presses all men to endeavour after perfection in every grace and vertue and especially to be much in works of mercy and charity but yet she does not fright people with stories of Purgatory to bring in their wealth to the Church nor teach them that there is any great perfection in leaving their honest callings to run into a Monastery bringing their riches along with them thither She requires constant temperance and sobriety and sometimes imposes fasting and abstinence but then whether men eat a little flesh or fish oyl or butter she thinks it not a matter of the least moment but leaves all men to their own choice and prudence In a word she does not with the Pharisee teach for doctrines the commands of men but diligently inculcates the express commandments of Almighty God delivered to us in his holy Word And tho' she would not have us so foolish and proud as to think of meriting Heaven by our own good works yet she teaches that upon our patient continuance in well doing we shall through the mercies of God and the merits of Christ certainly obtain eternal life but upon no others terms does she encourage any man to hope for it And thus you see how our Church teaches us to take that same safe and narrow but sweet and pleasant way to salvation which is proposed to us in the Gospel L. I am fully perswaded she does so God grant me grace ever to walk in this holy way and then I shall not doubt of an happy end Pray proceed to his last argument T. I shall so and this it is That Church is not to be heard which has no solid reason for her keeping the Sabbath-day on the day she does keep it but no Church or Congregation of Sectaries has this and therefore none of them ought to be heard What say you to this L. I say that we of the Church of England whom he unjustly calls Sectaries have good reason for our keeping the Sabbath on that day we do keep it even as good reason as the Church of Rome it self has T. He goes on to prove the contrary thus No Church of Sectaries has Scripture for keeping the Sabbath-day on Sunday and no longer on Saturday as God commanded it and yet they reject tradition upon which ground the Roman Church keeps the Sunday in lieu of Saturday and therefore they have no solid reason for what they do c. L. I answer we have Scripture for keeping one day in seven viz. the fourth Commandment And we read that after our Saviours Resurrection the Apostles and Disciples commonly assembled together on the first day of the week which is called the Lords-day Revel 1. 10. And then we have tradition to assure us that this day was observed by the Christian Church ever since which tradition we may plead for our practice I trow as well as the Church of Rome T. Yes certainly we may for though we reject a great many ill things which they would thrust upon us for old traditions many of them being meer novelties of their own devising yet we do by no means reject such traditions as have sufficient evidence of their having been generally received by all Christian Churches from the very times of the Apostles down to our days and of this nature do learned men generally affirm the observation of the Lords-day to be And what you alledg from Scripture may very well serve to recommend to us so ancient and general a practice To all this besides the great equity and reasonableness of the thing in it self you may add the authority of those whom God hath set over us in Church and State all which being put together leaving the nice disputes that have been about this matter is a sufficient ground for our observation of the first day of the week as a Christian Sabbath a day of rest from our common employments devoted to the more solemn worship and service of God both in publick and private As solid reason therefore do we give for our practice herein as the Church of Rome it self can do or any other Church in the world And thus we have done with his five mighty arguments in which upon a little examination there appears nothing of strength or solidity He next musters up some weighty objections as he reckons them against those whom he calls Sectaries which he says ought to make them very much doubt whether they be secure in the way they are in And here according to his usual vain way of bragging he makes this large offer which yet he will never make good that all Priests Jesuits and Catholicks over all the world will turn to their way if they can but get from their Ministers a clear and satisfactory resolution of the following doubts L. It was cunningly done of him to call for a satisfactory resolution since though it be as clear as the light at noon-day yet they may still pretend that it is not satisfactory T. They may so though I question not but it will appear such to all that are impartial and judicious These doubts I shall propose to you in order and hear what you your self can say for the resolving of them L. I shall give in the best answers I am able and where I am at a loss shall still desire your help CHAP. II. A resolution of some doubts and questions proposed to Protestants T. FIrst he demands whether it can be clearly shewn that our Ministers were sent by Almighty God to preach and to reform the Roman Catholick Church or whether they are not some of the false Prophets who say The Lord saith when the Lord hath not sent them Ezek. 13. 6. L. There seems no great difficulty in resolving this doubt since our Ministers had lawful Ordination and thereby had authority to preach the Word of God And by the light of this word they discovered many errors and abuses in the Roman Church wherewith we were foully polluted and by Gods blessing and the assistance of lawful authority they were very instrumental in reforming us from the same Now whilst they proved their Doctrine by this Word of God they are not to be compared to those false Prophets who taught the people lyes and vanity as we have it Ezek. 13. 7 8. T. Your answer is sufficient and very clear For since our first Reformers did not publish a new Religion but rather restored the old by removing those corrupt additions that had been made to it they did not need any extraordinary commission from Heaven such as Moses had from God when he delivered the Law and as the Apostles had from Jesus Christ when they were first sent to preach the Gospel But it was sufficient that they were duly qualified by Gods Spirit for the work of the Ministry and were lawfully called to it by those who had authority in the Church to ordain them to that Office Such as these are truly said to be sent of God and are therefore
members of their Church they do separate themselves from all other Christians in the world who disown this Universal Headship of the Pope with the rest of their errors L. But they boast much of the Union of their Church because say they go where you will you shall find the same Worship the same Mass and this frequented in all places where their Church is owned by the members of it T. Still this is but an Union amongst themselves such I say as any party may have Quakers for instance may go to Quakers Meetings where ever they travel and yet still remain a Schismatical party And though I lay no great stress upon it yet formerly even in the Church of Rome however it is now with them they have had much variety in their publick Offices according to the different Usages of different places But still I say be they never so perfectly agreed in their own way of worship as well as in Doctrine there is nothing in this to prove them the One Catholick Church Nay it does not so much as prove them to be One with it as a sound part thereof except their Doctrine and Worship be such as agrees with that of the Catholick Church in all ages For any party I have told you may agree amongst themselves even whilst they are schismatically divided from others L. But they say our Church of England is not thus united because many separate from her Prayers and Sacraments T. And what is there no Unity therefore amongst the members of our Church because there are some who through peevishness weakness or any other cause separate from it Does not the main body of the people of this Kingdom through Gods mercy joyn in Religious communion and can freely resort to any Parish Church where they happen to be If some that live in the Nation will not thus joyn is that an argument against the union of those that do In some Popish Countries are there not many thousands who separate from the Church of Rome And do they take that for a good reason to prove them not to be united who joyn with it I trow not but yet it may do much to prove there is little true union amongst them to consider by what means they are held together viz. partly by force and violence at least in many places and partly by keeping the people in ignorance And is it not a fine kind of union think you to have men chain'd together in Iron fetters and kept in a dark Dungeon where they are not able to stir a foot from each other had they never so much mind And had the people in Italy and Spain but more light and more liberty you would quickly see what vast numbers would depart from their communion there as they have done in other places But ignorance is the bond of their union as well as the mother of their Devotion L. Yet is there nothing more common with them than to cry up the Unity of their Church and to exclaim against the divisions which they say are in ours T. They exclaim against them whilst more ways than one they endeavour to promote them They use also their utmost arts to aggravate and enhance them and make them be thought much greater than they are whilst they cunningly endeavour to lessen and conceal those amongst themselves which yet I reckon to be far greater than even those betwixt our Church and the generality of such as dissent from it And sometimes these their differences have been managed with as much heat and violence and have produced fighting and bloodshed as you will find largely related in the most learned Dr. Stillingfleet's Discourse on that subject But besides this certainly the Papists of all people have little reason to cry out against Schismaticks and Sectaries since they themselves will be found to be as great Schismaticks as any at this day amongst us and as dangerous too if we may judg of them by their principles For besides that the whole Popish Church may justly be accounted Schismatical in dividing it self from the rest of Christendom of which more hereafter those of them who live amongst us do wholly separate from our Church and pass a much more heavy doom upon us than I think most of our other Sectaries do For these do generally acknowledg the Church of England to be a true Church and grant her Doctrine to be sound and good and profess to hold communion with us in faith and love whilst they withdraw from us on account of some Modes and Ceremonies in Divine Worship Thus it is with many of them but now the Papists do plainly declare against our Church and Ministers that we have no true Faith nor Sacraments nor Christian virtue or piety but are cursed Hereticks in the most miserable state of damnation And all this chiefly because we submit not to the usurpation of a foreign power that of the Pope which at least in Spirituals they prefer before the power of our own Governours whether in Church or State So that in obedience to the Bishop of Rome who hath no more to do in England than the Bishop of Ierusalem they make no scruple of disobeying the King and Bishops and all the Laws of the Land at least I say in all matters that relate to Religion And whilst the Pope himself is Judg in the case what may he not hook in under that pretence And therefore may the Papists amongst us justly be reckoned as Schismaticks whilst they refuse communion with that Christian Church where they live which is a sound part of Christs Catholick Church and requires nothing unlawful of its members And very dangerous they are because they prefer a foreign Usurper before all the power of our own Church Especially if you also consider the current Doctrine of their Church that this same Usurper the Bishop of Rome has power to depose Heretical Kings as they account ours and to absolve their subjects from their Allegiance and dispose of their Kingdoms to others And this most intollerable tyranny over Princes have sundry Popes exercised when they have had power in their hands and have more than once attempted it in these Kingdoms Yea to this day many of the rigid and stricter sort of Papists refuse to take the Oath of Allegiance wherein this extravagant power of the Pope is denied Judg then whether I had not reason to say that men retaining these principles and on that account rejecting our communion are themselves such notorious and dangerous Schismaticks as have little reason to accuse others of schisms and divisions L. But though we own not the Pope to be an Infallible Iudg of Controversies have not we sufficient means for union in our Church T. Yes we have so whilst we acknowledg the Holy Scriptures to be the Infallible Rule of Faith in which all things necessary to salvation are plainly revealed and do also grant that the Governours of our Church have power to compose all differences
probable are the wicked till then thrown into the sorest punishment And so far the condition of both may be said to be a middle state betwixt what it is now on earth and what it will be after the day of Judgment But in this state we know of nothing to be done either by the persons themselves or by any on earth for them to mend their condition The souls of the righteous are in the hand of the Lord in rest and peace chearfully expecting the perfection of their glory and joy and the condition of the wicked may seem most like that of the faln Angels as it 's described Jude v. 6. in everlasting chains of darkness reserved to the Judgment of the great day And betwixt these already is the great gulf fixt that there is no passing from one to the other to find or give relief Much less can the prayers or alms of surviving friends afford any refreshment to miserable souls And some there are even of the Church of Rome so modest and ingenuous that they have discoursed much at this rate concerning the middle state of souls departed and have exprest their opinion that it was not so much the prayers said for the dead that gave them relief as the charitable temper they died in when they left money for pious uses But for the freedom such Writers have taken both they and their writings have been severely censured and condemned at Rome L. What makes them so zealous in the case T. You need not go far for a reason when you consider how much gain is hereby brought in to the Crafts masters what vast summs of money are given to the Church by dying men frightned with the dreadful stories of Purgatory What will they not then give for a speedy deliverancé thence And this they are taught not to hope for without good store of Masses for which the Priests that say them expect to be well paid So that there is a great deal of truth in that common blunt saying that Purgatory-fire keeps the Popes Kitchin warm No wonder then if they are so angry with those that go about to quench it This Doctrine moreover it is that chiefly keeps up the market for Indulgences which whatever they do now were heretofore wont to bring in vast treasures to the Popes Coffers by several arts which he used in putting them off L. On what pretence do they give out these Indulgences T. Sell them you should rather have said for so they have used to do and did it at such a shameful rate in Germany as gave the first occasion for the Reformation there But to answer your question their pretence is that there is a vast treasure of merits in the Church and that not only of Christ's but of the Saints too who have done and suffered much more than was necessary for themselves so that they can spare somewhat for others And this treasure you must know is in the Popes keeping who can by the fulness of his power dispense it as he pleases and apply it to particular persons in what measure and upon what terms he thinks fit And the benefit of these is said to be the freeing them from temporary punishments due for faults already pardoned and this freedom they are to enjoy not only upon earth in being eased of long penances but also in Purgatory from whence they shall sooner be delivered by virtue of these Indulgences L. I do not well understand how there is a punishment still due after the fault 's pardoned T. Nor any body else I think for a fault is then said to be pardoned when the punishment is remitted Indeed God may so far pardon a Penitent as not to punish him with eternal misery and yet he may inflict bodily punishments in this life as a malefactor may have a pardon for his life and yet may be burnt in the hand or the like but so far as a man is punished so far he was not pardoned L. Do not these Indulgences then free men from bodily punishments which otherwise they must undergo T. That indeed would be somewhat if they could free men from Gout and Stone and all such diseases as do either naturally flow from their vices or are inflicted by God as punishments for them then I say a man would not grudg to purchase Indulgences at a dear rate for besides his ease and health it might save all the money spent upon Physicians But this alas the great Champions for Indulgences dare not pretend to and full easily they might be confuted if they did Wherefore Bellarmine confesses they do not free men from natural evils diseases or the like which are the fruits of sin nor yet from such fines and penalties as may in Courts be inflicted for their offences What then is left besides the imaginary pains of Purgatory But by the little force their Indulgences have in this world a man has cause to suspect they will be no more effectual in the other But the best on 't is no body comes thence to tell tales how they are cheated and so the trade goes on smoothly And were it mony only that the poor people are cheated of by these vile arts the matter were not much but alas we have great cause to fear that many are hereby deluded to the loss of their immortal souls of more value than the whole world instead of a temporary Purgatory from which they hoped to be secured at easier rates than a timely repentance and thorough reformation how many fall into that eternal misery which is threatned to the wicked and impenitent from whence no money nor Masses no prayers nor tears can ever release them L. Yet they say we Protestants are strangely unkind to our friends departed that we will not so much as put up a prayer to God for them but seem quite to neglect and forget them T. They have little reason to accuse us for this since of all the instances of charity any where recommended in Scripture we never find this mentioned that we should pray for our friends after they are dead Why then should we pretend to such a piece of charity as neither God hath commanded nor any the most holy charitable persons of old ever practised If it were fit for us to give way to our own fancies why might it not look like a piece of charity to pray for those in Hell that their pains may be mitigated or shortned But have we any warrant from God so to do Or dare Papists themselves presume to do it Such as these we look on out of the reach of prayers And for those in Heaven they surely are past the need of them farther than what was before mentioned that whilst we pray for the coming of Christ we therein comprehend the consummation of their felicity How little reason then have we to pray for our friends departed The greatest kindness that I know we can shew them is to preserve a grateful remembrance of their