vale resipisce so may I for this your first Preface take my leaue of you Master Stapleton Uale sape ⧠To Master Stapletons seconde Preface THe seconde Preface is directed to the Reader and is coÌ„triued in thrée partes The first sheweth the reasons why he tooke vppon him to answere the Bishop The second how by what order he procéedeth in his answere The thirde is an earnest admonition
you say for the which I referre me to all autentike and auncient recordes as well of Englande as of other nations Ye say well herein master Stapleton and we take your offer And fiâ—…st let vs sée for other Nations Did Iames euen the first Bishop of Hierusalem acknowledge the supremacie of the Sea of Rome Was he confirmed by the same Sea when as yet the same Sea was not to be acknowledged or be confirmed by If as you say the B. can be no prelate of the Gaâ—…ter being no prelate at all how could that Sea be acknowledged that was not at all Moreouer do ye thinke that Timothie Bishoppe of Ephesus or Titus of Crâ—…ta and all other Bishoppes of Asia or Grece that Sainte Paule made acknowledged the supremacie of the Sea of Rome or were confirmed by the same when Sainte Paule that ordeyned them sayeth he receyued his authoritie of no man And when he came to Rome he neyther came to haue his Bishops confirmed of the Sea of Rome nor he founde anye Sea there nor sought Peter for the saide purpose else where nor thought himselfe any whitte inferiour to him much lesse thought he of any suche supremacie eyther of his Sea or him Nowe if the first and originall of all those Bishoprikes Eastwarde neyther acknovvledged anye supremacie of that Sea nor were confirmed by the same What plea can you make of theyr succession If they swarued from theyr predecessours and first founders your selfe confesse it is no good succession but a newe sewte and race And if it be good and lawfull succession that the Bishops of the East Churches succeded by then neyther acknowledged they anye supremacie of the Sea of Rome nor were confirmed by the same euen which not onelye the true autentyke and auncient recordes doe testifie howe they agréed although in sayth yet nothing lyke in disciplines rytes and orders to whiche the Romaine Sea doth sweare all those Bishoppes that are confyrmed by it and acknowledge obedience therevnto But also euen to this daye thoughe one or two Bishoppes nowe and then of late time for verye necessitie and hope of reliefe haue runne to the Sea of Rome yet by theyr ordinarie and customable succession euen from the Apostles times so long as they continued Christian neuer acknowledged they the supremacie of the Sea of Rome nor were confirmed by the same The like recordes for the Churches southward remaine not only of their beginnings from the other Apostles not from the Sea of Rome but also of their continuance howe they woulde not admitte anye supremacie of the same Sea ouer them and what contention they had thereabout As for their confirmations that they had them not from the sea of Rome but euen from the Emperour yea the Bishop of Rome himselfe and other from their princes the practise when we come thereto shall shewe And as east warde and southwarde so may we like wise reason of the Church westward where S. Paule after he had bene two yeare at Rome by the space of tenne yeares trauelled in Italie Spaine and Fraunce as witnesse Eusebius Epiphanius Ierome Euthalius Diaconus Nicephorus Beda Platina yea Frier Perionius that wrote the other daye de vitâ—…s Apostolorum that in Langue doâ—… he made a Bishoppe at Narbona who trauelled after with him in Spaine And if in all that space as it is most likely he made other Bishops shall we suppose they were not full Bishops till they had their Bulles from the Sea of Rome And if the first B. did not so your reason of succession fayleth So that your maior is false concerning other Nations Now let vs briefly sée howe it likewise fayles for England And as you say Namely in the foresayde Sea of VVinchester that from the first grafting and planting of the fayth in England there was not no not one in that Sea that did not acknowledge the supremacie of the Sea of Rome and was not confirmed by the same vntill the late time of master Poynet who otherwise also was but an vsurper the true Bishop then liuing by no lawful or ecclesiasticall order remoued or depriued The lawfull order and sufficient causes of B. Gardeners depriuation is extant and sette out in the booke of Monumentes Howe true a Bishop as ye call him he was if the acknowledging of obedience to the Sea of Rome bée an argument of a true Bishop his booke de vera obedientia of true obedience doth declare and almost all the time of his bishopriche he neuer acknowledged the supremacie to apperteine to the Sea of Rome but to the prince as the Bishop now doth there néede no recordes for the matter And as for olde recordes since the first grafting and planting of the faythe in Englande whiche is farre longer than eyther from your Apostle monke Augustine or from Birinus Bishop of Winchester the recordes do testifie howe the Christians whome your Augustine and his mates founde in thys Realme neyther kept the ceremonyes and rytes of the Romaine Churche nor admitted the Legantine authoritie of your sayde Apostle which argueth that theyr Bishoppes acknowledged not as you saye the supremacie of the Sea of Rome nor were confirmed by the same euen from Lucius till almost King Arthures tyme when the Heathen Sarons so preuayled in the west parts that euen in Winchester in King Arthures reigne Cerdicius erected a Temple of Heathen Idolles falsely called yet to this daye the Temple of Dagon as the olde recordes doe mention And therefore your maior is false for Englande also Now M. St. séeing the falsenesse of this argument of succession to be such that he dare not abide the triall of his recordes he flyeth from it and graunteth at the length the B. vocation to be good and sownd Yet hath he a stronger reason to disable him which is this No heretike ought to be admitted to a Byshops roome or if he be he forthwith ought to be remoued But for that yee are yoked or as ye pretende maryed ye are no doubt an Heretike Ergo were your vocation good and sounde yet haue you disabled your selfe to occupie that roome and eyther ought not to be admitted or forthwith ought ye to be remoued I aunswere the maior iâ—… true and if it were as truely executed none should better féele it than the popish prelates who confesse them selues not only for other Seas but euen for their hed and mother sea of Rome that diuers hereâ—…ikes haue bene B. thereof Who being so admitted I demaunde with Piers PlowmaÌ„ of you M. St. by this your maior who shall hang the Bell about the rattons necke who shall remoue an heretike Bishop of Rome I thinke it will belong or euer he remoue him selfe The minor of this argument is of the diuels sophisâ—…rie so S. Paule calleth it doctrinam daemoniorum and sayth let a B. be the husbande of one wife and so was Saint Peter who ye say was your first Bishoppe of Rome And yet neither was Saint
sticke at that ye will not sticke and make that false that ye graunt true or else ye proue master Feck not to be ignorant contrarie to his defence and all the rest of your owne défence of him as we shall sée your wordes afterwarde In the meane time let vs sée howe pretily ye shift off the matter onely bicause the Bishop names Tho. of Aquine a schole Papist for the diuision of Ignoraunce thinking ye haue gotten a wonderfull aduauntage thereby for the Popes supremacie But nowe sayth M. Stap. the verye authour brought forth by master Horne so fullie and effectually dischargeth M. Feck of all three and chargeth M. Horne with the worst of them three that is wilfulnesse and malice as he shal winne small worship by alleaging of S. Thomas For S. Tho. sayeth plainely that we are obliged and bounde vpon paine of euerlasting damnation to beleeue that the Pope is the onely supreme heade of the whole Church Nowe fearing as not without good cause that the B. would in this matter reiect the authoritie of this Thomas whom our Thomas calleth a late latine writer and to much affectionate to the Pope as it were by preuention He can not well reiect his authoritie sayeth he vsing it him selfe And why so Sir I pray you must euery one that citeth him in any one poynt receyue and admit his authoritie to in euerie poynt Is it lawfull for the Sorbonistes the Scholemen and the whole rabble of the Papistes yea for Thomas Stapleton him selfe to accept Thomas of Aquines authoritie in some poyntes and to reiect his authoritie in other some poyntes and is it not lawfull for the Bishop or anye other to vse the same libertie The Sorbonistes affirme of this Thomas Illa doctrina non potest esse in omnibus sic approbata c. That doctrine can not in all thinges be so approued that conteyneth many thinges erronious in fayth but as they say the foresayde doctrine of Saint Thomas not onelye in the matter of the absolute necessitie of a creature c. but also in manye other thinges conteyneth manye matters erronious in fayth And againe Non oportet credere c. VVee muste not beleeue that the doctrine it selfe is in no parte thereof erronious or hereticall wherein are conteyned manye contrarieties and repugnancies yea euen in the matter perteyning to the sayth â–ª but manye suche contrarieties and repugnancies are conteyned in the doctrine of Saynt Thomas Agayne 〈◊〉 dicunt aliqui c. And some saye for thys that manye maye denye the glosses of the decrees and Decreâ—… when the glosse doeth openlye denye the texte and lykewyse some saye of the ordinarye glosses of the Byble that notwithstanding seeme to bee of greater authoritie when they are alleaged for authoritie than is the Doctryne of Saint Thomas The sixte example maye bee giuen of certayne Doctours whiche are not canonized Saintes as the venerable Anselme Byshoppe of Cant. Hughe of Saint Victor and certayne other whose sayinges or wrytinges are in certayne poyntes founde erronious and yet theyr doctrine seemeth to bee no lesse authenticall than the doctrine of Saint Thomas sithe they are of the skilfull in their scolasticall actes alleaged for authoritie nor are wonted to bee denyed but their sayinges reuerently to be glosed and expounded whiche notwythstanding the Schoolemen are not woont to doe on the sayinges of Saint Thomas and therefore it seemeth presumptuous so to extoll hys Doctrine ouer them and other Doctours that wee maye not beleeue and affirme that hee erred in fayth euen as other also haue erred And after this as likewise before reckoning vp diuerse errours these spéeches are common Ista locutio est de virtute sermonis falsa multum impropria c. This speech in the force of the wordes is false and verie improper Ista doctrina multos errores continet c. This Doctrine conteyneth manie errours Uidetur multipliciter erroneum c. It seemeth diuerse wayes erroneous Deficit in multis c. If fayles in many poyntes Non est verum c. It is not true Et breuiter haec alia multa erronea falsa impropriè dicta videÌ„tur multis in praedicta doctrina contineri quae tamen ex taediâ—… pertransimus And briefly these and many other erronious false improper sayings seeme to many to be conteyned in the foresaide doctrine the which notwithstanding we ouerpasse for tediousnesse And from hence they discend to manifest errours in diuinitie And in conclusion write thus of him They say also that in verie many places of his doctrine he erred by reason of this that he applied to much the principles of philosophie or rather certaine wordes of Philosophers to the conclusions of Diuinitie Thus say the great Censors of the Popish doctrine agaynst Thomas of Aquine so well they agrée togither in vnitie of doctrine obiecting discorde vnto vs Yea the whole swarme of Papists not excepting our Thom. St. here him selfe vnlesse he be returned to the truth since he wrote his booke reiecteth and condemneth Thom â–ª of Aquines iudgement and authoritie in one of the most necessarie matters of Christian religion namely the doctrine of iustification For expounding this sentence of S. Paule Arbitramur hemâ—…neÌ„ iustificari absque operibus legis Arbitramur enim nos c. For we being taught of Christ thinke sayth Thomas according to the truth of the Apostle that euerie man whether he be Iewe or Gentile is iustified by faith Actes 15. By fayth purifying their hearts that without the workes of the law and that not onely without the ceremoniall works which did not giue grace but also without the works of the moral commandements according to that saying to Titus 3. Not of the works of the righteousnes that we haue wrought The reason is presumed that we are saued for our merits the which he excludeth when he sayth not of the works of the righteousnesse which we haue done But the true reason is the onely mercy of god There is not therefore in them the hope of iustification sed in sola fide but in fayth alone VVorkes are not the cause that any bodie is iust before God but they are rather executions and the manifestings of righteousnesse Where Tho. of Aquine thus according to Gods worde speaketh the truth as in this poynt here of iustification the Bishop and all other faythfull receyue his iudgement and admit the same with better reason than the Papists reiect it But where as in many other poyntes he swarueth from the truth though the Papists saint him neuer so much yet there all true saintes with good reason refuse him As in this that master Stapleton citeth out of him who confesseth him selfe that Thomas being a late latine writer wrote partiallye in this poynte bycause hée was to muche affectioned to the Pope and shall we beléeue such an affectionate wryter in hys partiall affection Or shall we beléeue master Stapleton no
that said there was no difference betweene Priest and Bishop betweene him that fasted and that did not fast and that the sacrifice for the dead was fruitlesse Howe say you to Iouinian that denied virginitie to haue any excellencie aboue Matrimonie or any speciall rewarde at Gods handes to the Arians that denied the miracles done at Saints tombes to be true Miracles and that the Martyres can not cast out the Diuels and relieue them that be possessed To the Bogomiles that said the Diuels sate at the Saints tombes and did wonders there to illude and deceyue the people to cause the people to worship them To Berengarius condemned in diuerse Councels first for denying of the Real presence in the Sacrament of the Altare and then for denying the Transubstantiation To the Paulicians that said these woordes of Christ take eate this is my bodie are not to be vnderstanded of his bodie or the bread and wine vsed at the celebration of our Lordes maundie but of the holy Scriptures â–ª which the priestes should take at Christes hande and deliuer and distribute to the people To Claudius and Vigilantius that denied the inuocation of Saintes and enueighed against the blessed reliques and the vse of lightes and other ceremonies of the Church To the Massilians and other heretikes saying that concupiscence as a sinne remaineth in vs after holy baptisine And bicause ye shall not say I suppresse conceale or obscure the chiefe and most notable persons of your auncestrie how say ye to the Emperours Philippicus Leo Constantinus condemned with their adherentes by the seuenth general Councel at Nice that villayned by defacing breaking and burning the images of all the holy hallowes of Christ and Christes to to whome for your more honour and glorie I adioyne the Emperour Iulianus the Apostata VVho as ye do in your bookes and pulpits cried out vppon the Christians O ye wretched men that worship the wood of the Crosse setting vp the signe of it vppon your foreheads and dores you therefore that are of the wisest sorte are worthy to be hated and the residue to be pitied that treading after your steppes come to such a kinde of wretchednesse To the Pelagians affirming that children not Baptised shal be saued and yet are your Maisters in this point worse than the Pelagians aswell for that some of them haue saide that some infantes though vnbaptized shal be damned and some other though vnbaptized shal be saued And some of them especially Caluine and other Sacramentaries say that they shall come without Baptisme to the kingdome of heauen which the Pelagians durst not say but that they should haue the life euerlasting putting a difference but peeuishlie betwixt these two And if ye thinke the race of your worthie generation is not fetched high inough we wil mount higher and as high as may be euen to Simon Magus him selfe Of whome Marcion and Manicheus and after long and honorable succession your Patriarches Luther and Caluine haue learned their goodly doctrine against free will. Yea to touche the very fundation and wellspring of this your new Gospell which altogether is grouÌ„ded vpon Iustification without good works in that also ye draw very nigh to the said Simon Magus In all this here is nothing els but the heaping vp of an impertinent sâ—…launderous and maliciouse rable partely of Heretikes partely of no Heretikes some of them falsely belied most of them falsely applied eyther they defending no such things or some of these us Heresies nor any of their Heresies mainteyned of vs. First for the Arianisme of Aerius with whom M. Stapleton beginneth would God the Papistes had not as much defaced the glory of Christ as did the Ariaus but he findeth no faulte with them therefore He vpbraydeth to vs thrée other pointes First that Aerius said there was no difference betweene Priest and Bishop and ye aâ—…e M. Stapleton how say we to him What soeuer we say to him we haue first to say to you that sauing the reuerence of your Priesthood there is no difference betweene you and a lier to obiect Aerius herein to vs Whereas ye know well inough our Church doth acknowledge in the ministerie a difference of Deacon and Elder from a Bishop although not according to your Popish orders For as neyther Epiphanius nor yet Augugustine quoted by you speaketh there of any sacrificing Priest so he neuer knewe any such Pontificall prelates as your Popishe Churche bréedeth And yet of those that were euen then in Epiphanius time and of their difference from the Elders or Priestes if ye know not how it came Hierome that liued in the same age will tell you or if ye haue not redde him your owne Canons will tell ye what he saithe I dem est ergo Presbyter qui Episcopus antequam Diabols studia c. An Elder or Priest therefore is the same that a Bishop and before that the studies of the Diuell were made in Religion and that the people saide I holde of Paule I of Apollo I of Cephas the Churches were gouerned by the common Counsell of the Elders but after that euery one did accompt those to be his and not to be Christes whome he had Baptized in all the worlde it was decreed that one of the Elders being chosen should be placed aboue the rest to whom all the care or charge of the Church should belong and the seede of scismes be taken away And a litle after Sicut ergo Presbyteri as therefore the Elders know that they by the custome of the church are subiect to him that is set ouer them so let the Bishops know that they more by custome than by the truth of the Lordes dispeÌ„sation are greater than the Elders This was the iudgement of the auncient Fathers yet were they no Arians nor Aerians therefore Yea Peter Lombarde the maister of the sentences citing also Isidorus to witnesse saith Apud vetereâ—… idem Episcopi Presbyterâ—… fuerunt Among the auncient Fathers Bishops and Elders were all one And againe alleaging the Apostle S. Paule he saith Qualis autem â–ª c. But what manner an Elder ought to be chosen the Apostle writing to Timothie declareth where by the name of Bishop he signifieth an Elder And anon after Cumque omnes and when all of them he meaneth his false seueÌ„ orders are spirituall and holy yet the Canons account only two orders to be excelling holie that is to say Deaconship and Eldership Bicause the primitiue Churche is redde to haue these alone and we haue the Apostles commaundement of these alone for the Apostles in euery Citie ordeined Bishops and Elders Neyther the Master only writeth thus but almost all your schoolemen yea though they be them selues of the contrarie opinion yet they write this was the auncient opinion And so Durandus though he make a difference betwéene the power of Iurisdiction the power of order yet he sheweth that
at that time about the dead yea euen those sayth Epiphanius Qui primas sibâ—… ferre videntur c. That among certaine exercisers of godlinesse in Egipt seemed to beare the chiefest sway and also of those in Thebaida and other Regions that denied the resurrection of the bodie Et Graeci quidam c. And certaine Grecians there were that vtterly denied the resurrection On the other part there were some that grauÌ„ted it but with very fond and straunge opinions that partly they had receiued of the heathen Philosophers partly they had deuised of theÌ„ selues For this hath bene alwayes one of the deuils chiefe practises to abuse and deceyue the liuing by the dead And from hence as S. Ambrose and S. August affirme by worshipping the pictures of the deade sprang all Idolatrie and therefore the Deuill stryued so muche for the bodie of Moses as diuerse learned fathers note thereon And of all errours the most auncient are those that haue sprong about the deade As with the Saduces among the Iewes before Christes comming by other among the Corinthians in S. Paules time baptising ouer the deade and these aboue sayd Heresies in the east Church As likewise in the west by thrusting the communion bread into the mouthes of the dead by conceyuing opinions of their estate such as they had learned out of Plato and Uirgill of their paynes and torments of their ease deliuerance whom they loued and wished well vnto of whom sayth Saint August Humana quadam beneuolentia mihi falli videntur and as euen Epiphanius sayth Quum vero tales à via vera discesserint veritatem dei ad fabulas conuerterint VVhen such men swarued from the true way and conuerted the truth of God into fables Such as Origens conceytes and allegoryes were such as the morals of Oregorie are full of suche as the Heretikes fathered of the Apostles names Saint Peters Gospell Saint Thomas Gospell Nichodemus Gospell c. Then no marueyle if not onely the Heretikes had ill opinions of thedeade but also some of the godly and learned fathers in this behalfe were eyther somewhat deceyued ouercuriously searching and affirming that they knewe not or caryed to muche away with the sway of the peoples abuses Yea and by his leaue though he were an excellent and godly wryter yet in this poynte Epiphanius somewhat ouershotte himselfe Althoughe I speake it not to accuse him nor to excuse Aerius for no doubt as Aerius was an open Artian that denyed the diuinitie of oure Sauiour Christe so conertly he shotte herein agaynst the resurrection with the foresayde Heretykes as appeareth by Epiphanius his confutation of him Who not onely confuteth him but also sheweth why at that time they vsed suche an order for the deade whiche in the latter ende of the Booke shewing the diuerse rytes of the Christians in his Countrey then he expoundeth what it was In his autem qui vita defuncti sunt ex nomine memorias faciunt orationes ad deum perficientes ac cultus diuinos mysteriorum dispensationes But as concerning those which are deade they make memorials by name while they make their prayers to God and diuine worship and dispensing of the mysteries That is in their publike prayers of the diuine seruice and receyuing the Sacrament of the Lords Supper they made a thankefull memoriall of suche as were departed in the fayth of Christ giuing God prayse and thankes for them to confirme the fayth of the lyuing in the hope of the deades resurrection Now that they ment not by these doings any such deliuerance out of paynes of Purgatorie or any such other thing as the Papistes dreame of and woulde deceyue the people withall Epiphanius himselfe doeth plainely declare not to muche regarding what the Heretyke did pretende as what hée mente to destroy the hope of the Resurrection and béeing an Artian to abase the prefection of Christe Postea verò sayeth hée de co quòd proferantur nomina defunctorum c. But afterwarde concerning that the names of those that are departed this life aâ—…e brought foorth what can be more profitable than this what more commodious than this and what more worthie admiration that these that are present beleue that they which are departed do liue and are not none but they are and are liuing with the Lorde Whereby it appeareth that those prayers were principally to confirme the hope of the immortalitie of the soule and the bodies resurrection and rather confute the Heresie of Pope Iohn 22. than confirme any Popish Masse or Dirige for the deade Notwithstanding for that that followeth Epiphanius is not altogither excusable though to be borne withall more than you beare with him for rending the picture of Christ and not suffering so much as an Image on painted cloth no not of Christ himselfe to stande in the Church although it serued but for the vse of a vayle What would he haue done trow you if he had come into one of your Churches all to be dashed with Images not onely painted on cloathes but carued in wood and stone no doubt he would haue broken them all to fitters and haue cryed out on your open Idolatrie And so had he seene what horrible errours and superstitions your Church mainteyneth about the dead and that his wordes should after haue giuen occasion to pretende in his name a defence of suche superstition vndoubtedly hee woulde haue tolde you to your faces that you wrested his wordes and abused him and were farre worse your selues than euer Aerius was and woulde as did Saint August haue reuoked such wordes as whereby ye shoulde haue picked any such occasion But he foresawe not this as he saw the other But rather as ye say afterwarde of Nicephorus was caried away in the sway of the common errour and so defended that which ye nowe pretende to boulster your errours by As for any authoritie for this vsage such as it was Epiphanius alleageth none at al out of the word of God yea and that was more fonde in the doing he sayth they prayed for the Patriarkes Prophetes Apostles and Euangelistes Wherin ye will graunt I am sure M. St. both your selfe and your Church doth swarue from him And your owne Popes Decrée sayth Iniuriam facit martyri qui orat pro martyre he doth iniurie to a martyr that prayeth for a martyr The reason he is in blisse already But wherefore saith he made they this prayer for the sainctes already in heauen for soothe to separate Christ from the order of men by the honor they gaue him that he excelled all creatures were they neuer so holy Which though it be most true and withall confuteth your adoration of Saincts departed yet their reason héerein was very fonde that therefore they should pray for them that were already in perfect blisse and glory And as fond was it to pray for those that died in their sinnes agaynst
was giuen not to a fewe being yet but â—…elie Christians of putting confidence rather in Sainctes bones than in the liuing God which ought not to haue bene done And thus do your own Pope Councels and writers condemne your selues for the horrible abuses of these your blessed Reliques and therefore we may worthely reiect them To your Lightes I answere true it is the Churche in the time of S. Hierome loÌ„g before vsed Lights But as he witnesseth himself they vsed theÌ„ for their necessitie in their Morning and Euening prayers which first sprang of this that the Churche in time of persecution assembled as they might closely in caues in cellars and other priuy places comming togither very early in the morning and very late in the euening yea in the dead of the night to inuocate God to heare his worde and participate the Lords supper so that lights were necessarie for them After the time of persecution kéeping still those howres of prayer they likewise serued for their vse till by litle litle as other things they also began eueÌ„ about S. Hieromes time to be abused And not long after about Gregories time to be kept light euen in the broade day and to be set in goldeÌ„ candlestickes which the former fathers counted and called heathen customes For the Heathen vsed lampes burning day night and tapers before their Idols on their aulters besides their torche lights euen as the Papists vsed But you wil say not they onely vsed lights but God also ordeyned lightes to be vsed in the Temple Indéede if ye could proue vs to be bounde to the ceremonies of the olde lawe or that Christ had renewed them and not rather abrogated them nor ordayned any other like them in their places then should ye say something to the matter But what néede ye labour to reduce the lawe since ye are not ashamed to confesse it came from the Heathen vsage Polygrane confesseth and braggeth of it that all your candles on Candlemasse day came from the wicked and old superstition of the Ethnikes Tradunt enim hystoriographi c. For the historiographers tell that the heathen Romaines had a custome that alwaies at the fift yeare in the moneth of February they kept the feast of going about the clensing with torches and lightes in the honour of Februa the mother of Mars whom they tooke for the God of battayle And also in the same moneth the Romaine women with the like worship of candels kept the memorie of Proserpina whome being rauished of Pluto the God of hell they feigne that hir mother Ceres sought hir eueÌ„ to mount Aetna VVhich superstition was first of the Grecians bicause of a most grieuous pestilence in the yeare of health 551. turned into the foresayde worship of solemnitie But afterwarde of Sergius Byshop of Rome who first chaunged his name for the deformitie thereof being called Os Porci Swines face or Hogges snout it was turned into a common religion as also the feast of all the Gods was dedicate to all Saints VVhich was about the yeare of the Lorde 694 â–ª that the Christian people should make memorials not so much of Februa and Proserpine as of Christ and Marie Iacobus de Uoragine agréeth somwhat herewith though herein he agrée little to himself and least of all to the truth besides his impudent Idolatrie to the Uirgine Marie quite forgetting Christ and ascribing all the honour of your candels vnto hir First he sayth it came vp herevppon Quod Simeon lumen Christum vocauit ideo consuetudo inoleuit in Ecclesia vt hodie lumina deferamus Bicause Simeon called Christ a light therefore grewe the custome of the Church that on this day we carie lightes For euen as this day Marie Ioseph Simeon and Anna did after the order of Procession carie a light in the Church so do we after the order of Procession carie Candles light vnto the Church As this is a most euident and grosse lie for neyther then nor long after they knewe what Procession mâ—…nt nor caried any light in the Temple which had bene quite beyond Gods commaundement nor any such doing is in the scripture but onely that this blinde authour followed to much the pictures in the Primer or the Masse booke that painte out the midwife or Ioseph holding a Taper so it neyther agréeth with the other common opinion nor yet with himselfe For euen immediately after But we must note saith he that there is a triple reason of this obseruance aud custome the one a literall the other a spirituall the thirde a morall The literall reason iâ—… this for bicause the Romaynes in the olde time did celebrate three feastes with lightes the First in the honour of Proserpina the Seconde in the honour of Februa the Third in the honor of all the Court of hell â–ª c. to appease them and induce them to mercie that they would more mildely punishe the soules of their friendes departed But bicause it is a hard matter to forsake things accustomed the Romaynes after they receyued the sayth of Christ did yet also kepe these feasts of lightes in Februarie Pope Gregorie therefore did chaunge this feast into the honour of the mother of light That in hir honour we should beare lightes that bare vnto vs the true light Nor that now it shoulde bee made to Februa the mother of the God of battell but to the honour of the mother of the GOD of peace That it should not nowe be to the honour of the court of Deuils but to the honour of the Queene of all Angels and worthily was this translation made The Romaynes did therefore honour Proserpina that so she might obtaine grace of hir husbande They honored Februa to obtain victorie of hir sonne They honored the Deuils that punished the soules to encline them to mercie But these three things we receyue of the mother of God that is to wit grace mercie and victorie And therefore the Church singeth Marie mother of grace mother of mercie For shee gyueth grace to the lyuing and therefore is called the mother of grace And to the deade obteyneth mercie and therefore it followeth mother of mercie And to the vniuersall Church shee obteyneth victorie of their enimyes and therefore it followeth defende thou vs from the enimie c. Thus sayeth Iacobus de Uoragine of the originall of your feast of lightes That it was but a chaungeling of the Infidels hatched of your Pope on this grounde that it was harde to forsake an olde Heathen custome But thinking to chaunge these lightes to the better haue yée not blasphemed God euen by his Saints as yll or worse than they did by theyr Idols Your Legende disagréeth from thys latter deuise of Proserpina c. And sayeth This feast is called Candlemasse and is made in remembraunce of the offering that oure Ladie offered in the Temple as sayde is And eueryeche beareth this day a Candle of VVaxe
very many should runne to Hierusalem leauing their wiues and childreÌ„ and thinke that a meruaylous kinde of godlinesse is therein that we should thinke all the constitutions of men to binde vs on paine of hell fire That we should put the chiefest parte of Religion in the choyse of meates that in the Churches no decking should seeme to much but eueÌ„ excesse also should pertaine to the honour of God that to what Ceremonies ye lust very much should be attributed that boyes and wenches for triflings causes so sone as euer they repent them of their estate dispising their parents should runne to MoÌ„kes or Nonnes that no man but a Diuine should talke of Christ or of the holy Scriptures that in Sainctes we should put very much confidence that we should know euill men not to be indeede in the Churche but to be of the Churche that we should beleue the Church to be marueylously trimmed with an exceeding and wonderfull strange varietie of seruices and vestiments that lawyers should be comly appareled that we should kisse the shoe soles and the shoes of saincts that nothing at all of the Popes institutions should be released although great profite should moue it that they that are dying should lay-out obites that mans mortuaries may be made that in them we should repose very much trust other matters of this sorte But Christian godlinesse is placed herein that we should loue God with al our hart and our neighbour as our selues That in Christ we should put the summe of our hope that we should frame our manners our life after the doctrine and exaÌ„ple of him after the rule of the Scriptures FroÌ„ the which whosoeuer calleth vs away by any manner of means they do rather leade vs into the dauÌ„ger of Paganisme Thus much Erasmus so far as he durst so truly that you nor all the world can denie theÌ„ escried the wickednesse of your popish Ceremonies which bicause we refuse on these so good coÌ„sideratioÌ„s ye cal vs Heretikes But whether we in not admitting them or you in vrging maintayning them be rather Heretikes let the Reader discerne Iudge You aske vs next what we say to the Messalians and other Heretikes saying concupiscence as a sinne remayneth in vs after holy Baptisme To your other namelesse Heretikes when ye name the childe we shall tell you what we say vnto them To the Messalians saying sinne remaines in vs after holy Baptisme I answere that euen your selfe do shewe by your continuall lust of lying that concupiscence after holy Baptisme is yet a fowle sinne in you Otherwise ye would not still so lust to lie both on vs the Fathers and the Heretikes also Ye cite S. Augustine to declare the Messalians errour and so he truly doth telling how they say that in Baptisme our sinnes are taken away as a raâ—…er taketh heare away leauing the stoompes vntaken away If ye obiect this vnto vs your selfe beareth witnesse against you that ye sâ—…ander vs For we fréely coufesse that by Baptisme the forgiuenesse of all our sinnes stoomps all past or to come is sealed vp vnto vs So that they are all washt away but as S. Augustine saith of Originall sinne him selfe Non vt non sit sed vt non imputetur Not that it is not but that is nor imputed So that hereby you will make S. Augustine him selfe a Messalian that writeth against the Messalians And I may say to you your iolie porkling Pigghius maketh of S. Augustine litle better accompte Deinde hoc mihi videtur eâ—…identer falsum c. Furthermore saith he this seemeth to me euidently false in that he saith carnall concupiscence the which is in our flesh sighting against the lawe of our minde to be properly and truly sinne in those which are not Baptized The which should be forgiuen in Baptisme that it should be sinne no more and yet not withstanding should remaine the gilt of it being taken away For the which cause he is so offended with S. Augustine that very groynishly he saith Ut autem haec ipsa vis concupiscibilis c. But that this very force of concupiscence should properly be sinne a faulte iniquitie odious of it selfe to God and execrable and placing in his wrath indignation or displeasure it seemeth to me to be spoken most absurdely â–ª nor no lesse absurdly that the selfe same should remaine and not be also abhominable to God if at any time it were so Thus hoggishly someth Pigghius against S. Augustine for making Concupiscence and Original sinne to be verily sinne euen before Baptisme misconstruing S. Augustine in saying it is not sinne after baptisme Where S. August expoundeth himself that it is not sinne then in that respect that it is not imputed but forgiuen where before it was sinne in it selfe and in imputation also being not yet forgiuen Nowe where he sayth this is most absurde to say that it was sinne before and it still remayneth after baptisme the same that it was before baptisme and that it is not abhominable sinne after baptisme if it were so before putting the case it were so before It followeth then that eyther you confesse master Stap. with Saint August that it is still in it selfe sinne after baptisme though not sinne by imputation or else that ye say with Piâ—…hius that it is neyther sinne in it selfe nor by imputation neyther after nor before If ye say with Saint Augustine you incurre that which Pigghius calleth the most absurditie and yet incurre you a greater making Saint Augustine a Messalian to that purposely wrote agaynst them yea and your selfe a Messalian with vs also agréeing with vs therein and yet therein wryting agaynst vs. If ye say with Pigghius thinking to escape absurditie in being agaynst Saint Augustine which notwithstanding is absurditie inough to be agaynst him whom ye pretende to follow you incurre manifest falshood in being against the truth yea and more absurditie to then any yet rehearsed For whether is it more absurde to impute sinne to him that hath none or to forgiue him his sinne that yet in déede hath sinne and of mercie not to impute it to him as though he had not that he hath which is no absurditie at all â–ª For although where sinne is it may be not imputed yea as Dauid sayth this is blessednesse Beatuâ—… vir cuâ—… dominus non imputauit peccatum Blessed is the man whose sinnes the Lorde hath not imputed to him Yet can there not be imputation of sinne where there is in déed no sinne at all as Pigghius most absurdly sayth Groyne you nowe with Pigghius that it is neyther sinne after nor before and we will take Saint Augustines great absurditie on vs to defende that it is in it selfe verie sinne and damnable sinne before baptisme and remayneth still in his nature verie sinne but not damnable bicause it is not imputed after baptisme And now let vs
Generall assemblies at your Trident Councell as ye bragge vpon If â—…e meane for the frée libertie and order of it it was not onely Nationall of Italians in Italy as the Donatistes was of Aphricans in Aphrica but also more partiall violent and nothing but tongtyed bondage and compulsion farre worse than was the Donatistes Eightly say you The Donatistes sayde that all the world was in an Apostacie before the comming of their Apostle Donatus and is not Luther the same man to you that Donatus was to them We estéeme Luther as a notable organ of God to detect your falshoods and open his truth although we graunte he were not without his infirmities but what dothe that excuse your apostacie or argue him to be a Donatist Yea though he had sayd such words now as then Donatus falsly sayde Mâ—…ght not an vniuersall apostacie haue bene since or be nowe bicause there was none suche then and yet Luther charged not al the world but al your popish Church with this Apostacie And what dothe he therein that is not manifest what said he that the Apostle S. Paule foresayde not there should come a defection before the coÌ„ming of christ what said he that eueÌ„ at your last Trident councel that ye craked on last the Frenche Legate did not openly say to your Prelates faces Verily we must euen of necessitie coÌ„fesse this quoth he whether it hath bene perchauÌ„ce by mans infirmitie or by some negligeÌ„ce of the Prelats of the church or else by their preposterous godlinesse if I should name no greeuouser thing that there hath crept into the Church very many things worthy to be abolished abrogated or restrayned Yea what saide he that euen your Pope hath not confessed VVe know saith Pope Adrian to the Princes of Germanie in his Cpistle wherin he chiefly inueigheth agaynst Luther that euen in this holy seate many abhominable things there haue bene already now certayne yeres abuses in spirituall matters excesses in coÌ„maundements to conclude all things haue bene changed into peruersitie not it is maruell if the sicknes haue descended froÌ„ the head into the members from the chief byshops into the inferiour Prelates all we that is to say the eccl â–ª Prelates haue erred euery one in his owne wayes nor there hath bene any this long while the which dyd good no not one This general apostacie loe your owne Pope confesseth both for him selfe for his predecessors for al other Prelates and Priests vnder him and for al the Church besides And weye these words wel M. St. for they serue agaynst you in many matters touched before chiefly whether the Pope al his Prelates yea al the visible state of the Church may erre or no. But ye were best make this Pope a Donatist too To the author of the harboroughe ye are answered by other as I heare say And it is but your péeuishe quarell Ninthly say you The Donatists being charged and pressed to shew the beginning and continuance of their doctrine and the ordinarie succession of their Bishops were so encombred that they coulde neuer make any conuenient aunswere And are not you I pray you with your fellowes Protestant Bishops fast in the same myre If not aunswere then to my third demaunde in the fortresse annexed to Sainct Bede This is Satis proimperio More than inough for your authoritie Master Stapleton to commaunde our Bishops to aunswere your vaine demaundes and pelting bookes or else they must be Donatists But euen so played the Donatists with the godly Bishops then as you play now with ours Your humour is all on vaine glorie to set oute and vaunt your owne workes But it is a signe ye lacke good neighbours at Louaine For one of them not your selfe should haue commended to vs your Demaundes Fortresses and Translations But your selfe must be faine I sée to put vs in minde of them for your brethren séeke theyr owne glorie likewise in their writings And why then shoulde not you séeke yours as well as they But for my part as I haue not youre noble Fortresse so I thinke your Demaunde be not worthie the séeking for much lesse the aunswering I pray you pardon me if I thinke amisse for I measure it by many other Demaunds of this your Counterblast As for the beginning of our doctrine is alreadie shewed euen he that is the beginning the ending the Alpha and Omega he began our doctrine and hath euer continued and preserued it We say with Chrysostome as is before sayd Ad montes Let vs flee to the mountaines that is to the scripture we say with Saint Cyprian Ad fontein Let vs go to the fountaine that is to the Scripture we say with the Prophetes Ad legem testimentum To the lawe and testimonie that is to the Scripture we say with him that is the beginning himselfe venite ad 〈◊〉 come vnto me and we admit onely that Quod suit ab initio reiecting that doctrine of which we may say Non suit sic ab initio It was not so at the beginning this ye say the Donatistes being charged and pressed could not do but we shewe you here the very beginning of all our doctrine Now if a man should demaunde of you to shew the beginning of all your doctrines aske you as Christ teacheth vs to demaunde of you the originals is it of God or is it of men then are you for a great many of them bemyred fast with the Donatistes and can not tell how they came vp sauing that they crept in by custome and many retayned of the old superstitions of the Pagans little or nothing turquesed but none of them al came vp otherwise than by meÌ„ none were set foorth of God in his holy word And so againe ye are Donatists or worse than they and the worse in that as the French Kings Embassadour aforesaide tolde your Trident Fathers ye hold fast with tooth nayle all things that ye haue receiued of long custome But the old fathers tell you from whom ye father your customes We must not follow the customes of man but the truth of God. Yea your old Popes them selues Felix Gregory Nicholas Leo can tell you that all customes should giue place to the Scriptures for Christe said not he was custome but the way the truth and the life That we should not goe one Iote from the Apostles institutions That such ill customes are no lesse to be auoided than a pestilent infection which except it be taken out the soner the wicked will take holde of it as dutie of priuileges And that such transgressions and presumptions being not forthwith suppressed will be reuerenced for lawes and celebrated like priuileges for euer Here is the comming vp and beginning of the most of your doctrines and therefore what hable ye of your Bishops since your Bishops them selues say thus of your long customes beginning and continuance of them As for the
worshipped ye then and that with such high worship to your solemne Saint Thomas Becket that dyed for no matter of Religion at all But eyther for his obstinacie agaynste his liege Lorde and agaynst all the Barons Spirituall and Temporall of the Realme or if ye colour it neuer so fayre yet was it but in mainteyning his honour and the priuileges of the Clergie and that contrarie to the auncient custome of the Realme except yée will graunt that the Popishe Religion doeth consiste herein Whiche if ye bée ashamed to confesse vpbrayde not then for shame false Martyrs vnto vs nor yet the Canonising of wicked Sainctes We vse no such Canonization at all It redoundeth on your selfe on your Legende on your Popes and on your Pope holy Saincts Whome by this rule you make both Donatists Montanists Manicheans or what soeuer Heretikes ye can obiect besides As for all these Comparisons hitherto betwéene the Protestantes and the Donatists wherein ye thinke ye haue be stowed great cunning there is not 〈◊〉 poyâ—… that is not violently wrested to make it séeme to touch vs and not one poynt that being returned on your selues doeth not rightly and fully hitte you home againe And therefore I for my part am content as you concluding say you be To ende this talke with the whole conference leauing it to the indifferent Reader to consider whether the Popishe Catholikes or the Protestants drawe nearer to the Donatists To come newe at length to the sixt and last parte of this Chapter which consistes in remâ—…ing such motiues as the Bishop alleageth to burtheâ—… Master Feckenham with the practise of the Donatists First master Stapleton deuideth these motiues in twaine Let vs then sayth master Stapleton proceede foorth and consider vpon what good motiues ye charge master Feckenham to be a Donatist whiche are to say truth none other but falsehoode and follie But as ye surmise the one is bicause hee craftily and by a subtile shifte refuseth the prooues of the olde Testament as the Donatists did The other bicause hee with the sayde Donatists should auouch that secuâ—…er Princeâ—… haue not to meddle in matters of Religion or causes ecclesiasticall nor to punishe any man for such causes These two motiues ye say Master Stapleton are to say the truth none other but falsehoode and follie In déede they are the worsâ—… by comming through so false a marchantes handes as yours For shame either tell the wordes as they â—…e at least the true and full effect of them or neuer sette them out in a distinct letter syâ—… you so often but euer falsly vpbrayde the Bishop hereof Else all the follie and falsehoode will proue to be in your selfe and not in the Bishops motiues The Bishop spâ—…ke not of Princes medling or punishing for Ecclesiasticall 〈◊〉 as though the Donatists simpliâ—… denied that anâ—… yâ—… graunted Princes yet so much as to meddle or punishe for your Ecclesiasticall causes that is to say to be your executioners therin as though the Emperors other Christian Princes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 more vpon them at that time But the Bishop tolde how the godly fathers craued aide assistance of the magistrats and rulers to reforme them to reduce them to the vâ—…itie of the church to represse their heresies with their au thoritie godly lawes made for that purpose to whome it belonged of duetie and whose especiall seruice of Christ is to see care and prouide that their subiects be gouerned defended and mainteyned in the true and syncere religion of Christ without all errours superstitions and heresies This is that the Bishop wrote and to proue this he alleageth Saint Augustine Thus did Christian Princes gouerne in Ecclesiasticall causes then This did the Donatists then denie vnto them and this do now the Papists denie and ye come sneaking in and tell vs the Bishoppes motiue was this In charging Master Feckenham to followe the Donatists by cause hee with the Donatistes shoulde auouche that seculer Princes haue not to meddle in matters of Religion or causes Ecclesiasticall nor to punishe anie man for suche causes As though the controuersie had bâ—…ne for anie kinde of medling or punishing whiche you sâ—…ming to graunt to Princes to bée your seruaunts and droyles in suche ecclesiasticall causes and so farre as you assigne them might therefore séeme not to play the Donatists when ye play their partes so liuely as can bée and so subtilly that the Donatistes were but Babes vnto you in séeming to giue them some medling or punishing in Ecclesiasticall causes but if they meddle with or punishe you or anie other otherwise than ye commaunde and restrayne them you so little then suffer them to meddle in Ecclesiasticall matters that with solemne curses ye debarre them from medling in anie temporall and ciuill matters too so farre ye passe the Donatists For shame master Stapleton tell your tale plainely that we may sée whether M. Feckenham played the Donatistes part or no or else your doubling wyll declare your selfe to be a Donatist also for companie But let vs sée how ye aunswere these motiues euen as your selfe propounde them The one is say you bicause he craftily and by a subtile shifte refuseth the proues of the old Testament as the Donatistes did Your Stale Iestes M. Stapleton of a fine blast of a horne â–ª of a â—…oule slawe of a blinde betell blunte shifte I ouer passe them When M. Feckenham ye say offereth to yelde if ye can proue this regiment either by the order that Christ left behinde him in the new Testament either by the Doctours either by Councels or els by the continuall practise of any one Churche thinke you M. Horne that this is not a large and an ample offer The largenesse of this offer is not here in questioÌ„ M. St. the offer is large and ample inough â–ª taken of the Bishop at his handes and proued vnto him at his owne demaunde It remaineth then that he stande to his promise and yelde to the truth or else he sheweth that he minded to offer more than he purposed to perfourme Onely now it is examined why here he specifieth the new Testament and quite leaueth out the old Testament â–ª This doing in this pointe saith the B. smelleth of a Donatist Nay say you There is not so much as any coÌ„iecture to gather this vppon yea the old Testament is not by this offer excluded but verely included For if the new Testament which rehearseth many things out of the old haue any thing out of the old Testament that make for this regiment if any Doctour old or new if any Councell haue any thing out of the old Testament that serue for this regiment then is Master Feckenham concluded yea by his owne graunt For so the Doctour or Councell hath it he is satisfied according to his demaunde VVhereby it followeth he doth not refuse but rather allowe and affirme the proufes of the old Testament It might
tale with you Ye do wel to call your answere a tale for ye haue hitherto tolde a faire tale and a well told tale and therfore I pray ye M. Stap. tell on your tale till ye haue redde vs out this worthy chapter And sée that the residue of your tale be accustomable as yâ—… say to this ye haue hitherto tolde vs. The. 19. Diuision THe Bishop for that M. Feck with the Donatists refuseth the proues of the olde Testament â—…or Princes supreme gouernment ioyneth with Saint Aug. agaynst the Donatists and the Papists alleaging out of S. Augusâ—… many sentences first to proue this to be the verie dutie and speciall seruice of Princes vnto God to haue an especiall care diligence and ouersight to see Gods lawes and true Religion set forth and kept and to punish and remoue all things to the contrary Secondly to confute this refusall of the Donatists and Papists besides the foresayde proues and examples hée alleageth oâ—…te of Saint Augustine the examples of the King of Niniue of Darius of Nabuchodonozor and others prouing thereby that the Histories and testimonies cited out of the olde Testament are partly figures and partly Prophecies of the power dutie and seruice that Kings shoulde owe and performe in like sort to the furtherâ—…uce of Christes religion in the time of the newe Testament Master Stapletons aunswere to these testimonies is thréefolde First he laboureth to restraine all the testimonies of Saint Augustine onely to punishing of Heretikes Secondly he laboreth to proue that these testimonies make agaynst vs Thirdly he goeth about once againe by the Bishops illation on these testimonies to clere master Fecâ—…enham of the crime that the Bishop charged him with for refusing the examples of the olde testament The first part he parteth againe in thrée First he gathereth a contract and summe of all these testimonies to the which he yeldeth Secondly he sheweth that this was his olde and former opinion Thirdly he limitteth all the matter only to punishment And first of all he sayth â—…o now haue we mo testimonies out of Saint August to proue that for the which he hath alleaged many things out of S. Aug. already and the which no man denieth For what else proueth all this out of S. Aug. bothe nowe and before alleaged but that christian Princes ought to make lawes and constitutions euen as M. Horne him selfe expoundeth it fol. 12. b for the furtherance of Christes religion Are ye afrayde M. Stap. to be oppressed with the number of testimonies What man and your cause be good the mo the merier they say but bicause your cause is noughte the fewer belike with you the better fare althoughe by your leaue ye make a pretie lye in the beginning to say that he alleageth these testimonies of S. Augustine to proue that for the whiche he hathe alleaged many thinges out of S. Augustine already For the abouesayde allegations were directed to detecte the Donatistes in refusing the Princes authoritie and the examples of the olde Testament and to sée howe like to theirs your dealings to Princes and your refusall of the same examples were But these testimonies present are to confirme the Princes authoritie and the examples of the olde Testament for Princes agaynst both Donatistes and Papistes deniall of their authoritie and refusall of thexamples But let this passe sithe whatsoeuer those or these be ye say no man denieth them For what else say you proueth all this out of S. Aug. bothe nowe and before alleaged but that Princes oughte to make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion this thing no Catholike deâ—…ieth Meane ye playne dealing and speake ye in good sadnesse M St dothe no Catholike denie nor no man denie that Princes may make lawes for the furtheraunce of Christes religion How chaunce then you runne from the obedience of your own naturall most gratious soueraigne that maketh so godly lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion denie that she hath authoritie to make any lawes and coÌ„stitutions in that behalfe but that she must onely be obedient to your Popes and his Priests lawes and constitutions And for this matter ye compile the moste of your works And now ye say no maÌ„ nor catholike denieth it By this rule you be no catholikes that ye crake so much of Nay ye be no men neither for it is moste euident that ye chiefly denie this thing And your selfe in your Preface make it to be the moste principall controuersie of all other and most to be denied If ye be a true Catholike and a true man deale playnly For no doubt ye meane that there is a padde in the sâ—…rawe Ye haue a knacke in your budget whereby ye thinke ye may well graunt this whiche for shame in open wordes ye dare not denie but graunte And yet ye thinke we shall haue no more holde by your graunte than he that holdeth a wette Ele by the tayle For in the ende ye come in with suche a qualification as all the worlde may perceiue a flatte deniall thereof And yet at the firste blushe no man woulde thinke but that the matter betwéene vs and you were full concluded We say all the authoritie that the Quéene hath is onely to this ende in effecte that she oughte thereby to make lawes and constitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion This say you no man denieth but that they oughte to make lawes and coÌ„stitutions for the furtherance of Christes religion Héere you agrée with vs to a simple playne dealing mans iudgement Ye are become a Protestant I hope But what will your good masters at Louaine and your friendes with vs say to you when they shall heare of this graunt they wil affirme with one voyce that they vtterly denie it and aske ye howe ye haue defended master Feckenhams quarell Tushe will you say to them holde your peace sirs all is wel inough there was no remedie but I must néedes grasit to S. Augustines words they were so manyfest and so pressed that there was no helpe but to graunt it yea and to beare downe the matter that no bodie denied it But I haue such a distinction for it that they shal be neuer the néere for all my graunt Did ye neuer réede may ye say to them the practise of Arrius that wheÌ„ he was so vrged that he could not denie it he yelded to the true beleuers and wrote also as I haue done deposing that he beléeued as he had written but when his coÌ„plices herefore exposâ—…ulated with him he declared to them that for all the shewe of his grant in wordes in déede he had graunted nothing He saide he beleeued as he had written and looke here quoth he pulling a paper out of his bosome contayning his Heresie this is the writing to the which I referred my wordes And so may you say to your friendes M. Stap. true in
it is of master Foxes owne setting foorth I graunt M. St. he is the chronicler setteth downe that he findeth Doth that argue that he acknowlegeth for true euery such article as he setteth downe nay he maketh often exception to the contrarie that many of suche articles are falsly obiected which neuerthelesse he setteth downe Yea but there is moe thinges layde vnto him than this By whome M. Stap Forsoothe euen by sir Thomas More A trustie witnesse on your owne side But go to be it he sayde euen so Yet is this iniustly done of you master Stapleton to charge all Protestantes with his opinion in this poynt when they manyfestly mainteine the contrarye We deale not so with you we burden not your whole Churche where ye openly defende the contrarie with the seuerall iudgement of euery writer much lesse of euery obscure author and suche an one as of whome we haue nothing but heresay and that such heresay as his aduersaries loue to reporte and wrest to make it odious to the hearer this is not vpright dealing But yet for al this ye can not héere vpon fasten that whiche so fayne ye would that therfore he is a Donatist The Donatistes denied to Princes the punishment of heretikes and would haue beleefe free This man denieth neither of these First his quarel was not of faith alone but as ye tell it for any maner of crime to be punished by death and yet it followes no more hereon that he woulde haue faith free to beléeue what eche man woulde then he woulde haue it â–ª frée for any manner of cryme to doe what eche man woulde Secondly thoughe he denie the punishment by death yet he denieth not but thereâ—… â–ª graunteth that Princes might make lawes of other kind of punishement which if he graunt them your selfe cleare him of béeing a Donatist But leauing him ye tell vs of greater businesse concerning sir Iohn Oldecastle whoÌ„ ye rattle vp with a susurrauit calling him traytor and detestable Donatist And nowe say you all the weight resteth to proue this substantially to you and to master Foxe And to stoppe all your froward quarellings and accustomable elusions against our proofes VVell I will bring you as I thinke a substantiall and ineuitable proofe that is master Foxe him selfe and no worsse man. Héere is a lustie crake M. Stap. to bumbaste the matter withall out of doubt we shall héere haue some great foyle But let vs sée what all this haynous matter is Forsoothe M. Foxe setteth downe the articles that the Papistes haue composed to be sir Iohn Oldecastles articles the tenth article whereof is this That manslaughter either by warre or by any pretended lawe of iustice or for any temporall cause or spirituall reuelation is expressely contrary to the new Testament which is the lawe of grace and mercie Why M. Stap. is this your substantiall and ineuitable proofe that is master Foxe him selfe and no worsse man this is none of master Foxes saying nor opinion he dothe but write â–ª playne and plat what soeuer articles it pleased his enimies your auncestors to deuise in the name of Sir Iohn Oldecastles articles Lo thus he writeth say you of this worthy Champion and that euen in his owne huge martyrologe who doubteth but to the great exalting and amplification of this noble worke and of his noble holy martyr The worthy prayse of this noble worke in déede and of this noble and holy martyr are no whit blemished by these your scoâ—… raylings M. St. but what kinde of argument call ye this he reciteth this article among the rest and therfore out of doubt he alloweth it and sets it out to hys great exalting and amplification By this argument your selfe allowe the article too for ye haue héere also recited it But what would ye haue sayde if he had subtracted it and the one of the twayne he must haue done either haue left it out or set it out as he founde it But howe chaunce you lefte out that whiche in many places of his worke M. Foxe noteth of the Papists corrupting of those martyrs articles yet which is in déede to his great exalting and amplification he setteth them downe euen as he founde them For the thing to any indifferent reader will easily shewe it selfe But yet goe to once agayne Were this article his or not his it proues not him a Donatist First the Donatistes allowed manslaughter thoughe vnlawfully done as your selfe haue proued before of the Circumcelions But héere ye graunte that he vtterly disalloweth all manslaughter and so ye cleare him héerein of béeing a Donatist Agayne the Donatistes vtterly reiected as your selfe say all the Princes authoritie and all punishement in false religion Contrarywise Sir Iohn Oldecastle allowed their authoritie yea ouer the Pope and his Prelates to punishe them for their false religion And thoughe he disallowed manslaughter yet can ye not gather that he allowed no punishment for false religion Onlesse as ye shewed in the dayes of your late crueltie there be no punishement with you but manslaughter Whereby we maye more iustely gather that he acknowledged their authoritie in willing Princes to punishe thoughe not by deathe than you can any way gather héereon that he vtterly denied all kinde of punishement And if ye would deface his martyrdome for this or couÌ„t it Donatisticall of the same minde was euen sir Thomas More him selfe your owne mery martyr whome ye cited to witnesse a fewe lynes before as appeareth in his Vtopia although more couertly yet he quite disaloweth manslaughter and deuiseth other punishments in stead thereof Is he therefore a Donatiste And I pray you what was all the auncient order in banishing heretikes was it death or were they Donatistes then bicause they allowed not punishment by death So was S. Augustine a Donatiste also whome ye cite agaynst the Donatistes For it was long or euer he came to this opinion that the Donatistes might be slayne and vpon what considerations I wil shew you out of that learned clarke Erasmus who for this matter also had great conflict with your Sorbonistes I denie saythe he that euer I readde that Byshoppes sholude haue stirred vp Kinges to kyll Heretikes For this is not to warne Princes in generall but to appoynte oute vnto them a kynde of punishement But I speake in my reprehension not of these tymes but of Sainct Augustine and the Byshoppes of his age For nowe certayne Abbotes and Byshoppes thinke it a moste acceptable sacrifice to God if they may kyll a great many with their owne sworde and their owne hande And to confesse the truthe in that they tell howe Sainct Augustine was first of that opinion that he denied the Emperoures power to be called vpon but when he sawe the heresie succeeded he changed his mynde euen so is it as true that I wrote But then had they to do with Donatistes that were more than heretikes
agaynst Gods holy worde Is this an argument M. St. that we abuse the worde of God bicause you playnly say this supremacie is directly agaynst Gods worde In déede I heare ye say it and saye it playnely and as playne as ye can saye it and that very often too and make it a sufficient cause saying For we playnly say But ye shoulde once at the least proue it as playnly withall and not so often tell vs that ye playnely say so and then we shoulde playnely sée and say also with you that ye vsed playne dealing as well as playne sayings The. 21. Diuision IN this diuision the Byshop procéedeth further with other testimonies out of the Apostles with the fathers expositions therevpon First where Sainct Peter â—… Ep. cap. 2. and Sainct Paule Rom. 13. do not licence but commaunde obedience vnto Princes Chrisostome stretcheth this obedience to euery kinde of Ecclesiasticall person so well as lay person And maketh the obiecte or matter wherein the Princes gouernement is exercised to be for the furthering and aduauncing of all vertuous actions the correcting and repressing of all vices and that not onely in all matters of the seconde Table betwéene man and man but of all matters in the first table betwéene God man so well as of the other To the confirmation wherof he citeth agayne S. Paule 2. Timoth. 2. stretching the duetie of Princes not onely to honestie of life but also to godlinesse Wherby Sainct Augustine meaneth the chiefe or proper worship seruice and religion of god Shewing at large by Sainct Augustine who reasoning on the thirtéenth to the Rom. confuteth the Donatistes héerein that Princes haue authoritie for the furtherance and setting foorth of true religion and suppressing of all heresies schismes and other ecclesiasticall abuses so well as the furtheraunce and setting foorth of ciuill iustice and the punishement of morall vices To this M. Stapletons answere is parted into foure First gathering a contraction of the Byshops allegations he graunteth vnto them and proueth that he and the Protestantes agrée héerevpon Secondly he pincheth and restrayneth his graunt and endeuoreth to proue contradiction in the Protestantes Thirdly he entreth into the answere of certayne wordes and testimonies by the Byshop alleaged Fourthly he replieth on the bishop with other allegations out of Chrysostome and theron frameth an argument on them for his Priestes superioritie The residue of his answere to S. Augustine he passeth ouer in wordes of course In the first sayth M. Stapleton Heere is nothing M. Horne that importeth your surmised supremacie The effect of your processe is Princes haue authoritie to mainteine praise and further the vertues of the first table and to suppresse the coÌ„trarie wherein onely consisteth the true religion and spiritual seruice that is due from man to God And that he hath authoritie herein not only in the vertues or vices bidden or forbidden in the second table of Gods coÌ„maundementes wherein are conteyned the duties that one maÌ„ oweth to another This is grauÌ„ted M. Horn both of the Catholikes and of the soberer sort of the Protestantes for Carolostadius Pelargus Struthius with the whole rable of th' Anabaptistes denie it that Princes haue authoritie both to further the obseruation and to punishe the breache of Gods coÌ„maundements as well in the first table as in the seconde that is as well in suche actions as concerne our duetie to God himselfe as in the duetie of one man to another This were meetely well sayde M. St. that héere agayne thus liberally ye grauÌ„t if it made any gret matter what ye graunted or denied The bishop you should soone agrée sauing for your instabilitie that after you haue made your large graunts ye still reuoke theÌ„ againe with some pelting distinction or qualification of them Your graunt is this Princes haue authoritie both to maynteine praise further the obseruation and to suppresse and punish the breach of Gods coÌ„mandements aswel in the first table as in the seconde that is aswell in suche actions as concerne our duty to God himselfe wherin onely consisteth the true religion and spirituall seruice as in the duetie of one man to another But thus wel haue Princes authoritie to mainteine further or to suppresse and punish in actions of the duety of one man to another conteyned in the second table that no suche actions be exempted from their authoritie but they ought to prayse maynteine and further al such actioÌ„s as are bidden and suppresse and punish al such actions as are forbidden and that to do with moste great care diligence and ouersight yea supreme authoritie also vnder God therin Ergo They may do so by like righte in all the actions of the first table concerning the true religion and spirituall seruice of god Or else this aswell that ye put in twyce togither for more confirmation commeth an ace behinde and is belike as muche to say as not as well the quite contrarie to aswell Thus if ye stande to your owne words that the Princes authoritie is aswell in the one as in the other they sufficiently importe all that we demaunde and are as muche as this The Prince is supreme gouernour not onely in all temporall â–ª but also in all ecclesiasticall causes And therefore where ye say that they be Anabaptistes that denie it ye conclude all the Papistes to be Anabaptistes for they denie it And your selfe are in the table also that haue puâ—…te oute this your Counterblast chiefly to ouerturne it Although when ye be pressed ye oftentimes graunte that whiche ouerturnes your selfe Neither dothe your distinction helpe â–ª ye to the which ye runne for succour euen to your enimies But all this is say you as not onely the Catholike wryters but Melancthon him selfe and Caluine doe expound Quod ad externam disciplinam attinet As muche as appertayneth to externall discipline And the Magistrate is the keeper and defender of bothe Tables saythe Melancthon but agayne he addeth Quod ad externos mores attinet As muche as belongeth to externall maners behauiour and demeanour Ye promise héere agayne to agrée with Caluine and Melancthon in all this whiche ye haue graunted that the Prince hathe authoritie as well in the firste Table as in the seconde this onely excepted as they excepte Quod ad externam disciplinam externos mores attinet So long as appertayneth to outwarde discipline and outwarde maners But al Ecclesiastical causes and orders for setting foorth religion are either outwarde disciplines or outwarde rites maners behauiours or demeanoures for as for inwarde actions or thoughtes the Prince meddleth not withall but God alone the minister onely pronounceth Gods threats or promises for them â–ª Ergo Euen by this your own distinction ye confesse once agayne the Princes supremacie in all eccl. causes Neither dothe your reason folowing helpe ye any thing at all For say you in the first Table are coÌ„teined many offences and breaches of the which
gouernment in Church causes as the Queenes Maiestie taketh vpon hir of dutie to belong to ciuill magistrates he concludeth ther vpoÌ„ by these two parts of the request so satisfied that they may and ought to take the same vpon them Which done he promiseth to enter into the other twaine to proue the same by the continuall practise of like gouernment in some one part of Christendome and by the generall Councels To this answereth M St. Hitherto ye haue not brought any one thing to the substaÌ„tial proufe of your purpose worth a good straw neither Scripture nor Doctor nor Emperour This is a short aunswere indéede as if Iacke Strawe had made it and not a student of diuinitie All is not worthe a strawe with you Such was the iudgement of Esops dunghill Cocke when he found the precious stone Haue ye done nothing master Stapleton but scraped strawes though you estéeme better of your owne doings wherevpon as it were an other Chaunticlere ye crâ—…we and crake so often yet set not so little by the doings of other men and thâ—…se that are farre your betters But what are the Bishops proues the lesse worth for this your strawish iudgement Your bolt M. St. is soone shotte but a raylers tongue is they say no slaunder Let others iudge that haue more iudgement what the Bishops proues amount vnto And let them iudge euen by this your Counterblast that ye haue blowne out agaynst these proues to ouerturne them Which had they bene as light as a strawe ye might haue easily done and neuer haue puffed vp such a stormie Counterblast But let them iudge what your Counterblast hath done and whether ye haue blown away so much as one straw bredth from the matter one proufe of al the Bishops proufes But least I should also be like to you I remit the iudgement of the whole to other yea in Gods name to any of your owne side that with any indifferencie will examine both Ye quarell further at the least to blemish the Bishop with suspition of heresie saying Among your foure Emperors by you named ye haue iugled in one that was a starke Heretike but as subtilly as yee thought ye had handled the matter ye haue not so crastily conueyde your galles but that you are espied Ye haue told vs of this often inough master Stapleton if that would helpe you though ye tolde it not so Iuglerlike as now although with as much bitternesse of gall as euer y Iugler or sorcerer SimoÌ„ Magus had With Heretike starke Heretike wretched Heretike c. But ye neuer tell how the Bishop cited him For were he Heretike or were he not as it is a question by Saint Augustines definition of an Heretike yet in that point that the Bishop cited him ye can proue him no Heretike But whatsoeuer he were the B. is clearely discharged to your owne shame and to all your doctors of Louaine where ye learne your good diuinitie And this is al that ye haue to say to the Bishops proues hitherto Now to that he promiseth to enter into the residue there is yet one thing that after all your raylings ye coÌ„mend him for Yet for one thing say you are ye here to be commended that now you woulde seeme to frame vs a certaine fixed state of the matter to be debated vpoÌ„ and to the which you would seeme to direct your proufes that ye will bring And therein you deale with vs better than hitherto ye haue done seeming to seke by dark generalities as it were corners to lusk lurk in Neither yet here walk ye so plainly and truly as you would seeme but in great darknesse with a sconce of dimme light that the readers should not haue the clere view sight of the right way ye should walk in whoÌ„ with this your darke sconce ye lead far awry For thus you frame vs the state of the questioÌ„ These are but wordes M. Stap. to spend time and fil paper Ye know best your owne practises Ye tell vs before hand the Bishop will do so Tell vs so when ye come to it It séemeth he mindeth it not euen by your owne confession prefixing a state of the matter to be debated vpoÌ„ to direct his proues vnto This is not the way of one that would luâ—…ke or lurke with darke sconces in corners nor the B hitherto hath gone thus to work it is one of your ordinarie slaunders his proues are euident name one that is not directed to the issue set betwene him M. Feck that fully proueth it not but that sconce of your own hath left no corner vnsought to â—…usk and lurke in and to lead the Reader about the bush as besides this your common place of impertinent matters will for the most part declare The. 27. Diuision THe B. hauing proued his issue by the two forsaid parts the scriptures the Doctors being entred into the other twaine the Councels the practise since the issue requireth the proofe of Any such gouernement as the Q maiestie now taketh vpon hir the B. first expresseth hir Maiesties gouernment theron according to the issue maketh his generall state to leuell his proues vnto the B. words are these The gouernement that the Q. Maiestie most iustly taketh vpon hir in ecclesiasticall causes is the guiding caring prouiding ordering and ayding the ecclesiasticall state within hir dominions to the furtherance maintenance and setting foorth of true religion vnitie and quietnesse of Christes Church ouerseeing visiting refourming restrayning amending and correcting all maner persons with all maner errors superstitions heresies schismes abuses offences contemptes and enormities in or about Christes religion whatsoeuer This same authoritie rule and gouernement was practised in the catholyke Church by the most Christian kings and Emperours approued confirmed commended by the best Councels both generall and Nationall The effect of M. Stapletons aunswere to this is all against the state of the question that the Bishop here setteth downe and is diuided chiefly into thrée pointes In the first he chalengeth the bishop to alter the state of the question in hande and setteth himselfe downe another state to the which he woulde haue the Bishop direct his prooues Secondly he trauayleth to show that the Bishop concealed two clauses of the statute that should chiefly haue expressed the state and what inconuenience may insue thereby Thirdly he alleageth the excuses of the Papists for refusing the othe In his first part being deducted into these two members to quarell at the Bishops state and to set vp his own for the former thus sayth M. Stapleton Here is a state framed of you M. Horne but fane square from the question in hande For the question is not nowe betwene M. Feckenham and you whether the Prince may visit reforme and correct all maner of persons for all maner of heresies and schismes and offences in Christian religion which perchance in some sense might somwhat be borne withall
and the childe after the sixth yeare of his gouernement beyng deade God placed a woman ouer the kingdome of Englande who also ought to haue bene furder from gouerning the Church than a childe for euen the kinde whiche at the laste displeased not in a childe so displeased the holy Ghost in a woman so farre as pertaineth to the gouernment of the Church that he in whom Christ spake doubted not to write I permitte not a woman to teach in the Church If you recken the yeares of King Edwardes raigne to inferre by the taking of him awaye so soone Gods misliking of his gouernement as you still shewe your malicious and ouer saucie constructions of gods iudgementes so ye bewray withall the foudnesse of your argumentes Did not Quéene Marie raigne a shorter while than hée and why note ye not the yeares of hir raigne also but this you ouerpasse in sylence and turne your argumente to hir kynde in that shee was a woman to argue Gods displeasure for the Princes gouernemente of the Churche but ye alleage nothyng that ye alledged not before oute of Sainte Paule I permitte not a vvoman to teache in the Churche neyther to vsurpe authoritie ouer the man but to bee in sylence Trow you Maister Saunders this is to bée stretched to gouernemente that no woman maye haue anye authoritie to gouerne a man if ye construe it thus howe will ye make your former saying good that the ryghte of a kingdome pertayneth no lesse to vvomen than to men alledging the examples of Debora Athalia and Alexandra and the lawe Num. 27. ye muste néedes therefore confesse that he speaketh there no otherwyse than â—…ée dothe 1. Corinthians 14. of women not simply but of suche women as are wiues Neyther of all authoritie but of authoritie ouer the husbande Neyther of all speaking exhorting or commaunding but of the publique ministerie of preaching And thus doth your owne Cardinall Caietane expounde it Docere supple publice c. neque dominari directe hoc respicit vxores to teach to wite publikly c. neither to rule this is directly spokeÌ„ of vviues And so Catharinus hic locus manifeste de coniugata intelligitur c. This place manifestlye is vnderstoode of a vvife in the same sence vvherein it is read in another place let vvomen holde their peace in the Churches for it is not permitted to them to speake but to bee subiecte euen as the lavve saith But by the vvaye vvee muste bevvare that iniurie be done to none Although by no meanes it be the office of anye vvoman to teache notvvythstanding if anye vvoman bee endued vvith singular grace of God for God is free from all lavve that coulde bee able to doe these thyngs vvhen it shoulde bee thought meete shee vvere not to be hindred chiefelye hauing the gifte of prophecie but it vvere lavvfull for hir to speake freelye As is read of Olda and Debora that iudged the people of Israell as is apparant in the booke of the iudges Doth not the Apostle also warne that the former holde his peace if it be reuealed to another For we know that that glorious and one of the most deere spoâ—…ses of Christ Saint Katherine of Senes taught in times paâ—…e and hath made sermons yea euen in the publique consistoâ—…e of the Pope although she toke not vpon hir these things but with good leaue of Christs owne vicaâ—… who best knewe in 〈◊〉 to be the true spirite of God and the feruencie of charitie to be giuen hir to edifie the Churche in those troublous tymes when the scisme raigned c. Thus farre and furder saith this Popishe Bishop whereby it appereth that the Papists theÌ„ selues vnderstande not this sentence of Saint Paule for a simple debarre to all women no not to preache in the open Churche if neede so required so that she haue the Popes leaue And can the Pope giue leaue in a time of scisme to maintaine his factioÌ„ when two or thrée Popes striue for the triple diademe and to Saint hir for hir labour And shall it not be lawfull for a Christian Quéene not attempting hir selfe to preache to set forth by the authoritie due to all princes suche lawes whereby gods truth maye be preached by those that are lawfully called therevnto may not a Quéenâ—… by vertue of hir royall office in the open assemblye of hir owne subiects speake exhort persuade and commaunde hir people being also the Church of Christ to abolish al errors and receiue the onely truth of God was it lawfull for the Empresse Irene to publishe hir decrees in the Churche for the erecting of Images against the worde of God and is it not lawfull for the Quéenes Maiestie by publique decrées to pull them downe and forbid the worship of them according to gods worde this sentence therefore euen by theyr owne witnesse is but wrested to debarre a womans gouernment of the Church But Maister Saunders procéeding on his argument for Quéene Marie saith To the same purpose it came that the greate goodnesse of God called such a Queene to the rule of the kingdome that both sawe this selfe same thing and confessed it For Queene Marie not onely toke not this proude title of the head of the Church but also when she was admonished of others â–ª that she would be like hir father she brought forth most weightie reasons why she ought not to do it VVhervpon she chiefely exhorting therto that title was omitted and the proper honour restored to the successors of Peter If the title as ye saye M. Saunders be proude Quéene Marie had done wel to leaue it but your Pope not ouer wel to take it howbeit this title as King Henry and King Edwarde before toke it was no proude title but a title of their charge and duetie And therefore she ought to haue retained it nor did well in leauing it and rendring it to a foraigne prelate that had nought to do therwith And in whoÌ„ in deede it is both a proude and an Antichristian title both spoyling Christian Princes of their principall office in their particular estates and also bereauing Christ of his glory ouer his vniuersall Churche Neither can he claime it as successor of Peter Peter neuer hauing the possessioÌ„ of it And what waightie reasons soeuer she persuaded hir selfe withall to shake it off she taking the kingdome on hir the waight and burden lay still on hir charge before god And if your reason be ought of the effect and sequele of this hir refusall into what extréeme miserie was this Realme broughte in so shorte a time by the Legates spoyling by the Prelats burning by the Italians pilling by the FrenchmeÌ„s winning by the Spaniardes oppressing and by gods diuine Iustice scourging the Realme with strange diseases droughts waters dearthes to conclude the Quéene hir selfe and crowne impouerished all the Realme in daunger of perpetuall thraldome and vtter vndoyng if God of his infinite mercie
all my force that fayth and Churche that I finde in déede receyued from the Apostles and will extirpate with all my force that faith and Churche that is degenerate from it What if the King saye thus master Saunders trowe you the Bishop hearing this whiche notwithstanding is but righte and reason and the King euen of the Bishop enforced thereto will he accepte the offer No master Saundess the Bishoppe will crie oute and so will you that the matter shall not goe thus and that the King may not doe this howsoeuer it stande him vpon But you will appeale from him vnto your selues as Iudges Whiche when the King shall heare will 〈◊〉 not iudge this a madde appeale and suspecte your cause the worsse and thinke that you playnely woulde abuse him And so to kéepe his promise made vnto you turne his force iustly agaynst you Haue you not heere made a rodde for your owne tayle if the Prince be but indifferent and not too muche either of simplicitie or dastardie abused by you And thus by the righteous iudgement of God your owne tyrannie is the cause of your owne plague and that by the seife 〈◊〉 meanes whereby you woulde vniustly haue hampered the Prince he hathe iustly hampered you I pray God all Christian Princes woulde once take these iuste occasions to examine well but euen those dueties and tyties that you put vnto them and woulde but minister iustice to you euen as you haâ—… forced them thereto And thus muche M. Saunders for your presupposed examples betwéene these Kings and Bishops â–ª Let vs nowe beholde howe you procéede vpon them How therfore said the Lord in Daniel kingdome and power and the mighte of kingdome that is vnder all the heauen shall be giuen to the people of the Saincts of the Hyest VVhose kingdome is an euerlasting kingdome and all Kings or powers shal serue and obey him Howe saide the Lorde as it is in Esay vnto his Churche The sonnes of straungers shall buylde thy walles and the Kinges of them shal minister vnto thee and their sonnes that haue broughte thee lowe shal come and bowe them selues to thee and all those that spake euill of thee shall worshippe the steppes of thy feete Howe shall the worde of Christe be true wherein hee sayde too â–ª his Disciples hee that despyseth you despyseth mee or that that hee sayde too Peter Thou arte Peter and vppon thys Rocke wyll I buylde â–ª my Churche and the gaâ—… of Hell shall not preuayle agaynst it You are a waster Master Saunders to make suche lauishe of youre prooues so impertinently or rather you are wrester too applye them so falsely For the Kyng that héere refuseth the Bishoppes conditions offereth hym selfe moste freely too all obedience that is héere mentioned in offering himselfe to acknowledge the Christian saythe As for the Lordes sentence in Daniel â–ª prophecying of the immortal glorie that after the iudgemeÌ„t of Christ shal be giuen to the Saintes of the most highest and of the obedieÌ„ce to Christes euerlasting kingdome these are other matters are so wrested of you to the state of this lyfe that it will breede you some suspition of being a Millenarie heretike except you say you ment it spiritually But then it toucheth not the kings polytike estate But howsoeuer you meane it you doe great iniurie to kings and shew no lesse arrogancie in your selues to applie that vnto you that is spoken of the Saincts of the highest This kingdom and power that he speaketh of is theirs yea kings so well as any other be partakers of it and you claime it allonly to your Priestly and Bishoply power whereas it is rather to be doubted that ye shall haue no parts at all therof But your portion in the kingdome of proude Lucifer that not onely apply this to your selues but also the glorie and kingdome due to Christe of the obedience to whiche Daniell playnely speaketh and you wrest it to the obedience of your Bishoppes As for this obedience to Christe the king did offer to yelde it in offering to acknowledge the Christian fayth But your Bishop was not content therewith And you to helpe your bishop and to dismay the king make the bishops demaunde suche a necessarie thing that you aske howe dyd the Lorde speake in Daniell except kinges should offer to renounce their kingdomes vnto priestes What master Saunders waxe you so sawcie with God to argue him of a lye but the saying of God is true and you are lyers and the king may still keepe his kingdome from your Clutches Your seconde texte is a couple of textes out of Esay but no lesse wrested than the other to make Princes stoupe to Prelates and kisse the grounde they goe vpon to giue Bishops Kings treâ—…ures and dominions and make kings to waite on Priestes In déeâ—…e on this wife your Pope did proudly wrest the Scripture when he troad on the Emperors necke when he turned downe hiâ—… Disdeme with his foote when he made him daunce attendance and blowe his nailes at his gate when he made him hold his â—…lurrop wheÌ„ he made him leade his horse when he made him kisse hys gowtie I should say his golden toa But this was more than Neroes pride is most farre from gods liking from Christs humilitie from the Apostles steppes and cleane from the Prophetes meaning The Prophet speaketh of much honor and riches to be giuen but to whom tibi o thee Who was this the Priest or Bishope haue you any moe shée Bishops or Pope Ioanes yet M. Saunders for the wordes of the Prophet begin thus Surge splendida esto I trow you will not saye this was a Bishop No M. Saunders it was euen the wife of Christ the Church of God whome he calleth Sion that the Prophet speaketh vnto These texts therfore being spoken to the Churche that is to all the faithfull people of whom kings themselues are part so well as any other it is malapartly dâ—…ne of you Maister Saunders to ascribe it only to your Bishops Howbeit this arrogating the name of the Church to your selues is not so saâ—…cis but your missunderstanding of this description in a literall sense being spoken of a mysticall estate is no lesse grosse than full of errors The whole chapter hath many suche proâ—…ises of shyning of glory of glittering of riches of waters of Camels of coltes of golde of frank insence of shepe of ramines of doâ—…es of ships of buildings of walles of gates of beeches of Pines of boxe of sucking of milke of brasse of stones of Iron of light of the Sunne of the Moone of plantes of trées such other worldly things whereby be discribeth the beautie and florishing estate of the Charche according to the manner of the Hebrewes phrases and the capacitie of the Iewes that were moued by suche worldly things Nowe commeth Maister Saunders and picketh me out two sentences and sets them togither being in the text a sunder That
But the pastors in the Church are as the minde is in the body of man as S. Gregorie Nissene hath noted I answere â–ª First this is but a similitude and therefore conâ—…inceth nothing howe ofte soeuer you alleage it We graunt that the Pastors are as it were the mynde of the Churche in the reasoning and discussing the fayth of Christ the word of God the sacraments and mysteries of Christes Church But againe in the maintenance and setting forth in the ouersight and publike direction in the punishement and correction of the trespasses the Prince is the minde the reason and the head also and a pastor in gods Church too And therefore this belongs not onely to the Bishops But be it the Prince be not the minde and reason whose place is in the head Were the King but as the hart or as the will whose place is in the harte yet as the minde dothe but eyther deuise by inuention or discerne by iudgement or remember by memorie and not assent or dissent like or mislike choose or refuse for that belongeth to the will so the spirituall pastor may deuise holsome remedies or remember the Prince of them or discerne in controuersies betwéen this and that which we denie not But the refusall or receiuing the liking or misliking the bidding or forbidding that lyes in the facultie of the Prince Not that the Prince hath facultie to will euery thing no more than the head may deuise euery thing for both ought to will and deuise onely good things â–ª but that the authoritie to put them in executioÌ„ and willing the members to do them as it procéedes principally next to God from y wil so the setting forth of godly ReligioÌ„ taught by the persuasioÌ„ of the pastor as the reason in the head procéedes principally next to God from the Prince as the will in the hart But nowe as M. Saunders hath for stalled the head for the Priest so if he will not relent the harte to the Prince yet I trust he will be thus good vnto him to compare him at the least to some principall member in the body as to the lightes the lunges the lyuer c. If nowe the lightes the lunges or the liuer be infected by whose infection diuerse others parts of the body would become also infected will the head therefore will the minde or reason byd cut them off and hurâ—…e theÌ„ out of the bodie least they infect the other members were it not an vnreasonable reason that would reason thus to haue those rotten meÌ„bers cut off froÌ„ the body of which remaining it may be feared least they should infect the other members when the cutting them awaye straight killeth all the members both head and hart and all and thus you sée M. Saunders if we shal reason by similitudes howe they make more for vs than for you But similitudes may delight or lighten a matter they are not of force to vrge it But M. Saunders will presse it with stronger arguments Besides this S. Paule by name doth teach that power is giuen to the Churche ouer the goods ouer the bodily things of the faithfull For he persuadeth the Corinthians that if they will nedes go to law they should go to lawe before Christians and not before Ethnikes And bicause it mought be said there were no publike Magistrates or iudges ordayned among the Christians he warneth the faithfull that they should appoynt iudges among themselues and if perhaps there were not wisemen in that kind which notwithstanding was not likely yet at the least they should rather appoint contemptible persons thaÌ„ to go to law before the infidels This place is alleaged before and there is aunswered The drift of it here consistes on this argument The Church hath power ouer the goods and bodyly things of the faithfull But the Pastors are the Church Ergo the pastors haue power ouer the goods and bodily things of the faithfull To the Maior I answere the Churche hath power but a limited power Such power as confoundeth not or taketh away the goods or bodily things of any of the faithfull which are members of the Church Such power as is competent to euery member of the Church to possesse to vse and dispose his owne goods and bodily things according to his priuate or publike calling To the Minor I denie it the pastors are not the Churche but members of the Church and haue power onely ouer such goods and bodily things as belong to theÌ„ And yet in that power that they haue of the proprietie of their own goods they may so little spoyle the Prince of his goods or bodily things that they holde them from the Prince and haue by him the peaceable possession of them For all that power vnder God is from the Prince to theÌ„ to al other Neither the Bishops nor any in the Church nor all the Church together hath power to take the Princes goods or his bodyly things froÌ„ him But M. SauÌ„ders to enforce his argument citeth the sayof S. Paule 1. Cor. 6. In that he would haue Christians go to law if they will nedes go to law before Christians and not before Ethnikes Why M. Saunders are Christian Princes and faithfull Magistrates no better with you than Ethnikes and are you Priestes onely Christians for else howe can you apply this to the present purpose that Priests should haue power ouer the goods of the faithfull that the faithfull should run for decision of their coÌ„trouersies to the Priests not to the Princes that the Bishops may iudge of the Princes goods aod kingdome and giue it away to another trow you this was the meaning of S Paule But you excuse the matter with this that they had then no Christian Magistrates As though therfore he had bidden such lawe matters to be determined by their pastors No M. Saund. this was neither the words nor the meaning of him For he knewe the pastors had another power and inough to do therin although they busied not theÌ„selues in the law matters that fel out among the ChristiaÌ„s Not that s. Paule thought they might haue no power of any bodily things nor proprietie of temporall goods or that he thought they mighte in no case be peacemakers in suche brabling matters but that Saint Paule woulde haue the pleadyng and decision of suche things to be rather belonging ordinaryly to some faithfull and honest manne chosen among them selues than to runne to heathen Iudges Which words among themselues do as it were declare that he ment such as was of their owne calling and not their â—…astor â–ª Which is more euident in that he saith is there no wise man among you what not one that can iudge betwene brother and brother so that he speaketh in generall and not onely of the pastor And where he saith chose a contemptible person Except ye will make the pastor contemptible â–ª it argueth he ment not this iudge should
publike mynisterie of Iesu christ For vvhatsoeuer is of Christe giuen in common to the Christian common vveale is giuen by them that exercise the Legacie for Christe and are Stevvards of his mysteries Your argument is this VVhatsoeuer is giuen in common of Christ to his Church he giues it by the Pastors But povver to make Magistrates and Iudges is giuen in coÌ„mon of Christ to his Church Ergo it is giuen by his Pastors But no man can passe more right to an other than hee hath himselfe The Pastors passe this right and povver of being Magistrates and Iudges in secular matters to another Ergo the Pastors haue right and power of being Magistrates and iudge themselues in secular matters Al these parts coÌ„clusions of these reasons I vtterly deny Master Saunders First the 〈◊〉 is fall 〈◊〉 â—…nsample Christe giues temporall peace in common to his Churche he giue â–ª plentie of fruites and seasonable weather in common to his Churche he giues health and strength of bodie in common to his Church he giues good Magistrates Kings and Princes in coÌ„mon to his Church he giues good lawes natural ciuill and municipall in common to his Churche all these are povvers giueÌ„ of Christ in coÌ„mon to the ChristiaÌ„ common vveale so well as to any other common vveale not Christian but they are not giuen by the ministerie of the spirituall Pastors The maior therefore is not true Secondly the minor is also false that Christ giueth power to his Church to make Magistrates and Iudges ouer secular matters To some Churches indéed he hath giuen this power and dothe giue it where they orderly doe choose their owne Magistrate But this can not be spoken of the Church indefinitely For the Church in most places thereof hath not the choice of Princes but God either by ordinarie succession or by extraordinarie means placeth them ouer the Church and those Princes place the Iudges Thirdly by the Church is not meÌ„t either the ecclesiastical power or the Pastors that haue that povver For the povver is but Gods gift for the Churches vse and benefite and the Pastors are but parts and members of the Church Fourthly this is false also that they can not passe a right to another that they themselues haue not For euen in the dispensation of their mysteries we maye receiue faythe and grace by their ministerie and yet they be gracelesse and haue no faith themselues And in the solemnization of Matrimonie although the Pastor haue no right to the bryde yet he transferreth the hauing of hir froÌ„ hir friends to the brydegrome so may they be Ministers in the intronizing a Prince passing a power froÌ„ God to him which yet theÌ„selues haue not except you will make them Kings And thus all your rules are false and holde not besides that they be all wrested and cleane from the sense of the sentence cited and therefore no good argument can be framed on them that that can rightly conclude the present purpose But nowe Master Saunders will applye this better and here in the margine he setteth downe in great letters Nota Note to sturre vp the Readers attention to note his application But novve saith he if that nevve Iudges must be made of the Churche rather than vve shoulde goe to lavve in secular causes before the Infidels are not nevve Kings also rather to be made of the Churche than that vve shoulde be compelled to pleade our causes before hereticall and scismatical Kings Nowe you beginne handsomely to frame your argument to your purpose for al this while you did but dallie But if the Reader note this matter as you require him to doe as he shal finde no consequence in your argument so shal he finde rancke treason in your conclusion If the argument were good then bycause the Church in Saint Paules time might choose among themselues arbiters to iudge and take vp their petite matters therefore they might haue chosen nevv Kings also to gouerne them But this coulde they not haue done without treason and rebellion therefore this argument is false Is there no difference Master Saunders betwéene the choosing of an vmpier or an arbiter chosen betwéene two parties of their owne voluntarie to iudge and descide their priuate controuersie and the choosing of a supreme publike Magistrate to gouerne their whole estate Who séeth not that this they might in no wise doe The other they might doe well inoughe And so may any of vs doe also to auoyd the charges and troubles of the lawe although we haue Christian Princes and faithfull Iudges too neither troubling those estates nor our selues and saue our money in our purses and better nourishe charitie in not going to lawe but taking vp the matter at home among our neyghbours quietly May we therefore subtracte our selues from the Iudgement Seate of the publike Magistrate when we are called or enforced by lawe thereto and whye mighte we not if we might choose a newe King when we mislyked the olde No Master Saunders this is further from Saint Paules meaning than was the other Saint Paule giues not the Corinths leaue nor power to erecte vp among them selues a publike Magistrate to flée vnto in their contentions vtterly to forsake the iudgement seates of the heathen Iudges and Princes that did gouerne them Saint Paule speakes of their owne voluntarie taking vp of matters by some indifferent man among them to be chosen as Iudge in this or that brawle betwéene them and woulde not haue them of their owne selfe will in matters that might be well taken vp among themselues to runne to Lawe before heathen Magistrates Wherein although he disalow the disorderly contention of the one yet he disaloweth not withall the orderly authoritie of the other which he confesseth to be giuen of God and he exhorteth all subiectes to obey and that for conscience sake euen the gouernement of the heathen Princes notwithstanding they were Christians that were subiectes Whereas if he had ment otherwise he hadde not onely contraryed himselfe but confirmed the sclaunder of the heathen people that the Christians were Rebelles to their estates And he might haue bene accused of sedition as styrring the people to make nevve Magistrates whiche for them being subiectes was aboue their power to doe And although this crime was layde to Saint Paules charge of sowing sedition yet could they neuer iustly proue it on him his doings and writings testifyed the contrarie with what care he labored to kepe the Christians in obedience Who otherwise might here vpon haue had great occasion of choosing nevve Princes pretending they were Christians and made frée by Christe and therefore ought not haue suffered themselues to liue in the heathen Princes bondage Which fréedome of Christian libertie least they should haue thus abused to carnall licenciousnesse and disturbed the order and quietnesse of their estate Saint Paule so often and so earnestly exhorteth them vnto obedience Neither they did so euer