Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	church_n	true_a	visible_a	7,129	5	9.3865	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88157	An answer to nine arguments. Written by T. B. Wherein is plainly from the scriptures shewed, the weaknesse of his arguments, whereby he undertakes to prove both the Church and Ministry of England true; as likewise describing the nature and properties of a true Church and Ministry. Written long since by that faithfull servant of God and his countrey, John Lilburne Lieftenant [sic] Collonell: and now published for further good, by a well-willer to him and the truth.	Lilburne, John, 1614?-1657.	1645 (1645)	Wing L2081; Thomason E25_7; ESTC R212845	46,842	48

that passed Censure upon that Worthy man Dr. Bastwicke at his Censure in the High-Commission Court who there Blasphemously affirmed that the Scripture is the Refuge of all Heretiques and Sismatiques as you may read at large in the Tenth and Eleventh Page of his Answeare to Sr. John Bankes his Information and I beleeve your Friend that gave you these Arguments thinkes so too or else he would have proved that which he had undertaken by the Authority of the Sacred Word of God But Antichrists Owles love and desire Darknesse and cannot endure to bring their sayings and actions to the unerring Touch-stone of the Holy Scripture and there to try them whether they be drosse or Gold for he that doth or saith evill hateth Divells Institution and Invention with which the Limbs of the Beasts Kingdome have for many hundred yeares together and still doe fight against the trueth of God and the Kingdome and Scepter of the Lord Jesus Christ And therefore I exhort you and all those that desire to feare God and walke in his wais and love the Salvation of their owne Souls to take heed of such an Erronious Sophister as your supposed Freind is that gave you these Arguments But because I heare he doth bragge and boast that none of the Seperation dare come to particulars but only run upon generals therefore to prove him a falsifier of the knowne trueth and also a lyar I leave my generall speech to you and come to the unfolding and ripping up every particular in all his Arguments Therefore to my Opposite I direct my speech And in the first place you say You have sent her your Friend those Arguments which doe prove your Mother the Church of England to be a true Mother To which I answear she is a true Whorish Mother and you are one of her Base-begotten and Bastardly Children for you know a Whore is a woman as truly as a true wife and she may have Children as proportionable as the Children of a true wife yet this doth not prove her Children which are Base-begotten are true-begotten Children because they have all the parts and Limbs of Children that are begotten in a true married Estate and condition even so say I the Church of England neither is nor never was truly married joyned or united to Jesus Christ in that Espousall bond which his true Churches are and ought to be but is one of Antichrists Nationall Whorish Churches or Cities spoken of Rev. 16.19 united joyned knit to the Pope of Lambeth as Head and Husband thereof being substitute to the Pope of Rome from whom he hath received his Arch-Episcopall Power and Authority as you may read in the beginning of Godwins Catalogue of Bishops and in the last Page of Francis Masons Epistle Dedicatory to George Abbot William Lauds Predicessour in his booke of Bishops Priests Deacons Againe you confesse the Church of England is a Scratched and Deformed Mother in some respects which you could wish were reformed and removed from her To which I reply she is a Whorish Mother and that is Deformity inough for though a Whore be never so personable and Compleat a Woman in all outward respects yet if she be a Whore there is Deformity inough in that alone to spoyle all her personall Comlinesse and parts But it is much you will confesse your Mother is Scratched and deformed in some respects seing in your ensuing Arguments you say you have the true matter of a Church and true Forme true Salvation true Religion and true Worship but if you have all these it is a wonder to me wherein her Deformity can be therefore I pray you the next time nominate and particular your Mothers Deformities that I may know them by your owne confession But put the case I should deny as justly I may that you have neither true matter true Forme of a visible Church nor true Religion nor true Worship I doubt I should so perplex you to prove it that all your Sophisticall decievable Logisticall Philosophicall Arguments would be to scant to make it good but I let it alone in this place and referre it to the ensuing discourse where it will come in more pertinent But if you could wish your Mothers Deformities were removed then why doe you not tell her of them and labour to discover them unto her that so her Deformed Face may be made strait and Comly truly in my judgement you are but a very unnaturall and unloving sonne that sees your Mothers Deformities and wishes they were removed from her and yet will not strive to your utmost as is your duty to purge her from them that she may be instead of a deformed Mother a wholl and beutiful Mother Againe in the Third place you say That your Labour may be effectuall to your Friend you would have her to observe these five things 1 Rightly to apprehend the trueth of your Arguments 2 To hold her thoughts largely upon them 3 To strive to beleeve them 4 That she should strive to remember the danger that will follow the neglect of them 5 That she should goe to God by Prayer to make them effectuall to her for her good For the answearing of which in the first place You would have her rightly to apprehend the trueth of your Arguments But how can she apprehend trueth in those Arguments that have nothing but falsity in them as by Gods assistance I shall make it appeare in my ensuing discource and if she should apprehend the trueth of them indeed she may justly say thus much of them that they are all Sophistry and ungrounded Arguments being destitute of any Authority from the holy Scriptures 2. In the Second place You would have her hold her thoughts largly upon them Truly if she should doe so she should exceedingly wrong her owne Soull for will you have her put Confidence in the broken Reeds of Egipt which will pierce and runne into her hand when she most trusts to them but such are all your Arguments being no better then Bulrushes which the Two-edged Sword of Gods Word at one blow will cut them all in pieces and if she have no better Weapons to defend her felfe with then these she may come to beundon by them by being more strenghtened confirmed in Errour and so lie open and liable unto Gods heavy Judgments Plagues and Vengence which he hath threatned to pour downe in aboundance upon all those that worship the Beast Rev. 14.9.10 and this is the Beast that she shall get by keeping her thoughts largely upon them and therefore her safest course is to compare them with the infallible Word of God by which she shall see it is her duty to keepe her thoughts upon them as litle as she can least she pay too deere for her so doing Rev. 19.20 3. In the third place You would have her to beleeve them I pray tell me whether you have the Spirit of God infallibly that you cannot erre in that which you say that you

made it manifest Well now to come to your fift Argument which is thus framed If the Church of Engl. have the true matter and forme of a true Church then it must needs be a true Ch. But the Ch. of Engl. hath the matter forme of a true Church Ergo. It is a true visible Church Ans 5. I Answer if it had the true matter forme of a true visible Church then ti were true indeed for these are both and only essentiall to the being of a true Ch. but I say you want them both But you for to prove it say that the matter of a true Ch. is a company of men and that you have and you say the Forme is a profession of true Religion truly you bewray the blindnes and ignorance of a man whse braines and understanding is infatuated and made drunke with the spirituall cup of fornication of the scarlat whore not in the least understanding what you say and affirme yet to answer your Arg. though I grant that where true matter and true forme is there is a true Church yet I absolutely deny that you have either true matter or true forme which you say you thinke none will deny so that the begging of things and takeing that for granted which I deny and which you are never able to prove is the best ground you have to prove your false Arg. true But now for the matter of a true Ch. you will have it to be a company of men making no distinction but let them be what kind soever they will serve it seemes to be true matter in your ch whether they be a company of men possessed with Divels and uncleane spirits from whose mouth Christ will owne no confession nor service but absolutely commands them to hold their peace and not to take his name in their mouthes to speake of him Mar. 1 s 25.34 oa whether they be Inchanters Sorcerers or diviners or wether they be whoremongers fornicatorss Idolaters adulterers drunkards swearers blaspheamers prophane persons lyars or those that commit the sin against the holy ghost so they be but men let them he what kind of men they will you say they are fit matter for a true church indeed I confesse they are the fittest matter for your church that you can have and your church is made up and doth consist of all such sorts kinds of wicked persons which doth evidently and undenyably prove it to be an Antich Ch. and one of the nationall Citties that is under the government of the Beast for he is said to compell all as you doe both rich and poor high low bond free to become his servants subjects and to worship him according to his lawes and whosoever will not shall not live neither in peace nor quietnes Rev. 13.15.16 and this is the practice of your Church daily and hourly for the most unfittest matter for your Churches are the Consciencious Saints that desire to glorifie God as well in their Bodys as in their S●ules and to walke unblameably in all his waies and if there be any such among you they are cast out of your Synagogues by you and prohibited either to buy or sell with you though such as these alone be the only true and fit matter for the visible Church or Kingdome of Jesus Christ Esay 35.10 51.11 Jer. 4.5 Act. 1.14.15 2.41.47 11.21.23 Rom. 1.7 1 Cor. 1.2 1 Pet. 2.9 Rev. 22.14 For all uncleane wicked and ungodly persons of what sort soever are no fit matter to become members of Christs holy City new Jerusalem which is said to come downe from Heaven or visible Church for all such should and ought to be kept out from thence Act. 2.40 1 Cor. 5.13 6.9.10 Rev. 21.27 22.15 In the second place you say the proffession of true Religion is the forme of a true Church this you in England doe and have and therefore are a true Church For answer to which I say that I have already in the foregoing discourse fully proved that your Religion is not a true Religion but a false seing you worship and serve God not accoding to his Lawes and commands but with and according to your owne devises and Inventions but yet I doe confesse that yee doe professe like the Samaritane the worship of the true God but for all that with them you serve your Idols therefore by your owne grounds you have not the forme of a true Church wherefore by the same Ground it followes that you are not a true Church But now punctually to answer your Argument I affirme that th● forme of a true Church is for a company of beleevers who are washed in the bl●od of Christ by a free and voluntary Consent or willingnesse to enter into that heavenly and holy State City or Kingdome which in the word of God is plentiuflly described and by the power of Christ to become a constituted or Polytique Body or Corporation or an inclosed or fenced Garden or Vinyard and then by virtue of their combination uniting joyning themselves together each to other so unto the Lord promising to walk in all his waies to yeild obedience to all his Lawes commands as he requires they should Gen. 17. 2 Cor. 6 17.18 they become a true visible Church of Jesus Christ Deut. 29.9.10.11 2 King 11.17 2 Cron. 15.12 Nehe. 10.29 Psal 110. 3. Jer. 50.4.5 Act. 23.24 so hath power from Christ her head to cast out offenders 1 Cor. 5. to chuse elect ordaine her own Officers Act. 6.3.5 14.23 they ordained them Elders in every Church by Election as the Originall and Beza's Translation with others read it though the word Election by the Bishops fraud and Pollicy be left out in our last English Translation and to receive in beleevers 2 Cor. 2.7.8 and to keepe out wicked persons Rev. 21.27 and 22.15 and to reprove and admonish her owne Officers Bishops or Overseers Col. 4.17 or doe her selfe any sprituall good or exclude from herselfe any evill shee feares or is like to come upon her without the helpe or assistance of any either church or officers besides her selfe Rev. 1.2.3 ch but the Ch. of Eng. neither hath or ever had this forme in the least as I have fully manifested elsewhere as also you may read in a litle Booke lately printed called the Three Estates that is to say the Civill State the rrue Ecclesiasticall Sate and the False Ecclsiasticall State and also you want the profession of the true Religion and therefore your Ch. is no true Ch. of Christ for it is vnited by profession subjection to the Pope of Lambeth who is substitute to the Pope of Rome whome Mason in his Epistle Dedicatory before his Booke of Ordination of Bishops Preists and Deacons cals the Head and cheife over the Ch. of Engl. for they in their publike Court of High Commission at the censure of that noble and worthy Dr. Bastwicke have renounced

the King as Head thereof and have placed it upon the Bishops of Canterbury as you may read at large in the 10. and 11. p. of his Answer to sir John Bankes if Canterbury be her Head as Mason and others affirme then sure I am that Christ is none of her head for his body is no monster to have two heads Therefore the Church of England is a whorish and Antichristian Church and none of Christs having nothing to doe with Jesus Christ nor any of his Lawes Worship Offices Ordinances or Administrations but in the next place you bring an Argument to prove the Religion in the Church of England to be true and you thus lay it downe That Religion which will lead men on into the true way of salvation that must needs be the true Religion But the Religion which we professe leads into the true way of salvation for men to looke for salvation in Gods free mercy in Jesus Christ Therefore say you your Argument must needs be true I answer that if it were granted which in the least I doe not that your Religion is true yet this alone were not sufficient to prove your Church true But I absolutely deny your Argument and affirme that your Religion neither is the true Religion nor that it leads men the true way to salvation for I have already proved it to be a false Religion and that it leads men the true way to Rebellion against God and his Son Jesus Christ But you will say how comes it to passe that some are saved which professe our Religion which you affirme to be false I answer in Moses words hidden things belongs to God but revealed things to us and our Children Devt 29.29 but yet when I seriously consider of it and with a deliberate eye looke into the holy Scripture the revealed will of God it makes me thinke say and cry out with Paul Rom. 11.33 O the depthes of the riches both of the wisedome and knowledge of God how unspeakeable are his judgments and his wayes past finding out who can save his People those elect ones even in the bosome of Antichrist his cursed Kingdome of darknesse contrary to all grounded reason that the wit of man is able to give or render from his revealed will but only must say it is alone his meer mercy and gratious and omnipotent pleasure so to doe who is tyed to no meanes place or person but can worke and bring to passe his owne ends and purposes without meanes yea and beyond all outward meanes 1 Kin. 19.10.17 Ezec. 57. for the holy one of Israel is not limited But to prove this Argument you lay downe an other after this manner If men professing the same way to salvation that we doe have lived and dyed in the profession of it and been saved then is the Religion and way to salvation that we professe a true Religion and way to salvation But men that professe our Religion have been saved Ergo it is true what childish reasoning is here to beg things after this manner and to judge the cause by the effect contrary to the whole currant of the Scripture for it doth largly shew that a bad and wicked cause or action may produce and bring forth a good and glorious effect and this is just as they said in Pauls time let us doe evill that good may come of it but saith he such mens damnation is just Rom. 3.8 and if you have read the Scripture which it appeares you have not very often you may know that the Midwives and Harlot Rahabs lying saved the Israelites children and the Spies lives Exod. 1. Josh 2. for which act of mercy they are commended in the Word of God and also it produced good effects to them for the Lord caused the Midwives to prosper and saved Rahab alive yet for all this they sinned in lying and doe you not know that the Word of God saith wee must not doe the least evill that the greatest good may come of it but yet by your reasoning a man may which to affirme is the height of wickednes and impiety and also by your reasoning a man may defend and justifie all the sinnes and sayings of Gods people and others recorded in the Booke of God out of which that God that is able to bring light out of darkenes and good out of evill hath brought much glory to himselfe as out of Pharaohs hard heartednesse and blood thirsty cruelty that he exercised upon Gods people it produced good to them by working their deliverance and glory to God by manifesting his power and goodnes yet for all this Pharaohs sin was never the lesse And also according to your reasoning Judas his treason might be excused for that sin of his brought a world of glory unto God and salvation and eternall glory to his elect and chosen ones yet though his betraying of Christ did produce such a good and glorious effect it did nothing at all excuse his sin Againe your Arg. is nothing to the purpose to prove that which you have undertaken for we are not reasoning of the way and meanes of salvation which is only and alone by faith in the Lord Christ which is possible may be had in a false Ch. yea also in no Ch. but the thing we are about is to prove see whether the Ch. of Eng. be a true Ch. of Christ or a false Ch. of Antichr But yet more fully to Answer your Argument what though it be confessed that many of God Elect have been saved that have professed your false and Antichr Rel. it will not therefore follow that your Religion is a true Religion nor your church a true church because some have been saved that have professed it I hope you will not so conclude which if you doe then I say by your owne grounds that the chruch of Rome is a true church the Religion there a true Religion for many therein have lost their lives for the maintaining of some truths which have yet adheared to the Church of Rome of many of their eternall happines as good grounds may be given as the most of the martyrs of the ch of Eng. yea and I verily beleive that God hath had and still hath a people there which belongs to his Election of grace which both hath and will save and so by your owne grounds their church and Religion are both true because it is possible that some that professe have been and still may be saved But if you will maintaine this then you contradict your owne writers which have plentifully proved the Religion in Rome and the church thereof to be false and yet have granted that some have been saved there therefore for you to goe about to prove rhe church of Engl. true and the worship therein true because some of the members thereof that have professed the Religion therin have been saved is an erronious unsound ground for by this ground it will follow that the Crosse upon

which the Theife was hanged was a true church for there he had salvation the apprehension of Gods love his assurance of his enterance into the Kingdome of glory as fully as ever any in the ch of En. had and also it will follow that the Chariot in which the Eunuch rode Acts 8. was a true ch for there he came to the knowledg of his salvation the apprehension of the true love of God in Christ also you know God by his almighty power saved Daniel the three children alive even in the Lyons den and in the hot burning furnace and because God by his power did this shall I therefore goe cast my false into the fire and among the Lyons say they have no power to burne me or kill me but I am safe enough because God preserved Daniel and the three children alive in the like condition every wise man would conclude surely I were out of my wits So you see how erronious rotten insufficient unsound all your grounds arguments are in the lying downe of which you run with your deceitfull Logike like a blind horse in a mill about about and still come to the same place where you begun never in the least prove any thing you say by the authority of the word of God nor yet by any grounded reason but ruly your false affirmations for the wind that comes out of you mouth is so weak and feeble that it will scarce blow away a straw if it lie in your way And then in the last place you bring an Arg. in the necke of this being of the same nature with the former and it is this That because Latimer Hooper Bradford with many others were martyrs in your ch and were saved ss●… by the judgment of charity not infalibly wee may judge were saved and knew the corruptions of your church and yet did not separate away from it therefore it is a true Church and need not be separated from seeing men may be saved in it Truly I must confesse unto you I am almost weary with answering your paultery old rotten mouldy stuffe and you are such a novice in the misteries of God and godlynesse and the Kingdome of his Son Jesus Christ not understanding what you say or affirme nor bow to prove an Argument that I am almost loath any more to contend with you in regard the victory in overcomeing you will be so poore and meane and your wares are such paltery and peplary commodities that I am even tyred with lookeing upon them and turning them over but yet for all this I will a litle reply to this your last Argument but I hope you do not hold that maxime in the Church of Rome extra ecclesia nulla salus that is out of the Church no salvation if you doe it is most erronious for I have proved it and the whole New Testament doth declare it that it is possible for a man to be saved though he be a member of no visible Church yea and that some that are joyned to a false Church may be saved but yet if they may be so it is no ground for their staying or abiding there for God cals and commands all his people to be separated from the World and all false churches 2 Cor. 6.16.17.18 Rev. 18.4 but it seemes by your reasoning you hold that if a man get salvation and get to heaven and so get his own ends served let Gods glory goe a begging and lye at the stake a bleeding for all you but truly such a servant deserves no wages but rather punishent for alas man this is but selfe seeking at the best in which a man can have no spirituall comfort and joy But God would have his people to joy and rejoyc in walking in his wayes and sing and be merry and be of a chearefull countenance as it doth become the heires of the Crowne of glory and he would have them not only as it were creep into Heaven but to strive and labour to have an abundant enterane thereinto 1 Pet. 19.10.11 but by your reasoning you would have them never be merry joyfull nor chearfull for in false wayes there is no peace nor comfort Esa 59 8 9.11 Mal. 2.2 but live like forlorne men destitute of all comfort hanging downe their heads like bulrushes and so dishonour their God and their Christ in the eyes of the men of the world who will glory and triumph over them as though there were not that sweetnes beautifulnes amiablenes fulnes satisfaction and contednes in the enjoying of God in his Son Christ that might make them walke with merry counterances chearfull hearts and reioycing soules as it becomes the Sons and heires of the King of glory disdaining contemning and lightly esteeming the base and empty moth eaten contents of this present world and to have their affections crucified to it and it to them and though they be in the world yet to walke as those whose conversation is already in Heaven longing and desiring to be dissolved to be with Christ which is best of all Away man Christ hath no need of such unserviceable selfe seeking servants as you on are to weare his glorious and rich Livery and let me tell you God never sent his sonne Christ to save us for that end to live at ease and delight as we lift or in the fashion of the World but that we should glorifie him in being unlike to the World in our lives and conversation by an unblameable walking in all his wayes labouring and endeavouring to yeild obedience to all his Lawes and commaunds not suffering our hearts to be possessed with base feares of the world nor be in love with the things thereof but that wee should hold forth the profession of the purity of his truth and Gospell without feare before the eyes of the world and though wee suffer persecution affliction and tribulation for it that wee should joy and rejoce in it and esteem it our Crown and happines that the Lord counts us worthy to suffer for his sake And truly let me tell you he that seekes but his own ends and so that he could be but saved cares for no more not regarding or takeing thought what becomes of Gods glory honour and praise it is an evident and demonstrable signe that that man doth not belong to God nor never shall be heire of glory John 14.23.24 25.8.14 1 John 3.8.10 2.9 Rev. 12.11 14.4 And what if Latimer and the rest of the martyrs had communion with the Church of England is that a sufficient ground that therefore wee must not separate away from it I hope not for what if God winked at their blindnes darkenes and ignorance yet now let me say with Paul that in truth he will have all his people to come to the knowledge of his truth and wayes Acts 17.20 because he hath appoynted a day wherein he will shortly judge that great scarlet whore of Rome and all her