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A62870 Præcursor, or, A forerunner to a large review of the dispute concerning infant-baptism wherein many things both doctrinall and personal are cleared, about which Mr. Richard Baxter, in a book mock-titled Plain Scripture-proof of infants church-membership and baptism hath darkned the truth / by John Tomes. Tombes, John, 1603?-1676. 1652 (1652) Wing T1812; ESTC R27540 101,567 110

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those at this day it 's likely are not guilty of much scandal in practise when Cloppenburg Gangr Anabapt disput 148. Ampliug dial thesi 2. Mr. Paget defence of Church-govern part 1. ch 4. who lived neare them make it their fault that they are strict in excommunicating for small matters and Cloppenburg in the Epistle Dedicatory to his Gangrene saith The troopes of Anabaptists that dwelt in Friesland after the commotions at Munster although they trouble not the Common-wealth having cast off corporal weapons yet they suffer not the more pure reformed Churches to be edified without daily conflicts From whence I gather that their conversation there is as other mens saving for their rigid discipline and different opinions in the most whereof whether truly or falsly charged on them by Cloppenburgius they are not owned by those in England whose Confession is extant To Mr. Bs. charging of me of untruths and covetousnesse and malice and contempt of my brethren page 202 203. there is an answer made before and after where speeches and practises to prove these are objected He chargeth me with pride in my usual way of putting off the authority of their arguments and judgements with a contemptuous smile or wonder at the sillinesse of them But therein there is no despising of their persons but onely of their arguments which if I know to be weak I dare not make shew as if I counted them strong that were to put darknesse for light and if I do shew dislike with a smile or wonder though others rather say I do reject them with anger mistaking my earnestnesse in speaking for that passion this is usually lesse offensive then alteration of wordes And if I use wondering at their sillinesse I am sure Mr. B. is not behind me in this book whose frequent exclamations of sillinesse c. are to be seene where he had little or no cause but the defect of his own apprehension as shall appear in the examining his book and therefore if for this I be judged proud Mr. B. should do well to search himself who differs from the most learned and godly in the world in more things then I do and I imagine with more peremptorinesse and lesse evidence then I bring from my adversaries own confessions Perfidiousnesse he chargeth me not with it is a great question in this age whether it be a sin Answ. I think it is no question whether breaking of Covenants and oathes be a sin but whether the not setling uniformity according to the advice of the Assembly at Westminster the not conjoining with the Scots the engagement to the present government c. be perfidiousnesse or no Wherein if Mr. B. hold the affirmative it 's very probable there will be found some to encounter with him when his arguments are seen in writing What he tells me that my not reproving the prophaning the Lords day and excusing my self from resolving the question concerning its morality hath no good savour is a charge which I imagine comes from some tale brought Mr. B. whereby he is abused I have spoken against prophaning the Lords day as I have judged meet in the places I have preached my judgement about its morality is succinctly set down Examen part 2. sect 8. At Bewdley I did often in my prefaces before I began morning-exercises at the chappel on the Lords day presse them to the observation of it and in my Cursory Exposition of the three first chapters of the Revelation on publique fast-dayes and of Genesis on the Lords day delivered my self more fully in opening Gen. 2. 3. Revel 1. 10. And when the question was propounded in the weekly meeting we had to edifie one another Whether the observation of every first day of the week as a Sabbath be of Divine institution I resolved it at the next meeting affirmatively And after I had in one or two Lectures for so I may call my dictates at Bewdley in resolving their hard questions cleared the termes 1. Concerning the measure of the first day of the week examining whether precisely 24. houres and when to begin and when to end are necessary for the account of the time resolving it to be measured for observation as we do other dayes for working allowing time for necessities 2. Concerning the observation of a Sabbath what is requisite thereto wherein I resolved that it is to be observed by rest and holinesse about both which I resolved many cases At the next time I drew the substance of my proof into this one syllogisme If solemne worship of God in full congregations be required of God and fixed dayes be necessary thereto and observed by all or most Nations even Heathens nor belongs it to any but God to appoint it to his service and God appointed a seventh day Sabbath from the beginning and commanded it in the fourth Commandement a mong the morals and the Apostles distinguished from other dayes the Lords day by title precept and example as appropriate to God and Christians with common consent so took it and used it after their dayes the Jewish Sabbaths being abrogated then the observation of every first day of the week as a Sabbath is of Divine institution But solemn worship of God c. Ergo. The sequel of the Major I stood not long in proving supposing some morality of a Sabbath being infolded in the first institution and the fourth Commandement and the Apostles fixing that on the Lords day is a sufficient declaration of Gods mind to have it observed But the Minor I proved by parts And after I had proved the two first Propositions by reason first of the failing of the meeting through some sad accidents and then the removing of my dwelling books and my seldome being with them I did not prosecute it till one moved that I would resolve them about that question whether it were to tempt me or otherwise they know who had a hand in it I told them what I had done already and that of what I had begun I had not any breviate about me but I conceived that in my study I had and therefore I desired their respite till my next comming to them that I might by reviewing what I had done and adding some further reading fit my self to resolve them in which they seemed to rest but it 's likely some or othertold Mr. B. of this who I perceive wanted not tale-bearers and he in imagine sticks not to interpret this my respite which he calls an excuse from resolving the question concerning the morality of the Lords day though I had long before resolved it but had not fully confirmed my argument as having some ill savour of licentiousnesse though about a moneth after I repaired to them and so fully confirmed the other seven Propositions that the company who were as many of the best-affected and intelligent there as the roome could hold declared themselves satisfied thereabout Mr. B. also page 258. saies of my exceptions against one story in
I confesse the conference at Col. Taylors house 1646. and the reading of his arguments as was said 1647. but the conference being not written nor the notes then in my hand there were left onely some imperfect and obscure apprehensions of them in me which in respect of giving a distinct answer were all one as if I knew them not at all by reason of which I was very desirous to get his arguments in writing that I might be the better able to answer them and satisfie others which Mr. B. not yielding to I could not give answer but on the sudden without premeditation the arguments being gone from me like Nehuchad-nezzars dream and I did imagine and accordingly used these words in a letter It was said you would hide your weapon till you were to use it In which opinion his taking hold of so many indirect ways for advantages to possesse mens minds with his opinion and to hinder a free examination of what is said on both sides do confirme me And that things may be apprehended nakedly as they were I do acknowledge that it is my disposition be it dulnesse or wearinesse to pause on a new argument whether in reading or conference so that I cannot oft-times give a clear answer to an argument I have not bin used to on a sudden no nor many times to an argument I have been versed in when it is not under my eye when other matters possesse my memory when fear of speaking ineptly doth benumme me and hinder my elocution when I have some obscure notion of a fallacy which at present I cannot readily discover Which knowledge of my self made me unwilling to come to a publick dispute or extemporal conference with Mr. B. whom I had found in conferences I had with him to be quick in apprehension and expression various and copious in multiplying arguments and expressions captious of advantages ready to expose even to contempt with shew of disdain those that speak not according to his mind which made me conceive I should neither well remember nor weigh his arguments afore I must answer nor clear truth nor satisfie my self or others but occasion glorying in Mr. B. and settling people in his error Neverthelesse presaging by his declining to argue by writing and his words in his letter Sept. 6. if I should refuse a conference called before an open verbal dispute on such advantages I should think it were almost to yield my cause naught that it would be taken as if I did confesse I could not answer him after much endeavour in vain to get his arguments in writing that I might consider of them before the dispute I yielded to be ready to justifie my doctrine openly or privately by word or writing as should be judged convenient Whereupon Mr. B. having drawn me to agree upon Jan. 1. 1649 without any agreement about stating the question order or rules of the dispute notaries on both sides to set down what was said people being gathered together from other places by his party and a place in state prepared for him with his abettors schollers and others on both sides him I my self alone without any notary or assistant was forced to answer him prepared in this unexpected manner lest I should have endammaged the cause by seeming tergiversation yet presuming that I should have found such dealing after by communicating to me in writing his arguments afore printing or at lest forbearing to print my answers till I had viewed and rectified them that might have repaired what seeming disadvantage the truth had by my present answers in which I found my selfe extreamly deceived my motion of having his arguments in writing after the dispute being answered by quarrelling with me about things on the by and in a subdolous and indirect way filling the land with conceits as if his tenet and arguments were unanswerable and I a person pertinarious without reason By this true relation the truth of my intimation of the suddenness of the assault my ignorance of his arguments my speeches concerning his concealing his arguments provoking me to dispute are verified the reasons of my desiring his arguments in writing the cause of varying my answers at the dispute and why to so weake arguments no fuller answers were then given and why I said at Bewdley which I still think I preached nothing but truth to them are assigned about all which Mr. B. hath endeavoured to misrepresent me and my proceedings in his History of the conception of his Treatise As for Mr. Bs. inclination now to think me a very proud man however he thought heretofore and that I have higher thoughts of my self then was meete because of my dissent from so many Churches and God'y Divines and because of my answer in private to him about the reason I gave why the error of infant-baptisme being easie to be discerned was not discerned through wilfulnesse or negligence I say 1. My dissent is not singular nor my reasons and writings such but that such a one as my self might be allowed to hold my tenet without imputations of selfe-conceitednesse arrogance c. Mr. B. varies from Churches and learned men about justification and faith in his Aphorismes what he can say for himself why he should not be censured as he censures me may perhaps be my plea. I cannot alter my own judgement or others but by arguments nor dare I say I do see what I do not 2. As for my speech in private which me thinks it was somewhat against the lawes of friendship for him thus to publish I know not what better answer yet to give but to ascribe it to prejudice or faction or some such like cause that men are so wilful or negligent as not to examine and discerne the errour of infant-baptism so manifestly discernable by applying to it their own rules and positions in reformation of Popish and Prelatical corruptions And I do conceive the same or like answer would be given about the Lutherans holding consubstantiation images to be retained in Temples ubiquity of Christs body conditional predestination and sundry the like tenets which may be a just censure without pride That which Mr. B. saies And lest my touching that controversy though at a distance might irritate him to fall upon it I never spake one word to my best remembrance in my congregation of it to this day for fear of giving any occasion of difference page 209. I never preached one sentence before the dispute nor since to his hearers or mine that I can remember on the question Page 281. I never spake one word against his opinion in my pulpit to this day shewes his memory retaines not all he printed in his Saints everlisting rest preached on the Lecture-dayes at Kederminster As page 534. We should see the promises made good to our seed and the unthankful Anabaptists that will not confesse That the children of the Saints are any nearer to God or more beholding to him then Pagans so much as for the