Selected quad for the lemma: saint_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
saint_n	bishop_n	church_n	presbyter_n	1,570	5	10.2756	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A45214	A defence of the humble remonstrance, against the frivolous and false exceptions of Smectymnvvs wherein the right of leiturgie and episcopacie is clearly vindicated from the vaine cavils, and challenges of the answerers / by the author of the said humble remonstrance ; seconded (in way of appendance) with the judgement of the famous divine of the Palatinate, D. Abrahamvs Scvltetvs, late professor of divinitie in the University of Heidelberg, concerning the divine right of episcopacie, and the no-right of layeldership ; faithfully translated out of his Latine.	Hall, Joseph, 1574-1656.; Scultetus, Abraham, 1566-1624. Determination of the question, concerning the divine right of episcopacie.	1641 (1641)	Wing H378; ESTC R9524	72,886	191

exoticall positions of unsound teachers which it selfe hath in terminis condemned and say as you are not ashamed to do We thank God we are none of you we forgive you and pray for your repentance Your Quaeres wherein I see you trust much are made up of nothing but spight and slander If I answere you with questions shorter then your own and more charitable you will excuse mee In answer then to your first I ask Who ever held the Lordships of Bishops to stand by divine right If no body whether hee that intimates it doth not falsifie and slander Why is it a greater fault in one of our Doctors to hold the Lords day to stand Iure bumano then it was in Master Calvin I aske whether it were any other then K. Iames himselfe of blessed memory that said No Bishop no King and if it were he whether that wise King did not meane to prejudice his own authoritie Whether since it hath beene proved that Bishops are of more then meerely humane Ordinance and have so long continued in the Christian Church to the great good of Church and State it be not most fit to establish them for ever and to avoid all dangerous motions of innovation Whether these answerers have the wit or grace to understand the true meaning of the Ius Divinum of Episcopacie or if they did whether they could possibly be so absurd as to raise so sensless and inconsequent inferences upon it Whether there bee any question at all in the fifth question since the Remonstrant himselfe hath so fully cleered this point professing to hold Episcopacie to bee of Apostolicall and in that right Divine Institution Whether Master Beza have not heard foundly of his distinction of the three kinds of Episcopacie in the full and learned answere of Saravia and whether hee might not have beene better advised then in that conceit of his to crosse all reverend antiquity and whether the Painter that drest up his Picture after the fancy of every passenger doe not more fitly resemble those that frame their discipline according to the humour of their people varying their projects every day then those which hold them constantly to the only ancient and Apostolicall forme Whether it were not fit that wee also should speake as the ancient Fathers did according to the language of their times and whether those Fathers could not better understand and interpret their owne meaning in the title of Episcopacie then these partiall and not over-judicious answerers and whether they have not cleerely explicated themselves in their writings to have spoken properly and plainly to the sense now enforced Whether Presbyters can with out sin arrogate unto themselves the exercise of the power of publique Church government where Bishops are set over them to rule and order the affaires both of them and the Church and whether our Saviour when he gave to Peter the promisse of the Keyes did therein intend to give it in respect of the power of publike jurisdiction to any other save the Apostles and their Successours the Bishops and whether ever any Father or Doctour of the Church till this present age held that Presbyters were the Successours to the Apostles and not to the seventy Disciples rather Whether ever any Bishops assumed to themselves power Temporall to bee Barons and to sit in Parliament as Iudges and in Court of Star-chamber c. or whether they bee not called by his Majesties writ and royall authority to these services and whether the spirituall power which they exercise in ordaining silencing c. bee any other then was by the Apostles delegated to the first Bishops of the Church constantly exercised by their holy successors in all ages especially by Cyprian Ambrose Augustine and the rest of that sacred order men which had as little to do with Antichrist as our answerers have with charity Whether the answerers have not just cause to be ashamed of patronizing a noted Heretick Aerius in that for which hee was censured of the ancient Saints and Fathers of the Church and whether the whole Church of Christ ever since his time till this age have not abandoned those very errours concerning the equality of Bishops and Presbyters which they now presume to maintain Whether the great Apostacy of the Church of Rome do or did consist in maintayning the order of government set by the Apostles themselves and whether all the Churches in the whole Christian World even those that are professedly opposite to the Church of Rome doe let in Antichrist by the doore of their Discipline since they all maintain Episcopacie no lesse constantly then Rome it selfe Whether if Episcopacie be through the munificence of good Princes honoured with a title of dignity and largnesse of revenues it ought to be ere the more declined and whether themselves if they did no hope to carry some sway in the Presbytery would be so eager in crying up that government and whether if there were not ● maintenance annexed they would not hid themselves and jeopard their eares rathe● then mancipate themselves to the charge o● souls Whether there bee no other apparen● causes to be given for the increase of Poper● and superstition in the Kingdome beside● Episcopacie which hath laboured strongly to oppose it and whether the multitudes of Sects and professed slovenlynesse in Gods service in too many have not bin guilty of the increase of profanesse amongst us Why should England one of the most famous Churches of Christendome seperate it selfe from that forme of government which all Churches through the whole Christian World have ever observed and do constantly and uniformely observe and maintain and why should not rather other less noble Churches conform to that universall government which all other Christians besides do gladly submit unto Why should the name of Bishops which hath beene for this 1600. yeers appropriated in a plain contradistinction to the governours of the Church come now to be communicated to Presbyters which never did all this while so much as pretend to it and if in ancient times they should have done it could not have escaped a most severe censure And shortly whether if wee will allow you to bee Bishops all will not bee well Whether since both God hath set such a government in his Church as Episcopacie and the Lawes of this Land have firmly established it it can bee lawfull for you to deny your subjection unto it and whether it were not most lawfull and just to punish your presumption and disobedience in framing so factious a question And thus I hope you have a sufficient answere to your bold and unjust demands and to those vain cavills which you have raised against the humble Remonstrance God give you Wisdome to see the Truth and Grace to follow it Amen To the Poscript THe best beauty that you could have added to your discourse brethren had been honesty and truth both in your allegations of Testimonies and inferences of argumentation In both which

have not yet attained the cognizance of their Purification Baptisme the other of those which are now come on so farre as to professe the Christian Religion in this latter ranke are appointed some which do inquire into the lives and manners of those that come that they may be a meanes to keepe off such Candidates of Religion as doe carry themselves amisse from their Assemblies And the rest that are like themselves they may gladly receive In which passage it is most evident that Origen speakes of those which are newly admitted into the Church who by reason of their late knowledge and acquaintance with those which they left behinde them in Pagan superstition might bee fit Monitours to knowe and notifie the condition of such Candidates as did offer to come into the Church Now these trusty Answerers would make the World believe that this is spoken of some Sage Elders that were to governe the Church and to deceive the Reader unfaithfully turne the words Nonnulli Praepositi sunt as if they were some ruling Elders indeed Whereas the word signifies and intends onely a designation of such Novices as were well approved to an Office of Monitorship concerning those which would professe to bee Converts And now to return your owne words wee would gladly knowe whether these were not as it were Lay Elders As for those other testimonies which you have drawne hither out of Augustine Optatus and the Letters of Fortis and Purpurius out of Baronius I could if neede were double your files in this kinde might that doe you any service I could tell you out of the acts of the Purgation of Foelix and Caecilianus of Episcopi Presbyteri Diaconi Seniores out of the Synodal Epistle of the Cabarsussitan councell as mentioned by Saint Augustine in his Enarration upon the Psalmes Necesse nos fuerat Primiani causam Seniorum literis ejusdem Ecclesiae postulantibus audire atque discutere which is a more pregnant place then any you have brought and could reckon You up yet more out of the Code of the African Canons Can. 91. Out of Gregory Turonensis who speaking of the Bishop of Marselles brings him in to say Nihil per me feci c. I did nothing of my selfe but that which was commaunded me à Dominis nostris Senioribus Out of Gregory the great in his Epistles more then once I could weary you with supply of such authorities But Brethren I shal sadly tel you that you do herein nothing but abuse your Reader with a colourable pretence For all those places you alleage are nothing at all to the purpose in hand VVho can make question but that Carthage and Hippo and other African Cities had old and grave men in them VVho can doubt that they had Magistrates and men in authority Such as we stil are wont out of the ancient appellation to style Aldermen Who can doubt that they did in all great occasions of the Church take the advise and assistance of these prime men But wil it hence follow that in the sense you contend for they had a Setled Lay Presbytery Was their Church ere the more according to your construction governed by Pastors Elders Deacons That these forecited were such as we have intimated is most evident in the Affrican Canons Can 100 they are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the old men And in the 91 Canon we find as a Commentary upon this point Debere unumquemque nostrum in civitate sua convenire Donatistarum Praepositos aut adjungere sibi vicinum Collegam ut pariter eos in singulis quibusque Civitatibus per Magistratus vel Seniores locorum conveniant That is That every one of us should in our own Cities meet with the chiefe Governours of the Donatists and take with him some neighbour as his Colleague or Assistant that they together may give them a meeting by the Magistrates or Elders of the places But you will say there were those which were called Seniores Ecclesiastici ecclesiasticall Elders also True there were such Iustellus confesses so much and learned Isaacus Causabonus whose manuscript notes I have seene and his worthy Sonne Mericus Causabonus in his notes upon Optatus yield no lesse but these they do truly say were but as our Church-wardens men that were trusted with the utensils stock and outward affairs of the Church or as I may more fully compare them our vestry-men who are commonly and of old designed under the name of the eight men or twelve men in every great parish as I am sure it is in the Western parts to order the businesses of Seats and rates and such like externall occasions now that those places which you have cited intend no other Elders then these you shall he convinced out of your own testimonies The place which you bring out of Saint Austen cōtra Cresconium Grāmaticum runs thus Omnes vos c. All you Bishops Presbyters Deacons and Elders do know c. where you see plainly that the Elders which hee means are below Deacons and so you shall find them wheresoever they are mentioned now those that you contend for are by your own claime in a Key above them Optatus whom you cite is cleer against your sense whiles he makes only quatuor genera capitum only four sorts of mē in the Church Bishops Presbyters Deacons the faithful Laity And in his first book against Parmenian Quid commemorē Laicos c. he reckons up meer Laicks Ministers Deacons Presbyteros secundo sacerdotio constitutos Presbyters in the second degree of Priesthood principes omnium Episcopos and the chiefe of all Bishops Shortly brethren that there were in the Church of old ruling Elders which were in a rank above Deacōs and had together with the pastors a setled power of governmēt in the Church it is an opinion no lesse new then unjustifiable I do here solemnly professe that if any one such instance can be brought I wil renoūce Episcopacie for ever Do not thē against the light of your own knowledge set a face on proofs of those things which never were but give glory to God in yielding to so undoubted and cleer a truth SECT XVI XVII.XVIII THe rest that remaines is but mere Declamation not worthy of any answere but contempt and silence It is most true that the religious Bishops of all times have strongly upheld the truth of God against Satan and his Antichrist What can you say to this You tell mee of some irreligious ones that have as strongly upheld Satan and his Antichrist against the truth of GOD What is this to the calling can not I tell you of some wicked and irreligious Presbyters shall the function it selfe therefore suffer You tel us What an unpreaching Bishop once said of a Preacher I challeng you to shew any unpreaching Bishop in the Church of England this day it is your slander this not their just Epithete the scandalls of our inferiour Ministers I professe I