Selected quad for the lemma: saint_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
saint_n	apostle_n	church_n	corinth_n	1,463	5	10.8722	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41334	A sober reply to the sober answer of Reverend Mr. Cawdrey, to A serious question propounded viz. whether the ministers of England are bound by the word of God to baptise the children of all such parents, which say they believe in Jesus Christ, but are grosly ignorant, scandalous in their conversations, scoffers at godliness, and refuse to submit to church dicipline ... : also, the question of Reverend Mr. Hooker concerning the baptisme of infants : with a post-script to Reverend Mr. Blake / by G.I. Firmin ...	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.; Hooker, Thomas, 1586-1647. Covenant of grace opened.	1653 (1653)	Wing F966; ESTC R16401	67,656	64

recompenced that priviledge with a wit●esse I think when he sends his Gospel to all the world which before was tyed up to little Canaan 2. If this still hold then let the vilest monster in England I have seene such stand for sureties in former times when that custome was used that the Indians are honest men in comparison of them bring a servant which he hath bought and become surety for so ignorant the man is that hee had neede be carechised himselfe let him bring such a one to godly M. Cawdrey if such a villaine lived in his parish and bid Mr. ●at baptise him as he is his servant would you doe it you must doe it according to that text for when they were Apostatiz'd they did no question circumcise them if they tooke them 〈◊〉 such a villaine be excommunicated 〈◊〉 gives title also for ought I can discerne by you for though 〈◊〉 ●●●es were excommunicated yet I see by your doctrine they might circumcise such To say no I would have such as are understanding and godly men only or not scandalous who do undertake for them able to instruct them c. Sir you have nothing in the text for any such thing besides if you can prove it you hurt not my question 3. I observe a vast difference betweene their servants and ours they had strong power over their servants Exod. 21.20 21. I observed in New England the Indians whom we had taken in warre or others who lived with us sometimes halfe or a whole yeare yet if they could handsomly get away from us they would and did we should have done finely to have baptised them we buy no servants who are English men or Christians as you call them to be under our power as they were Hence learned Rives saith there bad ne●de be a great caution lest the Ordinance be prophaned for our servants are not as theirs In Gen. 17. p. 443. last Ed. To. 4. l. 5. c. 11. s 2. And lea●ned Chamier speakes very warily upon the question Servi si fim verè servi quales olim non diffitear●nam Abrahamo legimus imperatum ut circumcideret suos omnes servos sed quales hodià not serves babem●● ut plurimum quia verè liberi suns non putem sic tractandus non cor quidem qui jure belli fiunt subditi principibus nam hoc genus subditorum tamen liberum manet De natu ergo ex parentibus insidelibus liberis si consentiant parentes distinguendum putem Consentiunt enim vel ip●i facti fideles ac tune nulla difficultas c. vel perseverates in infidelitate ac tum non putem baptizandor c. For those who are ●●rè servi which it seemes we have none but if we had such should we baptise them being adulti before they be taught the Covenant and see if they will owne it Teach and Baptize for Infants I thinke we never buy such servants 4. For suretiship that comes not in this way by being bought as they were I have nothing to say to it if you can prove it to be a divine Institutioon I will attend to it but I think it will prove but an humane Invention for sureties being joyned with parents Caranz p. 17. Pet. Mart. lo● com 822. we know who was the parent of that invention Higin●● was no Apostle if you have a better parent for your suretiship I pray bring him forth 〈◊〉 if any man hath a minde to be a surety for other folkes children let him per me lices I thinke those who have children of their owne and know what is to educate them will not be forward to be sureties for others I doubt many men if they examine how they have discharged their suretiship heretoforē have cause to be humbled for I thinke most never regarded it and how to discharge●t when they have them not under their charge and remove so commonly as we do I know not But you with tell me of the stream of Divines are for it there is a little Rivules that is not acknowledged by Gerhard loc co To. 4. p. 583. he quotes Galvin Beza Bucanus and for Beza Walaeus doth acknowledge tutius judicat ut priuserudiantur Hunnius also Rivet S●ith is against it To. 1. p. 492. on Gen. 17. p. 343. de bapt Let me adde one more of no small note Tertullian in those words veniant dum adolescunt veniant dum discunt which words you must either understand as some doe against Infant-baptisme altogether as divers doe saith Lauren. upon Te●tul and conclude from hence and a place of Nazian Orat. in San● Lavac that these two Fathers were against Infant-baptism though I think Nazianzen speaks enough in that Ocation to cleare his minde or if you will not rake it so you must take it that Tertullian there speaks against baptising by sureties and he that reads two lines before shall easily perceive that is his meaning and so Mr. Marshall interpre●s him and that clearely Against Tombs p. 36. so then you have not all on your side So much for your way of Adoption Now I returne to your answer Page 15. p. 15. you tell me there I have started a new question Sir you know I said at the first I must move two questions and for this had I not moved it I had said nothing for what if I had proved that it is onely the n●xt parent gives right to Baptisme yet if such parents as these in the Q. were judged fit Church members and so fit to give title I had said nothing that therefore was my scope to prove these were not fit and consequently ought to be reformed or shut out of the Church of which before You say not much to my first Argument to prove they are not Page 16. viz. because they are not visible Saints you acknowledge they are not nor ought to be admitted if now they were to be admitted then reforme such or cast them out for that you say of Corinth I say it is no wonder though Paul call the whole Church Saints making denomination from the melior and it is likely the Major part as visible Saints but had they beene all such as you say grosly ignorant or scandalous whether the Apostle would then have called them Saints or no I cannot tell What you say about profession of faith that is requisite to give a man admission I have elted it before p. 1. you say presently Page 17. This is sufficient for admission but as there must he more to continue such in the Church c. you say p. 19. more is required to first admission then to continuance in the Church I know not how to reconcile these For positive matter for Excommuncation you say right there must be so indeed and I think we are not to seek for that but for Excommunication I gave you my thoughts before For my second Argument that falls you say also I doe not know that my

Repentance John required Repentance yea say you at first constitution he and Apostles did But Sir You know Tertullians minde concerning Adulterers 2.1 De pudicitid And Cyprian te's us it was the practise of some not to receive such againe Ep. 52. Synop pur Disp. 48. Tb. 31. shall persons now be as vile and worse for the continuance in the Church aggravates their ignorance and scandall then at the first constitution and shall I not now require Repentance of such before I Baptize by vertue of them yea and that the Repentance may in judgement of Charity give hopes of a true Repentance and if any will grant it for this one scandall I know not but the same Rule will reach for other Scandalls If you will Baptize all these ignorant ones and the Scandalous ones without any more a doe but to presse the Covenant which they know not on them as you say do if you please To conclude this Head of Selfe confutation I am not yet beaten off but that passage of the Leyden Professors doe a little favour me the question was whether if there be a great number in the Church who off●nd in Doctrine of Life may we now use Excommunication The answer is If men be openly and contumaciously corrupt Let the multitude be great yet to such godly Pastours ought not nor may give the Sacraments of Divine Grace but with one consent they must be denyed and commit the event to God because godly Pastours may not communicate the Signes of Grace to them to whom Christ doth openly deny them and forbids the Communicating of them Here I observe they doe not stand for the Excommunication of a multitude for these words Sacraments and Signes of Grace if there be Enallage numeri that they should meane onely the Lords Supper I should marvell at it that there should be so much paines taken in solving of the question and then to come and tell us onely of Suspension fromthe Supper which is so common a thing But for their reason I would make use of that and when they have brought me the Scripturall ground where Christ forbids the Ministers to give the Parent one Signe of Grace I will see if the same ground will not ●eny us to give the Child the other signe of Grace by vertue of this Parent For your Pro-parent and Adoption that comes in to be confidered in another place I must now answer to selfe-confucation Dr. Ames speakes something for me Conse l. 4. c. 27. Sect. 6. Qui aliquo modo in professione sua ad Ecclesiam pertinent sed foedus tamen Des apert● violant corum Infantes cum aliquo discrimine debent Baptizari it a scilicèt ut quod foedus requirit in ipfis deest per aliquos quantum fieri potest suppleatur 1. Nam distinctio aliqua inter puros impuros debet in sacris omnibus observari ad bonorum consolationem correctionem malorum omnium adificationem 2. Instituta Dei non possunt aliter ab omni pollutione couservari The Doctor I suppose would have Sureties joyned but if these Sureties cannot bee proved to be an appointment of God then hee is yet stronger for mee By this time I hope I have cleared my selfe in the Judgement of an indifferent Reader from Selfe-confutation I knew this Church-membership was the strongest Argument that could be brought and therefore mentioned it that Church-members might challenge any Ordinance while let alone I could not thinke otherwise but that therefore I was bound to administer the Seals as if their challenging which comes onely by reason of their Toleration in the Church would make my Administration warrantable though they are never so wicked and tolerated sinfully this I could not believe So that my Selfe confutation ariseth from something you put upon mee which I owne not the great strength then of your Booke against me I hope is weakned and all those answers from hence which you make great use of are no answers Before I passe to a further examination of your Answer let me propound one thing more wherein I heartily desire satisfaction from you being not cleare in the thing my selfe viz. Whether all the People in England under which we comprehend Wales be Members of true Churches for if it can be proved that all the Congregations in England are not true Churches then I should have an Argument strong enough against you but sir I am not so satisfied to say they are not nor yet so cleare to say they are Therefore I desire to learne In my Booke P. 43. I said I did but faintly acknowledge such a thing that all are Church members but afterward when I came to write in defence of the godly Presbyteriall Ministers whom I honour and reverence against the Separatists I said I dare not undertake to prove all the Congregations in England to be true Churches so that I doe not fly back because of your Booke Page 4. it was done long before seriously debating with my selfe what the Separatists would urge against me thus I phansied they would argue A Church is a company of those who are called and this call must be answered or else it is nothin To the visible profession of Faith in Christ and obedience unto Christ Ius Divin p. 37 according to the Gospell This is the Preybyterians definition say they But divers of the Congregations in the North of England and Wales and other places are not such Companies c. Ergo they are no Churches Definitio constat ex essentialibus and definitions if true are eternally true Now how can there be the effect where there is not the essentiall cause according to their own grant I would have answered if you speake of a pure visible Church you say right but there may be a true Church visible though divers corrupt Members as in Corinth Sardis c. To this I conceived they would reply thus as for Corinth Sardis c. We doe not deny it for there were reall Christians and visible Christians also though there were corrupt ones and these held up the essentiall cause of the Church but in divers of these Parishes we shall not sinde foure it may be so much as visible Saints if we take in knowledge and what that definition and Mr Cawdrys qualifications require for a visible Saint Besides what Corinth and Sardis had Ibidem was only by way of Calling as say the London Ministers but what ours are was and is by the Sword of the Magistrate King Henry the highth he left us Popish King Edward the sixth he takes away the Masse-booke and sends the booke o● Common-prayer though the people love the other way yet if the King will have it so it must be so Queene Mary comes and shee turnes about againe the people follow her Queene Elizabeth shee takes away Masse againe if it were ten times in a yeare saith Mr. Rogers Fox Mart. vol. 3. the people will turne with the