all his commandements and who hath greater authority upon the earth then they that are visible Saints and what makes men visible Saints if not the manifestation of their obedience to God the Father and Christ his sonne in the practise of all his Ordinances and not to have some other Presbyters present with them to assist them as you affirme for by these other Presbyters I know not yet who you meane And whereas you say that the Church may be led into errours or kept in a low estate by unfit Pastors and Elders I answer It is a cleare truth as wofull experience teacheth us who live here in the Land of England And whereas you affirme that visible Saints cannot ordaine Officers because they have no gifts of prayer I Answer Here you make prayer the Ordination of Ministers And whereas you say they are not able to conceive prayer Here you give the holy Ghost the lie for Beleevers have received the Spirit of adoption to cry Abba Father But say you they cannot conceive prayer according to the action in boâ—â— Here you would seeme to make beleevers which have the Spirit of God to leade them into all truths more voide of common reason then men that have but gifts of nature Againe you say they have not gifts to make publike exhortation and admonition To which I answer If they had first knowledge to feele the want of a Pastor and also divers able men out of whom to elect and ordaine a Pastor then they out of whom this person is chosen are able to exhort and to admonish for he that hath not the gift of teaching may have the gift of exhortation againe the man that undertaketh to teach others ought to be taught by God and likewise to be able by sound Doctrine to withstand the Gainesayers but a man may give good exhortations and that publikely that is not able to withstand the Gainesayers by â—ound Doctrine By this you may see the Church of God can never be without some Ministers except it be according to that spoken by Zachaâ—iah in the day of very small things indeede when God shall take away their Ministers by death prison or exile for seeing the Churches were planted by Ministers of Gods owne ordaining therefore they were not without Ministers in the very beginning and still the Churches are planted by the Ministeriall power of the Lord Jesus which cannot be exercised without fit instruments Yet that they must want the word preached or Sacraments administred till they have Pastors and Teacher in Office is yet to be proved but that page of Mr. Robinsons which hath beene alledged before is sufficient for this present purpose against you even to prove that the family must not be unprovided for either for the absence or neglect of a Steward But now you seeme to insinuate an affirmation or a supposition I cannot well tell whether That a ruleing Elder may be destitute of the guift of discering and seeme to imply that if he be destitute then all the Church must be destitute if there be no more Officers then be Here you would faine make the ruling Elders the eyes of the Church and then all the rest of the body must be blinde and so unfit to have any hand in election and also voide of the Spirit of Grace to discerne the gifts by though it hath beene proved unto you before that she is the greatest of all having the Spirit of God to leade her into all truth being the Spouse of Christ and endowed with all his riches gifts and donations And thus you still deny the Authority ability of the Church giving to the persons in office all power and deserning But this is indeede according to your practise here in England but not according to the minde and Spirit of God And for the neighbour Churches Counsell I deny not but that it may be imbraced and the Saints have cause to praise God for any helpes of Gods ordaining But if they want the helpe of a neighbour Church to Counsell them or neighbour Ministers to direct them yet if they be a Church of Jesus Christ they have as hath beene said before power among themselves to elect and ordaine their owne Officers as also the Spirit of discerning whereby to try their gifts and yet be farre from falling into that evill which they complaine against in the Episcopacie namely for one man to have the sole power of Ordination By all these particulars you may clearely see all your pretended proofes and former assertions disproved as I promised you in the entrance of this my answer to your second Reason So that these two first Reasons being as I conceive the greatest Champions which you have sent out in this skirmage are now both slaine and made voide of all the life that ever was in them for they were made most of suppositions and of things that appeared unto you by likelihood without any ground from the Scriptures and of some other thing than Gods Word allowed and of some triviall affirmations which were not grounded upon any truth of Gods Word Now these two being thus turned aside by one of the meanest of all the Army of Jesus Christ you may justly feare that all the rest of your souldiers will run away wounded IN your third Reason You say it is not to be thought that Christ would institute such a Government of his Church which affords no helpe nor allowes no way or remedy for innocent persons that are wronged Which thing I grant to be very true but touching the means and helpes which you pleade for that is some other Synods to appeale unto I tell you I know not what Synods you meane But this I affirme that there are no larger Synods to be kept to settle Church differences then the comming together of the Ministers and Brethren as it is mentioned in the 15th of the Acts which I have granted you in my Answers to your former Reasons And whereas you strive for appeales I Answer It is the rule of Christ that if one brother doe trespasse against another and if the brother offending will not be reclaimed by the private admonition of the brother offended he is to be admonished by one or two other brethren with him but if he will not heare them the brother offended is to tell the Church and if he will not heare the Church then he is not to be accounted a brother but as a Heathen man and a Publican if not as a brother then out of the fellowship then if the wrong be any personall injury as oppression or fraud or any other sinne of these natures the Law is open where he may appeale for Justice to the Magistrate in any part of the Kingdome where-ever he liveth but if it be a matter of scandall as if hee should be a drunkard or incontinent or the like then he hath sufficient remedy when such a one is cast out of his society By this you may see
as you and all your fellowes do here But if it have beene so I thinke it was because they had here in England taken upon them an oath of conformity as you have sometimes done and because the tyranny of the Prelats was so mighty against all good men that they were faine to go away privately and so had not time or opportunity publikely to disclaime this their Oath and then there might be feare that upon complaint made for disorder committed there in suffering the liberty of the Gospel there which could not be admitted here they might have beene sent for backe by their Ordinaries and so have been committed to some stincking prison here in London there to have beene murdered as divers of the Lords people have beene of these late yeares as I am able to prove of my owne knowledge and if they have banished any out of their Parents that were neither disturbers of the peace of the Land nor the worship practised in the Land I am perswaded it was their weakenesse and I hope they will never attempt to doe the like But I am still perswaded they did it upon the same ground that having knowledge in themselves that their former Oath might be a snare unto them if they did not hold still some correspondencie with the practise of England even till God should open a way or meanes for them to seeke free liberty for all by the approbation of authority The next thing you minde against them is that they would not admit liberty to some of their brethren which were godly Ministers though they did approve of them as being against Ceremonies To this 1. I answer that it is strange that any man should send to aske their liberty 2. It is much more strange to me if it be true as you say that these men were against Ceremonies that there should be any difference betweene them and the Ministers in New England But it seemes by your speech they would have gone in a middle way which presupposeth to me that they are so farre from being against Ceremonies that are already invented that they would have set up some invention of their owne The next thing you charge some of them with is That they would not admit into fellowship those that would not enter into their Covenant and professe faith and submit to their Church Orders though they would be of their Church Me thinkes you have strange evasions but I pray you answer me to these two questions the first is how men of yeares of discretion may by the rule of Gods Word be admitted into fellowship and not professe their faith Secondly how men may be accounted to be of the Church and not submit unto the orders of the Church Seeing that the Apostle Paul had these two things to rejoyce in the beholding of the Saints stedfast faith and comely order in the Church But you say that these men who would faine have a toleration in this great kingdome will not allow any in their small particular Congregations Truely Mr. Edwards It were good for you to labour to understand the minde and will of God for your selfe and have charitie towards your brethren and hope well that they have so much knowledge of the Lords will that they will not pleade for such an absurdity as to set up one Church within another and so make a schisme But the Toleration they plead for is that Gods true worship may be set up in the Kingdome by those that understand what it is and that by the sufferance of the Governors and that it should be setled in a peaceable way which would be farre from disturbing the peace of three Kingdomes as you invectively speake but to set up a Congregation in a Congregation would be confusion even as to set up one Kingdome within another The next thing you charge them with is that they are partiall by a supposition of your owne for you say it is ordinary for men when they are not in place nor have no power in Church or Common-wealth and hold also Doâ—rines and principles contrary to what is held and established to pleade for Toleration but when the same men come to have place and power say you they will not tolerate others and you say that you doe beleeve that these are the men which now indevour a toleration To this I answer you may doe well to let this beleefe of yours be no Article of your faith because it stands upon no ground for though a man may hope the best and feare the worst yet he may beleeve nothing but what he hath proofe for But I doe beleeve that all this is your evill surmising to think that if they had power in their hands to settle a Government they would tolerate none but their independant way as it may plainely appeare by the Protestation Protested which you quote here for your Author for though the Protestor declare what he would have for the Churches of the Saints yet he doth not take upon him to determine what Government or rule shall be set up in the Land to bring men out of darkenesse to light but leaveth that to the judgement of them which have the power even the King and Parliament Thus much for your Eight Reason IN your ninth Reason you affirme that toleration may he demanded upon the same grounds for Brownists Anabaptists and Familists and others who professe it is their conscience To which I answer That seeing you plead for them I may well hold my peace But I thinke the Familists will not aske liberty for toleration if they be as I doe conceive of the Sect of the Libertines mention in the Acts But say you these may be pleaded for upon better grounds then Semi-Separates and the Reason you say is because they deny the truth of your Church Answer I do beleeve those whom you call Semi-Separates do deny the truth of your Church also though not in all respects and so farre as they be Separates they must needs deny the Church from which they Separate But you here demand whether Papists may not petition and have hope for toleration seeing it is their conscience To this I answer I know no reason why they may not petition and hope to speede also seeing they have many friends in the Kingdome Further you adde that if one sort may have an exemption from the Religion established why not others I answer There may be many reasons given why those may not have freedome of any great resorts in the Land which have often attempted by plots and treachery to ruinate the Land The next thing you affirme is if ever the doore of toleration should be but a little opened there would be great crowding in To this I answer That the more good men doe imbrace the whole truth of God the better it will be but there have beene too many crowders and creepers in in all ages and we may justly feare it will be so still for the Text saith in
the 2 Pet. 2. 2. That many shall follow their destruction and some of them shall doe it through covetousnesse who shall with fained words make merchandise of the Lords people as is plaine in the next verse whose destruction sleepeth not But who these creepers in be appeares by the 15. verse of this Chapter That they were they that loved the wages of unrighteousnesse as Balaam did But if any one so doe his last end shall be worse ' then his beginning Thus much for your ninth Reason IN your Tenth Reason you affirme That the first principle of the Independant way is That two or three Saints wheresoever or by what meanes soever they doe arise separating themselves from the world into the fellowship of the Gospell are a Church truely gathered for this you quete Mr. Robinsons Iustification pag. 221. But in that page there is no such thing written as I can finde but seeing it commeth so neere the truth we neede not to contend about it For I doe affirme that a company of Saints Separated from the world and gathered into the fellowship of the Gospell by what meanes so ever it be that matters not so it be by the teaching of the Sonne of God according to that in Heb. 1. 1. these Saints I say separating themselves and being gathered into the fellowship of the Gospell though they combine themselves without the warrant of the Governours are a true Church and have right to all Gods Ordinances not onely to admit men into fellowship but also to admonish to reprove and to cast out of their societie all obstinate offenders amongst them that doe transgresse either against the first or second Table having as hath beene said before the Spirit of God to guide them and wisedome from above to judge of persons and causes within the Church though they have nothing to doe to judge those that are without And this doth not make way for Libertisnime for Heresies and Sectaries as you say neither doth it make men to runne from their owne Ministers because they restraine them from sinne or keepe them to Gods Ordinances as you doe affirme for if any separate for any such cause they shall not be received into fellowship nor justified of any of the Lords people But the way of the Gospell as hath beene plainely proved is not to live without Gods Ordinances nor to live at liberty as you say except you meane the liberty wherein Christ hath set them and commanded them to stand fast because he hath made them free Gal. 5. 1. By this you may see the Saints are called into liberty but not a liberty to sinne as you would insinuate but to be freed from the yoake of bondage which is the tyranny or tyrannicall government of the Canon Lawes either of Rome or England But you say all heretickes Sectaries or libertines will count themselves Saints as well as the Independant men and the reason you seeme to give for this is because the Ministers and Magistrats of the Kingdome shall not have power to determine who be Saints * Now let all men judge what a weighty argument this is who is he that knows any thing knows not this that the Priests in England which are the Bishops creatures do generally justifie the wicked and condemne the just and are not these meet men to judge Saints they justifie none that will not be conformable and yeeld unto the traditions which they have invented in their Councels and Convocations though they have not one title of Gods Word to warrant them Furthermore they condemne all that will not submit to their devised worship even in all the traditions thereof and this is the dependancie which they have brought all men unto both high and low even to be subject to their wills which is a Law But now touching the Magistrate you would seeme to inferre that he should have no more power than a Priest It is plaine the Priests have no power but what they have by permission and sufferance though they have dependancie upon the Pope himselfe but the Magistrate hath power given him of God by whom he is set up for the praise of those that doe well and for the punishment of evill doers and hath the same rule given him whereby to judge them that God hath given to his Church especially Christian Magistrates notwithstanning they are opposed yet they have power given of God as you may reade in Acls 7 35. This man Moses whom they forsooke saying who maâ—e thee a Prince and a Iudge the same God sent for a Prince and a deliverer and this is he which was as a God unto Aaron when Aaron was as the mouth of Moses to the people Exod. 4. 16. Now if you Priests could have proved your selves as Aaron then you might have beene assistants to Godly Magistrates to deliver the Lords people out of the hands of Tyrannicall Princes but contrariwise you adde afflictions as Pharaohs Taskemasters did even you Mr. Edwards when you say the Lords people are wanton-witted and idle when they desire to have liberty to serve God And thus you sit in the consciences of men judging zeale to be hypocrisie but the time will come when every worke shall be brought to judgement And now drawing neere to an end of this Answer to your tenth Reason which is the last of this your joyned army it is good to looke backe a little and consider what hath beene said You have spoken much for Dependencie but upon whom you doe depend I cannot tell You labour to bring men into doubts by your suppositions but you doe not make any conclusion which is Gods way that men fearing God may expect a blessing when they walke in it but you cry out for Dependencie upon Councels and Synods and Churches I pray you what Dependencie hath the Church of England upon any other Church for I suppose you will say that all the Land is but one Church If you say that you have Dependencie upon the Church of Rome I doe beleeve you for the Bishop of Canterbury hath said so much in his booke where hee confesseth Rome to be as leprous Naaman and England to be the same Naaman cleansed Now that it is the same may easily be proved by divers of your owne Authors But you in your Epistle affirme it is not cleansed in that place where you say that there is yet Altars and Images brasen Serpents abused to Idolatry with divers other things which you would have purged out By this it appeares that it is the same with Rome in the very nature of it though not in every Circumstance and this for any thing can be discerned is the Dependancie for which you pleade even the Dependancie and affinitie betweene Rome and England Therefore you should rather have said That in the belly of this Dependancie doth lurke all liberty and heresie and whatsoever Sathan and the corrupt hearts of men have a pleasure to broach For in that