the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a
from shrine to shrine to encrease your offerings which wickednes if S. Hierom had seene in his time he would haue taunted you a litle better than euer he did Vigilantius In the prayers which were made to God at his Altar we graunt with S. Austine The commendation of the dead by the custome of the Vniuersall Church had a speciall place but your prayer for soules in Purgatorie was neuer Catholique And where you send vs to S. Austens Enchiridion ca. 110. for that kind of prayer looke againe to the wordes and you shall find there no certaine doctrine but a doubtfull diuision consisting of three partes and not one of them prouing your Purgatorie When the sacrifices of the Altar or any other almes are offered for all that were baptized before they died for such as are very good they be saith he thankesgiuings to God for those that be not altogether ill they be propitiations that is procuring of mercie for such as be very bad though they be no helpers to the dead they bee some comforts to the liuing and whome they profite they profite them thus farre either to purchase them ful remission or at least more tolerable damnation The first part of this diuision that sacrifices for the dead are thankesgiuings to God is a poynt that now you can not heare of the last that they comfort the liuing but helpe not the dead by no meanes you will admit the middle is it that you stand on and that is nothing but this whom they profit they procure either full remission or at lest a more tolerable damnation Where S. Austen doth not affirme which of the twaine they shall procure but vseth a disiunctiue and of the twaine rather enclineth to the later as the likelier by correcting him selfe in this wise they shall haue remission or at lest a more tolerable damnation And for your better assurance that S. Austen on whom you relie neuer taught your Purgatorie for a matter of Catholique faith we send you back to the same father and the same booke the 69. chapter where he sayth It is not incredible that there is some such thing after this life and whether it be so it may be a question and it may be either found out or lie hid that some of the faithfull obteine saluation by a Purgatorie fire so much the sooner or later by howe much the more or lesse they loued the transitorie goods of this life If it may lie hid then is it no ground of Christian faith which must be fully beleeued of all men neither coulde the prayers of the Church depende vpon the doubtfull opinion of Purgatorie which by S. Austens owne iudgement is superfluous to be discussed and most dangerous to be resolued The rest of your places in this chapter amounting to the number often doe you litle good and vs lesse harme we receiue them without exception or distinction The words of Maximinus the Arrian you wittingly peruert to make them like ours wherein you discouer your malice and touch not our doctrine for Arius as you may reade in that disputation which Athanasius had with him vpbrayded the fathers for vsing the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not found in all the bookes of the new or old testament whereas the Church of Christ alwayes professed to beleeue nothing but what was plainely written in the sacred scriptures The selfe same cauil Maximinus vrged S. Augustine with Hae verò voces quae extra scripturam sunt nullo casu a nobis suscipiuntur These wordes and not as you translate these sayings which are not in the scripture by no meanes we receiue This obiection wee grant was both foolish and hereticall and if wee vrge you with any such spare vs not We striue with you not for names words but for poynts and Principles of faith and those we say must bee proued by the scriptures S. Paul sayd so before vs Faith is by hearing hearing out of the word of God Mauger your traditions and vnwritten verities this is a Christian and Catholique position which all the fathers confirme with one consent as shall be shewed in place conuenient In the meane time wee saie with Basill that I trowe was no Arrian Manifestus est a fide lapsus crimen maximae superbiae vel a scripto recedere vel non scriptum admittere It is a manifest fall from faith and a sinne that argueth infinite pride either to leaue that which is written or admit that which is not written Your sixt chapter handleth no matter of religion as being purposely made to excuse you from Treason and hath nothing in it any way materiall saue onely that vpon the name of Masse-priest you fall into a great rage and will needes proue the Apostles themselues the ancient fathers of all ages were masse priests And that you do ful clarkly For wheresoeuer you find the word oblation or sacrifice in any father you presently put him in the Decke for a masse-Priest I maruaile you be not ashamed professing so deepe knowledge to send vs ouer such vaine trifles The very children in England doe knowe the Lordes supper is a sacrifice of thankesgiuing a memoriall of Christes oblation on the crosse dayly renewing his death in a mysterie which is the true meaning of the twelue places that here you bring and of twelue hundred mo that might be brought to the like effect but this is nothing to the sacrifice of your masse where you professe that Christ is couered with accidents of bread and wine and offered really with your handes to God his father for the remission of your sinnes shewe but one father for this kinde of sacrifice and we will agnise not onely these whome you name but also Melchisedec and Malachie for Masse-priests Searching fiue hundred foure score and thirteene yeres after Christ with al diligence you find the worde Missa twise once in Ambrose and once in Leo and in a brauerie you demaund of vs Were they Masse-priests that sayd those masses But what if the word Missa did then not signifie the Masse but a dismissing of the Catechists before and of the faithful after the Lords supper where is your great and glorious triumphe become Looke to the fourth Counsell of Carthage the 84. Canon Let the Bishop forbid no man to enter the Church and heare the word of God neither Iew Gentile nor heretike vsque ad missam Catechumenorum that is till the Catechists be sent away not vntil the Catechists masse For they which were not yet baptized could not be present at the ministration of the Lords supper therefore Missa doth signifie the dismissing of them as the manner was in the primitiue Church to send away first the Catechists next the Repentants and last of all to giue the faithfull leaue to depart when the communion was ended which three dimissions were sometime called in the plurall number Missae
wils you be deceiued not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God which maketh those willing at last which were vnwilling at first Did the Niniuites repent against their willes because they did it at the compulsion of their king What needed the kings expresse commandement that all men should humbly submit themselues to God but that there were some amongst them which neither would haue regarded nor beleeued Gods message had they not bene terrified by the kings edict This Princely power and authoritie giueth many mē occasion to be saued which though they were violently brought to the feast of the great housholder yet being once cōpelled to come in they find there good cause to reioyce that they did enter against their willes When Petilian obiected that no man must be forced by lawes to doe well or to beleeue S. Austen replieth To faith in deed may no man vnwilling bee forced but yet by Gods iustice or rather mercy The breath of faith is chastened with the rod of affliction Because the best thinges are freely chosen with good lyking must not therefore ill deedes be punished by syncere Lawes You be not forced to doe well by these lawes that are made against you but forbidden to doe euill Preposterous were discipline to reuenge your ill liuing but when you first contemne the doctrine that teacheth you to liue well And euen they which make lawes to bridle your headynes are they not those which beare the sworde as Paul speaketh not without cause being Gods ministers and executors of wrath on him that doth ill Who list to be farther satisfied that Christian Princes may compel their subiects to the true worship of God prescribed in his word and punish the refusers let him read at large the places aboue cited or shortly consider that the spirit of God cōmendeth king Iosiah for making all Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant which he renewed with God and COMPELLING ALL THAT WERE FOVND IN ISRAEL TO SERVE THE LORD THEIR GOD. So that you might haue well spared your wanton complaint to God and kept in your Crocodiles teares Your Soueraigne doeth nothing against you but what is agreeable to Gods and mans lawe consonant to the doctrine of our Churhes much easier than that which your selues practised on others neither is this our question what rites you consented vnto but what fayth Christ deliuered his Church in the writings of his Apostles and Euangelists for to that euery man which is baptised may bee lawfully forced by the Princes authoritie let him and his forefathers assent to what they list except you can proue that baptisme serueth no longer for a sacrament of Christian religion but goeth now for a Romish recognisance Phi. Our griefe of heart is much encreased either when we looke into other States and Countries as Germania Suitzerland Suecia Boemia and the like where though there haue bene great alterations in religion these late yeeres yet lightly none bee forced so but if they can not haue the exercise of their profession in one torritorie Canton towne Church or Parish yet they may haue it neere them in an other as also in all the Prouinces and Kingdomes subiect either to the Persians or the Turke at this day The old Christians be permitted to vse freely their deuotions or when we looke backe to the like distresses of Catholikes in old time when certaine Emperours were chiefe fautors of Arianisme and other Sectes who yet were often enduced of their naturall benignitie to yeeld certaine Churches or at lest Oratories in Churchyards and other places adioyning for the Catholique seruice in their dominions So did Constantius the Arian Emperour Valens graunt to S. Athanasius and his followers in Alexandria which Valens God plagued afterward because he would not suffer the same at Antioche Valentinian also the yonger profered the like to S. Ambrose in Millan Theo. Are you well in your wits to lament the lacke of that in this Realme which God in plaine words detesteth and with sore plagues reuengeth Haue you forgotten how sharply king Achab and the commons of Israel were reproued of Elias for that error He did not say why permit you not those that will to the Lord those that list to Baal but how long halt you betweene two sides or opiniōs If the Lord be God follow him forsaking al other if Baal be God get you after him Since then it is confessed on both partes yours and ours that there can bee no God saue the Lord and hee neuer ment to surrender any piece of his glorie but is so ielous of it that hee wil be serued and onely serued with all our heart mind and strength these things I say being out of question I recken it can not stande with a Princes duetie to reuerse this heauenly decree THOV SHALT VVORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOV SERVE with establishing two religions in one Realme the first authorized by Christ bequeathed in his testament to the Church the next inuented of Antichrist and flatly repugnant to the propheticall and Apostolicall scriptures For if God be trueth they which presume to worship him with lies as in contrarie faith must needes come to passe serue nowe not God but the deuill a lyer himselfe and the father of lyes whose seruice no Christian Prince may so much as tolerate What are saith Vincentius strange Gods but strange errors which the scriptures so cal figuratiuely for that heretiques reuerence their opinions no lesse than the Gentiles their Gods By the which wee learne that the first precept forbidding moe Gods than one barreth all other seruices of the same God saue that which himselfe hath appointed for himselfe It is the vilest basest kinde of idolatrie when men worship their owne fansies obseruing that for a religion which their deceiued and swelling minds imagine Then may not Princes winke at corrupt vitious religion which is an inward ghostly worship of Idoles seeing no man therefore no Prince can serue two masters the seruice that Princes yeelde Christ in respect of their royall vocation consisteth in making lawes for Christ which if they doe likewise for Antichrist it can not be salued but that they serue God and Mammon or rather cease to bee the seruaunts of Christ in that they renounce their master by seruing his aduersarie Nowe what accompt God will exact for his name blasphemed his sonne refused his sacraments prophaned his word exiled and what answere must be made for the ruine of faith haruest of sinne murder of soules consequent alwaies to the publique freedome of heresies I leaue to bee fully considered and wisely preuented by Christian Magistrates who must thinke that silence prouoketh sufferance boldeneth their subiectes to forsake God and his Church euen as in ciuill affaires the slacking of iustice doth maintaine disorder So that in this point your defender betrayeth his vnsetled humor which
Call the booke howe you will so the wordes bee there Phi. There shall you finde them Theo. There we finde them not Phi. What Prints haue you Theo. Prints enow Alopecius at Cullen Heruagius at Basill Langelier at Paris Crinitus at Antuerp Gryphius at Lions Manutius at Rome In all these and diuerse others we finde no such wordis Phi. In deede I confesse the wordes were wanting till Pamelius a Canon of Bruges found them in an old written copie lying in the Abbay of Cambron In his edition printed at Antuerp by Stelsius you shall finde them Theo. And thinke you Philander that all other copies both printed written lacking those words Pamelius did wel to put them to Cyprians text Phi. He laid them down as he found them written in the copie which is kept at Cambron Theo. As though the blinde Abbay of Cambron were of greater credit authoritie than all the Churches and Libraries of Christendom Phi. I say not so Theo. What else do you say when you cite these words for Cyprians which no copie printed nor written hath besides that of Cambron There haue trauelled in the correcting setting forth of Cyprian at sundry times men of your owne religion not a few namely Remboltus Canchius Costerius Erasmus Grauius Manutius Morelius euerie one of these for their seuerall editions searching farre and neere and vsing the best written copies that coulde be gotten or heard of and they all agree that no such wordes are founde in their copies yea Pamelius himselfe hauing as hee confesseth the sight and helpe of eight other written copies from diuerse places founde these wordes in none but in Cambron copie Since then either Cambron copie must be corrupt or an infinite number of other written copies that haue beene viewed by these learned men of your owne side and are yet extant in diuerse Abbayes and Churches obedient to the See of Rome at this houre say your selfe in reason whether we ought to beleeue your Cambron copie before all the copies that haue beene perused and are yet remaining in Europe Phi. That were much but how could this copie be corrupted Theo. What a question that is How could whole books be thrust into the workes of Cyprian Ambrose Hierom Austen others ly forged vnder their names not in one or two but in the most part of the Abbayes and auncient libraries of the West Church Your Monkes and Friers that were so skilfull in committing these manifold forgeries were not to seeke how to corrupt your Cambron copie Phi. It helpeth Pamelius very much that Gratian 400. yeares agoe cited the very same words as out of Cyprian Theo. Gratian might be deceiued by the same or some other false copie as wel as Pamelius of al men Gratian him selfe is most corrupt in alleadging the Fathers but what if Gratian be forged as wel as Cyprian Phi. Nay then al shal be forged that liketh not you Theo. They that ventered on Cyprian others would neuer sticke to frame Gratian to their purpose Phi. This is but your suspicion Theo. Yes I haue some reason to chalenge this in your Canon law for a corruption The very same place of Cyprian is elsewhere alleaged at large by Gratian in his decrees where we find no such words and therefore this or that must needes be forged Againe â—ohannes Seneca who liued seuen skore yeares after Gratian ouer-skippâ—â—h this place without any glosse as not finding it in the decrees extant in his time Phi. You be deceaued there is a glosse vppon this place Theo. I am not deceaued there is none Looke to the lesser volume of your decrees printed by Iohn Petit and Thielman Keruer and you shall see there is none And he that in the bigger volume of your decrees thinking to preuent this obiection set a certaine glosse to the chapter Qui Cathedram shewed himselfe not to be his crafts maister for he grossely mistaking the wordes that follow Episcopi verò which are Gratians thinking them to be Cyprians put the summe of Gratians words as a glosse to Cyprians text which is nothing neare and so betrayeth him a willing but no skilful forgerer Last of all the relatiue that you most esteeme and I most withstand super quam on which chayre the Church is built is contrarie to the plaine wordes of Cyprian not many lines before cited by Gratian and confessed by Pamelius to be fouÌ„d in his Cambron copie super vnum illum edificat Ecclesiam vppon him alone meaning Peter Christ buildeth his Church So that either you must mend your booke and reade super queÌ„ on whom the Church is built or els make Cyprian so forgetful that with in eight lines he contradicteth himselfe refuteth his former saying Phi. May not the Church bee built on him and his successours Theo. If Peter alone were chosen by Christ to be the foundatioÌ„ that is the first stone that should be layed in the building of his Church how can that possibly bee extended to his successors Can you remoue Peter froÌ„ the foundation where Christ laied him not do him wrong Or can you change the foundation and not shake the building of the Church Phi. You tooke the foundation I perceaue for the first beginning Theo. And what call you that which is first layed in the buylding of an house but the foundation Phi. Did Cyprian meane so Theo. Cyprian expresseth his meanyng in this sort Though Christ after his resurrection gaue all his Apostles equall power yet for the declaratioÌ„ of vnitie with his owne voyce and autoritie did he dispose the originall of that vnitie to beginne in one which was Peter The rest of the Apostles were the selfesame that Peter was endewed with like fellowship of honor and power but the first beginning came from oâ—e that is Christ chose Peter alone to be the original or first beginning of his Church Now this is proper to Peters person to be the first Stone that was laied in â—he foundation of the Church and can not be deriued from him to his successour Phi. That priuilege died with Peter vnlesse it remayne in some successour Theo. Not so Peter as well after death as during life keepeth the same place which Christ gaue him in the building of his Church vnlesse you meane to exclude the Saincts cleane froÌ„ the Church of Christ. Phi. They be of the Church triumphant not militant Theo. And those be not two but one Church Ierusalem which is aboue is the mother of vs all Ye be now sayth Paul no more strangers and forreners but Citizens with the Saincts and of the howshold of God For you be come to the Citie of the Liuing God the heauenly Ierusalem and to the Church of the first borne written in heauen and to the spirits of iust men now made perfect Where you see the Saincts in heaueÌ„ be not remoued from the Church of God but we
blood and bowels against them And therefore no maruaile if king Henrie relented somewhat of his former stoutnesse when the king of Fraunce the Earle of Flaunders the king of Scots the yong king his sonne and two other of his children the Duke of Aquitane and Earle of Britaine cōspired against him but it is euident that frō the conquest till the time these lawes and liberties stood in their full force and were publikely receiued and vsed in this Realme Phi. Did the Pope procure him these enemies Theo. What packing there was betweene the French king and the Pope though the stories in this place do not confesse yet we may soone coniecture by the generall drift of your holy Father his blessed adherents in those daies specially by the exāple of king Iohn the sonne of the said king Henrie whom for refusing the disordered election of Stephen Langton to the church of Canterbury Innocentius the 3. so terrified with open inuasion of enemies secret defection of subiects that for safegard of himselfe he was driuen to resigne his kingdome take it againe at the Popes hands in fee farme vnder the yearly rent of a thowsand marks binding himself his heires for euer to do the like homage fealtie to the Bishops of Rome for the crowne of England Which shamefull seruitude of the Prince vtter ruine of the Realme so much displeased the barōs bishops that before toke the Popes part against the king that in plaine contempt of the Popes keies curses they chose them an other king chased king Iohn the Popes farmour from place to place in despite of al y his new Landlord could do or deuise But this I omit because the quarel touched the right title to the crown I medle only with those resistances which the kings of England made for men and matters ecclesiastical Phi. I trust they were not many Theo. For the first hundred yeares next the cōquest it is clear the kings of this Realm would neuer allow their subiects to run to Rome nor suffer appeals to be made to the Pope without their expresse consent now shall you see what they which came after did When king Edw. the 3. reuiued the statute of Premunire made by king Edw. the 1. in the 35. year of his raign against such as sought to Rome to prouide thē of benefices other ecclesiastical promotions wtin this realm enacting the same penalty for those that by processe frō thence impugned any iudgement giuen in the kings courts or brought from Rome any Bul writing or instrumēt to those other like effects Gregory the 11. then Bishop of Rome vnderstanding therof was very earnest against it protesting this was nothing else but to make a schism in the church of Christ to abolish religion to subuert right reason infringe al coūcels speedily dealt with king Edw. to abrogate this law A schisme rising not long after in the church of Rome there was not a Pope that had any care of this til at lēgth Martin the 5. wrote more vehemēt letters to K. H. the 6. But these two bishops of Rome receiued one the same answer which was that an act of Parliament could not be repealed without the autority of a Parliamēt that shortly one should be called to that end which neuer after was performed Yea the king that came after did not only cause that law to be kept put in vre but increased the terror of it with a rigorous punishmēt which is that the party so offending shal forfeit his goods himself be condemned to perpetual imprisonmēt This writer an Italian born a man wedded to the See of Rome confesseth the Popes authority was abated restrained by the lawes of this Realm in the time of king Edward the 3. and so continued euer after that not only the Popes letters were twise refused but the sharpnesse of the punishment increased to strengthen the Statute that pared their power and limited his iurisdiction within this Realme Phi. Perhaps they wtstood him for tēporal matters Theo. The matters were such as your own church accoūteth spiritual to wit electiōs of Bishops gifts of benefices procedings in other causes tending as the cōmplaint of Gregory teacheth you to the diuision of the church extirpation of religion subuersion of al councels which you may not thinke to be temporall matters And this resistance which the Bishop of Rome so much repined at in the daies of king Edward the 3. neuer ceased till king Henry the 8. of famous memory banished the Popes vsurped power cleane out of this Land Phi. So did none of his progenitors before him Theo. It may be they wēt not so far as he did but as Polydor writeth R. Rich. the 2. wēt fairly towards it In a Parliament held the 14. yeare of his raigne the king his princes were of opinion that it would be very good for the realme of England if some part of the Popes dominion were determined with the Sea that is excluded out of this lād for that many wer daily vexed for causes which they thought could not so easily be ended at Rome Wherefore they made a law that no mā euer after should deal with the Bishops of Rome that any person in Englād should by his autority for any cause be excōmunicated that none should execute any such precept if it were sent him If any mā brake this law the pain apointed was he should lose al he had ly in prison during his life And where the pope trauailed by al means to ouerthrow the statute of prouisiō premunire the parliamēt held in the 13. year of Rich. the 2. for the better establishing surer executing of the law made it death for any mā to bring or send Bul or other proces frō Rome to impugn the same These be the words Itē it is ordained established that if any mā bring or send within this realm or the kings power any sūmōs sentēce or excōmunicatiō against any persō of what cōditiō that he be for the cause of making motiō assent or executiō of the said statute of Prouisors or premunire he shal be takē arested put in prison forfeit al his lands tenements goods catle for euer moreouer incur the pain of life mēber So the kingdoms cōmonwelths as wel as councels of al others Frāce England haue from time to time resisted your holy father in the midst of his terror tyrany P. You shew they did it but you do not shew they did wel in it Th. I need not you must shew they did il The prince by gods ordināce beareth the sword not the pope therfore the presumption lieth for the prince against the pope til you proue the cōtrary besids if bishops in a synod may lawfully resist him why may not princes in their parliamēts
but by deiecting and disgracing those that vtterly refused him as lewd light persons And this maketh you so falsly without al truth so boldly without al shame so desperately without all feare to belie both England Scotland as if our disorders in twentie yeres were mo than yours in a thousand and the treacheries treasons murders vilanies done in Scotland were the protestants doings which virulent impudent reproches vttered against two Christian Common weales without any maner or colour of truth shew what liquor boyleth in your hearts and what humour raigneth in your heades Phi. And what salt seasoneth your mouth when you raile at Rome so fast as you do Theo. If I report any thing of Rome which your own fellowes doe not witnes let it go for a slander but what proofe bring you that in Scotlande the professors of the Gospell murdered the kinges father or sought to destroy their Prince when he was yet in his mothers wombe Phi. Sure it is the kings father was horribly murdered amongst them Theo. Can you tel by whom Phi. I can not tel but he lost his life Theo. No doubt of that but who did the deed Phi. It was secretly done in the night season we know not by whom of likelyhood by enemies Theo. It could be no friendship to murder him in his bed neuer heard you A mans enemies shal be they of his owne houshold But since you know not the doer is it not mere malice in you to charge your enemies and not his with it especially those that did hazard their liues to reuenge his death Phi. A faire reuenge to displace their Queene for other mens faults Theo. If y◠Nobles of Scotland did any thing against their Queen which the lawes of that land did not warrant wee defend them not you were best obiect it to them they can answere for themselues Yet are you not ignorāt whom they deepely charge with the death of that Earle but I wil not meddle with other mens matters I returne to this land where you say you haue wrought great alteration of mindes throughout the whole Realme wonderfull increase of courage in all sortes not only to thinke well in heart but openly and boldly to prosesse their faith and religion and refuse all actes contrarie to the same Phi. And this haue we done only by the power of priesthood in spiritual silent and peaceable maner not with riots tumults or warlike concourse we haue done it as the Apostles other holy mē did in the primatiue church by trauels watchings fastings perils at the Portes perils in the Sea perils on the Land perils of open enemies perils of false brethrē feares of the laws feares of hurting our frinds feares for scandalising the weake by contumelies disgraces pouerties prisonmēts fetters dungeons racks deaths And this the omnipotent God because it is his owne worke enterprised by order and authoritie of his chiefe Minister in earth hath prospered exceedingly though it seemed at the beginning a thing hard or impossible you hauing so many yeres the lawes the sword the pulpits and al humane helps for you Theo. Neuer vaunt of your victories vnlesse they were greater Papists that before dissembled are now by your meanes encouraged to professe your religion against a day this was no such conquest The priuie report of a forraine power to be landed in this realme was enough to turne them al. For they which twentie yeres together perished their cōsciences to saue their goods would they now rather hazard their lands life which you threatned hinder that action which they long desired than shew themselues The rest of your conuerts be fearefull women hungrie craftesmen idle prentices seelie wenches and peeuish boyes for the most part voyd of all reason sense desirous of nouelties by nature and soone enticed to any thing al the religion you haue taught them is to name the catholik church as parats to pretend their cōsciēces when they lacke al vnderstāding of god godlines Such in some places for want of good order haue bin of late inueigled by you to mislike those with whō they liue to fansie that they neuer saw which was no masterie cōsidering the mildenes of our discipline the maner of your whispering the rudenes of those simple soules whom you peruerted Phi. We did nothing but in spiritual silent peaceable maner as the Apostles other holy men did in the primatiue Church Theo. We know you can cōmend your selues but a man may soone discerne the fierbrands of Rome from the disciples of Christ. Throckmortōs kalēder was the chiefest end of your running ouer which was to soūd whether your pretēded catholiks wold not back any such force as should be sent to inuade the land This no Apostle nor any other holy man in the primatiue Church did they neuer made religion a cloake for rebellion Phi. God is our witnes we knew no such thing when we were sent ouer Theo. But they which sent you knew what they did Phi. That was counsell to vs we are bound to obey our superiour that sent vs. Theo. To rebell against your Prince and to procure others to doe the like if the Pope commaund you Phi. We say not so Theo. But you must doe so Phi. Can you proue that Theo. We neede no plainer proofe than your silence For how say you will you take her maiestie for lawful and rightful Queene of this Realme notwithstanding the Pope depriue her Phi. You still aske mee that question Theo. Wee must still aske it till you answere it One woorde of your mouth woulde suffice vs and discharge you from all suspition which you would neuer refraine if it were not against you Phi. Remoue the daunger of your lawes and I will quickly tell you what I think Theo. That speach is enough to bewray your affection Our Lawes be not dangerous vnlesse you say the Pope may take the crowne from the Princes head licence her subiects to rebell against her which is the treason we charge you with Phi. Is that so trayterous a position that Popes may depose Princes Theo. That point you should either freely defend or flatly deny By that we shall see what the bent and drift was of your late perswading reconciling so many to the Church of Rome For if this be your doctrine that such as wil be Catholikes must obey the Pope deposing the prince then is it euident that you sow religion but intend to reape treason and make your first entrance with preaching that afterward you may prepare the people to rebelling Phi. This is your false surmise not our meaning Theo. Then answere mee What if the Pope publish a Bull to depriue the Queene which part will you teach the people to followe The Popes or the Queenes Phi. We will tell you that when the Pope doth attempt it Theo. Wel sayde Philander you play sure to
Ecclesiasticall Lawes for 800. yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of Religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour Iudge Phi. FIRST then whereas in the Proclamation we be charged to liue contrary to the lawes of God the Realme c. We answere that if the lawes of God the lawes of the Realme did alwaies consent concur in deed as in this clause other cōmon writings speeches proceeding frō autority they be lightly in words couched togither against vs hardly could wee defende our doctrines and doings frō error vnduetifulnes towards our prince But seeing the lawes of kings and Countries are not euer consonant but may be contrary to Gods commandements we may iustly mislike the one without disloyalty to the other When Emperours saith Augustine be in errour they make lawes for their errour against the truth by which iust men are tried crowned for not doing that which they command because God forbiddeth it Theo. That some princes haue made lawes against God his truth is a case so cleare that it needed no proofe as also that wee must rather obey God than men when their lawes do swarue frō his again on the other side that princes haue made lawes for the true seruice worship of God did rightly iudge it to be a part of their charge that all they which resist those lawes shal be grieuously punished at Gods hands though you craftily dissemble you can not deny S. Austen in this very place which you bring for your defence the very next words wil tel you so much Quando autē Imperatores veritatem tenent pro ipsa veritate contra errorē iubent quod quisquis contempserit ipse sibi iudicium acquirit When Emperors hold the truth they cōmand for truth against error which cōmādement whosoeuer despiseth he purchaseth to himselfe iudgement For he shal be punished by mē haue no part with God for not doing that which truth it selfe by the kings hart commanded him These words you did wel to cut off they were enough to mar your market Phi. Not ours The. Wil you thē cōfesse that princes may commād for truth against error that whosoeuer despiseth their commandement in those cases shal incur iudgement So saith S. Austen in plaine wordes Phi. They may commaund mary the Church must appoint them what they shall commaund Theo. What mean you by the Church Phi. What should I meane by the Church but the church Theo You loue to play with wordes Mean you laimen or priests or both Phi. Euer heard you the church taken for laimen The. When S. Paul sent for the elders of Ephesus willed them to take heed to themselues the whole slocke ouer which the holy Ghost had placed them to rule or feed the Church of God what ment hee by the Church the Priestes to whom he spake or the people Phi. There you see the Priestes are to rule the Church Theo. There also you may see the Church is not to rule the Prince Phi. How doth that follow Theo. The Church is there taken for the people which must not rule but obey the Prince Phi. By the Church in my first answere I ment the Priestes and not the people Theo. Can you shew where the Church in all the Scriptures is takē for the Priests without the people Phi. We call them only Churchmen Theo. We respect not your abuse but the right vse of the word The Church is neuer taken in the new nor old Testament for the Priestes alone but generally for the whole congregation of the faithfull And therefore when you say the Prince must be ruled by the Church you dallie with a doubtfull word and put a faire colour vppon a foule cause but you must distinctly tell vs what persons you mean when you say the Church must appoint what the Prince shal command Phi. I meane Churchmen that is Priestes and Bishops Theo. And what if Churchmen do not agree which is truth as in our dayes they do not may Princes make their choyse what Churchmen they will follow Phi. No the chiefe ruler of the Church and head Bishop on earth must appoint them what faith they shall imbrace Theo. That chiefe ruler of the Church you take to be the Pope Phi. We do Theo. We like you well for your plainesse Then Princes may commaund that which the Church you meane Churchmen or if they agree not the chiefe Churchman which is the Pope shall appoint This is your assertion is it not Phi. It is Theo. What you say Princes must do for the Pope we say princes may do for Christ that is they may plant and establish the Christian faith in their Realmes by their Princely power though the Pope say nay This is our doctrine can you reproue it Phi. Who shall be iudge which is the true Christian faith Theo. You slip now to an other question It is one thing who may command for truth another who shal direct vnto truth We say Princes may command for truth punish the refusers this no Bishop may chalenge but onely the Prince that beareth the sworde This is the first part of our question And touching the second which is the safest way for princes to be guided vnto the truth though we differ about the meanes you reseruing it as a speciall priuilege to the Pope we referring it as a common duetie to the Preacher yet this is euident that Princes must be directed vnto truth the same way that al other Christians are to wit by perswasion and not by coaction For no Prelate nor Pope hath authoritie from Christ to compel priuate men much lesse princes to the profession of faith but onely to teach and instruct them These be the two pointes wee stand on disproue them if you can Phi. This is not al. You would haue Our faith and saluation so to hang on the Princes will and Lawes that there could be imagined no neerer waie to religion than to beleeue what our temporall Lord and Maister list Theo. It is a cunning when you can not confute your aduersaries at least to beelie them that you may seeme to say somewhat against them In deede your fourth chapter is wholie spent in refelling this position which we detest more than you Phi. You begin to shrinke from your former teaching Theo. You will neuer shrink frō your former facing Did euer any man on our side affirm the princes will to be the rule of faith Haue we not earnestly written and openly taught that Religion must not depend vpon the pleasures of men Haue not thowsandes of vs here in England and elsewhere giuen our liues for the witnesse and confession of Gods truth against princes lawes and Popes decrees In Spaine Fraunce Italie
molten Images And they brake downe in his sight the Altars of Baalim and hee caused to cut downe the images that were on them he brake also the groues and the karued molten images and stampt them to powder and strewed it vpō the graues of them that had sacrificed on them Also hee burnt the bones of the Priestes vpon their Altars and purged Iudah and Ierusalem And when hee had destroyed the Altars and cut downe all the idols throughout the lande of Israell he returned to Ierusalem Then the king sent and gathered all the Elders of Iudah and Ierusalem And the king went vp to the house of the Lord and all the men of Iudah and inhabitantes of Ierusalem and the Priestes and the Leuites and all the people from the greatest to the smallest and hee read in their eares all the wordes of the booke of the couenant that was found in the house of the Lord. And the king stood by his Piller and made a couenant before the Lord to walke after the Lord and to keepe his commandementes and his statutes with all his heart with all his soule that hee would accomplish the wordes of the couenant written in that booke And hee caused al that were found in Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand to the couenant So Iosias tooke awaie all the abominations out of all the countries that pertained to the children of Israell and compelled all that were founde in Israell to serue the Lord their God al his dayes they turned not backe from the Lord God of their fathers Moreouer Iosiah kept a Passouer vnto the Lord in Ierusalem and hee appointed the Priestes to their charges and said to the Leuites Serue now the Lord your God and his people Israell prepare your selues by the houses of your fathers according to your courses as Dauid the king of Israell hath written and according to the writing of Salomon his sonne And stand in the sanctuarie according to the diuision of the families of your brethren Kill the Passouer and sanctifie your selues and prepare your brethren that they may doe according to the word of the Lord by the hande of Moses Thus the seruice was prepared and the Priestes stood in their places also the Leuites in their orders according to the kinges commaundement So all the seruice of the Lord was prepared the same day to keepe the Passouer to offer burnt offeringes vpon the Altar of the Lord according to the commaundement of king Iosiah Nehemias though he were no king but a captaine sent frō king Artaxerxes yet he discerned resisted the Prophetes that would haue put him in feare was the first that sealed the couenant between God the people with an oth to walke in the law of God and to obserue all the commaundementes of the Lord. And he displaced Tobiah an Ammonite whom Eliashib the high Priest had receiued and lodged within the court of the house of God and cast out all the vessels of the house of Tobiah and commaunded them to clense the chambers for the vessels of the house of God And reproued the rulers for that the house of God was forsaken the Sabbaoth day broken assembling the Leuites singers setting them their places charging the Leuites to clense themselues and to sanctifie the Sabbaoth daie And when he saw Iewes that maried strange wiues he rebuked them and cursed them and smote certain of them tooke an oth of them by God that they should not mary with strangers And one of the sonnes of Ioiadah the sonne of Eliashib the high Priest maried the daughter of Sanballat the Horonite but Nehemiah chased him awaie and clensed the Priestes and Leuites from all strangers and appointed them their courses euerie one in his office There needeth no great skill to set this togither To remoue idols all abominations out of the land to enter a couenāt with God to walke in his waies to proclaime fastes an d make publike praiers to sanctifie the Temple and celebrate the Passouer to seeke and serue God according to his law bee matters ecclesiasticall not temporall and yet in the same cases the godly kinges of Iudah commaunded and compelled all that were found in Iudah Priest and Prophet man and woman to stand to that order which they tooke for the better accomplishing of those their interprises Acknowledge that right and power in Christian Princes at this day to medle with matters of Religion which the Scriptures report and commend in kinges of religious and famous memorie we presse you no farther If you sticke to graunt so much others will not stick to distrust the soundnesse of your doctrine notwithstanding the smoothnesse of your tongues and loftynesse of your spirites wherewith you thinke to compasse and quaile kingdomes Phi. The kinges of Iudah did that which they did at the motion of the Prophetes and direction of the Priestes Theo. You shun that which you shal not auoide Wee reason not who moued and aduised but who decreed and commaunded these thinges to be done Priestes or Princes The Scriptures in plaine termes saie that Princes DECREED APPOINTED COMMANDED them to be done Contradict the wordes if you dare Take from Asa Iehosaphat Ezechias Iosias the king of Niniueth and others the Princely power which they shewed due praise which they merited in medling with these matters impugne the words whereby God expresseth approueth their doings see whether the consciēces of all good men will not detest abhor your wilfull impietie Phi. The Scripture saith in deede they commaunded appointed decreed these thinges but no doubt they were directed by Prophetes and other spirituall Pastours what they should do Theo. What if they were Doth that hinder their authoritie Princes in ciuill affaires are guided and directed by learned and wise Counsellers doe they therefore not commaund in temporall matters neither Or finde you no difference betweene counselling and commaunding Phi. Againe these Princes were before the comming of Christ when as yet there was no supreme Pastour ouer the whole Church Theo. There was an high Priest ouer the twelue Tribes with surer and better authoritie than your holy father can shewe for him-selfe All Israell by Gods owne mouth were referred to the iudgement of the Priestes and Leuites and not to decline from the thing which they speake The man saith God that will do presumptuouslie not harkning vnto the Priest that standeth before the Lord to minister that man shall die This was their commission yet this notwithstanding the kings of Iudah commaunded both Prist and people for matters of religion And so did the Christian Emperours after the comming of Christ for eight hundred yeares that wee shewe commaund both Bishoppes and others yea the Bishoppe of Rome no lesse than others in causes as well Ecclesiasticall as Temporall The particulars I noted before The Lawes were publike
father and his Cardinals were eighteene yeres prouoking working the Princes States adherent to them to spill christian blood to make hauocke of al places persons that were not â—â—â—dient to the Bishop of Rome yet you count it some great absurditie for vs to reiect this Councell as not generall Phi. You acknowledge no subiection to Councels or Tribunals abroad all other Bishops Patriarkes Apostles Christ all because they were be forrainers not hauing iurisdiction or sufficieÌ„t authoritie to define against English Sectaries or Errors And this when a Realme or Prince is in error taketh away all meanes of reducing theÌ„ to the truth againe Theo. To Christ his Apostles we acknowledge more subiection than you doe We honor adore him as the true son of God equall with his father in authority maiesty We make him no forrainer to this Realm as you do but professe him to be the only master redeemer ruler of his church as wel in this as in all other Nations To whom Princes Preachers are but seruaÌ„ts the preachers to propose the Princes to execute his will commandements whom all that wil be saued must beleeue obey aboue against all Councels Tribunals be they regall or papall if they dissent from his word The preachings writings of the Apostles we receiue with greater reuereÌ„ce exacter obedience than you do We giue no man leaue to dispence against theÌ„ which your law witnesseth of the Pope Papa coÌ„tra ApostoluÌ„ dispensat The Pope dispeÌ„seth against the Apostle We neuer said as Pigghius saith The Apostles wrote certaine things not that their writinges should bee aboue our faith and religion but rather vnder Wee confesse The Apostles were men allowed of God to whom the Gospel should be committed therefore we receiue the word from theÌ„ not as the word of man but as it is in deed the word of God assuring our selues it is the power of God to saue all that beleeue detesting your erronious and heynous presumptions that take vppon you to adde alter diminish and dispence with that which the spirite of Christ spake as well by the pennes as mouthes of the Apostles To Councels such as the Church of Christ was wont by the helpe of her religious Princes to call we owe communion and brotherly concord so long as they make no breach in faith nor in christian charitie subiection and seruitude wee owe them none the blessed Angels professe themselues to bee fellowe seruantes with the Sainctes on earth what are you then that with your Tribunals and iurisdictions woulde bee Lordes and Rulers ouer Christes inheritance Peter saith Cyprian whom the Lord made first choice of on whom he built his church when Paul after stroue with him for Circumcision did not take vpon him nor chalenge any thing insolentlie or arrogantly nor aduaunce him-selfe as Primate and one to whom the nouices and puinees shoulde bee subiect And as it were in open defiance of your Tribunals and iurisdictions which Stephen the Bishoppe of Rome began then to exercise he directeth the Bishops assembled in a Councell at Carthage on this wise It resteth that of this matter wee speake euerie one of vs what we thinke iudging no man nor remouing any man from the communion though he be not of our minde For none of vs maketh himselfe Bishop of Bishops or by terrour like a tyrant forceth his collegues to yeeld him obedience whether they will or no considering euerie Bishop by reason of his Episcopal power and freedom hath the rule of his owne iudgement as one that can not bee iudged of an other nor hee him-selfe iudge an other but let vs al expect the tribunal or iudgement of our Lord Iesus Christ which only solely hath power to set vs in the gouernment of his Church and to iudge of our actes And because you be so earnest with vs for subiection to Tribunals abroade to bee plaine with you it is boyes plaie before you name them or proue that wee owe them any subiection to skore it vppe as an absurditie that wee acknowledge none vnto them and yet least you shoulde thinke vs the first that refused Tribunals abroade you shall see that ancient and worthy fathers haue done the like before vs. What Tribunals abroade did Cyprian and the 80. Bishoppes at Carthage with him acknowledge when hee saide as you hearde Christus vnus solus habet potestatem de actu nostro iudicandi Christ only and none else hath authoritie to iudge of our act And agaiâ—e Episcopus ab alâ—o iudicari non potest cum non ipse nec alterum iudicare A Bishop may not be iudged of others nor iudge others Expectemus vniuersi iudicium Christi Let vs all both abroad and at home expect the iudgement of Christ. What Tribunals abroade did Polycrates and the Bishops of Asia with him acknowledge when hee replied to the Bishoppe of Rome threatning to excommunicate him and the rest Non turbaborijs quae terrendi gratia obijciuntur I passe not for these threats that are offered to terrifie me What Tribunals abroad did S. Aug. the 216. African Bishops acknowledge when they decreed that none Appealing ouer the Sea to Tribunals abroad should be receiued to the communion within Africa And when they repelled the Bishop of Rome laboring to place his Legates a latere within their Prouince willed him nâ—t to bring Fumosum seculi Typhum That smoky pride of the world into the Church of Christ What Tribunals abroad did the Bishop of the Britons acknowledge when they proued to August the Moncke that was sent from Rome that they ought him no subiection Nay what Tribunal abroad did Greg. the Bishop of Rome chalenge when he wrote thus to Eulogius Bishop of Alexandria Vestra beatitudo mihi loquitur diceÌ„s sicut iussistis quod verbuÌ„ iussionis peto à meo auditu remouete quia scio quis sum qui estis Loco enim mihi fratres estis moribus patres NoÌ„ ergo iussi sed quae vtilia visa sunt iudicare curauâ— Your blessednes in your letters saith to me as you coÌ„maÌ„ded which word of coÌ„maÌ„ding I beseech you remoue froÌ„ mine eares because I know who I am what you are In calling you are brethreÌ„ to me in behauior fathers I did not theÌ„ coÌ„mand you but aduertise you what semed best to me The same Greg. teacheth you what it is for any one man to require vniuersall subiection of the whole church as your holie father now doth If Paul saith he would not haue the meÌ„bers of the Lords body to be subiect to any heads but to Christ no not to the Apostles themselues what wilt thou answere to Christ the head of the vniuersall church in the last daie of iudgement which goest about to haue all his members in subiection to thee by the
their conuersion subuert the worship of idols ouerthrow their tēples edifie the maners of your subiects by exhorting threatning faire intreating correcting shewing examples of wel doing that you may find him a rewarder in heauen whose name knowlege you haue dilated in earth For so Constantine a most religious Emperor reuoking the Romane Empire from the peruerse seruice of idols subdued the same with himself to the almighty God our Lord Iesus Christ turned him self together with the people vnder him to God with al his heart And nowe let your excellency labor to poure the knowledge of one God the father the son the holy Ghost into the Princes people that are subiect to you that he may make you partaker of his kingdom whose faith you cause to be receiued and obserued in your kingdom This the kings of England before since the cōquest were taught to be their duty sworn to execute faithfully as the lawes of king Edward the good make proofe which William the Conquerer receiued confirmed where the office charge of a king are thus expressed A king because he is the Lieutenant of the most high king was appointed to this end that he should regard gouerne the earthly kingdom and the people of God and aboue all thinges his holie Church and defend her from wronges and roote out male factors from her yea scatter and destroy them Which except he do he can not iustly be called a king A king ought to feare God and aboue all thinges to loue him and to establish his commaundementes throughout his kingdom He ought also to keepe nourish maintaine and gouerne the holie Church of his kingdome with all integritie and libertie according to the constitutions of his fathers and predecessours and to defende it against enemies so as God may be honoured aboue all and euer had in minde He ought to establish good lawes and approued customes and abolish euill lawes and customes and remoue them all out of his Realme Hee ought to doe right iudgement in his kingdom and execute iustice by the counsell of his Nobles All these thinges ought the king to sweare in his owne person before he be crowned The verie Heathen perceiued confessed this to be true Aristotle a prophane Philosopher writing of the first institution of kings sheweth how many things they were by office to medle with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 A king in olde time was the leader in warres pronouncer in iudgements and ouerseer of religion And againe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Diuine things were committed to Princes as part of their charge Al Monarchies kingdomes and common-wealthes Assyrians Persians Medes Graecians Romanes Iewes Gentiles Pagans Christians haue euer kept this for a generall rule that religion shoulde bee setled and establissed by publike lawes and maintained by the Magistrates sword So that if you take the defence of pietie the reward of honestie and balance of equitie from the Princes charge you run headlong against God and man to feede your owne appetites and see not that which reason and nature taught the heathen to confesse that as euery priuate man is bound to seeke and serue God aboue all thinges so euerie societie of men be it familie citie or countrie is likewise bound to haue a speciall and principall care of his seruice which can not be done vnlesse it be planted preserued by publike lawes of these lawes as of all other amongst men onely Magistrates be the makers keepers and reuengers Phi. Princes be charged after a sort with godlines and honestie Theo Your delaies do not answere our proofes We shew the chiefest part of their charge to be godlines and honestie which be thinges spiritual not temporall Phi. What if that be granted Theo. If their duty stretch so far their authoritie must stretch as far Their charge ceaseth where their power endeth God neuer requireth princes to do that which he permitteth thē not to do but rather his commanding them to care for those thinges is a full authorizing of them to medle with those thinges If then godlines and honestie bee the chiefest part of their charge ergo they be likewise the chiefest end of their power and consequently Princes beare the sword chiefly for spiritual thinges and causes not as you defend onely for temporall Phi. You put all thinges temporall spirituall and ecclesiasticall into their handes Theo. In all these thinges and other things whatsoeuer we say they beare the sword and why should that displease you God hath giuen them the sworde euen in those thinges which himselfe commaundeth and prescribeth as namely faith and good manners which be the chiefe contentes of his lawe and respectes of our life and do you think it much that they beare the sword in those indifferent matters which Bishops haue agreed on for seemelinesse and good order to be kept in the church no way comparable to those thinges which God hath put them in trust with and made them defenders and auengers of And if Princes shall not beare the sworde in thinges and causes ecclesiasticall you must tell vs who shall The Priest or the Prince of force must do it and since by Gods law the Priest may not medle with the sword the consequēt is ineuitable that Princes alone are Gods ministers bearing the sword to reward and reuenge good and euill in all thinges and causes bee they temporal spirituall or ecclesiasticall vnlesse you thinke that disorders and abuses ecclesiasticall should be freely permitted and neither preuented nor punished by publike authoritie which in these froward ages would breede a plain contempt of all ecclesiasticall order and discipline and hasten the subuersion of those kingdomes and common-wealthes where such confusion is suffered Phi. The Rites and Ceremonies of the Church are not in the Princes power Theo. To deuise new Rites and Ceremonies for the Church is not the Princes vocation but to receiue and allow such as the Scriptures and Canons commend and such as the Bishops and Pastours of the place shall aduise not infringing the Scriptures or Canons And so for all other ecclesiasticall thinges and causes Princes be neither the deuisers nor directors of them but the confirmers and establishers of that which is good and displacers and reuengers of that which is euill which power we say they haue in all thinges causes be they spirituall ecclesiasticall or temporall Phi. And what for excommunications and absolutions be they in the Princes power also Theo. The abuse of excommunication in the Priest contempt of it in the people Princes may punish excommunicate they may not for so much as the keies are no part of their charge But these particulars if we seuerally discusse we shall neuer end the generall rules on which our assertion is grounded may be sooner proposed and resolued First to whom hath God committed the sword to the Priest or the Prince Phi. To whom say you
he should find him readie Had you beene there you would not onely haue set the people against the Prince but encouraged the subiect to pul the yong boy by the eares and to teach him better manner against an other time to meddle with Bishoppes and it grieueth you to see Ambrose so faint hearted as you take it that when so fit opportunitie serued him and the rest they would giue no president to rebel against Princes which is the thing you seeke to proue and long to doe Phi. Not the people only which may doe things of headynes without counsel or consultation but the bishops of Countries so persecuted by heretical Princes haue iustly required helpe of other Christian kings Theo. If the multitude of Christians in the primatiue Church for all their rashnes and headynes were afraid in respect of the Apostles doctrine to rebell against Powers whom shall you perswade that their religious and godly Pastours were firebrands of sedition If they taught others to obey with what conscience could they themselues resist Or rather with what face do you slaunder them with that they neuer did Phi. Holy Athanasius who knewe his duetie to his soueraigne wel enough in what case he might resist him asked ayde against Constantius the Arrian the first heretical Emperour whom Pope Felix declared to be an heretike of his owne brother Constance Catholike Emperour of the West For feare of whose armes the said Arrian restored Athanasius and other Catholike Bishops to their Churches and honours againe though after this Catholike Emperours death the other more furiously persecuted Athanasius than before Theo. Hee that neuer sounded the fidelitie and honestie of Iesuites afore this time may take hence his light howe to trust them in other cases Did Athanasius aske ayde of armes against Constantius the Arrian Phi. For feare of armes the saide Arrian restored Athanasius and other Catholike Bishoppes to their Churches and honours againe Theo. But did Athanasius moue Constans so to doe Phi. Hee asked ayde of Constans against his brother Constantius Theo. But did hee aske that ayde to bee restored by armes For of that ayde we now dispute that aide must you meane if you wil say ought to the purpose Phi. He accepted it and therfore it is likely he requested it Theo. You would proue by this example that Athanasius who knew his dutie to his soueraigne well enough and in what case he might resist him not only vsed but asked forciâ—le ayde against Constantius of his owne brother Phi. So he did Theo. Be you well in your wittes to auouch it with such confidence Phi. Why should wee not Theo. Why should you not Athanasius himselfe when that very point was obiected to him not only abiured it as false but detested it vnto Constantius as a wicked and vngodly part for himselfe to haue stirred brother against brother What extreme boldnes was it then for you to fasten that on him which hee defieth and forsweareth Phi. Where doth he so Theo. Where you might soone haue found it but that you thought to haue brought the matter froÌ„ words to blowes before this tyme. It was layd in his dish by Constantius amongst other things after the death of Constans that he prouoked and incited his brother against him and that hee resisted the Princes precepts To this Athanasius answereth in his Apologie to Constantius I am not mad I am not besides my selfe O Emperour that thou shouldest suspect I had euer any such thought And that made mee say nothing to it when others questioned with me about it lest whiles I laboured to cleare my selfe some perhaps would make a doubt of it But to your highnesse I answere with a loude and plaine voyce and with my hand held out as I learned of the Apostle I cal God to witnes against my soule as it is written in the book of kings I sweare the Lord can beare me record and his annointed your brother suffer me I beseech you so to say I neuer made mention of you for any euill before your brother of blessed memorie I meane that religions Emperour Constans neither did I euer stirre him vp against you as these Arrians do slaunder me but contrariwise whensoeuer I had accesse vnto him he himselfe recounted your gratious inclination and God knoweth what mention I made of your godly disposition Suffer me and pardon me most curteous Prince That seruant of God Constans your brother was not so open nor so lent his eares to any man neither was I in such credite with him that I durst speake a woorde of any such matter or derogate from one brother before an other or finde fault with a Prince in the hearing of a Prince I am not so mad neither haue I forgotten the voyce of God which sayth Curse not the king in thine heart nor backbite the mightie in the secretes of thy chamber For the birdes of the aire shall tell it and the fowles which flie shall betraie thee If the thinges which be spoken in secrete touching you Princes can not bee hid what likelyhoode that I in the presence of a Prince and so many standing by would say any thing of you otherwise than well And shewing how ofteÌ„ he spake with the Emperor CoÌ„stans in whose preseÌ„ce to what effect which were to loÌ„g to repeat he concludeth I beseech your highnes for I know well the force of your memorie call to mind my behauiour when it pleased you to admit me to your presence first at Vimimachum then at Caesarea and thirdly at Antioch whether I did so much as offer an euil word of Eusebius my bitter enimie or gaue a displeasaunt speach of any my pursuers If then I refrained my tongue when I was to plead against them in mine own defence what madnes had that beene for me to traduce an Emperor before an Emperour and to stirre vp one brother against an other What thinke you Doth not Athanasius reiect that which you would father on him as a manifest vntrueth nay as a villanous and frantike attempt to set brethren together by the eares and to stirre warres betweene Princes Why then doe you burthen a godly Bishop with that which he neuer thought and which he was farthest from Why make you Athanasius your rest for rebellion against Princes whereas hee thought it vnlawfull in hart to curse a cruel hereticall Prince How farre he did said he was bound to obay Constantius his owne wordes wil testifie and therefore no reason we beleeue your vaunting and facing that he procured warre against Constantius when he himselfe affirmeth the contrarie They lay to my charge saith he to the same Prince that I obayed not your precepts by the which it was enioyned me that I should depart from Alexandria I neuer resisted the commandements of your highnesse no no God forbid I should I am not he that will withstand the Gouernour of any Citie
it were done by forsaking threatning compelling or inuading him the Storie doeth not expresse neither may you suppose what you list without any proofe Had they assaulted him with armes it had beene as easie to haue slaine him there as to haue driuen him thence but no doubt Peter their Bishoppe kept them from that which Moses a conuert of the Saracenes not long before bitterly reprooued in Lucius Phi. You meane Moses the Moncke that Mauia the Queene of the Saracens required to haue for the Bishopppe of her Nation whose fayth the Bishoppe of Rome confirmed in the same letters with Peters election Theo. I doe Phil. What of him Theo. When hee was brought to Lucius to bee made Bishoppe hee sayde I thinke my selfe vnworthie of this function but if it bee profitable for my Countrie that I take it Lucius shall neuer lay handes on mee to make mee Bishoppe for his right hand is embrued with blood Lucius answering that he should not raile but first learne what religion he taught I aske not a reason sayth Moses of thy religion thy doings against thy brethren conuince what religion thou hast A christian doeth not strike doeth not slaunder doeth not fight The seruant of God may not fight But thy woorkes openly shewe themselues by those whome thou hast banished whom thou hast cast to bee deuoured of beasts and consumed with fire If Moses thus abhorred Lucius for fighting and striking what would hee haue sayd to Peter for bearing armes and rebelling if he had beene so good a warrier as you make him Phi. So did Atticus Bishop of Constantinople craue ayde of Theodosius the yonger against the king of the Persians that persecuted his Catholike subiects and was thereby forcibly depriued and his innocent subiects deliuered Theo. The christians of Persia being barbarously persecuted by Bararanes an Infidel and put as Theodorete sheweth to straunge and vnusuall torments fled their Countrie and sauing themselues within the Romane Dominion besought the Christian Emperour they might bee harboured within his land and not bee yeelded vnto the furie of their king The Persian presently sent Legates to haue them backe that were departed his Realme Atticus the Bishoppe of Constantinople opened their cause to the Emperour and laboured what he could for them Theodosius the Emperour woulde not deliuer them as being suppliants to him and no offendours against their king but only that they professed the Christian Religion and hauing besides iust cause to make warre vpon the Persians for that they spoiled his merchants and woulde not restore his Goldminers which they hired of him bid open battell to them and caused the king to be glad with peace and to cease his persecution against the Christians Here is nothing for your purpose vnlesse you say that subiects may rebel for Religion because straungers may bee harboured for religion which were a mad kind of conclusion The Persians asked not armes against their King though a Tyrant but refuge for themselues neither did they assault their Prince on the one side when the Romanes inuaded on the other but with praier expected what end God would giue Atticus was no subiect to the king of Persia and therefore whatsoeuer hee did against a straunger and an enemie is no president for subiects to do the like to their Princes and yet all that he did was this Atticus Episcopus supplicantes cupidé suscepit totus in eo erat vt pro viribus ipsis succurreret Imperatori Theodosio quae gererentur significauit Atticus the Bishoppe embraced their request for themselues with great good will and laboured what hee could to helpe them and signified their state to Theodosius the Emperour Theodosius was a lawfull magistrate and had other and those iust causes to warre vpon the Persian and in that hee refused to deliuer the profugient and innocent Christians to the slaughter hee had the Lawe of nature and nations for his defence And lastly the king of Persia was neither depriued of his kingdome as you falsely report nor his subiects discharged frō their obedience but a peace concluded wherin the King was contended to cease from pursuing the Christians All this you shall find not in the second booke as you quote but in the seuenth where Socrates describeth the occasion and conclusion of this Persian warre From him Nicephorus taketh his light and more than Socrates said before he neither doth nor could affirme Phi. So did holy Pope Leo the first perswade the Emperour called Leo also to take armes against the Tyraunt of Alexandria for the deliuerie of the oppressed Catholiques from him and the heretiques Eutichians who then threw downe Churches and Monasteries and did other great sacrileges Whose wordes for examples sake I will set downe O Emperour saith Sainct Leo if it be laudable for thee to inuade the heathens how much more glorious shall it bee to deliuer the Church of Alexandria from the heauie yoke of outragious heretiques by the calamitie of which Church all the Christians in the world are iniuried Theo. Leo was so holy that hee neuer taught any man to beare armes against his Prince and yet it did nothing hurt his holynes to pray the Emperour to pursue with due punishment the wicked vprore that was made in Alexandria by Timotheus an heretike that placing himselfe in the Bishoprike and killing Proterius the true Bishoppe at the font in the Church caused the carkas by some of his faction to bee drawen along the streetes in a rope and to bee so cutte and mangled that the very intrayles drayled vpon the stones and the rest of the bodie to bee burnt and the ashes scattered into the ayre That villanous and diuelish fact Leo the Bishoppe of Rome beseecheth Leo the Emperour with all seueritie to reuenge assuring him that it is as glorious a conquest before Christ to punish such outragious heretikes as to represse miscreantes and Infidels But howe this shoulde serue your turnes wee can not imagine Will you reason thus Leo the Bishoppe of Rome perswaded the Emperour to chastise some of his subiects that were heretikes and murderers Ergo the people may assault their Prince with armes Take heede left Timotheus heresie and furie reuiue in you again if you fal to liking such consequents Phi. In briefe so did S. Gregorie the great moue Genadius the Exarch to make warres specially against heretikes as a very glorious thing Theo. You speake truer than you are ware of In deede Gregorie the great wrate to Genadius the Exarch in the selfe same sense that Leo before did to Leo the Emperour which is that Magistrates ought to resist and punish the aduersaries of Christes Church as well as the troublers and disturbers of the Common-wealth neither is there any difference in their writings or meanings saue that Leo wrate to the Prince himselfe and Gregorie to his Deputie And since you be come
to Gregorie it is high tyme you begin to awake and remember your selfe that for sixe hundreth yeeres you haue not nor can not shew vs any one example where heretical Prince was deposed or subiect allowed to beare armes against his Soueraigne Which is a sufficient conuiction that Pagans and heretikes were all this while honoured obeyed and endured by the Church of Christ if they were Princes Or if that collection bee not good heare Saint Augustines confession of him that was the very worst of them I meane Iulian the Apostata and learne that they which suffered and obeyed him woulde neuer resist nor rebell against any Iulianus extitit infidelis Imperator nonne extitit Apostata iniquus Idolatra Milites Christiani seruierunt Imperatori infidels Vbi veniebatur ad causam Christi non agnoscebant nisi illum qui in caelo erat Quando volebat vt idola colerent vt thurificarent praeponebant illi Deum Quando autem dicebat producite aciem ite contra illam gentem statim obtemperabant Distinguebant Dominum aeternum a Domino temporali tamen subditi erant propter Dominum aeternum etiam Domino temporali Iulian was an vnbeleeuing Emperour was hee not an Apostata an oppressour and an Idolater Christian souldiers serued that vnbeleeuing Emperor When they came to the cause of Christ they would acknowledge no Lord but him that is heauen When hee woulde haue them to worshippe Idoles and to sacrifice they preferred God before their Prince But when he said goe foorth to fight inuade such a nation they presently obeyed They distinguished their eternall Lorde from their temporall and yet were they subiect euen vnto their temporal Lorde for his sake that was their eternall Lord and master The like testimonie your Law bringeth out of S. Ambrose Iulian the Emperour though hee were an Idolater had yet vnder him Christian souldiers to whom when hee sayd goe fight for the defence of the common-wealth they did obey him but when hee sayde goe fight against the Christians then they regarded the Emperour in heauen before him Phi. The holy Bishoppes might most lawfully and so sometymes they did excommunicate the Arrian Emperours and haue warranted their Catholike subiects to defend themselues by armes against them But they alwayes did not so because they had no meanes by reason of the greater forces of the persecutours As there no question but the Emperours Constantius Valens Iulian and others might haue beene by the Bishoppes excommunicated and deposed and all their people released from their obedience if the Church or Catholiques had had competent forces to haue resisted Theo. Uayne shiftes you haue brought vs many but none vayner than that which here you broche You vndertooke to shewe vs auncient examples that Princes were iudicially deposed by Priestes and impugned with armes by their owne subiectes You bee nowe come to the vttermost pitch of Antiquitie and finding your selfe not able to bee as good as your worde you tell vs that though Bishoppes did it not yet they might most lawfully haue warranted their Catholike subiectes to defend themselues by armes against the Arrian Emperours But sir you were to bring vs their examples what they did not your vants what they might haue done The point we began with was what Bishops in this case might doe You to shew what they might doe promised vs the particulars of auncient ages what they had doone and hauing perused six hundered yeeres after Christ and perceauing no such deede doone you come with a returne at the last that though they did it not yet they might haue doone it whereas we rather collect they might not doe it because they did it not For had it beene most lawful as you say we can proue it most needfull they should haue doone it The blaspheming of Christ the murdering of his saincts the seducing of many thousand soules which things were not only committed by their meanes but also maintained by their power that were suffered to beare and vse the sword for the strengthning and establishing of their error were causes sufficient to moue the Bishops to doe what they lawfully might to preuent these mischifes and saue the Bishops you cannot from the blemish of permitting and increasing the pestilent heresies of Arius and others if they did not what they might in dewtie to withstand and depose those Princes that were the chiefe Patrones of those impieties Phi. There is no question but the Emperours Constantius Valens Iulian and others might haue beene deposed by the Bishops and all their people released from their obedience if the Church or Catholiques had had competent forces to haue resisted Theo. You falsely and wickedly slaunder the Martyrs of Christs church when you auouch they wanted not will but power to resist their Princes The Christians had forces sufficient and many fit opportunities offered them to set those hereticall Emperours besides their Seates and woulde not Constans the West Emperour was of power sufficient to haue repressed Constantius his brother for feare of whom Athanasius was restored to his Bishoprike by Constantius and with whom if the Catholikes of the East would haue but ioyned themselues it had beene most easie for them to haue taken the Scepter from Constantius When Constans was slaine Magnentius the Tyrant surprised all Italie subdued Affrica and Lybia and had Fraunce in subiection and the souldiers of Illyricum erected Betranion against Constantius in which distresse if the Christians would but haue forsaken Constantius and not ventered their liues for him he must haue beene depriued of the West Empire if not of the East also Athanasius being charged that he with others secretly by letters incited this Magnentius to take armes against the Emperour answered as I shewed you before Cast not this suspition O Emperour vpon the whole Church as though such things were written or thought on by Christian men and specially by Bishopes The like occasion was offered the Christians to displace Constantius when Gallus who was both Cesar and next to the Crowne beganne to aduance himselfe to the Empire but they tooke it as you see by Athanasius wordes to be no Christian mans part to thinke on bearing armes against their Emperour though an hereticke Of the Christian souldiers vnder Iulian you hearde S. Augustine say they serued their temporall Lorde though an Idolater and an Apostata not for lacke of force to resist but for respect of their euerlasting Lorde in heauen Otherwise the Christian souldiers had Iulian in his voyage against the Persians farre from home and from helpe and might haue done with him what they woulde and yet they chose rather to spend their liues for him than to lift vp their handes against him and the Christian worlde in his absence stirred not against him but with patience endured his oppression and with silence expected his returne Phi. They were heathen souldiers that were with Iulian in the Persian warres Theo.
with Imperante Domino pijssimo Augusto Leone à Deo coronato magno Imperatore imperij eiuâ— anno septimo In the 7. yeare of the raigne of the great Prince crowned by God Leo the Emperor our most gracious Lord. Gregorie the thirde writeth Imperante Domino pijssimo Augusto Leone Imperij eius anno vicesimo tertio In the 23. yeare of the raigne of our most religious Lord Leo the Emperor Both which letters Marianus Scotus remembreth with their dates in his accompt of times and yeares If Leo the last yeare of his life were called religious Lorde and Emperour by the Bishop of Rome how can it be true that either of the Gregories forsooke his obedience and depriued him of all his dominions in Italie long before his death Who stirred this rebellion against Leo the thirde I will not dispute The Graecians had good cause to suspect the Bishop of Rome and to thinke him to bee the verie author and contriuer of it as Zonaras doeth but that which hee did was closely doone vnder hand by conspiring priuily with other places and inciting the people by secret meanes to reuolt from the Empire As for anie open and apparant act hee was so farre from taking vppon him to depriue the Emperour by iudiciall sentence in his Consistorie that hee durst not bee knowen in this tumult to stande with the people or fauour their doinges by any publike aide or consent but seemed rather to staie them by his persuasion and to labour against that defection of theirs in the sight of others as your owne Stories doe confesse And therefore you may proue if you will by this example a rebellion of the Romanes against their Prince which the Bishoppe of Rome neither did nor durst auouch but deposition of Princes by the Popes censures which is the point that we demaunde you can not proue by this or any other president in the West partes for a thowsande yeares after Christ. Phi. You can not deny but that for defect in religion and of the churches defence the Greeke Emperors were discharged and the Empire translated to the Germanes by Pope Leo the thirde Theoph. That the Empire was deuided I doe not denie but that it was doone for defect in religion or that the Pope alone of his absolute authoritie did it both these I denie and therein though certaine Monkes and Friers of yours do slubber vppe the matter and attibute the doing thereof to the Popes sole and soueraigne power yet the truer and exacter writers of your owne side do witnesse the contrary And that first it was not doone for any defect in Religion the time when it was doone will declare The seconde Councell of Nice was celebrated in the eight yeare of Constantine and Irene as the first session of the Councell doth specifie Where not only the Legates of Adrian Bishoppe of Rome say of them-selues Nos postquam ab Apostolico Patre nostro Adriano litteras accepissemus eas ad pios nostros Imperatores pertulimus The letters which wee brought from our Apostolike Father Adrian wee deliuered to the handes of our religious Emperours Constantine and Irene But Adrian him-selfe writing to them by name saith Being lately by your godly coÌ„mandemeÌ„t aduertised of your pleasure we offred praiers thanks to almightie God for your Empire And growing to an end Haec sunt serenissimi pijssimi Imperatores These are the things most gratious godly Emperors which we haue gathered out of the Scriptures c. the which by our Apostolike relation we present to the good affection of your Maiesties with all humilitie and sinceritie beseeching your clemencie and as it were kneeling in your presence and prostrate before your feete I with my brethren make supplication request to you in the sight of God that keeping the tradition of this your most holy blessed church you wil detest the wicked rage of heretikes that you may imbrace this catholike and Apostolike church of Rome which is yours without dissolution At this Synode Constantine and Irene were acknowledged by Adrian and his Legates for Emperours of Rome and after this Synode til the diuision of the Empire there was no change of religion in Greece but the affayres of the church stoode in the same state in which they were at the time of this Synode And sure it is that Irene was wholy addicted to images for by her helpe this councel was kept images restored and yet in her raigne when she alone had the rule of all the Empire was diuided So that religion can not be pretended for the translation of the Romane Empire from the Greekes to the Germanes Againe the maine consent of your Stories is that the Senate and people of Rome did concur with the Bishop in this action their decree that he should and request that he would crowne Charles for their Emperour are expressely remeÌ„bred in the most of your writers otherwise deriuing al the power they can in these and such like cases to the Bishop of Rome Platina and Blondus saie it was done Populi Romani scito ac precibus by the decree and request of the people of Rome Nauclerus saith it was done populi Romani consensu with the consent of the people of Rome Sabellicus saith Scito rogatuque populi Romani The Pope did it by the determination and petition of the people of Rome Auentinus sayth Pontifex Senatus populusque Romanus imperâ—um transferre iure suo in Germanos Carolumque tacito Senatus consulto plebiscitoque decernunt The Bishop Senate and people of Rome conclude by a decree of the Senate and people secrete among them-selues to remoue the Romane Empire and in their owne right to deriue it vnto the Germanes and vnto Charles Sigebert shewing the time and adding the cause sayth Romani qui ab Imperatore Constantinopolitano iam diu animo disciuerant nunc accepta occasionis opportunitate quia milier excaecato Imperatore Constantino filio suo eis imperabat vno omnium consensu Carolo Regi Imperatorias laudes acclamant eumque per manus Leonis Papae coronant Caesarem Augustum appellant The Romanes which in heart were long before fallen from the Emperour of Constantinople taking this occasion and opportunitie that a woman which had pulled out the eyes of her owne sonne the Emperor had gotten the Dominion ouer theÌ„ with one generall consent proclaime king Charles for their Emperour and crowne him by the handes of Pope Leo and salute him as Caesar and Emperour of Rome Frisingensis saith of her Digna cuius diebus orbis imperium quod in manus faeminae non dignè deuenerat ad Francos transferretur She well deserued that in her dayes the Empire of the world which came into the handes of a woman by so vile meanes shoulde be translated to the Germanes Aeneas Syluius giueth an other cause that moued them no lesse than this Demum verò negligentibus Romam Graecis
conspiracies sought to shake this Emperour out of his cloathes but God so assisted him that he razed and destroyed the cities that rebelled and turned the Duke that betrayed him out of his Dukedome and electorship and made the Pope glad to leaue his Palace and flie to Venice in a cookes attire and had not indulgence of nature wonne him to accept the peace which the Pope offered and his captiue sonne intreated hee was like enough to haue taught the Bishoppe of Rome a newe lesson but the time was then for Antichrist to be exalted and therefore it pleased the wisedome of God to suffer this worthy Prince to be weariâ—d and content to imbrace peace for the safety of his sonne that was prisoner at Venice Where if it be true that is written of Pope Alexander euen by your owne fellowes he shewed himselfe in his right colours For willing the Emperour before all the people to lie flat on the ground he set his foote on the princes necke and said it is written thou shalt walke vpon the aspe and Basiliske tread the Lion and Dragon vnder thy feete And the prince answereth I do it not to thee but to Peter whose successor thou art the pope replied it must be done to me as wel as to Peter The Pope is now where he would be not on meane mens shoulders but on Princes necks and that aduancement hath he gotten not by religion or vertue but by breaking othes bearing armes shedding blood and such like turkish and diuelish stirres Phi. Would you not he should defend himselfe Theo. If hee be Peters successour hee must feede not fight teach obedience not authorize rebellion praie for his enimies not persue them with force and furie Else he succeedeth Romulus in murdering not Peter in feeding Phi. What if wordes will not serue shall the chiefest Pastour of our soules see the keyes and the church contemned and oppressed and not draw the sword Theo. That is in effect if men will not beleeue your Preaching may you not take boytels and knock them on their heades Nay the case goeth not so well with you You wage warres with earthly states if they dislike your pride or auert your gaine you pretende Sainct Peter and the Church when you meane nothing but your temporall commodities and superfluities it suffiseth you not to bee free from Princes Lawes swords or to be their equalles you striue with them to be their superiours to displace theÌ„ if they displease you These be the quarels which your holy father and his adherentes haue professed persued for the space of fiue hundreth yeares with all their might and maine for these things haue you spilt more Christian blood than euer Turke or Tyrant did at this daie you take it in euill gree that you may not still continue that course With Frederik the first you fel out for that hee durst place his owne name before the Popes which all Emperours euer did and as you fought with Henrie the fourth to get clergie mens liuings of his hands so you tumbled with this Frederik to exempt their persons least they should either for commodity or duty leane to the Prince when he beganne but to looke to your fingers that you should not decay his Realme inrich your selues you conceiued such immortal hatred against him that you tooke an othe to reuenge him not onely by conspiration but euen by succession With Frederike the seconde you delt much after the same sort whom you did excommunicate twise thrise foure times for no cause without all order of law iustice as if princes had bin footbals for popes to play with not powers for christian Bishops to reuerence Phi. Was not Frederik the 2. excommunicated for verie good causes Theo. They were very good I promise you Vrspergensis an Abbate then liuing saith of them The pope of very pride the first yeare of his Popedom began to excoÌ„municate Frederik the Emperor for friuolous false pretences without al order of iudgement Phi. But Blondus Platina tel you an other tale Blondus saith The first yeare of his coronation making light account of his oth he atteÌ„pted many enormous things against the Pope who warned him to forebeare these wicked perfidious and rebellious interprises but he euery day more more despised his admonitioÌ„ which made the Pope to terrifie him with an excoÌ„munication if he did not relent make restitutioÌ„ And when the Emperor set light by the first curse the second time the Pope added a depriuation from his Empire crowne third time when the Emperor stood still out the Pope very much offended therat absolued al his subiects from their othes wherby they were bouÌ„d to yeeld him alleageance And so saith Platina Honorius the third did excoÌ„municate depriue Frederik the second for molesting the Popes dominion against right law Theo. Your Italians perceiuing their Popes to haue bin very waspish eger against the Emperors that liked them not knowing what a shame it would be in the eies of al posterity for them to haue proceeded in such rage wtout vrgeÌ„t euident matter in general words do charge those Emperors with many grieuous crimes But we trust neither the Popes discretion nor the reporters construction vnlesse we see the particular facts that were committed They may think those things to be hainous which indeede are friuolous and if the quarell were for lands and territories lying in question betweene the Empire and the See of Rome the Pope did wickedly in his owne cause to abuse the keies for earthly mammon Phi. Who made you the Popes iudge Theo. I iudge him not there is one that shall iudge both him and his actes yet I may ask you the causes for which Frederike was accursed depriued Phi. You haue heard them out of Blondus and Platina Theo. Platina sayth Contra ius fasque ditioneÌ„ Pontificiam vexabat he molested the Popes inheritaunces against all right that Blondus calleth wickednesse rebellion and periurie These bee high wordes but I see no deedes And if we credite them which wrote that verie present when these thinges were doone the Pope did the Emperour open wrong in receiuing and succouring his rebels against him Vrspergensis sayth the first yeare after Frederike was crowned Emperour hee began to warre vppon two Earles of Thuscan Matthew and Thomas which had surprised certaine fortes and peeces of his territorie within Apulia and cleane put them from all they had who flying to Rome sought helpe at the Popes hand whereof the Emperour often complained that the See Apostolike fostered his publike aduersaries and enimies This was the falling out betweene the Prince and the Pope which your Italian Stories do mention Platina sayth it was the Popes right Vrspergensis two hundreth yeares before him and a writer in the midst of these actions saith it was the Princes right and that
this tragical intemperance of the Bishoppe of Rome I speake for the most part of them their manifest neglect of the Popes factours bulles plaine speach in their Synodes and assemblees wil testifie Which Auentinus a man of the same religion that you are thus reporteth Albertus the Popes agent in Germanie sent the Popes bulles to al the Germane Bishoppes for the publishing of Frederikes excommunication not one of them obeyeth him He commaunded the Abbats to accurse the Bishops they regarded him not He chargeth the Clergie to choose them newe Bishops and the Monkes to elect other Abbates if they continued in this contempt Euery one began to maruaile at the straungenes of this example neuer offered much lesse vrged before his time In no one place was this message quietly heard Al men stormed disdained and raged detesting the rashnes of the Popes Nuntio whose life and manners they were well acquainted with Germanie was ful of tumults men saying plainely that the Bishoppe of Rome commenced a most shamefull enterprise against right and equitie Euen so when Rauerius an other of the Popes Agents deliuered Sigefride Bishop of Rentzburge a bull from Rome against the Prince Al men derided the impudencie of the man demanded what that light and superstitious Frenchman or what the Bishoppe of Rome himselfe had to doe in Germanie without the consent of the Germane Bishoppes his collegues They were offended and displeased to see such tumults raised and discord sowed they proclaimed with open mouth that the libertie of Christians was oppressed and the flocke redeemed with the blood of Christ brought into bondage by false Pastors And when Albert woulde not cease The Bishops of Germanie not onely made light of his mandates but accursed him in euery Church Abbay as an enemie of Christian concord and a most pestilent Arch-heretike decreeing him to be worse than any Turke Iew Saracene or Tartare openly blaming the Bishoppe of Rome for attempting those thinges among Christians contrarie to right and reason contrarie to the Lawe of Nations and Doctrine of Christ which were not vsed among the most cruel Tartares In the midst of these sturres the Nobles Prelates of Germanie meeting to consult for the state of their common wealth Eberhardus the Archbishop of Saltzburge a graue and woorthie father one that sate primate of that place fourty sixe yeres and had experience of ten Bishops of Rome vnder Frederike the first Henry the sixt and nowe this Frederike hauing long tried and well marked the driftes and cunning of the Romish Prelates in the eares of the whole assemblie displaied your holie fathers armes with these wordes Our Lord and Sauiour Christ did earnestly warne vs that we shoulde take heede of false Christ and false Prophets which couered with sheepes clothing that is with the names of Christians and titles of Bishops woulde tyrannize ouer vs and illude vs and they as hee taught must be discerned by their workes to witte their auarice luxurie contention hatred emulation warres discordes and ambitious desire to raigne To whome did our heauenly king by these wordes more plainely point than to the Scribes Pharisees of Babylon Vnder the tytle of chiefe Bishoppe if wee bee not blinde wee see a most cruell wolfe in a shepheardes cloake The Bishoppes of Rome haue their waies and weapons for all sortes of Christian men By presuming circumuenting kindling warre vppon warre they are become great and nowe thy kill and slea the sheepe they dispell peace concord from the face of the earth they raise ciuill warres and domesticall seditions from the pit of hell euery day more and more they consume the strength of all men that they may ride on the neckes of all men Christ forbiddeth vs to hate our enemies chargeth vs to loue them and deserue well at their handes to keepe sayth with them and doe good for their euill But the Prelates of Rome commaund vs and that vnder a ioly countenance of pietie to violate that which is holy to abuse the sacred name of god to beguile men with to be vngratefull to those that haue delt well with vs and to requite good turnes with euill yea to fight striue deceiue betray and cousen they wil haue vs set nought by the maiestie and prouidence of GOD withstande nature and resist the supreme power that is ordained of GOD. Hildebrand was the first that eight skore and tenne yeeres agoe layde the foundation of Antichrists kingdome vnder colour of religion This wicked warre with Princes hee first began which his successours haue pursued to this day Beleeue me that haue looked in to their doings almost these fiftie yeres they will not cease till bringing the Emperour on his knees and dissoluing the honour of the Romane Empire and also oppressing the true Pastors which feede and dogges that are able to barke they quench all or kill al after this manner which you now behold The highest God tooke the shape of a seruaunt that hee might minister to his Disciples and wash their feete but those Bishoppes of Babylon will raigne all alone they can abide no equall they will not giue ouer till they haue trodden all vnder their feete and sitte in the temple of GOD aduauncing them-selues aboue all that is worshipped their thirst for riches and honour can not be satisfied Hee that is the seruaunt of seruauntes affecteth to bee the Lorde of Lordes as if hee were a God The Sacred Synodes and Councels of his brethren nay of his Soueraigne Lordes hee despiseth Hee feareth lest he shall be forced to giue accompt of those things which he daily doth against all law and order He speaketh proud things as if he were some God he laieth new plottes to establish him selfe a kingdome he chaungeth and maketh what lawes he list he sacketh spoileth deceiueth killeth being that sonne of perdition which they call Antichrist in whose forehead is written a name of blasphemie I AM A GOD I CAN NOT ERRE in the temple of God he sitteth and raigneth farre and wide I thinke you vnderstand him he speaketh so plaine Phi. He speaketh so odiously that I litle regard him Theo. Yet an archbishop and in great credit with Fredericke the first aboue 380. yeres agoe Phi. We care neither for Fredericke nor his schismatical Archbishop The. Lesse care we for the wicked and Pharisaicall attempts of your Romish Antichrist whose immoderat ambition and intollerable presumption the Kings Bishops of your owne religiâ—n haue alwayes detested and resisted and that with vehement and sharpe speache as you see by this example Phi. What strange thing is it to see some withstand him Theo. Lesse maruaile is it to see some obay him The name of the Church the power of the keyes the dumbnes of Bishops discord of Princes made many men yeeld that otherwise would not Phi. The Princes of Germanie choose an other in his place
but hee should deny God Hee sinned not against the king when he constantly went forward in the exercise of prayer to God Daniel therefore doeth rightly defend himself that he did no wickednesse against the king in that being bound to obey the preceptes of God he neglected the kinges commaundement to the contrary Then follow your wordes that Princes loose their right to be obeyed when they presume to commaund against God and that wee were better defie their edictes to their faces than obey them when they waxe so froward that they will put God from his right and sit in his throne Phi. For declaration of this text and for cutting off all cauillation about the interpretation of his wordes your brother Beza shall speake next who alloweth and highly commendeth in writing the fighting in Fraunce for religion against the lawes and lawfull king of that countrie saying in his Epistle dedicatorie of his new Testamēt to the Queene of England her selfe That the Nobility of France vnder the noble Prince of Condy laide the first foundation of restoring true Christian religion in France by consecrating most happily their blood to God in the battel of Druze Where of also the Ministers of the reformed French Churches as their phrase is do giue their common verdict in the confession of their faith thus We affirme that subiects must obey the Lawes pay tribute beare all burdens imposed and sustaine the yoke euen of infidel Magistrates so for all that that the supreme dominion and due of God bee not violated Theo. You haue already belied Caluine and nowe you take the like course with Beza and the French churches Their speach can bee no declaration of Caluines words if they did leane that way which you make them as they doe not therefore this is but a Friers tricke to abuse both writers Readers Phi. Beza highly commendeth the fighting in Fraunce for religion against the Lawes and lawfull king of that countrie Theo. The battell which Beza speaketh of was neither against the Lawes nor the king of that countrie That olde fore the Duke of Guise hating the Nobles of Fraunce as being himselfe a straunger and seeking to tredde them downe whom he knew inclined to religion that he might strengthen him selfe and his house to take the crowne if ought shoulde befall the kinges line as his sonne the yong Duke at this present in armes for that cause doth not sticke to professe watching his oportunitie whiles the king of Fraunce was yet vnder yeares armed him-selfe to the field as his sonne now doth and against all Lawe with open force murdered many hundreth subiectes as they were making their prayers to God in their assemblies vpon pretence that their seruice was not permitted by the Lawes of that Realme The Nobles and Princes of Fraunce perceiuing his malice seeing his iniustice that being a subiect as they were he would with priuate and armed violence murder innocents neither conuented nor condemned which the king himselfe if he had beene of age by the lawes of their Countrie could not doe gathered togither to keepe their owne liues from the fury of that violent bloodsucker and in that case if they did repell force what haue you to say against it or why should not Beza praise the Prince of Condy and others for defending the Lawes of God and that Realme against the Guises open iniurie with the consecrating of their blood most happily to God Phi. The Duke did nothing without the king and the Queene mother and therefore impugning the one they impugne the other Theo. The king was yong and in the Guises hands therefore his consent with the Peeres states of his Realme that a subiect should doe execution vpon his people by the sword without all order of iustice could bee nothing worth The king had neither age to discerne it nor freedome to denie it nor law to decree it Phi. The Queene mother had her sonne in custodie and not the Duke and with her consent were these thinges done Theo. Of the Queene mother of Fraunce I will say no more but that the auncient lawe of that Realme did barre her from the Crowne and therefore her consenting with the Guise might sharpen the doer but not authorize the deede Phi. Defend you then their bearing armes against the king Theo. To depriue the king or annoy the Realme they bare none but to saue themselues from the violent and wrongfull oppression of one that abused the kinges youth to the destruction of his lawes Nobles and commons Phi. As you say Theo. And you shall neuer proue the contrary But these thinges are without our limites Wee be scholers not souldiers diuines not lawyers English not French The circumstances of their warres no man exactly knoweth besides themselues as also we knowe not the lawes of that Land We wil therefore not enter these actes which haue so many parts precedentes causes concurrents and those to vs vnknowen and yet all to bee discussed and proued before Beza may be charged with this opinion by his cōmending the battel of Druze but will rather giue you his vndoubted iudgement out of his owne workes quite against that which you slaunder him with Purposely treating of the obedience which is due to Magistrates thus hee resolueth Quod autem attinet ad priuatos homines tenere illos oportet plurimum inter se differre iniuriam inferre iniuriam pati Iniuriam enim pati nostrum est sic praecipiente Domino suo exemplo nobis praeeunte quum nobis illam vi arcere non licet ex nostrae vocationis praescripto extra quam nefas est nobis vel pedem ponere neque aliud vllum remedium hic proponitur priuatis hominibus tyranno subiectis praeter vitae emendationem preces lacrymas As touching priuate men they must holde great difference betweene doing and suffering wrong It is our part to suffer iniurie the Lord so commaunding and teaching vs by his owne example for so much as it is not lawfull for vs to repell it with force by the prescript of our calling from the which we may not step one foote neither is there here proposed any other remedy for priuate men that are vnder a tyrant but the amending of their liues and therewithall prayers and teares And making a plaine distinction betweene not obeying and taking armes whē the Magistrate commaundeth against God hee saith This rule is firme and sure that we must obey God rather than man so often as we can not obey the preceptes of men but wee must violate the authoritie of that supreme King of Kinges and Lord of Lordes yet so that wee remember it is one thing not to obey them and an other thing to resist or take armes which God hath not permitted thee So the midwiues are praised that obeyed not Pharaoh and the Apostles and all the Prophetes and Martyrs could by no tyrants bee
brought to betray the truth with their silence What then we thinke of the subiectes dutie to the Magistrate you shall far more certainly and truly learne by this our doctrine than by their slanders which are not ashamed to ioyne vs with the frantike Anabaptistes subuerting the Magistrates authority How the confession of the reformed churches in Fraunce should allow rebellion I see no coniecture in their words vnlesse a rebel may haue them to mistake and depraue at his pleasure Subiectes must obey the lawes pay tribute beare al burdens imposed and sustaine the yoke euen of infidel Magistrates so for all that that the supreme dominion due of God be not violated What mislike you in these words Would you that Infidels should bee serued afore or aboue God Phi. Their meaning is that if Gods due be once violated we must no longer pay tribute nor obey the Lawes of any Prince Theo. How gather you that out of this place Their wordes sound otherwise Subiectes must obey the lawes and sustaine the yoke euen of Infidels so that the supreme dominion of God be not violated Phi. If that be violated they must obey no longer but elect an other Prince Theo. That is your rebellious inclination not their position They say subiectes must obey Princes so farre foorth as the supreme dominion of God bee not violated In any matter if the choice come betweene God and the Prince which of the twaine shal be serued and obeied God must euer be preferred Phi. Surely they meane that if once the Magistrate violate the supreme dominion of God we must account him no longer a magistrate Theo. The diuell himselfe can shew no greater malice than to peruert that which is well spoken and to force a leude sense of his owne on an other mans wordes It is euident they neuer ment that if the Magistrate once violate Gods due the peâ—ple might reiect him for then were it not needeful at al to sustaine the yoke of aâ— infidel as their owne wordes import because he can not be an Infidell except he first violate the supreme dominion of God by commanding against his truth in matters of religion and therefore they ment as their wordes lie that euen Infidels if they bee Princes must be obeyed but so that Gods due bee euer forprised If they presume to violate the dominion which God hath reserued to himselfe we may not rebel that is your Iesuitical doctrine but disobey them in that or any point that is prescribed by man against the will of God and submit our selues to indure persecution for righteousnesse sake which as our Sauiour assureth vs is not without great and happy recompence Phi. Zuinglius likewise a cater-cosen to the Caluinistes in religion writeth thus If the Empire of Rome or what other soueraigne soeuer should oppresse the sincere Religion and we negligently suffer the same wee shal be charged with contempt no lesse than the oppressors thereof themselues whereof we haue an example in the fifteenth of Ieremy where the destruction of the people is prophecied for that they suffered their king Manasses being impious and vngodly to be vnpunished And more plaine in an other place When kinges saith he rule vnfaithfully and otherwise than the rule of the Gospell prescribeth they may with God be deposed as when they punish not wicked persons but specially when they aduance the vngodly as idle Priests c. Such may be depriued of their dignity as Saul was Theo. I vndertake not to discusse or defend ech seueral mans opinioÌ„ or speech The Romanes we know could neuer abide in their citie the name of a king The commonwealthes of Venice Millan Florence Genua are of the same minde Many states haue gouernors for life or for yeares as they best liked that first erected their policies yet a soueraignty still remaning somwhere in the people somewhere in the Senate somwhere in the Prelates Nobles that elect or assist the Magistrate who hath his iurisdictioÌ„ allotted and prefixed vnto him thus far and no further and may be resisted recalled from any tyrannous excesse by the generall and publike consent of the whole state where hee gouerneth In Germanie the Emperour him-selfe hath his boundes appointed him which he may not passe by the lawes of the Empire the Princes Dukes cities that are vnder him haue power to gouerne vse the sworde as Gods ministers in their own charges And though for the maintenance of the Empire they be subiect to such orders as shall bee decreed in the conuent of all their States and according to that direction are to furnish the Emperour with men and monie for his necessarie warres and defences yet if he touch their policies infringe their liberties or violate the specialties which hee by oth and order of the Empire is bound to keepe they may lawfully resist him and by force reduce him to the ancient and receiued fourme of Gouernment or else repell him as a tyrant and set an other in his place by the right and freedome of their Country Therefore the Germanes doinges or writinges can helpe you litle in this question They speake according to the lawes and rights of the Empire theÌ„selues being a verie free state and bearing the sworde as lawfull Magistrates to defend their liberties and prohibite iniurie against all oppressours the Emperour himselfe not excepted In this sense Zuinglius may say that if the Empire of Rome or any other Soueraigne should oppresse the truth they that haue rightful power by the lawes of their country to withstand should negligently suffer the same they shal be charged with contempt no lesse than the oppressors themselues but that subiectes and such as are onely bounde to obey and not by the Lawes of the Lande authorised to vse the sworde shoulde take weapon in hande to displace the Prince and change the state that Zuinglius neuer sayde nor much lesse that the Pope might warrant such priuate violence Phi. For his example he bringeth the men of Iuda and Ierusalem whom God by Ieremie threatned to destroy for that they suffered their king Manasses being impious and vngodly to be vnpunished yet the people of Israel had no such Soueraingty ouer their king Theo. What Soueraignty the whole people of Israel had ouer their kinges is a question amongst the learned Zuinglius might be of opinion they had When Saul would haue put Ionathan his son to death the people would not suffer him so to do but deliuered Ionathan that hee died not When Dauid purposed the reducing of the Arke his speech to the people was If it please you we will send to the rest of our brethren that they may assemble themselues vnto vs. After Salomons death all the congregation of Israell came and said to Roboam make thy fathers yoke which he put vpon vs lighter and we wil serue thee as if it had lien in their choice
freshly approue and practise The correction that is here laide on you you euery where amplifie with wordes of the highest and hoattest degree as if it were tyranny to touche the hemmes of your garmentes notwithstanding you seeke to pull the Crowne from the Princes head and teach others to treadde the same path by your example but such is your daintinesse that you offering others fier and sword neuer thinke it sharp enough And tasting no quicker discipline with vs for twentie yeres than the losse of two shillings by the weeke or some restraint of libertie crie out of the greatest persecution and tribulation that euer was since the Gothes and Vandals times We speake of things that are in the eyes and eares of al men what punishment did the Lawes of this realme the first twenty yeres of her maiesties raigne inflict to any recusant for religion but either imprisonment or amercement Which was as easie as you coulde wish till within these sixe or seuen yeeres by the facilitie of the Lawe which you despised your attempts grewe so daungerous that the Prince was forced for the repressing of your audacious aduenture to temper her Lawes with more seueritie You must thanke your selues therefore if this latter affliction seeme some-what heauier till you gaue the onset to put the bull in execution which depriued her highnes of the crowne you were vsed with as much mercy and clemencie as was possible for a Christian prince to afford vnruly subiects whatsoeuer hath since fallen out must bee imputed not to her maiesties inclination whereof you had so good proofe for twenty yeeres but to your wicked and vndutifull affection that were perplexed to see her liue and gouerne in so long happynesse and therefore assayed to shorten her reigne Philand You neuer founde that affection in any Catholike Theoph. Wee neede not search your affections for it you haue made it an open point of your fayth which no Catholique as you teach must denie though the affirming of it shoulde cost him his life Philand What doe wee teach Theo. That if the Pope say the woorde none of your Catholiques within this Realme must obey or accompt her Maiestie for Queene of Englande And because you woulde bee sure to roote this perswasion in the heartes of your adherentes you deliuer it them as a part of their fayth which they must auouche and much more execute notwithstanding any daunger of death that may bee offered Philand Where doe wee teach so Theoph. In the cases of conscience wherewith you furnished the Iesuites that came into Englande There to the 55. article when you bee asked whether notwithstanding the bull of Pius the fifth that was giuen out or any bull that the Bishoppe of Rome can hereafter giue foorth all Catholikes bee bounde to yeelde obedience fayth and loyaltie to Queene Elizabeth as to their lawfull Prince and Soueraigne you make this resolution Qui hoc modo interrogat illud quaerit an id potuerit S. Pontifex facere Cui quaestioni quid debeat Catholicus respondere clarius est quà m vt a me hic explicetur Sirogatur ergo Catholicus credis Romanum Pontificem Elizabetham potuisse exauthorare respondebit non obstante quouis metu mortis credo Quaestio enim haec ad fidem spectat exigit confessionem fidei Hee that demaundeth this question asketh in effect whether the Pope might do it or no. To the which demand what a catholik ought to answere it is plainer than that I need here to explicate If therfore a catholike be asked do you beleeue the Bishoppe of Rome may depriue Queene Elizabeth of her crowne He must answere not regarding any danger of death I beleeue hee may For this question is a point of fayth and requireth the confession of our fayth And your selfe in your defence of English Catholiks say This was the right and power of Saint Gregorie to depriue Princes and this hath beene the fayth of Christian men euer sith our Countrie was conuerted Why then are you so angrie that Iesuites should bee counted traytours since you make treason to be a point of your fayth and religion And howe iust cause hath the Prince to banish you her land vnder payne of death when you doe with this cunning inueighle her subiects to rebell against her Phi. It is no treason to say the Pope may depose Princes Theo. Much lesse is it a poynt of Christian fayth that the Pope may depriue the Queene of her Crowne as you falsly absurdly and traiterously teach Phi. The Pope receiued that power from Christ. Theo. If you did prooue it you had some colour to beleeue it but nowe you require all Catholikes boldly to put that into their Creede which the Pope himselfe for a thousand yeeres was ashamed to professe Phi. Hath hee not the keyes of the kingdome of heauen Theo. But you must prooue hee hath the keyes of all earthly kingdomes Phi. Hee may binde and loose Theo. Sinnes hee may where hee hath charge but no where Scepters Phi. If Princes persist in sinne hee may take their Scepters from them Theo. That is it which all this while you were to prooue you teach that for religion which the woorde of GOD reiecteth for rebellion you imbrace it as pietie which the Church of Christ abhorred as iniquitie Giue to Caesar sayth the sonne of God the thinges which are Caesars The swoorde and scepter are Caesars this therefore is a plaine precept to Peter him-selfe and all other Christians to suffer Caesar to enioy his owne Nowe shewe you an other that you may take from Caesar that which is Caesars When one sayde Master bid my brother diuide the inheritance with mee the Lorde answered man who made mee iudge or diuider ouer you If Christ would not meddle with priuate mens inheritances as being without the compasse of his vocation I pray you who could make the Pope iudge and disposer of Princes crownes Our Sauiour being asked of Pilate what kingdome hee claymed openly auouched my kingdome is not of this world and you by one turne of the keies which he gaue to Peter and the rest of his Apostles would bring all the kingdomes of the woorlde to bee at the Popes appointing S. Augustine assureth Princes by force of these words that they shall not need to feare depriuation of their earthly kingdoms at Christs hands Why enuy you sayth he ye kings Marke enuie not Christ is a king but farre otherwise than you are which sayd my kingdome is not of this world Feare not therfore lest the kingdome of this worlde bee taken from you rather an other kingdome shall bee giuen you and that of heauen where hee is king And so expressely resolueth Kinges ought not to feare lest they loose their kingdome or that their kingdome bee taken from them as wretched Herode feared Which is vtterly against you that make it a point of your fayth for the Pope to take
We may do better to learne obedience than sawcely to check the magistrate for allotting such penalties as we do not like yet this I wil say there is no conspiracie so pernicious and dangerous to the State as that which is secretly crept into the hart vpon a sense of deuotion and outwardly couered with a shew of religion If therfore the Prince seuerely reuenge both your pretences in opinion practises in execution absurdly grounded on Peters keyes and wickedly deriued thence for the remouing of her crowne defacing of her person and diminishing of her right that rigor may wel be defended as comming from iust and lawfull authoritie not without sufficient and euideâ—t necessitie neither can you bring ought against it but onely that you professe it as a point of your Catholique religion not of any sinister or direct intention to hurt her maiestie or any other Christian Prince which is most friuolous false For the Popes authoritie iurisdiction and power lately claymed by him and vsurped within this Realme and since maintained extolled and defended by you and such your adherents as haue suffered death to prescribe Lawes as hee list to commaund Princes and interdict their Realmes yea to depriue them of their crownes absolue their subiects licence rebellions and dispence with the murdering of heretikes as you call them euen of Princes themselues This authoritie iurisdiction and power we deny to bee any doctrine or doubt of Christian religion or to bee so much as once spoken or thought of I say not by the Scriptures which put no difference betweene the Pope and an other Bishoppe but by any father or Councell for a thousande yeeres in the Church of God It was the meere deuise and drift of Antichrist to make himselfe mightie when it was first attempted by Hildebrand and it is nowe coloured by you with the name of religion because you would poyson the people the sooner with that perswasion haue somewhat to say for your selues when you be charged with rebellion and disobedience to the temporall magistrate Phi. Your owne masters and leaders whom I trust you will not condemne for Traytours haue detested the title of Supreme head of the Church in princes as well as wee the Lutherans flatly controling it in generall and Caluin himselfe with all the Puritants much misliking and reprehending the first grant therof to king Henry Why then put you poore men to death for that which your owne side abhorreth Theo. Your brethren were not put to death for denying her maiestie to bee supreme head of Christes Church in Englande in causes ecclesiasticall though one of them for want of trueth or wit did so report at his end and you for lacke of better proofe haue brought his owne woordes spoken in fauour and excuse of himselfe as some worthie witnes No man is compelled by the lawes of this Realme to confesse any such title in the Prince much lesse punishable by death for denying it and therefore your martyr was a Lyer at the houre of his death and either of malice inuerted or of ignorance misdeemed the cause for which he dyed Phi. It is all one to bee head of the Church and to bee chiefe Gouernour in causes ecclesiasticall Theo. They suffered neither for the one nor for the other but for maintaining and defending the iurisdiction and power of the Bishop of Rome heretofore claymed and vsurped in this Realme which generall includeth all your erroneous and trayterous assertions of the Popes power tending no way to religion but only sauouring of the Popes pride to be ruler and displacer of Princes And therfore either proue that claime to pertaine to faith or leaue your vayne presuming and fond discoursing that a number of your brethren haue beene condemned and executed for meere matter of religion Though you list to take that for spirituall which is temporall and cal it religion which in deede is sedition yet your idle multiplying of words and changing of names doeth not conuince your quarrel to bee righteous or the Lawes of this Land to bee tyrannous Shewe that power iurisdiction and authoritâ—e which your holy father hath heretofore claymed and vsed in this realme to bee consonant to the lawes of God or church of Christ for a thousand yeres and wee will yeeld your friends and familiars haue dyed for religion otherwise you do but face out the matter with fierie words to keepe deceiued and simple sâ—ules from suspecting the secrets of your profession As for supreme head of the church it is certaine that title was first transferred from the Pope to king Henry the eight by the Bishops of yoâ—r side not of ours though the pastors in King Edwards time might not wel dislike much lesse disswade the stile of the crowne by reason the king was vnder yeres and so remained vntil he died yet as soone as it pleased God to place her maiestie in her fathers throne the Nobles preachers perceiuing the words head of the church which is Christs proper and peculiar honour to be offensiue to many that had vehemently refelled the same in the Pope besought her highnesse the meaning of that word which her father had vsed might be expressed in some apter plainer termes and so was the Prince called Supreme gouernour of her Realme that is ruler and bearer of the sworde with lawfull authoritie to command and punish answerably to the word of God in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as well as in temporall And no forraine Prince or prelate to haue any iurisdiction superiority preeminence or authority to establish prohibite correct and chastice with publike lawes or temporall paynes any crimes or causes ecclesiasticall or spirituall within her Realme This Caluin and they of Magdeburge neuer misliked howsoeuer you would seeme to take aduantage of their words Phi. Caluin sayth it is sacrilege and blasphemie Looke you therefore with what consciences you take that othe which your owne master so mightily detesteth Theo. Nay looke you with what faces you alleage Caluin who maketh that stile to be sacrilegious and blasphemous as well in the Pope as in the Prince Reason therefore you receiue or refuse his iudgement in both If it derogate from Christ in the Prince so doeth it in the Pope if it doe not in the Pope as you defend no more doeth it in the Prince Yet we graunt the sense of the word supreme as Caluin conceiued it by Steuen Gardiners answere and behauiour is very blasphemous and iniurious to Christ and his word whether it bee Prince or Pope that so shall vse it For by supreme Caluin vnderstoode a power to do what the Prince woulde in all matters of religion without respect to the will or precepts of God which is a thing most impious Phi. His woordes are They were blasphemers in calling him supreme head of the Church vnder Christ. Theo. They are so but that which goeth before
when ten yeares after his comming to the crown he was forced to send for direction to Huldath the Prophetesse not finding a man in Iudah that did or could vndertake the charge Phi. These were kinges of the olde Testament and they had the Lawe of God to guide them Theo. Then since christian Princes haue the same Scriptures which they had and also the Gospell of Christ and Apostolike writings to guide them which they had not why should they not in their kingdomes retaine the same power which you see the kings of Iudah had vsed to their immortall praise and ioy Phi. The christian Emperours euer called Councels before they would attempt any thing in Ecclesiasticall matters Theo. What councell had Constantine when with his Princely power he publikely receiued and setled christian religion throughout the world twentie yeares before the fathers met at Nice What councels had Iustinian for all those ecclesiasticall constitutions and orders which he decreed and I haue often repeated What councels had Charles for the church lawes and chapters which he proposed and inioyned as wel to the Pastors as to the people of his Empire Phil. They had instruction by some godly Bishops that were about them Theo. Conference with some Bishops suâ—h as they liked they might haue but councels for these causes they had none In 480. yeares after christian religion was established by christian Lawes I meane from Constantine the first to Constantine the seuenth there were very neere fourtie christian Emperours whose Lawes and actes for ecclesiasticall affaires were infinite and yet in all that time they neuer called but sixe generall Councels and those for the Godhead of the Sonne and the holy Ghost for the two distinct natures and willes in Christ All other pointes of christian doctrine and discipline they receiued established and maintained without ecumenicall councels vpon the priuate instruction of such Bishops and Clerkes as they fauored or trusted Theodosius as I shewed before made his owne choice what faith he would follow and had no man nor meanes to direct him vnto truth but his own prayers vnto God and priuate reading of those sundry confessions that were offered him And when neither Bishops nor Councels could get him to remoue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius alone with his witty behauior aunswere wan him to it For entering the Palace and finding Arcadius the eldest sonne of Theodosius lately designed Emperor and sitting with his father Amphilochius did his dutie to the father and made no account of his son that sate by him Theodosius thinking the Bishop had forgotten himselfe willed him to salute his sonne to whom the Bishoppe replied that which he had done to the father was sufficient for both Whereat when the Emperour began to rage to conâ—â—er the contempt of his sonne for his dishonour the wise Bishoppe inferred wiâ—h a loude voice Art thou so grieued O Emperour to see thy sonne neglected and so much out of pacience with those that reproach him Assure thy selfe then that almighty God hateth the blasphemers of his Sonne and is offended with them as with vngratefull wretches against their Sauiour and deliuerer Had you beene in the primatiue church of Christ you woulde haue gallantly disdained these and other examples of christian kings and Countries conuerted instructed somtimes by Marchaunts sometimes by women most times by the single perswasioÌ„ of one man without al legal means or iudicial proceedings the poore soules of very zeale imbracing the word of life wheÌ„ it was first offered them and neglecting your number of voices consent of Priestes competent courts as friuolous exceptioÌ„s against God dangerous lets to their saluation Frumentius a christian child taken prisoner in India the farther and brought at length by Gods good prouidence to beare some sway in the Realme in the nonage of the king carefully sought for such as were christians among the Romane Merchants and gaue them most free power to haue assemblies in euery place yeelding them whatsoeuer was requisite and exhorting them in sundry places to vse the christian praiers And within short time he built a Church brought it to passe that some of the Indians were instructed in the faith and ioyned with them The king of Iberia neere Pontus when he saw his wife restoared to health by the prayers of a christian captiue and himselfe deliuered out of the suddaine danger that he was in only by thinking and calling on Christ whom the captiue woman named so often to his wife sent for the woman and desired to learne the manner of her religion and promised after that neuer to worship any other God but Christ. The captiue woman taught him as much as a woman might admonished him to build a church and described the forme how it must be done Whereupon the king calling the people of the whole nation together told them what had befallen the Queene and him and taught them the faith and became as it were the Apostle of his nation though hee were not yet baptized The examples of England France other couÌ„tries are innumerable where kings coÌ„monwealths at the preaching of one man haue submitted themselues to the faith of Christ without councels or any Synodal or iudicial proceedings And therefore ech Prince people without these meanes haue lawful power to serue God Christ his Son notwithstanding twentie Bishops as in our case or if you will twentie thowsand Bishops should take exceptious to the Gospell of truth which is nothing else but to waxe mad against God by pretence of humane reason and order Phi. Their examples and yours are not like They receiued the same faith that the church of Christ professed you doe not Theo. They know not what the church of christ ment when they submitted themselues to the faith of Chriâ—â— they respected not the countenaunces of men but the promises of God when they first beleeued And were you not so wedded to the Popes tribunals decrees that you thinke the God of heauen shoulde not preuaile nor commaunde without your allowance you would remember that the church her selâ— was first collected and after increased by Christes Apostles maugre the councelles of Priestes and Courtes of Princes that derided the basenesse and accused the boldnesse of such as would preach Christ without their permission Phi. The Apostles had a iust and lawfull defence for their doinges Theo. What was it Phi. We ought rather to obey God than men Theo. Was that authoritie sufficient for them to withstand the Synodes of Priestes and swordes of Princes Phi. Most sufficient Theo. And the truth of God chaungeth not neither doth his right to commaund against the powers and lawes of al mortal men decay at any time Phi. By no means Theo. Then this must only be the question betwixt vs whether the Prince or the Prelates stoode for that which God commaundeth If the
Prince tooke part with God then your clergy were but Antichristes Atturnies and all your Apologies Defences Replications and Demonstrations are but prophane brables and quarels such as Iulian or Porphyrie might and did obiect against Christ for that his faith came first into the worlde by the disordered rashnesse as they thought and tumultuous headinesse of the common people euen as the Iewes also disdained Christ himselfe and said of his followers Doth any of the Rulers or of the Pharisees beleeue in him but this people that know not the law are cursed If your Bishops held the faith then had you wrong before God but no violence before men sith euerie Realme may dispose them-selues their Landes and liuinges as they see cause and make choice of their religion and teachers though they take not vpon them to decide and define which is truth and which errour as you falsly and scornefully report Phi. Thy make it treason to call their proceedinges heresie Theo. To call the Prince tyrant or heretike is no point of Religion but plaine rayling on powers which all christians are prohibited That law represseth the filthines of your tongues it forceth not the perswasions of your hearts it is no decision of heresie but a prohibition of cursed and intemperate speech which of duty you should forbeare and the Prince may iustly punish Phi. Shall it be death for a man to speake what he thinketh Theo. If the speach be slaunderous or opprobrious why should it not He that curseth his father or mother shal dy the death by the law of God and the selfe same reuerence is due to the magistrat thou shalt not raile vppon the iudge nor speake euill of the ruler of the people yea saith Salomon Curse not the king no not in thy thought and though Dauid himself in respect of his oth spared Shimei that railed on him yet he charged Salomon his sonne to giue him â—â— his deserts Thou shalt not count him innocent for thou art wise and knowest what thou oughtest to do vnto him therefore thou shalt cause his hoare head to goe downe to the graue with blood Therefore you must either leaue railing with Shimei or not thinke it much to suffer at Salomons handes as Shimei did Phi. The Princes person we will spare but that shal neuer driue vs to think well of your proceedinges Theo. If this Realme haue receiued or established any other faith than that which Christ commaunded the Apostles preached the catholike church imbraced then let all our proceedings bee violent disordered and reprochfull but if we haue not then looke to your selues For the Prince and the Parliament had Gods and mans authoritie to do as they did Phi. If doth not hurt vs our faith is catholik Theo. No one point of your faith which we reiect is catholike And the reformation which is now setled by the lawes of this Realme in matters of religion is warranted by the word of God and auncient iudgement of Christes church Phi. Nay our faith is grounded on the sacred Scriptures the generall consent of the catholike church Theo. Proue that and we require no more Phi. Will that content you Theo. Yea verily But you were best beginning a fresh matter to spit in your hand and take better hold than heretofore you haue done Phi. My handfast is so sure that you shall not shake it off Theo. Your heart serueth you what soeuer your handfast doth Proceeding with the next part wee shall see how sure you holde The end of the third part THE FOVRTH PART SHEWETH THE REFORMATION OF THIS Realme to be warranted by the word of God and the ancient faith of Christes Church and the Iesuites for all their crakes to be nothing lesse than Catholikes Phi. WHAT one point of our religion is not catholike Theo. No one point of that which this Realme hath refused is truely catholike Your hauing and adoring of images in the church your publike seruice in a â—oung not vnderstood of the people your gazing on the Priest whiles he alone eateth drinketh at the Lordes table your barring the people from the Lordes cup your sacrificing the sonne of God to his father for the sinnes of the worlde your adoring the elementes of bread and wine with diuine honour in stead of Christ your seuen Sacramentes your Shrift your releasing soules out of Purgatorie by prayers and pardons your compelling Priestes to liue single your meritorious vowing and perfourming Pilgrimages your inuocation of Saincts departed your rules of perfection for Monkes and Friers your relying on the Pope as head of the church and Uicar generall vnto Christ these with infinite other superstitions in action and errors in doctrine wee deny to haue any foundation in the Scriptures or confirmation in the generall consent or vse of the catholike church Phi. We sticke not on your words which you vtter to your most aduantage but be not these things as we defend them and you reiect them Catholike The. Nothing lesse Phi. What count you catholike Theo. You were best define that it toucheth you neerest Phi I meane catholike as Vincentius doth that wrote more than 1100. yeares ago Theo. So do I. And in that sense no point of your religion which this Realme hath refused is catholike Phi. All. Theo. None Phi. These are but bragges Theo. Indeede they are so Nothing is more common in your mouthes than catholike and in your faith nothing lesse Phi. Who proueth that Theo. Your selues who after you haue made great sâ—urre for catholike catholike and all catholike when you come to issue you returne it with a non est inuentus Phi. Will you lie a litle Theo. I might vse that sometimes which is so often with you but in this I do not Phi. I say you do Theo. That will appeare if you take any of those points which I haue rehearsed Phi. Which you will Theo. Nay the choice shall be yours because the proofe must be yours Phi. Take them as they lie Hauing and worshipping of Images in the church is it not catholike Theo. It is not Phi. Eight hundred yeares agoe the generall councell of Nice the second decreed it lawfull and euer since it hath beene vsed Theo. Catholike should haue foure conditions by Vincentius rule this hath not one of them There can nothing be catholike vnlesse it be confirmed two wayes first by the authoritie of Gods law and next by the traditioÌ„ of the catholike Church not that the canon of the Scripture is not perfect sufficient enough for all pointes of faith but because many men drawe and stretch the Scriptures to their fansies therefore it is verie needefull that the line of the Propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation should bee directed by the rule of the ecclâ—siasticall and catholike sense Now in the catholike Church her selfe we must take heede wee hold that which hath beene beleeued at all times in all places of all
vt Deorum vestrorum partes forsitan adoratis Crosses wee neyther worship nor wish for you that dedicate woodden Gods you happily adore woodden crosses as partes of your Gods But what neede I farther refell that councell as not catholike which was presently reiected and pithily confuted by the Bishoppes and churches of the West whose labours are extant at this day brought to light by men of your owne religion and saued from the moothes which you ment should consume them Thither wee sende you there you shall finde both your adoration of images disclaimed as vncatholike and the reasons and authorities of your second Nicene councell throughly skanned and scattered almost 800. yeares before our time Phi. That booke we receiue not as thinking it to be rather some late forgerie of yours than a monument of that antiquitie Theo. If you receiue not the books that were safe in your own keeping and published by your neerest friends howe should we trust the corruptions that are framed to your purposes and no where fouÌ„d but in your own libraries Phi. Since you distrust our writteÌ„ records why do you not beleeue the faithful report of the church which is the pillour of truth can not be corrupted The. Nay since forgeries be so rise that no father is free from them so grosse that euery child may discerne theÌ„ why do not you beleeue the report of God himselfe the founder and builder of the church and that witnessed in his word of which there is no suspition and against the which there is no exception Phi. As though we did not Theo. Then for adoration of images which you defend shew what presideÌ„t you haue in the word of God Phi. We neede not Theo. We know you cannot Phi. And I reply that we neede not The. Doth it concerne the christian faith and Catholike religion which the godly must professe or no Phi. It doeth Theo. Then must you shew some authority for it in the sacred scriptures or else they must repel it as impious Phi. We haue it by tradition from the Apostles Theo. You would haue wrested so much out of S. Basill but that your cunning failed you Phi. From them we had it Theo. Wee say you had no such thing from them and further we adde that if it be a matter of doctrine beliefe as you make it you must haue it testified in their writinges and not concealed among their traditions Phi. No Sir we beleeue many thinges whereof this is one that are not written but were deliuered vs by secrete succession Theo. The greater is your sinne and the vnsounder is your Creede In matters of faith you should beleeue nothing but that which is expressely warranted by the scriptures And therefore in this and other points of your Romish deuotion now brought to triall if you want the foundation of true faith and religion in vaine do you seeke to make a shew of catholicisme with such patches pamslets as Monks Friers haue forged colored with the names of fathers The catholike church of Christ neuer receiued nor beleeued any point of faith vppon tradition without the Scriptures Phi. We haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures al the fathers most euident reasons that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing at all Theo. Wee knowe you can bragge but you haue neither Scripture father nor reason to impugne that which we affirme Phi. For traditions we haue Theo. Tradition is any thing that hath beene deliuered or taught by word or mouth or by writing touching the groundes of faith or circumstances and ceremonies of christian Religion And therefore when you muster the fathers to disproue the scriptures and to establish an vnwritten faith vnder the credit of traditions you corrupt the writers and abuse the readers Phi. How can we doe that when wee bring you the very words of the Authors themselues Theo. Hâ—w can you choose but doe it when you force the fathers to speake against themselues Phi. Do wee Theo. Your Rhemish translators perceiuing the weight of their whole cause to lie on this haue marshalled nine fathers in a ranke namely S. Chrysostom S. Basill S. Hierom S. Augustine S. Epiphanius S. Ireneus S. Tertullian S. Cyprian and Origen but to what purpose can you tell Phi. To proue that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing Theo. Beleeue them as articles of our faith or exercises of our profession Phi. Why make you that distinction Theo. Because the very same fathers that say traditions must bee receiued besides the Scriptures auouch likewise as I before haue shewed that no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must be receiued or beleeued without scriptures Now choose whether you will graunt a flat contradiction in them or conclude with vs ergo the traditions which they meane bee no partes nor pointes of the christian faith And so these nine fathers on whose credits you thought to plant your late found faith hold nothing with you but rather against you Phi. How make you that appeare Theo. Uiew them once more Wee haue their plaine confession that all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures You produce them to witnes that your traditions bee not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your own deponents we conclude that your traditioÌ„s be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the catholik faith without which we can not be saued Looke well to this issue they must either dissent from your religion or from themselues Phi. Your maior is not yet proued Theo. Yes with firm surer authorities than those be which you bring let the places be skanned which I before rehearsed the matter left to the iudgement of the reader Or if you be loath to looke so far back examine shortly thâ—se that follow The holy Scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of truth sayth Athanasius The Gospell saith Chrysostom containeth al things whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation al that is fully laid downe in the Scriptures In the two Testaments sayth Cyril euery word or thing that pertaineth to God may be required discussed SufficieÌ„t to vs for saluatioÌ„ is the truth of Gods precepts saith Ambrose And Augustin There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy ghost sufficient for the saluation of the faithfull Vincentius Lirinensis whoÌ„ you greatly boast of but without all cause agreeth with the rest that The Canon of the Scripture is perfect sufficient more thaÌ„ sufficient to al things And againe Not that saith he The canon alone is not sufficient for al things as it were taking great heed least he should seeme to deny the fulnes of the scriptures which you purposely impugne vnder a colour of catholicisme by his writings Now cite not only nine but nines kore fathers if you wil for traditions the more you stirre the worse you
speed For the traditions which they mention bee either points of faith or not If they be then by the general confession of all antiquity they must be warraÌ„ted by the scriptures or els we must reiect theÌ„ If they be no parts nor consequents of the christian faith then do not those fathers weaken our assertion wheÌ„ we say that all points of faith must be proued by the scriptures this we gaine besides that the traditioÌ„s which you make the grouÌ„dwork of al your religion as they be not written so be they not necessary to saluation Phi. The faith it selfe is proued by tradition Theo. That doctrine which the Apostles deliuered by word of mouth the very same they put afterward in writing that it might be the touchstone triall of truth in times to come but this is nothing to such vnwritten verities as be different from the scriptures Teach what you wil by tradition so it accord with the written word of God we bée not against it but you may not build any point of faith vpon tradition except the scriptures confirme the same Phi. This is an error of yours which you seeke to bolster against the church The. You giue vs words we giue you proofs this which you cal an error of ours was taught receiued in the primatiue church for a catholik truth except you caÌ„ shew some points of faith which the father 's beleeued vpoÌ„ traditioÌ„ wtout scriptures the world wil suspect that you make traditioÌ„s but a cloake for your heresies Phi. S Augustin often writeth that many of the articles of our religion points of highest importance are not so much to be proued by scriptures as by traditioÌ„ The. You bely so many that it is no newes for you to bely S. Austen Where saith he so Phi. Namely auouching that in no wise we could beleeue that children in their infancy should be baptised if it were not an Apostolik tradition De gen ad lit lib. 10 cap. 23. Theo. But where doth S. Austen write this often that of many articles of religion points of highest importance Of so many high points you should haue shewed two at least Phi. Tradition caused him to beleeue that the baptized of heretiks should not be rebaptized notwithstanding S. Cryprians autority the manifold scriptures aleaged by him though they seemed neuer so pregnaÌ„t de bap lib. 2. cap. 7. Theo. Your heades bee so ful of traditions that you can not report a father without corruptions It is not true that Tradition nothing else caused him to beleeue this against CypriaÌ„s authority he was armed with scriptures reasons inuincible as himselfe both sheweth and saieth Prouoking a Donatist to conferre with him about this errour Ratione agamus diâ—inarum scripturarum authoritatibus agamus Let vs discusse this matter saith he by argumeÌ„t by the authorities of the diuine scriptures And repeating a reason that was expressed in the Princes edict forbidding rebaptizatioÌ„ he maketh the rebaptizers this offer Faciant mille Concilia Episcopi vestri huic vni sententiae respondeant ad quod volueritis consentimus vobis Let your Bishops assemble a thowsand councels answere but this one sentence we yeeld to you at your pleasures And therefore he doubted not to say of Cyprian though otherwise he did honour him very much Aliter sapiâ—t quam veritas diligentius considerata patefecit He was of an other opinion than that which the truth vpon more diligent consideration reueiled And when CypriaÌ„s epistle in this case was obiected he replied Cyprians epistles I esteeme not as canonicall but I coÌ„sider them by the canonical scriptures that which in them agreeth with the authority of the diuine scriptures I receiue with his praise that which doth not agree by his leaue I refuse The general custom of the câ—uâ—ch reuoked him from following Cypriâ—â—s authority though it were great and brought him to the deeper debating of the question but he which sayth that S. Augustine in all his conferences and writinges aleadgeth nothing against rebaptization but tradition may be rebaptized if his christianity be no more than his cunning Phi. For baptizing of infants his words be plaine It were not at al to be beleeued if it were not an Apostolike tradition Theo. I see the words wel enough but the meaning of the speaker in this place and the likenesse of the same speach in other places make me to thinke that a letter too much is crept into these wordes as through the iniuries of times and varietie of scribes many thowsand deprauations and diuerse lections were and are yet in the workes of S. Augustine and other fathers not onely by the iudgement of the learned but by the very sight of their margins Phi. A letter to much which is it Theo. You read Nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esset traditio I thinke it shoulde bee Nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esse traditio Esset for esse is a scope in writing soone committed but a matter of some moment in altering the sense Phi. And therefore you may not correct it without apparent proofe Theo. I may suspect it though I take not vpoÌ„ me to correct it but leaue it to the indifferent reader Phi. You must be led thereunto with very good reason Theo. First the very course of the sentence leadeth mee so to thinke Sainct Augustine in these three distunctiues Nequaquam spernenda neque vllo modo superflua deputanda nec omnino credenda The custome of our mother the Church in baptizing her infantes is neither to be despised nor anie waie to bee counted superfluous nor at all to bee beleeued did not meane to contradict him-selâ—e but by steppes to increase the credit of this custome and the third part Nec omnino credenda Not at all to be beleeued doeth rather euert all that went before than giue you any farther commendation to that Tradition For Not at all to be beleeued is as much as to be despised and counted superfluous which is repugnant to the wordes precedent But reading Esse â—or Esset the partes are consequent ech after other in better order and the last is the same that Sainct Augustine in other places doth often vtter in the very like manner and kinde of speech that here is vsed The custome of our mother the church in baptizing her infants is neither to bee despised nor by any meanes to bee accompted superfluous nec omnino credenda nisi Apostolica esse traditio nor at all to bee thought to be any other than an Apostolike tradition So speaking elsewhere of the very same matter he sayth Non nisi authoritate Apostolica traditum rectissimè creditur It is most rightly beleeued to bee none other than a tradition of the Apostles Where wee finde not onely the same purpose but the verie same phrase and force of speech that were vsed before
neither mans speach nor witte can comprehende howe it was done And againe Virgo cum parturit virgo post partum Vacuatur vterus infans excipitur nec tamen virginitas violatur Shee was a virgin when shee was deliuered and a virgin after She was deliuered her child borne and shee for all that a virgin The like we find in sundry other of those sermons Phi. But Heluidius was noted as an heretike by S. Augustine and others for saying that our Lady was knowen of Ioseph her husband after the birth of our Sauiour Theo. The Fathers might reiect him as an heretike for his impudent abusing the Scriptures to build a falshoode vpon them which was not contained in them and if they detested it as a rash and wicked slaunder for him against manifest trueth to blemish that chosen vessell which the holy Ghost had ouershadowed and the son of God sanctified with his presence we neither blame them nor mislike their doings But yet they neuer charged the Scriptures with imperfection as you doe S. Hierome purposely writing against Heluidius vseth the fulnes of the Scriptures as his best argument to defend her virginitie Vt haec quae scripta sunt non negamus ita ea quae non sunt scripta renuimus Natum esse Deum de Virgine credimus quia legimus Mariam Nupsisse post partum non credimus quia non legimus As we deny not those things which are written so we reiect those things which are not written That God was borne of a Virgine wee beleeue because we read That the same virgine Mary became a wife after the birth of her son we beleeue it not because we read it not S. Augustine alleageth Scripture for it with what successe I will not iudge If neither of these quiet your contentious spirits our answer shal be that when you make iust proofe that this is a poinct not of trueth which we graunt but of faith which you vrge then will wee not faile to shewe it consequent to that which is written You were wont to obiect other pointes of Religion as proued by tradition and not by Scripture amongest which you set the Godhead of the holy Ghost and his proceeding from the Father and the Sonne But I trust by this time you be either stilled in them or ashamed of them Phi. Not so neither For As we acknowledge this article to be most true so we are sure you haue no expresse Scripture for it Theo. Are you well aduised when to spite vs you teach the people that the highest mysteries of their faith cannot be warranted by the Scriptures Perceaue you not what a wrong it is to the spirite of GOD to holde his Diuinitie by Tradition and not by the word of God What ignorance is this if it be no worse to say that Athanasius Dydimus Basil Nazianzen Ambrose Cyril and Augustine in their special Treaties of this very point haue alleaged no Scriptures to confirme the Godhead of the Holy Ghost Phi. We speake not of them but of you Theo. As if in a common case of faith the Scriptures were not common to vs with them If they had Scriptures for it we haue if we haue none than had they none Phi. Expresse Scripture they had none Theo. Doe you plaie with idle wordes in so weightie matters of Christian faith Euident and plaine scriptures they had where the holy Ghost was called God what is expresse Scripture if that be not Phi. They had no such scripture Theo. Had they not Turne your booke a little better you shall find they had Glorificate Deum portate in corpore vestro Quem Deum nisi spiritum sanctum cuius corpora nostra dixerat esse Templum Glorifie God saith the Apostle and beare him in your bodie What God but the Holy ghost whose Temple before he called our bodies And againe When Peter had said durst thou make a lie to the holy Ghost Ananias thinking he had lied vnto men Peter sheweth the Holy Ghost to be God by and by adding thou hast not lied vnto men but vnto God These two places the same father vrgeth against the Arrians as very plain scriptures Glorificate ergo Deum in corpore vestro Vbi dilucidè ostendit Deum esse spiritum sanctum glorificandum scilicet in corpore nostro Et quod Ananiae dixit Petrus Apostolus Ausus es mentiri spiritui sancto Atque ostendens Deum esse spiritum sanctum non es inquit hominibus mentitus sed Deo Glorifie therefore God in your body saieth Paul Where very manifestly hee sheweth the holy Ghost to bee God which must be glorified in our body as in his Temple And that which Peter the Apostle saide to Ananias Durst thou lie vnto the holy Ghost And declaring the holy Ghost to be God thou hast not lied vnto men saith he but vnto God Ambrose taketh them for euident scriptures Quod praemiserit Spiritum addiderit non es mentitus hominibus sed Deo necesse est in spiritu sancto vt vnitatem diuinitatis esse intelligas Nec solum in hoc loco euidenter sancti spiritus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 id est diuinitatem Scriptura testatur sed etiam ipse Dominus dixit in Euangelio quod Deus spiritus est In that Peter first named the Spirite and presently saide thou hast lied not vnto men but vnto God wee can not choose but vnderstand the holy Ghost to be God Neither in this place only doth the Scripture euidently witnesse the Godhead of the holy Ghost but also in the Gospel the Lord himselfe saith that the spirite is God Nazianzen saith these and such like be expresse scriptures and that if you doubt thereof you be very grosse headed They which knewe the only blasphemie which is vttered against the Spirite to be irremissible and gaue Ananias and Saphira that horrible reproche for lying vnto the holy Ghost what doe they seeme to thee openly to professe the Spirite to be God or no How dull headed art thou and without al sense of the spirite if thou doubt thereof or needest farther teaching By so many names so forcible and expresly recorded in the Scriptures the holy Ghost is called Amongst those expresse names numbring this for one of the chiefest and clearest that the holy Ghost was called God as the words before directly witnesse Phi. His proceeding from the Father and the sonne cannot bee proued by scripture though his Godhead may Theo. How then came it first to be beleeued by Tradition or by scripture Phi. Certeinly not by scripture Theo. Your tongues be so vsed to vntruthes that your certainties be litle worth the Church of Christ receiued her faith concerning the proceeding of the Holy Ghost from the father and the sonne not by Tradition but by scripture Saint Augustine saith Firmely beleeue and no whit doubt the same holy Ghost which is one Spirit of the
determination of the second Nicene councell that images were louingly to be saluted imbraced kissed for so theÌ„selues expound the word AdoratioÌ„ which they vse was lesse pernicious than the former as tending rather to superstitious follie than to that sacrilegious impietie which after raigned in your schooles and yet that decision of theirs was nothing lesse than catholike no councell or father before them for the space of 790. yeares euer decreeing or defending any such thing in the church of God and the Bishops of England Germany France and Spaine forthwith contradicting confuting their presumption as vncatholike and your own schooles reuersing their assertion as voide of all truth for that no reasonlesse creature is capable of reuerence which yet that councell had allowed vnto images Painting of stories in the church is somwhat ancient but neither Apostâ—lik nor catholike It was receiued in some places vpon priuate mens affections as an ornament for their churches but vsed as altogither indifferent that is vrged on no man as a matter of religioÌ„ not only the whole church some huÌ„dreth yeares after Christ which yet was catholike wanted all such pictures but learned and godly Bishops without any suspition of eâ—rour or innouation traduced and repelled such paintings as things either superfluous or dangerous or both What accompt the councel of Eliberis Eusebius Epiphanius and Augustine made of pictures you heard before how Chrysostom Amphilochius Asterius and others esteemed them you may read in your owne books of Councels where the wicked superstitious vpholders of Images refute the CouÌ„cel of Constantinople but with shyfting lying most fit for the cause they tooke in hand To Epiphanius exhorting the Emperour not to bring Images into the Church no nor to tolerate them in priuate howsen adding this reason non enim fas est Christianum per oculos suspensum teneri sed per occupationem mentis it is not lawful for a ChristiaÌ„ to staÌ„d gazing with his eies but to haue his mind occupied they answer that this epistle was forged in Epiphanius name and that Epiphanius himself would neuer haue beene so bitter against Images The first is easilie sayd the second is falsely supposed without any proofe this epistle was auouched to be his in a Synod of 330. Bishops not loÌ„g before and Epiphanius is sharper against Images in his epistle to Iohn of HierusaleÌ„ which S. Hierom translated than he was in this which they disliked Eusebius dissuading the Empresse from regarding the painted Image of Christ with these words Quis igitur gloriae eiusmodi dignitatis splendores lucentes fulgurantes effigiare mortuis inanimatis coloribus vmbratili pictura posset who can resemble in deed and lifelesse colours with the shadow of a picture the shyning glittering brightnes of Christes glorie and dignitie is reiected as an heretike and condemned by those that liued many hundred yeres after him and were in credite or learning no way comparable to him Chrysostomes assertion Nos per scripta sanctorum fruimur praesentia non sane corporuÌ„ ipsoruÌ„ sed animaruÌ„ Imagines habentes we by writing enioy the presence of the sainctes not hauing any Images of their bodies but of their mindes Amphilochius protestation Non enim nobis sanctorum corporales vultus in tabulis coloribus effigiare curae est quoniam hijs opus non habemus we haue no care to resemble in colours the bodilie visages of the saincts because we haue no neede of them and Asterius admonition Ne pingas Christum in vestibus sed magis sumptu illo impensis pauperibus subueni paint not Christ in clothes or colours but rather relieue the poore with that expeÌ„ce charge they auoide as spoken by way of comparison not of illation as if meÌ„ in their comparisons did not speake truth affirme both partes as well as in their conclusions This was the skill esming of your late Nicene Synod to crie corruption on others when they themselues were most corrupt and with a shyft of words to decree that as Catholike which was repugnaÌ„t to the plaine precepts of God general iudgement of their forefathers in all ages and places before them For our parts we say with Origen Non igitur fieri id poterit vt Deum quis nouerit simulachris vt supplicet It can not be that a man should knowe God and bow him self to images and with Austen Let it be no Religion of ours to worship the workes of mens hands because the workmen that make them are the better of the twaine whom yet we may not worship The Law of God is so direct forbidding vs to bow to any Image similitude or likenes of any thing that no distinction can help you NotaÌ„da proprietas Deos coli ImagineÌ„ adorari quorum vtruÌ„que seruis Dei non conuenit Note sayth S. Hierom the proprietie of the speach Gods are worshipped Images are adored or bowed vnto whereof neither is fit for the seruants of God If you trust not the ancient fathers one of your own friends will tell you the same Non adorabis neque coles Inter quae distingue Non adorabis scilicet veneratio ne corporis vt inclinando eis vel genuslectendo Non coles scilicet affectione mentis Ad adorandum igitur colendum prohibitur Imagines fiers Thou shalt not adore them nor worship them Which are thus to be distiguished Thou shalt not adore them that is with any bodilie reuerence as bowing or kneeling to them Thou shalt not worship them with any deuotion of mind Images therefore are prohibited to bee either adored or worshipped Thus your owne fellowes were not so blind but they perceiued the strength and force of Gods commaundement to be such as we defend at this present against you And though he labor to shift off the matter with a rule of S. Augustine that the honor passeth from the signe to the thing signified yet he both missed himself and misconstred his author For S. Augustine in that place putteth a manifest bar against Images and precisely purposely excludeth them out of the number of signes which he meant to treat of when he gaue this rule His wordes are Qui veneratur vtile signum diuinitus institutum cuius vim significationemque intelligit non hoc veneratur quod videtur sed illud potius quo talia cuncta referenda sunt He that reuerenceth a profitable signe ordayned by God the force and signification whereof he well vnderstandeth doth not renerence that which he seeth but rather that to which al such signes are to be referred This rule reacheth to no signes but to such as are ordained by Gods own institution which Images are not therefore are cleane without the coÌ„pas of S. Augustines speach Again the veneration here touched is not any worshipping or adoring the creatures which God vseth for signes but a
Saint Hierom of when hee sayde Quocunque te verteris whither soeuer thou turne thy selfe Philand Of other Countries Theoph. Of what other Countries Philand Of all other Countries and specially of the West partes where the latin seruice was Theoph. So you woulde enforce his woordes but you doe him the more wrong Philand Are not his woordes plaine Quocunque te verteris turne whither thou wilt the husbandman holding his plough singeth Allelu ia Theoph. In deede his woordes are plainely peruerted by you For Hierom speaketh not of the West but of the East not of Countries but of a poore village not of Latinists but of such as were borne and bred in Iurie where the natural speach of the place was Hebrewe Phi. Proue that to bee S. Hieroms meaning Theoph. They bee his woordes both before and after and those so plaine that I maruaile you could misse them In Christi vero vt supra diximus villula tota rusticitas extra Psalmos silentium est Quocunque te veteris arator stiuam tenens decantat Aallelu ia Sudans messor Psalmis se auocat curua attondens vite falce vinitor aliquid Dauidicum canit Haec sunt in hac prouincia carmina In the village of Christ as we haue said before there is nothing but rusticitie silence except it be in singing of psalmes Turne whither you wil in this village the husbandman holding his plough continually singeth Allelu ia The mower when he sweateth and is wearie refresheth himselfe with psalmes The Gardiner as he dresseth his vine with his hooke hath some peece of Dauid in his mouth These are the songes of this prouince or place What word or title is here for the seruice in the latine toung except you thinke that as the Pope claimeth to bee Lord of the whole worlde so euery Countrie throughout the worlde spake then nothing but Latine which were a merrie conceite to make sporte with if there were nothing looked for at your handes but laughter Phi. In sifting our authorities you take hold of euery nice and curious point which with good conscience we did and may despise Theo. Call you that a good conscience to muster out eleuen authorities as ancient and flat testimonies for defence of your errour against the woordr of God and the church of Christ and not one of them any way respecting that which you should would seeme to proue That no Nation in the Primatiue church East West North nor South had their diuine seruice in a tongue not vnderstood of themselues is our assertion You shew that in Italie and Africa where the people perfectly vnderstood the Romane tongue they had their seruice in Latine and that the barbarous of this Realme and husbandmen of Bethleem sang Allelu ia which S. Augustine saith all nations did yea the Barbarians as well as the Romanes without translating that or Amen into their barbarous languages Hence you collect the seruice alwaies in Latine throughout the West church and paint that note by the side of your booke to make the simple beleeue those places which are found in your text to proue it to be true though not one of theÌ„ whom you cite affirm or mention any such thing Whether this be to vse your owne wordes great ignorance of Iesuites or greater guilefulnes so vntruly and peruersly to wrest the fathers and whether you can be catholikes that haue no better ground for your Latine and vnknowen seruice within this Reame let the Reader iudge Phi. Augustine our Apostle brought into this Realme the seruice in the Latine tongue and there are well neere a thowsand yeares past since he came And therefore S. Bede saith lib. 1. hist. Ang. cap. 1. that being foure diuerse vulgar languages in our Countrie the Latine was made common to them all Theo. You thought it long belike before you made vp the ful dozen of peruerted and misconstered authorities You abuse Bede as you doe the rest and no maruell to see you so bold with him when you haue ventered on so many Phi. Doth he not say this Iland had foure diuerse languages of their owne and the Latine which was the fift was made common to them all Theo. Not by hauing their seruice in Latine but by meditating and searching the Scriptures a number in euery of those foure Nations had gotten the knowledge of the Latine tongue Phi. Then the Scriptures were not in any of those languages and consequently neither the Psalmes nor Lessons which are necessary partes of the Church Seruice Theo. Reason better or hold your peace you doe but wast time about trifles Bedes wordes are Haec in praesenti quinque gentium linguis vnam eandemque summae verâ—tatis verae sublimitatis scientiam scrutatur confitetur Anglorum videlicet Britonum Scotorum Pictorum Latinorum quae meditatione Scripturarum caeteris omnibus est facta communis This Iland at this present searcheth and confesseth one and the verie same knowledge of the hiest veritie and truest sublimitie with the tongues of fiue Nations to wit the Saxons Britons Scots Picts and Latines whose tongue by the meditation of the scriptures is become common to all the rest Meditation of the scriptures in all mens eares saue yours is the diligent and often perusing of them to get the right vnderstanding of them and not the Church Seruice as you would secretly inferre neither doth Bede deny that the Scriptures were hearde or reade in the other foure tongues which were proper to the foure Nations of this Iland but rather affirmeth it when he saith this Countrie searched and confessed one and the very same knowledge of the highest truth with the tongues of fiue Nations foure of them being the British Saxon Scottish and Piâ—tish tongue in which also they searched confessed the knowledge of the true God though the deeper and better learned of them in euery of those Nations for an exacter kinde of meditating and studying the Scriptures gate them some skill in the Latine tongue wherein the Scriptures were more sincerely written and more substantially handled than they coulde bee in any of the other tongues amongest the Saxons Scots or Britons in that raw and rude worlde so soone vppon their conuersion to the faith and long desolation before of learning religion and good manners Phi. The Latine tongue was common to them all Theo. Not to euery particular man amongest them but to some speciall men in those foure Nations that were willing and able to meditate the Scriptures And had it beene common to them al that is to euery one of them as you would presse it that construction helpeth you nothing at al. For then the people of this land being able to meditate the Scriptures in the latine toung might verie well haue their sâ—ruice in the latine tongue because it was a knowen tongue and such as they readily vnderstood but I thinke the other of the twaine the more likely
by their own words to teach more than idle signes or ONLY figures in the Lords supper because together with the name goe the vertâ—es and effects of Christes flesh bloud vnited in manner of a Sacrament to the visible signes And this their assertion neither troubleth our Doctrine nor strengthneth your error Againe these writers may very well say the Sacraments of the Gospell BE NO FIGVRES but TRVETH IT SELFE in that respect as figures bee taken for samplers of things to come Such were the figures of the law which did premonstrat the coÌ„ming of christ in flesh ceased at his coÌ„ming And so the mysteries of the Lords table were not figures of things expected but euidences of the truth there sitting in persoÌ„ the next day to be nailed to the crosse therby to fulfil abolish al figures our sacrameÌ„ts are now not signes of farther promises but memorials of his mercies alredy performed Do this saith christ not in figure of an other truth to come but in remeÌ„brance of me which am come for memorie you know stretcheth only to things past and doone and in this sense the letter may bee safely pressed and your carnall conueyance nothing relieued I find a third cause that might induce them to force the letter in this sort yet no way confirming your grosse supposall which is this When the Greeke church fell at variance for Images they which held that Christ ought not to be figured after the likenes of our bodies amongest other reasons alleadged this for one that the Lord at his Supper for a true and effectuall Image of his incarnation chose the whole substance of bread not any way like the proportion of a man lest it should occasion Idolatry The defenders of Images whose side Damascene tooke pressed with this obiection durst not flee to your annihilation of the substance of bread and adoration of the Sacrament with diuine honour which no doubt they would haue doone with great triumph had those two points of your Doctrine beene then counted catholike but yeelding and by their silence confessing that the substance of bread remayned in the supper and was not adored for so the contrarie part opposed at length for very pure neede came to this shift that the mysticall bread was not ordained to resemble and figure Christs humane nature nor so called by christ at his maundie who said not this is a figure of my body but my body nor a figure of my bloud but my bloud and when Basil and Eustathius were produced affirming the bread and wine to be figures and resemblances of Christs flesh and bloud the Patrones of Images replied that was spoken alwaies before neuer after consecration Wherefore Damascene first beganne this myncing and straining the wordes of Christ not to build on them any reall or corporall conuersion of the bread into the flesh of christ but in fauour of his artifical pictures and Images he could by no meanes abide that the mysteries should after consecration be called Images and figures of Christs bodie The next that traced this path after Damascene was Epiphanius not that auncient and learned Bishoppe of Cyprus but a pratling Deacon in the bastard Councell of Nice whose furious and fanaticall answer to the Councel of Constantinople that made this obiection declareth more tongue than witte more face than learning Christ did not say take ye eat ye the Image of my bodie Reade whiles thou wilt saith hee thou shalt neuer find that either the Lord or his Apostles or the Fathers called that vnbloudie Sacrifice which the Priest offereth AN IMAGE Thus doth he braie foorth defiance to the whole worlde without trueth without shame For Chrysostome saith If Iesus were not once dead whose image and signe is this Sacrifice This Sacrifice is an image and samplar of that Sacrifice And Gelasius Surely the IMAGE and resemblance of the bodie and bloud of Christ is celebrated in the action of the mysteries We must therefore so thinke of the Lord Christ himselfe as we professe and obserue in his IMAGE And likewise Theodoret. Ortho. The mysticall signes which are offered to god by his Priests whereof doest thou call them signes Eranist Of the body blood of the Lord. Ortho It is very well saide Conferre then the image with the paterne and thou shalt see the likenes Dionysius calleth it both an image and a figuratiue sacrifice Nazianzene excusing himselfe How should I saith he presume to offer vnto God that externall sacrifice the image of the great mysteries Clemens Offer you in your churches the image of the royall body of Christ. Macarius In the Church are offered breade and wine the images of his flesh and blood The 〈◊〉 â—aâ—hers keepe the same word the same sense Ambrose In the law was a shadow in the Gospel is an image in heauen is the trueth Before was offered a lambe or a calf now Christ is offred here in an image there in truth where he intreateth his father as an aduocate for vs. AusteÌ„ Christ gaue an image of his burnt offering to be celebrated in the church for a remembrance of his passion The rest say the like but what neede we farther refutation of so ridiculous and vnshamefast a bragge such causes such councels such poppets such Proctors The very children in the church of God knowe that the diuine mysteries by the generall definition of a Sacrament be visible signes of inuisible graces and as Augustine interpreteth the word Sacramentum id est sacrum signum a Sacrament that is a sacred signe So that vnlesse they be signes they can possibly be no sacraments neither sacraments nor signes can they be without or before coÌ„secration which this stout champion had not yet learned therfore his verdict in matters of religion except his cunning were greater may be wel refused As Damasene and your prating Epiphanius were more than 700. yeares after Christ so Theophilact and Euthymius are farre younger The first of them was Bishoppe of the Bulgarians who were conuerted to the faâ—eth 868. yeares after Christ the second your owne chronologie placeth after Gracian and Lombard 1100. yeares short of Christ. Were then these later Grecians wholy with you what gaine you by them If you woulde oppose them to Tertullian Origen Cyprian Austen Gelasius Thedorete others of purer times and sounder iudgements you could winne nothing by that bargaine the choice were soone made which to take which to leaue but in deede you do them wrong to returne them for transsubstantiators they neuer knew what it ment They say the mysteries of the Lords table be not only figures but haue the truth annexed No figures of grace differed but seales of mercy perfourmed in Christ and inioyed of vs no called figures or images of Christes flesh after consecration but bearing as well the names as the fruits and effects of the things themselues whose
thinges though happily the Prophetes did aduise them and persuade them To be directed and aduised by others doth not hinder the Princes authoritie The high Priest among the Iewes had his commission from Gods owne mouth the Pope hath not Deut. 17. The best christian Princes haue followed the steppes of the kings of Iudah God himselfe speaketh and commandeth by the hearts and lawes of Princes August de ciui Dei li. 5. cap. 24. Idem Epi. 166. Ibidem Aug. Epist. 50. Religion the chiefest care that Princes ought to haue Cod. lib. 1. tit 17 de veter iure enucleando § Deo authore Authen constit 6. Codic Theodos. lib. 16. tit 4. de religione § Ea quae Legum nouell Theodos. tit 2. de Iudeis Samaritanis § Inter caeteras Valentinian himselfe was content at length to coÌ„maund for truth Theodoret. lib. 4. cap. 8. Codic lib. 1. tit 6. NesacruÌ„ Baptisma iteratur Euagrius lib. 3. cap. 14. The right faith is the only strength of an earthly kingdom Idem lib. 5. cap. 4. Niceph. dedicatio operis In Greece the Emperours kept this power 1300. yeres after Christ. Ibidem paulo ante Diligent care of Gods causes the surest proppe of a Princes seat A king of this land making lawes for religion a 1000 yeres after Christ. Lege 1. Lege 6. Lege 7. Lege 14 15. Lege 16. Lege 19 21. Lege 22. Lege 26. â—iter politica iâ—ra erusilem Lege 4 6. The weakest of these places proue that Princes meddle with ecclesiasticall causes which they would seeme to â—ray them from by Osiâ—s wordes And consequently their sword stretcheth vnto spiritual things as well as vnto temporal When papists be posed with these places and cannot auoide them they slip to an other question and cauill about the direction of Princes vnto trueth Princes may commaund for all points of trueth as well as for one He that may commaund for trueth may iustly punish for trueth As lawfull for the Prince to punish Idolaters and heretikes as theeues and murderers Both sides graunt that Princes must punish as well spirituall as temporall offences He that wil punish must first prohibit If Princes may punish prohibite that which is euill in matters of religion ergo they may commaund establish that which is good in the same causes August epist. 50. Idem contra Cresconium lib. 3. cap. 51. Papists grant princes may punish for religion but not coÌ„maund yet punishing is a very forcible kind of coÌ„maunding Nothing clearer than that Princes may commaund for matters of religion August epist. 166. Ibidem The word coÌ„maunding which they most auoide is most vsual in the sacred scriptures auncient lawes of Christian Princes Epist. 66. * Nouel constitut 3.5.6.16.37.42.57.58.59.67.77.79.83.109.117.131.132.133.141.144.146 If princes at all may meddle with matters of religion they must needes commaund Or if the Iesuites will not graunt so much let them looke to the places that went before and presently follow They would none of this if they could chose because they hold that Bishops in these cases must command Princes What Osius ment by saying CoÌ„mandâ— vs not in this kinde Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 3. cap. 23. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 28. Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 4. cap. 42. Socra lib. 1. ca. 4. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 27. Idem lib. 1. cap. 38. Theodoret. li. 4. cap. 8. Idem lib. 4. cap. 7. 1. Tim. 3. Cod. lib. 1. tit 6. Ne sanct bapt iâ—eretur Cod. lib. 1. tit 1. Ibidem § nullus Socrat. lib. 5. ca. 7. Gregor epist. li. 4. ca. 78. LeguÌ„ Franciae lib. 1. ca. 76. Ibidem cap. 71. Chalced. Concil actio epist. Theodosii Valentiniani ad Dioscorum The Prince appointeth what Bishops shal be present at the Councell Ibidem Imperatoris epist. ad eund◠§ Diosco reuerendo The Prince maketh the president of the Councel The Prince limiteth who shall haue voyces in the Councell Ibidem Imperatoris commonitorium ad Elpidum Ibidem oratio Martiani ad Synodum Ibidem epist. Euseb. ad Imperator Nouel Constit. 6. § Maxima quidem These commaundemeÌ„ts of Iustinian bound the Bishop of Rome no lesse than other Bishops Ibidem § hanc non pecunijs Ibidem § â— quis auteâ— talis Ibidem § illud etiam definimus Ibidem § sed neque effusas The prince coÌ„maundeth the whole clergie Patriarks Metropolitanes Bishops and the rest whatsoeuer to obserue his ecclesiastical lawes Nouel constit 16. ad finem Constit. 57. Constit. 123. § exigatur autem prius These lawes exteÌ„ded to all prouinces patriarkes Ibidem § prae omnibus autem illud Ibidem § interdicimus autem Ibidem § quis a vero Synodes called for ecclesiastical causes were tied to the Lawes imperiall Ibidem C. ad haec iubemus All Bishops commanded by the Prince Ibidem § Insuper interdicimus Eadem constit § omnibus vero epis Vniust excoÌ„munication punished by the Princes lawes Eadem constit § praeterea si qui. The Courts and consistories of all Bishops Archbishops patriarks limited as well to the Princes lawes as to the Canons No appeal from the Patriark Eadem constit § Clericos auteÌ„ Euagrius lib. 4. cap. 9. Idem li. 5. ca. 6. Idem lib. 5. ca. 5. Cod. lib. 1. tit 3. de epist. cleri C. si quenquam Cod. lib. 1. tit 2. de sacrosactis ecclesiis C. decernimus Osius words if they were not diuersly answered by vs may not controle the perpetuall practise of Christs Church The cunning of the papists in this point is either to belie our doctrine or to slip themselues froÌ„ the question The summe effect of the former allegations authorities for the Princes power Or if they doe not disproue them Apolog. cap. 1. The Iesuites in their Apologie for all their vaunts neuer come neere the princes power which we defend The Princes authoritie as we defend it The Princes supremacie as we maintaine it Neither of these points touched in the Apolog. The absurdities which the Iesuites muster against the Princes supremacie Apolog. cap. 4. sect 21. 1. Cor. 14. 1. Tim. 2. Sect. 22. Epist. 55. Sect. 23. August contra Gaudentij epist. lib. 2. Cap. 25. Sect. 24. Sect. 25. Their absurdities be grounded on their owne dreames not on our doctrine To this that Princes may coÌ„maund for trueth no absurdity can be consequent WheÌ„ Princes coÌ„maund that which is good it is Christ no man els that commaundeth by their mouthes Epist. 166. Ibidem Ibidem Their absurdities must be inferred vppon our assertion if they bring them against vs. May not Christ appoint as well as the Pope what Princes shall commaund To coÌ„maund that which God commaundeth is pietie and no absurditie Supreme as we professe it hath no absurditie consequent to it This misconstering of supreme is the ground of all their absurdities Apol. cap. 4. Sect. 21. Mat. 28. Princes giue no commissioÌ„ but a permission and free libertie without let
prince against prince are nothing to this purpose The defence Cap. 5. Euseb. li. 9. ca. 6. The Armenians were no subiects but consederates Euseb. li. 9. ca. 7. The defence Cap. 5. Warres made for religion It is not enough to proue that some rebelled but this also must be shewed that their rebellion was allowed * Rom. 13. Well they might shut the Church dores against Ethnickes whiles they were at the diuine mysteries but they neuer rebelled nor refused to suffer any punishmeÌ„t that Galerius or others would inflict on theÌ„ Euseb. li. 8. ca. 7.9.10.12 * Euseb. li. 8. ca. 7.9.10.12 * The defence cap. 5. Nazian de lande Basil. Ambros. lib. 5. epist. * Theod. lib. 4. cap. 19. S. Basil would not suffer the people to grow to a tumult for his defeÌ„ce See Nazianzenes funeral oration in the praier of S. Basil. The people offered to saue their Bishop froÌ„ the priuate and intemperate rage of a deputie but not from the Emperour Nazian in laudem Basilij oratio funebr This tumult seemed tollerable and yet S. Basill would not allow it S. Ambrose would not suffer the people of Millan to defeÌ„d him against the Emperour Ambros. epist. lib. 5. epist. ad Marcel 33. Ibidem Pugnare non debeo See the fifth booke and 33. epistle of S. Ambrose for this whole action This casuall disorder was much against the Bishops will yet nothing neere a rebellion Lib. 5. epist 33. * Ibidem Had the Iesuites been in S. Ambrose place they would haue tolde the Emperor an other tale The Defence cap. 5. If the people were afraid to rebell in the primatiue Church what thinke you were the Bishops The defence cap. 5. Theodoret. li. 2. cap. 13. The example of Athanasius Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 13. Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 7. Dama in Pontific Athanasius no rebell Athanasius horribly belâ—ed by the Iesuits Athanasius cleareth himselfe of that which the Iesuits father on him Athanas. ad Imperator ConstantiuÌ„ Apolog. Did this man stirre Constans against Constantius * And Iesuits Athanasius saith it had been madnes to haue done that which the Iesuits say he did Athanas. IbideÌ„ Ibidem How farre the was he from rebelling Be they sober or wel in their wits that not only thinke but openly affirm they may resist and depriue the prince The people of Alexandria were verie seditious Socra li. 7. c. 13. Euag. li. 2. ca. 8. Socrat. lib. 3. cap. 2. lib. 5. cap. 16. li. 7. cap. 13. Euag. lib. 2. cap. 5. 8. Theeues and murtherers far more tolerable than deposers of Princes Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 9. Sozom. lib. 6. Cap. 13. Athanas. euer submitted him selfe when he saw the people inclined to any tumult for his cause Sozom. lib. 8. cap. 18. And so did Chrysostome The Defence cap. 5. Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 17. 30. Sozom. lib. 6. cap. 19. * Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 37. The tumult at Alexandria for the receiuing of Peter and reiecting of Lucius Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 37. The people draue Lucius from his See but not with armes The people might cleaue to their true pastor though the Prince by force had placed an other in his steede That Lucius was expelled from his Bishopricke is confessed but the meane how it was done is not expressed Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 36. Lucius detested for sheding of blood by one that was a conuert of the Saracens The defence cap. 5. Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 18. Niceph. lib. 14. cap. 21. * Theodoret. li. 5. cap. 39. How the Persians were harboured by Theodosius the yonger * Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 18. * Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 18. * Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 20. Can the Iesuits find no difference betweene deposing princes by their owne subiects harboring of strangers by other princes Atticus no subiect to the persian can be no president for subiects Theodosius the Emperor had other good causes to warre vpon the Persian Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 20. Cap. 18. 20. The defence cap. 5. The example of Pope Leo the first Leo. epist. 75. Euag. li. 2. ca. 8. Leo requested the Prince to punish his subiects what is that to the depriuation of Princes Euag. li. 2. ca. 8. It is a glorious thing for a Prince to punish heretikes but not for subiects to rebell against their Prince The defence cap. 5. Gregorie made the like request to the Emperours deputie For 600. yeres after Christ no subiect tooke armes against his prince for any matter of religion Aug. in Psal. 124. If Apostataes were serued obaied by Christians what Princes should be deposed Caus. 11. quaest 13. §. Iulianus The defence cap. 5. What Princes may be excoÌ„municated when The Iesuites finding no example in the Primatiue church where a prince was vrged with armes by his own subiects come to this shift that they might haue doone it though they did it not If the Bishops might haue deposed princes and did not theÌ„ were they permitters increasers of their heresie and tyrannie The defence Cap. 5. The Iesuits slaunder the auncieÌ„t martyrs of christs Church as if they had been willing but not able to resist their Princes Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 22. What oportunities the christians had to distresse Constantius Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 25. Athanas. apolog ad Constant. Socrat. lib. 2. cap. 34. And Iulian. * In Psal. 124. * Socrat. lib. 3. cap. 22. And valens Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 3. Socrat. lib. 4. cap. 35. And Valentinian Paulus Diaconus de gest Romanor lib. 1. And Anastasius Euag. li. 3. ca. 44 Anastasius an heretike offered to resigne his Crowne the people would not suffer him Regard of dutie and the Apostles doctrine kept the primatiue Church from resisting hereticall princes * Rom. 13. Paulus Diaconus de gest Romanor lib. 1. The defence cap. 5. Se. S. Thomas 2.2 quaest 10. artic 10. Rom. 13. Their scroles resolue directly against S. Paul Rom. 13. Luke 20. This is nether pertinent to our question nor any part of their meaning Tertullian ad Scapulam Neuer rebels were christiaÌ„s in the primatiue Church The reasons why ChristiaÌ„s would not resist taken out of their own confessions Tertul. in apologetico Ibidem Christians commanded by God to pray for their Princes though they were persecutors Ibidem See S. Paul S. Peter for obedience to heathen Princes Rom. 13. Tertul. in apologetico Mark what faces the Christians had 200. yeres after Christ. Desolation would haue followed if the ChristiaÌ„s should haue but forsaken the Pagans The Citizens almost all Christians The defence cap. 5. The defence cap. 5. Princes excoÌ„municated depriued for defects in religion An Anti pape Heretical malice No president for the depriuatioÌ„ of princes within a 1000. yeres after Christ. Zonar annal to 3. in imperio Leon. Isaâ—ri Vrspergens in anno 718. Otho Frisingen lib. 5. cap. 18. Sigebert in anno 731. The rebellion of the ItaliaÌ„s against Leo might be the Popes secret practise but he durst not appeare in the
brother Beza In editione anno 1564. The opinion of the congregation art 39. The battaile of Druze The Nobles of France repressed the furie of the Guise the king being vnder age The King had neither age nor Lawe to licence the Guise to murder his people Lâ—x Salica Bezaes iudgement of bearing armes against the Prince out of his own works Beza in confessione fidei Christianae eiusdem cum Papisticis erroribus Collatione cap. 5. sect 45. Ibidem cap. 5. sectio 45. PriuatmeÌ„ may disobay a wicked pâ—ince but not bear arms against him To you Sir slanderer The warres of the FreÌ„ch ministers lewdly peruerted by the Iesuites If the supreme dominion of God be violated by the coÌ„maundement of any prince that precept may bee well disobeied but not the prince displaced Infidels must be obaied so farre forth as their precepts tend not to the dishonour of Gods holie name Mat. 5. The defence cap. 4. The defence of Zuing. lib. 4. epist. Zuing. Oâ—col fol. 186. 4. Reg. 21. Art 42. explan fol. 84. The manifest forâ—es of coÌ„mon wealthes make diuerse men speake diuersly of the magistrates sword Germanie a free state and the Emperors authoritie limited by the Lawes of the Empire The germans proportion their speaches according to the state of their country Zuinglius meÌ„t this of Princes elected limited 1. Sam. 14. 1. Chron. 13. 1. Kings 12. Ierem. 26. God neuer required the people to displace their King but not to consent to his wickednes Explanat articulo 42. Ibidem A tyrant inheriting may not be displaced by Zuinglius opinion Ibidem Princes may neither be murdered nor assaulted with any tumult by Zuinglius iudgement Ibidem Ibidem Succession most vsual in christian kingdomes and allowed by God himselfe Psal. 132. 1. Sam. 13. 2. Kings 10. The defence cap. 4. Goodmans opinion Cap. 14. à pag. 204. ad pag. 212. Goodmans priuate opinion long since corrected by him selfe cannot preiudice the whole realme GoodmaÌ„ did not hold that lawful Princes might be thrust froÌ„ ther Crownes but that Queene MARY was no lawful magistrate The defence cap. 5. The iudgemeÌ„t of the Scottish ministerie Iohn Knokes IbideÌ„ pag. 77. Sleid. lib. 17. Sleid. lib. 19. lib. 21. The defence cap. 4. The opinion and definitioÌ„ of Luther Sled hist. li. 8. Lib. 21. Lib. 22. What Luther taught of obedience to magistrates Sleid. lib. 8. The Gospel doth not bar the politike lawes of any countrie Sleid. lib. 8. The Lawes of the Empire permit resistance Sleid. lib. 18. not the 21. as you quote The states of Germany not subiect to the Emperour but with conditioÌ„ Sleid. 22. This is true in free States but not in absolute subiectes The differeÌ„ce betwene the Ies. the Germanes resistance No law permitteth the Pope to depose Princes but that which is of his owne making The defence cap. 4. The rage of popish persecutors is able to set good men besides their byas There is great diuersitie in bearing armes though we allow none if the lawes of the Land do not warrant the same In some cases the nobles coÌ„mons may stand for the publike regiment lawes of their CouÌ„trie Christian Kingdomes may settle their States with common consent of Prince and people which the Prince alone caÌ„not alter The Princes sword is his law not his lust Princes may be staied froÌ„ tyranny by their owne realms though not deposed Germanie Flaunders Scotland Fraunce The Iesuites forget how often the Italians haue rebelled both against the Emperour against the pope himself in euery nation what dissentions rebellions haue beene before our time The practises of the Iesuits wherewith this land is greeued and displeased These be no pointes of religion but flat treason This easie punishment for twentie yeres sheweth the goodnesse of her dispositioÌ„ and the mildnesse of her regiment This later seueritie the Ies. haue prouoked by their wilfulnesse The Iesuites make rebellion a point of their Catholike faith because they would the sooner infect the people with it Casus conscientiae qui hodie in Anglia occurrunt sacerdotibus comissis artic 55. And if you be asked do you beleeue that the Bishop of Rome may licence you to beare armes against the Queene of England and to kill her if you can what must you answere by this resolution of your but I beleeue he may Till this position be recanted by the Ies. a traitour a Iesuite caÌ„not be sundered Mat. 22. Princes not depriueable by any mortal man Luke 12. Iohn 18. August in Psal 47. Ibidem The Iesuites make the Popes pride a poinct of Christian faith The Popes keyes exteÌ„d not to the goods or laÌ„ds of the poorest subiect in this realme Pastours haue their kind of correction ouer Princes but that is far from depriuation The Pastor cannot force his flock Chrysost. de sacerdot lib. 2. Pastours may not coÌ„straine but only perswade Ibidem Bishops least of al men may correct with force Compulsion neither lawful nor expedient in Bishops Hilar. ad Const. lib. 2. imperfect Bishops may not meddle but with those that be willing Orig. in cap. 13. epist. ad Rom. God will not haue crimes reuenged by the Rulers of the Church but by the Iudges of the world Bishops by vertue of their calling cannot authorize violence or armes Rom. 13. Defendorâ— of the Popes power to depose princes are no Martyrs but hainous traitors The maintainers abettours of this power put to death and none els The defence cap. 1. An. 1583. M. Slade M. Bodie The question of Peters keyes as the Iesuites expound theÌ„ is no religion To subiect the Princes sword or Crowne to the Popes courtes and Buls is treasoÌ„ by our Lawes the rest of his vsurped power is heresie not treason These treasoÌ„s be no trifles August contra literas Petil. lib. 2. cap. 92. No coÌ„spiracie so dangerous as that which possesseth the heart vnder a shew of religion Peters keyes wickedly wrested to commaund the swordes and dispose the crownes of Princes A lewd deceit of the Iesuites to call that religioÌ„ which is none Apol. cap. 4. sect 21. Magdebur in praefat Cent. 7. Cal. in 7. cap. Amos. Bodie said so at Andeuer but he lied the more Apol. cap. 4. sect 21. 1. Elizabethae The statute vpoÌ„ the which they were coÌ„demned Popish Bishops were the first that consented to haue the king called supreme head A plainer stile receiued to auoide offence Supreme head no more blasphemous in the Prince than in the Pope to whoÌ„ the Iesuites giue that stile Caluin mistook supreme by Gardiners wily suggestioÌ„ Caluin in 7. Amos. Cal. Ibidem Steuen Gardiner expounded supreme as if the prince might doe what he would in matters of religioÌ„ without regard of God oâ— his word How Caluine vnderstoode Supreme head Supreme must be referred to peâ—soÌ„s and not to things We giue the Prince no right to bee iudge of religion but power to receiue settle in her realme that which is
good both in doctrine discipline a 1. Sam. 15. b 2. Sam. 22. c Esai 7. d Esai 9. e 1. Cor. 11. f Chrysost. in ca. 4. ad Philip. homil 13. g Idem homil 1. ad Papil Antioch Head of the Church belongeth properly to Christ. Praefat. 7. Centuriae Princes may not be deuisers of new religions We may by our oth serue God not men if their lawes dissent from his We be subiect to Princes in that we must suffer not in that we must obay whatsoeuer they coÌ„maund Apol. c. 4. sect 6. The Iesuites as bold with the ParliameÌ„t as they bee with the Prince Apol. cap. 4. sect 10. God will not be tied to the forme of humane iudgements The Church planted without any iudicial processe Apol. cap. 4. a sect 19. b sect 12. c sect 19. Christ wil not be subiect to the voices of men He hath authority enough that hath God on his side a Ios. 24. b 3. Kings 19. c 3. Kings 22. d Ierem. 23. e Amos. 7. f Mat. 3. g Acts. 5. h 6. i 23. The wicked alwaies asked the godly for their authority Mat. 21. Ioh. 1. Ioh. 1. Acts. 4. He that preacheth the same doctrine which the Apostles did hath the same coÌ„missioÌ„ which they had One man preaching trueth hath warrant enough against the whole worlde Tertul. de virg velandis The whole world drowned for resisting the preaching of one man Whether side hath trueth must be the question the rest is superfluous quareling Apol. cap. 4. sect 21. God must be obaied when he coÌ„maundeth whosoeuer dissent The Iesuites cal it a disorder to obey God before the Bishops Apol. cap. 4. sect 6. The Prince and the Parliament tooke not vpon theÌ„ the decision but the permission protection of trueth Queene Mary by ParliameÌ„t receiued the Pope why might not Queene Elizabeth doe as much for Christ We be bound to the faith of Christ not of our fathers Deut. 32. They be gone from the faith of their first fathers and egerly follow the blindnesse of their later fathers God hath not referred vs froÌ„ his word to our fathers Ezech. 20. Psal. 78. Psal. 95. Zach. 1. Ierem. 11. Ibidem vers 9. Our fathers may erre though his elect can not 2. Tim. 2. Mat. 24. Mark 13. Mat. 24. 2. Thes. 2. Reueâ— 13. All shall erre sauing the elect The elect cannot be discerned of men Mat. 7. To follow the greatest number is most dangerous Mat. 22. Our Fathers sinned and rebelled against God Psal. 106. Dan. 9. 2. Chron. 29. Mat. 3. Acts. 7. Our fathers cannot preâ—udice the trueth of God Luke 16. A parliament taking part with trueth hath the warrant of God the Magistrate Lay men may make their choise what faith they will professe The Prince is authorized from God to execute his commaundement The Iesuites presume that al is theâ—â—s The Prince may commaund for trueth though the bishops would say no. The Iesuites haue neither Gods law nor mans to make that which the Prince and the Parliament did to be voide for lacke of the Bishops assents The Kings of Iudah did coÌ„maund for trueth without Councels 2. Chron. 14. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. Cap. 15. 2. Chron. 29. 4. Kings 22. Christian Princes may doe the like ConstaÌ„tine authorized Christian religion without any Councel Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 2. Iustinian had no Councell for the making of his constitutions But 6. general Councels in 790. yeres Sâ—c lib. 5. ca. 10. Theodosius made his own choise what religion he would establish when the second general councell could not get him to receiue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius did win him to it Theod. lib. 5. cap. 16. Realmes haue bin Christened vpon the perswasions of Lay men weâ—men India conuerted by Merchants * Ruffin l. 1. ca. 9 * And neuer asked the Priestes leaue so to doe * Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 19. Iberia coÌ„uerted by a woman Ruffin lib. 1. cap. 10. The Iesuites would haue beene eloqueÌ„t against this King that yeelded his Realme to Christ at the direction of a seeâ—â—e wenche Any man may serue Christ whosoeuer say nay Many Countries receiued the faith before they knew what the Church â—â—nt Act. 5. If trueth were â—â—ufficient â—â—â—charge for fishermen to withstand both Priests and Princes much more may Princes vpon that warrant neglect the consent of their own subiects though they be Priests Iohn 7. Railing on Princes is prohibited by the Law of God Exod. 21. Leuit. 20. Exod. 22. Eccle. 10. 3. Kings 2. Dauid iudged Shimei worthie to die for railing on him Vincentius Lirinens aduers haeres How Vincentius defineth Catholikes * VinceÌ„s aduers. haeres * Vincent IbideÌ„ Ibidem Quod semper vbique ab omnibus creditum est Worshipping of Images is against the Scriptures It hath not been beleeued at all times Neither in all places nor of all persons * Sigebert in anno 755. Continuationes Bedae anno 792. The Church of England against Images The churches of Fraunce Italie Germanie condeÌ„ned the second councell of Nice Regino lib. 2. anno 794. Hinâ—mar Remens contra Hincmar Iandunensem epist. cap. 20. The Councel of Nice the second refuted by a generall Synode of Germanie A whole book written in the refutation of the 2. Nicene Councell by Charles and his Bishops The Monkes haue razed our Nice and put in Constantinople Vrspergens in anno 793. That Councel was assembled at Nice and not at Constantinople * Tomo Concil 3. admonit Surij ad lector de Synod Francof â—ol 226. * Augu. Steuch de Donat. Constant lib. 2. numero 60. * Adon. aetase 6. Auent lib. 4. saith Scitae Graecoâ—um de adorandis Imaginibus rescissa sunt Their Monks and Friers being worshipers of Imageâ— themselues would not beleeue that the 2. Nicen CouÌ„cel was condemned for decreeing Images to bâ— worshipped The booke extaÌ„t agreeth with this report of Hincmarus The west Church 800. yeares after Christ suffred stories to be painted and carued in the Church but not to be worshipped as the seconde Councell of Nice concluded The Grecians were not so brutish as to decree diuine honour to stockes The west Church refused to giue any externall honor to images Greg. lib. 7. epist. 109. Stories painted in the Church but no picture worshipped * Sinne to worâ—hip pictures Gregor lib. 9 epist. 9. The scriptures prohibite the worâ—hipping of pictures Ambros. de obiâ—â—â— Theodos. Error wickednes to worship the Crosse that Christ died on Aug. de moribus ecclesiae Catholicae lib. â— cap. 34. Bowing and burning incense to the Image of Christ obiected to heretikâ— as Idolatrie August de haeresib haeres 7. Epipha in 80. haeres anacephâ— Epipha lib. 1. â—om 2. haeres 27. Iren. li. 1. ca. 24. The worshiping of Christs Image is idolatrie Exod. 20. Deut. 5. * Ephes. 5. * Phil 3. Bodily or ghostly honor giuen to any thing which God prohibiteth is Idolatrie Exod. 20. God prohibiteth the worshipping of
thousand yeeres after Christ. His lawes made by a Councel of his sages at Winchester are yet extant Heare some of them and then tell vs whether he did meddle with ecclesiastical causes or no. First he commaundeth all men to loue one God for euer aboue all things and one rule of Christian religion wel and aduisedly to hold Item he willeth al men to discharge their functions specially the seruants of god Bishops Abbots Moncks Canons Nonnes to do their duties to liue according to their rules to make their praiers night and day for all Christian folke Item hee biddeth and on Gods behalf forbiddeth that any Christian man take to wife a kinsewoman within six degrees or his wiues kinswoman or his Godmother at the font or a professed Nonne or a diuorced woman or keepe harlots or haue mo wiues than one and that in lawfull mariage Item that holy dayes and fasting dayes be kept Sunday be kept holy from saturday noone till munday morning Fayres Courts huntings and worldly woorkes on that day to bee forborne Item that all fasts which bee bidden ember dayes and Lent bee kept and the feasts of our Lady and the Apostles to bee fasted saue Philip and Iacob euery friday to bee fasted except it bee holy day and no man to fast from Easter to Whitsuntide or from Christmas to the Octaues of the Epiphanie vnlesse hee will or it bee enioyned him Item that euery Christian prepare himselfe for the communion thrise a yere And truely keepe his othe and promise and loue God with an inward reuerence and heare diligently heauenly teachers and oft and many times search and looke on Gods Law his dictrine Item that euery Christian man learne so much that hee can the true fayth and the true vnderstanding thereof namely the Lordes prayer and the Creede Or else not to haue Christian buriall neither to bee admitted whiles he lyueth to the Lordes table nor to vndertake for others at the font or before the Bishoppe Item that Bishops be preachers and teachers of Gods Lawe and carefull followers of goodwoorkes Item that Witches sorcerers Idolaters periures strumpets breakers of order and wedlocke be banished the realme with other Lawes for tythes temples Church rightes trial of Clergie men accused and such like dueties and offences ecclesiasticall Phi. You presse me with a number of places that proue nothing against vs directly Theo. Take the weakest of them and see whether it will not inferre that Princes medled with causes ecclesiasticall Phi. We knowe they medled with them but not as supreme Gouernours of them Theo. I brought these places to refell that generall obiection which you framed out of Osius Leontius and others that Princes shoulde not medle with causes ecclesiasticall If you graunt they did and might lawfully meddle with such matters as the places which I bring do proue then by your owne confession Constantius was not reproued for medling with religion for so did other godly Princes that were not reproued but highly commended and honoured in the Church of Christ but rather he was reproued as I answered you at the first for his insolent and tyrannous kind of medling with these matters which was as I shewed you for that in his owne person hauing no skil nor experience in such cases he would needes end and determine all thinges according to his owne fansie without respect of right or trueth and execute the same with terrible force and rigor exceeding the boundes of all Christian humanitie Againe these later examples as well as the former import that Princes had all this while full power to plant and establish the Christian fayth in their realmes and to punish ecclesiasticall transgressions and disorders in all sorts of subiects Lay men and Clerkes which is all that wee seeke for and all that wee meane when wee make them Gouernours of their dominions in all causes both ecclesiasticall and temporall and since you can neither deny the lawes Edicts nor acts of Princes which wee produce to this purpose nor possibly shift them why doe you wickedly slaunder and malitiously peruert that doctrine which you shall neuer soberly confute Phi. You will haue Princes to bee supreme Gouernours in these cases this is it that wee most impugne Theo. Well then let vs goe by degrees Doe you graunt them to bee Gouernours in those cases Phi. What meane you by Gouernours Theo. Such as haue lawfull authoritie from God to commaunde for trueth and punish error Phi. Doe you make them Iudges and Deciders of trueth Theo. No but receiuers and establishers of it Phi. Yea but who shall tell them which is trueth Theo. That is not this question When wee reason whether Princes may commaund for trueth and punish error you must not cauill about the meanes to knowe trueth from error but suppose that trueth were confessed and agreed on and in that case what may Princes doe for trueth Phi. Mary Sir if trueth were not in strife the doubt were not so great Theo. If I shoulde aske you whether Princes may reuenge murders and punish theftes were this an answere to say but howe shall they knowe what murder is and who bee theeues No more when wee demaunde what duetie Princes owe to God and his trueth shoulde you stand quarelling what trueth is or howe trueth may bee knowen The Princes duetie to God is one question which wee nowe handle the way to discerne trueth from error is an other which anon shall ensue when once this is ended but first let vs haue your direct answere whether Princes may commaunde for trueth or no Phi. For trueth they may but if they take quid pro quo they both hazard them selues and their whole Realmes and for that cause we say they must bee directed by Bishoppes Theo. You slide to the second question againe before the first bee finished Stay for that till this bee tried You graunt that Princes may command for trueth Do you not Phi. Wee doe Theo. When you say they may commaunde for trueth you doe not meane this or that poynt of trueth but indefinitely for trueth that is for all parts of trueth alike without the which God can not rightly bee serued Phi. They may commaunde for all as well as for part if the Bishoppes neede their helpe in all Theo. And commaunding is not onely the free permitting of those that wil but the moderate punishing of those that will not For punishment is the due desert of him that neglecteth the commaundement which he should obey So that he which may iustly commaund may iustly punish and hee that may lawfully punish may certainely commaund Howe say you then may Princes punish for matters of religion Phi. No doubt they may but when and where the Priest must guyde Theo. Who beareth the sworde The Priest or the Prince Phi. The Prince not the Priest Theo. And that sworde which the Prince beareth must doe the deede
them-selues venemous in saying ' Ye vipers brood and Steuen ful of the holy Ghost rated the Iewes on this wise Ye stifnecked and of vncircumcised harts and eares yee haue alwaies resisted the holy Ghost as your fathers did so doe you It is therefore a straunge course that you take to make the people disobey God to follow their fathers and a stranger that you freely permit all kinde of Infidelity and tyranny to your selues vnder the names of your fathers as if the men that were before you could neither erre nor shed innocent blood Phi. What they could we dispute not wee say they did not Theo. That must be proued before you may propose their actes for your imitation Their doings may bee doubted disliked as well as yours so the labor is all one to iustifie theirs and yours Times and persons do not preiudice the truth of God It is permanent in all ages eminent aboue all things If your fathers disdained and pursued the truth as you doe they were enimies to God as you are notwithstaÌ„ding their earthly dignities and other excellencies which may seem precious in your eies but are abominable in the sight of God when men are voide of truth Phi. We are not Theo. Leaue then your fathers and other idle fansies go directly to that question For if her Maiestie receiued established nothing but the truth of Christ in her Parliament in vaine do you barke against God and the Magistrate for lacke of competent Courts ecclesiasticall iudges and legal meanes to debate and decide matters of religion When God commaundeth all humane barres and Lawes do cease If they ioyne with God they may bee vsed if they impugne the trueth they must be despised And yet in our case the scepter vnited and adioyned it selfe to the worde of God and therefore if Princes may commaund for truth in their owne dominions as I haue largely proued they may why should not the Prince hauing the full consent of her Nobles and Commons restoare and settle the truth of God within her Realme Phi. Lay men may not pronounce of faith Theo. But lay men may choose what faith they will professe and Princes may dispose of their kingdoms though Priests and Bishops would say nay Phi. Religion they may not dispose without a Councell Theo. Not if God commaund Phi. Howe shall they know what God commaundeth vnlesse they haue a councell Theo. This is childish wrangling I aske if God command whether the Prince shall refuse to obey till the clergie confirme the same Phi. You may be sure a wise and sober Clergie wil not dissent from Gods precepts Theo. What they will doe is out of our matter but in case they doe to which shall the Prince hearken to God or those that beare themselues for Priestes Phi. In case they do so you neede not doubt but God must be regarded and not men Theo. And hath the Prince sufficient authoritie to put that in â—â—e which God commaundeth though the Priests continue their wilfulnes Phi. There is no councell nor consent of men good against God Theo. Holde you there Then when christian Princes are instructed and resolued by learned and faithfull teachers what God requireth at their hands what neede they care for the backward dispositioÌ„ of such false Prophets as are turned from the truth and preach lies Phi. In England when her Maiestie came to the Crowne it was not so The Bishops that dissented were graue vertuous and honorable Pastours standing in defence of the catholike and auncient faith of their fathers Theo. You say so we say no. Phi. Those be but wordes Theo. You say very right and therefore the more to blame you that in both your bookes do plaie on that string with your Rhetoricall and Thrasonicall fluence and neuer enter any point or prooâ—e that may profit your Reader You presume your selues to haue such apparent right and rule ouer the faith ouer the church ouer christian Princes Realmes that without your consent they shall neither conclude nor consult what religion they will professe Their actes shall be disorders their lawes iniuries their correction tyranny if you mislike them This dominion and iurisdiction ouer all kingdoms and countries if your holy father and you may haue for the speaking you were not wise if you would not claime it but before we beleeue you you must bring some better ground of your title than such magnifical and maiesticall florishes The Prince and the Parliament you say had no power to determine or deliberate of those matters And why so You did dissent May not the Prince commaund for truth within her Realme except your consentes be first required and had May not her highnesse serue Christ in making Lawes for Christ without your liking Claime you that interest and prerogatiue that without you nothing shal be done in matters of religioÌ„ by the lawes of God or by the liberties of this realm By the lawes of the Land you haue no such priuilege Parliamentes haue bin kept by the king and his Barons the clergie wholy excluded and yet their actes and statutes good And when the Bishops were present their voices froÌ„ the conquest to this day were neuer negatiue By Gody law you haue nothing to do with making lawes for kingdoms and commonwealthes You may teach you may not command Perswasion is your part compulsion is the Princes If Princes imbrace the truth you must obey them If they pursue truth you must abide them By what authority then claime you this dominion ouer Princes that their lawes for religion shal be voide vnlesse you consent Phi. They be no iudges of faith Theo. No more are you It is lawfull for any Christian to reiect your doctrine if he perceiue it to be false though you teach it in your churches and pronounce it in your councels to be neuer so true Phi. That proueth not euery priuat mans opinion to be true The. Nor yet to be false the greater number is not euer a sure warrant for truth And Iudges of faith though Princes be not yet are they maintainers establishers and vpholders of faith with publike power positiue lawes which is the pointe you now withstand Phi. That they may doe when a councell is precedent to guide them Theo. What councell had Asa the king of Iudah when hee commaunded his people to doe according to the law and the commaundement and made a couenant that whosoeuer would not seeke the Lord God of Israell should be â—laine Phi. He had Azariah the Prophet Theo. One man is no Councel and he did but encourage and commend the King and that long after he had established religion in his realme What Councel had Ezechiah to lead him when he restored the true worship of God throughout his land and was faine to send for the Priestes and Leuites and to put them in minde of their duties What councell had Iosiah