Selected quad for the lemma: saint_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
saint_n	ancient_a	church_n	rome_n	1,643	5	6.6367	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41388	Firmianus and Dubitantius, or, Certain dialogues concerning atheism, infidelity, popery, and other heresies and schisme's that trouble the peace of the church and are destructive of primitive piety written in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians / by Tho. Good.	Good, Thomas, 1609-1678.	1674 (1674)	Wing G1029; ESTC R23950	83,883	174

infirmities is the same Strong Handsome Healthy Man that he was when at twenty five or thirty years old Dub. Thô I have sometimes much reverenced the Church of Rome for her antiquity yet now I begin to doubt that there are many diseases in the body of that Church many wrinkles in her face which were not from the beginning but not withstanding those infirmities 't is the same true Church as 't was at the first plantation as the old decrepite man is the same man that ever he was for substance Firm. I deny not but that the Church of Rome is in some sence the same it first was in respect of divers Articles it holds but in respect of those gross errours it now maintaines 't is no more like what it was then the old decrepite diseased man is like what he was in his younger dayes Dub. Your comparison is very good and apposite to the present Church of Rome which past dispute is full of dangerous and desperate diseases as I in part do apprehend I pray you proceed to my other motive Firm. The Church of Rome is not so universal as her disciples boast of neither in respect of place or time 1. 'T is the observation of a learned man that if the world were divided into 30 parts 19 of them are heathens 6 Mahometans and 5 Christians of which the Papists are not the one halfe as Mr. Breirwood in his Enquires does demonstrate 2. As to the universality of time the Church of Rome cannot deduce her present tenents from the beginning of Christianity through the several ages or Centuryes that it has continued a Church from the first preaching of the Gospell I deny not but that 't is the same for purity of Doctrine as once it was is most false for the antient Church of Rome never taught worshiping of images praying to Saints that monstrous transubstantiation halfe Communion Praier in an unknowne tongue and many more Groundless fopperies against Scripture the general consent of fathers common sence and reason Dub. All this I am inclined to believe but how could these errours creepe into a Church which did so punctually observe the traditions of their forefathers what the Church of Rome now believes and teaches it received from the Church that was in the next age before it that from the Church next before it and so quite down to the Apostles times as the Author of the Dialogues betwixt the Vnckle and the Nephew hath most learnedly demonstra●ed Firm. Truly very learnedly even as Zeno proved there was no locall motion you have heard how Diogenes confuted him by an ocular demonstration were not the Scribes and Pharises great pretenders to a Strict observation of the traditions of their fathers And yet we know how grosly they had corrupted the law of Moses as is evident by our Saviours confutation of them Mat. 5. and in severall other places Dr. Crakan●thorp and other Learned pr●●●stants do evidently shew the beginning the progress of the Corruptions of the Church of Rome the manner of their spring and Growth but Suppose we cannot punctually t●ll the beginning and progress of such and such an errour shall we therefore believe it to be no errour you walk sometimes in the fields 't is evident to your eyes that the Grasse a●d graine do grow though you do not see them move at all sometimes you visit a friend that is sick of a languishing consumption you see by infallible symptoms that your friend is in a desperate Condition will you not believe him to be so because you cannot tell the time when or the manner how his disease came upon him Dub I cannot be so unreasonable and by what you have said my third reason falls to the Ground for the present Church of Rome has no agreement with the primitive but is extreamly opposite to it in the points before named besides many others I pray let me hear what you can say against their unity for they seem to be firmly united under one infallible head the Pope Firm. Truely Sir they do but seem so for they are miserably divided in the great fundamentall of their faith their infallibility and are not they very unjust to us to exact our beliefe of that which they themselves know not where to find for some of them tell us 't is fixed to the Popes chair some say 't is to be found in a Generall Councell ot●●rs believe it to be in neither but in both united together others would perswade us that 't is in the whole body of the Church so that if you seek after this pretty knack of infallibillity you will be abused as young apprentices are used to be in great Cittys and corporations who in waggery are sent from shop to shop for a penyworth of Ell-broad Packthred or a pound of stock-fish Tallow or a Lefthanded Shuttle after these poore novices have been sent from one end of the Citty to the other they returne home without such ridiculous Commodities and are sufficiently exposed to laughter and derision There 's scarce a Controversy in all Bellarmin's voluminous workes wherein he recites not the different opinions of the Roman Catholicks among themselves insomuch that this great Cardinals workes were not to be bought in Rome as Sir Edw Sandyes reports in his Europa speculum because he had so imprudently discovered the nakednesse of his mother in point of unity To say nothing of the contentions betwixt the Thomists and Scotists Ochamists c 't is pleasant to see how sweetly the Dominicans Franciscans Iesuites Molinists Iansenists Regulars and seculars agree together Though a laté Pope durst be so bold as to decide a Controversy for the Molimists against the Iansenians and so that which was none before very luckily became an article of Faith such is the Popes omnipotent Power that he can create Articles of Faith out of that which was a pure no●-entity a very nothing in the primitive times yet I heare that the Iansenists are so saucy as to continue very Iansenists still notwithstanding his holinesses in●allible determination Dub. I see there is no such unity in the Church of Rome as they bragg of I desire to heare what you can say against the Sanctity of their Doctrine Firm the Sanctity of their Doctrine referrs to that of Faith and Manners for that of Faith which is briefly comprehended in the Apostles Creed or any other Doctrinall poynt contained in holy Scripture expressly or by good consequence deduced from thence by the generall consent of Fathers we allow of but as for popish additions of new atticles by Pope Pius the 4. and the councell of Tr●nt that are against Scripture and can never be justified by the generall consent of the ancient Doctors of the Church we reject as false and consequently not Holy this I suppose you will dem●ns●rate when you please to give me the reasons which made you forsake the present Church of Rome As to their Sa●ctity of manners their

introduced that it should be received by the Preists only in both kinds by the people in one is not this with the Socinians to make the Sacraments mere indifferent Ceremonies alter able at the Churches pleasure But the Councell of Trent flyes higher if any man shall say that all faithfull Christians by Gods Command or for necessity of Salvation ought to Receive the Sacrament in both kinds let him be acursed I wonder whether Pope Gelasius sate in or was out of his infallible Chair when he roundly said we find that some do abstain from the Chalice of the Sacred Blood let them receive the entire Sacrament or be kept from the whole because the division of one and the same mystery cannot be without grand Sacriledge Either the Pope was not infallible or the present Church of Rome is most Sacrilegious Firm. You rightly Judge and were their fancy of Transubstantiation true as nothing is more false and ridiculous yet were it not sufficient to debar the Laity of the Cup because they receive the Blood of Christ with his Body for this is not to drinke but to eat it and besides the Sacrament is not a sign of his Blood in the veins but as 't was shed and powred out might not the Preists as well receive his Blood with his Body and then 't were as superfluous for them to drin●e of the Cup as for the people but I pray proceed in your reasons against Popery Dub. My third reason is taken from the invocation of Saints departed which is against Scripture and antiquity 't is an attribute belonging to God alone that ●he is a God hearing Prayers 'T is a chiefe part of his worship thou shalt Worship the Lord thy God and him o●ely shalt thou Serve it robs Christ of one part of his Preistly office who now sitts at Gods right hand interceding for us there is but one Mediator betwixt God and man the man Christ I●sus certainly is holy men both before and under the law prayed to God alone through faith in the promised seed or Messias without invocateing any departed Saint because there was none then as they of the Church of Rome confess admitted to the beatifical vision and consequently could not know the need or praiers of men upon earth in the Glass of the Trinity there is less reason now to make our adresses to the spirits of just men made perfect Christ himselfe sitting at Gods right hand and Interceding for us Besides the worship of Angells is forbidden by St. Paul Col. 2. and the Angell in the Revelation twice sorbade St. Iohn to worship him Cap. 19. and 22 yea the worshippers of Angells were in the primitive times branded with the title of haereticks under the name of Angelici and therefore much less ought wee to worship the Saints departed for certainely they being the more excellent Creatures are much more capable of such worship then the soules of men that are now in Abrahams bosome in Paradise not yet in that perfect bliss and glory which they shall enjoy when their soules and bodies shall be reunited but according to many of the fathers in a certaine and joyfull expectancy of it after the last and finall judgment where the place of their present abode is I shall tell you when ●he fathers are agreed about it For this Saint worship certain it is there is no express Scripture and 't is as certain there is no generall consent of antiquity let any man peruse Mr. Meads excellent treatise of the Apostacy of the latter times wherein 't is apparent how the Cannonizing of Saints in the Church of Rome agrees with the heathens Apotheosis their praying to them with the worshipping of Heroes their Dij Medioxumi their haveing severall Saints for Patrons of Particular Countryes Trades and Callings Phisitians for divers diseases like the heathens Dij Tutelares as may be seen in Chemnitius his examen and in other learned men Firm. You need not spend more words about this grosse superstition which is nothing else but a mixture of Christianity and Paganisme and of all the errours of the Church of Rome most dangerous for the Lord our God is a jealous God and will not suffer the honour and worship that is due to him alone to be given to any other Dub. I shall submit to your advice and proceed to a fourth reason against Popery which is their adoration of images so much condemned in holy Scripture what more expressly forbiden then image worship by the second Commandement which they of Rome have Cunningly left out in their mass books offices Primmers and Catechism's and without all shew of Reason asserted it to be a positive Command belonging onely to the Jews how demonstratively is the fourth of Deutronomie against it from the 12 verse to the 18 many other texts might be urged to the same purpose all which the Schoolmen endeavour to baffle by their Pittifull distinctions betwixt an Image and an Idol a picture upon a cloath and one ingraven in wood or stone betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which every Esurient Groeculus every mean Sciolist will smile at betwixt Mediatè Relutivè and Terminative which a●e distinctions at least some of them without a difference mere Chimericall phansies if a man shall seriously peruse the 13 and 14. Chapters of the Book of Wisdome which at Rome is Canonicall Scripture and consider what answers the Heathens returned to those that objected against them their Idol worship that they worship not the Image but the Numen or divine power it represented he will easily discern that the wiser sort of Heathens made as wise Appologies for their Image worship as the wisest Papists do for theirs As for the antiquity of this grosse superstition both Fathers Councels are against it as is evident from that excellent Homily of our Church concerning the perill of Idolatry if it be replyed t were the images of the heathens they opposed true 't is for in the first ages of the Church there were no others the Christians of those times abominateing all image worship but the reasons they give against the heathen Imagery wound the Church of Rome under the fifth rib no Christian Church did then use images in their oratoryes in after ages they were admitted only for an historicall use as may be seen in St Gregories writings who lived above 600 years after Christ true 't is by the Second Nicene Councell their worship was decreed and so this iniquity was established by a law such a one as that packed convention could legitimate and hence forward not only the pictures of Saints but of God himself and of the Blessed Trinity were set up in Churches which was an high dishonour to the Glorious Majesty of the Almighty to be portraid like an old Man and gave an occasion to ignorant people to conceive him to be so indeed hence I have heard some of them say when they swore by God that they