Selected quad for the lemma: saint_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
saint_n	according_a	church_n	faith_n	1,186	5	4.9429	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A83501	Reasons against the independant government of particular congregations: as also against the toleration of such churches to be erected in this kingdome. Together with an answer to such reasons as are commonly alledged for such a toleration. Presented in all humility to the Honourable House of Commons, now assembled in Parliament. By Tho. Edvvards, minister of the Gospel.	Edwards, Thomas, 1599-1647.; England and Wales. Parliament.	1641 (1641)	Wing E233; Thomason E167_16; ESTC R21753	47,020	78

they cannot grow up in grace and knowledge as becomes a Church of Christ there may be also all barbarousnesse and disorder for want of gifts in government in these weake Officers all which tends to the prejudice and hazard of the Soules hence this is given as the great reason by Divines of the examination of Ministers before Ordination and that to be by learned and able men because as there is nothing more profitable to the Church then good Pastors so nothing more pernitious then bad and unlearned Ministers Secondly suppose they might chuse well namely able men both for parts and soundnesse in the faith and it were lawfull also for the people to ordaine yet it may so fall out according to their principles of a Church that these visible Saints cannot Ordaine Officers as having no gifts of prayer for publicke especially not able to conceive prayers concerning the action in hand namely the Ordination of a Minister neither had they any gifts to make publicke exhortations and admonitions to the Pastor of his duty nor be able to know what to say to him at the admission of him into his Office What shall be done now shall the worke be staid and the Church want a Minister till she be able to doe these workes and duties They may for ought can be said be long nay ever without Ministers and so without Preaching of the Word and Sacraments which cannot but be very prejudiciall to their Salvation But to grant them that which needes not be granted according to their principles that this Church shall have some Offices as suppose a ruling Elder yet when a Pastor is to be chosen these Elders who have a gift in government may not be able nor competent to try and examine the gifts and parts of a Pastor nay yeeld them to have a Pastor and the Church would now chuse a Teacher one single Pastor though able in his gift of Exhortation and application may not be so able to try the gifts requisite to a Teacher whose gifts must be for exposition and controversies to preserve pure Doctrine Hence Amesius speaking of calling of Ministers to a Church saith that here is need of direction and helpe of Presbyters both of the same Church and for the most part of the Neighbour Churches But if he were able to try and examine yet how shall this Teacher be ordained there being but one Minister if Ministers of Neighbour Churches may not joyne also consider if they doe not fall into that which they complaine against in the Episcopacy namely for one man to have the sole power of Ordination So that by all these particulars you may see the Assumption proved Reason III. T Is not to be thought that Christ would institute such a government of his Church which affords no helpe nor allowes no way or remedy no not for one time or prima vice for innocent persons that are wronged but where being no place for appeales the parties oppressing must be the sole Judges of the cause It is counted an unequall unreasonable thing in governements that parties should be judges at all much lesse the sole and that there should be no way for persons oppressed to be righted But now in this Independant Church Government there is no reliefe no not at first for injured persons nor way of appeale to others who be not parties to heare their cause and determine here onely parties are Judges and no others may be admitted As for instance in one of their congregations the greatest number of that Church as it doth and may oft fall out is against the Pastor or Teacher and some other members upon a difference in some points of doctrine and being the greater number the Elders also taking part with them they proceed most unjustly to censures of deprivation and excommunication Now if all the power lye independantly in this particular Church so as there may be no other as Synods to appeale unto to heare the cause and right them this Minister and brethren thus censured must lye under these oppressions without all remedy and be debarred from the ordinances of Christ without helpe what remedy there is in such cases as this we desire them to shew us and that such cases as this may not and doe fall out cannot be denyed Now that Christ should institute such a governement in his Church where 't is unlawfull for any but parties properly so termed to be sole Judges and where there is no possibility of redresse for the innocent in cases of injury which may and do ordinarily fall out is not a thing to be imagined by reasonable men t is spoken of by these men for a strange practise in the Bishops that they should be Judges in their owne cause and give votes in it though yet there be besides them three times their number of voyces in the house of Lords how much more unreasonable may they judge it in their way of Church governement where parties who are Judges be greater in number so that I may speake of the Independancy of their Congregations as Cameron speakes of the popular government of their Congregations * It is not credible that our Lord Jesus Christ who is both King of Righteousnesse and King of Peace would have government to be in this way which hath no meanes nor way for Righteousnesse nor peace in his Church besides the practice of the Church of Antioch recorded in Scripture for our example is against it and gives us ground for appeale to others out of that Church and not to have the parties the Judges Acts 15. 1 2. because the dissention and disputation was betweene Paul and Barnabas and them of Judaea who taught Circumcision therefore the Church of Antioch thought it not fit that Paul and Barnabas should determine and end it but sent to others Apostles and Elders who were not parties against them of Judaea and they shall determine for them all Else had not the dissention and disputation beene betweene Paul and Barnabas and certaine of Judaea and that in the particular Church of Antioch they were able to have determined it without sending to Jerusalem but the Church judged it unequall that they who were the parties in the controversie should be the Judges Reason IV. THe light and Law of Nature with right reason is against the Independancy of particular Churches dictating leading us to dependancy a subordination and a consociation in government In all societies and bodies it is thus by the dictates of Nature and it is found necessary amongst bodies naturall and bodies politicke that the severall parts and particular members doe joyne in one for the good of the whole and that the whole being greater then a part the severall parts should be subject to and ordered by the whole as in a mans body the foote though it hath its proper use and operation is dressed lanched and ordered not by it selfe but by the hands and eyes In Cities and great Townes

protest against them though I must tell you that practise you judge your selves tyed to is founded upon a false principle namely that the power of government is given by Christ to the body of the Congregation Fifthly There is a medium betweene persecution as you terme it and a publicke Toleration a middle way betweene not suffering men to live in the Land and the granting them a liberty of separated Assemblies so that there is no necessity either of leaving the Land or of enjoying exempt Congregations for there is a third datur tertium as for Instance Persons may be tolerated to inhabit in a Land to enjoy their Lands and liberties and not be compelled to professe and practise things which are against their consciences It is one thing to be forced and compelled positively to doe things against conscience and another thing not to be suffered the publicke practise of some things in separated Congregations as to illustrate it thus suppose the Papists upon their petitions to the Parliament should have those statutes repealed which enjoynes them to come to our Churches which they say is against their consciences though indeed they are bound by the command of God to come and ought by the Magistrate to be compelled to come as Doctor Davenant hath cleerely showed yet the granting the Papists a Toleration of the publicke exercise of their Religion to the scandall of the Reformed Churches and dishonour of God were quite another thing insomuch as the Papists though they petition the first upon deepe Protestation of living peaceably and according to the Lawes of the Land yet they move not for the last so I judge you may live in the Land freely and enjoy your liberties and estates comming to our Churches enjoying the ordinances and are like never to be compelled to professe or practise what is against your judgements the greatest inconvenience is but the forbearing of something you would have which considering the questionablenesse of the thing and the many other evills which would attend it if you should enjoy it you may in point of conscience be well satisfied without it so that consider well and you may find a medium betweene leaving the Land and enjoying a Toleration of exempt Congregations Sixthly If all these former answers satisfie you not fully because though these things be true yet besides these Ordinances and Ministers you must be in a Church way and Fellowship as now you are then know according to your Principles of a visible Church laid downe by Master Robinson and by your selves in all your Manuscripts you may enjoy your way in having severall visible Churches and that without that offence and scandall to Magistrates and Churches and yet neither leave the Kingdome nor have a Toleration and that I will demonstrate thus two or three Saints joyning together in a Covenant make a Church a greater number is not required neither Officers to the essence of a Church a greater addition of company to this two or three though they may make for the well being and flourishing of the Church yet they are not of the essence of the Church Now then every one of you in your owne Families as the Husband Wife Children of age and Servants who are visible Saints may be joyned in covenant to walke in Gods wayes and to watch over one another so that here is a Church and every Master in his Family may set up holy exercises and exercise Discipline among themselves for their Families and thus in the Church that is in their house they may exercise what Discipline they judge is wanting in ours so that comming to our Churches to the Word Prayer Sacraments they may serve God in their owne Families among themselves in a Church way in wayes of admonition reproofe and other censures nay every Church Family or most of them may have Officers also amongst them the Ministers Families may have a Pastor or Teacher each Minister being made Pastor of his owne Family chosen also he may be by his Family who also may Preach and instruct his Family and exercise Discipline amongst them great Families as Gentlemen or Citizens may themselves be teachers of their Families according to your Principles or may have some in their Families fit to be chosen Elders and Teachers to them especially such of them who keepe Schollers in their houses and still chosen by the Church of this Family But if there be some Church Families who have none fit for Officers to their Church which can hardly be in these kindes of Churches yet this is not of the essence of the Church But as for single persons as Young men and Mayds who are of your judgement if you aske what they shall doe seeing they have no Families and cannot joyne two or three in a Family to make a Church I answer they may be Servants unto men of their owne judgement and live in the Families of their owne way and so may be in a Church And thus you may enjoy your owne way without scandall or division the Lawes not forbidding or medling what men doe in this kind as how oft men pray in their owne Families or catechise them or whom they shut out from their Prayers and holy duties But if it be said how shall such as are bred Schollers the Ministers of this way be maintained it is not being Ministers to their owne Family will maintaine them I answer I have taken care to show them a way for maintenance also how they may enjoy their Country their Consciences and maintenance that so they need not be forced to seeke a Toleration of Churches that they may be maintained and that is thus Supposing they will not take Pastorall charges of Parishes but onely be Pastors of the Church in their house yet holding it lawfull as they doe to Preach in our Congregations they may take Lectures amongst us and so be maintained there will be want of many men for Lectures setled by gifts of the dead and then no question but the government of the Church which shall be established by Law will be so moderate that if men hold the maine points of Doctrine with the Church be pious in life and peaceable so as not to Preach nor speake against what 's established by Law nor doe not make Schismes to goe and set up separated Assemblies which practises caused troubles in the Church they may enjoy all liberty and as many Scriptures show freedome though in point of opinion and judgement there may be some difference from things established by Law for I suppose we shall not have subscriptions enjoyned to formes of government and Discipline but onely to Doctrines and that also in maine and cleere poynts so that by all this you may apprehend how without a Toleration you may in a secret and peaceable way enjoy your Church fellowship with maintenance also What ever else you seeke for by a Toleration of many Families to make a Church is but for the more comfort