Selected quad for the lemma: saint_n
Text snippets containing the quad
|
ID |
Title |
Author |
Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) |
STC |
Words |
Pages |
|
A14368
|
A stronge battery against the idolatrous inuocation of the dead saintes, and against the hauyng or setting up of images in the house of prayer, or in any other place where there is any paril of idolatrye, made dialoguewise by Iohn Veron
|
Véron, John, d. 1563.
|
1562
(1562)
|
STC 24686; ESTC S102670
|
105,295
|
264
|
iuuare eos precibus sanis atque interuentu suo apud Deum Non erit inconueniens Scriptum nanque est in Machabeorum libris ita Hic est Hieremias propheta Dei qui semper orat pro populo That is to saye But it shall not bee inconueniente yf it bee sayd that all the Saintes whyche bee departed out of thys lyfe hauynge yet a loue and charitie towardes them that be in the worlde bee carefulle ouer theyr saluation and healpe theym with theyr prayers and intercession vnto God For in the booke of the Machabees it is thus writen This is Hieremie the Prophete of GOD that prayeth alwayes for the people These woordes seeme vnto me very playne Philalethes Answer It is a wonder and meruaile that this old ancient father should go about to confirm and establish the intercession and prayeng of the Saynctes for vs in heauen which is a doctrine no where set foorth vnto vs in all the Canonicall Scriptures by the testimonie and authoritie of an Apocryphicall booke For Origene hymselfe if that bee trewe that Eusebius writeth of hym doothe numbre no more than .xxii. canonicall bookes secludyng the bokes of the Machabees Moreouer Hierome in his preface vnto Damasê° which he did set before the .ii. treatises or homelies of Origene vpon the CaÌ„ticles doth testifie that Origene did write these .ii. treatises vpon the caÌ„ticles whiche Hierome hyâ—selfe dydde turne or translate into latin and .x. bokes which he sayth he dyd not translate because it was a woorke that required muche leysure tyme labour and coste Nowe those that wee haue at this present vnder the name and title of Origene are not called bookes but homelies where as in the meane whyle he wrote none but those .ii. which Hierom did translate But put the case that they be Origenes shall we set more by the authoritie of man than by the authoritie of the Canonical scriptures Lu. 7. Math. 15. Obie 2â— Albion It is written in Luke that the Centurion dyd sende the elders of the people vnto Christ beseching him that he wold come and heale his seruant And why because that he thoughte not hymselfe worthy to come vnto hym Dyd not the the Apostles lykewyse make earneste sute vnto Christ for the woman of Chanance why shoulde wee not likewyse thynking our selues vnworthie by reason our synnes to come vnto God praye vnto the dead Saintes that be already in heauen with their head our sauior Iesu Christe to make intercession for vs Philalethes Answer vvhiles vve liue in this vvorld vve are bound to praye one for another We haue alreadye declared that whiles we yet liue in this worlde we may pray one for an other yea we are bound by goddes worde so for to doo But that we shoulde doo the lyke after we be ones deceassed or departed out of this lyfe and haue fulfiled our course we haue not one onelye iote in al the whole body of the scriptures that testifieth any suche thyng vnto vs Albion Obie 14 Reuel 5 Ye shall not nede to make any repetition of that which hath ben saide alreadie For I doo wel beare in mynd the whole matter Therfore I wil com to the Apocalipse or reuelation of Iohn There wee haue these woordes And when he had taken the boke the fower beastes and the foure and twentie elders fell downe before the lambe hauyng euery one harpes and golden viols full of odours which are the prayers of the Sainctes And in an other place of the same booke he saieth Reue 8. And an other angell came and stoode before the aultar hauyng a golden censer and many odoures were geuen vnto hym that he should offer of the praiers of the Saintes vpon the golden aultar which is before the throne These places doo seeme vnto me to proue manifestly the inuocation of the dead Saintes Phila. Answer Tvvo â—yndes of praiers Ye must vnderstande that there be .ii. kyndes of prayers the one is inuocatioÌ„ or petition and the other is geuyng of thankes laude and prayse This petition yf nede were might be proued by the iiii chapiter of the epistle to the Philippians we cal that inuocation when we desyre some good thing to be geuen vnto vs or some euyll to bee taken awaye from vs. Geuyng of thankes doth contayne the praising and lauding or magnifieng of the name of god for his exceading great benefyts which we receaue dayly and hourely at his handes It is manifeste by that whiche doth immediatly folow that the Apostle doth speake of this laste and not of the first These be the wordes And they sounge a newe song Reuela 5. saieng Thou act worthy to take the boke and to open the seales therof because thou wast killed haste redemed vs to God by thy bloude oute of euerye kynred and tongue and people and nation and haste made vs vnto our God kinges and prestes we shal raigne on the erth Therfore what doth thys make for the intercession of the blessed spirites or soules that the saints do sing praises vnto god in heauen In the other place none other thing is ment Reuela 8 but that the aungell did ioygne his laudes and praises whiche he gaue vnto God with the himnes and songes of the elders Saint Augustine August expoundyng this place writeth thus Alius angelus ipse est Iesus Christus habens thuribulum aureuÌ„ quod est corpus sanctum Ipse enim dominus factus est thuribulum ex quo deus odorem suanitatis accepit propitius factus est mundo quia obtulit seipsum modoreÌ„ suauitatis Et accepit angelus thuribuluÌ„ impleuit illud ex igne altatis Accepit Iesus corpus id est ecclesiam perficieÌ„do patris voluntatem illam igne spiritus impleuit sancti That is to saye The other angell is Iesus Chryst hauyng a golden censer whyche is an holy body For the LORD hym selfe was made a censer oute of the whyche GOD receaued a swete odour and was made mercifull vnto the worlde For he offered hym self a sacrifice of swete smell And the aungell didde take the censer and dydde fyll it wyth the fyre of the aultare IESVS tooke a bodye that is to saye the churche and dydde fyll it wyth the fyre of the holye Ghoste DYDIMVS Obie 25 Râ—ffâ— lâ—â— Eccle. historiae I perceaue brother Albion that ye muste seeke for helpe som other where than in the scriptures of the old and newe testament sith that youre inuocation of the deade Saintes is already driuen out of the Apocalypse or reuelation of Iohn Albi. I haue yet somme what in store These wordes we do reade of Theodosius the emperor in the eleuenth boke of the ecclesiasticall hystorie whiche one Ruffinus dyd write Ciren nibat cum sacerdotibus popâ—lo omnia orationum loca ante martyrum apostolorum thecis â—acebat cilitio prostratus auxilia sibi fida sanctorum intercessione poscebat That is he did with
the liuyng yea he dothe playnly affirme Sith that the dead sainctes knovve nothing of al that is done here it is in vain to pray vnto them QuestioÌ„ that they be vtterly ignorant what is don in the lyfe of men If this bee true as that can not be false which is proued by the holy scriptures truely the saluation necessitie either of the dead or of the liuyng is in vaine committed to the intercession of theim that know nothing therof We doo beleue in vayne that they doo pray vnto the Lorde for oure present necessite which know not that we are in any perill or daunger Didy And may not they haue intelligence vnderstandyng of our affaires eyther by the angels or by them that go away hence from vs or els by god himselfe Philalethes Answer Sithe that these wayes of reuelation are no where in the scriptures sett foorth vnto vs and therfore be most vncertaine Why should we It is folishnes to fly from that vvhich is certaine to â—hat vvhich is vncerâ—aâ—e I pray you flie from those thynges that are most sure most certaine and infallible vnto that which is doubtfull and not ones mencioned of in all the whole body of the scriptures Ye haue hearde how that this moste holy father sainct Augustine doth plainely confesse that the dead saintes doo not knowe our estate or the case that we bee in nor yet be careful ouer vs. Leauing then that whiche is without any grounde of the scriptures let vs stedfastly cleaue vnto that which is most surely grounded in gods boke wherin we are taught that the blessed soules of the elect and choseÌ„ of God do rest in peace beyng in glorie with their heade our sauiour Iesu Christ who alone is appoynted of god to be oure mediator aduocate and intercessor Albion But what will ye say to Hieromes clerkly sayenges ye see that he dothe plainly hold opinion that the dead saintes doo praye for vs. Philalethes As for Hierome Hovv Hierome dyd ouershote himself in this mater I doo with all due reuerento acknowledge him to do a most worthy instrument of God howbeit in this master he hathe declared him selfe that he was a man And verelye I doo meruayle that beeing so great a cleark as he was would buyld the doctrine of the praisyng of the deade saintes for vs vpon such weake argumentes For who wil say that the Saintes do nowe the same in heauen that they did in the erth But Hierome sayeth none other thing neither dothe he with any other arguments proue that the saints do pray for vs in heauen Hieromes vveake arguments Yf saieth he they did pray for vs in the earth how much more shall they do it now after their crounes Act. 27. victories and triumphes Yf two hundred lxxvi soules were geuen vnto Paule praiyng here in the earth how many mo shall be geuen vnto him praying now in heauen I graunte that god hath done good vnto men here in the earth through the ministery and praiers of his seruants VVhy god did good vnto men here in the earth by the ministerye and praiers of his seruauntes but to what ende I praye you euen to this ende that they should beleue the worde of god set foorth by his true ministers But the ministers dyd all with one doctrine teach vs to cal vpoÌ„ god only in al â—â—re necessities Nowe the doctrine of the praiers of the saints and of their intercession for vs in heauen doth pull vs away from god Hiero in Lâ—c 14. and causeth vs to put some truste hope and confidence in the creatures Which Hierome hym selfe doth stronglye impugne saiyng The righteousnes of the righteous shal bee vpon him and the wickednesse of the wicked shall remayne vpon him Euerye manne shall dye through his owne syn and euerye man shall liue through his owne righteousnesse Iohn 8. The Iewes do say in vayne â–ª Abraham is our father syth that they haue not the workes of Abraham Yf we should put our truste in any let vs put our trust in god liere 17. Psal 146. Cursed be euery man that putteth his trust in menne although they be saintes although they be prophetes We reade Put not your trust in men Again better it is to trust in god than in princes Not onely in the princes of the world but in the princes of the church whiche yf they be righteous they shall deliuer their owne soules onelye These are Hieromes woordes Let vs therfore hope in the lorde oure GOD and sith that we haue not one iote in the Canonicall Scriptures of the intercession of the Sainctes for vs in heauen nor any example that they do pray vnto the father for vs let vs boldely reiecting this idolatrous inuocation of the dead sainctes and the vaine and fonde doctrine of their intercession for vs vnto God cal vpon our heauenly father through his sonne Iesu Christ though an angell from heauen shoulde teache the contrarie I doo here let passe that in the boke which this holy father did write agaynste Vigilantius there is more furious bitternesse to bee founde than either modestie or learning whiche maye bee proued by the censure of Erasmus The censure of Erasmus vpon Hieromes booke against vigilantius whiche is this lo vigilantium ita conuitiis debacehator Hieronymus vt plusculum in eo modestiae eogar desyderare Vtinam argumentis duntaâ—at egisset à conuitiis temperasser That is Hierome doothe 〈◊〉 with reuilyng woordes raile against Vigilantius that I am fayne to fynde a larke of modestie in him would god he had onely soughten with argumentes and had refrained from reuilynge and opprobrious wordes For take away these railyng woordes Caupo Calagutitanus Dormitantius Herculis monstra Louiathan Behemoth The taunces of Hierom against vigilantius take away his chiâ—yng brawling and scoldyng take awaye his subtill conueâ—ance in the torrke Take awaye his exclamations translations tragicall amplifications his swellyng and braggyng wordes and nothing almost shal be left vnto the reader that hath anye sauor of the propheticall and apostolicall simplicitie Albion Obie 10 Yet this holy father dothe plainely affirme that the deuils dyd roare out at the relykes of Saint Andrew and that great myracles and wonders at the dust and ashes of the martyrs haue beÌ„ wrought and the vnclean spirites tormented Whiche thyng he dothe proue by the example of certaine emperors kynges and byshops saying If it be not laufull to shrine vp and to translate the relikes of the saintes then was Archadius with Constantine a sacriledge all the byshops were not only sacrileges but to be also coÌ„pted verye beastes foles which did cary so vile a thing and ashes in silke and in a golden vessell Philalethes As touchyng the firste Answer I answere that the diuels dyd not roare out because of saincte Andrewes drye bones VVhythe diuel did roaâ— ouâ—e at sainct An drevves reliâ—es but because of Christe whome the holy