Selected quad for the lemma: saint_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
saint_n	apostle_n	church_n	corinth_n	1,463	5	10.8722	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A30942	The disputation at Winchcomb November 9, 1653 together with the letters and testimonies pertinent thereto : wherein is offered some satisfaction in serveral points of religion.	Barksdale, Clement, 1609-1687.	1654 (1654)	Wing B794; ESTC R23641	73,761	196

conceived some have set up that to the disadvantage of other prayers or perhaps been a little superstitious in honouring the former you would bend the stick the other way and by omitting for a time the use of the words though you keep the matter still teach people to regard the sense as the onely thing Wherein you are not I think opposed by the other side who hold the prayer to have been used by Christ's appointment by the Disciples and fit to be used by us How can this be denied yet do not deny but the words may lawfully be omitted and the sense kept And surely it were a very great restraint of Devotion to confine it to any Forms whatsoever my particular necessities being not particularly provided for by the forms of any other Which necessities yet my heart may much desire to open to God And the like may be said sometime of a Congregation So that as every Christian must labour to express himself in private beyond forms so every Minister must endeavour after the Ability to deliver to God the needs of his people as the exigent shall require And the exigent doth not always admit of preparation To conclude we gladly use the help our Lord and his servants that have gon beore us have afforded us We value their prayers and use them We do also after their pattern and agreeable to them frame other prayers for our use And yet after all prepared prayer the Christian Soul must be allowed her sudden ejaculations and extemporall ascensions to the Throne of Grace What would you have more c. The Answer given to this letter was civill and so was the Reply but neither is found Only Mr. Barksdale remembreth he sent Mr. Medes Diatribae with his next letter and commended some of the discourses to Mr. Helme who answerd that Mr. Mede lived in the time of the Prelates and no wonder if he did serve that time wherein surely he mistook the Genius of that excellent scholar whose learning was accompanyed with equall integrity as the Reader may finde by his Epistles and life since published Mr. Helme his conclusion then was that he would avoid controversies and preach Christ unto the people And thus far all was fair between him and Mr. Barksdale and so it continued till Mr. Helme began more and more to alienate himself from all neighbouring Ministers except some few more suitable to his own mind with whom alone he gave out he would supply the Lecture And accordingly when another came to preach he denyed him and took the pulpit himself and there deliver'd such things which occasioned Another Letter of Mr. Barksdale to Mr. Helme Maii 26. 52. Vincat Veritas Vivat Charitas SIR I much commend what you said well of brotherly union and love but cannot away with this new business of separation Fraternall Admonition also I much desire should be more practised but suspension before Admonition I cannot allow of Clearly my opinion is notwithstanding all that I have heard from you and your Brethren that Ministers are not to be condemn'd by you for administring the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper in their Congregations though mixed And for the proof here of I do humbly tender unto you and yours these following Reasons which I shall be ready to enlarge and press more Logically if it be desired 1. Because of Christ's precept Do this in remembrance of me This remembrance should be frequent and not delayed from year to year on pretence of unpreparedness 2. I argue from Christ's example As he washed the feet of Judas among the rest so if you will hear the Expositors antient and recent of best account he admitted Judas to the Sacrament though he well knew his unworthiness and Ministers do not know the unworthiness of those they admit but hope the best upon their profession 3. From the Apostles words Ye shew forth the Lords death The Lords death is shewed forth to the Ear of the unworthy Hearer why may it not to the Eye also of the Receiver though in the Event he prove unworthy 4. From those words of the Apostle where he saith The word is the savour of death to some Yet the danger of that must not hinder Ministers from preaching in mi●t Congregations and therefore the danger of the unworthiness of some Receivers must not hinder the administration of the Sacrament 5. I allege the example of the Apostles who upon profession of Faith Baptized whole multitudes and no doubt communicated with them although it appeared after that they were not all right 6. St. Paul directing his Epistles to mixt Congregations calls them all Saints because of their holy calling and profession and those that are Saints in reputation may be admitted 7. In the Church of Corinth were many disorderly persons besides the incestuous person that were admitted And 1 Cor. 11. Where he blames their comming together for the worse he forbids them not to come together nor doth he check the Minister and forbid him to offer the Sacrament but saith he Let a man examine himself and so Neither doth the unworthy eat damnation to the Minister or any other but only to himself Nor is the Cup of blessing turned by the Minister into a Cup of poyson God forbid such language of yours but the unworthy Receiver of the cup of blessing loses the blessing through his unworthiness 8. As the word becomes the savour of death to the unworthy so are their prayers abomination yet you both receive them to the Word and joyn with them in Prayer and you sing Psalms with them namely the 100. Psalms We are his flock he doth us seed c. 9. As the Word is a quickning Ordinance so the Sacrament is a quickning Ordinance For it is always accompanied with the Word Nay without the Word 't is no Sacrament If the Word without the Sacrament may quicken those that were dead much more may the Word with the Sacrament Christ is the Bread of life both to give life and to maintain life 10. You do I suppose admit Children of all Christian parents upon their desire and profession to the one Sacrament why do you not admit the parents themselves likewise to thè other 11. You have no power to receive accusations and proofs of Witnesses without which you cannot give sentence and will you condemn and suspend or excommunicate before you have tryed or upon hear-say Quis erit innocens 12. You say you make a separation in the Church not from the Church as if it were lawfull to make a separation in the Church A separation in the Church is a rent of the Church is offensive and saddens the heart of many pious discreet and charitable persons that however they like you otherwise cannot joyn with you in your by-way 13. We must not deny the worthy and keep from them the means and pledges of grace because of the unworthiness of some 14. As we offer the Covenant to all so must we offer the seal

with cursing and swearing All the rest forsook him and fled Their strength was little and their knowledge was less witness the Disciples going to Emaus fools and slow of heart and the question proposed about the Kingdom Acts 1. What is the lowest measure of grace I will not determine Where I see any hopes or weak beginnings of Christianity I embrace and cherish them In the School of Christ there be many little ones that must be gently used and there be some great ones that must not be offended but upon great reasons Why should I not think better of others than my self when the B. Apostle calls himself the chiefest of sinners and less than the least of Saints He that hath beams to cast out of his own eve must not be picking motes out of his Brothers eye 'T is true the Brother must be admonished especially by the Minister but this must be done discreetly and orderly and with meekness of spirit He that obeys one or a few scapes the censure of the Many and may not be reckoned as an alien None is so but he that proves obstinate after the methods of Counsel and Reproof And verily Mr. H. it had been a good method for you to have admonisht me and the rest of the Congregation whom you are offended with and to have received our Answer before you condemn'd us in your Pulpit And that Answer will serve now In what we have offended God we ask his pardon In what we have offended you we will give you satisfaction Thus doing we shall not be excluded from Communion by any just sentence H. You have some that might be named that both before and after the Communion have shewed themselves no sober men B. That may be and I shall desire to be informed of them that I may labour to reform them or exclude them if they be proved open and notorious evill livers And I do often commend and endeavour to bring into better practice the Duty of fraternall Admonition and Correption which is now the more necessary because we want publick Discipline see D. Hammond of Fraternall Admonition Having declared my self thus I must conclude your Argument against my Communicants till you prove your Accusation better to be only an Argument of your own uncharitableness H. I cannot yet allow of your Call to Minister For Ministers truly called are appointed and ordained by the Godly people But you are not so appointed Therefore B. You will I hope hereafter allow me equall liberty to oppose your Orders I have mine from a Bishop assisted by his Presbyters according to Apostolicall Institution and the constant practice of the Church The People cannot confer on us our power They may approve and assent to our Calling and give testimony of our good conversation and receive us when we are sent unto them I am owned as a Rector of the People to whom I Minister W. We are servants of Gods people Paul I am sure saith so of himself B. He saith so and so doe I their servant for Jesus sake Let them acknowledge us their spirituall Rulers and Fathers in Christ and we will in all humble condescension be their Servants for Jesus sake Jesus himself our Lord and Master stiles himself a Minister or Servant of his Servants and he hath said He that will be greatest among you let him be Servant of all 'T is easy to distinguish between a servant by voluntary condescension and a servant by necessary subjection Tr. You said before that in case of prophaning the holy things you would confess a Minister deserves suspension Who shall suspend him but the Congregation What other power is there B. I confessed the prophaner of Holy things to deserve great punishment but after due Admonition and upon his obstinacy not else Yet I cannot see how the people have any Authority to sentence him Tr. Who would you have to do it Who B. To speak freely I would submit my self to my Ordinary the Apostolicall Bishop or if you like the Latin word better the President or Superintendent for whom I have spoken before And I am ready to joyn with you in a Petition that we may have an Apostolicall Bishop set over us as it was in practice of the antient Church H. You stand too much upon the practice of the Antient Church come to the Scripture B. I am sorry you value the practice of the antient Church so little Pray where is your maine strength in Scripture for your Independent or Congregationall Churches H. Let us read the famous Text Mat 18 15 16 17 18 19. 20. Out of which Text I frame this Argument If here be meant by the Church a Congregation from which lyes no Appeale then is the Independent Church founded upon this Text But here is meant a Congregation c. What else will you conceive by the Church B. I am very inclinable to Saint Chrysostome's interpretation who by the Church understandands the Elders and Rulers of the Church H. The word Church is no where so taken in all the Scripture and therefore it cannot be so taken here shew us any place B. It doth not follow for some word may possibly signify that in one place which it signifies no where else and again there may be other places though I cannot readily shew them I will consider of it H. No I doe assure you t is never so used and therefore I hope you will yeeld to the Word that we may go on with one consent in the work of God B. God grant it if it be the Work of God but you have not cleered it yet I cannot yield to your sense for this Reason That sense of Scripture concerning Church-government which was never received by the Doctors of the Antient Church is not the true sense of Scripture But your sense of the place was never received c. H. Still still he declines Scripture and would lead us to human Ordinances B. As for human Ordinances I can embrace them so far as they are not opposite to Scripture but now we are upon the Interpretation of Scripture I must profess I have been ever bred in the Church that requires all her Ministers to receive the Scripture as interpreted by the Antient Fathers and to propose nothing to the people contrary to what was derived out of the Scripture by them I am not ashamed of my Mother the Church of England nor by Gods grace ever shall I. And I doe heartily warn all that hear me to take heed as they tender their Soules of departing rashly from the Communion of of the said Church W. I thought where we should have you B. You have me where I have ever been and where I mean to abide till I am convinced I am not unwilling to learn of any one And pray Mr. W. tell me whether you hold not a Synod of chosen men gathered out of your Churches to have authority over them all W. No authority at all such a Synod may be of