putting to cruell Torments and death so many Priests and Professors of the Roman Religion Fourthly in depriving their Bishops and Clergymen of their respective Church-Governments Dignities Seas Benefices and Churches and setting up others they get livings in their places Fifthly in making it no less then High-Treason which is yet in force either to be Priests or to communicate with them in many Spirituall Church-Offices and Sacraments Sixtly in continuing to this day in a violent detaining of their Churches Benefices Dignities and Spirituall Functions from all those of the Roâ—an profession and holding them in their own hands and all this because they maintain certain pretended Errors which they now confess not to be fundamentall nor destructive of Salvation and consequently that those of the Roman Church have suffered and still suffer all these intollerable injuries for that which even these Modern Authors acknowledg to be no more then a venial and small sin for if it were mortall it would destroy Salvation so long as one wilfully continues in it which they affirm it does not Further by this Acknowledgement these modern Protestant Authors must confess that their former Writers who were of a contrary mind in charging the Church of Rome and the rest with her of Superstition and Idolatry c. and all those who then joyned with them and all their modern Churches and Protestants both without and within England who at this day hold it a point of their Faith to accuse the Church of Rome in the same mannerâ— erre damnably against Christian Truth and so consequently are no true Churches of Christ for it cannot be less then a damnable Error to make it a point of their Faith and Religion to condemn any one much more all the visible Churches of the West nay and of the East too and so of whole Christendom for nine hundred yeares together of grievous Superstition when upon better examination the Doctors of the same Protestant Church are compelled by force of truth to confess that those Churches neither are nor ever were guilty of those horrid Errors and at most erre onely venially and lightly which hinder them not either to be a true Church of Christ or to obtain Salvation Bishop of Cant. p. 129. num 3. Even while they constantly and immoveably maintain them and accuse all who wilfully contradict them and condemn them as erroneous And hence also it follows that seeing these modern Protestant Authors and their party Communicate in Prayer and Sacraments with the Presbyterians and Calvinists who accuse the Church of Rome of Idolatry c. and so put it in fundamentall error and acknowledg themselves to make one Church with them must be guilty of deadly Schisme by that Communion and acknowledgment and consequently so long as they continue in that Communion are uncapable of Salvation Here are many words to small purpose Answ 11 a Question might have been couched in five lines enlarged to five pages my answer must be answerable Know you therefore whosoever you are without a name Protestants are not put to great straits nor desperate acknowledgments they are not ashamed of their first beginners They stand not for the Succession of an invisible Church they acknowledg not for their first beginners of a visible Church Berengarius the Waldenses Albigenses Wicklifsts Hussits whom yet you cannot truly affirm to have been legally condemned for Hereticks but we alleadge for our Predecessors Christ and his Apostles Ignatius Clemens Hegesippus Polycarpus Irenaeus Theophilus Tertullian Cyprian Origan Methodius Gregory Neozes Constantius Magnus Eusebius Casarian Lactantius Athanasius Hilarius Basilius Magnus Gregorius Nyssenus Gregorius Nazianzenus Hieronymus Epiphanius Ambrotius Chrysostomus Cyrillus Theodoretus Augustinus with the foure Oecumenicall Councils of Nice of Constantinople of Ephesus of Calcedon with all the holy company of Saints and noble Army of Martyrs untill the seventh Age against whose positions if we hold any thing name it we answer it prove it we yeild and many more Catholicks since we acknowledge not to succeed the Church of Rome we were and are as the Church of Rome was of the Catholick Church we acknowledge her to be a true Church we deny her to be the true Church she is and we are parts of the true Church yet we not so erroneous as she we acknowledge not to have wronged the Church of Rome we complain that the Church of Rome or rather the Bishop of Rome with his Court hath wronged that Church this Church and with both the whole Chatholick Church by Quittance and by Forfeiture 1. By Quittance the Bishop of Rome hath wronged the Church in assuming to himself the Title of Vniversall Bishop and spirituall Soveraigne and Monarch of the Church which is as inconsistent with a Provinciall Patriarchiat-ship which was never by any nor shall by me be denyed him as Humane and Divine Institution 2. By Forfeiture for if the Rebellion of an Inferior forfeits by renouncing his Loyalty to his Superiour then the Bishop of Rome is notorious in his Rebellion against Generall Councils the onely Supreme Ecclesiasticall power and not onely against a Generall Council the Representative Church but also against the Catholick Church in usurping a Dominion over it And not onely by Rebellion but also by Robbery who but the Bishop of Rome would have robbed the King of England of his Investitures of Bishops which Henry the seventh protested against by his Proctour Who but the Bishop of Rome robbed the King of his Patronages by Collations Provisions and Expectative Graces Who but he robbed the King of England of the last Appeales of his Subjects contray to the ancient Lawes of England I could go on to inferior Robberies committed by the Bishop of Rome upon the Nobility and Clergy of England but I hasten to the rest of your Question We have not condemned your Church of Rome of Superstition Idolatry Antichristianisme c. Private men it may be have the Church of England have not and if the Church of Rome be guilty of such Errors let her free her self The Church of England hath not destroved burnt alienated to secular uses thousands of your Churches Monasteries Townes Citties Villages if any such things have been done let the Actors be quesstioned let not the Church of England be blamed The Church of England hath not put to cruell Torments and death many Priests and Professors of the Roman Religion nor deprieved their Bishops and Clergy of their Church-Governments the Church of England hath onely recovered their own the Church of England hath not made it High Treason to be Priests you know when they are executed they executed for something else then for being Priests The Church of England continues not in a violent detaining of Roman Benefices but in a lawfull possession of their own and all this not for certain pretended but reall Errors which you of the Roman Church do hold and destructive to Salvation to such knowing men as your self though not of the same consequence to
by the first Authors of the Protestant Religion Quest 9 and the second done and still continued by their followers Or if the first Authors of Protestant Religion received those points of their Doctrine from any visible Church in the whole World which existed immediately before their relinquishing the Roman Doctrine let that Church be produced and named Sir Answ 9 this Question desires another Question for answer what do you mean by whether the first was not done by the first Authors of the Protestant Religion If you mean insolent madnesse insufferable height of pride for any Christian whatsoever to call in question much more to censure and condemn as erroneous that which all the visible Churches in the World taught and Practised With your good leave you must name the first Authors and what it was they censured and condemned and so you must explain what followes and the second done and still continued by their followers if you meane manifest foolery to follow any Teachers and to give eare and belief to them who contradict the universall Practise and Doctrine of the whole Christian World You must name that universall Doctrine and Practise of the whole Christian World and how we have contradicted it else you fight with the wind and say nothing For the rest of this ninth Question to produce and name that visible Church from whence we have received those points of Doctrine which existed immediately before we relinquished the Roman Doctrine the Roman Church it self is named and named thus Antiquam Romam non Anglia Roma reliquit Anglia non Romam Britannes Roma repellit Do but return to the old Roman Doctrine in the Primitive and Catholick Constitution of it and we are friends till then Farewell Seeing Protestants affirm Quest 10 that the Roman Church is infected with errors in faith which they pretend to have purged in their Reformation I demand that it be evidenced when any of those pretended errors began to be publickly taught and Practised out of some approved Authors of any Age who affirm that the publick profession of the said errors begun in or about their times for seeing they were publickly Practised through all Christendom if that publick Practise had ever begun in any Age since the Apostles it must have been taken notice of whereby their instances of Consumption of the Lungs of a beard growing white c. are shewed to be nothing to the purpose because they are either wholly secret or insensible and no way publick or notorious as these were and seeing faith by St. Paul Eph. 4. v. 1 3. is said to be one and reckoned up with the Unity of God and Christ and so must be perfectly one how Protestants and those of the Roman Church be properly said to have one Faith when the one believes what the other disbelieves And as opinions contradicting one another cannot be said to be one opinion how can Faiths contradicting one another be said to be one Faith Neither is it enough to say that they are one in that wherein they agree for so they will be one onely in part or partially and not absolutely and entirely and as the least difference destroys the perfect Unity of God and Christ so will it do that of Faith and though my opinion agree with that of another in many things but disagrees in many other from his we can never be said absolutely as it must be in Faith to be of the same and one opinion Dolosus versatur â—iâ—ca universalibus Answ 10 your arguing by universalls and yet requiring particular answers argues you to be deceiptfull and to seek for Triumph more then Truth yet that people may be undeceived I shall follow your universalls with my particulars and though I could pay you with your own coyne in saying while the good man slept the enâ—â—ous man sowed Tares yet I pay you in more current coyne and say Protestants affirm not that the Roman Church is infected with errors in Faith and yet we say there are manifest and clear errors in the Roman Church which we purged and when some of your Errors not pretended but reall Errors begun thus is evidenced Purgatory was never publickly taught by the whole Christian Church and never decreed by the Roman Church it self untill the Elorentine Council 1439. Transubstantiation was never publickly taught by the whole Christian Church nor allowed or decreed by the Roman Church it self untill the Laterane Council 1215. Worshipping of Images was never publickly taught nor allowed or decreed untill the second Nicene Council 787. Communion in one kind not above 200. yeares Supremacy of the Pope was condemned by St. Gregory himself lib. 1. Ep. 16. Anno 600. for Antichristian For your Consumption in the Lungs and a Beard growing white I think with you they are nothing to the purpose whether yours or ours nor is it to my purpose to be satisfied with the colour of your Beard whether it be blew or yellow To your Text of St. Paul Eph. 4. v. 1 2. I confesse Faith is said to be one and believe you believe that you of the Roman and we of the English Church have both but one Faith whether you take it for the Rule of Faith the Creed If you have a new Creed we leave you or the end of Faith Salvation if you have any other end we leave you or the meanes of that Faith and Salvation Christ If you have any other means we leave you still and for your contradicting opinions I tell you it is a lame similitude to bring in thereby contradicting Faith for though you and I agree but partially in points of opinion yet we agree entirely in point of Faith Whether it be not a great Argument Quest 11 to induce any rationall indifferent man to judge that the Protestant Authors are put to great straits and to desperate acknowledgments which being ashamed of the first refuge of their beginners in dying for the defence of their succession to an invisible Church in alleadging for their Predecessors and continuance of the visibility of their Church Berengarius the Waldenses Albigerses Wicklifsts Hussits and other publickly condemned Hereticks they confesse now that they have no other means to save their visible Succession but by acknowledging that they succeed to the Church of Rome and other Churches adjoyning with her against them in all the points of difference betwixt them and her and all those who are united to her to be true Churches of Christ and consequently to hold no fundamentall Error at all and consequent to this to acknowledge that their first Authors and Churches both in England and other Countries wronged the Church of Rome and those others insufferably first in condemning them of Superstition Idolatry Antichristianisme c. Which are fundamentall Errors in Religion and destructive of Salvation Secondly upon this pretext in destroying burning and alienating to secular uses so many thousands of their Churches Monasteries Townes Cities Castles Villages Thirdly in Massacrating and
never simpler men for gifts nor worse-disposed men for attempts And now against this Council against us we oppose four Councils for us against you The second of Ephesus the second of Constantinople that of Eliberis and the fourth of Carthage The great Council of Lateran I conceive it alledged for the matter of Transubstantiation and here I note the Antiquity of this Council It was called in the Year 1215. so old is Transubstantiation no older and against this we oppose all Councils and Fathers silence before and before all the institution of Christ himself who sayes The flosh profiteth no thing my words are spirit and the Exposition of this Institution of all Writers until this Council The Council of Constance I conceive it alledged for communion in one kind against which I need not say more than what Gelasius Bishop of Rome it self said Sine grandi Sacrilegio fieri non potest it was high Sacriledge to do it unless you will give me leave to adde Christs own Precept Drink you all of this all Laity as well as Clergy The Council of Florence I conceive it alleadged for Purgatory called Anno 1438. and if I am right in this Contecture I need not say more then what Aâ—phonsus à Castro l. 8. adv Heres verbo Indulgentia hath said the mention of Purgatory in ancient writers is almost none at all and if you will be pleased to name any one Father save Origen untill St. Gregory the Great his time that is direct for Purgatory I shall not much stand upon it since I think it will not much hinder any mans Salvation to believe it or disbelieve it for my part I neither do nor dare nor will believe it The Council of Trent called Anno 1563. I conceive it alleadged for all differences whatsoever betwixt the Romans and Protestants which Council if you can prove was either lawfull generall or free which I yet positively deny in each I shall sit down and in this Council I tell you were not many Holy Patriarchs Metropolitans Archbishops Bishops not one of the Eastern Church and you know the reason of it too For proofes of Learning if the Church of England be not comparable to you in number she hath exceeded you in weight and that this world knowes and you have felt and now you by your policy make the Churchmen of England smart for it For your universall esteem of Sanctity with your Gregory Beda Thomas Bonaventure Antonine Dominick to avoide some stories of some of them The Church of England can produce as great a Cloud of witnesses by the Verdict of all unbyassed men in an Andrewes a Bucheridge a Laud a Montague a Hall a Prideaux and diverse others before them a Jewell a Whitgift a Cranmer a Latimer a Ridley Speak not too much of your zelous passing into barbarous Nations to convert them lest the Indean be brought out of Love with Heaven if the Roman go thither And for our Ministry with their Wives Goods and Families we have little left thanks to you or some as bad as you they can apply themselves to Study and Devotion as well and with less sin then your single Clergy and retired Religions Boast not too much of your unanimous consent untill your Dominicans and Franciscans be at peace about the immaculate Conception of the blessed Virgin untill your Jesuites and Dominicans be at peace about the Aids and Operations of Grace untill Bannes and Lessius be at peace in the sad point of absolute Reprobation untill your Doctors of Sorbon and Lovaine be at peace about the Popes Supremacy untill Venice and Rome be all at peace about the Popes power untill the French and Spanish Papists be at peace about an equality of Subjection to the Pope untill 〈◊〉 â—regory the first and Gregory the seventh be by some 〈◊〉 your selves reconciled about the Title of Vniversalis Episcopus untill all of you be reconciled about the Popes infallibility untill all and every one of you tell the world whether Translation of the Bible by Sextus the first or Clement the eight be the best cum multis aliis quae nunc perscribere longum est For miracles to confirm our Doctrine against yours we need none untill you by a new miracle turne Rome as it is into Rome as it was and then we all meet in an incomparable Authority of one Catholick Church Whether hence be not evidently discovered not onely the insufferable Pride of Luther Quest 31 and the other Originall beginners of any Sect in Protestancy in preferring their sole Authority before that of the Prelates and Doctors of all the visible Churches in Christendom existent when they begun first to preach their Doctrine but the extreme madness of all the ignorant Laity who followed them upon their sole Authority and preferred one single person upon his bare word without any extraordinary signes or manifest proofes from Heaven attesting his Authority before all the Doctors Prelates Councils Churches within the precincts of Christendom both of that present time and for 900. years before And if those were infected with so deep a frensie how can any man be adjudged deservedly discreet and prudent who approves of their proceedings in this particular and sides with them at least in some Article of other in the opposition of the whole Christian world as all Protestants do even to this day Rarely spoken Answ 31 and a fair way to catch birds The insufferable Pride of Luther if he were guilty of it let him answer for it and all other Originall beginners of any Sect in Protestancy Sir it is very well known who said This Sect is every where spoken against yet for all that that very Sect over-spread it self and conquered the whole world and this very Sect of Protestancy hath put a fair beginning to the Conquest of the Roman Doctrine which though now like that Sect under the ten Persecutio◠〈◊〉 somewhat eclipsed hath yet so much light left as to discerne between all the visible Churches in Christendom all Doctors Prelates Councils Churches within the precincts of Christendom and the present Roman and claim none for our beginners but Christ and his Apostles the four Generall Councils and the Primitive Fathers and the Church of Rome it self as it was when it was Catholick and therefore think they are to be judged deservedly discreet and prudent who approve our present Doctrines with the whole Christian world and desert the present Roman Hence I farther demand Quest 32 That seeing on one side the true Christian Religion having the divine Wisdom for its Authority cannot admit of any thing imprudent as properly belonging to it in the choyce of it and on the other side That the Protestant Religion or any Sect whatsoever sprung from it or existent in it cannot be prudently chosen by any unlearned person who is sufficiently informed of the nullity of that Authority which propounds it compared with the Authority propounding the Roman Religion whether I say those
particulars considered the Protestant Religion in any Sect of it whatsoever can be esteemed the true Christian Religion Sir Answ 32 I have not yet known the Protestant Religion divided into any Sects we all believe the same Creeds we all hold the same foundation and Articles of Faith we all hold the Scriptures the onely judge of controversies which because you deny and decline we think that man imprudent who deserts the Protestant to turn Roman and him prudent that deserts the Roman to turn Protestant since there is but a possibility of salvation for an unlearned man in the Roman because it depends upon human Authority in the Protestant there is a certainty of salvation for unlearned and learned because it depends upon divine Authority and therefore a true christian Church and Religion Hence I press further Quest 32 Whether the proving that Protestant Religion cannot be prudently chosen or retained by any unlearned persons who are sufficiently informed of the eminent Authority propounding the Roman Religion is not a sufficient Argument to them that no Sect amongst them in any point wherein it differs from the Roman hath either any solid ground in the Holy Scriptuâ—es or true relation to Gods Holy Spirit or coherence with true Religion seeing a Religion which cannot by them be prudently chosen cannot possibly proceed from any of these three whatsoever fair shew Protestants each respectively to his several Sect make vainly of them Sir all these are but words Answ 33 and you do still supponere not supponenda For that Religion may be prudently chosen whose rule of Faith is certain but such is the rule of Faith in the Protestant Religion as being ultimated and determined in and by the Scripture therefore the Protestant Religion may be prudently chosen Again that Religion cannot be prudently chosen whose Authority proposing it is not sufficient but such is the Authority propounding the present Roman Religion as being human whether Pope or Council therefore the Roman present Religion cannot prudently be chosen Again that Religion may prudently be chosen which hath true relation to Gods Holy Spirit but the Protestant Religion hath such relation therefore the Protestant Religion may prudently be chosen for there is a true relation betwixt Gods Holy Spirit and Gods Holy Word because Gods Holy Spirit is the Author of Gods Holy Word I need not speak of the third because coherence with true reason follows either of the former And upon this I demand yet further Quest 34 Whether the Roman Doctors have any obligation to urge any other Argument then this either from Scripture Fathers or reason against Protestants till they have cleared their Religion from the impeachment of imprudence committed by their followers in the election of it or persisting in it as is afore declared Sir Answ 34 your afore Declaration hath proved little and your present proves less though I confess your Roman Doctors have no farther obligation to urge any other Argument then Scripture Fathers or Reason against Protestants Urge either of them to purpose and we shall be so far from clearing our Religion from the impeachment of imprudence that we will confess it is the onely prudence in the choyce of Religion to embrace the Roman Till then I say That Religion which hath not hitherto been convinced from Scriptures Fathers or Reason ought by the rule of prudence to be embraced but such is the Protestant Religion therefore by the rule of prudence the Protestant Religion ought to be embraced or if you will have it per contraria take it thus It is a part of imprudence to embrace that Religion which hath been convinced from Scriptures Fathers and Reason but such is the Roman Religion therefore it is the part of imprudence to embrace the Roman Religion Now Sir to avoid reply give me leave to tell you Baptizing as Christ hath Commanded Praying as Christ hath taught Believing the Scriptures Serving and Worshipping God without Images Receiving the Sacrament as Christ Instituted it have not been convinced by Scriptures Fathers or Reason Equalling Tradition to Scripture Worshiping of Images or God by Images Praying to Saints Receiving the Sacrament in one kind believing the Popes infallibility c. have been convinced by Scriptures Fathers and Reason On the contrary side I demand Quest 35 whether the Roman Doctors have any obligation in rigour of dispute to use any other Argument for perswading unlearned persons to desert the Protestant and embrace the Roman Religion then this imprudence in adhering to the Protestant and of prudence in uniting themselves to the Roman Church so long as the said unlearned Protestants perswade themselves that they proceed prudently in preferring their own before the Roman seeing this erroneous perswasion is the first step which must be redressed in relinquishing the one and the contrary perswasion the first step which must be fixed in approaching to the other Now when unlearned Protestants once confesse that they are convinced in this and thereupon recede from Protestancy but object that the prudentiall Motives to prefer the Roman Religion before the Protestant as they conceive that the Protestant is wholly improbable and so to be deserted so they convince no more then that the Roman is probable and so it is great Likelyhood to be the true Religion but convince not that it is so much as morally certaine To Protestants brought thus farre there is an obligation put upon the Roman Doctors to prove at least the morall certainty of it to such as acknowledge that it is morally certaine that the Roman Re-Religion is the sole true saving Religion but deny notwithstanding that it thereby followes that it is infallibly certain rises an Obligation to prove that it is Infallibly certain and when one is once convinced of this also but yet doubts whether this Infallibility be Divine and so the highest of all Infallibilities there will be also an Obligation to shew to such as are brought on so far the most high divine infallibility of the Roman Religion hence therefore I demand whether our late Protestants and Socinians proceed not preposterously and unreasonably in pressing Roman Doctors to demonstrate the Divine Infallibility of the truth of the Roman Religion before they themselves grant that it is infallible in any degree or morally certain or probable or prudential for though it be necessary to prove all these particulars in their due circumstances yet there is no necessity to prove them all at once to every Adversary but by degrees the one in order after the other with correspondence to what of them is denyed or called in question by those with whom we treat for thus we proceed orderly and logically à notioribus ad ignotiora and hold a correspondence with Nature by proceeding ab imperfectioribus ad perfectiora still observing the step or progress of our Adversary and still stepping and going along with him and if this method had been strictly held by our late controvertists the Adversaries mouths had
THE XXXVI QUESTIONS PROPOVNDED FOR RESOLUTION OF UNLEARNED PROTESTANTS In matter of Religion to the Doctors of The Prelaticall pretended reformed-Reformed-Church of ENGLAND RETORTED For Resolution of Unlearned PAPISTS In matter of Religion to V. H. and V. N. Doctors of the pretended Catholick Church of ROME By T. SVVADLIN D.D. Religio ofâ—o vera quae Deo honorabilior quae paci amicabilior quae Homini favorabilior LONDON Printed by J. G. for the use of the Author MDCLIX THE XXXVI QUESTIONS PROPOUNDED FOR RESOLUTION OF UNLEARNED PROTESTANTS c. WHether every Christian is not obliged to chuse the safest way all things considered Quest 1 to Salvation Yes Questionlesse Answ 1 this Question is pious and must receive an affirmative Answer If the rest prove no worse we shall not 〈◊〉 long at odds Whether that way wherein both parties acknowledge Quest 2 that unlearned men may have possibility of Salvation though one of them say it be with difficulty and danger if they look not well to the Foundation be not prudently to be judged more safe for the unlearned then that which is esteemed safe by one onely patty and that incomparably lesse in Number but by the other incomparably greater party which equallizes the less in all respects requisite to gain Credit and Authority is constantly held to be utterly voide of all possibility of Salvation even for unlearned persons I wish you had not so soon forgot the piety of your first Question it is not Answ 2 it cannot be gâ—â—nted that because the incomparably greater party Authoritatively spoken to take no notice of what followâ—◠〈…〉 Salvation to any of the incomparably less number and that less number acknowledge a possibility of Salvation to the unlearned of the greater party it is therefore prudently to be judged more safe for the unlearned to make choyce of the greater number as the safest way to Salvation For first the incomparably greater number is a Multitude and therefore not the safest way to follow them For secondly the incomparably greater number may with the incomparably conceited Crowes think their own feathers whitest For thirdly your Argument thus retorts upon your self the incomparably greater number and the incomparably less number both confess Scripture to be infallible but the less deny the Pope to be infallible The like is confest of Faith to be a sure rule Tradition is denyed by one The old Creedes both grant a new one is denyed by us To worship God is confest by both but to worship Images or God by Images is denyed by us To trust in Christs Merits is confest by both but to trust in Mans own Merits is denyed by us To pray to God in Christs Name is confest by both but to pray to Saints or to God in the Name of Saints is denyed by us In the Sacrament of the Eucharist is confest by both a Sacrifice Commemorative but a propitiatory Sacrifice is denyed by us A reall presence we both grant but a Carnall we deny The Body and Blood by Institution and Primitive Observation we both acknowledge but an Alienation of the Cup we disclaim In the English Liturgy is no error say some of you in the Roman Missall are many say all of us and therefore by this Argument of yours it is by prudence to be judged more safe for the unlearned to chuse that way to Salvation which is confest by both then that which is conceived safe by one party onely i.e. yours I have been somewhat long upon this and yet must be a little longer because of your Marginall Note viz. Bishop of Cant. Sect. 35. p. 280. Whom you quote somewhat erroniously for he bids Marke it is but a possibility of Salvation he grants to silly souls in the Romish Church but a secure way he denies you and he backs it from St. Augustine Lib. 1. de Bapt. cont Don. ca. 3. Who judged it a great sin to prefer Incerta certis uncertaine and naked possibilities before an evident and certain course And there he gives you a taste too from your own Learned Card. Bellar. lib. 5. de Justif ca. 7. Tutissimum est and afterwards layes you and the Donatists together in this want of Charity amongst you or Charity mistaken by you and lastly desires you that you would not make us as malicious at least as rash as your selves in denying Salvation to some ignorant silly souls whose humble and peaceable obedience makes them safe among any part of men that profess the Foundation Christ let him that pleaseth read the whole thirty five Section and he will soon resolve which is the safer way yours or ours Whether this be not the present Case betwixt Protestants and those of the Church of Rome Quest 3 according to the acknowledgment of the latest and learnedest of Protestant Authors Bishop of Cant. ibid. They acknowledge the said possibility of Salvation for unlearned persons in the Roman and the Roman Doctors denying all possibility to unlearned Protestants so long as they remaine wilfully in the Protestant Religion Let it be the present Case betwixt us Answ 3 so you take the Restriction of the latest and learned'st Protestant Authors and particularly of that most Reverend Father in God and now with God because his Martyr and summe up your gaines There is a possibility and but a possibility of Salvation for unlearned Papists in the Church of Rome which argues our Charity There is no possibility for Learned or unlearned Protestants say you which argues your malice Cant. p. 285. Yes which likens and compares you with the Donatists The words of the same Archbishop Who galls you thus whether the Sacrament of Baptisme was true in the Catholick Church or in the part of Donatus The Donatists exhorted all to be Baptized amongst them why Because both parties granted that Baptisme was true amongst the Donatists which that peevish sect most unjustly denyed the sound part as St. Augustine lib. 1. Cont. Don. de Baptist ca. 3. delivers it I would aske now the Archbishops own words had not the Orthodox true Baptisme among them because the Donatists denyed it injuriously Now I say pray read the Archbishop on and put the truth into your eyes and tell the world if you see ere the worse Whether all unlearned Protestants Quest 4 who are sufficiently informed of what is heresaid are not guilty of a damnable neglect of their Salvation so long as they remaine Protestants and refuse to be of the Roman Church And why not Learned as well as unlearned Answ 4 certain 〈…〉 they would be in the deeper guilt if there were any 〈…〉 ther because Vivacity of Understanding striving 〈…〉 his own Light makes more guilty then simplicity of 〈…〉 ving can possibly do so possibility of Salvation for 〈…〉 â—â—â—ple man in the Roman Church there is but for a 〈…〉 man one that knowes the errors of the Church and 〈◊〉 know a great many there is not for ought I yet know so much as a possibility Yet
simple and well-meaning men amongst you the distinction of your veniall Sins we refer to your selves every sin we say is mortall so long as a man wilfully continues in it knowing it to be sin Nor do we hold it a point of Faith to accuse the Church of Rome of Superstition and Idolatry but if you are guilty of such Crimes look you to it we erre not damnably in saying Worshipping Images or God by Images is Idolatry and therefore for all this are true Churches of Christ we condemn not the visible Churches of the West nor of the East much less whole Christendom for 900. yeares together of Superstition name but one point we hold contrary to the Tenents of the Catholick Church for 1600. yeares I give you a larger time we yield You are come acain to erring venially and lightly to which you had answer before onely take this by way of addition to your Quotation of the Bishop of Cant. p. 129. Num. 3. All that that Learned and most Reverend Bishop saies and grants is that the Church of Rome is a true Church in Effence and this because she receiveth the Scripture as a Rule of Faith though as but a partiall and imperfect Rule and both the Sacraments as Instrumentall Causes and Seales of Grace though they adde more and misuse these And now what you have got by this Quotation when you have understood it you may alter to a better Mode To your last which charges us to Communicate in Prayer and Sacraments with the Presbyterians and Calvinists and so are guilty of deadly Schisme and are thereby consequently uncapable of Salvation I would and do wish you had not spoke false English for we Communicate neither with Presbyterian or Calvinist let them be all one it is all one to me they are at a greater dinance from us then Rome it self And I think the poor Church of England suffers more under one of them then ever she did under the Church of Rome and therefore as yet are as capable of Salvation as you of the Roman Church because we hold of the Catholick in which and which Church onely is Salvation and from which Church if you have made a Schisme by giving the cause of separation let it be your care to return to the Catholick that we may shake hands and be friends Whether it be not a great Argument of security to those who either are of the Roman Church or convert themselves to it Quest 12 that her very Adversaries after so many condemnations of her to hold most grievous and damnable Errors dare not now accuse her to hold any Error destructive of Salvation so that the belief of her Doctrine in every point their obedience to all her Commandments the exercise of all her Practises their praying to Saints reverencing of holy Images adoring of Christ as really and naturally present in the Sacrament c. consist with Salvation And though some say Bishop of Cant. p. 281. though these destroy not Salvation yet they are dangerous points and Practises weakning the Foundation and endeavouring the destruction of it in continuance of time yet who sees not that it is more secure to hold a Religion which makes the Foundation onely weak by their Adversaries concession then to hold theirs which the contrary party most constantly affirms to destroy quite and rase the Foundation of Religion and to make Salvation not onely hard and in danger but utterly impossible till it be deserted Security it may be Answ 12 not a safe security for certainly praying to Saints which hath neither Precept Pattern nor Promise Reverencing of holy Images which hath a direct prohibition if they are not holy and how they are made holy you should do well to tell us adoring Christ as really and naturally present in the Sacrament if by naturally present you understand carnally which hath a direct negation in the Scriptures will not consist with salvation no not with a possibility of Salvation which you might have learnt from the Archbishop of Cant. if you had Quoted him right for in the 181. p. which you cite not a word of any such thing But in the 281. and 282. it is to the purpose not yours but ours and there you shall find thus much with much more a secure way they cannot go that hold with such Corruptions when they know them now whether it be wisdom in such a point as Salvation is to forsake a Church in the which the ground of Salvation is firm to follow a Church in which it is but possible one may be saved but very probably he may do worse if he look not well to the Foundation judge ye So the Archbishop so I and so you have an answer to your 12. Question Whether it be a likely thing Quest 13 that the chiefest of the pretended Errors in the Roman Religion contain any danger of losing Salvation in maintaining them seeing for this 1000 yeares by the common confession of Protestants themselves they have been universally believed and Practised as matters belonging to Christian Faith and Duty both by the Latine and Greek Church and in the belief and Practise of them was the common way wherein Christians were saved which if it were dangerous what other safe way was there wherein Christians might be saved and yet certainly there was alwaies a safe way to Heaven And what likelihood is there that the safe way should be wholly unknown and unpractised for so many hundred yeares together and the common known way according to the full belief and setled perswasion of all the visible Churches of Christendom should be dangerous and unsafe Or what reason can be given that the Professors of the Doctrine of the Roman Church should be in an unsafe and dangerous way before Protestants began seeing they had none in those times to shew them that they were in danger Yes Answ 13 likely enough for the chiefest of the Errors not pretended but Errors in the Roman Religion contain danger of losing Salvation in maintaining them else why did Bellarmine himself the greatest and learned'st Champion the Church of Rome ever had Lib. 5. de Just c. 7. say in regard of the uncertainty of our own Righteousness and of the danger of vaine-glory it is safest to repose our whole trust in the mercy and goodnesse of God And I think and you believe this is one Error which contains Error of losing Salvation for he that stands upon his own Merits totally or partially is very like to come short of Salvation Else King David would never have prayed Enter not into judgement with thy Servant O Lord for no flesh is righteous in thy sight Else the Prophet Isaiah would never have said our Righteousnesse is as a filthy cloath Else Christ would never have Commanded us to confess when we have done all we can to say we are unprofitable Servants Seeing for 1000. yeares by the common consent of Protestants themselves they have been universally believed and Practised
solution may pass for current who can be certainly assured that there is any true Church of Christ visible or invisible existent now in the world for all the promises concerning the continuance of it to the worlds end may be as well said to be as well conditionall and frustrate by the malice of men as this Eph. 4 c. and who knowes that the said malice is not already grown to that height that it hath deserved that God should take his true Church quite out of the world and so that there is now no true Church existent in all the world Sir in this long passage Answ 22 you have fought onely with your own wind instead of a Question you have supposed an Answer and then given your own Answer to your own Questioning Answer or Answering Question both which being full enough of I leave it as I find it unless you will have a Syllogisme without a Syllogisme Answer a Question without a Question and then you shall have it thus That which was never Questioned or Answered ought not now to be Questioned or Answered but the frustrating of Gods predictions conditionall or absolute by mans malice or merits was never Questioned or Answeted therefore now ought not to be Questioned or Answered Such as these may well come out of a Jesuiticall Court but never yet came from the Catholick Church Sir I must and do tell you there is little less then Blasphemy in your supposition and somewhat more then little less in your position this is beyond Nihil dictum quod non dictum fuit prius Whether it be not evident Quest 23 that unlearned Protestants who cannot determine differences in Religion either by force of Argument or places of Scripture but must wholly depend in the choice of their Faith upon Authority and Credit of Christian Teachers are not obliged in Conscience to prefer that Authority and credibility of Doctors which all circumstances considered is absolutely and unquestionably the greater Authority No Answ 23 it is not yet evident for unlearned Protestants can determine differences in Religion if not by force of Argument yet by places of Scripture which they of Rome cannot do and the reason is ready they deny their Laity we allow ours to read the Scripture and therefore need not depend upon their Teachers but upon the Teacher of us all nor have you yet proved your Authority unquestionably the greater but unquestionably the least of all Authorities unless you take it Sensu Romano non Catholico what the next produces we shall see Whether that Authority of Doctors Quest 24 where those of one side are equall at least if not exceeding them of the contrary party in Learning Wisdome Zeal Sanctity Vertue Sincerity and all other Qualities and Perfections which confer to the accomplishment of complete Authority in Christian Teacher and with this equality incomparably exceed the Doctors of the other party in number is not in all prudence to be judged absolutely and unquestionably the greatest Authority To pass your impertinences of Idem upon Idem Answ 24 and your over-weening opinion of exceeding the Protestants party in Learning Wisdome Zeal Sincerity Virtue Sanctity to which adde but the Scripture and we will acknowledge a complete Authority and submit to the exposition of that Authority in the sense of the four first Generall Councils and the Fathers of the first 800. years or a present lawfully called Generall Council to which if you will do the like we shall then praise God for the fruition of what we yet pray for the Peace and Unity of Christendom Whether this equality at least in all the said perfections Quest 25 is not to be found in the Roman Doctors compared with those of the Protestants Let the equality at least Answ 25 be granted in all the said perfections Quoad hominem though the Comparison savers not well what you gaine by it we may see anon Whether this forementioned equalizing the Protestant Doctors those of the Roman Church Quest 26 the many yeares of their continuance and universall extent of their Religion considered exceed not incomparably in number those of the Protestants profession No it doth not Answ 26 neither incomparably nor yet comparably for the many years of continuance will exceed on our part so that you divide the years equally from 800. to 800. and then judge your selves which 800. years comes nearest to the primitive purity in matter of Religion your 800. or our 800. Name but one general Council or any number of Fathers for the first 800. exceeding our number actum est the field is yours Whether this equality in perfections Quest 27 and incomparable excess in number considered all unlearned Protestants are not obliged both in Prudence and Conscience to prefer the Authority of the Roman Doctors before that of Protestants and consequently to follow the Roman and desert the Protestant Doctrine No Answ 27 not yet for all this is but Idâ—m per idem still onely you have now added Conscience to Prudence adde but Scripture to your Roman Doctors and that Scripture expounded by the first 800. years either representatively or successively or by a present lawfully called general Council and we shall have conscience yours and ours ruled by prudence and prudence following conscience and by both Unity restored Whether upon the foresaid considerations the Authority of the Protestant Doctors Quest 28 in all things wherein they contradict the Romans is not contemptible and unable to sway the judgement of any prudent Christian to frame any moral esteem of it for though in matters wherein they are seconded or not contradicted by an Authority incomparably greater than their own they may deservedly be esteemed for their Naturall Abilities and Morall Qualities worthy of Credit yet in all things wherein they stand in opposition and contradiction against an Authority incomparably exceeding theirs they deserve nothing but to be sleighted and contemned by all those who are to be led by the sole force of Authority Thus when Protestant Doctors affirm that either the Scriptures or Fathers are for them and against the Roman Church what they say in this is not to be regarded seeing the Authority of the Roman Doctors absolutely greater then theirs unanimously affirm the quite contrary thus when they affirm that the Roman Church is full of Errors and Superstitions crept in they know neither when nor how their accusation is to be sleighted being clearly and constantly contradicted by a far greater Authority Thus when they say that Protestants may be saved living and dying wilfully in their Religion they deserve no Credit at all for the quite contrary is most constantly defended by the incomparably stronger Authority of the Roman Doctors the like is to be affirmed in all points of difference betwixt the two Religions so that a Protestant is not to consider the Abilities and Authority of his Doctors absolutely or in matters out of Controversie but as contradicting an Authority incomparably excelling theirs
was one of those blind Guides which whosoever blindly followes is threatned by our Saviour that both he and his Guide shall fall into the Duch Thâ—â— I hope you will grant it was not Pride but Conscience that moved me so to do for as it is a wise humiliation to obey those whom God hath set over me so it is a sinfull Credulity to follow every man or every Church that without warrant will take upon them to be my Guides Shew then some good and evident title which the Church of Rome hath to this office produce but one reason for it which upon triall will not finally be resolved and vanish into uncertainties and if I yield not unto it say if you please I am as proud as Lucifer In the meane time give me leave to think it strange and not far from a Prodigie that the Doctrine of the Roman Church being the Guide of Faith if it be true Doctrine should either not be known to the four Evangelists or if it were known to them being wise and good men they should either be so envious of the Churches happiness or so forgetfull of the work they took in hand which was to write the whole Gospell of Christ â—s not so much as one of them should mention so much as once this so necessary a part of the Gospell without the belief whereof there is no Salvation and with the belief whereof unless men be snatcht away by suddain death there is hardly any Damnation It is evident they do all of them with one consent speak very plainly of many things of no importance in comparison hereof and is it credible or indeed possible that with one Torrent or rather conspiracy they should be so deeply silent concerning this Unum necessarium You may believe it if you can for my part I cannot unless I see demonstration for it For if you say they send us to the Church and consequently to â—he Church of Rome this is to suppose that which can never be proved viz. That the Church of Rome is the onely Church and without this supposition upon the division of the Church I am as far to seek for a guide of my faith as ever as for Example In that great division of the Church when the whole world wondred saith St. Hierome that it was become Arrian when Liberius Bishop of Rome as St. Athanasius St. Hierome and St. Hillary testifie subscribed their Heresie and joyned in Communion with them or in the division of the Greek and the Roman Church about the Procession of the Holy Ghost when either side was the Church unto it self and each part heretical or schismatical to the other what direction could I then an ignorant man have found from that Text of Scripture Unless he hear the Church let him be unto thee as an Heathen or a Publicane or upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it Again give me leave to wonder that neither St. Paul writing to the Romans should so much as intimate this their priviledge of Infallibility but rather the contrary put them in fear in the 11. Chapter because they as well as the Jews were in danger of falling away That St. Peter your pretended Bishop of Rome writing two Catholick Epistles mentioning his departure should not once acquaint the Christians whom he writes to what guide they should follow after he was taken from them That the Writers of the New Testament should so frequently forewarn men of Hereticks false Christs false Prophets and not once arme them against them with letting them know this onely meanes of avoyding their danger That so great a part of the New Testament should be employed against Antichrist and so little indeed none at all about the Vicar of Christ and the Guide of the Faithfull That our Saviour should leave this onely means for the ending of Controversie and speak so obscurely and ambiguously that now our Judge is the greatest controversie and the greatest hindrance of ending them That there should be better evidence in the Scripture to entitle the King to this Office who disclaims it than the Pope who pretends it That St. Peter should never exercise over the Apostles any one Act of Jurisdiction nor they ever give him any one title of Authority over them That if the Apostles did know that St. Peter was made head of them when our Saviour said Thou art Peter they should still contend who should be the first and that our Saviour should not tell them that Peter was the man That St. Paul should say He was in nothing inferior to the very chief Apostles That the Catechumeni in the primitive Church should never be taught this foundation of their faith That the Fathers Tertullian St. Jerome and Optatus when they flew highest in commendation of the Roman Church should attribute no more to her than to all other Apostolical Churches That in the controversie about Easter the Bishops and Churches of Asia should be so ill catechiz'd as not to know this principle of Religion The necessity of conformity with the Church of Rome That they should never be pressed with any such conformity in all things but onely with the particular Tradition of the Western Churches in that point That Fryverus and many other Bishops notwithstanding Ad hanc Ecclesiam necesse est omnem convenire Ecclesiam should not yet think that a necessary nor a sufficient ground of Excommunication which the Church of Rome thought to be so That St. Cyprian and the Bishops of Africk should be so ill instructed in their Faith as not to know this Foundation of it That they likewise were never urged with any such necessity of Conformity with the Church of Rome nor charged with Heresie or Error for denying it That when Liberius joyned in Communion with the Arrians and subscribed their Heresie the Arrians then should not be the Church and Guide of Faith That never any Hereticks for five Ages after Christ were pressed with this Argument of the Infallibility of the present Church of Rome or charged with the deniall of it as a detestable Heresie for that Aeneas Silvius should have cause to say Ante tempora Concilii Nicaeni quisque sibi vivebat parvus respectus habebatur ad Ecclesiam Romanam That the Ecclesiasticall story of those times mention no Acts of Authority of the Church of Rome over other Churches as if there should be a Monarchy and Kings for some Ages together and should exercise no Acts of Jurisdiction in it That to supply this defect the Decretall Epistles should be so impudently forged which in a manner speaks nothing but Reges Monarchas I mean The Popes making Lawes for and exercising Authority over all other Churches That the Africane Churches in St. Austins time should be ignorant that the Pope was Head of the Church and Judge of Appeales jure divino and that there was a Necessity of Conformity with the Church of Rome in