and justice here from his Domestick Servants 'T is pitie that this Argument was not framed before the Church of Israel madeher complaint that Abraham was ignorant of her It would have taught her better divinity 2. 'T is no Demonstration sure God would not hide from Abraham the thing he was to do which concern'd so much his Brother Lot albeit he never revealed afterwards to any of his dearest servants that we read of unless his Prophets any such thing therefore he will reveal to any Saint in Heaven the praiers that are made to them by any person whatsoever By what hath been said I may be bold to infer that the invocation of Saints is very foolish and if so that the Church of Rome is not infallible But our Authour claps in two places of Scripture without any coherence at all Sect. 10 to prove I know not what and albeit they have been answered an 150. times he shall not bate me a single unite Yet doth he bolt them forth without any notice of the answers given We read saith he not only an Angel but every one of the four and twentie Elders to have in their hands golden Censers and Vials full of Odours Rev. 8.3.5.8 which are the prayers of the Saints that is of their Brethren upon Earth Now to take these two places in their Order 1. Revel 8.3 We read another Angel came and stood before the Altar having a golden Censer and many Odours were given to him that he should offer them with the prayers of all Saints upon the Golden Altar which was before the Throne and verse 4. The smoke of the Odours which came of the prayers of the Saints ascended up before God out of the Angels hand Now 1. Let it be granted that to one Angel was this given to offer Odours to come up with the praiers of all Saints How doth it follow that they are to be invocated or that he knows when any particular person praies to him or any other Saint May not he offer up his incense continually as knowing onely this that praiers are made continually 2. If one Angel do this How will it follow that all do it or that all Saints 3. If this be a created Angel is there not a fine round of Praiers 1. They are carried by an Angel or revealed by God to the Saints then he pteseuts them to the Angel the Angel to Christ and Christ to the Father 2. This Angel is said to offer Odours to come up with the praiers of all Saints which surely is to do somwhat which may make them more acceptable to God and will they say that the Virgin Mary is no Saint or that any Created Angel offers somwhat to God which makes her praier more acceptable Well but we denie it to have been a created Angel but say it was the Angel of the Covenant who by the incense of his merits and intercessions offers the praiers of all Saints to God and makes them more acceptable unto him For 't is manifest that here is reference to that which was used to be done in the Levitical administration where the Priest entering the Temple offered Incense on the Golden Altar whilest the people in the Court put up their praiers to God Luk. 1.10 Whence we may understand that phrase that the Angel offered his Odours with the prayers of the Saints Now the Levitical Priest who offered incense was a type of Christ not of the Angels and this is that which the Apostle intimates that Christ the Angel of the Covenant Typified by the Levitical Priest offers up the praiers and sighes of his members groaning under the Tyrannie of wicked men and by the incense of his merits makes them acceptable unto God The second Scripture is Apocal. 5.8 where we are told That twenty foure Elders fell down before the Lamb having every one of them Harps and Golden Vials full of Odours in their hands which are the prayers of the Saints Answ 1. Many interpret these of the Elders of the Church as Beda in verse 10. Here it is more plainly declared that the Beasts and the Elders are the Church redeemed by the blood of Christ and gathered from the Nations also he sheweth in what Heaven they are saying they shall reign upon the Earth And so Irenaeus lib. 4. cap. 33. Ambrose on the Apccalyps and Haimo 2. Vossius will tell you that here is nothing intended but Eucharistical praiers not petitory and the four and twenty Elders onely intimate that the whole Family of Christians in Earth and Heaven did render continuall Doxologies to God for the redemption of the World by his Son There is one Argument of greater moment insisted on and that is taken from the miraculous effects not onely of prayers directed to God at the monuments of the Saints but also directed to the Saints themselves Now to this I answer First By denyal that any approved testimonies can be produced of such miraculous effects wrought by any prayers immediately directed unto Saints the Instances which Mr. C. refers us to shall be answered anon Secondly I say that these pretended miracles may justly be suspected for Satanical delusions and that upon several accounts First From the silence of all undoubted Antiquity of any such Sepulchre wonders in the three first ages albeit the Christians long before had used to keep their assemblies at the Coemiteries and Monuments of their Martyrs When God had ceased to exert his power as in former times that he should thus freshly exert it upon these occasions seems incredible and that which cannot easily be admitted by considering men who are acquainted with the Artifices of the Devil Secondly from the nature of them which rendreth them very ridiculous Basilius Selutensis l. 2. c. 10. Thus of Saint Thecla we are told that they who watch the night before her festivity do at at that time yearly see her driving a fiery Chariot in the aire and removing from Seleucia unto Dalisandus a place which she did principally affect in regard of the commodity and pleasantness of the scituation that when she had demanded of Alypius the Grammarian C. 24. forsaken by the Physitians what he ailed and he had replied upon her in that of Homer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thou knowest why should I tell it thee that knowest all things the Martyr being delighted partly with the man and partly with the verse for you must know that after her death she was much affected with Poetry and Oratory C. 21. 24. and continually delighted with such as would be accurate in her praises conveyed a certain round stone into his mouth with the touch whereof he was presently healed Yea the same Basil tells us how having prepared an Oration for her anniversary festivity the day before it should be pronounced he was taken with such an extream pain in his ear C. 27. that the Auditory was like to be quite disappointed But that the Martyr the same night
time to the English Scotch Britains Picts the Latine Tongue by perusing the Scripture a fit citation for a Chapter penned in defiance of it was made common to them all Answer Notwithstanding all this i◠it not evident that the people do not understand their service will not their own witers confesse as much Hear Billet on this subject cited by Cassander What shall we say of our times l. de off pij viri p. 41. wherein scarce or not at all either he that heareth or readeth understandeth what he heareth or readeth and Cassander himself saith it were to be desired that consideration should be had of the people according to the mandate of the Apostle and that the ordinary and vulgar sort of believers might not for ever be excluded wholly from all communion in prayers and divine service Yea was there ever any Papist that durst say the people understood their Latine Service In a word either they do understand it so far as to be able to joyn with the Priest or not if the latter to what end is this Answer produced by you If the former what need of all the former evasions what need of an interpreter of their Mass of Manuals and other helps to understand the Churches prayer Doubtlesse the Peasants in France and Carters in England understand Latine both alike and the recourse of the service once a year is very like to help them much Secondly If there were lesse reason for a change in France and Italy c. why had we not a change in England why have they not in Germany Ireland c Yea Retento ubique cujusque Ecclefia antiquo ritu why doth the Council of Trent require that the old custom of Latine service should every where remain To conclude in your citation of venerable Bede Sect. 29 you shamefully abuse us his words are these Haec Britannia in praesenti juxta numerum librorum quibus Lex divina scripta est quinque gentium linguis unam eandemque summae veritatis verae sublimitatis scientiam scrutatur confitetur Anglorum Britannorum Scotorum Pictorum Latinorum quae meditatione Scripturarum caeteris omnibus est facta communis That is in short Britain at present enjoyes five Tongues English Scots Picts British and Latine which by meditation of the Scripture is made common to them all that is some learned men there are in all these parts some Scots Picts English c. that have attained to a knowledge of the Latine Tongue John Trevison l. 5. c. 24. but yet that the Vulgar did not understand it and that Bede could not so imagine is Evident because this Bede Translated a part of the Bible into the Saxon Tongue for the peoples use L. 4. c. 24. Yea and in this same Historie tells us of a certain Brother in the Monastery of the Abhess Hilda Quicquid ex divinis literis per interpretes disceret Cuncta quae audiendo discerc poterat See Dr. Field ubi supra who would presently express in verse in his own Tongue that is in the English whatsoever he learned by Interpreters out of the Holy Books and whatsoever by hearing he could possibly learn he turned it into most sweet Poems And no wonder if the Scriptures were read in Latine by the Saxons when as Learned men are of Opinion they knew not how before Bedes time to write in their own Language CHAP. XVI The Trent Councils Decree touching Invocation of Soints Sect 1. The Romanists practice Sect. 2. Mr. Cressies Pleas considered Sect. 3. His Argument from begging the Prayers of the living Sect. 4. No Evidence that Saints pray for us in general or particular Sect. 5 6. His Argument to prove the presence of Angels with us confuted Sect. 7. Of the Sphere of their activity Sect. 8. Whether God reveals our prayers to Saints Sect. 9. Rev. 5 8.8 3. No proofs of the Saints offering up our prayers to God Sect. 10. His Argument from Miracles answered Sect. 11. Some Authorities produced by Mr. Cr. very inconsequent as that of Saint Hilary the Council of Chalcedon and Saint Austin Sect. 12. The testimony of St. Basil abused by Mr. C. Sect. 13. Saint Chrysostoms testimony considered Sect. 14. Saint Ambrose Sect. 15. St. Austine Sect. 16. The passages from Theodoret and Nysen spurious Sect. 17. Dr. Pierces Argument from Saint Austin vindicated Sect. 18. No footsteps of this in the Old Testament Sect. 19. Nor in the New Sect. 20. the Testimonies of Irenaeus Tertullian Saint Cyprian Origen and others produced against it ibid. The judgement of the Fathers further evidenced 1. From their putting God into the Definition of prayer Sect. 21. Their affirming God alone to be the Object of it Sect. 22. Their arguing Christ to be truly God on that account Sect. 23. The Council of Laodicea against it Sect. 24. As also that of Constantinople Ibid. The Opinions of many of the Fathers contrary to it Sect. 25. The Conclusion Sect. 26. IN this Chapter we have the Definition of the Trent Council touching the Invocation of Saints P. 179. wherein we are told That it is good and profitable to invocate them to have recourse to their prayers help and assistance for the obtaining good things from God by his Son Jesus Christ P. 199 180. And further that they are impiously perswaded who hold the invocating them to pray for us to be idolatry repugnant to Gods Word or contrary to the honour of the one Mediator Jesus Christ or that it is a foolish thing to supplicate them with words or mind On the contrary we say that the invocation practised by the Church of Rome is 1. Superstitious and Idololatrical 2. Derogatory to our Lord Jesus Christ 3. Repugnant to Gods Word and 4. That to pray to them especially with the mind is foolish All this might be evinced with a little pains but it is already done in many Treatises of the Romanists Idolatry and therefore I shall content my self to shew their practice and leave it to impartial considering men to judge And first Solve polluti labii reatum nunc potens nostri meritis opi mispectorisdures lapides repelle they pray to them for pardon of sins thus the Roman Breviary in the Nativity of Saint John Baptist Thou that art powerful break the hard stones of our hearts by thy rich merits and absolve as from the guilt of a polluted lip And if you would be so charitable as to think that they intend no more then that the Saints should pray for their absolution they will not suffer you to be so for they elsewhere have it Nos à peccatis omnibus solvite jussu quaesumus quorum pracepto subditur salus languor omnium Brev. Rom. in Cor. Apost speaking to the Apostles You that shut Heaven with a word and loose its Locks we pray you command that we be absolved from all our sins for the health and languishing of all men is subject
so Again Mr. C. informs us Sect. 5 that the most learned and sober of our party question not whether the Saints pray for us in general Answer But let me tell him that it is generally questioned by our French Divines Chamier solves all their Arguments with the greatest perspicuity except that single one which is taken from the advancement of their Charity whence you infer that they should be more respectful of our welfare then they were on Earth where they did afford us the benefit of their Prayers but this Argument albeit the most plausible is yet unconsequent for whilest they were here on Earth they haply procured good men to exhort their Relations unto Piety if Ministers spent themselves in preaching and the like but in Heaven they send no Angels that I ever heard of on such errands nor have we any Preachers from the dead Whilest they were here they were sollicitous touching the welfare of their absent friends but do they now think you ask their Guardian Angel how 't is with them Secondly Notwithstanding they have their Charity augmented yet will it not follow that they must pray for their friends below much less for others seeing haply the very knowledge of their friends may be hid from them and were it otherwise it may seem to be grievous to them to consider in what state many of their Relations have been left add to this that they have no certainty that they do not dy the next moment after them Yea lastly how can any man assure me that the Saints in Heaven pray at all Secondly P. 182. S. 6. You tell us these Learned sober men will not deny that they may and do pray personally for their former known acquaintance as Saint Austin believed his Mother did for him Answer This I have already obviated and albeit some who are not willing to think contrary to what some Fathers do allow of may grant it to you yet seeing you can produce neither Scripture for it nor the universal consent of Fathers To. 2. S. 8. And seeing your Arguments are so clearly answered by Chamier we take the liberty to deny or at least to question it Once more Ibid. Yov tell us they will grant that albeit they be in Heaven they may either by Gods Relation or the Revelation of Angels be informed of the Prayers made to them by any others on Earth Answer That this is not impossible at least for God to do we willingly acknowledge but I very much doubt whether any Protestants allow that they actually do so or that it is probable they should be thus acquainted with our desires or if any doe they are never the more Learned for it Secondly 'T is not perhaps impossible there may be men in the Moon and they good Christians and that if a Papist should pray unto them God or his Angels might reveal it And yet I suppose should they upon this account become Petitioners unto them they would be thought little better then Lunaticks yea the same may be said of the Saints in Purgatory which you affirm of the Saints in Heaven and why then do you not pray unto them Will you refuse the assistance of those who are perfected in Charity and other Graces and consequently whose Prayers God hears more willingly then your own will not their prayers be more effectual for sure in Purgatory they will be servent or will they refuse to do us the kindness who do the like for them sure one good turn deserves another and if they will be so surly to us we with the leave of his Holiness will be so to them But to proceed Mr. C. P. 183. will tell us that albeit this rests upon so many uncertainties yet is not that sufficient to hinder them from acknowledging that the practice of invocating Saints by name is very beneficial to them and that on these accounts 1. P. Id. ibid. Because the Angels are continually present with us on the Earth and that it is by them we are defended from the Devils malice who having such a wonderful strength exceeding ours would otherwise destroy us all in our sins nor can it be said that God hinders him seeing he doth not ordinarily interpose his power immediately in Natural Actions Answer This then is the best figment they can Imagine and yet it is most strangely ridiculous to any considering man for was it not the protection of God which kept Satan from Job so that he could do nothing without his Commission and when he had given him Commission could not go beyond it and may he not as easily do the same to others Again secondly the Scripture tells us the Angels are Mistring spirits sent forth for the good of those onely that believe and why doth not the Devil post the wicked down into Hell presently seeing they have no such good Angel to relieve them 3. Will Mr. Crossie say that all the Cattle the sheep and Camels and Oxen yea the Asses of Job had their Guardian Angels if so we will allow our Authour one if not then let him tell us why Satan complain'd he could not come at them Again Have the Tombes of the Martyrs the holy reliques and Images of their Saints every one an Angel to keep them if not why doth not Satan break them or conveigh them away Unless perhaps he approves of your Idolatry and how are ye sure that your Reliques are not changed by him Once more and I have done Have all the Houses in London all the Papists Houses in Rome as many Angels as will guard them keep the Devil from setting fire on them If so the blessed Angels are well employed if not why doth not that Gand Enemy of Mankinde set fire on them every Night Again when on the Lords Day all the Angels of so many Millions of souls come to Saint Peter to tell him such a one in treats his Prayers for such a thing who guards the persons committed to their charge the while or if these Angels be bound to stay here who carries up the prayers to Saint Peter Again seeing so many prayers are put up to the Virgin Mary Surely she must do nothing else but pray there being not one moment when some or other do not pray to her and then what time will she have to hear these nimble TÃ bellarii telling her of New suitors must they interrupt her in her Prayers Again These Saints must not only be told when such a one prayes but whether Hypocritically or no and so I suppose that question must be asked of the Nuncio's Now here is work enough for Saint Mary to receive so many Messengers every day and to enquire whether her suppliants pray in sincerity or not But haply it may be said if any one pray Hypocritically the Guardian Angel will not present that Prayer Answer Very good but seeing the Angel Guardian knows not the heart How will he be able to judge of this Once more when all
the Saints in Heaven are prayed to at once as it is in many Collects and peculiarly on all Saints Dayes surely that day is not an holy day to the Guardian Angel who must be fain to trot to all the Saints in Heaven and acquaint them that Serenus Cressie being very sick and weak desires their prayers But when they pray to all Angels then the poor Angel must not travel over all the Heavens onely but the Earth to boot But we will not deal too severely with him let him proceed and thus he doth it History tells us that Magiclans have alwaies the Devil ready to come at their call why then should not Angels be witnesses of our Actions P. 184. and especially our prayers which as the Scrripture saith they offer as Incense to God Now to I eave the Scripture till anon Here we have more work for the Angel for seeing 't is an Angel Apoc. 8.3 that offers up the prayers and incense of all Saints the Guardian Angel must make a journey to him to unless you will have him to be Christ which will do our Author but little service 2. History likewise will tell us that Magicians and Witches can swim over the Sea in a shell can creep through a key-hole Can dip their finger in a little juice and flie away out of the Chimnie he may believe one as soonas the other Lastly the number of Magitians I hope is few in comparison of other men and so there is some difference as to that for one Devil may better afford to be nigh them especially seeing his service is so much promoted thereby As to that dispute of Saint Austine which concludes the Section I say 1. That he was very uncertain in it and one while denies and again suspects that such a thing might be 2. He saith only possit fieri it may be done this way And again 3. Vt quaedam cognoscant that they may know something and how little service this will do him every one may see P. 184. S. 8. 2. He further tells us We are ignorant how great the sphere of Activitie of the glorified Saints may be in respect of this whole visible world perhaps saith he in the words of Spalatensis the whole sensible world may be no more to one of them then its proper body to an humane soul informing it Answ And are not these men think you put to their shifts who are fain to coin such inventions to salve their Hypothesis But tell me is it probable they inform the whole world so as to be present each of them in every part of the world Or Secondly to operate in each part of the world albeit not present there If the first then will they be little short of omnipresent nor will it be proper to God to fill Heaven and Earth and they being in Hell as well as Heaven and also in Purgatorie How do they escape the fire How â—re the Angels said to ascend to Heaven and descend from it Is it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 only How are the souls of the Fathers delivered from their limbus said to depart thence and to be with Christ to be absent from the body and present with the Lord was Lazarus's soul carried to Heaven and afterwards extended Again to what end is this extension seeing they may be happie without it and why should we imagine it seeing here 't is certain they are not extended beyond their bodies If the second let them tell me how or by what Operation a soul that is in Heaven can tell that such a one who praies in his mind only is praying to him And suppose two were praying together and the one prayed to Peter and the other to Paul by what operation can these spirits discern that the one prayed to him and not the other I suppose a Praier to Saint Paul makes a different motion in their Orb of Aether but then how doth St Paul know who it is that praies to him Perhaps different men make different motions but Saint Paul never knew them and how shall he be informed Why the Guardian Angel must go up and tell him 't is S. C. that makes such a motion and haply he will remember it But how will he know when he prayes Hypocritically why truly when an Hypocrite praies it makes a different motion from a sincere one in the spirits Orb of Air. This Platonical stuff is all that I can imgine to salve the Hypotheses Si quid novisti rectius istis candidus imperti Lastly be it that their presence or operations were so vast yet could they not judge of the heart seeing to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is proper to God and consequently must be as zealous for an Hypocrite as a devout Christian Thirdly Sect. 9 we cannot tell saies he what things God may reveal to them Answ Nor he whether he reveals any thing to them at all and therefore in these things he doth most evidently 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2. What a ridiculous thing is this to suppose such a Circle that when a man hath made a praier that praier should come to God and be revealed by him to a Saint and that Saint bring it to God again 3. Why must he be thought to reveal this to the Spirits in Heaven and not to the Souls in Purgatorie or if equally why are not they also praied to 4. But it is evident from Scripture that God doth not make any revelations of this kind for 't is said Eccles 9.5 The Dead know nothing that is done in this world neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the Sun And again Abraham is ignorant of us Esay 93.16 5. Bellar. himself confutes this Evasion by 2 Arguments 1. If it were so the Church would not say so boldly to all Saints Orate pro nobis but sometimes would prayto God to reveal our desires to them 2. No good reason can be given why Saints under the Old Testament should not be invoked for God might have revealed their Petitions to them though in Limbo Patrum and sure their praiers might have been as beneficial as the praiers of such as were alive 6. Why upon the same presumption should we not pray to the Saints living for albeit their praiers be not quite so effectual as the praiers of Saints departed yet they are effectual and consequently to neglect this will be to neglect one means conducing to our welfare I say upon the same presumption for this reason why God must be supposed to reveal our Praiers can be no other then our good and would not the reason move him to reveal them to Saints on Earth as well as those in Heaven Mr. Cr. p. 185. Oh but saith our adversarie If God said to Abraham a Pilgrim on Earth shall I hide from Abraham the thing that I do how much more may we imagine tha he hideth not the mightie works of his mercie
how many half-pence he would have to buy his Cloak cited from the 22. Book De Civ Dei and the eighth Chapter to let pass the corruption of this Chapter by Ludovicus Vives ingenuously confessed We say that it is thus to be interpreted He prayed viz. to God at the twenty Martyrs that is at their Tombes or Monuments so in Basil 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is at their Monuments as above we have shew'd and this Exposition the very words do lead us to for who ever heard of orare ad aliquem to pray unto one But you will Object that the boyes jeered him as if he had begged of the Martyrs fifty half pence Answer It can be no more concluded hence that he prayed unto them then that our Saviour prayed unto Elias because the Jews were pleased to say so Next for his 32. and 33. Homilies de diversis I could have told him that Bellarmine himself doubts of 43. of them Rivet of them all but especially of those which were added by the Divines of Lovain and indeed we have reason to suspect what ware you obtrude upon us and therefore I take leave to pass the sentence thence cited over Lastly that which is cited from his Book De cura pro mortuis I interpret thus Ut dum recolunt ubi sint pofita corum quos diligunt corpora cisdem Sanctis illos tantum patronos susceptos apud Deum adjuvandos orando commendent That whilest they call to mind where the bodies of those that are dear to them are laid they commend them to the Saints as to Patrons that by their prayers or praying for them they may be helped with the Lord and then the Argument is null Secondly They may very well be said to be commended to the Saints by praying to God for them either at the Monuments of the Saints and Martyrs or at the remembrance of the Saints and Martyrs for that Saint Austine speaketh of such prayers as were to be directed to God is evident from the very next Chapter where continuing his discourse he tells us that it very much concernes any where they place the body of their deceased who pray for his Spirit unto God because both the preceeding affection hath chosen an holy place and the body being placed there the remembrance of that holy place renews and augments the affection So then they do commend them by praying but it is to God not to Saints and Angels See Doctor Fernes Answer to Spencer P. 276. Nor is it any thing to the purpose that followeth viz. That whensoever the Mind recounts where the body of some dear friend lies buried and straight the place occurs renowned for the name of some Martyr the affection of him who thus remembreth and prayeth forthwith commends the beloved Soul to the same Martyr For this may be done by praying to God as we do for the help and assistance of the holy Angels that he would commend the Soul unto such a Martyr Secondly This prayer albeit poured out to God may be stiled a commendation of him to the Martyr because done at the Monument or remembrance of the Martyr even as Saint Austine in this very place tells us Meritis Martyris that the believing that the Soul is helped by the merits of the Martyr Supplicatio quaedam est is a kind of prayer and if any thing profiteth it is this We have two other Authours in the front Sect. 17 but the mischief is that they are both spurious Tom. 2. l. 8. de uno Med. c. 7. And 1. for Greg. Nyssen you have five Arguments produced against him by Chamier none of which are touched by Mr. C. or Bishop Forbs yea haply this was the reason that he cited him in gross and would not vouchsafe to direct us to the place Secondly As for that of Theodoret it is proved spurious not only because we have no mention of it in Nicephorus to whom you may add Photius but also because what is here cited from him directly contradicts what he hath in his undoubted Comment on the Colessians this Argument you manfully skip over and for your Answer to the first that he mentions not some which are extant in Gennadius if you had looked into the Preface of your Gennadius you might have found that there were some things added to him that he approves variety of Authours rejected by the Church that he is under the censure of your Catholicks at Lovain enough to crack his credit with you And lastly that he names but two of his Books one of which we have though imperfect the other is no where to be found And yet if all these Fathers had given in their suffrages for you they would not have advantaged you one whit Seeing many of our Divines acknowledge that about the fourth age in which all your Fathers are comprehended this corruption began to be introduced Albeit to tell you of it in transitu Vossius who is cited by you for this confession doth in his tenth Thesis manifestly restrain his words to some telling us that plurimi invalescenti se errori opponcbant p. 201. That very many opposed this errour The Doctor had cited a passage from Saint Austine Sect. 18 which affirmes that the Saints were not invoked by the Priest who sacrificeth Now to this you tell us First That here is an evidence for a sacrifice yea and this Propitiatory But how can you free your self from disingenuous dealing when even in the place cited by you in answer to this Argument Saint Austine tells you that he means onely Sacramentum Memoriae which Protestants acknowledge as well as you 2. Have you not need to rub your forehead when you so considently tell us that the Doctor saith there was no such thing as a Christian Sacrifice whereas that which hath given occasion to your whole Discourse upon this subject is onely this that he tells us there were new Articles of Faith viz. The Sacrifice of the Mass the Doctrine of Purgatory imposed on us but doth he any where deny a Christian Sacrifice such as before hath been granted by us by the Trent Conventicle Secondly You tell us that the Saints are not sovereignly invocated by way of sacrifice which is a meer impertinence for S. Austin doth not say they are not sacrificed unto but are not so much as invocated by the Priest who sacrificeth farther you tell us that they are not invocated at the Mass nay nor the second or third Person of the Trinity according to the Canon of the Council of Carthage Ans Still you are resolved to be impertinent for what is this to you who in your Mass invoke the whole Trinity have 3 Collects to the second Person of the Trinity as you are told by the Reverend Bishop Andrews yea what say you to that return of his to this Answer what reason can be alledged why if the Saints may be pray'd unto they may not be so as well by
to be done you must not be angry with Tertullian for saying you are superstitious Apolog. c. 30. Again when he had told us that Christians pray for the safety of the Emperour entreating for him quaecumque hominis Caesaris vota sunt he adds these things I may not ask from any other then from him from whom I know I shall obtain them because he it is who alone vouchsafeth them and I am his Servant unto whom it appertaineth to obtain what is requested Et ego sum famulus ejus qui eum solum observo Lib. de orat Dom. who observe or worship him alone viz. in my prayers and therefore he gave no heed to Saints and Angels in them Thirdly S. Cyprian informs us that to pray otherwise then Christ hath taught us is not only our ignorance but fault he having said you reject the command of God that you may stablish your own tradition Wherefore unless the Papists can shew us this doctrine taught by Christ we must esteem them ignorant and blame-worthy in the exercise thereof Fourthly When Celsus had said that Angels belong to God and in that respect we should pray unto them to be favourable to us 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 l. 8. Orig. Cont. Cels 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Origen answereth him away with Celsus his counsel saying that we must pray to Angels and let us not so much as afford any little audience unto it for we must pray to him alone who is God over all and we must pray to the word of God his only begotten and the first-born of all Creatures and whereas Celsus had further said that we must offer first-fruits unto Angels and prayers as long as we live that we may find them propitious unto us Answer is returned by Origen in the name of the Christians that they held it rather fit to offer first fruits unto him who said let the earth bring forth grass Gen. 1. the herb yielding seed that is to the Creator of the world and to whom we give the first fruits saith he to him also do we send our prayers having a great high Priest that is entered into the heavens Jesus the Son of God pag. 239. Again in his fifth book he lays down this conclusion All prayers and supplications and intercessions and thanksgivings are to be sent up unto God the Lord of all by the high Priest who is above all Angels being the Living word and God for to call upon Angels the like may be said of Saints departed we not comprehending the knowledge of them which is above the reach of man is not aggreeable to reason and if by supposition it were granted that the knowledge of them might be comprehended their very knowledge declaring their nature to us and the charge over which every one of them is set would not permit us to presume to pray unto any other but unto God the Lord over all who is abundantly sufficient for all by our Saviour the Son of God 5. Athanasius saith never any man prayed to receive any thing from God and the Angels or any created being l. 4. Cont. Arian the Papists say frequently Deus custodiat te Virgo Maria. neither did ever any body conceive such a form of prayer God and the Angel give thee such a thing but on the contrary he begs it from the Father and the Son by reason of their unity and uniform reason of giving 6. That of Saint Austins is very worthy to be pondered whom should I find that might reconcile me unto thee should I have gone unto the Angels he might as well have added Saints with what prayer with what Sacraments many endevouring to return unto thee and not being able to do it by themselves as I hear he then had no experience of it from the Churches practice have tryed these things and have fallen into the desire of curious visions and were accounted worthy of illusions 7. In Cap. 1. ad Rom. See an excellent place parallel to this in Arnob. adv Gentes l. 3. p. 101 102. Saint Ambrose or whoever was the Author of the commentaries upon Saint Pauls Epistles extant among his works saith those that are ashamed of their neglecting God are wont to use this miserable excuse that by those Saints or Angels we may go to God as to a King by his Officers go too saith he is there any man so mad or so unmindful of his safety as to give the kings honour to an Officer whereas if any shall be found but to treat of sucha matter they are justly condemned as guilty of high Treason and yet those men think themselves not guilty who give the honour of Gods name to a creature and leaving the Lord adore their fellow servants as though there were any thing more that could be reserved to God for therefore do men go to the King by tribunes or Officers because the King is but a man and knoweth not to whom he may commit the State of the Common wealth but to procure the favour of God from whom nothing is hid we need no spokesman but a devout mind for wheresoever such a one shall speak unto him he will Answer him So then to go to God by others is to neglect God and to adore our fellow creature it is a miserable excuse yea 't is to give the honour of God to a creature and so Idolatry a superfluous thing and consequently superstitious in those who esteem it necessary Farther Sect. 21 the Antients put God into the very definition or description of prayer and therefore cannot be thought to have esteemed it lawfull to pray to any other or to Saints whom they esteemed not to be Gods Orat. in Julit Mart. Orat. 1. de Or. thus Basil prayer is a request of some good thing which is made by pious men to God Greg. Nysen prayer is a conference with God and again it is a request of good things which is offered with supplication unto God Chrysost 2. de Orat. dom In Gen. Hom. 30 de Orat. l. 2. Prayer is a colloquy or discourse with God and again every one that prays discourseth with God and Damascene Prayer is an ascension of the mind to God as a request of things that are fit from God Again Sect. 22 they tell us that prayer is to be made to God alone and therefore not to Saints or Angels In Ps 5. ad Deum solum dirigitur Tom. 10. vide Forb confid mod p. 295. In 1 Cor. Hom. 1. thus to omit Saint Ambrose above cited Saint Basil saith Prayer is not directed to man but to God alone Saint Ephraim to the O Lord and to none besides thee do I make my prayer and further Chrysost on those words with all that call upon the name of the Lord giveth this Exposition not of this or that Creature but of the Name of the Lord. Again on these words do all in the name of the Lord
Jesus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 giving thanks or praying to God the Father by him he thus Paraphraseth do all things to God bring not in Angels doest thou eat give thanks to God or pray 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 See 1 Cor. 14.16 17. before and after meat doest thou sleep give thanks to God before and after and so in other things And that prayer is one of these things that must be done to God and not to Angels appears from that which follows Or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lat. orantem vel quidvis facientem whatever you do in word or deed that is saith he either praying or doing any other thing then presently after he tels us that it was the Devil that brought in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This Invocating and worshipping of Angels for he is speaking still of Prayer and this he did envying us that honour of going immediately to the Trinitie or Christ but saith he be he Angel or Archangel yea or Cherubin do not suffer it much less if he be a Saint only for they will not endure it but shake you off when they see this contumely done unto their Lord. I have honoured thee saith God and said call upon me à nd thou dishonourest him Viz. by invocating Angels or others besides him Sect. 23 Thirdly the Fathers argue that Christ is God blessed for ever because he is invocated by us and accepteth of our prayer and therefore could not invocate the Saints whom they esteemed not to be gods Thus Origen Saint Paul when in the beginning of the Epistle to the Corinthians L. 8. in Ep. ad Rom. c. 10. he speaks thus with all that call upon the name of Christ Jesus pronounceth Jesus Christ whose name is called upon to be God De Trin. c. 14. and Novatian If Christ be only Man why is a Man invocated in our prayers as Mediator seeing the invocation of a Man is judged of no force to yield salvations why is there Hope reposed in him seeing hope in man is said to be accursed so likewise Athanasius C. 16.23 in the place forecited Cyril of Alexandria upon that of Saint John If you ask any thing in my Name I will do it crieth out He clearly manifests himself to be God in that he promiseth to receive our prayers Theophilus Alexand. Paschae Sec. How will they call upon him in whom they have not believed We must therefore first believe that He is the Son of God that our invocation of Him may be right And as he is not to be worshipped who is not God So on the contrary He is to be worshipped who is manifestly so Yea the Council of Laodicea decreed that we ought not to forsake the Church of God Can. 35. S. 24. and depart aside and invocate Angels 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and make meetings which are things forbidden If any man therefore be found to give himself to this privie Idolatry let him be accursed because he hath forsaken our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God and betaken himself to Idolatry Some very wisely would read angulos corners and make the Councel forbid the invocating corners Brev. Can. S. 90 Cod. Con. num 138. Brev. Can. S. 184. Henric. Canis Tom. 6. p. 424. but the Greek expresly readeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which in that Tongue hath no affinitie at all with corners Cresconius Dionysius Exiguus Fulgentius Ferrandus and pope Adrian in the Epitome of the Canons which he delivered to Charles the Great at Rome readeth Angelos and Theodoret gives us the mind of the Synod thus The Synod of Laodicea following this rule viz. of the Apostle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 On the 3d. chap. of the Col. v. 17 On the 2d chap. Col. 3.17 of coming to the Father by Christ and not by Angels and desiring to heal that old Disease made a Law that they should not pray unto Angels nor forsake our Lord Jesus Christ And again The Synod forbad them by Law to pray unto Angels And Oecumenius saith The Synod of Laodicea did by Law forbid to come unto Angels and pray unto them Yea in that great Council of three hundred thirty eight Bishops at Constantinople l. 1. de Con. c. 6. which Binius and Bellarmine stile general these two Canons were fraâ—dulently inserted 1. Defin. 15. Conc. Const citat in Conc. Nic. 2. Act. 6. pag. 380. Ib. Defin. 17. Crakanth Def. Ec. An. pag. 420. Ab omnibus rejectum est For which the cites Paul Dial. l. 22. and again Omnes uno ore rejicerunt sanctorum invocationem Cannonem illum Notis in Con. Const sub Steph. 30. If any with a sincere Faith implores not the Intercessions of the Virgin Mary let him he Anathema 2. If any one shall not confess all the Saints to be Honourable before God and shall not entreat their prayers let him be Anathema But when the definition came to be read in the Council 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they rejected them and caused them to be blotted out and this saith the Conluter Act the 6th 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all men know yea further they bound their Members or themselves by an Oath Juramentum Sacro Sanctum solenne à suis exegerunt That they would never invocate the Saints Apostles Martyrs or the blessed Virgin as Binius relates Yea Lastly the greater part of the Fathers viz. Irenaeus l. 5. in fine Justine Martyr qu. 76. Tertull. ad Mar. l. 4. Clem. Rom. l. 2. Hypotepos Origen Hom. 7. in Lev. Lactantius l. 7. Institut c. 21. Victorinus Com. in Apoc. c. 6. Prudentius Hym. pro exequio defunct Ambrosius l. 2. de Cain Abel c. 2. Chrysostome Hom. 39. in 1. ad Cor. Austin in Ps 36. Euthymius in c. 23. luc Theodoret in cap. 11. ad Heb. Arethus in Apoc. Oecumenius in cap. 11. ad Heb. Cont. Whit. 1. c. 2. In part 2. direc inquis Com. 21. denied the souls of the Saints to have nay enjoyment of the beatifical Vision and this is acknowledged by their Stapleton and Franciscus Pegna and therefore these Fathers according to their own doctrine and practice of invocating only the Saints in Glory and the fruition of the beatifical Vision can not be reasonably supposed to have held the Invocation of Saints To Conclude I know what Distinctions they use of Prayer direct and indirect of prayer relative or terminative c. but First They are onely shifts to cover a desâ—erate cause the Fathers never used any one of them on this Occasion but reject this worship invocation without such distinctions even in those places where it seemed necessary to have used them had they been acquainted with this Sophistry yea Celsus and others intended no more Secondly These distinctions are equally serviceable for the evacuating the Fathers Argument hence for the Divinity Christ And Lastly are contradicted by the Fathers Let one Athanasius speak for all who not content to tell the
being conjoyn'd to his Brother He enjoyeth the pleasure of everlasting Life blessed are you both If my Oraisons can prevail any thing no day shall overslip you in silence no Oration shall pass you over unhonoured no night shall steal by wherein I will not bestow upon you some portion of my Prayers with all Oblations will I frequent you Onely the mischief is he doth not add till I find a Deliverance of you from Purgatory or any such words Indeed in his Oration on the death of the Emperour Theodosius he tells us that he will follow him to the Region of the living nor will he leave him till by his Prayers and tears he hath brought him into that place his deserts did challenge quò sua merita vocant viz. Into the Holy Mount of God where there was everlasting life where there was no Contagion of Corruption no sighings no grief no company of the dead doth he understand it of Souls then must none of the Souls of the dead be in heaven of bodies I hope our bodies must not go to purgatory with our souls But the Region of the Living where this mortall shall put on Immortality this Corruptible Incorruption But yet he presently tells us that Theodosius remains in light and glories in the companies of the Saints purgatory to be sure was a place that he had cause to glory of and enjoys rest for his soul they rest very quietly sleep in utramque aurem in purgatory Yea a little before he told us that he now enjoy'd Eternal Light I suppose as being enlightned by the fire of purgatory and continual tranquillity and for the things which he did in this body he rejoyceth in the fruits of Gods reward and was that think you purgatory and because he loved the Lord his God he hath obtain'd the society of the Saints But you will say If Saint Ambrose thought him in bliss or an happy State what is the meaning of his former words Ans You may see by what is said already that he cannot Intend to bring him out of purgatory by his prayers which is sufficient for me nor 2. Can he be supposed to weep for him till his mortal did put on immortality unless he thought he should live till the Resurrection or Theodosius rise before it Well then 3. Dally will tell you that 't is usuall in Scripture and Sacred Writers to speak of things as done which they were certain would come to pass So Isaac saith Gen. 27.37 I have made Jacob Esau's Lord and all his brethren his servants because he had foretold it would be so Even thus S. Ambrose saith he will never leave praying till the Emperours resurrection because he was sufficiently assured that God would raise him unto life Eternal and transser him to heaven Now then seeing 't is as clear as the Sun that Ambrose thought them both in Heaven or in Abrahams bosome viz. The Emperours Valentinian and Theodosius is it possible he should pray for their deliverance out of purgatory what good could they need besides that which he prays for a speedy resurrection who already enjoyed the pleasures of Eternal life If Eternal life be purgatory I will not give two pence for the Popes indulgences to be deliver'd from it This being so is not our Author a brave jugler who durst adde for deliverance to Saint Ambrose and that he might not be found out Cite neither place nor tell us of what Emperour whether Theodosius or Valentinian he meant it albeit he produceth the place only to prove that the Ancients thought the Souls departed to have some present refreshment which indeed they did allow to Saints supposed to be in Abrahams bosom And that from the company of Angels and Arch-angels and the vision of Christ which they were supposed to enjoy in those receptacles the increments of Divine light and joy which Ambrose speaks of He hath four places more out of Saint Austin in behalf of purgatory Sect. 14 Confes l. 9. c. 21 But the 1. where his mother begs that she may be remembred at the Altar falls strangely short of purgatory since I have made it appear that those who were suppos'd to be in Heaven were there remembred and this remembrance was made for divers other reasons Nor 2. Is there any thing in that which Saint Austine saith De cnra per mortem c. 5. we must by no means omit necessary supplications for the Souls of the Dead that repose might be obtained to them since 't is as clear as the Sun that they pray'd for repose to all the Servants of God departed and Saint Ambrose begs rest for the Emperour Theodosius of whom he tells us that he was in rest already Nor will the 3. place Cited out of his Enchiridion do him service viz. C. 110. That the Sacrifice is offer'd as a thanksgiving for Martyrs but as a propitiation for others For 1. It is evident that Saint Austine when he wrote this book was of Saint Chrysostoms opinion for as much as he tells us Eâ—ch c. 110. that these whom our suffrages do profit they do it either that they may have a full remission or a more tolerable damnation And then no wonder if he allowed the Sacrifice of the Eucharist or prayers to profit for the remission of sins 2. It might be offered for a propitation in respect of others and they not in purgatory but in Abrahams bosome as well as Saint Augustine might pray so earnestly for his mother that God would be propitious to her and yet she be in Abrahams bosom as above is manifested As to that 4. Instance which he calls convincing Ser. 32. de verbis Apost Note that this 32. Sect. is not to be found in the Index of Possidius the outmost that can be gathered from it is that in Saint Austin's and the Churches judgement it was not to be doubted that our Brethren were helped by these prayers so that God might deal with them more mercifully then their sins deserved and that prayers and offerings were made for them out of an intention of commending them to Gods mercy and what of all this For 1. Doth not the same Austine pray that God would deal more mercifully with his mother then her sins deserv'd did he not commend her to Gods mercy albeit he verily thought she was in Abrahams bosome 2. What is this more then what Saint Paul prays for Onesiphorus that he might find mercy in that day the day of Judgement and Saint Peter's speaking of sins to be blotted out at the day of our refreshment Well then they commended their brethren to Gods mercy as knowing that they deserved these punishments from which they could not be otherwise delivered then by the clemency and mercy of God which is very true and yet makes not at all for purgatory and indeed their prayers for pardon of sins was only thus that God would at the last day proclaim them pardon'd and would not cast them
to your precept And in the Feast of Saint Peter and Paul to Saint Peter they pray much after the same manner and yet the Scripture puts the question Who can forgive sins but God Mar. 2.7 Secondly They pray to them for Grace and Glory * Ps 56. Lady in thy name let me be safe and free me from my unrighteousness have mercy upon me and cleanse me from all mine iniquities and again * Ps 27. 50. Dissolve the Bonds of mine iniquities Take away the bundles of our sins purge my soul from its filth * Ps 3. 87. By thy Holiness are my sins purged * Ps 44. Thou art the beginning and end of my whole salvation totius salutis meae c. * Ps 41. * Ps 136. By her are sins purged by her is made true satisfaction for sins c. whereas 't is Gods propriety to be the God of all Grace Thirdly they pray for these things upon the account of the merits of the Saints Thus the Roman Breviary By the merits of Saint Franciscus April 2. Let us enjoy our promised rewards and grant that by the merits of Saint Peter and Saint Paul we may attain to eternal Glory July 6. That by the merits of Saint Nicholaus the Church may enjoy perpetual peace by the intercession of the merits of Saint Basil Sept. 10. Let us be absolved from allour sins and to the blessed Virgin Mary Jan. 14. By thee let the wrath of God be averted from me appease him by thy merits and again By the blood which Saint Thomas shed for thee Ps 72. make us to ascend that Heaven whither Thomas is ascended and this is consonant to that of Bellarmine Prec ad usum Sacrum in fest Th. Becket who tells us that it is lawful to pray unto the Saints even for salvatian and other spiritual blessings if so be we understand it thus that they should impetrate them by their merits Now if this be not derogatory to the Merits of Christ to have veram satisfactionem de'peccatis to have Grace and Glory purchased by the blood and merits of others let any unreasonable Man judge Section 4th and 5th Sect. 3 Our Authour affords us some considerations from which I suppose he would infer the lawfulness of this practise and first saith he we may beg prayers from one another as Saint Paul himself did from the Ephesians and others c. 6.19 c. 2. Thes 3.1.4 Col. 3. where he bids the Brethren pray for him Answer Very good but yet we dare not beg from these our Brethren Grace Glory pardon of sins nor say with the Roman Breviary to the Virgin Mary We flye unto thee O Virgin Mary for thy defence and for as much as being conscious of our great offences we fear the wrath of a severe Judge whom we dare not see We flye unto thee his Mother that thou wouldst intercede for us unto God excuse our sins and obtaining for its the Grace of thy Omnipotent Son procure us the pardon of what ever we have committed Secondly He tells us such begging of prayers is far from Idolatry or diminution to Christ since holy persons living or dead are not invocated as donors but fellow beggars with God for us Answer Why then doth your Breviary talk so often of procuring Grace and Glory and the pardon of sins by the merits of the Saints Why do you tell us that by the Holiness of the Virgin Mary are your sins purged That she is the beginning and end of your salvation that she hath made true satisfaction for us are these things no diminution to Christs merits and satisfaction to procure mercy for us upon these scores is this to procure it as fellow bâ—eggars Thirdly say you the refusing of the assistance of those whose prayers God more willingly hears is a neglect of using all means helpful to us Answer True but if the neglect of this Invocation of Saints be the neglect of any means thus helpful then were the Apostles negligent in giving us no intimation of our duty in this particular Yea the Saints of God for some thousand of yeares under the Old Testament and the Primitive Church for 300 years must be accused of this negligence for of their practise in this case nullibi vola nec vestigium Scripture and Histories afford us no one Tittle but pregnant Evidence to the contrary But you proceed Mr. C. S. 5. If the praiers to Sts. departed be prejudicial to the merits intercessions of our Lord Sect. 4 so is the beging of the prayers of those alive if one be unlawful so is the other and if both be lawful the prayers of Saints departed will be incomparably more effectual and therefore will better deserve to be made use of then the other Answer Is it not then a wonder that Saint Paul if he may be permitted to have known as much as Mr. C. should thrice call upon his Brethren alive for their supplications and yet not put up one Petition to a Saint or Angel Secondly We know it is the duty of living Saints to pray for one another but whether the Saints departed pray at all whether for any in particular and how far we know not We know a certain way to excite the Saints on earth to the performance of that Duty in reference to us but we are ignorant of any way of conveighing our desires to the Saints in Heaven We have Rule President and Command in Scripture for the first not one jot of all these in reference to the second the Requests we make to the living are no elicite Acts of Religion the requests made by the Romanist to the Saints departed are We pray to the living neither directly nor indirectly but desire them only by vertue of our Communion with them to assist us in their prayers as we might ask an Alms or any other good turn at their hands the Saints departed are by you directly invocated and in your devotions you immediately step from God and Christ unto a Saint We do not plead the merits of our Brethren nor bid them do so in our behalf you do both in reference to the Saints departed we do not kneel to our Brethren or ly prostrate before them on these accounts we do not invoke them in our Churches insert them into our Liturgies believe them to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 any way or that we are committed to their care or custody all this you do believe in inreference to the Saints departed Is not this therefore a very good Argument if the prayers made to Saints departed by the Romanists wherein they beg of them Grace and Glory and all spiritual good things trust in their Patronage plead for audience on the account of their merits be prejudicial to the merits of satisfaction and intercession of our Saviour or otherwise unlawful then must the asking of my brothers prayers in spight of all these differences be
the Priest as by the people as well at Mass as at Mattins as well at the Altar as in the body of the Church Indeed you tell us it might have been lawful if the Church had so ordered it But do you think S. Austin would have said so too is it not his business to distinguish betwixt the honour which was given to the Martyrs by the Christians and by the Gentiles to the Daemons and having said that they erect no Altars to them as the heathens did for sacrifice but sacrificed to God alone he adds that at this sacrifice the Martyrs were not invocated as the Gentile Daemons were but only nominated now what is it to his purpose to tell us they are not invocated at the Altar if they were invocated elsewhere well then your last refuge is the invocation of Latria which Saint Austin must be thought to speak of C. 21. because he tells us in his twentieth Book against Faustus Manichaeus that they do not worship the Saints with Latria Ans But who told you that invocation of them was not esteemed Latria by him why else doth he say that the Saints were not worshipped sicut dii as the Heathen Gods and then after this non invocantur Secondly Doth he not say non invocantur sed nominantur now I hope your invocation is not nomination and therefore 't is somewhat above it and consequently somewhat comprehended in that which he opposeth to it so likewise in the place you cite he tells us they afforded that cultum dilectionis and such as was given to holy men that were now alive yea saith he we sound forth their praises but we do not worship them with Latria where albeit Faustus there objected that they worshipped them votis similibus with such prayers or vows as the heathens worshipped their Idols with yet could he not get Saint Austin to acknowledge they prayed unto them at all but having told us that they praised them there he stops and riseth no higher albeit the objection and the business in hand which was to shew what honour the Saints did receive from them and what they thought not fit to yield unto them did require it Thus have we returned an Answer to our Authours pleas from Scripture and Antiquity our next work should be to confront to them those many arguments by which our Champions do confute this superstition and plead the cause of Christ against them but I shall wave it at present and content my self with evidencing the judgement and practice of Antiquity to run contrary to them And 1. Sect. 19 It is a strong presumption that this Invocation of Saints is not so pious so profitable as the Trent Council doth imagine in that we find neither precept nor example of all the Fathers of the Old Testament whereby this kind of service to them may be warranted To this the usual Answer of the Papist is Vid. Bellar. praefat in controvers de Eccles triumph ante that the spirits of the Patriarchs and Prophets and other Worthies who flourished under the Old Testament were kept in limbus patrum a place nigh to hell appointed for these Fathers to be retained in till the descent of our Blessed Saviour thither But this Answer is evidently grounded upon a false foundation it being clear from Scripture that they were not included in such a place but did enjoy the Kingdome of Heaven Luk. 13 28. For Abrahams bosom is clearly propounded as the place into which the Blessed Angels before the death of Christ convey'd the souls of those which departed in the favour of God Luke 16. and that this bosome is virtually and in terms equivalent Cap. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Shall ly down promised to those which afterwards should believe is sufficiently evinced from that place of Saint Matthew many shall come from the East and West and shall sit down with Abraham Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of heaven for the joys of heaven are likened to a feast in which according to the custom then in use they lay down with the head of one towards the breast of another who is therefore said to lie in his bosom and therefore when 't is said of the faithful that believed after Christs death 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they shall lie down at this feast with Abraham 't is as much as if he had said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as Euthymius paraphraseth it that is they shall lie down in the bosom of Abraham adde to this that when God translated Enoch and Elias was carried up in a Chariot to heaven they could not be conveyed to this limbus patrum a place so nigh to the receptacle of the damned spirits yea 't is not likely they were conveyed to a place where they had no vision of God and yet there is no reason to think Abraham David Daniel and other of the Prophets should be in a worse place or condition then Enoch or Elias seeing they had as large a testimony of their pleasing God as they We go farther yet and urge against them Sect. 20 that in the New Testament it self we can descry no footsteps of this Invocation more then we did in the Scriptures of the Old Saint Paul doth frequently sollicite his brethren to pray for him and for the furtherance of the Gospel P. 1. but not one petition can we find directed to an Angel or Saint departed here presently they flie to their traditions but in vain for if any such tradition as this were at first delivered we demand how it should come pass that for the space of 360 years together after the birth of our Saviour we can find no mention in the Fathers of any such thing but on the contrary when urged by heathens that it was their duty to pray to Saints and Angels they stoutly denied it and cried away with such evil counsel Irenaeus in his first book speaks of Hereticks that had strange phansies concerning Angels attributing much unto them in relation to which he denies that the Church did any thing l. 2. c. 57. viz. in reference to miraculous cures by invocation of Angels or by incantations but purely and manifestly directing prayers to the Lord which made all and invocating the name of our Lord Jesus Christ now whereas Fevardentius tells us that he speaks of the invocation of evil spirits we ask him why then is it that no limitation is given but all Angellical invocation absolutely denied why is it that he binds up the prayers of the Church to God the Father through the name of his Son Lib. de Orat. cap. 12. Tertullian saith we deservedly upbraid those prayers with vanity which are made without the Authority of any precept of our Lord or his Apostles for such are rather to be esteemed superstitious then Religious shew us then a precept of our Lord or his Apostles and we will cease to impeach your practice as superstitious vanity but seeing that is impossible