Antiquitie we shall make the Church a brothell of filthie and abominable errours which before was a Temple of chaste and vndefiled veritie where as the Church of Christ should bee a diligent keeper of the doctrine deliuered to it changing nothing diminishing nothing adding nothing Now these are the words of Vincentius and I demand of you out of the light of your conscience if you can gaine-say them R. In truth it is a pretie discourse and I embrace all that he hath said as a truth C. Aduise you thâ—n yet what yee wil say for the Church of Rome since it can not bee denied they haue changed diminished and added to the ancient Catholicke faith Some ceremonies and opinions they haue which Antiquitie knewe not some the ancient Church had which they haue pared away and in a word haue so change that in Rome is nothing anciâ—nt but the name R. That seemes very hard For though in some ceremonies there bee adding paring and chaunging yet I can not thinke it is in substance C. You are farre deceiued for they haue made a change in the substance R. Wherein C. In the maine point of saluation as now among many I will shew you by this one What Diuinitie is this to teach people to pray that God would bring them to Heauen by an other blood then Christs blood R. O that can not be C. Nay maruaile not there is the Prayer of their owne Masse booke Tu per Thomae sanguinem quem ille pro te pendit fac nos Christe scandere quò Thomas ascendit R. I haue not heâ—rd of that for my owne part I would bee loath to chaunge the blood of the couenant or to disgrace it so farre as to ioyne any other with it C. The more wise are you for it is by Christs blood Onely that reconciliation is made But what thinke yee of confidence should wee put considence in any but in God R. No truely C. What a Prayer is this theÌ„ Inua ergo omnes gentes In te Sancte confidentes Confessor Armigile And is not Prayer thinke you and Inuocation a speciall point of Gods seruice R. So it is C. Why then is it giuen to Saints and that Psalter which containes Prayers praises to God all turned ouer to the Virgine Marie Should mens traditions to whome God by his heauenly oracle hath not borne testimonie be receiued Pari pietatis affectu reuerentiâ with like deuotion and reuerence as the word of God R. Who sayes that C. The Councell of Trent Should the foure Councels bee receiued as the foure Euangelists or should the Canon Law and decretall Epistles bee receiued as Canonicall Scripture R. I know not what that is C. Then I will tell you Twelue hundreth yeares after Christ Gratian a Benedictine Monke gathered together the sentences of Councels Fathers and Popes concerning sundrie matters of Religion and set it forth which is commonly called Decretum and after him certain Popes as Gregory the ninth Boniface the eight Clemens the fift Iohn the twentie two following the example of Gratian haue gathered the like These are called Decretals and Extrauagants added to Decretum all of them make vp the Canon law which now must bee equalled with the word and all to bee receiued as if Peter his owne mouth had pronounced them Is not this against the golden rule of Vincentius to mixe noueltie with Antiquitie What say you to it R. In truth I can not iudge of that which I know not C. I will giue you but one Decrete of this law and let you see how it strikes the Apostle S. Paul in the teeth that by it you may iudge of the rest Secundam accipere vxorem secundùm Apostoli praeceptum licitum est secundum autem veritatis rationem verè fornicatio est Second marriage â—ccording to the Apostles precept is lawful but according to the truth of reason is plaine fornication I am not now to dispute whether Church-men may Marrie or not themselues grant it is not forbidden neither by Legall nor Apostolicall authoritie yet they will forbid it But what Diuinitie is this According to the Apostles precept it is lawfull to Marrie but according to truth and reason it is Whoredome that is as they would saye according to the word of God in the Bible it is true but according to the word of God in the Canon Law written twelue hundreth yeares after Christ it is false Did the Apostle giue any precept without reason or truth How dare they call that vnlawfull which the Apostle cals lawfull Wâ—e be to them who call good euill You hold silence at these things and no maruaile for I thinke no honest man can approoue them But to return to things of great importance I assure you the onely question and controuersie in Religion this day may be taken vp in this question Is Iesus the Sonne of Mary the Christ Or as the Baptist takes it vp Art thou hee who is come or shall wee looke for an other R. I thinke no man will denie that C. Yea the Turke and Pagane say such Christ as Christians beleeue is neither come nor wil come the Iewes say hee is not come but hee will come The Catholicke Romane in word confesseth him but in deede denies him Quem praedicant impugnant both in his Person and Offices R. That is a strange assertion such as I haue not heard C. It is strange indeede and I would wee had no cause to charge them with it but beecause it is the most weightie point whereof yet wâ— haue spoken wee will referre it to bee handled in a meeter time R. I am content prouiding you forget not to make that good which you haue said C. If I forget I pray remember me And now this Dispute about Antiquitie I conclude with IGNATIVS Mihi antiquitas est Iesus Christus cui non obedire manifestus est irremissibilis interitus Epist. ad Philadelphos My Antiquitie is Iesus Christ to disobey him is manifest and remedilesse destruction and with that which Aâ—gustine said to the Pelagians Quia isti disserunt disputant nescio quas impias nouitates etiam nos conantur arguere quòd aliquod nouum dicamus Because these fâ—llowes maintaine certaine impious nouelties they also goe about to charge vs as if wee did teach any new thing But of this if you please you shall heare more R. It pleaseth me very well I shall attend your comming if you may at seuen howres C. Let it be so THE SECOND DAYES CONFERENCE Concerning the Antiquitie of the Church of SCOTLAND and how the Church of ROME in her best estate was but a sister not a mother Church vnto it C. WHat say you to day Sir haue you considered the points of our last conference R. Yea I haue beene as I may thinking vpon them C. What Is not your heart mooued to come to vs R. I find it mooued but not remooued from the Church
〈…〉 SEVEN DAYES CONFERENCE BETWEENE A CATHOLICKE CHRISTIAN AND A CATHOLICKE ROMANE Concerning some Controuersies of RELIGION By William Cowper B. of Galloway AVG. DE CIVIT DEI LIB 20. CAP. 19. Qui non credunt veritati Iudicati seducentur seducti iudicabuntur LONDON Printed by W. S. for Iohn Budge and are to be sold at his Shop at the South doore of Paules and Britaines Bursse 1613. TO THE MOST SACRED CHRISTIAN TRVELY CATHOLICKE And mightie Prince IAMES King of Great Britaine France and Ireland defender of the Faith c. SIR Hauing procreate not without some paine and labour this little Treatise when I bâ—gan to view it I perceiued by the sirst face countenance thereof that of it felfe willingly it made retreate to your Highnesse for protection being in effect no other thing in regard of the matter but a surcle of that stocke or birth of that Booke whereof your Highnes is the Parent although the maner of handling it be so base and vnpolished as that it bewrayes it selfe altogether vnlike any thing proceeding from your Highnesse Yea also farre inferiouâ— vnto it to vse the words of Clâ—mens Alexandrinus which he borrowes from Plato comparing the giftes of Kings with other mens as Brasse or Iron is inferiour to Golde or siluer For there your Maiestie hath â—reated the present controuersies of Religion with such Learning as in a Prince may be admired seasoned with such loue and mildnesse of Spirit as might mooue them who are contrarie minded if they were not drunken with the Cup of the Whoore of Bâ—bâ—l and so had lost iudgement and vnderstaÌ„ding to acknowledge that it is no turbulent humor but the power of trueth no desire of contâ—ntion but the loue of all mens saluation hath carried your Maiestie vnto it So hath it pleased God to be fauourable to this I le and by your Maiestie to blesse vs that there neâ—des not now a Iustiâ—e nor a Terâ—ulliâ—n to write Apologies of our Christian faith to any Antoninus or any other such like Impie pio Imperaâ—ori wee haue a most Christian King a pâ—ofessour of the Gospell withâ— vs a protector of vs with it a Semi-martyr an Abimelech A Father King an other Salomon a Coheleth such a king as is a Preacher of that truth whereof his Highnesse is professor whose Palaces and Tables are as was said of the Courts of Theodosius iunior Schooles of Diuinitie wherein ignorants are instructed Apostates conuerted good Christians daily confirmed and as if this were yet too little an open coÌ„fessor before the world a publicke patrone of the truth by Apologies learnedly penned whereby his Highnesse reacheth to these to whome by speech hee can not attaine and so makes the light of the Gospell shine to other Princes of the World who as yet mislike it onely because they misknow it Neither can it be told whether your Highnesse indeuour to propagate the truth of Christian Religion among such as haue it not or to conserue it where it is already embraced be greater the care of all the Reformed Churches in Europe after a sorte lying vpon your Highnesse By your Authoritie they are protected by your Learning instructed by your Pietiâ— coÌ„firmed by your Highnesse wise godly and peaceable Councell vnited where the sire of vnnecesâ—ary contentioÌ„ is subtilly kindled by Sathan for disturbance of the Church and disgrace of the Gospel By your Highnesse prouidence happily spâ—edely and wisely it is quenched the benefit whereof the Churches both of Fraunce and and Flanders lately haue found and thankes God and your Maiestie for it And if yet any further proofe of your Highnesse most intire affection toward Christ and his câ—use bee required of any man May hee not see your Maiestie willingly bearing Babels indignation for Ierusalems sake Are not their raylings threatnings contradictions treasonable imaginations patiently suffered for Christes sake Is their not a sensible losse sustained for the Gospels sake Is not alliance with Labans house for Religions cause preferred to the friendship of the most puissant Princes of Canaan But yet what speake I of losse since losse for Christs sake can not bee not indeede what seemes a losse shaâ—l bee found a vantage for Where the wayes of man please the Lord he shall make his enemies his friends euen Mamre Eschol and Aner Abimelech and his Captaine Phicol Princes of Canaan shall sue to Abraham for friendship and seeke to bee in couenant with him becausâ— they see that God is with him in all that he does And if yet Ieroboam with his complices will be enemies to Dauids Kingdome then hath your Maiesty in readinesse the answere of Abâ—ah vnto them With you indeede is the multitude but with it yee haue the golden Calues which you haue made for your gods and shall be your destruction but wee belong to the Lord our God and behold this God is with vs as a Captaine and his seruants with sounding Trumpets to crie an Alarum against you For God from aboue hath indued your Highnesse with his heauenly wisedome which â—ath this annexed promise Exalt her and shee shall exalt thee shee shall bring thee to honour if thou embrace her The Lord shall be thine assurance and hee shall preserue thy soote from falling And with this great benefit of pure Religion we enioy vnder your Highnesse most happie Gouernment there is conioyned such a peace as no age heretofore hath affoorded no care of any Prince could effectuate for now by your Highnesse authoritie the most Rebellious people are made peaceable and the Scepter of Christ is reuerenced there where all sorts of violence rapine murther villanie did raigne before so that now to your Maiestie most iustly belongs that pâ—â—ise which of olde was giuen to Constantine and written in his triumphall Chariot Liberator vrbis sundator quietis Or which Nazianzen gaue to Olympius O negotiorum arbiter publicarum rerum corrector vtrunque tiâ—i diuinitus concessum qui etiam hoc pietatis praemium acceâ—isâ—i vtres tibi ex animi sententia fluant soâ—usque ea assequi possis quae omnibus alijs negata sunt Prudentiae enim sortitudinis ductu imperium administras quarum altera quae facienda suâ—t excogitat altera quod excogitatum est facile exequitur huc quod maximum est accedit manus puritas integritas qua omnia reguntur An arbiter and decider of difficult controuersies a corrector of the publicke State and both of these â—re committed to your Highnesse of God from whome your Maiestie hath receiued also this reward of piety that matters succeed vnto your Highnesse according to your hearts desire and your Highnesse onely hath attained to do that which is denied vnto others And which yet is most of all hereunto is ioyned the puritie and integritie of your hands whereby all things are ruled Your Highnesse hath not liued like an Achabâ— to spoile any Naboth of his Vineyard nor like a Manasseh to defile
of Christs ordinance and by their owne confession a plaine departing from Antiquitie What thinke you of this one instance R. I will aduise vpon it C. Doe so but I pray you fight not against the cleare light and remember that all bee it the Doctours of your Church pretend alwayes Antiquitie Antiquitie the â—athers the fathers yet this one instance among a hundreth prooues them to bee fathers oâ— nouelties what say yee Tell me like yee to heare any more of Vincentius R. I am content but let mee know â—irst what writer hee is and whose Translation is that C. He was a French-man he writ this Treatise in the fiue hundreth yeare of Christ and heere it is Translated by Ninian Winzet a Masse-priest of the Church of Rome which yee cannot refuse R. Reade on what sayes he further C. There is a commaund giuen to Timothie Deposâ—um serua which in all good reason should binde his successors Thus hee expounds it Keepe that which is committed to thee not that which is inuented by thee which thou hast receiued not which thou hast imagined wherein thou art no Author inuenter sorger but a keeper not a Law-maker but a Law-keeper not a guide but a follower saue that which is giuen thee saue the talent of Catholick faith vnbroken vncorrupt what thou hast receiued render it againe if thou hast receiued Gold render Gold againe slippe not in one thing in stead of an other for Gold lay not downe lead nor brasse R. I heare all that and I thinke hee writes like a sound Diuine C. Then take heedâ— the Apostle protests he dâ—liuered that to the Corinthians which hee had receiued from the LORD IESVS R. I know that C. Hee commanded Timothie and all others his successors in the worke of the Ministerie to doe the like R. And good reason so they should C. Then there is the point How is it that the Church of Rome takes on her this libertie to doe otherwise R. Wherein doe they otherwise C. Haue you forgot so soone Saint Paul deliuered to the people as wel the Cup as the Bread because hee receiued it from Christ Iesus how is it then that the Church of Rome takes away the Cup from the people R. Why May not the Church make Lawes C. No such Lawes as derogate to Christs Lawes for in that sense you heard Vincentius denie that they are Law-makers but Law-keepers I pray you giue place to the truth and consider how little cause they haue to bragge of Antiquitie who dare make the like of that Albeit Christ and his Apostles and the Primitiue Church did this yet we for good causes will doe othâ—rwayes R. Alway that is but one â—oint C. But seeing you cannot denie but they haue broken and corrupted the auncient Catholicke faith in one point you haue the lesse cause to beleeue or defend them in the rest vnlesse you wil incurre Gods curse threatned on them that pares or addes to his word R. The Lord saue me from his curse C. Amen but pray first that the Lord would saue you from the sin that deserues his curse R. God grant it C. And so I wish from my heart it may be But I pray you consider as in one Sacrament you are guiltie of sacrilegious paring so in both you are guiltie of sacrilegious adding and changing and so cannot â—schew the curse if you abide in Communion with the Church of Rome that now is R. How So C. As yee haue taken Wine from the Bread so yee haue added Water to the Wine which is a new inuention and forgerie albeit your Doctours to excuse it cast it on Alexander the first yet it is certain it was not in Christs institution and by your owne confessions was brought in many yeares after Christ and so should bee reiected as a noueltie R. That is but a smal thing and there may be many reasons to excuse it C. No not one Let no man bee wiser then God Who dare adde to the ordinance of Christ But you haue done worse in Baptisme adding Spittle Oyle and Salt to the element of Water was this done by Christ or his Apostles You father the Oyle vpon Siluester but confesse it was not vsed in the Church in Baptisme before him and so it is an other ancient noueltie R. It may bee they haue thought good to vse these for reasons and respects which I know not but this pertaines not to the substance of Baptisme and can not annull it C. I graunt they doe not annull Baptisme yet are they inexcusable who in the smallest thing dare alter the institution of Christ Are not his Sacraments the Seales of his couenant R. I confesse they are C. Why then since it is treason to pare or adde any thing to the forme of the Princes Signet is it not Sacrilegious boldnessâ— to pare or adde to Christs Sacrament But least you should thinke the controuersiâ— onely to bee about these things you shall know that except the Article of the Trinitie the Church of Rome hath left no Article of our Faith vncorrupted so that it is most certaine This Church of Rome with the doctrine and iurisdiction nowe maintained by her was not in the Primitiue Church R. O but I wil tell you what I once heard concerning that matter from one of their Doctors That there is a great difference betweene a Church in her infancie and her older and riper age For as it growes in age so may it and should it increase in many things which it had not in the infancie thereof C. Nowe I see you speake from such knowledge as the great labours of the Iesuites workes in the hearts of their captiues and because it is your last and greatest defence I will let you still see out of the words of Vincentius which you will like better then mine that this makes nothing for you R. Come on let vs see what sayes Vincentius C. He grants There should be an encrâ—ase in Faith but not a change of Faith R. That is a strange distinction and yet so honest that in truth I dare not gaine-say it C. Heare him then hee expounds the two parts of his distinction To encrease saith he is when a thing biding in it selfe is more amplified To change is when a thing going out of it selfe is translated turned into an other To make this cleare hee illustrates it by a proper similitude Let sayes hee the Religion of soules follow the nature of bodies which albeâ—t in processe of yeres they grow yet they remaine the same the same members the same Ioyntes are in Children which are in Men though in the one stronger and greater in the other smaller and weaker but if the shape bee turned in any forme not of the owne kind or any thing bee eked to the number of the members or taken from the same then either the body perisheth or becomes monstrous or at the least becomes weake So in Religion if wee shall begin to mixe noueltie with
the Scripturs conformable to the doctrine of our teachers I was greatly therin confirmed for these are the two great proppes of our faith which Vincentius giues vs against all heresie cap 2. R. You haue reason for you for if your Doctrine be so warranted both by diuine authority of God in his word and humane testimony of the best Doctors of the ancient Church they are to bee iudged most vnworthy that make contradiction to you C. Well that I may bee as good as my word there they are I leaue them with you that you may reade them at your owne leasure R. I thanke you for them and because I am not to tarrie in this Towne let met haue I pray you a copie of them with mee that I may reade theÌ„ at leasure C. So long as you are in the Towne you may bee doing otherwise if occasion serue you not as soone as I can prouide a copy of them for my self I shall send you this to any place you please to appoint R. Let it bee so and I shall God willing put you in mind of it THE SIXTH DAYES CONFERENCE Wherein an other Question commonly obiected by the Aduersaries is answered Seeing you cannot denie that your fathers were Papists what thinke you are they all damned or not And if they be not damned why may not we be of their Religion R. WElcome yet Sir I see you are not wearie to take paines with me C. No in truth it is no paine but pleasure vnto me if by any meanes I may be an instrument to doe you good R. I thanke you for it Now what say you to our Question Are all our fathers damned Or â—f not may it not serue vs to be â—f their Religion C. That is but a subtile queâ—tion wherâ—by Iesuites drawe â—imple people to a liking of Papistrie because forsoâ—tâ— some â—f their fâ—thers liued and dyed in it as they alledge R. And why thinke you it not a good reason C. Not indeede â— for some times I find GOD forbids his people to be as their fathers were where our Fathâ—rs haue forsaken the Religion of the fâ—rst Fathers wee should not follow them R. That was sufficiently cleared in our first Conference C. It was so yet you force mee to remember it But now before I come to the point I will tell you a prettie Storie I haue read concerning this matter R. Let mee heare it I pray you C. I read that a certaine Duke of Frisland named Raboldus about the yeare of our LORD nine hundreth being perswaded as hee pretended to embrace Christianitie as he went to bee baptized and had the one of his feet in the water he demanded of the Bishops If all his Forefathers were damned the Bishops answered more rashly then wisely they were all damned whereupon the Duke pulled backe his feete againe saying Then I will also bee damned with them Thinke you this a good answere R. No indeede I thinke it a mad answere C. Yet the same is the poyson wherewith your Iesuits subtilly infect the hearts of simple ones that they should rather choose to be damned with their Fathers thâ—n saued without them R. But will you say to vs as these Bishops said to him That all our Fathers are damned C. Nay that wil I not iudgement of election and reprobation pertaines to the Lord their persons I leaue but the doctrine of Papistrie I am sure is deadly and bringes damnation to the soules of men R. Then you will not giue iudgment of their persons C. No indeed for as to their persons I know many this day are so called who know not the Doctrine of Papistrie and as to them who haue liued before vs howsoeuer in their life they professed Papistrie yet in their death they were forced to seeke comfort in our Religion R. That is strange that you will say many of our Fathers died in your Religion C. Yet it is true as I will let you see by a little forme of visitation of the sicke vsed at that time when Antichrists darkenesse was greatest to wit in the eleuenth hundred yeare for so the Church-men spake to the sicke Fateris te â—am malè vixisse vt meritis tuis paeâ—â— aeterna â—ebeâ—tur Doest thou not acknowledge that thine euill life dâ—serues eternall dâ—ath The diseased answered Eâ—iam yeâ— The other still inquired Paenitet â—e horum Repentest thou thâ—se sinnes The other answered Etiam yea I doe still he inquireâ— Credis quò◠pro te mortu â—s â—â—t dominus Iesus Beleeuest thou that Iesus died for thee and that thou canst not bee saued but by his death The other answeres I doe so indeede Then concludes the Preacher this way Age ergò dum in te superest anima in hâ—c solâ mortetotam fuluciam tuam constitue in nullâ aliâ re habe as fiduciam huic mortitoâ—um te committe hac solate totum contegne hâc morte tetotum inuolue Et si dominus deus voluerit te iudicare dic Domine mortem domini nostri obijcio inter me tuum iudicium aliter tecum non contendo Goe to then so long as thy Soule is in thee in this onely death of Christ place thou thine whole confidence trâ—st not in any other thing commit thy selfe altogether vnto this death with this death only couer thy selfe in it onely inuolue thy selfe And if the Lord God will iudge thee then say to him O Lord I haue nothing to lay betwâ—ene me and thy iudgement but the death of the Lord Iesus otherwise I contend not with thee See you not here first that they warned their people to prouide for themselues so long as they are in the body and feede them not with a vaine hope as the Romish Doctors doe their people For the present they send them to a place they call Purgatorie but promise to bring them againe out of it they first suffering paines there and either themselues or their frinds making due payment for them on Earth R. In good sooth that is a comfortlesse and I may say a cousning kind of doctrine C. Wel see you not againe a renouncing of all other merites and of all satisfactions to bee made by suffering the paines of Purgatorie or otherwise And thirdly see you not that the Pastor teacheth and the people professeth a sure confidence no dubitation in Christs bloud onely R. I see that clearely C. Then I say these men might well die wâ—th the name of Papistâ— but they died not with the doctrine of Papists for they renounced all meâ—ites both their own and any others and onely rested vpon the meriâ—es of Christ. R. But what will you say of them who haue died with all the opinions of Papistrie C. I will answere that as Cyprian answered the like when it was demanded of him An damnatâ— sunt maiores nostri qui hunâ— vel illum articulum non intellexerunt Were all our Fathers damned who vnderstood not this or that Article of faith he answered