Selected quad for the lemma: saint_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
saint_n	admit_v	church_n	visible_a	1,210	5	9.2185	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A78433	A sober ansvver, to a serious question. Propounded by Mr. G. Firmin minister of the church in Shalford in Essex. viz. Whether the ministers of England are bound, by the Word of God, to baptise the children of all such parents, which say, they believe in Jesus Christ: but are grosly ignorant, scandalous in their conversation, scoffers at godliness, and refuse to submit to church-discipline, the negative is not sufficiently defended. Which may serve also as an appendix to the diatribe with Mr. Hooker, lately published, concerning the baptisme of infants, of parents not confœderate. By Daniel Cavvdrey pastour of the church at Great Billing in Northampton-shire. Licensed, printed, and entred, according to order.	Cawdrey, Daniel, 1588-1664.	1652 (1652)	Wing C1636; Thomason E683_23; ESTC R206820	21,614	39

so_o long_o as_o wicked_a person_n continue_v member_n and_o the_o church_n let_v they_o alone_o they_o may_v challenge_v baptism_n which_o one_o sentence_n confute_v as_o it_o contradict_v both_o his_o question_n and_o practice_n in_o his_o refusal_n to_o baptise_v the_o child_n of_o such_o and_o at_o once_o give_v we_o a_o answer_n to_o all_o his_o argument_n follow_v but_o we_o shall_v further_o consider_v what_o he_o say_v to_o show_v his_o mistake_n and_o give_v he_o full_a satisfaction_n the_o next_o undertake_n be_v to_o prove_v that_o such_o as_o in_o the_o question_n be_v not_o fit_a to_o be_v member_n first_o thus_o member_n be_v visible_a saint_n but_o such_o be_v not_o visible_a saint_n ergo_fw-la 1._o we_o must_v distinguish_v between_o a_o first_o admission_n into_o a_o church_n and_o continuance_n in_o a_o church_n by_o such_o as_o be_v bear_v of_o member_n of_o a_o church_n such_o if_o now_o to_o be_v admit_v in_o their_o own_o person_n be_v not_o fit_a to_o be_v member_n nor_o aught_o to_o be_v admit_v but_o if_o child_n of_o member_n prove_v ignorant_a or_o scandalous_a they_o be_v to_o be_v continue_v and_o account_v member_n till_o they_o be_v legal_o convict_v and_o cast_v out_o we_o grant_v such_o a_o one_o be_v not_o qualify_v sufficient_o to_o make_v a_o member_n nor_o aught_o to_o be_v continue_v continue_v such_o but_o the_o church_n ought_v to_o reform_v he_o or_o eject_v he_o which_o be_v partly_o his_o own_o word_n but_o then_o while_o the_o church_n be_v in_o reform_v he_o he_o be_v a_o member_n and_o consequent_o have_v right_a to_o give_v his_o child_n baptism_n he_o shall_v have_v prove_v with_o respect_n to_o the_o first_o and_o main_a question_n that_o such_o be_v not_o member_n during_o the_o church_n toleration_n of_o they_o and_o then_o infer_v their_o child_n have_v no_o right_n because_o child_n of_o non-member_n 2._o church-member_n and_o visible_a saint_n be_v take_v in_o scripture_n sometime_o improper_o even_o such_o as_o in_o the_o question_n ignorant_a scandalous_a etc._n etc._n be_v salute_v with_o the_o whole_a church_n as_o saint_n 1_o cor._n 1._o etc._n etc._n and_o call_v brethren_n 1_o cor._n 5.11_o 2_o thess_n 3.14,15_o now_o brethren_n and_o member_n be_v equivalent_a term_n if_o they_o be_v account_v brethren_n they_o may_v be_v account_v member_n in_o a_o large_a sense_n as_o he_o confess_v pag._n 41._o 3._o when_o we_o say_v a_o profession_n of_o the_o faith_n be_v sufficient_a to_o qualify_v a_o man_n to_o be_v make_v or_o continue_v a_o member_n we_o do_v not_o mean_v a_o bare_a profession_n with_o his_o mouth_n that_o he_o believe_v in_o jesus_n christ_n though_o visible_o he_o live_v like_o a_o infidel_n but_o thus_o at_o least_o when_o nothing_o in_o his_o life_n appear_v to_o the_o contrary_a 43._o contrary_a conversatinot_n scandalous_a he_o seem_v to_o require_v no_o more_o pag._n 43._o though_o there_o be_v yet_o no_o great_a positive_a sign_n of_o his_o holiness_n thus_o we_o think_v the_o eunuch_n at_o least_o simon_n magus_n be_v admit_v this_o indeed_o be_v sufficient_a for_o admission_n but_o as_o there_o must_v be_v more_o to_o continue_v such_o in_o the_o church_n so_o there_o must_v be_v something_o positive_a of_o obstinacy_n in_o ignorance_n or_o gross_a wickedness_n in_o life_n to_o cast_v out_o again_o the_o church_n can_v upon_o the_o negative_a if_o once_o admit_v cast_v they_o out_o nay_o nor_o upon_o positive_a appearance_n but_o after_o legal_a proceed_n with_o they_o therefore_o so_o long_o they_o be_v to_o be_v account_v member_n etc._n etc._n upon_o this_o ground_n his_o second_o argument_n pag._n 14._o fall_n also_o if_o say_v he_o a_o bare_a profession_n be_v sufficient_a than_o none_o can_v be_v cast_v out_o for_o the_o vile_a sin_n heresy_n etc._n etc._n because_o he_o be_v the_o same_o now_o as_o when_o he_o be_v admit_v the_o consequence_n be_v unsound_a and_o proof_n like_o it_o for_o when_o he_o be_v first_o admit_v upon_o his_o profession_n no_o such_o scandal_n appear_v but_o now_o it_o do_v therefore_o he_o be_v not_o the_o same_o that_o he_o be_v when_o admit_v the_o three_o argument_n be_v like_o the_o former_a very_o weak_a a_fw-la rebel_n oppose_v christ_n in_o his_o visible_a kingdom_n be_v not_o fit_a to_o be_v a_o member_n of_o it_o because_o no_o subject_n i_o answer_v he_o be_v not_o fit_a to_o be_v admit_v if_o no_o member_n before_o but_o fit_a to_o be_v continue_v till_o trial_n of_o reformation_n be_v past_a and_o this_o himself_n confess_v after_o pag._n 17._o of_o which_o hereafter_o a_o rebel_n be_v a_o subject_a though_o not_o a_o honest_a subject_n till_o reform_v or_o outlaw_v or_o cut_v off_o and_o we_o desire_v to_o see_v the_o place_n in_o scripture_n where_o those_o who_o be_v within_o the_o outward_a covenant_n be_v present_o discovenanted_n if_o they_o walk_v contrary_a to_o the_o condition_n of_o the_o covenant_n object_n all_o be_v not_o convince_v that_o church-discipline_n be_v a_o ordinance_n of_o god_n answ_n i_o speak_v say_v he_o of_o such_o as_o have_v be_v convince_v and_o acknowledge_v it_o from_o matth._n 18.15_o but_o yet_o will_v not_o submit_v to_o it_o reply_n then_o say_v we_o a_o man_n not_o convince_v of_o it_o may_v be_v a_o member_n though_o he_o refuse_v to_o submit_v to_o discipline_n if_o out_o of_o ignorance_n only_o of_o this_o particular_a but_o this_o qualification_n be_v not_o in_o his_o question_n but_o general_o if_o he_o refuse_v to_o subject_v to_o church-discipline_n to_o all_o his_o authority_n ancient_a and_o modern_a pag._n 15._o etc._n etc._n that_o more_o than_o a_o bare_a profession_n be_v require_v to_o make_v a_o member_n we_o assent_n but_o still_o with_o our_o distinction_n that_o more_o be_v require_v to_o the_o first_o admission_n than_o to_o the_o continuance_n of_o one_o bear_v a_o member_n in_o the_o church_n and_o this_o lead_v we_o to_o that_o consideration_n of_o a_o church_n to_o be_v now_o constitute_v &_o one_o already_o constitute_v p._n 17._o the_o church_n of_o england_n be_v not_o now_o in_o constitute_v but_o a_o succession_n for_o many_o year_n to_o this_o he_o say_v that_o which_o constitute_v a_o church_n continue_v it_o a_o church_n if_o then_o a_o bare_a profession_n be_v not_o sufficient_a to_o make_v a_o member_n nor_o be_v it_o enough_o to_o continue_v a_o man_n a_o member_n of_o a_o church_n we_o answer_v both_o proposition_n be_v faulty_a the_o minor_a for_o we_o have_v prove_v that_o a_o profession_n of_o faith_n nothing_o appear_v to_o the_o contrary_a will_v constitute_v a_o member_n and_o so_o a_o church_n of_o many_o member_n though_o all_o hypocrite_n the_o major_n because_o more_o be_v require_v to_o a_o first_o admission_n than_o to_o continuance_n in_o the_o church_n as_o be_v evident_a in_o man_n of_o year_n convert_v from_o infidel_n a_o personal_a profession_n of_o faith_n be_v necessary_a to_o such_o but_o their_o child_n be_v admit_v and_o continue_v without_o it_o by_o their_o birth_n privilege_n etc._n etc._n till_o they_o give_v evidence_n of_o their_o ignorance_n or_o scandal_n and_o be_v orderly_o proceed_v with_o for_o their_o reformation_n and_o this_o be_v his_o own_o resolution_n and_o remedy_n to_o reform_v they_o without_o a_o new_a constitution_n for_o so_o he_o say_v let_v churches_n be_v constitute_v according_a to_o the_o rule_n and_o so_o continue_v or_o mark_v it_o exercise_v discipline_n and_o reduce_v they_o to_o their_o first_o constitution_n this_o make_v it_o clear_a that_o there_o be_v another_o way_n to_o reform_v a_o constitute_v but_o corrupt_a church_n than_o first_o to_o constitute_v a_o church_n viz._n discipline_n but_o then_o i_o will_v object_v 1._o how_o can_v we_o exercise_v discipline_n i_o say_v not_o where_o no_o government_n be_v settle_v but_o when_o the_o party_n refuse_v to_o submit_v to_o discipline_n as_o not_o convince_v of_o the_o divine_a authority_n of_o it_o 2._o will_v he_o have_v man_n ignorant_a or_o scandalous_a or_o refuser_n of_o discipline_n sudden_o eject_v not_o so_o he_o say_v not_o that_o i_o mean_v we_o fall_v present_o upon_o excommunication_n before_o we_o have_v try_v other_o mean_n and_o patient_o wait_v well_o than_o the_o person_n be_v yet_o a_o member_n and_o the_o church_n a_o church_n in_o be_v or_o constitute_v else_o no_o discipline_n can_v be_v exercise_v by_o it_o though_o corrupt_v then_o have_v those_o member_n under_o cure_n right_a to_o all_o ordinance_n for_o themselves_o and_o they_o and_o so_o the_o church_n need_v no_o new_a constitution_n but_o if_o his_o argue_v be_v good_a our_o church_n be_v no_o true_a church_n our_o member_n no_o true_a member_n for_o the_o great_a part_n have_v no_o right_a to_o ordinance_n for_o themselves_o or_o they_o why_o else_o be_v they_o debar_v from_o both_o sacrament_n and_o

consideration_n those_o thing_n to_o which_o little_o be_v say_v in_o that_o discourse_n as_o be_v then_o out_o of_o question_n his_o first_o premise_v be_v this_o the_o infant_n abstract_v from_o the_o parent_n give_v no_o reason_n why_o it_o shall_v be_v baptise_a to_o which_o otherwise_o propound_v by_o mr._n hooker_n we_o have_v answer_v already_o 18●_n diatrib_o 6._o p._n 18●_n and_o now_o explain_v ourselves_o further_o thus_o 1._o this_o be_v not_o right_o propose_v of_o all_o child_n or_o any_o whatsoever_o as_o appear_v because_o he_o speak_v indifferent_o of_o the_o child_n of_o a_o turk_n indian_a or_o christian_a live_v together_o in_o a_o parish_n or_o place_n a_o minister_n in_o such_o a_o case_n have_v reason_n to_o ask_v who_o child_n it_o be_v because_o two_o sort_n of_o the_o three_o have_v no_o right_n to_o baptism_n for_o themselves_o or_o they_o but_o the_o question_n intend_v to_o speak_v only_o of_o christian_n child_n for_o so_o it_o be_v propound_v not_o whether_o a_o minister_n at_o large_a in_o any_o place_n but_o of_o england_n where_o all_o be_v christian_n and_o profess_v to_o believe_v in_o jesus_n christ_n then_o it_o be_v suppose_v he_o will_v not_o ask_v who_o it_o be_v in_o that_o respect_n for_o it_o be_v not_o only_a home_n but_o a_o christian_a bear_v 2._o if_o he_o will_v as_o he_o may_v ask_v the_o question_n when_o a_o christian_n child_n be_v bring_v to_o be_v baptise_a it_o be_v not_o to_o know_v whether_o he_o be_v ignorant_a scandalous_a not_o submit_v to_o church-discipline_n etc._n etc._n or_o godly_a such_o question_n be_v never_o ask_v till_o these_o last_o overcurious_a day_n but_o that_o the_o parent_n may_v be_v present_a to_o undertake_v for_o the_o education_n of_o the_o child_n in_o the_o true_a religion_n the_o second_o premise_v be_v this_o all_o child_n be_v baptise_a by_o virtue_n of_o the_o parent_n one_o or_o both_o consider_v in_o relation_n to_o they_o this_o be_v mr._n hooker_n second_o premise_v conclusion_n only_o restrain_v to_o the_o next_o parent_n which_o be_v intend_v by_o our_o author_n also_o 187._o ibid._n p._n 187._o to_o which_o much_o have_v be_v say_v and_o now_o we_o add_v 1._o this_o in_o effect_n be_v the_o same_o with_o the_o former_a that_o the_o negative_a the_o child_n bring_v nothing_o of_o itself_o to_o baptism_n this_o the_o affirmative_a the_o parent_n only_o give_v it_o right_n thereto_o 2._o it_o take_v for_o grant_v what_o be_v deny_v these_o two_o thing_n first_o that_o there_o be_v no_o way_n to_o admit_v a_o child_n to_o baptism_n but_o parental_a by_o virtue_n of_o and_o relation_n to_o the_o parent_n second_o and_o that_o not_o the_o proparent_n or_o predecessor_n but_o the_o next_o immediate_a parent_n which_o be_v two_o question_n the_o first_o whereof_o he_o medle_n not_o with_o at_o al._n 3._o in_o state_v of_o this_o second_o premise_v he_o take_v occasion_n to_o define_v a_o church_n a_o society_n of_o visible_a saint_n join_v together_o by_o way_n of_o covenant_n etc._n etc._n where_o two_o thing_n be_v to_o i_o observable_a 1._o that_o he_o seem_v to_o own_v no_o catholic_a church_n but_o a_o particular_a congregation_n nor_o any_o member_n of_o a_o church_n but_o of_o such_o a_o church_n for_o else_o a_o new_a question_n may_v arise_v whether_o a_o man_n convert_v to_o the_o faith_n but_o as_o yet_o confoederate_a with_o no_o particular_a church_n but_o if_o of_o any_o only_a of_o the_o catholic_n church_n be_v to_o be_v repute_v a_o church_n member_n and_o have_v any_o right_a to_o require_v baptism_n for_o his_o child_n 2._o he_o require_v a_o explicit_a covenant_n to_o such_o a_o church_n seem_v not_o only_o to_o contradict_v himself_o in_o his_o epistle_n where_o he_o grant_v a_o implicit_a covenant_n to_o be_v sufficient_a but_o also_o to_o un-church_n most_o of_o our_o english_a church_n for_o want_v of_o this_o explicite_fw-la covenant_n and_o consequent_o to_o agree_v with_o the_o independent_o as_o in_o that_o point_n so_o in_o this_o in_o deny_v baptism_n to_o any_o child_n but_o of_o member_n explicit_o in_o covenant_n have_v premise_v thus_o he_o infer_v this_o conclusion_n upon_o this_o ground_n all_o our_o argument_n against_o the_o anabaptist_n stand_v and_o if_o this_o be_v take_v away_o infant_n baptism_n must_v fall_v to_o which_o i_o say_v our_o argument_n against_o the_o anabaptist_n stand_v not_o upon_o this_o ground_n only_o but_o their_o argument_n against_o infant_n baptism_n stand_v upon_o the_o notion_n of_o a_o explicite_fw-la covenant_n to_o be_v make_v by_o every_o one_o that_o be_v baptise_a and_o if_o we_o have_v no_o better_a ground_n than_o a_o explicite_fw-la covenant_n our_o cause_n must_v fall_v 186._o diatrib_o 6._o p._n 186._o the_o difference_n be_v not_o great_a the_o anabaptist_n exclude_v child_n because_o they_o be_v not_o able_a to_o covenant_n in_o person_n in_o the_o covenant_n of_o grace_n the_o independent_o exclude_v child_n of_o parent_n not_o join_v to_o gether_o in_o a_o church-covenant_n and_o so_o in_o their_o sense_n no_o member_n of_o a_o church_n as_o be_v say_v elsewhere_o as_o for_o that_o argument_n pag._n 2._o charge_v upon_o amesius_n and_o other_o it_o be_v i_o suppose_v mistake_v for_o it_o be_v not_o bring_v immediate_o to_o prove_v child_n baptism_n because_o they_o be_v capable_a of_o the_o grace_n of_o baptism_n man_n also_o be_v but_o mere_a patient_n in_o the_o first_o receive_v of_o it_o but_o by_o way_n of_o answer_n to_o a_o objection_n make_v against_o it_o by_o the_o anabaptist_n they_o plead_v that_o child_n have_v not_o nor_o be_v capable_a of_o the_o grace_n of_o faith_n and_o repentance_n ergo_fw-la not_o to_o be_v baptize_v our_o divine_n deny_v the_o consequence_n upon_o this_o ground_n they_o be_v capable_a of_o grace_n as_o well_o as_o man_n of_o year_n both_o be_v alike_o but_o patient_n in_o the_o first_o receive_v of_o grace_n therefore_o that_o can_v be_v no_o bar_n to_o their_o baptism_n but_o enough_o of_o that_o it_o be_v not_o proper_o speak_v pag._n 3._o to_o say_v the_o morality_n of_o that_o command_n to_o abraham_n to_o circumcise_v his_o seed_n with_o himself_o stand_v thus_o that_o the_o child_n of_o believer_n must_v have_v the_o imitate_v seal_n the_o analogy_n indeed_o stand_v fair_a under_o several_a dispensation_n of_o the_o same_o covenant_n that_o as_o circumcision_n then_o so_o baptism_n how_o belong_v to_o believer_n and_o their_o child_n unless_o god_n reveal_v himself_o to_o the_o contrary_a which_o concern_v anabaptist_n to_o prove_v by_o express_a scripture_n as_o he_o say_v which_o they_o can_v never_o do_v nay_o the_o contrary_n be_v evident_o continue_v act._n 2.38_o etc._n etc._n 1_o cor._n 7.14_o etc._n etc._n the_o seed_n be_v holy_a by_o the_o parent_n if_o he_o shall_v plead_v a_o morality_n in_o that_o command_n the_o anabaptist_n will_v easy_o deny_v it_o and_o put_v the_o difference_n there_o be_v express_v command_n for_o child_n circumcision_n not_o so_o for_o their_o baptism_n it_o be_v enough_o it_o can_v be_v prove_v by_o consequence_n from_o scripture_n concern_v the_o question_n about_o predecessor_n give_v right_o to_o child_n baptism_n much_o need_v not_o to_o be_v say_v here_o it_o be_v large_o discuss_v in_o the_o foresay_a diatribe_n with_o mr._n hooker_n pag._n 188._o and_o afterward_o all_o that_o i_o shall_v say_v now_o be_v this_o 1._o what_o england_n be_v when_o austin_n come_v into_o england_n we_o need_v not_o much_o inquire_v for_o we_o look_v at_o england_n as_o many_o year_n since_o reform_v we_o need_v not_o go_v to_o many_o generation_n past_a there_o be_v some_o alive_a that_o have_v or_o have_v predecessor_n know_v to_o be_v godly_a let_v the_o question_n be_v of_o they_o and_o two_o of_o they_o undertake_v for_o the_o christian_a education_n of_o the_o child_n and_o though_o it_o be_v true_a that_o some_o people_n receive_v the_o gospel_n after_o the_o example_n of_o their_o king_n and_o be_v baptise_a for_o company_n as_o simon_n magus_n it_o seem_v be_v and_o suppose_v it_o be_v but_o in_o outward_a profession_n only_o yet_o that_o be_v sufficient_a to_o give_v they_o right_o to_o baptism_n for_o themselves_o and_o they_o and_o consequent_o they_o be_v a_o true_a church_n though_o not_o a_o perfect_a and_o pure_a church_n for_o my_o part_n i_o shall_v not_o plead_v that_o promise_n in_o the_o second_o commandment_n show_v mercy_n to_o thousand_o etc._n etc._n but_o rather_o that_o to_o abraham_n i_o be_o thy_o god_n and_o the_o god_n of_o thy_o seed_n which_o whoever_o will_v restrain_v to_o the_o next_o generation_n only_o it_o concern_v he_o to_o prove_v by_o express_a scripture_n as_o he_o require_v above_o in_o a_o like_a case_n of_o anabaptist_n that_o god_n be_v not_o the_o god_n of_o the_o seed_n of_o a_o godly_a christian_a in_o a_o