Selected quad for the lemma: saint_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
saint_n	believe_v	church_n	creed_n	1,645	5	10.6358	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A29086	The victory of truth for the peace of the Church to the king of Great Britain to invite him to embrace the Roman-Catholick faith / by Monsieur de la Militiere, counsellour in ordinary to the King of France ; with an answer thereunto, written by the right reverend John Bramhall, D.D. and Lord Bishop of London-Derry.	La Milletière, Théophile Brachet, sieur de, ca. 1596-1665.; Bramhall, John, 1594-1663.	1653 (1653)	Wing B4097A; ESTC R34379	76,867	210

proper value But a friend or child will more esteem the Picture of a Benefactor or Ancestor for its relation The respect of the one is terminated in the Picture that of the other is radicated in the exemplar Yet still an Image is but an Image and the kinds of respect must not be confounded The respect given to an Image must be respect proper for an Im●…ge not Courtship not Worship not Adoration More respect is due to the person of the meanest beggar than to all the Images of Christ and his Apostles and a 1000. Primitive Saints or Progenitors Hitherto there is either no difference nor peril either of Idolatry or Superstition Wherein then did consist this guilt of Idolatry contracted by the Roman Church I am willing for the present to pass by the private abuses of particular persons which seem to me no otherwise chargeable upon the whole Church than for Connivence As the making Images to counterfeit tears and words and gestures and complements for advantage to induce silly people to believe that there was something of divinity in them and the multitude of fictitious Relicks and supposititious Saints which credulity first introduced and since covetousness hath nourished I take no notice now of those remote suspitions or suppositions of the possibility of want of intention either in the Priest that consecrates the Sacrament or in him that Baptized or in the Bishop that ordained him or in any one through the whole line of succession in all which cases according to your own principles you give divine worship to corporeal Elements which is at least material Idolatry I will not stand now to examine the truth of your distinctions of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yet you know well enough that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is no religious worship and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is coin lately minted that will not pass for current in the Catholick Church Whilst your common people understand not these distinctions of degrees of honour what holds them from falling downright into Idolatry Neither do I urge how you have distributed the Patronage of particular Countries the Cure of several Diseases the protection of all distinct professions of men and all kinds of Creatures among the Saints just as the Heathen did among their Tutelary Gods nor how little warrant you have for this practice from experience nor lastly how you build more Churches erect more Altars offer more presents pour out more prayers make more vows perform more offices to the Mother than to the Son Yet though we should hold our peace methinks you should ponder these things seriously and either for your own satisfaction or ours take away such unnecessary occasions of scandal and dis-union But I cannot omit that the Council of Trent is not contented to enjoyn the Adoration of Christ in the Sacrament which we never deny but of the Sacrament it self that is according to the common current of your Schoolmen the A●…cidents or Species of Bread and Wine because it contains Christ. Why do they not adde upon the same grounds that the pix is to be adored with divine worship because it contains the Sacrament Divine honour is not due to the very Humanity of Christ as it is abstracted from the Deity but to the whole person Deity and Humanity hypostatically united Neither the Grace of Union nor the Grace of Unction can conferr more upon the Humanity than the Humanity is capable of There is no such Union between the Deity and the Sacrament neither immediately nor yet mediately mediante corpor Neither do you ordinarily ascribe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or divine worship to a Crucifix or to the Image of Christ indeed not Terminatively but trans●…untly so as not to rest in the Image or Crucifix but to pass to the exemplar or person crucified But why a piece of Wood should be made partaker of divine honours even in 〈◊〉 or in be passage passe●…h my unde●…nding Th●… Heathens ●…ted not the same 〈◊〉 for all their gross Idolatry Let them plead for themselves Non ego c. I do not worship that stone which I see but I serve him whom I do not see Lastly whilst you are pleased to use them I may not forget those strange insolent forms of prayer contained in your books even ultimate prayers if we take the words as they sound directed to the Creatures that they would protect you at the hour of death and deliver you from the Devil and confer spiritual graces upon you and admit you into Heaven precibus meritisque by their prayers and merits You know what Merit signifies in your language a Condignity or at least a Congruity of desert The exposition of your Doctors is that they should do all this for you by their pra●…ers as improper a form of speech as if a Suppliant intending onely to move an ordinary Courtier to mediate for him unto the King should fall down upon his knees before the Courtier and beseech him to make him an Earl or a Knight or to bestow such an Office or such a Pardon upon him or to do some other Grace for him properly belonging to the Prerogative Royal. How agrees this with the words Precibus meri●…que A beggar doth not deserve an Alms by asking it This is a snare to ignorant persons who take the words to signifie as they sound And it is to be feared do commit downright Idolatry by their Pastors faults who prescribe such improper forms unto them Concerning Tyrannie which makes up the arrear of the first supposed Maxim We do not accuse the Roman Church of Tyrannie but the Roman Court If either the unjust usurpation o●… Sovereign power or the extending thereof to the destruction of the Laws and Canons of the Church yea even to give a Non obstante either to the Institution of Christ or at least to the uniform practice of the Primitive Ages or to them both If the swallowing up of all Ecclesiastical Jurisd●…ction and the arrogating of a supercivil power paramount If the causing of poor people to trot to Rome from all the Quarters of Europe to wast their livelyhoods there If the trampling upon Emperours and the disciplining of Monarchs be Tyrannical either the Court of Rome hath been Tyrannical or there never was Tyrannie in the world I doubt not but some great persons when they have had bloody Tragedies to act for their own particular ends have sometimes made the Roman Church a stalking horse and the pretence of Catholick Religion a blind to keep their Policies undiscerned But if we consider seriously what cruelties have been really acted throughout Europe either by the Inquisitors General or by persons specially delegated for that purpose against the Waldenses of old and against the Protestants of later daies against poor ignorant persons against women and children against mad men against dead carkasses as Bue●…r c. upon pretence of Religion not onely by ordinary forms of punishment and of death

their King in the chief City of that Kingdom in a time of Treaty They who purged the Army over and over as loth on their parts willingly to leave one dram of honesty or loyalty in it who would not admit their fellow subjects of much more merit and courage than themselves to assist them They who would not permit his Majesty to continue among the Souldiery lest he should grow too popular They who after they had proclamed to the world his Title and right to that Crown yet sought to have him excluded from the benefit of it and from the execution of his Kingly Office until he should abjure his Religion cast dirt upon his Parents alienate his loyal subjects and ratifie the usurpations of his Rebels These these I say were most unlikely persons to be his restorers Was it ever heard before that subjects acknowledged a Soveraign and yet endeavoured to exclude him from his rights until he had granted whatsoever seemed good in their eyes Others may be more severe in their judgements but I for my part could be well contented that God would give them the Honour to be the repayrers of the breach who have been the makers of the breach to be the restorers of Monarchy who have been the ruiners of Monarchy to be the re-establishers of peace who have been the chiefest Catalines and promoters of VVar. But that can never be whilst they justifie their former rebellious practises and after they have eaten and devoured wipe their mouths and say what have we done until they acknowledge their former errors Repentance onely is able to knit the broken bone why should they be more afraid to confess their faults and shame the Devil than to commit them Yet I cannot say with you that this hath robbed his Majesty of all hopes and means of recovery VVe may not limit God to any time who commonly with-holds his h●…lp until the Bricks be doubled until the edge of the razor doth touch the very throats of his servant that the glory of the work may wholy redound to himself VVe may not limit God to those means which seem most probable in our eyes So long as Joseph trusted to his friend in Court God did forget him when Pharaohs Butler had quite forgotten Joseph then God remembred him God hath nobler wayes of restitution than by Battails and bloudshed that is by changing the hearts of his creatures at his pleasure and turning Esau's vowed revenge into love and kindness I confess his Majesties resolution was great so was his prudence that neither fear which useth to betray the succours of the soul nor any indiscreet Action or word or gesture in so long a time should either discover him or render him suspected VVhen I consider that the Heir of a Crown in the midst of that Kingdom where he had his breeding whom all mens eyes had used to Court as the rising Sun of no common features or physiognomy at such time when he was not onely believed but known to be among them when every Corner of the Kingdom was full of Spys to search him and every Port and Inne full of Officers to apprehend him I say that he should travail at such a time so long so far so freely in the sight of the Sun exposed to the view of all petsons without either discovery or suspition seems little less than a miracle That God had smitten the eyes of those who met him with blindness as the ●…yes of the Sodomites that they could not find Lots door or the Syrian Souldiers that were sent to apprehend Elisha This strange escape and that former out of Scotland where his condition was not much better nor his person much safer do seem strangely to presage that God hath yet some great work to be done by him in his own due time You attribute this rare deliverance and the hopes of his conversion in part to the prayers and tears of his Mother prayers and tears were the onely proper Arms of the old Primitive Christians more particularly they are the best and most agreeable defence of that sex but especially the prayers and tears of a Mother for the Son of her desires are most powerful As it was said of the prayers and tears of Monica for St. Austine her Son fieri non p●…tuit ut filius istarum lacrymarum periret It could not be that a Son should perish for whom so many tears were shed God sees her tears and hears her prayers and will grant her request if not according to her will and desire we often ask those things which being granted would prove prejudicial to our selves and our friends yet ad utilit atem to his Majesties greater advantage which is much better She wisheth him a good Catholick and God will preserve him a good Catholick as he is We do not doubt but the prayers of his Father who now follows the Lamb in his whi●…es for his perseverance will be more effectual with God than the prayers of his Mother for his change Your instance of his Majesties Grandfather your grand King Henry the fourth is not so apposite or fit for your purpose He gained his Crown by turning himself towards his people you would perswade his Majesty to turn from his people and to cast away his possibilities of restitution that is to cut off a natural leg and take one of wood To the tears of his Mother you adde the blood of his Father whom you justly stile happy and say most truly of him that he preferred the Catholick Faith before his Crown his liberty his life and whatsoever was most dear unto him This faith was formerly rooted in his heart by God not secretly and invisibly in the last moments of his life to unite him to the Roman Catholick Church but openly during his whole Reign all which time he lived in the bosom of the true Catholick Church Yet you are so extremely partial to your seif that you affirm that he died invisibly a Member of your Roman Catholick Church as it is by you contre-distinguished to the rest of the Christian world An old pious fraud or artifice of yours learned from Machiavel to gain credit to your Religion by all means either true or false but contrary to his own profession at his death contrary to the express knowledge of all that were present at his murther Upon a vain presumption that Talem nisi vestra Ecclesia nulla pareret filium And because you are not able to produce one living witness you cite St. Austin to no purpose to prove that the elect before they are converted do belong invisibly to the Church Yea and before they were born also But St. Austine neither said nor thought that after they are converted they make no visible profession or profess the contrary to that which they beleeve Seek not thus to adorn your particular Church not with borrowed but with stollen Saints VVhom all the

world know to have been none of yours VVhat Faith he professed living he confirmed dying In the Communion of the Church of England he lived and in that Communion at his death he commended his soul into the hands of God his Saviour That which you have confessed here concerning King Charls will spoil your former demonstration that the Protestants have neither Church nor Faith But you confess no more in particular here than I have heard some of your famous Roman Doctors in this City acknowledge to be true in general And no more than that which the Bishop of Chalcedon a man that cannot be suspected of partiality on our side hath affirmed and published in two of his Books to the world in Print That Protestantibus credentibus c. persons living in the Communion of the Protestant Church if they endeavour to l●…arn the truth and are not able to attain unto it but hold it implicitely in the preparation of their minds and are ready to receive it when God shall be pleased to reveal it which all good Protestants and all good Christians are they neither want Church nor Faith nor Salvation Mark these words well They have neither Church nor Faith say you If they be thus qualified as they all are they want neither Church nor Faith nor Salvation saith he Lastly Sir to let us see that your intelligence is as good in Heaven as it is upon Earth and that you know both who are there and what they do you tell us That the Crown and Conquest which his late Majestie gained by his sufferings was pro●…ured by the intercession of his Grandmother Queen Mary We should be the apter to believe this if you were able to make it appear that all the Saints in Heaven do know all the particular necessities of all their posterity upon Earth St. Austin makes the matter much more doubtfull than you that 's the least of his Assertion or rather to be plainly false fa●…endum est nescire quidem ●…ortuos quid hic agatur But with presumptions you did begin your Dedication and with presumptions you end it In the mean time till you can make that appear we observe that neither Queen Maries constancy in the Roman Catholick Faith nor Henry the Fourths change to the Roman Catholick Faith could save them from a bloody end Then by what warrant do you impute King Charles his sufferings to his errour in Religion Be your own Judge Heu quanta de spe decidimus Alas from what hopes are we fall'n Pardon our errour that we have mistaken you so long You have heretofore pretended your self to be a moderate person and one that seriously endeavoured the reuniting of Christendome by a fair Accommodation The widest wounds are closed up in time and strange Plants by Inoculation are incorporated together and made one And is there no way to close up the wounds of the Church and to unite the disagreeing members of the same mystical body Why were Caleb and Joshua onely admitted into the Land of promise whilst the carkasses of the rest perished in the VVilderness but onely because they had been Peace-makers in a time of Schism VVell fare our learned and ingenuous Country-man St. Clara who is altogether as perspicacious as your self but much more charitable You tell us to our grief that there is no accommodation to be expected that Cardinal Richelieu was too good a Christian and too good a Catholique to have any such thought that the one Religion is true the other false and that there is no society between light and darkness This is plain dealing to tell us what we must trust to No Peace is to be expected from you unless we will come unto you upon our knees with the words of the Prodigal Child in our mouths Father forgive us we have sinned against Heaven and against thee Is not this rare Courtesie If we will submit to your will in all things you will have no longer difference with us So we might come to shake a worse Church by the hand than that which we were separated from If you could be contented to wave your last four hundred years determinations or if you liked them for your selves yet not to obtrude them upon other Churches If you could rest satisfied with your old Patriarchal power and your Principium unit at is or Primacy of Order much good might be expected from free Councils and Conferences from moderate persons And we might yet live in Hope to see an Union if not in all Opinions yet in Charity and all necessary points of saving truth between all Christians to see the Eastern and Western Chur●…hes joyn hand in hand and sing Ecce quàm bonum quam jucundum est habitare fratres in unum Behold how good and pleasant a thing it is for brethren to dwell together in unity But whilst you impose upon us daily new Articles of Faith and urge rigidly what you have unadvisedly determined we dare not sacrifice Truth to Peace nor be separated from the Gospel to be joyned to the Roman Church Yet in the point of our separation and in all things which concern either doctrine or discipline we profess all due obedience and submission to the judgement and definitions of the truly Catholique Church Lamenting with all our hearts the present condition of Christendome which renders an Oecumenical Council if not impossible mens judgements may be had where their persons cannot yet very difficult wishing one as general as might be and untill God send such an Opportunity endeavouring to conform our selves in all things both in Credendis Agendis to whatsoever is uniform in the belief or practice in the doctrine or discipline of the Universal Church And lastly holding an Actual Communion with all the divided parts of the Christian world in most things in voto according to our desires in all things FINIS Plut. Sir Henry wotton No differences in the Church directly about the Sacrament for the first 800 years 1 Cor. 11. Theod. ex Ignatio Leo. Ser. 4. de Quad. Epiph. h●…r 30. 46. Aug. l. de H●…re c. 64. ●…el l. 1. de Sac. Euch. 〈◊〉 1. Bel. ibid. Syn. Nic. 2 Act 6. Disp. 179. c. 1 Yet different Observations And different expressions The first difference about the presence of Christ in the Sacrament Exact Syn. Rom. sub Nich. 2. D●… Cons. dist 2 cap. Eg●…●…er Alex. Gab. Bon●…v c. Scot. in 4. sent dist 11. q. 3. T. 3. q. 75. d. 81. c. 1. The determination of the manner of the presence opened a flood-gate to a Deluge of Controversies Lib. de c●…r Theol. Schol. Gloss. de Con. d. 2. cap. Tim●…rem Guidm●…nd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 de ver Vasq. dis●… 184. 6. 8. Uasq T. 3. q. 75. d. 181 c. 4. Bel. l. 3. de Euc. c. 3. in fine In 4 d. 44 q. 7. art 〈◊〉 q. 3. I. ib. 4. de Euch. c. 25 Chap. 27. Conc. Uien B●…ll 4. de

the finding out of the right sense Thirdly to be able to compare Texts with Texts Antecedents with Consequents without which one can hardly attain to the drift and scope of the Holy Ghost in the obscurer passages And lastly it is something to know the Idiotisms of that language wherein the Scriptures were written He that wants all these requisites and yet takes upon him out of a phanatique presumption of private illumination to interpret Scripture is a doting Enthusiast fitter to be refuted with Scorn than with Arguments He that presumes above that degree and proportion which he hath in these means and above the talent which God hath given him as he that hath a little Language yet wants Logick or having both Language and Logick knows not or regards not either the Judgement of former Expositors or the practice and tradition of the purest Primitive Ages or the Symbolical Faith of the Catholick Church is not a likely workman to build a Temple to the Lord but ruine and destruction to himself and his seduced followers A new Physician we say requires a new Church-yard But such bold ignorant Empericks in Theology are ten times more dangerous to the Soul than an ungrounded unexperienced Quacksalver to the Body This hath alwaies been the doctrine and the practice of our English Church First it is so far from admitting Laymen to be Directive Interpreters of holy Scripture that it allows not this Liberty to Clergy-men so much as to gloss upon the Text untill they be Licenced to become Preachers Secondly for Judgement of Discretion onely it gives it not to private persons above their Talents or beyond their last It disallows all phantastical and Enthusiastical presumption of incompetent and unqualified Expositors It admits no man into holy Orders that is to be capable of being made a Directive In●…erpreter of Scripture howsoever otherwise qualified unless he be able to give a good account of his Faith in the Latin tongue so as to be able to frame all his Expositions according to the Analogy thereof It forbids the Licenced Preachers to teach the people any doctrine as necessary to be religiously held and believed which the Catholick Fathers and old Bishops of the Primitive Church have not collected out of the Scriptures It ascribes a Judgement of Jurisdiction over Preachers to Bishops in all manner of Ecclesiastical duties as appears by the whole body of our Canons And especially where any difference or publick Opposition hath been between Preachers about any point or doctrine deduced out of Scripture It gives a power of determining all emergent Controversies of faith above Bishops to the Church as to the witness and keeper of the Sacred Oracles And to a lawful Synod as the representative Church Now Sir be your own Judge how infinitely you have wronged us and your self more suggesting that temerariously and without the Sphere of your knowledge to his Majestie for the principal ground of our Reformation which our souls abhorr Is there no mean between stupidity and madness Must either all things be lawful for private persons or nothing Because we would not have them like Davids Horse and Mule without understanding do we therefore put both Swords in their hands to reform and cut off to plant and to pluck up to alter and abolish at their pleasure We allow them Christian liberty but would not have them Libertines Admit some have abused this just liberty may we therefore take it away ●…rom others So we shall leave neither a ●…un in Heaven nor any excellent Crea●…ure upon Earth for all have been abused ●…y some persons in some kinds at some ●…imes We receive not your upstart supposititious traditions nor unwritten fundamentals But we admit genuine Universal Apostolical traditions As the Apostles Creed the perpetual Virginity of the Mother of God the Anniversary Festivals of the Church the Lenton fast Yet we know that both the duration of it and the manner of observing it was very different in the Pri●…nitive times We believe Episcopacy to an ingenuous person may be proved out of Scripture without the help of Tradition but to such as are froward the perpetual practice and tradition of the Church renders the interpretation of the Text more authentique and the proof more convincing What is this to us who admit the practice and tradition of ●…he Church as an excellent help of Exposition Use is the best interpreter of Laws and we are so far from believing that We cannot admit tradition without allowing the Papacy that one of the principal mo●…ives why we rejected the Papacy as it is now established with Universality of Jurisdiction by the Institution of Christ and superiority above Oecumenical Councils and Infallibility of Judgement was the constant tradition of the Primitive Church So Sir you see your demonstration shaken into ●…ces You who take upon you to remove whole Churches at our pleasure have not so much ground left you as to set your Instrument upon Your two main ground-works being vanished all your Presbyterian and Independent superstructions do remain like so many Bubbles or Castles in the Air It were folly to lay closer siege to them which the next puff of wind will disperse ru●…at subductis tecta Columnis Howsoever though you have mistaken the grounds of our Reformation and of your discourse yet you charge us that we have renounced the Sacrifice of the Mass Transubstantiation the seven Sacraments Justification by inherent righteousness Merits Invocation of Saints Prayer for the Dead with P●…rgatory and the Authority of the Pope Are these all the necessary Articles of the new Roman Creed that we have renounced Surely no you deal too favourably with us We have in like manner renounced your Image-worship your half Communion your Prayers in a tongue un known c. It seems you were loth to mention these things First you say we have renounced your Sacrifice of the Mass. If the Sacr●…fice of the Mass be the same with the Sacrifice of the Cross we attribute more unto it than your selves we place our whole hope of Salvation in it If you understand another Propitiatory Sacrifice distinct from that as this of the Mass seems to be for confessedly the Priest is not the same the Altar is not the same the Temple is not the same If you think of any new meritorious satisfaction to God for the sins of the world or of any new supplement to the merits of Christs Passion you must give us leave to renounce your Sacrifice indeed and to adhere to the Apostle By one offering he hath persected for ever them that are sanctified Surely you cannot think that Christ did actually sacrifice himself at his last Supper for then he had redeemed the world at his last Supper then his subsequent sacrifice upon the Cross had been superfluous nor that the Priest now doth more than Christ did then We do readily acknowledge an Eucharistical sacrifice of prayers and