Faith Secondly we will enquire and set downe the acknowledged continuance of that time during all which season the now present Faith of Rome hath continued That is how longe Papistry as you commonly tearme it hath bene publikly professed and taught throughout all Christendome Thirdly and lastly we will then take a view of the times betweene these two former seuerall times for these two times being once acknowliged on all sides to wit the time during which the Church of Rome confessedly kept her first Faith taught by the Apostles and the time during which the present Romane Faith hath continued from this day vpward it ineuitably followeth that this supposed change of Religion did either happen in the interstitium and meane time betweene the two former Periods of times or els that there hapened no such chang in Religion in the Church of Rome at all Now concerning the first of these times how long in the Protestants iudgements M. Doctour did the Church of Rome retayne without staine or alteration in any point of moment or Article of beliefe for that only is to be enquired the Faith first deseminated by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS I will confesse in all ingenuity that diuers of our owne learned Brethren do teach that Rome retained her purity of Fayth without any such alteration by you intimated till after the deaths of Optatus Epiphanius and Augustine which is during the space of foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ CARD BELLARMINE You say most truely and I do like your playnesse herein since he is truely politike espetially in matters of Religion which require all candour in theire menaging who is not politicke For wheras our Catholicke writers haue much insisted that Tertullian prouoked the Heretickes of his daies to the Succession of the Bishops of Rome your owne D. Fulke giueth this reason touching such his prouocation in these words The argument then drawne from Succession was good because the Church of Rome retained by Succession vntill Tettullians dates that Faith which it did first receaue from the Apostles To whose iudgment in this particular reason your selfe M. Doctour in your booke writen against me subscribs thus saying from hence we do vnderstaÌ„d why TertulliaÌ„ did appeale to those Churches to wit because the Churches did then hould the Apostolicall Doctrine by a perpetuall succession But to descend further in time touching the graunted preseruation of the Faith of Rome wheras in like manner some Chatholicke Authors haue alledged the same argumeÌ„t drawne from the Succession of Bishops by the example of Irenaeus Cyprian Optatus Hierome Vincentius Lyrinensis and Augustine all which Fathers most rested in the Succession of the Bishops of Rome still continued till their daies your foresaid D. Fulke answereth in behalfe of the sayd Fathers in this sort That these Fathers especially named the Church of Rome it was because the Church of Rome at that time as it was founded by the Apostles so it continued in the Doctrine of the Apostles With whome accordeth D. lewell saying Aswell Augustine as also other godly Fathers rightly yealded reuerence to the Sea of Rome c. for the purity of Religion which was there preserued a loÌ„g time without spot To conclude Caluine himselfe euen in the same manner answereth the foresayd argument of Succession of Bishops in the Church of Romê insisted vpon by Irenaeus Tertullian Origen Augustine Optatus Epiphanius and others for thus Caluine speaketh Cùm extra controuersiam esset nihil à principio vsque ad aetâ—â—tem illam mutatum fuisse in doctrina c. Seing it was a Poynt out of Controuersy that nothing in doctrine froÌ„ the beginning to that very age was changed these holy Fathers did take that which they thought sufficient for the destroying of all new Errours to wit the doctrine constantly and with an vnanimous consent retayned euen from the Apostles dayes till their tymes Thus Caluine To these fromer I may alledge that Sentence out of D. Fulke saying The Popish Church c. departed from the Vniuersall Church of Christ long since Augustins departure out of this lyfe Thus he granting that till S. Augustins death the Church of Rome was the true Church so euident and clere we se it is that the Church of Rome neuer changed her Religion from the Apostles first Planting of it vntill the times of S. Augustin Epiphanius Optatus c. which was as is aboue sayd foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ Thus farre M. Doctor concerning the durance of the tymes euen by the Protestants frequent confessions that no change of fayth was made in the Church of Rome Tonching which poynt Irefere you for greater satisfaction to certaine quoted places of the aforesayed Fathers to wit of Hierome Ireâ—aeus Augustine Vincentius Lyrâ—neâ—sis Ambrose c. All which Fathers in their writings do constantly auerre that the Faith preached in their dayes in the Church of Rome was the true Fayth and consequently was neither then nor afore subiect to change or alteration Now all this being made thus euident it followeth according to our designed Method that we consider the number of those ages during the lenght of all which from this day vpwards the present Roman Fayth hath by the lyke Confession of the Learned Protestants bene generally taught Seing how long the Protestants bene generally taught Seing how long the Protestants do grant that the Church of Rome hath from this day contined in her present Faith so long it followeth by their owne implicit censures and most necessary inferences that the Church of Rome neuer altered her Fayth Therfore M. Doctour I would know of you what your learned Men do generally teach about the continuance and antiquity of our present Roman and Catholicke Religion D. WHITAKERS I will not deny but that our Doctours do ascrybe an antiquity to your Popish Fayth for a thousand yeares at least For first D. Humfry my worthy sy'mmachos cai symmy'stes shewing what Religion Augustine planted in England being sent by Gregory the Great then Pope of Rome who liued in the yeare 590 thus instanceth in the particular points of the then Roman Religion In Ecclesiam verò quid inuexerunt Gregorius et Augustinus Onus ceremoniarum c. what did Gregory and Angustine bringé into the Church They did bring a burden of Ceremonies They did bring in the Archiepiscopall Pall for the solemnization of the Masse They did bring in Purgatory c. the oblation of the Healthfull Oast and prayer for the dead c. Relicks Transubstantiation c. a new conscecratioÌ„ of Temples c. from all which what other thing is effected then the introducing of Indulgences Monachisme Papisme and the rest of the Chäos of Popish Superstition all this did Augustine the great Monke being instructed herein by Gregory the Monke bring to the English men Thus farre D. Humfry CARD BELLARM. Well then M. Doctour it clearely appeares by this that
the question touching the Infallibility of Gods Chureh â—s also in that other question that the Scripture without the Churches attestation cannot prooue it selfe to be scripture and that all points of beleife do not receiue their proofe from scripture alone seeing that these two poteÌ„tially include in themselues most of all other CoÌ„trouersies Also be most ready in the question touching the continuall Visibility of the Protestants Church seeing the Protestants must grant their Church to haue beene euer visible if they will auerre it to be the true Church of Christ Micheas if euer you dispute with any Protestant I could wish if so the liberty of choicely on your part that you afore-hand well furnish arme your selfe to that end that you would make electioÌ„ to dispute of this point for if you be well experienced therein you shall mightely confound your Aduersary he not being able euen by his owne Brethrens confessions to instance for many Centuries and ages together so much as the being of one Protestant Thus farre Micheas of such obseruations breifly and plainly deliuered without applying most of them to any particular subiect wherewith it is conuenient you should be instructed before you enter into any conflict with any Protestant diuers others may be adioyned to these but that I am afraid I should tyre you with a wearisome repetitioÌ„ of them and your owne experience hereafter will best direct you in such animaduersions MICHEAS My Lord Cardinall I do much prise these your instructions most of them seruing as so many loopeholes through which we may espy the subtle approach of the Enemy or rather as so many Counter-murs to withstand his secret molitions and attempts i Dolus an virtus quis in hoste requirat And though these your premonitions or rather premunitions since by them I may be fore-armed against the assault of the aduersary be now but generally set downe without any particular application as your Lordship saith yet hereafter I will incorporate them in such points or passages of dispute as iust oportunity and occasion may present And here according to your Lordships desire I will labour in those Controuersies consisting cheifly in practise by you specified and I will also most painefully and elaborately furnish my selfe with reading touching the question of the visibility of the Protestants Church The which question I do promise your Lordship according as you wished me shal be the subiect of my next discourse whensoeuer my fortune shal be to contest with any learned Protestant for this point being well and throughly prosecuted I hold it most choaking and mortall to the aduersary as your Lordship aboue did affirme But now my Lord the time is farre spent and I feare I haue detained you ouer long in these your learned discourses And now I confesse I thinke it long till I haue receiued the Sacrament of Baptisme which shall Wash away in me all spots and filth both of Originall and Actuall sinne referring my taking of Priesthood to such oportunity and season as you in your owne wisedome shall hold conuenient CARD BELLARM. Micheas as concerning your intended implanting in Christs Church by Baptisme your desire thereof I much commend seeing in things of this nature to will to do well is a doing well For your actuall Baptising whereby you shall cease to be descended from the loines of your first Parent know you that we are at this present in that Holy-weeke in which the Redeemer of the world was by the Iewes crucified a time among some other seasons of the yeare appointed by the Catholicke Church for the baptising of such Iewes as through Gods infinite Grace are conuerted to the Faith of Christ If therefore it please you to morrow to repaire to the Cathedrall Church of this Citty you shall finde me there prepared to minister to you according to your request the Sacrament of Baptisme with all it Christian rites and Ceremonies And after in conuenient and fitting time I will conferre vpon you the holy Order of Priesthood MICHEAS My Lord Cardinall till then I will take leaue of you acknowledging my selfe to be your Lordships in all obseruancy and wil be ready with the assistance of the highest at the place appointed to expect that happy houre FINIS GOD SAVE THE KING THE CONCLVSION HEre Learned Academians endeth our first Dialogue where you are to suppose that according to their former intended meetinge the next day Micheas is Baptised by the Cardinall who being thereby in Christum tinctus induit Christum and within some short time after he receiueth the holy function of Priesthood by the imposition of the hands of the said Cardinall What is feigned to haue happened to Micheas after his departure from the Cardinall the two subsequent Dialogues will discouer Touching the precedent subiect of this first Dialogue if it please you but to fanne and seuer away what is fictitious and imaginary therein from what is true and warranted with many proofs you shall finde I hope that the arguments produced are of sufficient weight to sway any mans iudgments not drunken with preiudice of Opinion to acknowledg that to this day there was neuer any change yet made in the Church of Rome so much as in one dogmaticall Article of Faith or point of importance which is the matter here in question and that therefore the Protestants inconsiderate malignity is hereby the more discouered who so frequeÌ„tly traduce and conuiciate that Church as the whore of Babilon which we Catholicks do vndertake euen with an expugnable confidence to Prooue that she is the intemerate and chaste spouse of Christ so certaine it is that these Men cease not to peruert the straight waies of the Lord. Now my Conclusion Vvorthy Men shall chiefly rest in a true and reall retorting of that vpon our Aduersaries which doctour VVhitakers and other Protestants do falsly obtrude vpon our Church so shall the accuser rest chargeable with the accusation and the accused become assoiled and freed My meaning is I will briefly here shew that it is the Protestant Faith and Religion which hath made a manifest change and alteration from that Faith and Religion which the Church of Rome sucked from the breasts of her first instructours howsoeuer the Protestants labour by all wit and other meanes to cloath their Innouations in the faire attire of a reuerend and regardable Priority of being I will insist in the chiefest articles mantained at this present by the Protestants and will set downe the maine circumstances necessarily attending as aboue is made playne euery change in Religion To wit the Doctrine which is newly broached the Person by whom it was first taught the Imposition of a new name for the most part vpon the beleeuers of that doctrine drawne from the first Authour in whoÌ„ all his followers were originally contained as the branches of a tree are vertually in the roote The time when euery such Protestant Article was first anciently introduced The Persons
not beene afore beleeued From which it euidently followeth that the Professours of the affirmatiue doctrines were that society of Christians out of which as more ancient the former Hereticks originally departed and went out And with this most remarkeable Men I end remitting to your owne cleare eyed iudgmeÌ„ts now after the perusing of this smale Treatise whether it was the present Church of Rome or the Protestant Church which hath made this so much inculcated change and alteration from that Faith which first was preached and taught in the sayd Church of Rome by the Apostles Laus Deo et Beatae Virgini Mariae THE SECOND PART OF THE CONVERTED IEVV OR THE SECOND DIALOGVE OF MICHAEAS THE IEW Betweene Michaeas the former Conuerted Iew. Ochinus who first planted Protestancy in England in King Edward the sixt his raygne Doctour Reynolds of Oxford Neuserus cheife Pastour of Heidelberge in the Palatinate The Contents hereof the Argument following will show Here is adioyned an Appendix wherin is taken a short Suruey contayning a full Answere of a Pamphlet intituled A Treatise of the Visibility and Succession of the True Church in all ages Printed Anno. 1624. Si dixerint vobis Ecce in deserto est nolite exire Ecce in Penetralibus noâ—â—â—e credere Math. 24. PERMISSV SVPERIORVM Anno. M. DC XXX THE ARGVMENT MICHAEAS after the Disputation had betweene Cardinall Bellarmine and D. Whitakers touching Romes chang in Religion through which he was first made Catholicke and in short tyme after made Priest trauelleth into many Countries to see their Vniuersities and places of learning At the length he arriueth in England where from visiting of Cambridg he cometh to Oxford Then he findeth D. Reynolds Ochinus and Neuserus They mooue him to become Protestant He answereth that the want of performace of the Prophecies touching the Visibility of Christs Church in the Protestant Church induceth him besides other reasons to continue Catholicke Hereupon they all begin a Disputation touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church for former ages prefixing therto by mutuall consent a short Discourse of the Necessity of a continuall Visibility of the true Church Michaeas so fully displayeth the insufficiency of the pretended Instances of Protestants and of all other Arguments vrged for proofe thereof That insteed of Michaeas being to be made a Protestant by this Disputation Ochinus and Neuserus as not acknowledging the present Roman Church to be the true Church and seing the Prophecies not to be fulfilled in the Protestant Church do finally come to this point to wit absolutely and openly to affirme that the Church of Christ as not hauing the Prophecies accomplished in it which were foretould to be performed in the true Church of God touching it Visibilitie is a false Church and that our Sauiour Christ was a Seducer Hereupon they both protest that from that tyme forward they do renounce the ChristiaÌ„ fayth and do embrace the Iewish Religion and so teaching Circumcision and reuiuing the Old law they do turne blasphemous Iewes or Turks Michaeas and D. Reynolds do vse vehement perswasions to them to the contrary but their words preuayle not and so the disputatioÌ„ breaketh off What courses Ochinus and Neuserus do after take for their spreading of Iudaisme is hereafter set downe And all the passages of their Reuolt are manifested partly out of their owne wrytings and partly from the acknowledgment of diuers learned Protestants so as their Apostacy is not feigned but true and reall THE SECOND PART OF THE CONVERTED IEW WHEREIN IS DEMONSTRATED that the Protestant Church hath euer remayned Inuisible or rather hath not bene in Being since the Apostles daies till Luthers reuolt DOCTOVR REYNOLDS MICHAEAS God saue you I much reioyce to see you here in England And I congratulate your coming to this our Vniuersity of Oxford I haue often heard of you through occasion of your former entercourse of disputes with my Brother D. Whitakers though it was neuer my fortune to see you before this present MICHAEAS I greatly thanke you M. Doctour for this your kindnesse touching my coming hither you may know that since my last seeing of D. Whitakers I haue passed through diuers Countries and Nations moued thereunto notwithstanding my greate age through my owne innate desire of seeing places and Vniuersitis of erudition and learning Now at the last I am arriued in England and am immediatly comne froÌ„ visiting the Vniuersity of Cambridge a place in my iudgment much exceeding all prayses heretofore deliuered of it But may I make bolde to enquire of you who those two gentlemen here present are whose externall comportments do euen depose that their mindes are fayrely enriched with many Intellectuall good parts for it is certaine that a mans outward cariadge is commonly the true shadow of the minde cast by the light of the inward soule DOCTOVR REYNOLDS You haue coniectured aright For both these are men of great emineÌ„cy for learuing The elder of theÌ„ is called Ochinus who being accompained with the learned Peter Martyr did in King Edward the sixts tyme first plant in England the doctrine of Caluin after the Romish Religion was once abolished One whose presence in those dayes made EnglaÌ„d happie whose after absence made it Vnfortunate whom all Italy for he is an Italian could not equall This other is Neuserus the chiefe Pastour of Heidelberge in the Palatinate a man whoÌ„ Nature his owne Industrie haue not placed in any lower roome of knowledge for he is transcendently learned and hath much labored in dilating the Ghospel of Christ Both these men are reciding here for the time by reason of some late emergent occations and businesse tending to the aduancement of Christs Church I could wish Michaeas you were acquainted with them MICHAEAS Gentlemen I greete you both in the salutation of the chiefe Apostle gratia vobis pax multiplicetur And I am glad that I am comne to that place where the very wals and streets in regard of such mens presence do euen Eccho forth learning and all good literature OCHINVS Worthy Michaeas for so I heare you called I willingly entertayne your acquaintance for learning I prize highly in any man as holding it the chiefest riches next to true Religion wherewith the vnderstanding is endowed NEVSERVS And I as happily do congratulate your arriuall here for what company of men are more to be esteemed then the Society of learned Men where themselues though few in number are a sufficient Auditory to themselues Satis magnum alteri alter theatrum they interchangeably giuing and receiuing all content by their leatned discourses DOCTOVR REYNOLDS Haue you had Michaeas a full sight of our Vniuersity Colledges If not we are ready to accompany you throughout all the chiefe places thereof MICHAEAS I haue already seene them all and particularly your late erected schooles wherin are dayly ventilated all questions worthy the iudiceous eares of Schollers and your spatious liberary the very
Work A matter so euident and confessed by our aduersaryes as that D. Fulke thus exprobrateth the Catholicks in these words You can name the notable personages in all ages obserue these words in all ages and their gouerment and ministery and especially the succession of the Popes you can rehearse in order and vpon your fingars Thus D. Fulke 3. Thirdly We prooue the former assertion of our Catholicke Church its Visibility during the first six hundred years after Christ and consequently during the whole period of the Primatiue Church by taking a view in generall how the cheife auncient Fathers of those tymes are pryzed and entertayned by the Protestants who indeed dispensing with all Ceremonyes herein do absoluâ—ly reiect them as inexcusable and grosse Papists For as for these last thousand yeares It is acknowledged by all Protestant whosoeuer that our Church hath bene most visible tyrannyzing they say ouer the true Church for so many ages And according hereto M Powell sayth From the yeare of Christ six hundred and fyue the professed company of Popery hath been very visible and conspicuous But to proceede If the most auncient most reuerend Fathers of the Primatiue Church I meane Ignatius Dionysius Areopagita Iustinus Ireneus Tertulâ—an Origen Cyprian Athanasius Hilarius the Cyrills the Gregoryes Ambrose Basill Optatus Gaudentius Chrysostome Ierome Austin and diuers others be accounted by our aduersaryes most earnest Professours of our Catholicke and Roman fayth then followeth it ineuitably that our Catholicke Church was most conspicuous in those dayes since those Fathers were then the visible Pastours of the Church and then consequently the Church whereof they were Pastours must needs be visible That these primatiue Fathers were Papists as our Aduersaryes tearme vs appeareth euidently out of these few confessions here following which for breuity I haue discerped out of the great store of like acknowledgments of this point occurring in our aduersaryes bookes And first Peter Martyr thus confesseth of this point As long as we insist in the Fathers so long we shal be conuersant in their errours Beza thus insulteth ouer the Fathers Euen in the best tymes meaning the tymes of the Primatiue Church the ambition ignorance and lewdnes of the Bishopps was such as the very blind may easily perceaue that Satan was president in their Assemblyes or Conncells D. Whitguift thus conspireth with his former Brethren How greatly were almost all the Bishops and learned wryters of the Greeke Church Latin also for the most part spotted with doctrines of freewill of merit of Innocation of Saints and such like meaning such like Catholicke doctrines Melancthon is no lesse sparing in taxing the Fathers who thus confesseth Presently from the beginning of the Church that is presently after Christ his Ascension the auncient Fathers obscured the doctrine concerning the Iustice of Fayth increased ceremonyes and deuised peculiar Worshipps But Luther himselfe shall end this Scene who most securiously traduceth the Fathers in these words The Fathers for so many ages meaning after the Apostles haue bene blind and most ignorant in the Scriptures They haue erred all their lifetyme and vnlesse they were amended before their deaths they were neither Saincts nor pertayning to the Church Thus Luther And thus much touching the Fathers of the Primatiue Church being professours of our present Catholicke Fayth and Church and consequently that our Catholicke Church was most uisible and florishing in those primatiue tymes 4. Fourthly The former inexpug 〈…〉 verity is proued from that the Church of Rome neuer suffered change in fayth since it first plantation by the Apostles Now if the Church of Rome neuer suffered chauge in Religion if it hath euer continued a Church since the Apostles dayes and lastly if at this day it professeth our present Catholicke fayth then followeth it demonstratiuely that there were visible Professours of our Catholicke fayth in the Church of Rome euer since the Apostles and consequently that our Catholicke Church hath euer bene uisible since those tymes To proue that the Church of Rome neuer brooked change of fayth since the Apostles dayes I referre you to the first former Dialogue of the Conuerted Iew. 5. Fiftly and lastly our foresaid Assertion is acknowledged for true vndoubred euen from the penns of our learned Aduersary who most frequently in their wrytings do intimate so much And here I am to craue pardon if I iterate some few testimonies and acknowledgments of Protestants aboue produced in this Dialogue Which as they there did prooue an inuisibility of the Protestant Church in those former Ages so here also diuers of them prooue so neerely do these two points interueyue the one the other a continuall visibility of our Catholicke Church during the said tymes To come then to these confessions of the Protestants in this point touching the euer visibility of the Catholicke Church I will ascend vp by degrees euen to and within the Apostles dayes And this because some Protestants as lesse ingenuous and vpright in their writings do affoard to our Catholicke Church a shorter tyme or Period of visibility then others of their more learned and well-meaning Brethren are content to allow First then M Parkins thus sayth During the space of nyne hundred yeares the Popish Heresy hath spreed it selfe ouer the whole earth This point is further made cleere from the Penns of the Centurists and Osiander all which do in euery of the Centuryes from S. Gregories tyme to Luther name and record all the Popes 〈◊〉 cheyfe Catholicke Bishops and diuers others professing our Catholicke fayth according to the Century or age wherin eich of them liued But to ascende higher M. Nappier confesseth of a longer tyme thus saying The Popes Kingdome hath had power ouer all Christians from the tymes of Pope Sâ—luester and the Emperour Constantyn for these thousand two hundred and sixtie yeares And also againe from the tyme of Constantyn vntill theese our dayes euen one thousand two hundred and sixty yeres the Pope and the Cleargy hath possessed the outward visible Church of Christians But M. Napper in an other place dealeth more bountifully with vs herein for thus he witnesseth During euen the second and third ages the true temple of God and light of the Gospell was obscured by the Roman Antichrist Sebastianus Francus alloweth the Visibility of our Church from the tyme immediatly after the Apostles thus wrytinge Presently after the Apostles tymes all things were turned vpsyde downe c. And for certaine through the worke of Antichrist the external Church together with their fayth and Sacraments vanished away presently after the Apostles departure With this Protestant D Fulke conspireth thus saying The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes Which being spoken by him of the Protestant Church then may we infer that the Church of Rome and it fayth as presumed to be by the iudgment of this Doctour the false Church was visible immediatly
he aboundantly declareth that Wâ—clefe was condemned by the Church of Rome for his defence of many errours and Heresyes he subtilly beareth the Reader in hand though he expresseth not any of them in particular that all these Heresyes condemned in him were points of protestancy thereby to make show what a great number of protestant articles were beleiued in those dayes and how much the said Men did participate in doctrine with the protestants of these tymes But this is a meere sleight and imposture seeing it is euident that besides some few points of protestancy beleiued by Wiclefe Huâ— the Waldenses or Albigenses there were many more Heresyes mantayned by them then condemned by the Church of Rome Which are acknowledged for Heresyes both by Catholicks and Protestants and such as in no sort concerne the Protestant Religion as way euidently appeare from the perusing of the seuerall passages of the former Dialogue wherein the heresies of Wiclefe Hus the Waldenses and others are at large displayed From Wiclefe the pamphleter commeth to Geffray Chaucer And thus he is forced by his owne poetizing and forging art to beg some prouffe from Poets Of Chaucer he thus wryteth He did at large paint out the pryde lasciuious vicious and intellerable behauiour of the Popes Cardinalls and Cleargy c. adding much more securiliâ—y of his owne and setting downe certaine verses of Chaucer But what prooueth this For first we are not in reason to giue credit to euery verse dropping from the satyricall penne of Chaucer Secondly admit all were true that Chaucer writeth yet seeing his reprehensions do only touch manners and conuersation and not fayth it followeth not that Chaucer was a protestant as I haue intimated in the former examples or that the Protestant Religion was in his dayes professed which is the only point here to be prooued Thirdly if it must be concluded that Chaucer for such his wryting was a protestant then by the same reason may Spencer the Poet for his bitter taxing of the Cleargy in his Mother Hubbardstale and Daniel for his controuling of the present tymes touching Religion and Learning in his Musophilus be reputed Catholicks or Papists yet it is well knowne they both were Protestants and the later rather a puritan The Pamphleter next insisteth in one Walter Bruit an English Man liuing anno 1393 and puteth him forth for a protestant for his defending of diuers supposed doctrines of protestancy there set downe To this I answere first he alledgeth no authenticall writer affirming so much but only an obscure Register of the Bishop of Hereford and therefore it may iustly be suspected to be meerely suppositions and forged or rather that it is but feigned that such a writing is seeing such a writing may with more facility be coyned without any discouery of deceat therein as being to he found only among the Antiquityes belonging to the sayd Bishop who is a protestant Secondly suppose all for true yet seeing that Scedule prooueth the sayd Bruite to be a protestant but only in some points it followeth that he was Catholicke in the rest and therefore can no more be challenged for a protestant then for a Catholicke being the fayth of a professour in any Religion ought to be entyre perfect compleate otherwise no man can take his denomination and name from the same fayth Thirdly suppose him to be a Protestant in all points yet seing he is but one particular man that it cannot be prooued that others did communicate with him in doctrine his example cannot prooue the visibility of the Protestant Church since one man alone cannot be accounted for a Church Lastly this example serueth admitting it for true but for the tyme that Bruyte liued It not being able to be prooued that the doctrines of Protestancy imputed to him were taught and beleiued in all other Ages and Centuryes This donne the Pamphleter proceedeth to diuers burnt and put to death for their Religion in the dayes of King Henry the fourth the fift and the sixt King Edward the fourth and King Henry the seauenth Which testimonyes he taketh out of that lying Legend of Fox to which booke no more credit is to be giuen then to Esop fables But to these examples I reply first The Treatiser setteth not downe the Protestant articles mantayned by these men for their defence of which they are here presumed to be burned And therefore it well may be that they suffered death for their broaching of some other heresyes or blasphemyes not controuerted between the Protestant and the Catholicke therefore such Examples are wholy impertinent Secondly if we do admit the authority of Fox herein yet it proueth that those men lost their liues but for one two or three particular points at the most of protestancy mantayned seuerally by eich of them they embracing all other poynts of Catholicke Religion being both more in number and of greater importance And if it be otherwise then let this Authour prooue 〈◊〉 were Protestants in all chiefe Articles of Protestancy Now how insufficiently such examples can be suggested for the visibility of the Protestant Church in former Ages appeareth both from that already set downe in this Suruey as also more fully from the perusall of the former Treatise And here the Reader is to obserue that as such men aboue mentioned cannot iustly be taken for Catholicks so may they truly be ranged for hereticks seing a stubborne and contumacious beleife but of one heresy maketh a man an hereticke Whereas it must be an â—nanimous fayth of all points of true Religion without exception of any which is exacted for making a man a true beleiuer For the nature of true fayth doth here participate of the nature of an action morally vertuous Which is become defectiue through the want of one due circumstance only but is made perfect and complete by the necessary presence of all due circumstances After the former examples he commeth to Marsilius de Padua an acknowledged Hereticke Who cheifly erred in denying the Popes authority Now the Pamphleter to make his doctrine in this one point to seeme more diuers in seuerall points from the doctrine of the Catholicks subtilly deuideth it in setting it downe into seuerall branches But to what end is this example pressed Seing it was the errour but of one Man at that tyme and principally but in one Controuersy He comparting with the Catholicks in the doctrine of the Reall presence Purgatory Freewill praying to Saints merit of Works Traditions c. In the next place he vrgeth two Italian Poets Dante 's and Petrach for Protestants because they did wryte somewhat in depressing the Popes Authority in behalfe of the Emperour Now to discouer more fully the Pamphleters falshood in his producing these two Italian Poëts Dante 's and Petrach as supposed by him to teach that the Pope is Antichrist and Rome Babilon I will heare proue from their owne wrytings the meere contrary to this his
THE CONVERTED IEW OR CERTAINE DIALOGVES BETWEEâ— MICHEAS A LEARNED IEW. And others touching diuers points of Religion controuerted betweene the Catholicks and Protestants Written by M. IOHN CLARE a Catholicke Priest of the Society of IESVS Dedicated to the two Vniuersities of OXâ—â—RD and CAMBRIDGE The leafe following sheweth the Interlocutours 〈…〉 Iudaeis nou a lux â—riri visa est Hesther 8. PERMISSV SVPERIORVM Anno. M. DC XXX The Interlocutours of euery Dialogue 1. In the first Dialogue is disputed whether the Church of Rome hath made any change in fayth and Religion since the first plantation of it by the Apostles It is proued that it hath not The Interlocutours are Cardinall Bellarmyne of worthy memory Michaeas a learned Iewish Rabine Doctour Whitakers of Cambridge Ad Romanos perfidia non potest habere accessum Cyprian lib. 1. epist 3. 2. In the second Dialogue entituled The second part of the Conuerted Iew is discussed whether in euery age since the Apostles or rather whether but in any one Age sinâ—e that tyme till Luthers dayes there can be giuen any Instances of Professours of Protestancy It is proued that no such Instances can be giuen The Interlocutours Michaeas the foresaid Iew. Ochinus who first planted Protestancy in England in King Edward the sixt his raigne Doctour Reynolds of Oxford Neuserus Chiefe Pastour of Heidelberg in the Palatinat Si dixerint vobis Ecce in deserto est nolite exire Ecce in penetratibus nolite credere Math. 24. 3. In the third and last Dialogue styled The arraingnment of the Conuerted Iew. It is discoursed Whether the Protestants of the Catholiks do stand more chargeable with disloyalty to their lawfull Princes It is proued that the Protestants stand more chargeable In this last dialogue are diuers other points of Catholike Religion breifly handled The Interlocutours The right Honourable the Lord Cheife Iustice of England Michaeas the former Iew. M. Vicechancelour of Oxford Vidi mulierem ebriam de sanguine Sanctorum Apocalyp 17. THE ARGVMENT OF THE FIRST DIALOGVE MICHAEAS a learned Iewish Rabine by his diligent comparing of the Prophecies of the Old Testament touching IESVS CHRIST with the exact accomplishment of them recorded in the New Testament forsaketh his former Iudaisme and imbraceth the Christian Religion But in obseruing diuers differences touching faith among Christians and particularly among the Catholiks and Protestants knoweth not to whether side to range himselfe At this tyme it so faleth out that there is a generall meeting of many famous learned Men of all Religions in the greate Citty of Cosmopolis in Vtopia among whom Cardinall Bellarmyne and Doctour Whitakers are thither comne Michaeas hastneth thither and imparteth to the said Cardinall and Doctour his present state openeth to them his vncertainty whether to embrace the Catholike fayth or Protestancy The Cardinall and the Doctour according to the different Principles of each others religion propound to him different meanes of setling his iudgement in poynts of fayth Michaeas for some peculiar reasons forbeareth both their directions He reduceth the tryall of all to this one head to wit that whereas he fyndeth in the New Testament that the true fayth was once planted by the Apostles in Rome He saith that if it can be proued that this fayth euer altered since the Apostles tymes he will become a Protestant if not he meaneth to be a Roman Catholike Hereupon he earnestly entreateth the Cardinall and the Doctour that they would enter into dispute touching the change of fayth in the Church of Rome They both accord to his request and instantly begin a serious graue discourse touching this subiect Cardinall Bellarmyne so presseth Doctour Whitakers with weight of arguments by discouering the weaknes of the Doctours answeres and Obiections as that in the end the Doctour entring into greate intemperance of words against the Church of Rome abruptly breaketh off his discourse and suddenly departeth Michaeas as conuinced with the force of the Cardinals disputation is resolued to become a Roman Catholike and so accordingly receaueth in the end in the Cathedrall Church of Cosmopolis his Baptisme by the hands of the Cardinall by whom also in some short tyme after he is made Priest Thus far concerning the fiction of this first Dialogue TO THE TWO MOST FAYRE SISTERS THE TWO MOST ILLVSTRIOVS VNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDG MOST remarkable and learned Academians in whose due prayses I could willingly here insist were it not that I loath all show of oylye assentation You may be here aduertized touching the ensuing Treatises that I haue made choice to set them downe rather in method of Dialogues then in any other forme of style Because in this ony delicate fastidious age which is quickly cloyed with any thing not accompanyed with Variety it is obserued that interlocutory Periods and vicissitude or alternation of turnes in speech are more gratefull and pleasing then any long wearisome continued and vninterrupted discourse Though the subiect of these Treatises be seuerall mayne points and Controuersies in fayth and consequently Points of Religion and Diuinity yet I presume none of you is eyther so froward or so ignorant as to depraue and calumniate the Methode here vsed by saying that we are not to inuulgar the Mysteryes of sacred Diniuity by way of Poeticall fiction of Dialogues in forging that to be which indeed is not Which aspersion of any such Critick is easily wyped away by the warrantable examples in this kind of S. Ierome Theodoret S. Gregory the Great and others who were not afrayd to treate of the highest matters of fayth in forme of Dialogues Againe such an inconsiderate assertion must needs condemne Poetry in generall seeing Dialogues are a kind of Poetry which how great an errour it were might easily appeare in that Poëtry is masked Philosophy Philosophy Natures true History Nature Gods seruiceable Agent or Handmayd Besids I am of iudgment that the Body of any long Discourse like an vnformed Chäos is best brought into an Orbe of forme and Order by help of interlocutions And lastly admit this kind of Wryting were strange and vnusuall and chiefly sorting to subiects of lesser importance as indeed it is not yet here we must remember that a Phantastike often begins a fashion which graue Men not to be thought Phantasticks are in the end content to follow Now to approach neerer the seuerall subiects handled in all these Dialogues In the first is disputed a Controuersy much agitated and tossed betweene the Catholiks and the Protestants to wit touching the change of fayth in the Church of Rome The Interlocutours are Cardinall Bellarmyne that Heresimastix Michaeas a learned Iewish Rabin and Doctour Whitakers of Cambridg The place of this conference I haue made to be the great citty Cosmopolis in Vtopia since an imaginary place best sorteth to an imaginary disputation in respect of the persons feigned The Cardinall iustifyeth the Catholiks position videlicet that no change in fayth and Religion hath bene made in
only through the proper forme of the loadstone And Whether the turning of the irons point to the North being touched with the loadstone is to be referred to some huge supposed mountayne of loadstone in the vttermost Northparts or to any one place of the Heauens neere to the Northpole or to the intrinse call forme of the loadstone it selfe Whether Algebra be a distinct Art from Arythmetyke or but the same aduanced to it height and perfection Whether in the miracles of Christ and S. Peter exhibited in curing of corporall diseases and the like may be demanded of all true miracles of this nature God did for the tyme infuse a Physicall quality for example in the skirt of our Sauiours garment in the shadow of S. Peter which per potentiam obedientialem as the Scholemen speake did worke vpon the diseases and so cure them Or els God himselfe did immediatly worke these supernaturall effects ad praesentiam illorum at the presence of the skirt and shadow which in their absence otherwise he would not worke And finally to omit diuers others such nyce and abstruse speculations and but to touch a little vpon Diuinity Whether Communicatio Idiomatum flowing from the Hypostaticall vnion in Christ is reall in respect of the different natures in Christ or with reference only to the Hypostasis of both the Natures In these I say and many such like curiosities for so I may tearme them this last only excepted diuers of you haue no doubt spent and perhaps with great commondation many howres by perusing with your owne eyes seuerall Authours by discussing the arguments brought on all sides to fortify their different opinions And yet it mattereth litle on which syde the Truth lyeth in most of these speculations But wheresoeuer it is found in them we may equally and indifferently breake forth with the three Children in praysing of God for his Omnipotency and Wisdome discouered in them saying Benedicite Omnia opera Domini Domino If then you haue bene so industrious and breathles herein and so absorpt in the delight of these lesse necessary studyes O with what a spirituall Leithargy are such of you possessed who in matters of Religion the truth or falshood wherof concerns your soules interminable and endles happynes or misery shall runne on headlong till you come to your graues in an vnexamined and yet resolued opinion agaynst the Catholike fayth with a supine resignation of your iudgments in all poynts of Religion without further tryall to the wrytings for example of Caluin and Beza whose pestiferous Scripts many make their Catechismes Men charged euen by their owne Brethren with the execrable cryme of Sodomy And remember you not that we gather not grapes of thorns nor figs of thisles But herewith most excellent Academians I will end and craue pardon for this my fulnes of speach entreating you to call to mynd those words meliora sunt vulnera diligentis quam fraudulenta oscula odientis And thus remitting you to the perusall of these following Dialogues I will with my incessant prayers solicit the Highest who is Pater luminum and from whom Omne datum optimum omne bonum perfectum descendit so to enlighten your iudgements in your studyes and courses that after this life you may be as truly beatifyed with the Intuitiue knowledge of all things in the most happy vision of God As now here vpon earth you labour to enrich your mynds mith all commendable Discursiue knowledge Yours in Christ Iesus I. C. THE CONVERTED IEW. OR A DIALOGVE WHEREIN IS PROOVED That the Church of ROME hath made no change in Faith and Religion since the first Plantation of it by the Apostles INTERLOCVTOVRS MICHEAS A IEWISH RABBIN CARDINALL BELLARMINE DOCTOVR WHITAKERS MICHEAS MOST ILLVSTRIOVS CARDINAL and most reuerend and learned Doctour Such is the spreading fame of both your perfections in the sacred knowledge of Deuinity as that the report therof hath I confesse euen giuen wings to my old age to hasten my fleight to this noble Citty of Cosmopolis in Vtopia which as being honored through both your presence is for the time become the Rendeuous of all good literature Touching my selfe know you both that I am by birth and till this present also in Religion a Iew by name Micheas who euer haue honoured the Lord of Hoasts the God of Abraham the God of Isaack the God of Iacob and the Lord God of the Hebrews beleeuing with your Apostle Paul God grant with the like happy successe to him in change of my Religion who by his rysing faule as I may tearme it was no sooner strucken downe to the ground then he began to ascēd towards Heauen all things that are written in the Law and the Prophets and instructed according to the verity of the Law of the Fathers Of late I haue diligently perused the writings of your Euangelists the foure Historigraphers of that Holy Man whome you Christians call Iesus I also haue exactly red the Acts of your Apostles these faithfull seruants of the said Iesus who first sowed the seedes of their Maisters heauenly doctrine and after did watter them with their owne bloud To be short I haue bene much conuersant in these Letters Missiues if so they may be called I meane in the Epistles of the said Apostles written to diuers Nations for their better instruction in the Christian Faith as also in that most abstruse worke of your Sauiours Best-beloued commonly called the Apocalyps I haue made most particuler reference of all those writings to the Prophesies recorded in our owne Law and I do freely confesse and indeede with an ineffable griefe that that Holy One whome my Fore-Fathers and in them my selfe did put to the most opprobrious death of the Crosse was and is the Sonne of the Highest and the true Sauiour of the World and therefore I thinke it the lesse wounder that the stony harts of vs Iewes best discouered by such our cruell proceedings were figured by the Tables of Stones wherin the Law was first giuen to vs. Yea I am so inalterably perswaded herein that I do auouch that all the cheife Particularities concerning him were most punctually prophesied by the Antient Fathers of the Iewish Law Thus for example was his Precursor foretold in Esay cap. 40. That he should be borne of a Virgine Esay 7. The place of his birth Micheas 5. The death of the Cheldren at his birth Ierom. 31. His preaching Esay 61. His foure Eunngelists Ezechiel 1. The chusing of his Apostles Psalm 8. His riding vpon an Asse into Ierusalem Esay 62. and Zachary 9 The betraying of him by him who dipped his hand in the dish Psalm 41. The Iewes spittiug in his Face and buffeting of him Esay 50. The Iewes mocking of him Psalm 22. The deuiding of his garmēts Psalm 22. Their giuing to him gaule and Vinegar to drinke Psalm 69. The manner of his death by piercing his hands and feete Psalm 22.
nature of a glasse which is as ready to giue as to receaue on s fauour My foundation is here the words of your owne Apostle I humbly entreate that your learned discourses would raise the wales and I shall attend your speeches with a greedy and listning eare Then in the close of all I may be better assured whether for my Soules eternall felicity I should subiect my selfe as a member to the present Church of Rome or otherwise consociate my selfe with the Protestants the presumed Reformers of the said Church CARD BELLARM. Micheas your iudgment hath made choise of a most important subiect and Christian Religion teacheth vs to be benificiall to all maximè domesticis fidei within which number I hope shortly I may place you And therefore my paines according to my smale ability shall not be wanting to accomplish your request and I much commend your desire herein for who neglecteth his owne Soule is not present to himselfe D. WHITAKERS The Groundworke Micheas of this your desired disputation I acknowledg most firme and I shal be ready to afford my best furtherāce therto though in regard of my owne smale mite of learning I shal be like perhapps to the widdow in the Chospel who gaue lesse then any other and yet was more charitable then any other But touching the Basis and foundation of this future Discourse We do grant that the Church of Rome was holy when Paule gaue it those foresaid praises as also when he further said without intermission I make mention of you alwaies in my prayers When also he said He would come to the Romans in aboūdance of the blessing of Christ and when in freedome he did preach to them the Ghospel of Christ Yea which is more We freely confesse that the Cuhrch of Rome was a famous Church of Christ when Clemence did sit in that seate and when the prophane Roman Caesars did put to death the Bishops of Rome But since those times that most remarkable change of Faith haue violently inuaded and posessed that Church I will vndertake to prooue neither will I draw backe herein but shal be prepared to manifest to you how since the Apostles times the Roman Wolues haue inuaded the Church and ceased not to deuoure the flocke for the badges of the Roman Church are superstition Infidelity Antichrist and Epicurisme CARD BELLARM. How now M. Doctour Such passion in the beginning what Philippicks and inuectiue declamations are these the accustomed lāguage of most of our new illuminated Brethren not sorting to your presumed grauity Therefore either forbeare the like hereafter or let vs forbeare to enter into any dispute for I do not loue to conuerse with those Men whose tongues are vsed to speake nothing but Satyrs D. WHITAKERS My Lord. my feruour to the Ghospel hath thus transported me The zeale of thy howse hath eaten me vp But pardon for euer this my holy impatience and I will promise you to proceede hereafter in all serenity and mildnes and will prooue the change of Religion in the Church of Rome not by conuitiating it with intemperate language but with weight of argument CARD BELLARM. You say well And therefore In the name of the Father the Sonne and the Holy Ghost let vs beginne And here first M. Doctour you are to remember that seing you affirme that Religion is changed in the Church of Rome since that Church was first as it were cultiuated tilled therewith by the labour of the Apostles you are thereby obliged to prooue this your assertion And I as houlding the Negatiue am bound only to answere and to repell your arguments Neuerthelesse I will supererogate with you in methode herein and will vndertake to prooue posituely that Rome since it first being Christian did neuer speake of so much as any on materiall and dogmaticall Article which is the point in question of her primatiue Faith Now for the greter conuinceing of your contrary position I meane to strengthen and fortifie the truth herein euen from the testimonies of your owne learned Men and thus the Protestants penns shall deadly wound the Protestants Faith Therefore tell me M. Doctour if you will quietly subscribe in this time of disputation to the ingenious and plaine Confession of your owne learned and iudicious Brethren D. WHITAKERS Most willingly for the argument must needs be strong and efficatious which is taken from the confession of the Aduersaries and I do freely acknowledg that the Truth is able to extorte testimonies euen frō it Enemies And this point is further warranted with all force of reason for why should learned men confesse against themselues and in behalfe of their Aduersaries were it not that the racke of an vndeniable Truth forceth them theirto CARD BELLARM. It is most true and the matter so standeth indeede and your speech well sorteth to that sentence of S. Augustine to wit That truth is more forcible to wringe out Confession then any racke or torment well then to proceede to the matter And because things contracted in method enter more easily after a piramic all manner as I may say into the eye of the vnderstanding Therefore for the more facilitating of this point here handled you are to coceiue M. Doctour that in any notable change of Religion these things following can be demonstrated and pointed out First the Authour of such a Change Secondly the new opinion or doctrine Thirdly the time in which this new doctrine was first broahed or preached Fourthly the place in which it was taught Fiftly and lastly the persons who did oppugne and resist it at the first All which are found euen in the Church of Christ which neuerthelesse was no new Church but only a certaine mutation or change of the state of the Church according to the predictions of the Prophets For first we knowe the authour thereof was Christ The new Articles of beleefe were principally the Articles of the Trinity and Incarnation the time when this doctrine was first preached was in the fifteenth yeare of Tyberius Caesar The place Iudëa finally the oppugners of it were the Scribes and Pharises Now whereas we are able to demonstrate all these points in the beginning of euery particular sect or Heresie our Aduersaries notwithstanding cannot set downe any one of these circumstances concerning our Church or Faith euer since the Apostles times But because of all these Circumstances the Time of this supposed chāge is chiefly to be weighed I will begin therewith remitting diuers of the other Circumstances to be hereafter discussed by vs and leuing the rest for greater breuity to some other fitting opertunity And as touching the Circumstances of Time I will first discourse therof by meanes of a distribution of three distinct times since Rome first receaued the Ghospel of Christ First then we will take into our consideration how longe it is granted by your Protestants that Rome did perseuer without any alteration in her prematiue
at S. Gregory his sending of Augustine into England which was about a thousand yeares since our present Roman Religion was then wholy and publickely practised in Rome that if the Church of Rome had suffered any change of Faith from that first taught by the Apostles that this change should haue beene made not since but before Gregories time and before he had sent Augustine to plant in England the Fayth of Christ I may adde M. Doctour in further confirmation of D. Humfrey his iudgment herein the iudgment of your owne Centurists who in their Index or Alphabeticall table of the sixt Century at the Word Gregory set downe with particuler figures ofreferences where euery such mentioned opinion may be found as followeth Eiusdem Error de bonis operibus de CoÌ„fessione de coÌ„iugio de Ecclesia de sanctorum â—nuocatione do Inferno de Libero arbitrio de â—ustificatione de Purgatorio de Paeniâ—entia de satisfactione c. And which is more your sayd CeÌ„turists do further accuse Gregory out of his owne writings with consecration of Altars Chalices Corporals with oblatioÌ„ of sacrifice for the dead with translation of Reltques with Monachisme with Pilgrimages with consecration of Churches with Masse spriâ—kling of holy-water With consecration of the fort of Baptisme of Chrâ—â—sâ—â—e Oyle with celibratio of Masse finally With claime of soueraignty ouer all Churches All which places of the Centurists charging him are to be found in their sixt Century after the first edition thereof To these former acknowledgmeÌ„ts we may adioin the words of Luke Osiander your famous Protestant which are these Augustinus Romanos Ritus et consuetudines Anglicanis Ecclesus obstitit And then immediatly after he perticulerly setteth downe seuerall rites doctrines practized and beleeued at this present by the Church of Rome which as he confesleth Augustine did plant establish in England a poynt so euident that euen your owne selfe M. Doctour auertes that Boniface the third who liued anno 605. and presently after the foresaid Gregory and all his successours were Antichrists Yea you speaking of the conuersion of England made by this Gregory and of other conuersions of Countries by other Popes after thus conclude The Conuersions of so many countries were not pure but corrupt With you herein Dauaeus that remarkable Protestant conspirech who thus basely censureth of Gregories conuerting of England Purgatio illa quam Gregorius primus fecit c. fuit iâ—ebriatio mer etricis mundo facta de qua est Apocalips 17. et 18. Thus referring our Conuersion to Christianity to the worke of Antichrist And thus M Doctour you here may see how the Church of God through an ouer vnkind peruerting and misconsturing her most motherly and charitable endeauours hath reason even to complaine and grieue at those who vaunt themselues for her owne Children so the Vine being vntimely cut weeps out its mishap through out it owne wound Now from all these former testimonies of your selfe M. Doctour other Protestant writers we may infallibly conclude that from this day till we arriue at least to the age of the fore-said S. Gregory the present Roman Catholicke Religion was taught in diuers Countries consequently seeing those Countries receiued their instruction in Faith from Rome that it was not during all this time introduced into the Church of Rome as an Innouation and change of the Faith afore professed by the said Church Now it being made euident first that the Church of Rome did retaine her purity of Faith the first foure hundred and forty yeares after Christ and also that for this last thousand yeares the present RomaÌ„ Catholicke Faith hath not at any time thereof bin first brought into the world but during the said thousand yeares it hath bin continually the generall taught doctrine of the Church of Rome It now followeth that we take into our consideratioÌ„ the number of years which passed betweene the first foure hundred and forty from Christ and these last thousand yeares from vs. Which number seeing it is sixteene hundred yeares some more from Christ to vs amounteth to about one hundred and sixty yeares Well then if here we can prooue that no change of Fayth in the Church of Rome within the compasse of this 160. yeares then followeth it vnauoidably that the Church of Rome neuer to this day hath suffered any alteration in Fayth and Religion since its first embracing of the Christian Fayth That no Change of Faith did happen within the compasse of the sayd 160. yeares I prooue seuerall waies yet all conducing to erect this one maine truth like as diuers lesser numbers though counted after different waies make vp but one and the same great number And first this assertion of mine is prooued from the doctrine which was beleeued and generally taught at such tyme as Constantine who was our first Christian Emperour was conuerted to Christianity which was about the yeare 320. after Christ and therefore before the foresayd 160. yeares That the Faith in his time was the same that the Church of Rome professeth at this present appeareth from the frequent testimonies of your former Centurists who most elaborately punctually do record all the particuler Articles of the present Romane Fayth to be beleeued most constantly by the said Constantine and that he did cause to be put in practise all the Ceremonies now vsed in the Church of Rome And the said Centurists are so exact and diligent in their enumeration of all the Catholicke Doctrines beleeued by Constantine and of the Catholicke Rites and Ceremo ies obserued in his time as that they spend seuerall Columnes of the fourth Century touching this point to wit from Column 452. to Column 497. or thereabout Now that not only Constantine himselfe but also the whole fourth Age did generally beleeue and professe the now professed Doctrine of the Romane Church is in like sort abundantly confessed registred by the said Centurists they spending most of the leaues of the said Century in particularizing the now Catholicke Doctrines and the doctours of that age beleeuing teaching them and therefore for the greater manifestation of this point I remit you M. Doctour to the â—â—ligent perusall herein of their fourth Century touching which particuler subiect I am so confident that I dare auouche that by the industry of the said Centurists the true state of the Church in that age is so painfully articulatly according to my former speaches registred as the perfect memory thereof as being exempt from all obliuion in future dayes is able to turne the syth of time so certaine it is that euen in your owne Histories so long as they shal be extant the Catholicks shal be euer able to glasse the true face of their times But M. Doctour for the greater euidency of this point I pray you tell me whether it is your iudgment that the Fathers liuing in the fourth Age but especially those who
of you the second time for all the Protestants do not precisely consent herein how longe do you thinke that the Church of Rome did continue in her Verginall state and Purity without any stayne in her Faith D. WHITAKERS I thinke that during the first six hundred yeares after Christ the Church was pure florishing and inuiolably taught and defended the Fayth deliuered by the Apostles During all which ages the Church of Christ in respect of truth in Faith and Religion was as I may say in the full assent of the wheele And although to speake by resemblance there are found euen many irregularities in the regular motions of the Heauens yet I am fully perswaded that for the space of the first six hundred yeares no annomalous exorbitancies of errours or superstition did accompany the heauenly preaching of the Ghosple in the Church of Christ CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour indeed part of what you here say are your owne words in your booke against D. Sanders and you deale more liberally herein then diuers of your Breehren by affording a hundred and fifty yeares more to the true Church then most of them will allow Now you granting the purity of Faith to continue in the Church of Rome for the space of the first six hundred yeares after Christ do withall implicitly and inferentially grant that no change of Faith was made in that Church within the compasse of the afore mentioned 160. yeares seeing the said 160. yeares are included within the first six hundred yeares as being part of them But to proceed further you are here M. Doctour to call to minde what your selfe at other times no doubt at vnawares haue writen I do finde to instance only in some two or three points that you affirme that Victor who liued anno 160. after Christ was the first that exercised iurisdictō vpon forraine Churches That not Cyprian only who liued anno 240. to vse your owne words but almost all the most holy Fathers of that time were in errour touching the Doctrine of good works as thinking so to pay the paine due to sinne to satisfy Gods iustice Finally that Leo who was Pope anno 440. to speake in your owne dialect was a great Architect of the Antichristian kingdome Are not all these your assertions M. Doctour D. WHITTAKERS I cannot but acknowledge them for mine since they are extant to be read in my owne bookes loath I am to be so vnnaturall as to disauow or abandon any issue begotten on my owne brayne CARD BELLARM. Marke well then M. Doctour my deduction If the Chucrh of Rome remayned in her purity of Fayth without any change for the first six hundred yeares for your owne confessiō aboue expressed is that the Church of Christ so long continued a chast and intemerate Spouse And if as your owne penne hath left it written the doctrine of the Popes Supremacy was taught by Victor the first The doctrine of Merit of Works was mainteyned by Cyprian generally by other Fathers of that age and to be short if Leo were a great Architect of the kingdome of Antichrist you meaning of our present Roman Religion all which said Fathers to wit Cyprian Victor Leo and the rest did liue diuers ages before the sixt age or Century to what time you extēd the purity of the Faith of the Church of Rome doth it not then ineuitably result out of your owne Premisses if al this be true as you affirme it is that the doctrin of the Popes Supremacy the doctrine of merit of workes and our Catholicke Doctrine generally taught by Antichrist as you tearme the Pope were no innouations but the same pure doctrines which the Apostles first plāted in the Church of Rome Se how your felfe through your owne inaduertēcy hath fortified the truth of that doctrine which your selfe did intende to ouerthrow And thus farre to show that their neuer was made any chāg of Fayth in the Church of Rome prooued from the distribution diuision of those two different times which by the learned Protestants acknowledgments do contayne the Periods of the Church of Rome her continuance in the true Fayth of the Publicke and generall Profession of our now present Romane Fayth D. WHITTAKERS My L. Cardinall Whereas you haue produced seuerall testimonies from our owne learned Protestāts who teach that in the second third fourth age after Christ such such an Article of the Papists Religion had it beginning It seemeth in my iudgment that these their authorities do more preiudice then aduantage your cause Since such testimonies if so you will stand to them do shew a beginning though most anciēt of those doctrines after the Apostles deaths and consequently a change of Faith in the Church of Rome For if you will admit the authorities of the Protestants granting the antiquities of the present Romish Religion in those former times you are also by force of reason to admit their like authorities in saying that at such tymes and not before those Articles were first taught for seing both these points are deliuered by the Protestants in one the same sentence or testimony why should the one part thereof be vrged for true and the other reiected as false MICHAEAS M. Doctour Here with my L. Cardinall and your owne good licence I am to make bould to put in a word or two This your reply M. Doctour by way of inference may seeme to lessen the antiqurty of our ancient Iewish Law and therfore I hold my selfe obliged to discouer the weakenes therof though not out of desire to entertaine any contestation with you Grant then that some miscreants or Heathen Writers as Enemies to the Law of Moyses affirme that the Religion of the Iewes had it beginning in the tyme of Esdras for example This their testimony may iustly be alleaged to prooue that our Iewish Law was as auncient at least as Esdras but it cannot be alleadged to prooue that our Law tooke it first beginning at that time only and not before in the dayes of Moyses Therefore in the Authorities of this Nature produced from our Aduersaries writinges we are to distinguish and seuer that which the Aduersaries granteth in the behalfe of vs from that which he affirmeth to his owne aduantage What he grāteth for vs against himselfe so farre we are to embrace his authority seing it may be presumed that ordinarliy no learned man would confesse any thing against himselfe his Religion but what the euidency of the truth therein enforceth him vnto and therefore one of the ancient Doctours of your Christian Church if I do remember his words in this respect said well I will strike the Aduersaryes with their owne weapons But what the Aduersary affirmeth in fauour of his owne cause and against vs their we are not to stand to his own authority since no man is to be a witnes in his owne behalfe and it well may be presumed that such his sentence
who will seeme to erre eueÌ„ out of iudgment that these doctrines could stealingly creepe into Gods Church without all resistance of it Pastours Doctours and Fathers I bouldly auerte that these men not only giue the lye openly to the holy Scripture in seuerall places witnessing the contrary but they with all cease to be Men by loosing wholy the naturall light of all humane discourse and Reason But M. Doctour to presse the force of this argument further Haue you not read that in the Primatiue Church there were the Heresies of the Valentinians Tationists Maniches Arians and diuers others all which did embroile the Church of Christ euen before the first foure hundred yeares were expyred D. WHITTAKERS Yea. I haue read all these and I do find them recorded in the writings and Catalogues of Heresies composed by Irenaeus Epiphanius Augustine and others who with their learned Penns openly impugned these and diuets other Heretickes which Hereticks for the tyme troubled the waters of the Church more then after they could at their pleasure calme them CARD BLLARM Haue you not also read of the Heresies of the Nestroians Pelagians Donatists Minothelits All which had their beginnings within the compasse of the 160. yeares aboue mentioned which was betweene the first foure hundred and forty yeares next after Christ and the thousand yeares from vs within which compasse of yeares by the Protestants owne writings the Church of Rome did suffer this supposed and imaginary change in Religion D. WHITTAKERS I haue also read of these latter Heresies and do finde the first three amply recorded and writen against by S. Augustine and the fourth to omit our owne Centurists regestring those Heriticks by the sixt Councell of Constantinople for I haue euer obserued in my reading that the arising Heresies in euery age were the Markes whereat the Canons of the Church and Counceles and the learned writers of the ancient Orthodoxall Fathers did shoote CDRD BELLARM. To decend lower Haue you not also seene the records of many Heresies rysing in euery seuerall age after the first six hundred yeares And to leape ouer diuers ages the-Herisies of Berengarius Waldo Wicleffe c if so you will acknowledge them for Heresies D. WHITTAKERS All this I must and do confesse for I finde the Heresies of euery seuerall age to be registred out of the Fathers writings of euery such age by our owne Centurists in the fift Chapter of euery seuerall Century by Osiander in his Centuries and by Pantaleon the Protestant in his Chronology And for the doctrines of Berengarius Waldo Wicleffe c. I acknowledge them not for Heresies Yet I must confesse I finde them to this day extant in diuers Bookes As of Berengarius in the writings of Langfrancus Guitmundus and Algerus Of Waldo I read in Illiricus as also in Osiander Of Wicleffe in his owne writings as also in M. Fox his Monuments and M. Stow his Annalls of England CAD BELLARM. Well then Thus I compound these Simples I meane thus I infer and collect out of your former granted Premisses Seing it is manifest that the Heresies rising within the first foure hundred yeares The Heresies within the next two hundred yeares the Heresies hatched in euery age during these last thousand yeares are most largly recorded partly in the writings of the ancient Fathers in particular and set tracts against them partly in the Canons of generall Councells condemning them partely by the obseruing diligeÌ„ce of Ecclesiasticall Historiographers whose desined labour is to transmit coÌ„mend ouer to after ages the true state and face of Christs Church in former ages since History is the life of Memory and Embassadour of antiquity and partely by the Protestants like endeauours who haue writen seuerall long Volumes of this very subiect Seing I say all this is manifest and that not only the inundation and flux but euen the Ebb and reflux of euery Heresie was precisely noted by the Pilots of Gods Church can it enter into any brayne but to weene that so many Articles of the present Roman Religion being in number far more then all aboue rehersed in weight and consequently greatly exceeding them for diuersity of Countryes and Nations far further deuulged and spreade then either all or any of the former Hereâ—ies euer were most of these other being restrained only to one Contry or Nation could euer so vnespiedly infect the whole Church of Christ with their contagion and worke a more notorious chang therin then euer yet was wrought by al the Heretick since Christs time put together and yet not one Father or Doctour of those times either to take notice of any of those supposed Heretickes or knowing them not to impugne their first assaults by preaching or writing neither any one Ecclesiasticall History but to mention in their Histories any one of the sayd Articles as Innouations in Fayth Can this be imagined or can it be in the power of man thus to create at his pleasure a new Religion without controule or discouery If this can be dreamed then may we with all dreame that Impossibilities can haue a true reall existence and that the Scripture it selfe for want of due performance of its predictions is most false Into such a depth of absurdities M. Doctour these your very supposals and imaginary speculations do precipitate and cast all those who giue any credit vnto them MICHEAS My L. Cardinall and you M. Doctour I must ingenuously confesse to you both that the former Argumentes are much preuayling the one drawne froÌ„ the distribution of times whreby euery age since the Apostles is by the Protestants owne acknowledgmeÌ„ts cleared from all change in Fayth The other from the silence both of the Fathes and Doctours of Christs Church in not â—â—pugning the supposed introducing of the Catholicke Articles as also of all Ecclesiasticall Historiographers in not so much as intimating or but glancing at any one Article as innouated of the Church of Rome And to paterne these times of Grace with the tymes of the Old Law If any frontlesse and bould Man and some such perhaps may easily and without labour be found since we neede not to plough for weeds they freely growing of theÌ„selues should affirme that the Moysaicall Law had suffered greate changes and alterations betweene the times of its being first promulgated by Moyses and the comming of the Messias I should hould it a most choaking and full demonstration for the ouerthrowing the falsehoode of such an assertion if neither instances of any tymes among so many ages passed from Moyses to Christ wherin such a forged Innouation should happen could be giuen neither could it be showed that any of the Prophets or Iewish Rabbines did openly gaynsay or contradict the said imaginarie new arising Opinions who no doubt would haue maintained the Law with sheading of their bloud before any Nouelisme in Fayth should haue inuaded the Synagogue imitating herein the resolution of Sampson who conquered his enemies by his
signify three yeares and a halfe which short compasse of tyme cannot in any sort be applyed to the Bishop of Reme as Antichrist teaching the present Roman Religion seeing he hath coÌ„tinued preaching the sayd Doctrine Religion euen by the Protestants confessions as now I see many hundred of yeares But good my Lord Cardinall if there be any other reasons behinde to impugne this sayd change I would intreate your Lordship to descend to them for in matters of great importance variety seldome breedeth satiety CARD BELLARM. I am willing therto And for the further prosecution therof I am to put you in mind M. Doctour partly according to my former Method set downe in the beginning that wheras the Professours of the Church of Rome were in the Apostles dayes the true Church of Christ as is aboue on all sides confessed and consequently the most ancient Church since truth is euer more ancient then falsehoode and Errours It therfore followeth that all Hereticks whatsoeuer who make choyse of any new doctrine in Fayth do make a reuolt and seperation from that Church of the Apostles according to those words of S. Iohn exierunt a nobis they went out of vs and answerably to that other text certaine that went forth from vs which very words do contayne a Brande or Note vpon the Authour of euery Heresy Since the Apostle and the Euangelist do meane hereby that euer first Hereticke goeth out from a more aucient society of Christians then by him is chosen So as to go out of a precedent Church or society of Christians is not only an infallible note of Heresy in the iudgment of Vincentius Lyrinensis quis vnquam Haereses instituit nisi qui priùs ab Ecclesiae Câ—â—boli ae Vniuer sitatis antiqnitatis consensione discreâ—â—it but euen by your owne Brethren for we finde Osiander among others thus to write Nota Haeretici ex Ecclesia progrediuntur Thus do Hereticks euer forsake the generall most ancient company of Christians as smale Brooks do often leaue the common channell of the mayne Riuer Now here I demaÌ„d of you M. Doctour to shew from what company or society of Christians more ancient did we Catholicks in those former tymes when first you say this chaÌ„ge of Faith was made depart or from what Church afore in being went we out The euidency of this Note is manifested in Caluin Luther the Waldenses the Wicliffians and all other ancient acknowledged Sectaries of whom it is confessed that all of them were originally Members of our Catholicke Church and by their making choise of particuler Doctrines so Iudas the Apostle who departing from the company of the Apostls after became Iudas the Traitour did go and depart out of the present Roman Church and therby became Hereticks The like M. Doctour I do here expect that you should prooue by authority of Ecclesiasticall Histories of the present Catholicke and Romane Church which if you cannot then is the inference most strong that the present Church of Rome neuer made any such reuolt from or departing out of that Church which was established by the Apostles at Rome and consequently that the present Church of Rome neuer suffered any change in Fayth since it first being a Church D. WHITAKERS Your Church hath departed from that Fayth which the Apostles first preached in Rome and I hope this departure and going out without other proofs is sufficient enough And here I answere with M. Newstubâ— one of our learned Brethren That when you require who were they that did note your going out c. This question I say is vnvecessary c. we haue taken you with the manner that is to say with the Doctrine diuerse from the Aposties and therfore neither Law nor Conficience can force vs to examen them who were witnesses of you first departing Thus my Brother M. Newstubs And my Lord as it is far better for one to haue a cleare sight then to enioy the best helps for curing a bad sight so we here prefer the truth of the Doctrine first preached at Rome by the Apostles and manifested vnto vs by the perspicuity of the scripture before all humane reasons and arguments directed to the discouerie of Romes after embraced Innouation CARD BELLARM. What strang Logicke is this and how poore a Circulation do you make The mayne question betweene vs is whether the present Church of Rome hath changed it Fayth or no since the Apostles dayes To prooue that it hath not Iverge that the professours therof did neuer go out of any more ancieÌ„t Church and consequently euer retayned without change it former Fayth Now you in answere hereto as not being able to instance the persons by whom or the tymes when any such departing or going out was made by the Professours of our Religion reply that it Doctrine is different from the Doctrine of the Apostles and therfore the Church of Rome hath changed it Religion since the Apostles tymes and this sophism you know is but Petitio Principij or a beginning of the matter in question and is nothing els but without answering to any of my premisses the denyall of my Conclusion which kynd of answenng I am sure impugneth all Logicke and therfore all Reason since Logicke is but Reason sublimated and refined But to proceed further In euery introduction of a new Religion or broaching of any innouation in Doctryne the Professours therof receaue a new denomination or name for the most part from the first authour of the new doctryne and sometymes from the Doctrine its selfe like vnto a running riuer which commonly taketh the name of that riuer into which it falleth Thus the Arians the Valentinians Marcionists Manicheans from Arius Valentinus Marcian and Manicheus c. or from the doctrine it selfe as the Hereticks Monothelites Agnoitae Theopaschitae c. though this more seldome This Note or Marke of imposing a new name of the Professours of euery arrising Heresy may be exemplified in all Heresies without exception ingendred since the Apostles tymes euen to this day a poynt so exempt from all doubt as that your learned Man M. Doctour Feild thus writeth Surely it is not to be denyed but that the naming after the names of Men was in the time of the Primatiue Church peculiar and proper to Hereticks and Schismaticks with whom agreeth M. Parks both of them borrowing it from the ancieÌ„t Fathers and particulerly from Chrysostome who thus saith Prout Haeresiarchae nomen it a Secta vocatur Well then this being thus acknowledged on all sides If the present Church of Rome hath made a change from her first Primatiue Fayth then the Professours therof by introducing of new Heresies and Opinions became Heretickes and consequently they haue taken according to our former grounde some name either from the first broachers of these new Doctrines or from the doctrines themselues But you cannot M. Doctour shew any such name to be imposed vpon vs
except the name Catholicks which was euen in the Primatiue Church the surname of all Christians according to that Christianus mihi nomen est Catholicus vero cagnomen Illud me nuncupat istud me osteÌ„dit though the contrary we can shew of you who haue the names giuen to you of Lutherans Caluenits Besits c. Therfore it clearely followeth that the Professours of the present Roman Church haue neuer changed their Fayth first planted by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS Now my L. Cardinall you are foiled with your owne argument For haue you not the name of Papists peculiarly appropriated to your selues to distinguish you from the true professours of the ghospel In like sort are not some of your religious Men called Bernardins others Franciscans Benedictins Augustins c. so taking their appellation from particuler Men and thus your owne argument rebutteth vpon your selfe with great disaduantage Therfore my Lord be not so confident aforehand in the force of your alleaged reasoÌ„ but remember that Thraâ—y's prò'erysóù ' ec pollóù cacòs who is euer bould before the worke is attempted is commoÌ„ly indiscreete CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour You so seriously here trifle as that I euen blush in your behalfe to obserue how you wroÌ„g yourfollowers and Proselits with such weake transparency of reasons For you are here to vnderstand that the Surnames of Peculiar Hereticks as the Arians Eutichians Maniches and of all others were imposed vpon the Professours of these Heresies euen at the first beginning and rising of the sayd Heresies and were inuented out of necessity to distinguish their Heresies from all other Doctrines but now the word Papist M. Doctour was coyned but lately by Luther himselfe against vs this not out of necessity but of reproach our Fayth and Doctrine being acknowledged aboue by your leaned Brethren to haue bin in the world many hundred yeares before Luthers dayes Agayne the Word Papist is not restrained to any one Pope or any peculiar Doctrine taught by the present Church of Rome but it is indifferently extended to all Popes and all doctrines taught by the sayd Popes so fowly M. Doctour are you mistaken in alleadging the name Papist against vs and so much do you and other Protestants wrong vs euen for that very name we vndergoing herein by your Brethrens calumnies the like misfortune which Collatinus Tarquinius suffered who was depriued of his honours and subiect to disgrace and reproach by the Romans only for the hatefull name of Tarquinius Touching those names of Franciscans Bernardins Benedictans c. It is so cleare that these names are not imposed for change of Fayth but only for institution of seueral degrees of a vertuous and religious life as that I will answere you in your former Brother D. Feild his words who thus solueth this your obiection We must obserue that they who professe the Fayth of Christ haue bin sometymes in these later ages of the Church called after the special names of such Men as were the Authours beginners and deuisers of such courses of Monastical Profession as they made choyse to follow as Benedictans such like Thus D. Feild MICHEAS I thinke M. Doctour vnder yonr fauour that these your instances of names taken from the first institutours of seueral religious Orders in the Church of Christ do not imply any change of Fayth made by them and therefore the force of my L. Cardinal his argument borrowed from new imposed appellations is not weakned but rather fartified by this your reply My Reason is this in our Iewish Law we read that ther were some called Rechabits and others Nazarites both professing a more strict course of life then the vulgar and common people did In like sort Iosephus and Philo report much of the austerity of the Essenes among vs Iewes who in regard of such their peculiar Profession were called Essenes and to whom God vouchsafed many spiritual fauours and consolations Happy men since he is most fit to walke vpon the hight of celestial contemplation who liueth in the vale of a voluntary humility retyrednes and mortification In whom the fyre of the spirit doth euer extinguish the fire of the flesh and sensuality thus the greater heare putting forth the lesse heate Now shal any man thinke that these men instituted a Fayth and Religion different from that of Moyses It is both absurd to entertayne such a thought and withall it is a wrong and dishonour to the Law of Moyses And in my iudgment both these instances of the Old Testament produced by me and those other of the Franciscans c. obiected by you M. Doctour in a true and eauen libration of theÌ„ do prooue that which my L. Cardinal first endeauoured to prooue from the imposition of new Names For they manifest the seueral changes and alterations which were made both in the old Testament and the new touching a more austere profession of a vertuous life which was the subiect of those changes as these other new imposed names of Arians Nestorians Maniches and the rest aboue specified do necessarily euict a change first made in Doctrine by Arius Nestorius Manicheus c. But my L. Cardinall if you wil enlarge your selfe no further vpon this poynt I humbly intreate you to proceed to some other argument CARD BELLARM. Learned Micheas I wil proceed to that which at this instant shal be my last though for weight and force it might wel take the first place And it shal be taken M. Doctour from the first plantatioÌ„ of Christianity in your owne Country which though immediatly it concerneth but one Nation yet potentially it prooueth that ther was no change of Fayth at all made in the Church of Christ in any former tymes by the Professours of the present Roman Religion But here M. Doctour I am to demand your iudgment touching the times in which and the Person by whom the Britons of Wales were first conuerted to the Christian Fayth D. WHITAKERS All we Protestants agree that the Britons of Wales whre conuerted in the Apostles tyme by Ioseph of Aramathia and this we prooue not only form the authority of Sainct Bede who did write the history therof in the yeare 724. but also from the authority of our Principal Historiographers for thus M. Cambden our learned Countryman writeth Certum est Brit 〈…〉 in ipsa Ecclesiae infantia Christianâ—m Religionem imbibisse It is Certaine that the Britons receaued the Christian Religion euen in the infancy of the Church Who thus further discourseth of this Poynt In hac floruit Monasterium GlastenburieÌ„sis c. Here florished the Monastery of GlasteÌ„bury which taketh it ancieÌ„t beginning from Ioseph of Aramathia c. for this is witnessed by the most ancient Monuments of this Monastery c. nether is there any reason Why we should doubt therof Thus far M. Cambden with whom conspire all other Chroniclers as Harrison in his description of Britanny and others Yea of vs
Augustins comming into England Thirdly it is prooued that at the tyme of the conference betweene Augustine and the Briton Byshops the greatest difference in matters of Fayth and Religion wherupon they stoode were but two poynts cheifly consisting in Ceremony to wit the keeping of Easter day in it vsuall tyme and the forme of Baptizing according to the rites of Rome Fourthly and lastly it is graunted that Augustine here planted and preached to the English all Articles and points of the present Romane Religion or Papistry as you Protestants do vsually style it Now M. Doctour what other resultancy can here be made out of all these Premisses but this To wit that the Church of Rome in Augustins time teaching Papistry was wholy agreeable the two points or Ceremonies of keeping Easter day and of baptising with the Rites of Rome only excepted with the Fayth and Religion which was planted among the Britons by Ioseph of Aramathia in the Apostles daies and consequently that the Church of Rome teaching Papistry did neuer suffer any change in her Faith and Religion since the Apostles departed This is the Argument wherin I graunt I partly insult it is inauoidable it is a demonstration And pryse it Micheas as a strong Aries beating downe bearing before it whatsoeuer may seeme to withstand the Truth in this pointe controuerted MICHEAS In deed my Lord it seemes to me very forcible and you did well to reserue it to the last place that so like sweet-meats it might pleasingly close vp the tast of our iudgments Neuerthelesse the consideration of it doth not diminish with me the force of your other former arguments for though Better be better yet followeth it not but that Good is good D. WHITAKERS My Lord This your argument is tyed togeather with many links and breake but one of them all the rest are loosed And indeed it is but an argument drawne from Authority Negatiuely and by Omission only which you know is little valued in the schooles For the hinge as I may say or weight of it only consisteth in this That at the meeting of Augustine and the Briton Bishops dissented from Augustine But of other greater points we read no mention made among them and therfore for any thing we know the Britons might aswell disagree from Augustine in all other Articles passed ouer in silence as agree with them CARD BELLARM. How improbable how absurd how impossible is this you say And take heede M. Doctour that this your answere be not controuled by your owne secret conscience and beware of much practising the like hereafter since the Character of any bad course impressed by a long habit at length becoms indelible But to the point Consider all the Circumstances of the busines at that tyme handled and then deliuer an impartiall and euen censure The meeting was occasioned only for comparing their Faiths together Augustine imitating therin S. Paul vt conferat cum illis Euangelium quod praedicat in Gentibus The Britons euen by the acknowledgment of M. Fox did beare themselues at the first against Augustine with great pertinacy stubbernes and therfore the lesse probable it is that they would yeeld to him in any point of moment more then was agreeable to their owne Religion The differences betweene them after much disquisition and search are recorded to be only about the two former points of Ceremonies and seeming indifferency The Recorder of this great Passage was principally S. Bede who ex professo did write most elaborately and punctually the Ecclesiasticall History of England in those times and therein was obliged by his designed method not to register the smallest occurrents and wholy to omit the greatest Now then can we dreame that the Doctrines touching the Reall Presence the Sacrifice of the Masse Praying to Saints Purgatory Free-will Iustification by works Images Monachisme the Primacy of Peter and some others all being Articles of greatest importance and particulerly taught by S. Augustine were either not mentioned and not once spoken of in that serious discourse betweene Augustine and the Briton Bishops or they being then painfully discussed and ventilated the Britons being so refractory and stiffe with Augustine in the smalest points would quietly and without resistance embrace all these high doctrines as Innouations and repugnant to their Fayth first planted by Ioseph of Aramathia Or if the Briâ—on Bishops veâ—lded not their assent to these supreame poynts of Fayth of Rome would not such their reluctation and dislike haue bin recorded by S. Bede and other writers of those tymes who would not omit to relate the Britons stifnes and coldnes in the least matters of this History It is great weakenes but to suppose such impossibilities It is madnes and lunacy to beleeue them Therfore my absolute and last resolution here is that the Fayth of Augustine was then one and the same in all Articles with the Fayth of the Britons first preached to them in the Apostles dayes the Ceremonies of Baptising and of keeping Easter day cheifly excepted which lesser errours S. Augustine obseruing the Britons stiffnes thought perhaps would sooner be recalled by a patient sufferance of them for a tyme then by any violent meanes vsed at the first to the contrary like to some diseases which are best cured by continuing the diseases Now for the fuller close of this poynt to wit touching the agreement of the Doctrine taught by S. Augustine with the then Doctrine and Fayth of the Briton Bishops I will adde the acknowledgement of the Briton Bishops themselues of whom S. Bede thus relateth Britones quidem confitentur intellexisse se veram esse viam iustitiae quam praedicaret Augustinus so vnanimous we see were the Britons Augustine in their Fayth and Religion and therfore it was not strange that at the last as D. Fulke affirmeth Augustine did obtayne the ayd of the British Bishops to the conuersion of the Saxons And thus far of this argument the which shall serue as the Catastrophe or end of this my Scene wherin I haue vndertaken though more then by rigour of method I was tyed vnto to prooue by positiue arguments and reasons that the Church of Rome hath neuer suffered any change in her Fayth and religion since the Apostles dayes my cheife allectiue Micheâ—s inducing me therto being only your satisfaction in this your imposed Subiect or Question MICHEAS My L. Cardinall I render you humble thankes and I must say that these your former arguments produced seeme to me very moouing and except M. Doctour be able to repell them with other more forcible arguments they will I coÌ„fesse impell my Iudgment to giue it free and full consent to the beleeuing of that point for the proofe wherof they are by your Lordship alleadged CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour Seeing there is no truth so illustrious and radiant but that in an vndiscerning eye it may seeme to be clowded for the time with the interposition of some weake Obiections
Therfore I would now wish you to proceede to your proofes and to alleadg such arguments against our former Conclusion as your owne reading hath at any time best ministred vnto you Do not rest only in generally saying that the Church of Rome hath altered her Religion except withal you insist in the particular instances when that Church imbraced such such a Doctrine as an innouation and repugnant to the Faith planted by the Apostles And remember that the Truth or falshood of generalities in speech do receiue their best illustration from a curious and precise dissecting of the Particulars This office now is particularly incumbent vpon you for seeing you maintaine that the Church of Rome hath changed its Faith since the Apostles times you are obliged to insist in the particular Doctrines supposed to be changed in the Person and Popes by whom this change was made in the time in which these alterations are presumed to haue happened and the like as aboue I intimated in the beginning of this discourse Therfore M. Doctour begin and I will reply to your Obiections as far as my owne reading and iudgment will afford D. WHITAKERS My Lord I willingly take holde of your prescribed Method and will giue many instances of seuerall Doctrines euen of the greatest moment now in question betweene you and vs when they were first introduced into the Church and by what Popes they were so brought in and I hope that a due and mature ponderation of them will be able to shake and disioynt or rather to lay leuell to the ground the whole Systima and frame of your former large discourse Well then the first Instance of this vndoubted Change which I will alleadge shal be Pope Siritius who was the first that annexed Perpetuall Chastity to the ministers of the word And I hope that it is to be accoÌ„pted no smale change to barre our Clergy of their Christian liberty in so great a matter since we are taught by him who in these later times first taught vs Protestantcy that nothing is more sweeâ—e or louing vpon earth then is the loue of a Woman if a Man can obtaine it And that he who resolueth to be without a Woman let him lay aside from him the name of a man making himselfe a plaine Angell or Spirit CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour before I come to apply particuler answeres to your particuler instances following I must tell you that the force of all such your instaÌ„ces is already ouerthrowne by what is deliuered aboue For if it be already demonstrated that no chaÌ„ge of faith hath bin made at any time in the church of Rome partly by freeing euery age of the Church since Christs time from any change in Religion euen by the acknowledgment of the learned Protestants partly by manifesting that neither the Church of Christ neuer made any resistance against the first supposed change as both in duety it was bound to do and as the holy Scripture prophesieth that it should euer do at the innouatioÌ„ of any new Doctrine neither doth any Historiographer record in his History any such chaÌ„ge partly by discouering the vncertaine iudgments of your owne Brethren touching Antichrists first comming at what time this so much pressed Innouation of Faith is taught to haue happened and finally partly by diuers other reasons aboue discussed and disputed I say if all this hath bin aboue prooued as I hope it is then doth it follow that all pretended Instances and Examples vpon which you may hereafter seeme in an ignorant eye to insist are impertinent friuolous and wholy by you mistaken Neuertheles for the fuller content of this our Learned IeW I will with peculiar answeres refell euery one of your peculiar Examples And first to your first Where it seemes that the Doctrine of vowed Chastity in Cleargy Men toucheth you neare in regard of your Ministers coniugall liues seeing you begin there with And here by the way I must make bold to say that you Protestants God be thanked cannot iustly be charged with being reputed superstitious Votaries and wilfull Eunuchs as Catholick Priests are styled by some of your Brethren to be so carefull you are of your owne reputation herein but the lesse meruayle since the very Body of Protestancy is Sensuality pardon me M. Doctour for speaking that which Experience and your owne Theorems depose to be true as the soule of it is an assumed height of mind and controule of all Authority But now to your example wherof you produce no authority of any ancient Father affirming so much but only your owne naked assertion This of Siricius is wrongfully alleadged for seuerall respects first in that we finde S. Hierome who liued before Siricius to write of this point in this sort If marryed men like not of this meaning of the single life of the Cleargy let them not be angry with me but with the holy Scriptures with all Bishops Priests and Deacons who know they cannot offer vp Sacrifice if they vse the act of Marryage Thus we see S. Hierome reduceth this point of Priests not marrying euen to the Scripture it selfe Which Father in further proofe thereof appealeth to the generall Practise of the whole Church therein saying quid faciunt Orientis Ecclesiae quid Egypti Sedis Apostolicae quae aut Virgines Clericos accipiunt aut cominentes aut si vxores habuerint mariti esse desinunt With Hierome to omit other Fathers Epiphanius ancient to Hierome conspireth who reprehending the abuse of some Deacons and Sub-deacons for accompanying their Wiues whom they had espoused before their Orders taken concludeth thus At hoc non est iuxta Canonem This is against the Canion So he implying that there was a former Canon against the marriage of Priests To conclude Origen who liued before these oâ—her Fathers thus writeth hereof Mihi videtur quòd illius est solius offerre Sacrificium indesinens qui indesinenti perpetuae se deuouerit castitati I am of iudgment that that man only is to offer vp perpetuall Sacrifice who hath deuoted himselfe to perpetuall Chastity This point is so euident that your owne KeÌ„pnitius doth repreheÌ„d the foresayd Hierome Epiphanius Origen as also Ambrose for their impugning the supposed lawfulnes of Priests marriage We may adde for close hereof the CouÌ„cell of Carthage wherat S. Augustine was present the CouÌ„cell in expresse words sayth thus Omnibus placet vt Episcopi Presbyteri Diaconi c. ab vxoribus se abstineant It is allowed by all that Bishops Priests and Deacons do abstaine from hauing wiues And then immediatly after the CouÌ„cell giueth the reason therof in these words Vt quod Apostoli docuerunt ipsa seruauit antiquitas nos custodiamus to the end that we may keepe what the Apostles haue ordayned herein and antiquity obserued Now I referre to any Mans indifferent iudgment with what colour M. Doctour you can auerre that Siricius was the first who imposed single
I gather that Victor out of his elation pride first chalenged that Primacy to him ouer all churches which your Popes at this day still vsurp and retaine This Pope Victor being one of those who couet ' aiem ' aristcucin cai ' yperochòn ' émmenai ' allon to aduance himselfe as the best and cheifest aboue all other Bishops CARD BELLARM. You do much disaduantage your selfe in alleadging this example considering the time wherein Victor liued to wit in the yeare 198. An age during the which your selfe hath hertofore confessed that the church â—f Rome did suffer no alteration in her Religion Now M. Doctour wheras you cast an aspersion of pride vpon this most ancient and reuerend Pope I wish you take heede that you do not incurre the censure passed vpon Diogenes who is said to haue reprooued Plato his pride with greater pride D. WHITAKERS It is certaine that many churches and Fathrs were offended with Victors proceeding therein and particulerly that ancient and pious Father Irenaeus which is an infallible argument of Victors vsurpation For if Victor had true power to excommunicate the churches of Asia as it is graunted he actually had why should Irenaeus and those churches be offended or reprehend him for putting onely in execution his lawfull Authority CARD BELLARM. You must call to minde here M. Doctour the reason why Victor did excommunicate the Churches of Asia which was because the Bishops of Asia were vnwilling to conforme themselues to the Church of Rome in keeping of Easter day to wit to keepe it onely vpon Sunday whereas they would needs continue the keeping of it vpon the 14. of the Moone according to the custome of the Iewes Now for this their reluctation herein against the Church of Christ Victor did excommunicate them But when this seemed as being but a Ceremony and for a time tollerated through the weaknes of the Iewes in the iudgment of diuers too smal an occasion to excommunicate and cut off so many famous Churches therfore Victor was censured by diuers to be ouer seuere in prosecuting with so great a punishment so smal a seeming fault From which their thus censuring of Victor we may rather gather his Primacy aboue other Churches then otherwise and the reason hereof is because we do not finde any of the sayd Bishops to charge Victor with any Innouation in vnduely assuming to himselfe this Authority ouer other Churches which doubtlesly they would haue done if Victor had first taken this priuiledge to himselfe they being so iustly prouoked thereto but they did onely rebuke as is sayd his ouermuch rigid seuerity in punishing as they thought so rigorously so smal a disobedience in the Bishops of Asia Yea which is more that Irenaeus who was most forward in taxinge Victor with his sharp proceeding ascribeth to Victor a soueraignety ouer all Churches For besides that Irenaeâ—s is reprehended by the Centurists for acknow ledging the Primacy of the Roman Sea Eusebius thus writeth of Irenaeus touching this point Irenaeus admonisheth Victor by letters that he would not for the obseruation of a Tradition so long vsed quite cut of so many Churches from the body of the Vniuersall Church Thus Eusebius Now I here demand why should Irenaens dissuade Victor from excoÌ„municating those Churches but that he was persuaded that Victor had power to excommunicate them And thus farre of this instance which may be of force perhaps to prooue that Victor was ouer seuere but not that he had not true power ouer other Churches for which point it is by you M. Doctour vrged But I pray you passe to other instances onely here by the way I will put you in minde that careles and obstinate Christians and such it well may be some of those Asian Christians were haue in some respect small reason to feare the excommunication of the Pope since these men through such their disobediency do commonly excommunicate themselues D. WHITAKERS It is cleare that Zozimus Bonifacius and Celestinus all Bishops of Rome did chalenge superiority ouer other Bishops by forging of a Canon of the Nicene Councell Which proceeding manifesteth the then vsurped Authority of those Popes to be contrary to the institution of Christ Thus these your Popes thirsted after all domination and Power though at other times rhey made shew by styling theÌ„selues Serui Seruorum and by their other affected Humility to contemne all honours and eminency Cur vultis esse in mundo qui extra mundum estis CARD BELLARM. It is most strange to see how inconsiderately you proceed For here you say that these Popes first introduced this innouatios of the Superiority of the Bishop of Rome ouer other Churches and immediatly afore and with all one breath you ascribe the beginning thereof to Victor who liued two hundred yeares before any of these three Popes If these later Popes brought it in then Victor did not If Victor did begin it then those Popes could not See how irreconciliable these your two Assertions are From the actions of all which Popes you can truely gather that they onely practised an Authority which the Church of Rome euer had but not that they assumed any soueraignty to them which poynt is only in q 〈…〉 estion which afore that Church had not D. WHITAKERS M. D. Fulke conspireth with me in alledging the foresaid examples and he was a man well conuersant in Ecclesiasticall Histories his words are these Zozimus Bonifacius Celestinus did challeng prerogatiue ouer the Bishop of Afrik by forging a false CanoÌ„ of the Nicene CouÌ„cel And this Doctours indgmenâ— I much pryze in matters of controuersyes CARD BELLARM. Both D. Fulke his iudgment how learned soeuer you repute him and your owne also must of necessity yeald to the truth herein seing the example of Victor afore infisted vpon by you doth vindicate and free these three later Popes from all innouation in this poynt And as touching the supposed forging of a Canon of the Nicene Councell for the erection of the Primacy of Rome It is most false for euen your owne wryters to wit Caluin himselfe and Peter Martir do mention the said Canon as truly made Only they say that the Popes did misalleadge this decree as made by the Councell of Nice which was made by the Councell of Sardis And so their Error admitting that they did erre consisteth only in mistaking by whether Councell the said Canon was decreed D. VVHITAKER What say you of Boniface the third It is certain that this Boniface the third was then the first that intituled the Roman Church to be caput omnium Ecclesiarum the Head of all Churches CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour you weary me by idly diuerberating the ayre with these impertinent Examples and force me to entertayne them with a fastidious neglect For do not the former Examples of Victor Zozimus Bonifacius the first of that name and Celestiuus all more ancient then this Boniface the third take away the weight
RomanaÌ„ speculationem suam toti orbi indicere Gregory sayth that the Roman Sea appoynteth her watches ouer the whole world Now by all this here deliuered M. Doctour you may see whether or no Gregory did practise the Authority of an Vniuersall Bishop as the word is taken in a sober and in the Latter aboue mentioned construction And thus much of the Example of Iohn of Constantinople and of Gregory the Greate which is so often enforced and vrged though with extreame wilfull or at least ignorant mistaking by many of your Protestant doctours MICHEAS Our Law of Moyses euer enioyed one Supreame Priest and therfore seeing the tyme of the new Testament is much superiour to the tyme of the Law I do not see but now in theiyme of Grace there should be one Supreame Bishop ouer the whole Church of Christ and consequently the acknowledgmeÌ„t of such an Vniuersall Bishop should not be reputed any Innouation in Religion or change made from the first Institution of such a Pastour by Christ hymselfe CARD BELLARM. Michaeas you speake according to the Truth and no more then certaine Puritan protestants do teach who wryte thus thereof The high Priest of the Iewes was typically and in a figure the supreme heade of the whole Catholyke Church with whom as other Protestant thus iumpeth saying That forme of gouerment which maketh our Sauiour Christ inferioâ—r to Moâ—ses is an impious vngodly and vnlawfull gouerment contrary to the Word c. But M. D. proceede on further D. VVHITAKERS Our best Controuersists which as I may terme them aâ— the Infantaria of our Protestant Churches Souldiers do teach that touching your Sacrament of Confession Innocentius the Third was the first that instituted auricular Confession for necessary Now this Innocentius liued not past some foure hundred yeares since so late and fresh yow fee your Doctryne of Auricular Confession is And admitting this yonr Article touching Confession were not so new but for more ancient yet this Circumstance here auayleth litle since we are to call to minde that Haereses nonâ—am Nouitas quam veritas reuincit CARD BELLARM. I graunt willingly that many of your Controuersists among whom I also raÌ„ge yourfelfe are accounted meÌ„ of learning And therefore I rest the more amazed to see yow here perhaps with resolued willfullnes against the Truth obiect this example to vs for Nouelty But I feare your and their learninge is cheifly in obtruding errours and misstakings for warrantable Truths and such a knowledge is not to be preferred before simple Ignorance But to cleare this Innocentius from all innouation herein and not to oppresse yow with multitude of Authorities We finde S. Bernard who liued before Innocentius the third thus to wryte of this point Sed dicis sufficit mihi soli Deo confiteri c. But thou saiest it is sufficient for me to confesse my sinnes only vn to God because a Preist without him cannot absolue me from my sinnes To Which thy argument not I but S. Iames answereth Confesse your sinnes one to an other But to ascend higher S. Leo. who liued anno 440. describing the vse of the Latin Church in this poynt thus saith Christus hanc Ecclesiae Prepositis tradidit potestatem c. Christ did deliuer this power to the Prelates of his Church that they should impose penance vpon them that confessed their sinnes that so they being purged through a healthfull satisfaction might be admitted by Way of reconciliation to the communion of the Sacraments In lyke sort S. Basil S. Leo his ancient discoursing of the vse of the Greeke Church herein and teaching that a Ghostly Father in tymeof CoÌ„fession is an other from himselfe thus writeth Necessariò peccata eis aperiri debeÌ„t c. Our sinns are necessarily see heere the Necessity of Confession to be opened to those to whoÌ„ the dispensation of the Mysteries of Christ are giueÌ„ for indeede we find that all the AncieÌ„ts did follow this course in Penance To be breife Cypryan and Tertullian of so greate antiquity is Auricular Confession are charged by your owne Centurists to teach priuate Confession and this euen of thoughts and lesser sinnes and that such Confession was then commanded and thought necessary Thus far of this point Where by the way I must tell you that since protestaÌ„cy had it first source froÌ„ sence and sensuality the lesse wounder it is that Confession of sinnes made to a preist being so vngratfull to mans nature should be so vnpleasing to all protestants and so basely esteemed of for we all know that the water will ascend no higher then is the leuell of its first spring MICHNS I must acknowledg that our AncieÌ„t Iewes did vse particular Confession of sinns to a Preist Galatinus who hath collecteda summary of our Iewish Religion sheweth in diuers parts of his Writings our continual practise therof Adde hereto that the prefiguration of Auricular Confession is not wanting in Leuiticus for seeing there were then appovnted different Sacrifices to be offered vp by the Priest for different sinns and offences how could the Priest know what kind of Sacrifice he were to offer except he knew the particular sinne for which it is to be offered Now then in regard of our Iewish practise hereof seing there is no reasoÌ„ why now in the New Testament it should be wholy abrogated I cannot be induced to think that the vse therof is to be accompted as an innouation and change different from the doctrine first planted in Rome by the Apostles D. WHITAKERS Your doctrine of Transubstantiatinn was first inuented by Innocentius the third in the Councell of Lateran for before that tyme not any one of the ancient Fathers did hold it for where euer in any of their writings was made any mention of Transubstantiation CARD BELLARM. Good God how poore and needy in proofe are you M. Doctour For indeed you greatly wrong your selfe and this presence in suggesting such vnwarrantable Assertions True it it is that if you insist in the word Transubstantiation wee grant that it was first inuented and imposed vpon the Doctrine of the Reall Presence in the councell of Lateran But then this is but a verball litigation of you for though the Word was then first formed to expresse the Doctrine of the Church therein yet the doctrine it selfe was generally beleeued in all ages before And still you allow M. Doctour by reseÌ„blance this illation as good and necessary The VVord ' omousios or Consubstantialis was first inuented in the Councell of Nice to expresse the Doctrine of the Church touching the Trinity Ergo the Doctrine of the Trinity was not beleeued before the Councell of Nice Idly and inconsequently concluded Therfore M. Doctour let your iudgment herein draw equally with your learning But to come particulerly to the doctrine it selfe and to omit that S. Augustine sayth vocatur caro quod non capit caro And in another place
you Christians And consequently the coÌ„ming of the Messias should be a sufficient warrant for your breach of the said Commandements then which to grant nothing can be excogitated more absurd or more derogating from the honour of Christ But good M. Doctour if you haue any more that can be produced for proofe of change of Faith made by the Church of Rome I would intreate you to perseuer in your discourse D. WHITAKERS Though I should grant some insufficiency and defect in my former instances and that we could not insist at all in any particulars of that nature neuerthelesse we are not endangered therby For we are not bound to answere in what age superstition crept into the Church And to grant more fully herein Of the tymes of this change it is not easi to answere neither is it necessary that the tymes of all such changes be set downe Breifly I auerre It is not needfull in vs to search out in histories the beginning of this change And with me in iudgment herein agree many learned Protestants As for exaÌ„ple to omit others Bucanus thus writeth Non est nostrum designare quo temporis momento caeperit Ecclesia deficere As also M. Powell saying We cannot tell neither by who or at what tyme the Enemy did sow it c. neither indeed do we know who was the first authour of euery one of your blasphemous opinions CARD BELLARM. O Iesus What strange and conscious tergiuersatioÌ„s are these And how mortally do they wouÌ„d your cause ReligioÌ„ wholy discouering your dispaire and diffidence therein For do not these Confessions ouerthrow your former instances If your supposed Examples be true then did you know the times of such a chaunge if you doe not knowe the times of the change as here you confesse you do not why then would you alleadge the foresaid Examples How can you extricate your selfe M. Doctour out of this maze or how can you decline this forked Delemma Furthermore if it cannot be knowne when any change of Fayth was made as here you and your Brethren confesse it cannot why should we beleiue there was made any chaÌ„ge at all He is weake who enthralleth his iudgment to the beleife of any such thing if so he wanteth the necessary and coÌ„ducing CircuÌ„staÌ„ces for the fortifying of such his beleife But belike you will finally say with Ioannes Rhegius a Protestant who not being able to exemplify any change in the Church of Rome arriued to that height of impudency as thus to write Sed denique licet verum esset Romanam Ecclesiam in sua Religione nihil mutasse an propterea mox sequetur eam esse veram Ecclesiam Non opinor Thus this Protestant D. WHITAKERS Not so my Lord Cardinall for I grant a change and the chang of Fayth made in the Church of Rome may well resemble the change in colour which heires do make in being become gray nothing hauing it maturity vpon the sodaine In like sort it may aptly resemble the changes in Edifices houses occasioned by their ruines and decaies We see by experience these changes are true and reall and yet cannot any man set downe punctually the tyme when either the heires are becom gray or the buildings are made ruinous The like may be sayd touching the change of Fayth in the RomaÌ„ Church certaine it is that such a change is already made but when by whom and in what manner it is most vncertaine MICHEAS What M. Doctour do your greatest proofs for the change of ReligioÌ„ finally end in these similitudes If so then I may say I do carry about me my best instructours herein must these gray haires of this my hoary heade and beard my selfe being 60. yeares of age and more and the decayes of this my old body for the same reason there is here of a ruinous body which is of a ruinous house teach me what Religion among you Christians I am to embrace Haue my wearied members taken so great a iourney of so many hundred miles to this place only to take aduise of my beard and my owne feeble limms which sitting at the sire side at home I coulde with farre more ease and with as much certainty haue performed ô the misery of man who lyeth open in matters of greatest waight and importance to the deceit of such rotten foundations they being as weake for proofe of what they are vrged as the things froÌ„ which these resemblaÌ„ces are taken are weake in their owne nature CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour I do assure you in all sincerity I do much condole the state of ignorant Lay ProtestaÌ„ts to see how their eyes are sealed vp by the learneder sort of you who in your Pulpits and writings are often accustomed to inueighe in great acerbity of stile and tragicall exclamations against the Church of Rome for hauing altered as you beare your followers in hand her Primitiue Faith But you being pressed to prooue this imaginary change are forced for the warranting thereof to take your last and best proofs from some few gray hayres and slâ—fters in an old rotten wall But because these similitudes and resemblances are most vrged not only by your selfe but also by many other Protestants of Note and haue much swayd with vulgar iudgments not in respect of any force in them but in regard of the eminency of their first Inuentors so the water heateth not because it is water but by reasoÌ„ of it borrowed heate elswhere Therefore I will examine them narrowly and will shew the great disparity betweene them and the change which is at any time made in Religion 1 First then the first smale decay in any building and the first shew of whitenes in haires is imperceptible and not to be discerned wheras euery change in faith though but in one point or article is most markeable and subiect to obseruation 2 Secondly the whitenes of the haires of the head and the ruins of a house do not happen but by degrees and therefore at the first cannot be obserued whereas euery Opinion in doctrine is at the first either true or false and therefore is for such at the first to be appreheÌ„ded by the vnderstanding 3 Thirdly not any haue the charge or care imposed vpon them to obserue the changes in these petty matters but in the Church of Christ there are euer appointed Pastours Doctors whose office is to marke the first beginning of any innouation in doctrine and accordingly to labour to suppresse the same 4 Fourthly these similitudes and deceitfull resemblances being truly vrged do recoyle backe with disaduantage to the Protestants For although we cannot shew when the first haire began to be white or the first slifter in a house begunne to be a slifter yet any notable degrees of the said whitenes in the haires or of the slifters in a house are easily discerned and therefore the Protestants are obliged euen from the nature of these their owne similitudes to tell
and Piety your former assertion in ascribing the Protest an t faith to all that Country cannot be iustifyed For though I grant it is on most sides obsest as I may say with Protestancy yet it is certaine that diuers principall parts thereof are not Protestant but Catholicke in Religion As halfe of Switzerland a part of the Grisons Voltolyne the whole Country of Bauaria the Territories of all the Bishops Electours the kingdome of Bohemia besides many Imperiall Citties and states Againe as other parts thereof do ioyntly and particulerly disclaime from the Roman Religion so though they all do challenge to themselues the name of Protestants yet do they manteine many irreconcileable differences of Religion enen of the greatest importance like seuerall wayes and Tracts meeting in one common place and then instantly deuided one from another This appeareth as I am enformed most cleare and euident from the authority of Hospinian a learned German Protestant who hath diligently set downe the names of many scores of Bookes written in great acerbity of style by one Gerâ—aÌ„ Protestant against another German Protestant according nereto it is that we finde so many kindes of Sectaries and Hereticks in Germany as the Caluinists the Lutherans the Anabaptists the Antitrinitarians and some others though they all be linked and tyed together in the common and maine knot of Protestancy And thus farre M. Doctour of this point where you see I haue smale reason to embrace the Protestant Religion before the Catholicke because that is professed throughout Germany as you pretend this cheifly restrained to Italy Spayne and France But let vs returne backe to the generall subject of this your disoutation with my Lord Cardinall I would intreat you M. Doctour to alleadge some stronger arguments for the change off yeh in the Church of Rome then hitherto you haue giuen which if you do not then what by reason of the weakenes of your said arguments at least in my apprehension and what in respect that I do not see the proofes Produced by my Lord Cardinal to be sufficiently by you refuted I must tell you aforehand I will embrace the Catholicke Roman Religion disauow all Protestancy CARD BLLARM M. Doctour if you can support this your position of Romes change with other more forcing reasons I would intreate you now to insist further in them You see I am prepared to giue my best answere to what you can object If you do not I must presume all your forces are already spent they indeed being but weake reseÌ„bling that of S. Iude Cloudes without water carryed about with windes MICHEAS I pray you M. Doctour forbeare not to grant to this my desire since otherwise I must rest assured that no more can be sayd on your part touching this subject CARD BELLARM. Yeild M. Doctour to this Learned Iewes importunity you know he hath vndertaken a journey of many hundred miles to this Citty onely to be resolued in this one Point therefore both in charity and for the preseruing of your owne honour and reputation you stand obliged to giue all satisfaction vnto him D. WHITAKERS Tush you are both ouer vpbrayding with me and seeing I intend no further dispute with men of so irreâ—ragable dispositions I first for a close say to you Micheas that where you intend to become a Papist your change is this that you leaue that which was ouce good though now bad to embrace that which is euer bad I meane you leaue Iudaisme to entertaine Papisme and thus you become a new Proselyte or rather Neophyte in the schoole of Superstition Idolatry Now as for you Cardinall whose name is so celebrious and so much aduanced in the eares and mouthes a fall men know you that touching the subiect of this our discourse I doubt not but that my arguments reasons and Instances aboue alleadged do in the iudgment of such as the Lord hath illuminated with the truth of the Ghosple sufficiently prooue the great changes made of Fayth and Religion in the Church of Rome since it first receaued it Faith in the Apostles daies And if the truth hereof be hid from any I may then say with the Apostle It is hid from them that perish and are lost Therefore my irreuocable conclusion is this that the Church of Rome was once the true Church and in fayth pure and incontaminate as before I acknowledged but at this present it is The Whore of Babilon a branch cut from the true Vine adenne of theeues the large way leading to destruction the kingdome of Hell the Body of Antichrist a heape or masse of errours a great Mother of whoring the Church of the wicked out of the which it behoucth euery christian to depart and which Christ in the end will miserably destroy inflict due punishments for all it impieties and with this as vnwilling to haue further entercourse or dispute with any that subiect themselues to this prophane Church I end and bid you both farewell CARD BELLARM. M. Doctour I much greiue to see you thus transported with passion and to inueigh with such acerbity of words against Christs intemerate spouse but I the more easily pardon you since it is hard vpon the sodame to cast of a habit which hath beene often engrained in diuers tinctures of many operations so spleenfull a â—â—slike you haue against the Church of Rome and indeede it seemes you labour with the disease of those whose spitle being enuenomed make them to thinke that euery thing they take in their mouths doth taste of venome But since it is your minde to breake off so sodainely with vs I recommend you to the tuition of him who in an instant is able to turne the most stony hart into Cor docile and Cor emolitum and my prayers shal be that before the time of your death you may haue the grace to implant your selfe as a branch of that Church the profession of whose faith may be auaileable to the sauing of your soule MICHEAS I am beholden vnto you M. Doctour for your Paines and labour taken in this disputation howbeit I must confesse I did expect to haue heard more said for the proofe of the Church of Rome her change in Religion then as yet is deliuered where I see that your faire promised mountaines in the beginning do but turne to snow and after resolue into water and that by your finall appealing to the written word alone you endeauour to set the best face vpon your ouerthrow in this your dispute bearing your selfe herein like to souldiers who are forced to yeild vp their hould and yet couet to depart with such ceremonies as are not competent to such as yeild Neuerthelesse I commend you to the protection of the God of Israell and will pray that you may after this life enioy the blessings which are already granted to Abraham Isaâ—ck Iacob and their Seede D. VVHITAKERS Well well Once more I bid you both farewell MICHEAS My
by whoÌ„ those Articles were at their first beginning impugned And finally the Church or visible society of Christians out of which as more ancient those sectaries by their first forging of their said points of Protestancy did depart and go from And to beginne The Doctrine of the Churches Inuisibility was first taught by Donatus and of him his followers were called Donatists This Heresie at it first rising was written against and impugned by S. Augustine In like sort the Donatists were the first who did ouerthrow Altars and cast out holy Oile but contradicted herein by Optatus and Augustine The deniall of praier for the dead and consequently the deniall of the doctrine of Purgatory as also the abrogation of all set Fasts were first brought in by Aerius his followers for such his doctrines stiled Aëriani These his false doctrines were recorded and contradicted by S. Augustine The deniall of Free-will was set on foote by Manicheus from him are descended the Manichees His doctrine herein was writen against by S. Hierome and S. Augustine The deniall of single and vnmarried life was first taught by Vigilantius He also taught that the praiers of the dead are not heard for the liuing and consequently he taught that we ought not to pray to Saints His schollers tearmed Vigilantinians His doctrines impugned by Hierome Equallity of Works was first taught by Iouinian He also broached the Heresie that our Blessed Lady in the birth of our Sauiour lost her Virginity His followers Iouiniani His Heresies exploded by Hierome and Augustine The doctrine that all Sinnes are mortall was first stamped by Pelagius He further taught that the Baptisme of children was not necessary The firsts of these his doctrines was writen against by S. Hierome the second by Innocentius and S. Augustine his followers Pelagiani The deniall of all worship due to the Images of Christ and his Saints was first introduced by Zenaâ—as Persa who is therefore recorded and contradicted by Nicâ—phorus The doctrine that God is the authour of Sinne which necessarily followeth by taking away Free-will from Man was first sowed by Simon Magus but impugned by Vincentius â—yrinensis The deniall of enioyned times of Pennance was first taught by the Hereticks called Audiani and contradicted by Theodoret. The deniall of the Possibility of keeping the Commendemeâ—s was first broached by certaine Hereticks in S. Hieroms time and impugned by Hierom and Augustiâ—â— The deniall of all reuerent estimation particulerly to the Crosse or Crucifix of Christ was first inuented by Probianus and he recorded and reprehended therefore in the Tripartite History The deniall of the Reall Presence was first mantained by certaine Hereticks in S. Ignatius his time as Theodoret relateth and condemneth them for the same The deniall of Priests hauing power to remit sinnes was first iustified by Nouatus his schollers were called Nouatiani his Heresie recorded and condemned by Theodoret and Eusebius Finally to omit diuers other Protestant doctrines for greater breuity the doctrine teaching that sinne could not hurt a man if so he had faith a Paradox reuiued by Luther was first inuented by Eunomius but impugned by S. Augustine his schollers stiled Eunomiani Thus farre of Protestant doctrines broached by certaine impious Hereticks in those former times who though they be long since departed this world yet their misery is that their end cannot be reputed their end nor their death since in regard of this their change of faith and innouations introduced by them into Gods Church they doubtlesly liue if they had not a finall repentance in a perpetuity of insufferable tormeÌ„ts Now concerning the times when all these former points of Protestancy did first take their being this Circumstance for the most part may be taken from the times wherein the Fathers who did impugne and write against the said doctrines did liue seeing no sooner any of the said doctrines began to rise and get on wing but presently one Father or other was ready by his penne to suppresse and beat downe the same And thus we finde that sentence most true to wit To reduce an Heresie to it beginning is a confutation of the said Heresie That all these former prime Hereticks did depart and go out of a more ancient society of Christians then themselues to wit out of the then visible and knowne society of vs Catholicks in those times according to those words of S. Iohn exierunt ex nobis and consequently that it was those Hereticks who by drawing to themselues the impurity of the former errours became the channels as I may say of the Church cleansing and freeing her from all filth and ordure of I 〈…〉 ouation who made the change and alteration is pâ—ooued seuerall waies First because it appeareth from the aboue alleadged Confessions of the learned Protestants that our Catholicke Faith was the only faith in those ages generally beleeued and that the Protestant Church supposing that afore it had beene in Being was as then by their like Confessions wholy extinct and inuisible Secondly the foresaid points of the former Hereticks departing from a more ancient community of Christians is further euicted from the Fathers particuler charging this or that Hereticke with this or that particuler Heresy only for if either any or all of them had ioyntly taught all the Articles of protestancy at this present beleeued then no doubt all the said Articles of protestancy as then mantained by one man had beene impugned and writen against by the said Fathers as well as the particuler Heresies of this or that particuler Hereticke are by them contradicted Thirdly in that the Fathers who condemned the foresaâ—d Hereticks were euer reputed most Orthodoxall and pious Doctours neither were they reprehended by any other Father of Gods Church for such their proceeding against those Hereticks which consideration demonstrateth that the whole Church of God did in those times agree in faith and Religion with those Fathers and against the aboue condemned and nouelizing Hereticks from whence we may further conclude that the whole Church of Christ which hath authority to discerne both true and false doctrine as a straight line me sureth both a right and crooked line did by the former Fathers as by her instruments condemne those Men for broaching such their Heresies Fourthly and lastly for accession of more reasons the former point appeareth from the consideration of the Nature of the former Heresies which seeing they for the most part coÌ„sist in Negations as the deniall of Free-Will deniall of Purgatory deniall of the Reall Presence c. do therefore presuppose a preexistency of the Affirmatiue doctrines whereof they are meerely Negations I meane they preadmit a former beleefe of the said doctrines of Free-will of Purgatory of the Reall Presence c. For why should any Sectarie in those daies rise vp to deny any of the said doctrines if those doctrines had
brightnesse our Lord euen foreseeing so much saith A Citye that is built vpon a hill cannot be hidd And further S. Augustin thus enlargeth himselfe Ecclesia vera nemiem latet the true Church is hidd or concealed from no man And yet more numquid digito c. Do we not point our fingar to the Church it doth she not lye open to all And lastly he exaggerateth this point further in these words Quid amplius diccturus sum c. What may I more say then account them blynd who cannot see so greate a mountaine who do shult their eyes against a candel placed in a candelstich Thus S. Austin And thus farre of the Fathers from whence we may easely coniecture how muche different ware the iudgements of the auncient and primatiue Fathers from their conceipts who labour by their speeches to turne the faire streame of the Churches Resplendency into the shallow current of her supposed Obscurity 1. In this next place I will descend to arguments drawne from analogy of reason And first from the comparison made betwene the old Testament and the New Testament Certaine it is that the Iewes euer since Ghrists dayes retained and kept a knowne profession of their Religion though vnder some restraint and their Synagogues haue euer since bene extarnally visible though disperced as in Greece Spayne Italy Germany France England c. And this point Peter Martyr and others do acknowledg and your selfe Michaeas can well iustify the same Now then if the Church of the new Testament should want a continuall Visibility then should it be inferiour in honour and dignity to the Iewish Synagogue euen then when the Gospell is prophesied to be most florishing and the Synagogue to be in it greatest decay and ruyne a reasonable to ouerbalance all reasons brought to the contrary 2. The foresaid Conclusion of the Churches Visibility is also proued from the beginning and progresse of the Church For first durnig the old Testament the Church was then so Visible as that the Professours thereof did beare euen in their flesh the Visible and markable signe of Circumcision as a badg of the Church Againe in the new Testament the whole Church of Christ was in it infancy and beginning in Christs Apostles and Disciples Who were so Visible as that the Holy Ghost did Visibly descend vpon them vpon the feast of Penticost Furthermore We reade in the Acts. c 2. 3. 4. that on one day three thousands on an other fyue thousands were adioyned to the former by their confession of fayth and Baptisme And so after they and only they were reputed as membrs of Christs Church who did adioyne themselue to the former Christians by their externall confession of fayth and by Baptisme 3. An other argument may be taken from the greate necessity imposed vpon Christians who are obliged vnder paine of eternall damnation to range themselues vnto the true Church of Christ and to perseuer in the same as appareth not only from the testimonies of Cyprian Ierome and Austin but euen from reason it selfe Since no man can raigne with Christ who is not a member of Christ But how can this be performed if the Church of Christ be Inuisible Or how can God be excused from cruelty by threatning to vs eternal perdition for our not performing such conditions the which supposing the Church not to be Visible is not in our power to accomplish 4. Furthermore the Inuisibility of the Church impugneth the marks of the Church giuen by vs Protestants which are the true preaching of the Word and the administration of the Sacraments seeing there matters cannot be put in practice but among a Visible Society of men and such a Society as that one of it is knowne to an other 5. Againe the Inuisibillity of the Church mainly crosseth the ende for which the Church of God was instituted Which end was to prosecute God with that entier and perfect worship which man can giue to him that is worship him not only with his Soule but also externally with his body and works or deeds seeing Man consisteth of soule and body But an Inuisible Church performeth it worship to God only in hart and minde And with this I end referring the last point to you Michaeas who is next to enter as I may say vpon the stage MICHAEAS Most willingly I come For if we peruse the writings and especially of such who haue bene of the chiëfest note in the Protestant Church it is a world to see how riotous as it were and abounding they haue bene in their works for proofe of the Churches Visibility at all times and in respect of all men and this euen in the Conclusion it selfe without any borowed sequels though neuer so necessary And first we find Caluin the halfe Arche of the Protestant Church thus to say Nunc de Visibili Ecclesia c. Now we determine to dispute of the Visible Church c. extracuius gremium nulla est speranda peccatorum remissio out of whose bosome we cannot expect any remission of sinns Neither is Melancton lesse full herein who thus acknowledgeth Necesse est fateri esse Visibilem Ecclesiam c. it is necessary to confesse the Church to be Visible Whither tendeth then haec portentosa oratio this monstrous opinion which denyeth the Church to be Visible Melancthon Further thus saith Whensoeuer we thinke of the Church let vs behould the company of such men as are gathered together which is the Visible Church Neither let vs dreame that the Elect of God are to be found in any other place then in this Visible Society c. neither let vs imagine of any other Inuisible Church Briefly the said Melancthon vrging diuers texts of Scripture in proofe of the Churches Visibility thus coÌ„cludeth Hi similes loci c. These and such lyke places of Scripture non de Ideä Platonica sed de Ecclesia visibili loquuntur do not speake of Plato his Ideä but of the Visible Church this Melancthon The Learned Hunnius giueth his sentence in these words God in all times hath placed his Church in a high place and hath exalted it in the sight of all Prople and Nations Iacobus Andreas that famous Protestant thus â—umpeth with his brethreÌ„ herein We are not ignorant that the Church must be a Visible company of teachers and hearers The eminet Danâ—usâ—oth â—oth thus second the rest Who denyeth the true Church of God and that Visible to haue bene from the beginning of the world he without doubt sheweth himselfe to be ignorant in holy Schripture M. Hooker your Countriman thus writeth of this point God hath had euer shall haue some Church Visible vpon earth Peter Martyr once your Companion Ochinus confesseth the trueth herein in these words We do not appoint an Innisible Church but do define the Church to be a Congregation vnto which the faithfull may know that
they may safely adioyne themselues D. Field conspireth with al the former Protestants thus saying The persons of them of whom the Church consisteth are Visible their profession knowne euen to the prophane and wiched of the world And in this sort the Church cannot be Inuisible Thus this Doctour preuenteth the answere of those who say the Church is Visible but to the Elect only The said D. Field thus reprehendeth Cardinal Bellarmine touching this point saying It is true that Bellarmine laboreth in vaine in proouing that there is and alwayes hath bene a Visible Church and that not consisting of some few scattered Christians without Order of Ministry or vse of Sacraments for all this wee do most willingly yeeld vnto how soeuer perhaps some few haue bene otherwise of Opinion But for great breuity and ommitting the like confessions herein of other remarkable Protestants D. Humfrey shall close vp this scene who enthereth into heate and passion with his Aduersaries for needelesly prouing the Churches euer Visibility For thus he writeth Cur ergo anxiè curiosè probant quod est a nobis numquam negatum Why do they meaning the Catholicks so painfully and curiously proue that which we neuer denyed And then after the said Doctour Non enim clancularij secessus conuocationes sunt Christianae the society of Christians are not secret meetings And then there againe speaking of the Church militant Oportet Ecclesiam esse conspicuam Conclusio est clarissima It is a manifest Conclusion that the Church is to be conspicuous and Visible And thus farre Gentlemen of your owne Brethren confessing with vs Catholicks the euer Visibility of the Church of God And this in so full a manner as that the wicked as D. Fyeld aboue speaketh shall take full notice and sight of it by force of which cleare testimonies those few and ignorant Protestants who confesse the Church to be Visible but not in so full a maner are preuented of their poore refuge saying The Church is Visible but not at all tymes as if the Church like the Sea enioyed a flux and reflux of it Visibility knowne but knowne only to the Elect and faythfull phantastically spoken without al colour of proofe and mainly crossing not only their owne more learned Brethren but also most repugnant to the formery mentioned Propheces of Gods sacred word and other passages thereof to the graue authority of the Primatiue Fathers and finally to al force of reason it selfe D. REYNOLDS Wee see Michaeas you are very conuersant in our owne Writers And now I hope this first point is perfected Whereupon the force of the future discourse is to relye And though thē be some difficulty to crye downe an errour or false opinion in doctrine once aduanced Neuerthelesse I trust no learned iudicious Man perusing the former authorities at large will euer dreame of an Inuisible Church being in it selfe a meere intentional Notion and hauing no subsistence or being MICHAEAS M. Doctour you say truly But now seeing it is in this next place properly incumbent vpon you and these two graue men to instance in Protestants for all ages since Christ for the Church of Christ by your owne former doctrine necessarily exacteth such a Visibility I hould it conuenient to put you al in minde of two or three points the due consideration of which may much induce to the discouery of the weaknes of such Instances which as my thoughts presage wil be hereafter insisteth vpon by you NEVSERVS You do well Michaeas to set downe those premonitions for we desire that if there shal be any defect in the future examples it may be fully displayed Therefore proceed in your Method MICHAEAS The first then of these any maduersions may be to obserue the wounderful reluctation and backwardnesse in some Protestants a manifest signe of their owne guilty defectiuenesse herein when this Catholicks presse them to giue instances of Protestancy and of the administration of the word and Sacrements For seing they wil beare men in hand that their Church hath euer continued Visible they are therefore in reasons it selfe bound as mantayning the affirmatiue part to vndertake the proose thereof Now answearably to my former Assertion I finde D Wutton speaking to his Catholicke Aduersary thus to write you wilt say shew vs where the fayth and Religion you professe where held Nay proue you that they were held no where c. And what if it could not beshewed yet we know by the articles of our Creede that there hath bene alwayes a Church in which we say this religion we professe must of necessity be held c. This stands vpon you to disproue which when you do by particular Records you shall haue particular answere Then which what can be spoken first more absurdly as expecting records of things which neuer were in being He furthermore transferring the part of prouing vpon Catholicks to which himselfe and his fellowes only stand obliged Secondly what can discouer more their vnablenessein guing examples of Protestancy during the former ages The like dispairing Answere D Fulke vseth vpon the same point saying to his Aduersary Proferre me iubes teto orbe latitantes vah quam iniquum postulas Thou willest me to produce and name those which did lye secret through out the World how iniust a thing dost thou here demand The second Obseruation Seing the Church of God is at al times and seasons without the least discontinuance thereof to be Visibile and to enioy a publike administration of the Word and Sacraments as aboue we al haue proued That therefore such Instances of Protestancy which may be giuen by you hereafter supposing them to be true do but iustify Visibility of your Church only for so long no longer as the said Protestants did liue And therefore except you be able to produce examples of Protestancy for al ages since Christ if you do fayle herein but for any one only age it necessarily followeth that Church of the Protestants as wanting this vninterrupted Visibility is not the Church of Christ described in the old Testament and their prophecyed of in so many different places The third and last Obseruation That one may truly and iustly be called a Protestant two things among others must necessatily concurre The one that he do mantayne al the chiefest points of Protestancy Thus he is not to hould only some few points of Protestancy and in the rest being more in number and of greater importance to pertake with the Catholicks seeing such a Man is rather as beleiuing more Articles of Catholicke Religion then of Protestancy to be reputed a Catholicke then a Protestant for his denomination is to be giuen him rather according to the greater and weightier number of Articles beleeued by him ther otherwise though to speake the truth such a Man so beleeuing is formally neither Catholicke not Protestant The second thing necessary to the being of a Protestant is that he doth not hould pertinaciously any
mayne Heresies or Paradoxes wholy impugned gainsaid and contradicted both by Protestant and Catholicke For this Man in this respecte is to be styled rather an open Hereticke then a Protestant euen in the censure of the Protestants themselues Therefore to conclude this last obseruation Euen as when beasts of seueral Kyndes or species do coople together that which is ingendred is of a third Kinde diuers from them both So here that Religion or fayth which is as it were propagated from the mixture of contrary Religions must be a beliefe different from them al. These things being premised now M. Doctour or either of you two may begin to instance in Protestant Professours for euery age And I shall reply therto as my iudgment and reading wil best inable me OCHINVS I do like well of these your animaduertions and they are able in a cleare iudgement to fanne away imperfect and faulty instances from such as be true and perfect MICHAEAS Before any of you begin your discours of Instancing I must demand of you al as Cardinal Bellarmyne did in his late discours with D. Whitakers whether you wil be content to stand to the authority of your owne learned Brethren in al the following passages betweene vs D. REYNOLDS I here answere for vs al We will indisputably stand to our owne mens learned iudgmeÌ„ts And if you can conuince either our future examples or our cause in generall from our Protestants penns we yeald you the victory For I do hould with Osiander the Protestant that the Confession and testimony of an Aduersary is of greatest authority And therefore Peter Martyr truly saith surely among other testimonyes that is of greatest weight which is giuen by the Enemyes And D. Bancrofs to omit al other Protestants in this point confirmeth the same thus writing Let vs take hould of that which they haue granted you may be bould to build thereupon for a truth that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto Which kinde of proofe is no lesse warranted by the Auncient Fathers for Ireneus saith It is an vnanswerable proofe which bringeth attestation from the Aduersaries themselues And Nazianzen pronounceth thus hereof It is the greatest cuâ—ning and wisdome of speech to bynd the Aduersary with his owne words So full you see Michaeas I am in this point But now let vs come to the maine matter To produce instances of Protestancy shal be my peculiar Scene And that I may the better marshal and incampe as it were my examples thereby the more forcibly to inuade your iudgment I will begin with the later times of the Church and so ascend vpwards And first for these last threescore yeares the Gospell of Christ hath enioyed here in England to forbeare all other Countreyes it Visibility in it full Orbe all writers of these dayes and other Nations acknowledging no lesse Againe in K. Edward the sixt his time this worthy Man Ochinus here present backed with the like endeauours of the learned Peter Martyr did so plant our Protestant fayth in our Nation as that infinite most remarkable Professours thereof did instantly growne like roses after a long cold or tempest blooming forth through the heate of the Sunne with refeâ—erence of which Professours Ochinus may iustly apply to himselfe the words of Aenias Quorum pars magna fui MICHAEAS Concerning the Professours of Protestancy here in England since Queene Elizabeth came to the Crowne I easily grant they haue been most Visible as I gather out of your English Chronicles And thus I freely confesse that Protestancy hath continued in England some threescore and seauen yeares But where you say that Protestancy I meane as it comprehendeth all the Articles taught at this day for Protestancy and which necessarily concurre to the making of a perfect complete Protestant was fully taught and beleiued in K. Edward his dayes I absolutely deny OCHINVS Will you deny Michaeas so manifest a verity whereas myselfe was not only an eyewitnesse in those times but If I may speake in modesty a greate Cause thereof What will you not deny if you deny such illustrious Trueths and what hope can we haue of your bettering by this our disputation MICHAEAS Good Ochinus beare me not downe with astreame of vaunting words the refuse of speech but if you can with force of argument I peremptorily deny the former point and for iustifying this my deniall I wil recurre to the Communion Booke set out in K. Edwards time with the approbation and allowance as D. Doue a Protestant affirmeth of Peter Martyr your Cooperatour Which Booke we must presume in al reason was made according to the publike fayth of the King and the Realme established in those tymes and the rather considering that the said Communion Booke for it greater authority was warranted in the Kings time by Act of Parliament Now this Communion Booke or publicke Lyturgy of the fayth of England in those dayes being printed in folio by Edward whit-Whit-church anno 1549. pertaketh in many points with our Roman Religion For it maketh speciall defence for Ceremonyes and prescribeth that the Eucharist shal be consecrated with the signe of the Crosse It commandeth consecration of the Water of Baptisme with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth of Chrisme as also of the Childs annoynting and Exorcisme In that booke mention is made of prayer for the dead and intercession and offering vp of our Prayers by Angells It deffendeth Baptisme giuen by Laypersons in time of necessity and the grace of that Sacrament as also Confirmation of children and strength giuen them thereby It mentioneth according to the custome vsed in tyme at Masse at this very day the Priests turning sometimes to the Altar and sometimes to the People It ordayneth that answerably yet to our Catholike custome Alleluya should be said from Easter to Trinity sunday It prescribeth the Priest blessing of the Bryde brydegroome with the signe of the Crosse It alloweth the Priests absolution of the sicke Penetent with these particular words By the authority committed vnto me I absolute thee of all thy sinns It mentioneth a speciall Confession of the sicke Penitent And lastly it commandeth the annoynting of the sicke Person which we Catholicks call the Sacrament of Extreme Vnction So little reason Ocbinus you see you haue to affirme that the Protestancy of the present Church of England is the same which was mantained and publikely established by King Edward OCHINVS Indeede I grant the Communion booke was then made by the consent of the Parliament but I instructed those with whom I conuersed to reiect those superstitions their confirmed D. REYNOLDS Well let that passe It auayleth not much whether Protestancy was here in England at those dayes or no since it is certaine it was then most fully dilated in many other Countryes by the late afore raysing vp of Luther who was miraculously sent by the Holy
a Protestant Church preaching the Word and administring the Sacraments vpon the face of the earth to be seene or heard of But hereat I meruayle not since Philosophy reacheth vs to speake by all â—sion that where the Obiect is wanting there the sense suspendeth it operation DOCTOVR REYNOLDS Admitting all that you say to be true touching the first twenty yeares before Luther yet it is most euâ—cent that Iohn Hus who liued anno 1400. and not very many yeares before those 20. yeares was a good and true Protestant for him I fynd registred for a most holy Martyr by M. Fox and D. Downeham MICHAEAS Iohn Hus did liue in the yeare 1400. Who first was a Catholicke Priest The cause of his death was in that he taught the Necessity of Communion vnder both kinds and the seditious doctrine touching Princes Bishops and Priests being in mortall sinne But to make a more particular dissection of this Instance The Articles wherein his followers the Bohemians dissented from the Church of Rome were these following which M. Fox thus relateth The Bohemians being demanded in what poynts they did differ from the Church of Rome the only Propositions which they propounded were these foure Articles first Communion vnder both kinds The second that al Ciuil dominiou was forbidden to the Clergy The third that the preaching of the Word was free for all Men and in al places The fourth that open crymes are in no wyse to be suffered for auoyding of greater euill Thus M. Fox of the Hussite who we see as comparting with the Church of Rome in all other points cannot possibly be alledged for visible members of the Protestant Church D. REYNOLDS But what do you say of Iohn Hus himselfe was not he a Protestant and dyed in defence of the Protestant fayth MICHAEAS M. D The testimonies of Luther and M. Fox shall decide this point betweene vs. And first M. Fox thus saith of him Quid vnquam docuit aut in concilio defendit Hussius c. What did Hus defend at any tyme or taught in the councel wherein he might not seeme euen superstitiously to agree with the Papists What doth the Popish fayth teach concerning Transubstantiation which he did not in like sort confirme with the Papists Who did celebrate Masses more religiously then he Or who more chastly did keep the vowes of Priestly single life Add hereto that touching freeâ—â—l fayth predeâ—â—nation the cause of iustification merit of Works what other thing taught he then was taught at Rome What Image of any saint did he cast out at Bethleem therefore what can we say for which he deserued death touching the which he is not a like to be condemned with the Sea of Rome or with it to be freed and absolued Thus far M. Fox with whom agreeth Luther thus writing of Hus The papists burned Hus when as he departed not a fingars breadth from the papacy for he taught the same which the papists do only he did find fault with their vices and wicked life agaynst the Pope he did nothing Thus Luther Besides all the Catholicke doctrines mantained by Hus he taught as aboue is touched the Heresy of Wiclef to wit that there are no Princes Priests or Bishopps whyle they are in mortall sinne as M. Fox recordeth with whom agreeth the Protestant Osiander thus wryting Nullus est Dominus ciuilis nullus est Praelatus nullus est Episcopus dum est in mortali peccato Haec propositio approhart non potest sed passus est Ioannes Hus hac in parte aliquid humani There is no Ciuill Prince no Prelate or Bishop whiles he is in mortall sinne This proposition cannot be approued but Iohn Hus suffered herein the infirmity of Man Now I cannot but admire the incredible boldnes of M. Fox who acknowledging the former Heresy mantayned by Hus but especially granting as shewed out of his owne words that Hus did hould all the cheise points and frame of the present Roman Religion was neuerthelesse not ashamed to pronounce Iohn Hus for a most holy Martyr as aboue is expressed meaning a martyr of his owne Protestant Church So gladly you Protestants for the supporting of the continuance and visibility of your Church do make clayme to any Catholicke or hereticke whosoeuer who in one only point of Religion though dissenting in all others may seeme to compart and interleague with you Thus far of Hus whom to legitimate for a Protestant you see it is impossible OCHINVS I must here agree in iudgment with Michaeas And this Instance had far better bene forborne then obtruded And indeed it is no small blemish to our Church to insist in such weake and insufficient examples But M. Doctour Let vs entreate you to rise vp to Higher tymes in your discourse D. REYNOLDS I will satisfy your desire The next then in whom I will instance shal be our owne Contryman Wicklef Whom all the world I hope will euen dispose that he was a perfect Protestant and that himselfe and his followers enioyed the administration of the Word and Sacraments the practize of which is acknowledged to be an essentiall note of the Churches Visibility This my opinion touching Wicklef being a Protestant is not myne alone but it is warranted with the authorityes of M. Fox and the learned Crispinus MICHAEAS Indeede M D. M. Fox Crispinus I grant do so teach but how truly Obserue what followeth and then geue vp your eauen and impartiall iudgment And yet before I come to the tuche of this point I must put you in mind what thy two former Protestants grant in the places by you cited that at Wickleffs reuolt supposing him to be a Protestant the Protestant Church was wholy inuisible for thus M. Fox writeth In the tyme of horrible darknes when there seemed in a manner to be no one so little sparke of pure doctrine left or remayning Wicklef by Gods prouidence rosevp through whom the Lord would first awaken raize vp againe the World Thus he This Wicklef being an Englishman as you know M. D. was a Catholicke Priest and Person of Lutterworth in Leicestershirs and as Stow relateth He first inueighed against the Church of Rome because he had bene depriued by the Archbishop of Canterbury from a certaine benefice He liued anno 1370. Now that Wicklef cannot be truly claymed for a Protestant I proue in that besides he was a Catholicke Priest and no Church of the Protestants then knowne to him he still retayned many Catholicke Opinions and withall taught diuers notorious Heresyes Touching his Catholicke Opinions still beleiued by him I will alledge diuers out of his owne Wrytings First he beleiued seauen Sacraments thus writing of them Quaedam sacramentaper se promulgauit Christus c. Certaine sacraments Christ did promulgate by himself as Baptisme the Eucharist the sacrament of Orders and of Penance certaine also by his Apostles as the sacraments of Confirmation and of Extreme
Vnction He also beleiued the rites and Ceremonyes of the Masse as appeareth in his booke de Apostasiac 18. Touching his praying to our Blessed Lady he thus in feruour writeth Hic videtur miht quod impossibile est nospraemiari sine Mariae suffragio It seemeth impossible to me for any man to be rewarded without the suffrage or prayers of Mary He acknowledged the worship of Relicks Images of which he thus saith Ador aneus imagines vnde signa c. conceditur it aque quòd reliquae Imagines c. sunt cum prudentia ador andae We worship Images as signes c. Therfore it is granted that relickes Images c. are to be worshipped with prudence Touching Merit of Works and works of Supererogation Wicklefe was so forward in defence thereof that Stow thus writeth of him Wicklefe and his disciples went in course russet garments downe to the heeleâ— seemed to contemne all temporall goods for the loue of eternall riches adiayned himselfe to the begging fryars approouing their pouerty and extolling their perfection He thus teaching with the Catholicks that a Religious and voluntary pouerty is the greatest abundance Besides these his seuerall Catholicks doctrines He defended diuers grosse Herefyes He first taught that all things came to passe by an absolute and stoicall Necessity He condemned lawfull Oathes sauoring as Osiander saith of Anabaptisms Touching Ecclesiasticall persons thus writeth Melancthon of Wicklefe Wicklefus contendit presbiteris non licere vt possideant quicquam proprium Wicklefe mantayneth that it is not lawfull for Priests to possesse any thing in propriety He further taught euen by the acknowledgment of M. Fox the Canonizer of the Pseudomartyrs of his Religion that if a Bishop or a Priest be in deadly sinne he doth not order consecrato or baptize Which point is also verifyed of Wicklefe by Osiander Furthermore Wicklefe did not only ascribe with Catholicks merit to works done in state of grace but he was so passionatly resolute herein as that as Waldensis witnesseth he taught merit of works done by force of nature with the Pelagians Finally Wicklefe taught that there is no Ciuill magistrate while he is in mortall sinne and this so grosly that Melancthon thus censureth him De Domino ciuili sophisticè planè seditiose vixatur Wicklefe disputeth of the ciuill magistrate sophistically and seditiously And according to this his doctrine in speculation his followers in great numbers did rise against the King And for such their treason diuers of them were apprehended and executed But to contract this point touching the Heresyes of Wicklefe This matter is so euident and confessed by diuers learned Protestants as that Pantaleon a Protestant placeth Wicklefe in the Catalogue of Hereticks thus writing Iohannes Wicklefus cum Lolhardis in Anglia suam Haeresim praedicat Iohn Wicklefe diâ—â—lgeth with the Lolhards his Heresy in England And Melancthon thus writeth in generall of him I haue found in Wicklefe many errours wherby a Man may iudge of his spirit Finally M. Fox though at other times gracing him with the title of a Protestant confesseth That VVicklefe vsed often for feare of persecution and danger to dissemble his Religion Which no man in the iudgment both of Catholicke and Protestant professing any conscience can lawfully do Thus much touching Wicklefe OCHINVS M. Doctour I must confesse euen betweene God and my conscience that hitherto the Vessell from whence you haue drawne all your former wine I meane examples of Protestancy is not good and pure But I hope we shall haue reason to say in regard of your other more conuincing Instances hereafter to follow with the cheife steward of the feast in the Gospell Thou hast kept the good wine vntill now But howsoeuer it is Truth is not so feeble as to be forced to leaue for it owne supporting vpon the cruches of any one mans ability NEVSERVS Truly hitherto the Examples of protestancy are insufficient for how can they be reputed Protestants who not only maintayne the most articles of the Romish Religion but also do pertinaciously iustify diuers confessed Heresyes Neuerthelesse I doubt not but Ochinus and my selfe shal be able to proue that the Protestant Church was enriched at all tymes with many of the faythfull though not alwayes it was so gloriously subiect to the eyes of others But M. D. what do you say to the tymes precedent to the former For we are most willing that Michaeas should haue good satisfaction giuen him herein D. REYNOLDS I say that in those tymes florished not two or three but many hundred Protestants For then liued VValdo from whom as from a most worthy stemme his branches the VValdenses are descended All which both the father and the Sonns euen in the iudgment of M. Fox were perfect Protestants In those tymes also were the Albigenses confessed for good Protestants Also the Henricians or Apostolici Peter Bruts learned Almericus and diuers others liued about those dayes Indeede there were so many Protestants in those tymes as I am partly troubled where to beginne to reckon them but may here say with the Poet Inopem me copia fecit MICHAEAS Thus M. D. are but ostentations And I see that saying verifyed in you Many through loue do hurt themselfs For you through your ouer much affecting to preserue the honour of your Church do indeed by prostituting diuers Pseudoprotestants indignify your Church For all these whom you now haue alledged are merely Excentrous as I may tearme them irregular Sectaries their doctrines indiffereÌ„tly mouing about the Poles of Catholicke Religion Protestancy Sensuality And first touching Waldo It is certaine that he was a Lay-man of Lyons in France vnlearned but rich and gaue money for the translating of the Scripture into his owne vulgar toÌ„gue Of him the Waldenses are deriued about the yeare 1218. Now that neither Waldo nor the VValdenses his followers were Protestants though they be much vrged for such by many Protestants is seuerall wayes prooued First in that they did still hould diuers Catholicke points as the Reall presence in the Blessed Sacrament of whom concerning the same point Caluin thus writeth Formula Confessionis c. The forme of the Confession of the Waldenses doth inuolue all those in eternall damnation who do not confesse that the breade is become truly the body of Christ They also maintayned seauen Sacraments the doctrine of Vowes of single life and of Purgatory with all which doctrines Benedictus Morgenstrensis a Lutheran chargeth the Waldenses and reprehendeth them for the same Lastly they were so full in defending the doctrine of merit of works as that as D. Humfrey writeth of VValdo He did forsake all things that being poore he might follow Christ the Euangelicall Perfections And in the end it did so faule out that his schollers and disciples were an Order of begging Fryars and commonly called the Poore Men of
say as of the halfeblood to a Protestant so little affinity there is betweene the Protestants Religion and these Mens religion I grant that some Protestants and these but very few and of meane esteeme do instance through their security of better examples in these your mentioned men but how coldy and weakly we will now discouer And first touching the Booke written against Images in the name of Carolus Magnus I say first that booke concerneth only but one point of Religion and consequently it can giue no proofe of Protestancy in those dayes Secondly I auer that it was forged by some Heretike that denyed the doctrine of Images perhapps in those dayes but neuer made or allowed by Carolus Magnus This I prooue first because Carolus Magnus was wholy addicted and deuoted to the Church of Rome and it fayth in generall And therefore the lesse probable it is that he should wrâ—t or suffer to be written in his name any booke inpugning but any one point of that Religion I will relate the words of Hospinian the Protestant touching his affection to the Catholicke fayth Thus be sayth Carolus Magnus nonsolum publicis edictis c. Charles the Great did not only command by publike Edicts that the Ceremonyes rites the Latin Masse of the Church of Rome and other decresse and Instituts of the Pope of Rome should be obserued through out the whole Empyre but also himselfe did force the Churches to these obseruations vnder payne of impresonments and other kinds of punishments with whom also conspireth in iudgment herein Crispinus M. Cowper and Osiander Secondly in that it is acknowledged by learned writers that Carolus Magnus was an enemy to those who impugned Images For Paulus Aemilius witnesseth that Carolus did send twelue Bishops vnto a Councel houlden at Rome vnder Pope Steuen in confutation of the errour of the Grecians against Images The same doctrine of Images as defended by Carolus is further confessed by the Centurists D. Cowper and by Ioannes Aurelianensis who liued in the tyme of Carolus Magnus Thirdly and lastly there are suspicious of the forgery of that Booke For it appeareth out of the booke of Pope Adrian to Carolus Magnus which booke was purposely written against that booke diuulged in Carolus his name that the said booke was then written by some secret enemy of Images a point so euident that Caluin intimateth the vncertainty of the Authour of that Booke thus saying Eâ—tat refutatorius liber sub Caroli Magni nomine c. There is extant a booke of refutation vnder the name of Carolus Magnus which we may easily gather to be made about that tyme so doubtfully and irresolutly Calum writeth of the authour of that Booke Touching the supposed booke of Beriram written de Corpore Sanguine Domine and dedicated to Charle the Bawld as said to impugne the doctrine of the Reall Presence in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist Which booke some thinke to haue bene forged by Oeculampadius in the name of Bertram I say M. D. first this booke writeth so doubtfully and intricatly of the Reall Presence vsing the words figure spirituall and Mystery with such qualifications as that no strong Argument against the Reall Presence can be drawne from thence yea which is more this booke so much fauoreth the Reall Presence as that the Centurists do thus censure of it Transubstantiationis semina habet Bertramus The booke of Bertram hath in it the seedes of Transubstantiation Secondly the Catholicke wryters of those tymes as Hospinian relateth at large did honour Bertram as a holy Martyr of the Catholicke Church How then is it probable that Bertram should wryte a booke against one of the cheifest Articles defended beleiued by the said Church Thus far of Bertram Touching Vlricke who was Bishop of Augusta who is vrged for a Protestant in that it is supposed he should wryte an Epistle to Pope Nicolas in behalfe of Priests Mariage and printed lately at Basill We reply that by force of all Reason this Epistle is but forged by some enemy of the Roman Church in his name and was written diuers yeares after Pope Nicolas was dead or before that Vlrick was borne For as Onuphrius writeth Pope Nicolas the first to whom it is supposed Vlrick should write was elected Pope anno 858. enioying the same nyne yeares and two months dyed anno 867. Whereas Vlrick was not made Bishop of Augusta till anno 924. Which was after the death of Pope Nicolas And he contemning Bishop fifty yeares dyed anno 973. Of which point we may reade Vspergensis Cytraeus Pantaleon D. REYNOLDS But what say you Michaeas touching Burengarius I hope it cannot be denyed but that he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation MICHAEAS I come to Burengarius who liued anno 1051. and was Archdeacon of Angiers who is challenged for a Protestant for his deniall of Transubstantiation in the most blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist I answere first It is true that for a time he impugned the doctrine of Transubstantiation yet afterwards he recanted his Heresy therein and dyed most Catholicke in that Article Secondly I answere that this Heretick-Catholicke Berengarius did hould diuers errours euen in the iudgment of Oecolampadius the Protestant who thus writeth of him Berengarius non nulla affirmat aduersus Baptismum parnulorum coniugium Berengarius affirmeth diuers things against the Baptisme of Infants and Marriage And againe Damnata est Berengarij Opinio Sacerdotio Christiano parum minus tribuens The Opinion of Berengarius is condemned which ascribed ouer little to Christian Priesthood Also Papir Masson in his Annals of France writeth that Berengarius and his followers denyed the grace of Baptisme denyed that men committing mortall sinne could euer obtaine Pardon and further that Berengarius was an enemy to Mariage Thus much of Berengarius his owne and his followers Heresyes though himselfe before his death according to the iudgment of certaine Catholicke Writers recanted his Heresyes But M. D. and you Gentlemen I will conclude this passage with recurring to one obseruation aboue set downe suppose therefore for the tyme that these former bookes were doubtfull but truly penned by the Authours vnder whose name they go suppose also that Berengarius had neuer recanted his heresy in denying of Transubstantiation suppose finally that you may alledge diuers other sectaryes houlding this or that point of Protestancy yet what can all this conuince It can neuer proue any Visibility of the Protestant Church seeing all these thus admitted are but the Examples of one or other priuate Man who was originally Catholicke and after embraced some one or two points of Protestancy still remayning in all other articles wholy Catholicke And therefore I much commend the Ingenuity of D. Fulke herein who foreseing the impertinency of these Examples of Bertram Berergarius and those others reiecteth them in these
sheepfould but clymeth another way is a theife I now demand M. Doctour who did call Luther Hus Wicklefe c. to preach the word and administer the Sacraments Or by whom were they sent D. REYNOLDS I here answere with Caluin Beza and D. Fulke that they had extraordinary calling immediatly from God in reguard of the Popes tiranny in those dayes and the ouerflowing of superstition of those tymes MICHAEAS This is but extrauagantly spoken and merely forged by you Protestants M. D. as hauing no other colour to warrant your calling But to refute this phantasy Extraordinary calling is euer accompanyed as it was in the Apostles with working of miracles euen by the iudgment of the Protestants theÌ„selfe Among whom Luther thus expostulateth others of their extraordinary calling saying Vnde venis quis te 〈…〉 isâ—◠〈…〉 isunt 〈…〉 que is a Deo missum esse testantur See how by Gods prouidence Luthers penne turneth vpon himselfe And therefore D. Bilsâ—n as wholy reiecting all extraordinary Calling not warranted with Miracles thus confesseth They can haue no part of Apostolicall Commission who haue no shew of Apostolicall succession Thus then Luther Huâ— Wicklefe and the rest are exempted from all extraordinary Calling immediatly by God himselfe since their Calling was neuer confirmed with the working of any one miracle euen in the iudgment of D. Fulke whose words are these It is knowne that Caluin and the rest whom Papists call Archhereticks do worke no Miracles D. REYNOLDS Some learned Protestants to wit D. Whitakers D. Bridges and others do auerre that it is not improbable to affirme that Wicklefe Hus Luther c. receaued their calling from the Church of Rome Which calling was conferred vpon them before their departure out of that Church Which opinion of theirs admitting it for true taketh away the supposed difficulty of this your Argument MICHAEAS Neuer M. D. doth the poore and fearefull hayre vse before the hounds more windings and turnings to saue her life then you Protestants do here to salue your Vocation for you being here stabled to get your selfe out of the myre sometymes affirme your calling to be extraordinary and immediate from God warranted by him with certaine Euthusiasms forsooth and illuminations But when the vanity of that pretext is layd open then you fly to the Catholicke Roman Church making it your Sanctuary But see with what an absurdity this your later Answere is accompanyed For besides that Walde as being a Layman neuer receaued any calling from thence Why do you and others most contumeliously call the Roman Church Antichristian seing it seemes you confesse that it is able to conferre true Calling to Luther Hus and the rest and to their successours or descendents which ability and power is peculiar only to the true Church For if the Pope be Antichrist and his Church Antichristian as your Brethren in their pulpitts do vociferate then how can you pretend their Calliâ—g to be sufficient and warrantable seing your owne men teach that in Babylon meaning thereby the Church of Rome there is no holy Order or Ministery indeed but a mere vsurpation And most certaine it is and confessed by all learned Men that Antichrist cannot auaylably confer commission for the Preaching of the Word of Christ and admitting the Sacraments of Christ Now if Luther Hus Wicklefe and the rest do want true calling then they cannot be any true visible Pastours of Christs Church and consequently they cannot iustify in themselfs their Churches visibility So plunged we see you Protestants are when you are demanded to iustify the calling of Luther Hus Wicklefe and their successours And thus far now Learned Men to demonstrate that supposing Waldo Wicklefe Hus Luther and the rest instanced in your precedent passages had bene in all points of beliefe Protestants that they had otherwise neyther comparted with the Catholicks in any Catholicke doctrines nor had defended any grosse and acknowledged Heresyes yet it is most euident in reguard of the Reasons and arguments here alledged that the examples of them are defectiue and insufficient to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church in that manner as the visibility of Christs Church is taught both by Catholicke and Protestant and peculiarly by our selfs according to the beginning of this our disputation OCHINVS With M. Doctour good leaue who hath showed great reeding in his former examples though they be not so conuincing and pregnant as I did hope to find them Neuserus and I will vndertake to iustify the visibility of our Protestant Church in all precedent ages And you are heare Learned Michaeas to know I am of opinion that supposing no instances at all of Protestancy could be giuen for all these former tymes by you mentioned yet followeth it not that therefore there were no Protestants in those tymes which is only the Question betweene vs for many Reasons may be giuen why the names of such Professours are not now knowne to vs of these dayes And one Reason may be this you know well the Popes for many ages haue borne more then a serpentine malice to the Protestant Religion euer endeuouring by all meanes possible to extirpate it out Therefore my iudgment is that their rage and fury was so precipitate and violent agaynst the Protestants of formes ages as they labored by all courses to extinguish all remembrance of them as by burning the books written in those tymes by Protestants by purposely making away of all other Records of Protestancy and by an absolute concealing the names of all Protestants thus hoping that the Memory of them might be interred with their Bodyes This is my opinion I meane that there neuer was an vtter disparition and vanishing away of the Protestant Church in auncient tymes but only that the names and Professours of that Church were most diligently concealed from all after tymes through the Popes affected malignity MICHAEAS It is strange to obserue the exhorbitant proceeding of Protestants in matters of Religion For sometimes you Protestants do diuulge in your wrytings that there can be named Protestants liuing in euery Century since Christ as you M. D. in the frontispice of this discourse with great venâ—itation did vndertake to performe Now you retyre backe Ochiâ—â—s from M. D. assertion and say doubtlesly there were Protestants in all ages though their names and memoryes by some indirect course or other were concealed from Posterity So distracted you are in your owne iudgements passed vpon one and the same point at seuerall tymes Which certainly must be reputed as a Moale in the face of a learned man since now zealously to affect an opinion at another tyme to let the same saulle by entertayning the contrary opinion is but the Ague of an irresolute and inconstant iudgement But to come to the point First I say that this euasion of Ochinus mainly ouerthwarteth M. Dâ—â—tours former Instances For if the names of all Protestants were buried in forgetfulnes by the Popes
who in externall profession of fayth did in any sort dissent from them And you know how aduerse Aduersity is to Mans inclination And therfore the lesse wounder if the rayes of protestancy were in former tymes ouerclowded with the mysts of persecution MICHAEAS Indeed I haue read that Antonius sadellius a protestant of no vulgar note giueth this reason of the latency of his Church and of the want of administration of the word and Sacrament in former ages with whom it seemes you Newserus in iudgment do ioyne But to poyze the weight of this reason Where first I must put you in mind that it being approoued maketh the protestant Church to be wholy inuisible in former tymes and so destroyeth the mayne Thesis or Tenet mantayned by you all in the begining of this disputation who ioyntly did auer that the Protestant Church was in all ages visible the professours of it were knowne and discernable But to let that passe Thus I argue in further disproouall of this your poore refuge The Church of God vnder persecution eyther communicateth openly with the false visible Church in participation of Sacraments and externall profession of Fayth Or els she doth refraine from all such externall communion If she doth not communicate with it then by such her refrayning she is made knowne and consequently is become therevisible If she doth communicate with a false and idolatrous Church as you repute the Church of Rome to be then is she not the true Church since the true Church cannot brooke any such dissimulation I will enlarge my selfe vpon the seuerall parts of this Argument And first that the true Church by not communicating with a false Church is in regard of the persecution comming thereby made visible is cleere euen in reason it selfe For who are persecuted but Men that are knowne And how can one lying secretly and vnknowne be sayd to be persecuted A point so euident that M. Curtwright confesseth that the Church vnder persecution is visible and sensible for els sayth he how could it be persecuted Yea he further thus contesteth with his Aduersary saying To let passe both Scriptures and storyes Ecclesiasticall haue you forgotten what is sayd in the first of Exodus that the more the children of Israel were persecuted the more they encreased With whom agreeth M. Iewell saying The Church is placed vpon a mount her persecutions cannot be hid I may truly ad herto that the greater and more violent the persecution is the more visible knowne and conspicuous is the Church made thereby like to a ship which the more it is tossed with waues and storms the higher to the eye it appeareth or like vnto an Arch in building which the greater weight and burden it beares the more strong and firme it remaynes The truth of which point is further warrantable from the example of the persecution in the Primitiue Church which of all pressures of the Church was incomparably the greatest And yet we find that the particular Bishops Confessours Martyrs are euen to this day made knowne who they were and what Heresyes or false Religion they impugned And this from the penns not only of Catholicke Historiographers but euen of Protestants of which subiect you may peruse the Centurists Pantaleon Functius Osiander and M. Fox And may not the English Catholicks if I be truly informed deseruedly here insist in the Examples of their owne Nation The Catholicks whereof in regard of their former persecutions in Queene Elizabeth her reigne are so far from being latent and inuisible as that they were become most famous remarkable throughout all Christendome O pietatem de crudelitate lndentem Are not the names and memoryes of those reuerend Priests and others of the Laity to speake nothing of many worthy Confessours and others suffering great losses and disgraces who lost their liues in her dayes only for Religion whose blessed soules I humbly beseech to interceede and pray for me to our Sauiour Are not their names and memories I say euen to this day fresh and liuing haue their deaths obliterated extinguished their memoryes or rather through a speaking silence perpetuated and eternized them their liues being by this meanes extended beyond their liues Who by reason of their then calamities and pressures too well knowne to God and Man became balls to that state and might iustly complayne in the words of the Apostle Spectaculum facti sumus mundo Angelis Hominibus Such were the stormy flouds innundations and ouerflowings of persecution in the sayd Queenes tyme. But to returne and to apply this here said If the Catholicks in this Country being but a small part of Christendome could not but for some few number of yeares in comparison escape the search and hands of their persecutors but became therby most visible and knowne the very Ayre ecchoing forth their miseryes How could then the Protestants being supposed to be dispersed throughout many Nations lye hid and auoid for so many ages together as is pretended the force of that persecution which is affirmed by our Aduersaryes to haue bene far more greiuous then euer this of England was NEVSERVS I pray you Michaeas descend to the second part of your former Argument And first tell me your iudgment if it be not lawfull for auoyding of losse of goods or death it selfe sometymes to conceale our Religion MICHAEAS No we neuer ought to conceale our profession of fayth for feare of any punishment how great soeuer for here nolle confiteri negare est And though we are not to importune persecution for this were to tempt God or to take a spirituall pride in our afflictions for our Profession of fayth yet if the temporall Prince do impose any miseryes vpon vs our Religion we are with all alacrity Christian magnanimity patiently to endure the same euer continuing in our former Religion loyalty and obedience and powring cut our daily prayers to the Almighty that he would vouchsafe to touch the sayd Princes hart with commiseration of our despicable and betrampled estates and to grant him all true temporall and eternall happines our selfs in the meane tyme euer remayning confortable Quid hic mali est cuius reus gaudet cuius accusatio votum est paena faelicitas But I will come to the second branch which contayneth the reason of this my Assertion Which was That if the Church of Christ doth communicate with a false and idolatrous Church she ceaseth ipso facto to be the true Church of God This is most euident out of Gods sacred Writ which teacheth vs. that with the hart a man beleiueth vnto Iustice and with the mouth confesseth vnto saluation Which text is truly paraphrazed by D. Field in these words Seing the Church is the multitude of them that shal be saued And no man can be saued vnlesse he make Confession â—nto saluation for fayth hid and concealed in the hart
tameisi externâ—â—ritus non proâ—sus negligerent vt communi consueâ—â—dino quasi torrente rapido arriperentur vt eadem cum alijs facerent The faythfull of those tymes did not apply their minds to to those popish idolatrous worships although they did not wholy neglect their externall rites and ceremonies and they were led with common custome as men caryed with a violent streame to do the same things with the Papists Quorum infirmitatem Deuâ— tolerauit â—ondonauit Whose infirmityes herein God did tolerate pardon Thus Osiander doth apologize for his Protestant Church in former tymes From whose testimony we see that the last sublimated sense of your former sentence resolues to this point To wit that the Protestant Church in those former tymes being in or vnder the Papacy did through feare of burning or banishment or some other persecution dissemble their Religion and communicate in all eternal rites and ceremonyes with the Church of Rome This is the sole true construction of the foresayd quaynt sentence though the former Protestants and perhapps also your selfe Newserâ—s thought it good policy to deliuer this their meaning to their followers in nyce and artificiall words as Physitians are accustomed to giue their most bitter pils rowled in sugar But seeing this point of grosse and palpable dissimulation in Religion is sufficiently discussed in our last passage I will enlarge my selfe no further therein NEVSERVS Michaeas I must confesse that vpon my more serious and intense obseruation of what you haue here spoken touching our deliuery of our former Answere that it is like to the spydars web artificially wouen but to small purpose And indeed in a true examining of it it is as you rightly say but the former Answere drawne from persecution though fashioned a new in an other mould OCHINVS I do acknowledg the same with Neuserus And therefore it is but losse of tyme to insist in such Extrauagancyes and phanâ—asyes But to proceed if there were no other reason to euict the visibility c. If there were no other reason to euict the visibility of the Protestant Church yet this following is of it selfe sufficient The true Church of Christ is euer to be visible as we all aboue haue taught Now we can prooue out of Scriptures that the Protestant Church is only the true Church Therefore we may infallibly conclude that the Protestant Church hath euer bene most visible That our Church is the true Church of Christ we proue in that it professeth that fayth which is agreable to the holy Scripture This is our demonstration This is our Asylum Here we need not to recurre to Ecclesiasticall Historyes or to search out examples of protestancy for euery age since this reason comprehendeth within it selfe all ages as a greater number doth the lesser MICHAEAS Indeede I grant this Argument is the Mayster-peece in all your shopps and as you well tearme it your Sanctuary But may not the Arians the Anabaptists or any other Hereticks prooue by the same ground their Church euer to haue bene visible Who no doubt with as great confidence as your selfs do will maintayne that they can iustify their Church from the Scripture it selfe to be the only true Church of God See how you Protestants here labour with the generall Infirmity of all Sectaryes and see how truly that Aphorism of the Physitians is verifyed in you and them to wit One and the same Symptome is incident to seuer all diseases But seing Doctour Whitakers for his vpshot did cast his last argument in his conference with Cardinal Bellarmyne in this your frame mould to prooue that the Church of Rome had altered it Religion because said he it fayth and Religion is contrary to the holy Scripture Therefore as loath to obtund your eares with a fastidious iteration of the same points I referre you to the full answere of the Cardinall giuen therto Only before I here cease I will patterne this your Euasion If then some slippery fellow should truly owe your Ocbinus a hundred pounds and ought to pay it by ten pounds euery yeare The yearely dayes of paymeÌ„ts being come you require of him the siluer He confidently auerreth that he hath payed you euery yeare the allotted portion of ten pounds till the whole hundred was payd You deny the same and will him eyther to show some quittance of any one payment or produce some witnesses thereof or relate some circumstance eyther of tyme or place where the yearely paymeÌ„ts were made Now he not being able to make good any one of these points not so much as but for one yeares payment flyeth to this shift saying Euery man of honesty integrity and sufficiency will pay his debts according to the due tymes of payment But he is assured that himselfe is in the number of thesâ— men professing honesty integrity and sufficiency Therefore certayne it is that he hath payed the foresayd hundred pounds within the prescribed tymes of payment Thus this Cheater bringeth his owne honesty which may iustly be called in Question as a Medium for proofe of these his imaginary payments as you do alledge the Conformity of the Protestants Religion to the Scripture for the supposed visibility of your Protestans Church for many ages Now Ochinus if you like this mans answere for both his and yours are wouen in one the same loome my wish then is that the next tyme you lend any siluer you may for a punishment of your ignorance herein be repayed backe after the same manner NEWSERVS I cannot but ingeniously confesse that our flying to the Scripture in this place serues only but to preuent the instancing of Protestants for former tymes And so to make a subtill and flye transition from the expected examples of Protestancy to the vniformity of the Protestant Religion with the Scripture And indeed it is but a Paralogisme or fallacy called Petitio principij consisting in assuming that to be proued and confested which is most in Question For the mayne Question betweene the Papists and vs is Whether their Religion or ours is more agreable to Gods Word And Michaeas I confesse you speake the truth in saying that euery Hereticke will appeale to the Scripture and will vrge a conformity of his fayth to it and consequently may seeke to iustify his owne Churches visibility by this his Appeale Whose Priuate spirit forsooth by detorting of the Scripture is able to Proiect any text thereof as Alâ—hymists do of Mettalls so as it shall endure the touch for the gilding ouer of his Heresy An Haeretici sayth old Vincentius Lyrinensis Diuini Scripturae testimonijs vtantur Viuntur planè vehement er quidem sed tantò magis cauendi sunt OCHINVS Indeed now vpon a second reuiew of this my argument I do not find that force in it which in the beginning it seemed to cary And I do see that euery Hereticke I meane in his owne iudgement and according to his owne false interpretation of Scripture
may challenge the Scripture for the fortifying of his Heresyes as fully as we Protestants can do And therefore I do allow that former sentence of Vincentius alledged by you Neuserus D. REYNOLDS I haue found some of our owne learned brethren to teach though aforehand I tell you Michaeas that I dissent in opinion from them that the Church of Rome and the Protestant Church are but one and the same Church from which position they inferre that seeing the predictions of the continuall Visibility of the Church of God and an vninterrupted administration of the Word and Sacraments haue bene performed at least as you Romanists do auerâ—e in the Church of Rome that consequently ours and yours being but one Church they are performed in the Protestant Church And according hereto we find M. Hooker thus to teach We gladly acknowledg them of Rome to be of the family of Iesus Christ c. And agayne we say that they of Rome c. are to be held a part of the house of God a limme of the visible Church of Christ with whome conspireth D. Some thus graunting The learneder Wryters acknowledge the Church of Rome to be the Church of God But this Opinion I haue to the liberty of euery one eyther to retayne it or reiect it MICHAEAS Here now you Protestants are retyred to your last refuge and hould And thus is Errour glad to be shrowded vnder the Wings of Truth For whereas the most dispassionate sober learned Protestants among you do grant that for many ages before Luthers reuolt they cannot truly and really iustify the visibility of their Church in particular much lesse the administration of the word and Sacraments And yet during all the sayd ages they see that all this is actually accomplished in our Catholicke Roman Church They are therefore forced to giue back and to retyre in all their former answeres And at length are driuen for the supporting of their owne Church to say that the Protestant Church the Roman Catholicke Church are identically but one and the same Church And thereupon they inferre as you M. Doctour say that seing our Catholicke Church be generall acknowledgment hath euer continued visible during all the former ages that therefore your Protestant Church both being but one and the same by their curteous yeelding hath also enioyed the same priuiledge of a perpetuall Visibility and the like administration of the Word and Sacraments So ready you Protestants are for the preseruing only of your owne imaginary Church in former tymes to ioyne hands with they Catholicks if so they would agree therto you granting that your owne Succession calling and Ministery is and hath bene for former ages continued and preserued only in the Succession calling Ministery of our Catholicke Roman Church And according to this our meaning M. Bunny a Protestant of good esteeme here in England dealeth plainly ingeniously herein for he not only teacheth as the former Protestants do but giueth sincerely the true reason of such their doctrine to wip that otherwise they cannot proue the being of the Protestant Church during so many former ages for thus he writeth Of the departing from the Church there ought to be no question amang vs. We are no seuerall Church front them meaning from vs Catholicks nor they from vs And therefore there is no departing at all out of the Church Nor any do deparâ— from them to vs nor from vs to them c. And yet more fully It was euill done of them who vrged first such a separation c. For that it is great probability for them meaning vs Catholicks that so we make our selfâ— answerable to find out a distinct and seuer all Church from them which hath continued from the Apostles age to this present Or els that needs we must acknowledge that our Church is sprung vp but of late or since theirs And finally M. Bunny thus concludeth Our Aduersaryes see themselues to haue aduantage if they can ioynt vs to this separation Thus M. Bunny But touching my particular iudgment herein I vtterly with all Catholicks disclayme from mantayning that our Church and the Protestant Church is all one And I confidently auerre that this strange Paradox is inuented by Protestants for the reasons aboue expressed OCHINVS What is the matter brought to this Issue that we must grant the Papists Church and our Church to be one and the same Church Is this M. Doctour the euent of our disputation I will here imprecate with the Poet against myselfe Sed mihi vel tellus optem priùs ima debiscat Vel Pater Omnipotens adigat â—â—fulâ—ine ad vmbraâ— Pallâ—â—ies vmbras Erebi â—octeâ—que profundam Before I acknowledge the Synagogue of Rome to be the Church of God NEVSERVS I giue you free leaue Ochinâ—s to include me within this your imprecation For I will dye the death of a sinner before I grant that the Popish Church is the same with the Protestant Church What shall Superstition and Idolatry by our owne consents be aduanced and set vp side by side with the Gospell in the throwne of Gods Tabernacle It is a thing insufferable and the thought thereof is not so much as once to be entertayned MICHAEAS Gentlemen good words God grant your owne Prayers agaynst your selfs be not heard And though I be of your mynd that the Catholicke Church and your Church is not all one Church yet if before your deaths you do not acknowledge the Church of Rome for the true Church doublesly your prayer wil be heard when your selfs though too late shall with vnutterable but improfitable remoâ—se condemne your selfs of your owne grosse consideration in so weighty a matter But M. Doctour and you two Hitherto we see our discourse hath bene cheifly spent in your obiecting Arguments for your Churches visibility and my answering of them Now I do expect that our Scenes be altered And that I may insist in obiecting what I haue red confessed euen by the most learned Protestants touching this subiect For these alternatiue variations of parts in dispute are in all Reason and by custome of all Schooles most warrantable D. REYNOLDS We giue you good leaue For it argueth a great distrust diffidence in a Mans cause to tye his aduersary only to answere and neuer to suffer him to oppose And it is as vnreasonable as if in a Duelisme the one party should be indented with only toward and neuer to sryke Therefore proceed Michâ—â—s at your pleasure MICHAEAS Truth sayth S. Augustin iâ— mâ—re foroible to wrâ—ng 〈◊〉 Confession then any rackâ— or tormâ—nt Which sentence we fyâ—d to be iustifyed in this Question of the Protestant Churches Inuisibility For diuers learned Protestants there are who as being more ingenuous and vpright in their wrytings and in their managing of matters of Religion then others of their party as well discerning the insufficiency of all pretended Instances and other colorable euasions and answeares which
contrary to the necessary Visibility of Gods true Church proued out of the Scriptures acknowledged by their owne learned Brethren their owne Church to haue beene wholy latent and inuisible or rather wholy extinct and annihilated for so many ages together But this we must asâ—rybe O God to thy holy permission who as thou suffered in the tyme of the Old TestameÌ„t thyne Enemyes to sheath their swords in their brethrens sydes so heare thoâ— permiteest for the greater honour of thy Church so many learned Protestants euen with wounderfull admiration sweete Iesus deadly to wounde their owne Church fayth and Religion with their owne penns D. REYNOLDS Forbeare Michaeas these woundering Interiections the accustomed Dialect of an vngouerned Passion I grant these learned Protestants aboue alledged were of this opinion Notwithstanding to confront their authorityes there may be found many others as learned and iudicious Protestants as these are who absolutly mantayne the Visibility of their Church for all ages And I see no reason but that the sentences and iudgemeÌ„ts of these other should preponderate and weighe equally with the iudgements of the former Protestants by you alledged MICHAEAS You must pardon me M. Doctour if I wounder at things so strangly and vnexpectedly fauling out But to your solution I say it is most defectiue for seuerall reasons First because it mainly crosseth the method agreed vpon amonge vs in the beginninge of our discourse where you tyed your selfe irrephâ—ably to stand to the iudgments and confession of your owne learned Men. Againe though you can bringe other Protestants of as greate eminency for learninge as these by me obiected yet except you and the said Protestants will insist in true and confessed Instances of Protestancy for euery seuerall age which is impossible for you to performe your and their asseuerations are to be reputed but naked verball and inauayleable Lastly and principally your Replye is insufficient Becaus I heare alledge Protestants confessinge the Inuisibility of their owne Church to their owne mighty preiudice and the Catholycks greate aduantage And therefore it must needs be that the racke of Truth forced them being otherwyse ingenuous learned and iudicious to all such Confessions Whereas such Protestants as may be brought to gainsay and contradict the former Confession as being men of more spatious and large Consciences do spake in their owne cause and behalf and therefore as being ready pressed to auere any thinge how false soeuer for the safery of their Church are deseruedly to be reputed in their wrytings more partiall So as in this case the Words of Tertullian may iustly take place Magis fides prouâ— est in aduersus sometâ—psos confitentâ—â— quam pro 〈◊〉 â—egantes NEVSERVS I lyke well Michaeas the reason of your disparity geuen touching some Protestants confessing against themselfs and others affirming the contrary to their owne aduantage OCHINVS The difference set downe by you is most foreible for no doubte the open Confession of one learned Aduersary is to ouerballance twenty denying the same euen for that peculiar reason aboue mentioned D. REYNOLDS Michaeas Suppose for the tyme that we could not proue our Churches perpetuali Visibility yet seinge you are not able if you were pressed thereto to iustify and make good the Visibility of your owne Roman Church during all the ages since the Apostles dayes Therefore looke into what danger through our confessed Inuisibility we may be presumed to tune within the same we may justly includ you And thus you owne argument rebucts vpon your selfe MICHAEAS Heare I see M. D. that for meare want of positiue arguments to support your owne Church you are lastly fled to picke quarrells at our Church as if it were a iustification of yourselfs that wee Catholycks did labour with your infirmities lyke men who reioyce to haue compartuers in misery But to your point vrged say it is impertinent to the whole drift of our dispute which was only touching the want of Visibility in the Protestant Church which alone to proue was by me vndertaken the visibilitye of the Catholycke Church comminge in incidently lyke as a discours of vice doth often in the End biget some specches of Vertue our Contrary being thus brought to our remembrance by meanes of the other Contrary But because M. D. you shall discouer no tergiuersation in vs herein and that here to entreate of the continuall Visibility of our Catholycke Church violateth our former imposed method Therefore I will pawne my credit that there shal be left with you certaine prouffs conâ—ayninge the expresse and confessed Visibility of our Roman Church from the Apostles to these dayes And this by the acknowledgment of sundry learned Protestants though heare by the way I must tell you that the confessed Inuisibility of the Protestant Church during so many former Ages doth potentially and vertually include the proufe of the Visibility of our Roman Church during the said ages Seing the Inuisibility of your Church for so longe a tyme is ascribed by you Protestants as appeareth by many of the former Protestants testimonyes to be the worke of Antichtist you meaninge thereby the Pope and the Church of Rome therefore it ineuitably followeth from your owne Primisses that Popes and the Church of Rome haue euer beene visible during all the said former Ages and Centuryes OCHINVS Newserus I would haue a word or two with you in priuate therefore if it please you let vs walke a little a part NEVSERVS I am willingthereto go into the next roome and I will follow you OCHINVS You see here Neuserus how this Question of the Protestant Churches visibility hath bene discussed and argued And I must consesse that Michaeas hath euen in replicably demonstrated that the Protestant Church hath at least for many ages bene inuisible or rather extinct you see also how royatous and abounding the old Testamentâ—s in prophecyes and other testimonies that the Church in the daye of the true Messias shal be at all cyâ—res most conspicuous and visible Therefore what resteth but that eyther we must reiect the old Testament which I neuer will do for falsly prophetying of the state of the Church Or els we must denye that these tymes of the new Testament are the tymes of Grace that the Church erected by Christ and his Apostles as wanting the accomplishment of the foresayd predictions is the true Church which later poynt I hould to be more probable NEVSERVS You haue preuented me Ochinus in tyme of speaking but not in iudgment For to confesse the truth after I had obserued the weaknes of the Instances alledged though alledged by the Doctour with as much Scholarlike Art and aduantage as might be my houering thoughts transported my iudgment to this your Center Which though it be enuironed with difficultyes yet I hould it the more safe way with you since the one must necessarily be reiected as false and erroneous they so diametrically crossing one the other to retayne our former reuerence to
sinnes of Saule the Publican MICHAEAS M. Doctour you do well and like a Christian Doctour to endeauour to reâ—all home these two wretches Yet touching the paucity of Protestanticall Apostates by you pretended it seemâ—s your Memory wrongs your Reading For it is a vast vntruth to affirme that only Ochinus and Neuserus haue reuolted to Turcisme and Iudaâ—sme For did not Dauid George a cheife Protestant and once Professour at Basil become a blasphemous Apostata who affirming our Sauiour to be a seducer and grounding himselfe with Ochinus Nâ—userâ—s vpon the not accoÌ„plishment of the Prophesyes of the Churches visibility in the Protestant Church thus writeth Si Christi Apâ—stolorâ—an doctrina vera perfecta fuisset c. If the doctrine of Chrâ—st and his Apostles had bene true aâ—d perfect the Church which they had planted should haue contâ—nued c. But now it is manifest that Antichrisi hath subuerted the doctrine of the Apostles and the Church by them begunne c. therefore the doctrine of the Apostles was false and imperfect Thus that impâ—ous Iew And was not Alamannus a Swinglian and once most familiar with Beza who perswading himselfe that the prophecyes touching the continuall visâ—bility of the Church were not performed in Christ his Chuâ—ch because he saw they were not performed in the Protestant Church did thereupon renounce Christianity and became a blasphemious Iew a point so euident that Beza himselfe notwithstanding their former inwardnes and friendship thus writeth of him Alamanum affirmant ad â—udaâ—smum dâ—fecisse Did not Georgius Paulus minister of Cracouia deny the Trinity with the Turkes In like sort Conefius and Laelius Socinus a schollar in the schoole of Geneua who writ whole books against the B. Triâ—ity vpon the former grounds forsooke the Christian fayth And this Socinus as Beza witnesâ—eth so at the first corrupted the first chapter of S. â—ohn his Ghospell which speaketh so plainâ—ly of Christ as that Beza saith of him mihâ— quidem videtur omnes corrupâ—ores longè superasse In like sort Andreas Vâ—lanus a great Caluinisâ— not only became in the end a Turke but infected many others with his wrytings agaynst the Bleâ—sâ—ed Trinity and Christian fayth But if you haue a desire to râ—ede of more Protestants who became Turkes and Iewes as presuming that the former Prophecyes were not performed in the Church of God I referre you to a booke to which I thinke you are no stranger I meane to that most elaborate and mother-booke for it hath giuen byrth to diuers others written by your owne brother M. William Reynolds and called Caluino Turcismus You may also to the same end peruseÌ„ Conradus Slussenberg and Osiander both Protestants where I presume your stomacke wil be soone gluted with the displeasing gust of diuers others there related And now in the through of these examples my thoughts are caried to Sebastian Castalio once Professour at Basill And one highly extolled by your owne D. Humfrey and others This Castalio though he went not so fare as by open breach and Apostasy to leaue the fayth of Christ yet in regard that the former predictions touching the spreading of Christs Church and the euer vneclipsed conspituity of it were not in his iudgment performed in Christ Church he writeth very perplexedly hereof to King Edward the sixt in this Maner Equidem aut hâ—c futura f 〈…〉 endum est c. Truly it is to be confessed that these predictions are either to be performed hereafter or haue bene allredy or that otherwyse God is to be accused of lyinge Yf it be said they haue bene allready accomplished I aske of hym When Yf he answeare in the Apostles dayes I demand then how it happeneth that neithâ—r then the knowledg of God was wholy perfect and why it so soone vanished away which was promised to be eternall and more abundant then the floudds of the Sea And then without saluing this his difficulty he finally thus dowbtfully concludeth Quo magis libros sacros considero eo minus hactenus praestitum video vtcumque oracula illa intelligas The more â—peruse the Scriptures the lesse do I find the same performed howsoeuer you vnderstand the said Prophecies See with what a fearefull and wauering trepitation of iudgment this learned Caluinist writeth of this point through his false supposall that the Catholycke Church is not the Church of God but cheiffly through his true acknowledgment that the former Prophecies were not performed in the Protestant Church And thus far of these Examples But if you will haue a censure whether any Protestants or rather Caluinists turne Arians or no who as denying the most Blessed Trinity are litle bettar then Turks or Iewes I will giue it in this Neuserus his owne words and if I wrong hym herein let hym now before you charge me who thus hath left written None is knowne in our tyme to be made an Arian who was not a Caluinist as Seruetus Blandrata Paulus Alchianus Gentilis Gebraldus Siluanus and others therefore who feareth to faule into Arianisme let hym take heede of Caluinisme Thus you Neuserus so certaine it is that Arianisme Turcisme and Iudaisme are the last sublimations of Caluinisme Well M. Doctour I am cloyed with the society of this discours and can hardly endure any longer with patience the sight of these two Wretches belcking forth such horrible poyson And therefore I will now leaue you and perhapps instaÌ„tly after vpon some vrgent occasions leaue England I could haue wished that this our Dispute had made a deeper impression in you then I feare it hath for your incorporating into the Catholicke Church Neuer the lesse I will pray to God that before your dissolution you may be more solicitous and carefull in this so great a matter which concerns your Soules happines or infelicity for all eternity Touching my selfe I do ingeniously protest that now by meanes of this discours I seeing the weaknes of all that which may be vrged by the learnedest Protestants in defence of this Churches visibility am become hereby more setled and strenghtned in the Catholicke fayth and Religion then afore I was if more I can be But now before I end I cannot but put you in mind M. Doctour how fouly you were ouertaken in your defence of this impious Ochinus for his writing against the sacrifice of the Masse where you may well see that to deny the sacrifice which was first instituted by our Sauiour is a fitting preparation towards the after denyall of our Sauiour himselfe D. REYNOLDS I must confesse Michaeas that notwithstanding whatsoehath bene sayd in this discourse I still remayne a member of the Protestant Church assuring my selfe it is the true Church of Christ Touching my defence of Ochinus his wryting I did it out of my conscience and my conscience I trust will warrant it at the last day For your present departure I am agreiued
we shall losse you so soone Only I would entreate you to haue in your discourses wheresoeuer you shall hereafter come a tender and gentill touch of the Protestant Church of all the true and constant members thereof And herewith Worthy Michaeas I take my last farewell MICHAEAS M. Doctour of your selfe I will euer speake answerably to your desarts Nobly and with great respect Since you are a Man whose barke is richly fraught with learning Morality And what defects haue bene committed by you in this dispute I do wholy ascribe them to your want of a good cause not to your want of good parts And if there haue bene any words misplaced by vs on eyther syde sâ—t the thought of them vanish away since they were spoken Antagonisticeâ— and in heaâ—e of disputation And so in all kindnes Christian charity I leaue you with this my aduise that you will not aduenture your saluation vpon your owne priuate conscience preferring it before the Iudgement and conscience of the vniuersall visible Catholicke Church As for you two fagotts of Hell-fire I grant my eyes euen sparkle forthâ—râ—ge in behoulding of you And I account contrary to the place of the burning bush the place wherin you stand to be cursed ground â—or since your Sunne is so fâ—rie of you I meane your excepted false Messias what can you looke but for a winter of could dispayre and damnation Therefore I will take leaue with you in the phraze of the Apostle to Elymas the Magitian and what greater Magicke then for one to be enchaâ—ted to beleiue that Christ is a seâ—ucer O you full of all subtilty and mischeife the Sonns of the Deuill enemyes of all iustice who cease not to peruert the right wayes of our Lord Adieu OCHINVS You enioy Michaeas the liberty of your Tongue but â—age you well NEVSERVS Let him go I will nor take leaue with him such opprobrious speeches he vseth against vs. OCHINVS Now M. Doctour Michaeas is gonne And now we haue the more freedome of speech among our selfs without feare of being ouerheard I know that not only yonder black-mouthd Michaeas but your selfe also rest much disedisyed at our abâ—enunciation of Christianity But M. Doctour come to the point We see the Prophecyes of the old Testament which must euer remayne sacred permanent and 〈…〉 uiolable do shew that the Church of God in the dayes of the Messias must euer be visible knowne and conspicuous and must in all ages without any intermission enioye a publicke and externall administration of the Word and Sacraments And this is abundantly confessed not only by vs all in the front of this our disputation but by all learned men whosoeuer We now notwithstanding such necessity therof cannot but confesse that the accomplishment of the sayd Prophecyes hath not bene effected in the Church of Christ at leâ—st in the Protestant Church how then can the Church of Christ be that true Church of the Messias which is so gloriously deliueaâ—ed with the penalls of the Prophets Now what other resultancy can be out of the premises then that the Church of Christ as wanting the fulfilling of the former diuine Oracles is not the true Church of God and consequently that Christ is the true Messias Sauiour of the World except we will grant which I neuer will the Papists Church as hauing by relation of Michaeas the Prophecies performed in it to be the sole Church of God Therefore so farre as toucheth my selfe I do renounce my former Christian fayth and will embrace the auncient Law of Moyses and as intending to be seruiceable to that Religion I will teach the doctrine of Circumcision and will instantly write a booke of the lawfulnes of Polygamie or plurality of Wyues aunciently practized by the â—ewes in the old Testament though now by Christians houlden as vnlawfull and altogether proâ—â—ibited NEVSERVS By the Lord of Heauen I cannot see how this difficulty can otherwyse be salued then either by denyinge the Gospell of the New Testament or by granting the Church of Rome to be the true Church which my Soule abhorrs to do For as concerning the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church It cannot be made good notwistanding our great ventitation thereof afore in our Words And therefore it were honesty in vs now in the end to pull of our Visards through which wee spooke to Michaeas and plainly confese the truth herein And here M. D. to take a short view of all the discours passed and to examine it impartially a monge our selfs We cannot but obserue that the Exemples produced by you were most insufficient first because they were no Protestants at all Secondly in that admitting them for Protestants they but only serue as Michaeas well noted to iustify the Visibility of Protestants only for those tymes neither you nor wee being able to produce but only for for me sake any one confessed Example of Protestancy for the space of six hundred yeers at the least Againe when Ochinus and my selfe perceaued that no true instances of Protestancy could be giuen I grant we vsed diuers euasions and inflexious to and froe and all for the sauing of our Churches honour As first to pretend though God knowes a silly pretence that all Relations and testimonyes of Protestants in former ages were by the Popes industry and tyranny vtterly extinct That fayling then we made show for in our priuat iudgments we could not really thinke it That the Protestants in former tymes were forced to lye secret and latent in regard of the supposed then raging Persecution That playne answere not seruinge then we thought good to inuolue and roule our said euasion touchinge Persecution in a certaine obscure and darke sentence to wit That the Church was in the Papacy the Papacy in the Church and yet the Church was not the Papacy a forme of words as Michâ—as truly â—â—id forged by vs Protestants only to cast a â—yst in the eyes of the vnlearned The next we fled for our surest but indeed sham full refuge vnto the Scripture pretending our Church to be consonant to it and therefore euer visible a cours which indifferently lyeth open to euery Heretyke After all which if you remember M. D. your selfe did politikly touch vpoÌ„ that opinion though not with any greate approbation of it which for sauing our Church from it vtter ruine teacheth that the Papists Church and Ours are all one But did you marke how Michaeas neuer ceased till he had ferretted vs out of all our former Connyhoales be in the end irrephably and choakingly prouing from our owne learned Mens penns the mayne question now controuerted among vs Now M. D. seeing I am irrefragably resolued not to admit the Papists Church for the true Church though perhapps it hath enioyed the fulfilling of the forementioned Prophecyes I do therefore conspyre in iudgment herein with Ochinus and ame determined to haue this Country from whence I will retyre myselfe into the Palatinate where
this Authours fraud and imposturous cariadge who tearmeth all such Articles wherein S. Bernard did agree with vs as the Sacrifice of the Masse Purgatory merit of Works free will praying to saincts and indeed all other Catholicke Articles whatsoeuer only his boldnes of wryting to Pope Eugenius excepted to whom afore he had bene Mayster and therevpon presumed to wryte more freely Slips Lapses as they were beleiued by him which in vs Catholicks he exagerateth by the name of Superstition Idolatry c. And thus we may see how one and the same Cause being exemplified in different Persons is by this Pamphleters deceate diuersly censured Leaning S. Bernard the Authour generally but with out any prouf at all wisheth his Reader to thinke that the Protestant Church was in all Countries in Christendome and did lie hid as those Iewes did in the tyme of Elias for feare of Persecution But this he only saith but proueth not and it is therefore reiected with the same facilitie with which it was spoken Now touching those Men who conceales their fayth for feare of persecution I refer the Reader to the former dialogue wherein the weaknes of this pretext of Persecution is particularly displayed That done the Pamphleter sayth that India Armenia Asia the lâ—ssar and Egypt had in former tymes Christians in them for he giueth them no other name then Christians And then he inferrs without any proofe at all or instances in the points of their Religion that they were Protestants Poore man that thus most insensibly reasoneth Seing we find the Christians of all those Countreyes to agree in all the cheife points with the present Roman Churrch Only some of them do not acknowledge the primacy of the Bishop of Rome aboue all other Bishopps In the last place of all he much insisteth in the Greeke Church within which are included the Russes and Muscouits he thus saying thereof The Greeke Church was neuer so much as in show extinguished And from whome the Russians and Muscouâ—ts had their fayth And then a little after he thus enlargeth himselfe We should do wrong to Almighty God c. to pull from him so many ample Churches meaning the Greeke Church the others aboue specifyed inferring from thence that the Protestant Church did in former ages rest visible euen in the Greeke Church Now this his shamelesse alleadging of the Greeke Church for Protestants shal be confronted with the testimony of Syr Edwin Sands a man of his owne Religion who plainly affirmeth that the Greeke Church doth concurre with Rome in opinion of Transubstantiation generally in the sacrifice and whole Body of the Masse in praying to Saints in auâ—â—cular Confession in offering Sacrifice and prayer for the dead Purgatory worshipping of pictures Yea the Protestant Deuines of Magdeburg do record that the Greeke Church doth not only beleiue all the former Articles recited by Syr Edwin Sands but also that it beleiueth and teacheth the signifying Ceremonyes of the Masse Confirmation with Crisme Extreme Vâ—ction all the seauen Sacraments Almes for the dead freewill Monachisme vowes of Chastity the fast of Lent and other prescribed fasts that Priests may not mary after Orders taken and finally that the tradition doctrine of the Fathers is to be kept Now heere I refeâ—re to any one not blinded with preiudice whether the professours of the Greeke Church are to be accounted for Catholicks or Protestants And from hence we may discâ—uer the idle and ridiculous vaunting of this Pamphleter who in the close of this point touching the Greeke Churches being protestant and a continuall Visâ—â—iliâ—y of Protestancy in the said Churches thus insulteth Looke to these places you Papists and Imagine that if there had beene none but these yet the words of the Scripture which in generality speake of a spouse had beene true And Christ had there had his Body vpon earth and the Church had not beene vtterly extinguished if neither We nor the Synagoâ—ue of Rome had beene extant Thus he His former examples being ended he entertayneth his Reader with great store of frothy and needlesse matter touching former differences betweene the Popes and Emperours the Kings of England and France And then all such persons as did bandy themselues either by wryting or otherwise with the said Emperour or Kings agaynst the Popes of those tymes the Pamphleter vrgeth for Protestants though the cheife cause of such differences betweene the Popes and the sayd Princes was touching Distribution of Ecclesiasticall Liuings within their owne Realmes That done the Treatiser extraâ—agantly discourseth in his deâ—lamatory rayling veyne that the Pope is Antichrist But how rouing and wandring all this is to the title of his Pamphlet and prouing of his owne Churches visibility the which he obliged himselfe to performe may appeare by what is already set downe After all this for a Close of all he obiecteth for forme-sake as if his taking notize of what we can truly obiect against his wryting were a sufficient answere to it certaine exceptions vrged by the Catholicks agaynst his former Instances of protestancy Which Obiections of ours being set downe he shapeth no true Answere vnto them And first he thus obiecteth in our behalfe l The Papists will beginne and say that we rake together as the Auncestours and forerunners of our fayth such as were notorious Hereticks as Wicklefe Hus or the Waldenses c. To which after much securtility of words he finally thus answereth We do not beleiue that all those are Hereticks whom you Papists will so call or account But we reply hereto and say That not only the Catholicks but the Protestants themselues do particularly charge Wicklefe Hus the Waldenses as also Almaricus Peter Bruus c. with many grosse and absurd Heresyes acknowledged for such euen by our Aduersaryes as may abundantly appeare by recurring to the seuerall passages of this former Dialogue The defence of which heresyes doth necessarily make their defendours absolute Heroticks seing they were mantayned by Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. with a froward and open contempt of the authority of Gods Church publikly teaching the contrary far differently from S. Austin S. Cyprtan and Lactantius their beleiuing certayne errours the which this Pamphleter for the more lesning of the Heresyes of Waldo Wicklefe Hus c. in p. 112. suttely repeateth seing these Fathers taught them only as their owne probable opinions euer submitting with all Obedience their Iudgments therein to the supreme Iudgments of Christ his Church Ad hereto that seing those Books written by Catholicks of those tymes do indifferently charge Wicklefe Hus Waldo and their followers with mantayning of some one point or other of protestancy and with diuers absurd Heresyes The authority therefore of those Writers are eyther equally to be beleiued in all their accusations or equally to be reiected in them all And the rather seing they could not foretell a consideration much to be obserued or presage what
power of Magistrats doth arme the subiects against their France in these cases c. And further Beza m roundly teacheth what reason haue Christians to obey hym that is Satans slâ—ue And yet speaking more of that Booke of Beza he saith a booke which ouerthroweth in effect all authority of Christian Magistrats To contract this poynt touchinge Beza Beza hymselfe thus wryteth in one of his Epistles to a friend of his Pâ—rplaceâ— mihi c. It pleaseth me very much that you wryte that priuate Conuents and assemblyes are to be made without the authority of Princes And againe in the said epistle Si pijs semper expectandum putas dum lupi vltro cedant c. Yf you thinke we must stay the delayes of godly men till the woulâ—es do freely depart or are driuen away by publyke authority I cannot yeald to your iudgment therein c. And if we had made such delayes What Churches should wee haue had at this day Thus far of the doctrines of Caluin and Beza in this poynt concerning both which in generall I will set downe the iudgment of therfore named D. Bancroft passed vpon them both who thus wryteth He that shall reede M. Caluins and M. Bezaes two bookes of Epistles c. Would certainly meruayle to vnderstand into what actions and dealings they put themselfs of war of peace of subiection of reformation without staying for the Magistrate Thus he Next we will come to kâ—ox who thus teacheth Reformation of Religion belorgeth to the Communalty God hath appoynted the Nobility to bridle the inordinate appetits of Princes Princes for iust cause may be deposed Finally Knox further auoucheth in these words Yf Princes be tyraâ—ts against God and his Truth their Subiects are freed from the oath of obedyence Of all which passages of Knoâ—see D. Bancroft in his booke of dangerous Positions Neither his Collegue Bucanan is lese sparing herein for thus he teacheth The People haue right to bestow the Crowne at their pleasure And yet with â—at more debasing spyte he thus egurgiâ—ates his veâ—ome It were good that rewards were appointed by the People for such 〈◊〉 should kill Tyrants as commonly there is for those which haue killed vulues Finally Bucanan affirmeth that People may arraigne their Prince Now in regard of these impious positions of Knox and Bucanan I fully approue and allow the graue sentence of the Bishop of Rochester who in his Sermon at Pooles Church termeth these two men The two fiery spirits of the Church and Nation of Scotland VICE-CHANCELOVR Michaeas Notwithstanding what you heere haue alleged touching strangers yet no part thereof conceâ—neth the Church of England or it Members Our Church remayning most incontaminate fâ—ee and spotles from the lâ—ast tuch of disloyalty And therefore what is by you as yet hearesaid concerneth vs litle you only discouering your Ignorance in misapplying other mens doctrines to vs who wholy disclayme from the same MICHAEAS M. Vice-Chancelour Pardon me if I heere do say you charge my Ignorance with greater Ignorance For first are not your Protestants of England of the same fayth and Religion with Luther Swâ—nglius Caluin Beza and the others aboue mentioned If you be not then haue you erected a new Protestant Church of late different from all Protestant Churches afore in Being If you be of the same fayth must you not then confesse that your Religion teacheth disobedience and disloyalty to your Prince Secondly it is ouer manifest that the Church of England I speake of some members thereof only not of all doth stand most chargeable with the same crime In proofe of which point I will produce the testimony of your former Archbishop of Canterbury D. Bancroft who in one of his Books thus confesseth of English Ministers concerning this point saying I omit their desperate courses of deposing Princes and putting them to death in diuers cases of resistance against reformation The generall summe was this That if the soueraigne Magistrate refuse to admit it the Ministers the inferiour Magistrate the People c. might set it oâ— fooâ—e themselues Of these and such like arguments diuers bookes he meaning made by English protestants were allowed by the Ministers of Geneua to be there then printed in English and to be published in England c. And againe the said Archbishop in an other of his Books speaking of the seditious English Protestants in Queene Maryes tyme thus writeth Goodman Whitingam Gilby the authour of the booke of Obedience with the rest of the Geneua Complices in Queene Maryes dayes urged all states by degrees rather to take armes and to reforme Religion themselues then to suffer such Idolatry Superstition remayne in the Land But to descend more particularly to this Goodman He was a forward Protestanâ— in Queene Maryes tyme did write a booke of this very subiect as D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe affirme Thus hereof he wryteth as D. Bancroft alleadgeth his sentences If Magistrats transgresse Gods Lawes and commanâ— others to do the like then haue they loâ—â— honour and obedience and ought no more to be taken for Magistrats but to be examined accused condemned c. And more It is not sufficient for subiects not to obâ—y the wicked Commandements of their wicked Princes but to withstand them also And yet more plainly Euill Princes ought by the lawes of God to be deposed To abbreuate this vnpleasing subiect there was also in the said times an other Booke made against the authority of Princes and entituled Of Obedience Which booke is much disliked by D. Bancroft and D. Succliffe in which booke we thus read Kings haue their authority from the People and by occasion the People may take it away agayne And more By the word of God in a manifest defection meaning of fayth and Religion a priuate Man hauing some speciall inward motion may kill a tyrant Marke you not how he doth Rauiliac it And finally It is lawfull to kill wicked Kings and Tyrants But I will wade no further in this argument For I much feare that the afore vnheard and now vnexpected recitall of the former Protestants doctrines is most displeasing to the eares of this honorable Iudge Only I must note that among the aboue mentioned Protestants some do speake with more respect and honour of Princes others with aâ—â— contempt and disgrace yet all of them alledged do with one the same eye or countenance indifferently looke vpon this principle to wit That Princes in some cases may be deposed such a dispacity we find in this their generally acknowledged Conclusion So in the pourtrayture of diuers mens faces we obserue great disproportion in one and the same proportion LORD-CHEIFE IVSTICE Michaeas I must confesse that these Doctrines of the former learned Protestants touching the deposing of Princes are most strange and indeede distastfull vnto me But it well may be that
amazement to see in a most noble Country where the Ghospell which forbiddeth all Rapine is presumed to be truly preached that men free not borne Bondslaues should thus in body and state only for feare of offending God and desire of sauing their soules lye prostrate to the depradations robberyes of certaine hungery Refuse and Outcasts of men who make show at least though wrongfully to warrant all these their pillages by force of the statute Law though otherwise prohibited by all Diuine and humane Law Si est dolor sicut dolor horum And if it fortune that any Priest be taken or Recusants do appeare then is the Pryest assured and the Catholicks in danger to be committed to a darke and loathsome prison there to remayne the Priest sometymes in fettars so long as it shall please the subordinate Magistrate His Maiesty who is most proue to mercy pitty and commiseration being wholy ignorant of such outrages and proceedings But My Lord. How base so euer the Priests Catholicks of England seeme to be in the eyes of their Aduersaryes yet no doubt their state is most gratefull through this their imprisonment in the sight of God and honorable in the iudgment of all foraine Catholicke nations who in regard of the others endurance may iustly apply to the said imprisoned Priests Catholicks that sentence of a most auncient Father Carcer habet tenebras sed lumen estis ipsi habet vincula sed vos soluti Deo estis triste illic expirat sed vos odor estis suauitatis LORD CHEIFE-IVSTICE Theese exorbitancyes of proceedings Michaeas whereof you speake if any such be the Law chastizeth and the Offendours are punishable neither doth the supreme Magistrat geue allowance of them Yet heare Michaeas you are to remember that though wrong be not to be recompensed with wrong and Cruelty with Iniustice The tymes haue bene I meane in the reigne of Queene Marie When the Professours of our Religion did not only suffer losse of Goods but euen death itselfe And therefore there appeareth lesse reason why you Romanists should so tragically complayne at your present afflictions Since in so doing you are lyke to those Men who perpeâ—rate impietyes yet expostulate of Wrong MICHAEAS Indeede my Lord I grant that this is the vulgar recrimination often vrged and reinforced by the Protestants for the more depressing of our pressures in the eye of others yet though I will not vndertake the defence of all the procedures of those tymes myselfe being a stranger both to the Nation and to the affayres of those dayes Neuerthelesse let it not be offensiue vnto you my honerable Lord if I vnfould the reason why such actions in that Queens tyme may stand lesse subiect to the censure of an iniustifiable punishment then theese in the dayes of Queene Elizabeth and since The reason is this In Q. Marâ—es tyme the Professours of any Religion different from the Catholicke and Roman Religion were punished by certaine Canon and Imperiall Lawes made by most auncient Popes Emperours they not then hauing any forknowledg that Protestancy should rather sway in these dayes then any other erroneous fayth And this they did in regard that all such different Religions were reputed and â—oulden as Innouations and most repugnant to the auncient Catholicke fayth Now that ProtestaÌ„cy was to be accounted in Queenes Maryes reigne a mere Innouation in faith as well as any other sect appeareth euen from the free acknowledgment of the learned Protestants who teach expressly that for theese foureteene or fyfteene hundred yeeres the ProtestaÌ„t fayth was neuer so much as heard or thought of till Luthers dayes I will heare content myselfe for greater breuity with the authorityes of two or three Protestants Do we not then find M. Parkins thus to coÌ„fesse hereof For many hundred yeres our Church was not visible to the World an vniuersal Apostasy ouer spreading the whole face of the Earth And doth not Sebastianus Francus the Protestant confesse the same in theese words For certaine the externall Church togeather with the Sacramenti vanished away presently after the Apostles departure and that for theese foureteene hundred yeres the Church hath not beene externall and Visible In lyke sort D. Fulke speaking of the Protestant Church doth he not thus wryte The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles tymes A verity confessed by Luther hymselfe thus vaunting of his owne supposed true faith Christum anobis primo vulgaâ—um audemus gloriari We dare boast that Christ was first preached by vs. Thus then we see that Protestancy was punished in Q. Maryes reigne as an Innouation in fayth and religion neuer afore that tyme dreamed of But now the case is farre otherwise touching the afflictions layed vpon the Catholicks for professing of their fayth since they are punished by certaine Parlamental statuts only decreed not past some threescore yeres since by the authority of a Woman Prince against a religion which by the learned Aduersaries lyke acknowledgment hath possessed all Christendome theese many hundred yeres and indeed so many hundred yeres as the Protestant Church is confessed by them to haue bene latent and inuisible And therefore those statâ—â—s were decreed not against the Catholicke Religion as against an Innouation but as against the till then only and sole Religion professed by all the Christiaâ—s through out the whole world To this end we find M. Napper a learned Protestant thus acknowledging Betweene the yeres of Christ 300. and 316. the Antichristian Papisticall reigne began reigning vniuersally without any debatible contradiction one thousand two hundred sixty yeres And as conspiring with the former Protestant herein the Centurists do euen from the tymes of Constantyne charge both hym and euery age and Century since till Luthers dayes with the Profession of our present Roman Religion Thus now your Lordship may clearly discouer the greate disparity betwene the proceedings of Queene Mary and Q. Elizabeth Since in the former Queens tyme the Lawes wheareby Sectaries were punished for their Religion were instituted many hundred yeres since In this later Q. raigne the Statuts were first made at the beginning of her comming to the Crowne which is yet in the memory of eich Man being but of reasonable greate yeres Those lawes were enacted by Popes and generall â—ouncells to whose charge and incumbency the burden of Religion is peculiarly by God committed secunded otherwise by the secular authority of Emperours and particularly of 〈◊〉 Valentinian and Marcian Theese were first inuented by a Woman and a Parlament of Lay Persons the incompetent iudges of fayth and Religion Breifly by the former Decrees a Religion confessed by the cheife Professours of it to be neuer heard of at lest for foureteene hundred yeres together and thearefore to be an innouation of fayth which is held by Catholicks to be a destruction of fayth necessary to Soules health is interdicted and prohibited By theese later