away have made shipwrack of their faith This is frequently affirmed amongst the Fathers see S. Aug de gratia lib. arbit de correp gratia ad articulos We hold that God did never inevitably damn any man before he was born or as you say from all eternity you say he did we have Scripture for what we say Wis 1. 13. God made not death neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living 1 Tim. 2. 34. God our Saviour who will have all men to be saved 2 Pet. 3. 9. The Lord is not willing that any should die but that all should come to repentance and if you will not believe when he saies so believe him when he swears it As I live saith the Lord I doe not delight in the death of a sinner The Fathers are of our opinion S. Aug. lib. 1. Civit. Dei Tertul. Orat. cap. 8. Saint Cypr. lib. 4. Epist 2. and Saint Amb. lib. 2. de Cani Abel We hold that no man ought infallibly to assure himselfe of his salvation you say he ought the Scripture saith we ought not 1 Cor. 9. 27. S. Paul was not assured but that whilst he preached unto others he himselfe might become a cast-away Rom. 11. 20. Thou standest in the faith be not high-minded but fear c. least thou also maist be cut off Phil. 2. 12. Worke out your salvation with fear and trembling The Fathers are of our opinion Amb Ser. 5. in Psal 118. S. Basil in Constil Monast chap. 2. S. Hier lib. 2. Advers Pelagian S. Crysost Hom. 87. in Joan. S. Aug in Psal 40. S. Bernard Ser. 3. de Advent and Ser. 1. de Sept. saith Who can say I am of the Elect We say that every man hath an Angel guardian you say he hath not we have Scripture for it viz. Mat. 18. 10. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones for I say unto you that in heaven their Angels doe alwaies behold the face of my Father Acts 12. 13. S. Peter knocking at the door they say it is his Angel they believed this in the Apostles time the Fathers believed it along S. Greg. Dial. lib. 4. cap. 58. S. Athanas de Communi Essentia S. Chrys Hom. 2. in ep ad Colos lib. 6. de Sacer. Greg. Turonens lib. de gloria Martyr S. Aug. ep ad Probam cap. 19. and S. Jer. upon these words Their Angels Mat 17. 10. calls it a great dignity which every one hath from his Nativity We say the Angels pray for us knowing our thoughts and deeds you deny it we have Scripture for it Zach. 1. 9 10 11 12. Then the Angel of the Lord answered and said O Lord of Hosts how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the Cities of Judah against whom thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years Apoc. 8. 4. And the smoake of the incense of the prayers of the Saints ascended from the hand of the Angel before the Lord. This place was so understood by Irenaeus lib. 4. cap. 34. and S. Hillary in Psal 129. tells us This intercession of Angels Gods nature needeth not but our infirmities doe So S. Amb. lib. de viduis Victor utic lib. 3. de persecutione Vandalorum We hold it lawfull to pray unto them you not we have Scripture for it Gen. 48. 16. The Angel which redeemed me from all evill blesse these lads c. Hosea 12. 4. He had power over the Angel and prevailed he wept and made supplications unto them Saint Augustine expounding these words of Job 19. 21. Have pitty upon me O ye my friends for the hand of the Lord is upon me saith that holy Job addressed himselfe to the Angels We hold that the Saints deceased know what passeth here on earth you say they know not we have Scripture for it Luke 16. 29. where Abraham knew that there were Moses and the Prophets Books here on earth which he himselfe had never seen when he was alive The Fathers say as much Euseb Ser. de Ann. S. Hier. in Epit. Paulae S. Maxim Ser. de S. Agnete We say they pray for us you not we have Scripture for it Apoc. 5. 8. The twenty four Elders fell downe before the Lambe having every one of them Harpes and golden Viols full of odours which are the prayers of the Saints Baruch 3. 4. O Lord Almighty thou God of Israel hear now the prayers of the dead Israelites The Fathers were of this opinion S. Aug. Ser. 15. de verbis Apost S. Hilar. in Psal 129. S. Damas lib. 4. de fide cap. 16. We hold that we may pray to them you not we have Scripture for it Luke 16. 24. Father Abraham have mercy on me and send Lazarus c. You bid us shew one proof for the lawfulnesse hereof when here are two Saints pray'd unto in one verse and though Dives were in Hell yet Abraham in Heaven would not have expostulated with him so much without a non nobis Domine if it had been in it selfe a thing not lawfull You will say it is a parable yet a jury of ten Fathers of the grand inquest as Theophil Tertul. Clem. Alex. S. Chrys S. Jer. S. Amb. S. Aug. S. Greg. Euthem and Ven. Beda give their verdict that it was a true History but suppose it were a parable yet every parable is either true in the persons named or else may be true in some others The Holy Ghost tells no lies nor fables nor speaks not to us in parables consisting either of impossibilities or things improbable Job 5. 1. Call now if there be any that will answer thee and to which of the Saints wilt thou turne It had been a frivolous thing in Eliphaz to have asked Job the question if invocation of Saints had not been the practise of that time The Fathers affirme the same S. Diony c. 7. S. Athan. Ser. de Anunt S. Basil Orat. 44. in Mat. S. Chrys Hom. 66. ad Popul S. Hier. pray'd to S. Paula in Epitaph S. Paulae S. Maximus to S. Agnes Ser. de S. Agnete S. Bern. to our blessed Lady We hold Confirmation necessary you not we have Scripture for it Acts 8. 14. Peter and John prayed for them that they might receive the holy Ghost for as yet he was fallen upon none of them onely they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Then laid they their hands on them and they received the holy Ghost Where we see the holy Ghost was given in Confirmation which was not given in Baptisme also Heb. 6. 1. Therefore leaving the principles of the Doctrine of Christ let us go on unto perfection not laying againe the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith towards God of Baptisme and of Laying on of hands The Fathers affirme the same Tert. lib. de Resurrect Carn S. Pacian lib. de Bapt. S. Amb. lib. de Sac. S. Hier. Cont. Lucif S. Cypr. lib. 2. Ep. 1. speaking both of
which she heard the Scripture expressely saying v. 14. that she knew Peters voyce On the otherside if a Heavenly Angell be there meant it seemes to imply that they supposed the Angell that garded Peter and therefore is called his Angel to represent the person of Peter and to assume his voyce which conceit seemes very uncouth However if such an Angell be there meant yet onely this can be inferred from thence that Peter had his Angell to guard him but it followes not that therefore he had an Angell proper and peculiar to himselfe and that only one certaine Angell was appointed his guardian Neither doe the Fathers that are cited so far as I can see speake home to the point in question Gregory of whom mention is first made is here so impertinently alledged that I suppose there was some oversight in it For hee speakes nothing at all of the Angels guarding men but onely of their being present at the celebration of the Eucharist which is nothing to our present purpose Athanasius who is mentioned next saith onely that there are some supercaelestiall powers qui apud homines permanent that doe abide with men and are hominum paedagogi mens instructors or governours but of particular Angels belonging to particular men hee speakes nothing Chrysostome in one place which the Marquesse quoteth speakes of the Angels being present when the Eucharist is celebrated and of their conveying to Heaven the soules of such as immediately before their death with a pure conscience received that Sacrament which hee saith one told him that saw it but to the question now agitated I finde not that hee saith any thing in that place Indeed Hom. 3. not as it is misquoted Hom. 2. in Coloss hee citeth Mat. 18. 10. and saith Every Believer hath an Angell but this doth not necessarily import that each Believer hath his peculiar Angell What Gregorious Turonensis saith whose testimony is the next wanting his works I cannot yet examine The next after him is Austine but he is mis-alledged viz. Epist ad Probam cap. 19. Whereas there are but 16. Chapters in that Epistle which is wholly about prayer and hath nothing that I finde about Angels The last witnesse is Hierome who saith indeed Great is the dignity of soules that every one from his birth hath an Angell appointed to keepe him But it doth not appeare that he thought every one to have his peculiar Angell The contrary rather appeares by that which hee addes immediatly after viz. that hereupon Iohn Revel 2. 3. was bidden to write to the Angell of Ephesus Thyatira Philadelphia and the other foure Cburches there mentioned Though Hierome doe mis-interpret the Angels there spoken of in the Revelation and therefore both hee and some others of the ancients are in this rejected by Ribera yet thereby we may perceive that he did not hold every one to have a peculiar Angell but one Angell to be for a whole Church If it be said that there by Angell he meant Angells the singular number being put for the plurall the same may be said concerning the other words which are objected But enough of this point there is more controversie about those that follow We say saith the Marquesse the Angells pray for us knowing our thoughts and deeds you deny it We have Scipture for it Zach. 1. 9 10 11 12. Then the Angell of the Lord answered and said O Lord of hostes how long wilt thou not have mercy on Ierusalem and on the Cities of Iudah against whom thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten yeares Apoc. 8. 4. And the smoak of the incense of the prayers of the Saints ascended from the hand of the Angell before the Lord. This place was so understood by Irenaeus lib. 4. cap. 34. and S. Hilary in Psal 129. tells us This intercession of Angels Gods Nature needeth not but our infirmities doe So S. Ambrose lib. de viduis Victor Utic lib. 3. de persecut Vandal Answ Had the Marquesse onely said that the Angels know our deedes and pray for us there had beene little cause to oppose but whereas hee saith that they know our thoughts that may not bee granted the Scripture making this Gods Prerogative For thou even thou onely knowest the hearts of all the children of men 1 Kings 8. 39. Theophylact therefore upon Luke 5. 22. saith that CHRIST proved himselfe to be God by this that as it is there said hee knew mens thoughts And the same also is observed by Iansenius in his Comment upon the place For that in Zach. 1. 12. some by the Angell there spoken of understand Christ the Angel or Messenger of the Covenant as he is called Mal. 3. 1. But others understand a created Angell viz. the Angell that talked with the Prophet Zachary and thence observe that the Angels pray for the Church This seemes more probable by the words immediately following And the Lord answered the Angell that talked with me v. 13. In the other place viz. Revel 8. 4. Ribera telleth us that many thinke the Angell there mentioned to be Christ And though he dislike that Exposition yet it is more then probable by that which is said v. 3. There was given him much incense that he should offer it with the prayers of all Saints c. For what can we well understand by that incense but Christs Merit and Meditation whereby the prayers of the Saints are acceptable and well pleasing unto God For the Fathers alledged Irenaeus speaketh not either of this Angell spoken of Revel 8. 4. or at all of Angells praying for us All that he saith is that there is an altar in Heaven to which our prayers must be directed and then hee cites Iohn saying in the Revelation that the Temple and Tabernacle of God was opened but this is nothing to the point in hand Hilary is truly cited speaking of the intercession of Angels he saith that not Gods Nature but our infirmity doth stand in need of it But as I said before I see not why wee should deny that the Angels pray for us for it doth not therefore sollow that wee may pray to them which is the next point to be considered Yet I should have liked it better if Hilary had grounded himselfe upon that place of Zachary which the Marquesse produced then that hee should build upon the Booke of Tobit as also doth Ambrose Ser. 92. for I finde nothing this way in the place which the Marquesse quoteth that Booke as Hierome long agoe hath censured it being Apocryphall and of no authority for the determining of matters of this nature What the last Author saith viz. Victor Vticensis being not furnished with his Booke I cannot tell neither is there neede to inquire after him hee being alledged for no more then Hilarie and hee asserting no more then I thinke may be granted But from the angels praying for us the Marquess passeth to
not so boldly say unto all the Saints pray for us but would sometimes desire of God to reveale our prayers unto them And for the other Opinion which remaines hee sayes no more but onely that it is probable So that wee see by our adversaries owne confession they have no certainty of this that the Saints in Heaven are particularly acquainted with things here on Earth Some may say that they are certaine that it is so though they be uncertain how it comes to be so I answer indeed if the Scripture did affirme that so it is then wee might and ought to be assured of it though wee could not see why it is so But the Scripture is so farre from affirming it that it denies it as I have shewed and therefore they that maintaine it must both answer the Scripture where it is denied and also by Scripture prove the contrary assertion which they neither doe nor can doe That place cited by the Marquesse viz. Luke 16. 29. is not of force to prove it For 1. Some Romish Expositors and namely Iansenius doth confesse that it is doubtfull whether that which is spoken of the rich man and Lazarus and so of Abraham be any more then a Parable and if it be a History and a Narration of a thing done yet this hee saith must needs be confessed that all things did not happen so as they are related For that it is certaine that the rich man being in Hell did not speake with a Tongue nor with bodily Eyes did see Abraham and Lazarus in his bosome nor did complaine of the scorching of his Tongue nor did desire water to cole it Therefore hee saith Christ did accommodate himselfe to our capacity and declare the things of the life to come after the manner of the things of this life so that those things are to be understood allegorically and spiritually whether it be a bare Parable or a true History And for the words objected he sheweth that they are more easie to be understood if this part of Scripture be taken not for a History but onely for a Parable For then it may be said that Christ did feigne these things which were not done indeed onely to instruct and admonish those that are alive that they should not think to excuse their impenitency by this that they were never informed of the estate of the life to come by any that did returne from it That men might not thinke thus he saith that Christ did bring in the rich man desiring Abraham to send Lazarus to his Brethren that so he might also bring in the answer of Abraham who was of great authority among the Jewes by which answer that conceit is reproved and confuted For Abraham confuting that opinion of the common sort of people answered If they heare not Moses and the Prophets neither will they believe although one should arise from the dead Thus then that place doth not evince that Abraham knew that the Jewes had the writings of Moses and of the Prophets 2. Suppose that part of Scripture to be a History and that Abraham did indeed know that the writings of Moses and the Prophets were upon the Earth yet it doth not therefore follow that hee knew all the severall things done amongst men What God would please to reveale hee might know but how much that is who can tell yea the Romanists themselves do hold that neither Abraham nor any other during the time of the old Testament did understand the estate of men here alive Although the ground of this opinion of theirs be not good viz. because as then they did not enjoy the blessednesse of the life to come yet however this is sufficient to extort from them this place of Luke and to shew that they by their own principles can draw no argument from it for their Purpose For the Fathers which the Marquesse alledgeth I can onely looke into Hierome as being destitute of both the other But I have here and continually almost cause to complaine of the Marquesses quotations they being so wide as here and in many other places they are For there are 14. Chapters of this booke of Hierome that is mentioned but in which of these Chapters any thing to the purpose is to be found is not expressed yet with much adoe I finde that Hierome seemeth to suppose that Paula being dead knew this estate But I finde in another place viz. Adversus Vigilantium cap. 2. that Hierome makes the Saints departed to be every where and by consequence to know what is done any where But Bellarmine likes not to build upon such a foundation confessing that truly and properly to be every where is a thing that doth not belong either to the soules of men or to the Angels From the knowledge which the Saints deceased are pretended to have of our affaires the Marquesse passeth to their praying for us This hee proves by Revel 5. 8. The 24. Elders fell downe before the Lambe having every one of them Harpes and golden Vials full of odours which are the prayers of the Saints And by Baruch 3. 4. O Lord Almighty thou God of Israel heare now the prayers of the dead Israelites Hee addes also the testimonies of Aug. Ser. 15. de verb. Apostoli Hilar. in Psal 129. and Damas de Fide l. 4. c. 16. Ans That the Saints in Heaven do not pray for us in particular appeares by what hath beene proved already viz. that our particular affaires are not knowne unto them That they pray for us in generall Protestants doe not deny about this wee doe not contend saith Amesius against Bellarmine And Bellarmine himselfe cites the Apology of the Augustane Confession granting thus much that the Saints in Heaven doe pray for the Church in generall But for that place Revel 5. 8. I see not how it makes for the purpose For neither doth it appeare that the 24. Elders there mentioned are the Saints departed nor if they be is it said that they pray for the Church here upon Earth Indeed the Rhemists upon the place say Hereby it is plaine that the Saints in Heaven offer up the prayers of faithfull and holy persons in Earth c. And hence they infer That the Protestants have no excuse of their errour That the Saints have no knowledge of our affaires or desires But there is no such thing as they speake of plaine by this place of Scripture except to use the Marquesses words it be margin'd with their own notes senc'd with their own meaning and enlivened with their own private spirit They take it for granted as the Marquess also doth after them that the Saints in Heaven are meant by the 24. Elders and that the Saints after mentioned are the Saints upon Earth whereas the former of these is so farre from being evident that their own Jesuite Ribera doth tell us that Concerning the 24 Elders the opinion of the Fathers
and of Expositors is so various that the more one reades them the more uncertaine he shall be And among other opinions hee faith that some by the 24. Elders understand the whole Church This Exposition indeed he dislikes upon this ground that the foure beasts spoken of are not comprehended in the 24. Elders But he enervates this reason himselfe understanding by the 24. Elders the most eminent among the Saints in Heaven and by the foure beasts the foure Evangelists who yet are of the number of those eminent Saints and so the foure beasts are also part of the 24 Elders onely hee saith they are mentioned apart by themselves as being out of that number because besides the excellencie which is common to them with others they have some excellency which is proper and peculiar to themselves By the thred of his own Exposition it appeares that his argument is of no force why the 24. Elders may not signifie the whole Church And although hee make it to be without doubt that the 24. Elders doe offer up the prayers of other Saints viz. which are upon Earth yet when it is said that the 24. Elders had golden Vialls full of odours which are the prayers of the Saints Revel 5. 8. I see not but that by the Saints there may be understood the 24. Elders themselves as well as any others If other Saints be meant distinct from the 24 Elders Master Medes Exposition seemes probable that by the 24 Elders are meant Ministers and by the foure beasts the rest of Gods people and so here by the Saints whose prayers are offered up by Ministers who in the publike Assemblies are the mouth of the people and offer up their prayers unto God for them But how ever it be thus much may sufficiently appeare by what hath beene said that the Romanists can evince nothing from this Scripture as to this point that the Saints in Heaven doe understand the particular estate of men here upon Earth and pray for them For the other place alledged viz. Baruch 3. 4. I give this answer that the Booke is not Canonicall the Jewes to whom were committed the oracles of God viz. the Scriptures of the old Testament Rom. 3. 2. Luke 16. 29. not owning it as is observed by Hierome who therefore did let it passe as himselfe testifieth For the Fathers that are cited Austine de verb. Apost Ser. 15. hath nothing that I see to the purpose Neither hath Hilary in Psalme 129. any thing about the Saints praying for us but onely about the Angels carrying the prayers of men unto God which hee fetcheth from the Booke of Tobit but to that I have spoken before Indeed in another place viz. upon Psalme 124. which Bellarmine produceth hee saith that neither the guards of the Saints nor the Munitions of Angels are wanting unto us But I see not how any more can be inferred from this then that the Saints doe in generall pray for us which wee doe not deny Neither doe the words of Damascen in the place quoted import more then thus when he saith that the Saints departed make intercessions for us and that therefore they are to be honoured by us This may well be understood of their praying in generall for us A little before indeed hee hath that which doth not sound well viz. that every good gift doth come downe from the Father of lights by them viz. the Saints departed to those that aske in faith without doubting The Scripture teacheth us no such thing concerning the Saints but attributeth this honour unto Christ that by him we obtaine of God whatsoever is good and needfull for us He that spared not his own Son but delivered him up for us all how shall he not with him also freely give us all things Rom. 8. 32. But Damascene though a man famous in his generation yet is of no great antiquity being as Bellarmine computes 731 years after Christ and therefore his testimony is of the lesse force besides that some of the Romanists namely Sixtus Senensis doth note him as in some point of faith erroneous viz. about the proceeding of the holy Ghost But at length the Marquesse comes to our praying to the Saints that being the marke aimed at a long time Wee hold saith hee that we may pray unto them you not we have Scripture for it Luke 16. 24. Father Abraham have mercy on me and send Lazarus c. You bid us shew one proofe for the lawfulnesse hereof when here are two Saints prayed unto in one Verse And though Dives were in Hell yet Abraham in Heaven would not have expostulated with him so much without a non nobis domine if it had beene it selfe a thing not lawfull You will say it is a parable yet a jury of ten Fathers of the grand inquest as Theophil Tertull. Clem. Alex. S. Chrys S. Ier. S. Amb. S. August S. Greg. Euthym. and Ven. Beda give their verdict that it was a true History But suppose it were a parable yet every parable is either true in the persons named or else may be true in some others The holy Ghost tells us no lies nor fables nor speakes not to us in parables consisting either of impossibilities or things improbable Job 5. 1. Call now if there be any that will answer thee and to which of the Saints wilt thou turne It had been a frivolous thing in Eliphaz to have asked Job the question if invocation of Saints had not beene the practice of that time The Fathers affirme the same S. Dionys cap. 7. S. Athan. Ser. de Annunt S. Basil Orat. de 44. Martyr S. Chrys Hom. 66. ad Pop. S. Hierome prayed to Paula in Epitaph S. Paulae S. Maximus to S. Agnes Ser. de S. Agnete S. Bern. to our blessed Lady Answ This point of praying to Saints the Marquesse it seemes made great account of in that he bestowed so many words about it but the unlawfulnesse of this practice is cleare enough by that which I have said before about praying unto Angels For I have demonstrated both by authority of Scriptures and also by testimony of Fathers that prayer is to be made unto God onely And if the Saints doe not know our affaires here below as I have shewed that they doe not then it must needs be absurd and irrationall to pray unto them Yea although we should but onely desire them to pray for us as here we desire the prayers one of another But whatever our Adversaries sometimes may pretend yet they are farre from contenting themselves with this liberty though it be more then is allowed them Their praying unto the Saints is a worshipping of them as I have shewed before by their own confession Bellarmine also tells us that when they say the Saints are onely to be requested to pray for us they doe not meane but that we may say S. Peter have mercy on me save me open an entrance into
doe rather call for our care and diligence to suppresse them For answer unto this I grant that the prevailing errours of the times are mainly to be opposed yet as our Saviour said in another case this ought to be done and the other not to be left undone Yea Popery is the grand evill that doth infest the Church and by how much it is the more inveterate the more diffused by so much the danger of it is the greater and it requires the more opposition There is also a speciall warning to come out of Babylon Revel 18. 4. and certainly it will availe us little to come out except we also keepe out of it And if we would keep our selves out of Babylon we must keepe the Babylonish Doctrine from finding entertainment with us This will aske no little care no humane policy in the world I think being greater then that which is used either for the supporting of that doctrine where it is or the introducing of it where it is not embraced Shall we thinke that the Romanists are idle in these busy times Though few doe shew themselves as the Marquesse did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with open face yet we may well suspect that many are working so as that by how much they are the lesse conspicuous by so much they are the more dangerous And as David in a certaine case said to the woman of Tekoah Is not the hand of Joab with thee in all this So in respect of that heape of heterodox opinions that is among us may it not be said Is not the hand of a Iesuite in all this Diverse Pamphlets in these times have admonished us to beware and among the rest one intituled Mutatus Polemo what ever the Authors designe were doth speake not a little to this purpose Before these trouble some times began some have either expressed as Mr. Archer or intimated as Mr. Mede that in their opinion Popery shall yet againe for a while universally prevaile in those Countries and Nations out of which it hath bin expelled If this be so as for any thing I see I may hope the contrary may it not be feared that as those many Antichrists as they are called 1 Joh. 2. 18. that is those many heretikes that were in the primitive times did make way for the rise of that great Antichrist so these in our times may make way for the restauration of him And whereas we have heard long since of Romes Master-peece I see not how any Romish designe can better deserve this title then so to debase the Ministery and to decry learning as the practice of many is in these times Hoc Ithacus velit hoc magno mercentur Atreidae The Chieftaines of the Church of Rome can desire nothing more then that among their adversaries the Ministery should be cast down and learning overthrown For then why should they doubt but that they may soon reduce all unto them none being now of any competent ability to oppose them It is observed by those that are acquainted with Ecclesiasticall History that when Learning was the lowest then Popery got to be highest as the one decayed so the other was advanced and on the otherside that the restauration of good literature did make way for the Reformation of Religion Surely if Popery overspread againe barbarisme and illiteratenesse is a most likely means to effect it Neither are the Papists I suppose lesse politick and wise in their generation then Julian the Apostate was who could see no fairer way whereby to re establish Gentilisme then by indeavouring to devest Christians of Learning a thing so vile and odious that Ammianus Marcellinus himselfe though a Pagan and a great admirer of Julian was ashamed of it and shewed great dislike of Julian for it calling it a cruell part and a thing to be buried in perpetuall silence But I have held Thee Reader longer then I did intend I will preface no further but praying unto the Lord to preserve his Church from errors without and to purge it from errors within I rest Thy Friend and lover in the truth C C. The CONTENTS of the FIRST PART OF THE REIOYNDER 1 OF the marks of the true Church which they of the Church of Rome assigne as Universality Antiquity Visibility Succession of Pastors unity in Doctrine and the Coversion of Nations Page 107 to 114 2 Of having recourse unto the Scriptures in matters that concern Religion 114 115 116 3 Of relying either on Fathers singly and severally considered or on a generall Councel 116 117 118 119 4 That the Apostles as Pen-men of the Holy Ghost could not erre 120 5 Of the easiness and plainness of the Scriptures 120 121 6 Of the presence of Christ in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper 122 to 140 7 Whether the Church hath any infallible rule besides the Scripture for the understanding of Scripture 140 to 147 8 Againe of the Scriptures being easie to be understood 147 148 9 Whether the Church can erre or not 148 to 152 10 Againe of the Visibility of the Church 152 153 11 Of the Universality of the Church 153 to 158 12 Of the unity of the Church in matters of faith 158 159 13 Of Kings and Queens being Heads or Governours and Governesses of the Church within their Dominions 159 160 14 Of the Ministers power to forgive sins 159 as 't is misprinted to 162 15 Of confessing sins to a ghostly Father 162 to 172 16 Of works of Superogation 172 to 176 17 Of Free-will 176 to 195 18 Of the possibility of keeping the Commandements 196 to 201 19 Of Justification by faith alone 201 to 211 20 Of Merits 211 to 216 21 Whether justifying faith may be lost 216 to 221 22 Of Reprobation 221 to 239 23 Of assurance of Salvation 239 to 251 24 Whether every Believer hath a peculiar Angel to be his guardian 251 to 254 25 Of the Angels praying for us and knowing our thoughts 254 255 256 26 Of praying to the Angels 256 to 261 27 Whether the Saints deceased know our affairs here below 261 to 266 28 Of the Saints deceased praying for us 266 to 269 29 Of praying to the Saints deceased 269 to 276 30 Of Confirmation whether it be a Sacrament properly so called 276 to 281 31 Of communicating in one kinde 281 to 287 32 Of the sacrifice of the Masse as they call it or whether Christ be truly and properly offered up and sacrificed in the Eucharist or Lords Supper 287 to 296 33 Whether Orders or rather Ordination be a Sacrament of like nature with Baptisme and the Lord Supper 296 to 301 34 Of Vows of chastity and of the Marriage of Ecclesiastical persons 301 to 318 35 Of Christs descending into Hell 319 to 340 36 Of Purgatory 340 to 355 37 Of extreme Unction 355 to 363 38 Of the saying of Austine Evangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae Authoritas commoveret I should not believe or should not have
shall we not say repentance is a Sacrament If Christ blesseth little children and saith Suffer them to come unto me and forbid them not shall we not say that such confirmation is a Sacrament Truly I doe not understand their meaning They have taken away five which five either by God or Christ or the holy Ghost who are all one were instituted and yet they say they are not Sacraments because they were not instituted by Christ And the two that are left viz. Baptisme and the Lords Supper for the first you hold it necessary to Salvation and for the second you do not admit the reall presence so that of the two remaining you have taken away the necessity of the one and the reality of the other so farwell all Now for Purgatory I do believe we have as good ground for it out of this place of Scripture viz. He shall be purged yet so as if it were by fire as you can prove a Hell out of this place of Scripture He shall be cast into utter darknesse and into the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone where shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth Neither can you make more exceptions to our inference out of this place of Scripture to prove Purgatory then the Atheist if wits may be permitted to roame in such things as these once setled and believed generally will find ground enough to quarrell at your burning lake and the vaine Philosopher Contradictions enough in the description of the effects of those hellish Torments viz. weeping and gnashing of teeth the one having its procedure from heat the other from cold which are meer Contradictions and therefore fabulous take heed we doe not take away Hell in removing of Purgatory You see not how your laughing at Purgatory hath caused such laughing at Hell and Devils untill at last you shall see them bid the Heavens come down and pluck the Almighty out of his Throne If a Text of Scripture with the Churches Exposition be not sufficient for a man to rest both his Science and Conscience upon I know not where it will find a resting place it may shoot at Randome but never take so right an ayme and for the silver hooke you talk'd of I do not justifie the abuse of any I know there is a great difference betweene the Court of Rome and the Church of Rome and if these Errours were in the Church it selfe yet the tares must not be hastily pluckt out of the field of the Church lest the wheat be pluckt up with it Now for our praying to Saints there is no body that prayes to any Saints otherwise then as we on earth desire the benefit of one anothers prayers We do not believe that they can help us of themselves or that they have power to forgive sin but we believe that they are nearer to God his favour and more deare unto him and therefore we believe that he will heare them with or for us sooner then he will hear us when we pray upon our own account as we desire the prayers of some good and holy man whom we believe to be so hoping it will be a benefit unto us All that can be said against it is that they do not hear us I will not trouble Your Majestie with the Schoolmens Speculum Creatoris but I shall desire to be plaine When there is joy in heaven over every sinner that repenteth do you think that the Saints which are there are ignorant of the occasion of that joy or do they rejoyce at they know not what If the Saints in heaven do crie How long Lord how long holy and just dost thou not avenge our bloud upon them which dwell upon the earth if they know that their bloud is not yet avenged do they not know when a sinner is converted and if they know the time of conversion do they not know the time of prayer If Abraham knew that there were such men as Moses and the Prophets who was dead so many hundreds of years before their time can we say that they are ignorant think ye that those ministring Angels who are called Intelligencers give them no intelligence or that they gather nothing of intelligence by looking him in the face who is the fulnesse of knowledge and to all these the practice and opinion of so Catholick a Church God can onely forgive sins Christ can onely mediate but Saints whether in heaven or on the earth may intercede for one another Lastly for our worshipping of Images confounded be all they that worshipped them for me God is onely worthy to be worshipped but if I kneel before the Picture of my Saviour I worship him kneeling before his Picture the worship is in the heart and not in the knee and where the true God is in the intention there can be no Idolatrie O Sir Christian Religion is not a Protestation but a Gospel it would better consist with unity then opposition we hold it a peece of popery to knock our owne breasts with the fists of constitution whilst we hold it most Evangelicall to knock at our neighbours with a Cunstables staffe a pious care in a Mother Church labours to educate her own daughter and having fed her at her owne breasts all the gratitude she returns her mother is to call her whore Antichrist Babylon and all the spitefull and vile names that can be imagined they forget that saying of the Apostle St. James If any man among you seeme to be religious and bridleth not his tongue but deceiveth his own heart that mans Religion is in vaine Pure Religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this to visit the fatherlesse and widows in their affliction and to keep himselfe unspotted from the world What should I say more the Scriptures are made a nose of wax for every bold hand to wring it which way he pleaseth they are rejected by private men by whole books The Articles of our Creed are said not to be of the Apostles framing the Commandments not belonging to Christians impossible to be kept the Sacraments denied Charity not onely grown cold but quite starved and they will be sav'd by meanes quite contrary to what the Gospel which they seeme to professe sets down viz. by Faith without good works onely believe and that 's enough whereas the holy Apostle St. James tells us that faith profiteth nothing without good works Here the Marquesse was going on and His Majestie interrupted him King My Lord you let a flood-gate of Arguments out against my naked breast yet it doth not beare me any thing backwards you have spoken a great many things that no way concerns Us but such as we find fault with as much as you and other things to which I could easily give answer If I could take but some of that time and leasure that you have taken to compose your Arguments It is not onely the Picture of our Saviour but the Pictures of Saints which you both worship and adore
Succession In the Cities of Judah and Jerusalem There is Universalitie so Demetrius urged Antiquity and Universality for his godde 〈…〉 viz. That her Temple should not be despised 〈…〉 Magnificence destroyed whom all Asia and the world worshipped So Symachus that wise Senator though a bitter enemie to the Christians Servanda est inquit tot seculis fides sequendi sunt nobis parentes qui feliciter sequuti sunt suos we must defend that Religion which hath worne out so many ages and follow our Fathers steps who have so happily followed theirs So Prudentius would have put back Christianity it selfe viz. Nunc dogma nobis Christianum nascitur post evolutos mille demum Consules Now the Christian Doctrine begins to spring up after the revolution of a thousand Consul-ships But Ezekiel reads us another lecture Ne obdurate cervices vestras ut patres vestri cedite manum Iehovae ingredimini sanctuarium ejus quod sanctificavit in seculum colite Iehovam Deum vestrum Be not stiff-necked as your fore fathers were resist not the mighty God enter into his Sactuary which he hath consecrated for ever and worship ye the Lord your God Radbodus King of Phrygia being about to be baptized asked the Bishop what was become of all his ancestors who were dead without being baptized The Bishop answered that they were all in hell whereupon the King suddenly withdrew himselfe from the font saying Ibi profecto me illis Comitem adjungam Thither will I go unto them no lesse wise are they who had rather erre with fathers and Councels then rectifie their understanding by the word of God and square their faith according to its rules Our Saviour Christ saith we must not so much hearken to what has been said by them of old time Mat. 21. 12. as to that which he shall tell you where Auditis dictum esse antiquis is exploded and Ego dico vobis is come in its place which of them all can attribute that credit to be given unto him as is to be given to Saint Paul Yet he would not have us to be followers of him more then he is a follower of Christ 1 Cor. 11. 1. Wherefore if you cry never so loud Sancta mater Ecclesia sancta mater Ecclesia the holy mother Church holy mother Church as of old they had nothing to say for themselves but Templum Domini Templum Domini the Temple of the Lord the Temple of the Lord we will cry as loud againe with the Prophet Quomodo facta est meretrix Urbs fidelis how is the faith full City become a harlot if you vaunt never so much of your Roman Catholick Church we can tell you out of Saint John that she is become the Synagogue of Sathan neither is it impossible but that the house of prayers may be made a Den of theeves you call us hereticks we answer you with Saint Paul Act. 24. 14. After the way which you call heresie so worship we the God of our fathers believing all things which were written in the Law and the Prophets I will grant you that all those marks which you have set downe are marks of the true Church and I will grant you more that they were belonging to the Church of Rome but then you must grant me thus much that they are as well belonging to any other Chucch who hold and maintaine that Doctrine which the Church of Rome then maintained when she wrought those conversions and not at all to her if she have changed her first love and fallen from her old principles for it will do her no good to keep possession of the keyes when the lock is changed now to try whether she hath done so or no there can be no better way then by searching the Scriptures for though I grant you that the Catholick Church is the White in that Butt of earth at which we all must aime yet the Scripture is the heart centre or peg in the midst of that white that holds it up from whence we must measure especially when we are all in the white We are all of us in gremio Ecclesiae so that controversies cannot be decided by the Catholick Church but by the Scriptures which is the thing by which the nearenesse unto truth must be decided for that which must determine truth must not be fallible but whether you mean the consent of Fathers or the decrees of generall Counsels they both have erred I discover no Fathers nakednesse but deplore their infirmities that we should not trust in armes of flesh Tertullian was a montanist Cyprian a rebaptist Origen an Anthropomorphist Heirom a Monoganist Nazianzen an Angelist Eusebius an Arrian Saint Augustine had written so many errors as occasioned the writing of a whole booke of retractations they have often times contradicted one another and sometimes themselves Now for generall Counsels Did not that Concilium Ariminense conclude for the Arrian heresie Did not that Concilium Ephesinum conclude for the Eutichian heresie Did not that Concilium Carthaginense conclude it not lawfull for Priests to marry Was not Athanasius condemned In concilio Tyrioi Was not Eiconolatria established In concilio Nicaeno secundo What should I say more when the Apostles themselves lesse obnoxious to error either in life or doctrine more to be preferred then any or all the world besides one of them betraies his Saviour another denies him all forsake him They thought Christs Kingdome to have been of this world and a promise onely unto the Jewes and not unto the Gentiles and this after the resurrection They wondered that the holy Ghost should fall upon the Gentiles Saint John twice worshipped the Angel and was rebuked for it Apoc. 22. 8. Saint Paul saw how Peter walked not uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel Gal. 2. 14. Not onely Peter but other of the Apostles were ignorant how the word of God was to be preached unto the Gentiles But who then shall rowl away the stone from the mouth of the monument Who shall expound the Scriptures to us one puls one way and another another by whom shall we be directed Scinditur incertum studia in contraria vulgus You that cry up the Fathers the Fathers so much shall hear how the Fathers doe tell us that the Scriptures are their owne interpreters Irenaeus who was scholler to Policarpus that was schollar to Saint Iohn lib. 3. cap. 12. thus saith Ostentiones quae sunt in Scriptur is non possunt ostendi nisi ex ipsis Scriptur is the evidences which are in Scripture cannot be manifested but out of the same Scripture Clemens Alexandrinus Nos ex ipsis de ipsis Scriptur is perfectè demonstrantes ex fide persuademus demonstrative Strom. li. 7. Out of the Scriptures themselves from the same Scriptures perfectly demonstrating doe we draw demonstrative perswasions from faith Crysost Sacra Scriptura seipsam exponit auditorem errare non sinit Basilius Magnus Quae ambiguè quae obscurè videntur
have seene that in the judgement of Athanasius hee would not then surely neither was it such an Angell of whom he himselfe did seeke to be blessed And Hierome upon the words of Hosea saith plainly that this angell is God None of the Fathers are here alledged against us but onely Austine whom I have shewed to testifie abundantly for us That which hee saith in the place quoted is that Iob seemeth to desire the angels to intreat for him or else some of the Saints But Pineda a Jesuite doth not like this Exposition but calles it allegoricall and expoundes it as it ought to be expounded of those friends of Iob that disputed with him If our adversaries shall reply that though Austine did not rightly expound the words of Iob yet however hee shewed it to be his opinion that the angells might be prayed unto I answer first Austine here maketh as well against them as against us For he speakes as much of Iobs praying unto Saints as unto angells now our adversaries hold as I shall shew more hereafter that in those times before Christs comming the Saints were not to be prayed unto Again Austine doth not say that Iob did pray either to Saints or angels but that hee desired yea onely that hee seemeth to have desired that they might pray for him Thirdly for one place wherein Austine speaketh obscurely and doubtfully for praying to angels wee have many plaine and evident testimonies of his against it as before I have shewed Lastly Austine himselfe hath taught us to believe neither him nor any other further then they accord with the Scriptures but that we may saving the reverence that is due unto them dissent from them when as they dissent from the truth Thus he saith he did in respect of the writings of others and so he would have others to doe in respect of his writings From the Angels the Marquess passeth to the Saints deceased saying We hold that the Saints deceased know what passeth here on Earth you say they know not we have Scripture for it Luke 16. 29. where Abraham knew that there were Moses and the Prophets bookes here on Earth which he himselfe had never seene when he was alive The Fathers say as much Euseb Ser. de Ann. S. Hiero. in Epit. Paulae S. Max. Ser. de Agnete Answ That the Saints deceased doe not know the particular affaires of men here on Earth the Scripture doth teach us Iob. 14. 21. His sonnes come to honour and he knoweth it not and they are brought low but he perceiveth it not of them There Iob speakes indefinitely of a man departed out of this life whether he be Saint or no Saint and sheweth that he doth not so much as understand the estate of such as had most neare relation unto him and how then shall we perswade our selves that hee doth understand the estate of others And from those words Isai 63. 16. Abraham is ignorant of us and Israel knoweth us not Austine doth inferre that the Dead are not acquainted with the affaires of the Living If not our parents saith hee what other dead persons know what we doe or suffer If so great Patriarkes Abraham and Jacob knew not how it fared with those that did descend from them how doe the dead intermeddle in knowing and helping the affaires of those that are alive For my part I thinke that place of Esay not so pertinent to the purpose but that the meaning of it is that the people of Israel were so degenerate that Abraham and Israel if they knew what manner of persons they were would not own them not acknowledge them for their posterity yet however Austine sheweth what his Opinion was concerning those that are deceased viz. that they are ignorant of the things that are done here which is evident enough by those words of Iob before cited Bellarmine sayes that Gregory upon the place doth answer that naturally the dead know not how it fares with the liking but that yet the Saints being glorified doe see in God all things quae nimirum ad ipsos pertinent viz. which doe belong unto them But Gregory upon those words of Iob saith thus As they that are alive know not where the soules of the dead are so they that are dead know not how they live that are after them Indeed hee addes presently after This yet is not to be thought of the holy soules because they that see the brightnesse of Almighty God are by no meanes to be thought ignorant of any thing besides Therefore he understands Iob as speaking onely of such dead persons as are unholy whereas indeed Iobs words are indefinite and indifferently to be understood of all that are dead except by speciall Revelation any thing done here below be made known unto them Thou destroyest the hope of man v. 19. viz. his hope of continuing here in this life Thou changest his countenance and sendest him away v. 20. This holdes in respect of all and then followes His sonnes come to honour and hee knoweth it not c. v. 21. So that the coherence of the words shews that they are meant generally of all that are deceased And that which Gregory saith of the Saints that seeing God in him they see all things Bellarmine himselfe it seemes did thinke too lavish and therefore he limits it to all things which concerne them or belong unto them Which limitation doth indeed mar his market for how doth it appeare that it belongs unto the Saints departed to understand particular occurrences here below and namely all the prayers that any shall make unto them which is the scope that they of the Church of Rome aime at when they speake of the Saints knowing things here on Earth but of that more God willing hereafter But for the Saints knowing our affaires it was it seemes in the time of Lombard above 1100 years after Christ a point not much believed For Lombard moving the question saith onely this It is not incredible that the soules of the Saints enjoying the vision of God doe understand humane and earthly affaires so far as concernes their joy and our helpe Hee doth not say that this is certaine but onely that it is not incredible And Bellarmine himselfe relating foure severall opinions about the manner how the Saints know things here upon Earth of two of them viz. that they know them by the relation of Angels or by being after a sort every where present hee saith plainly that neither of them doth satisfie and gives convincing Reasons for it And for the other two opinions viz. that the Saints from the beginning of their blessednesse doe in God see all things that any way appertaine unto them Or that God doth then reveale things unto the Saints when any at any time doe pray unto them hee likes not the latter of these because hee saith If the Saints did neede a new revelation upon every occasion the Church would
Heaven for me give me health of body give me patience courage c. So that we understand it thus Save me and have mercy on me by praying for me give me this or that by thy prayers and merits But what is this but to displace Christ and to set up Saints in his roome Their Pope Leo cited by their Cassander concerning this same point hath taught a better lesson saying The Saints have received not given crownes and by the fortitude of Believers we have examples of patience not gifts of righteousnesse This Cassander cites shewing how ill it suites with the Romish practice which hee although a Romanist complaines of as too exorbitant Bellarmine takes it very ill that Calvine sayes they pray unto the Virgin Mary to command her Sonne with great indignation hee cries out Who of us doth say this Why doth hee not prove it by some example But the forementioned Cassander plainly shewes that Calvin did not charge them in that manner without cause For saith hee it is come to that passe that Christ now reigning in Heaven is made subject to his Mother as they sing in some Churches Pray the Father and command the Son O happy child bearing woman who doest expiate wickednesse by the authority of a Mother command the Redeemer Hee tells us also that as Ahasuerus told Esther he would give her half of his Kingdome if she would aske it so some famous men among them say that Gods Kingdome consisting of Judgement and Mercy God hath indeed given halfe of his Kingdome to the Virgin Mary viz. that part which consisteth in mercy reserving the other part unto himselfe viz. that which consisteth of judgement Whereby they intimate that who so desires mercy must seeke to the Virgin Mary for it otherwise hee can expect nothing but judgement And as Cassander also complaines all Davids Psalmes they as they call it instead of Lord putting in Lady and attributing that unto the Virgin Mary which David attributeth unto God As for example Lady in thee have I put my trust In the Lady do I trust Save me O Lady for I have trusted in thee To thee O Lady have I lift up my soule In thee O Lady have I trusted let me never be confounded Iudge me O Lady and discerne my cause O Lady thou art our refuge in all our necessity Have mercy on me O Lady which art called the Mother of mercy and according to the bowels of thy mercies cleanse me from all mine iniquities Powre out thy grace upon me and withold not thy wonted clemency from me And so all along throughout all the Psalmes it runs after this manner May we not now most justly apply that to the Romanists which Ambrose spake of the Heathens They thinke themselves not guilty who give the honour of Gods Name to the creature and leaving the Lord adore their fellow-servants as if there were any thing more that might be reserved for God Now for the Marquesses proofes I marvell hee should stand so much upon that in Luke 16. 24. For 1. Chemnitius sayes well Wee will not learne how to pray of the damned whom God hath cast off and who are in eternall despaire And againe Let them pray as that rich man did who would be heard and helped as he was 2. Whereas the Marquesse bringeth in a jury of ten Fathers to prove that this Scripture is no Parable but a History why should wee be any more moved in this case with their verdict then Iansenius a Romanist was who as I have shewed before thought it more probable that it is no History but a Parable or at least a History related after a parabolicall manner Theophlylact also saith expressely that it is a Parable and censures them as voide of understanding who take it for a History His reason I grant is not good viz. that as yet neither the just nor the unjust doe receive their reward And yet that assertion of his also is advantagious unto us in this point For our Adversaries hold as hath beene noted before that therefore in the time of the old Testament there was no praying to the Saints departed because the Saints then as they say were not in blisse and so could not heare the prayers that should be made unto them Now Theophylact held that the Saints in the time of the new Testament are not in blisse untill the last judgement and the same was the opinion of many other Fathers I know Bellarmine doth indeavour to free both Theophylact and the rest interpreting them as if they meant onely in respect of full and perfect blisse both in soule and body But others of the Roman Church doe confesse that it was their opinion that the soules of the righteous doe not enjoy the beatificall vision untill the day of judgement Sixtus Senensis doth cite Irenaeus Iustine Martyr Tertullian Origen Chrysostome Lactantius Ambrose Austine Theodoret Theophylact Bernard and others as being of this opinion and therefore by our adversaries owne principles they could not rightly hold the Invocation of Saints deceased But to returne to that Scripture Luke 16. Iustine Martyr as hee is cited by Bellarmine denies that it is a true History Chrysostome also saith plainly that it is a Parable Hom. 1. de Lazaro And yet hee is one of the Fathers whom the Marquesse alledgeth to the contrary I know not what that meaneth which the Marquesse saith every parable is either true in the persons named or else may be true in some others For we do not finde persons named in any parable besides this which is the maine if not onely argument which is used to prove it a History rather then a Parable though Iansenius did not thinke this to be a convincing argument and he shews two reasons why the poore man was named and not the rich viz. 1. To teach us that God regardes the poore that are righteous more then the rich that are wicked 2. Because when one is commended it is meete to name him but not so when one is condemned And both these reasons hee saith stand good whether this narration be onely a Parable or a History It is certaine the holy Ghost tells no lies nor fables c. Parables are not false nor fabulous yet Theophylact saith well We must not take all things that are spokken in Parables as Lawes and Canons So Maldonate thought meete often to admonish this as a thing most safe that Parables are not to be handled too strictly that they are often broken by handling and that here that doth happen which is said in the proverbe the too much wringing of the nose bringeth forth blood The other place viz. Iob 5. 1. is very inconveniently alledged by the Marquesse for invocation of Saints deceased Bellarmine was more wary in citing it onely to prove that Angels whom hee there understands by Saints may be invocated These words saith he shew that it
was the custome then to call upon the holy Angels for their patronage But to say as the Marquesse doth that it appears by these words that they used then to call upon the Saints departed is contrary to the tenet of the Romanists who hold that during the time of the old Testament praying unto the deceased Saints was not in use because then the Saints that departed out of this life as they hold did not goe to Heaven nor enjoy happinesse But the truth is those words Iob 5. 1. Call now c. and to which of the Saints wilt thou turne make neither for the invocation of Saints nor of Angels the meaning of Eliphaz being onely to convince Iob that none is punished as he was except he were wicked and therefore he bids him shew any of the Saints if hee could that was so punished as hee was For this was the error of Eliphaz and the other two friends of Iob that they thought Iob could not be a godly man because God did so afflict him Therefore God said his Anger was kindled against them because they had not spoken of him the thing that was right Iob. 42. 7. For the Fathers which are here objected the first viz. Dionys is cited cap. 7 but of what For hee wrote diverse Bookes But his testimony is of little worth it being uncertaine who hee was and when hee lived and this being evident to all that have any the least taste of him that hee was not as is pretended that Dionysius that is mentioned Acts 17. 34. which his fustian and bombast-stile doth sufficiently declare The next is Athanasius but I finde no such peece as Ser. de Annunt either in his workes as they are extant both in Greeke and Latine nor in Bellarmines Index or Catalogue of them which he hath in his Booke of Ecclesiasticall writers If perhaps the Marquesse meant Ser de Sanctissimâ Deiparâ Bellarmine in that same booke censures it as not belonging to Athanasius but to some other long after his time and in some thing as it seemes not very sound Basil I have not to peruse nor Maximus Chrysostome in the place quoted viz. Hom. 66. de Pop. Antioch doth indeed seeme to speake for praying unto Saints to pray for us But wee must remember how hee is reckoned among them who held that the Saints departed are not yet in glory and therefore if the Romanists will have him speake agreably to this position they must not have him for a patron in this cause touching the invocation of Saints And upon the same ground must they also let goe Bernard who is likewise noted for the same opinion though the truth is hee lived in very corrupt times and therefore it is no marvell if hee did draw some dreggs it is indeed a marvell that hee was not more corrupted and infected then he was There remaines onely Hierome who in the end of his Epitaph or Funerall Oration concerning Paula addresseth his speech unto her bidding her farwell and helpe him with her prayers But 1. I have shewed before that Bellarmine doth overthrow the foundation that Hierome buildes upon viz. that the Saints departed are every where and so can heare and understand whatsoever any stand in need of and desire of them which Bellarmine confesseth to be incompetible to any meere creature as indeed it is this being a property that belongs unto God only 2. When the Fathers sometimes speak in that manner to the Saints deceased their speeches proceeded rather from affection then from judgement and are Rhetoricall rather then Theologicall expressions As appeares by that of Gregory Nazianzen who in his first Oration against Iulian speakes thus unto Constantine who was then dead And heare O thou soule of the great Constantine if thou hast any sense or understanding of these things Where the Greeke Scholiast notes that Nazianzen did imitate Isocrates a Heathen Oratour This is spoken saith hee in imitation of Isocrates as if he should say If thou hast any power to heare the things that are here spoken And observe how Nazianzen whom Hierome calleth his Master spake doubtfully making it a question whether the Saints departed doe understand things here upon Earth 3. Austine who lived in the same time with Hierome in his booke of true Religion speaking of the Saints deparred saith plainly They are to be honoured for imitation but not to be worshipped for Religion And in the last booke of that famous worke intituled Of the City of God in the tenth Chapter of it speaking of the Martyrs hee saith that in the celebration of the Eucharist they were mentioned in their place and order viz. to praise God for them and to stir up others to the imitation of them but yet that they were not invocated and that no prayers were put up unto them This may suffice to shew how farre in this point they of the Roman Church are departed both from the Rule of Gods Word and also from the judgement and practice of the ancient Fathers We hold saith the Marquesse Confirmation necessary you not We have Scripture for it Acts 8. 14. Peter and Iohn prayed for them that they might receive the holy Ghost for as yet he was falne upon none of them onely they were baptized in the Name of the Lord Iesus then laid they their hands on them and they received the holy Ghost Where we see the holy Ghost was given in Confirmation which was not given in Baptisme Also Heb. 6. 1. Therefore leaving the principles of the Doctrine of Christ let us goe on unto perfection not laying against the foundation of Repentance from dead workes and of Faith toward God of Baptisme and of laying on of hands The Fathers affirme the same Tertul. de Resur S. Pacian de Bapt. S. Amb. de sacr S. Hierome contra Lucif S Cypr. l. 2. Ep. 1. speaking both of Baptisme and Confirmation saith Then they may be sanctified and be the sons of God if they be borne in both Sacraments Answ Concerning Confirmation the Romanists make it a Sacrament properly so called of the same nature with Baptisme and the Lords Supper The matter of this Sacrament they make to be a certaine Ointment compounded after a speciall manner and consecrated by a Bishop wherewith the person to be confirmed is anointed in the forehead in the forme of a crosse The forme of the Sacrament they make to consist in these words I signe thee with the signe of the Crosse and confirme thee with the Chrisme or ointment of salvation in the Name of the Father and of the Sonne and of the holy Ghost The effect of this Sacrament they say is to confer true sanctifying grace and that more abundantly then Baptisme doth in respect of the strengthening of the soule against the assaults of Satan Now this Confirmation Protestants deny to be a Sacrament as having no institution nor any ground for it in the Scripture The