Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	church_n	true_a	visible_a	7,129	5	9.3865	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14657	The svmme of a dispvtation betweene Mr. VValker, pastor of St. Iohn Euanglists [sic] in Watling-street London, and a popish priest calling himselfe Mr. Smith, but indeed Norrice assisted by other priests and papists : held in the presence of some worthy knights, with other gentlemen of both religions.	Walker, George, 1581?-1651.; S. N. (Sylvester Norris), 1572-1630.	1624 (1624)	STC 24960.5; ESTC S2955	22,486	46

you our King will marry his Son and aske the Pope no leaue if the other party will aduenture it as well as he It is most intollerable that you should so boldly slaunder his Maiestie Secondly for the tearmes of my questions which you call vnmannerly they are the same which it pleaseth Gods spirit to vse in the holy Scriptures and his holinesse hath in his wisedome been pleased to stile the Pope and Church of Rome by the same titles as I shall quickly proue if you will vndertake to answer me And therefore you are too bold to taxe Gods spirit of vnmannerlinesse But perhaps this is a shift of yours to put off our disputation vpon these poynts which pay you home with a cleanely excuse of vnmannerly tearmes yet it shall not serue your turne for the more vnseemly that the questions are the more disgrace it will be to me and the more hard taske to proue them and to you it will be more credit and ease to defend the contrary so that this is no excuse for you at all Thirdly in that you doe charge vs here at home so manifestly contrary to common sense that we haue neither Church nor Faith when as we beleeue and professe all holy truthes taught in the holy Scriptures which by your selues cannot be denyed to be Gods infallible word But I pray you let vs leaue all loose and idle discourses and come to a strict forme of Disputation writing downe the Arguments and answers which doe passe betweene vs. Your taske which you haue vndertaken is to proue that we haue no Church nor Faith let vs heare your arguments briefly Mr. Smith Well that we may come quickly and closely come home to the matter let me aske you a question and doe you answer me that I may ground my Arguments vpon your owne words and I shall quickly proue against you my assertion and make the truth of it plainely appeare First I aske whether the true Catholike Church be visible M. Walker The true Catholike Church is not visible neither can it be seene with eyes of any mortall man on earth M. Smith Marke Gentlemen he will deny this Canon he saith the Catholike Church is not visible which I will proue to be against all reason Mr. Walker Indeed if I should say that it were visible considering it as it now is I should speake against all reason For the greatest part of it being Saints in heauen are without the reach of mans eyes and cannot be seene Mr. Smith You doe but equiuocate of purpose to decline all Disputation you know that I meane not the Church triumphant in heauen but the Catholike Church militant on earth Mr. Walker Nay rather doe you equiuocate or worse for to say that the Catholike Church is militant on earth is as absurd as to say that all mankinde euen the whole vniuersall race of Adam are now liuing on earth when reason and experience teach vs that the greatest part are dead and many also yet vnborne I hope you know that the word Catholike signifies vniuersall and therefore the Catholike Church is vniuersall company of the Elect and faithfull and includes in it euery one whosoeuer hath beene or is or shall be hereafter a true beleeuing member of Christ and a●l they cannot bee seene at once on earth because they neuer were altogether on earth The militant number of them on earth are the least part of them Mr. Smith You doe wrangle to auoyde D●sputation I therefore tell you that by the Catholi●e militant Church I vnderstand the true Church of Iesus Christ which all true Christians here on earth ought to heare and obey as it is the pillar and ground of tru●h now answer whether you hold that to be visible or inuisible M. Walker I iudge of your meaning by your words and therefore I cannot conceiue this Church which you doe speake of to be the Catholike that is the vniuersall Church for euery true particular Church in which euery true Christian doth loue and whereof he is a member is that which he ought to heare and to obey because by reason of the faithfull and elect which are in it it is the house of God and the pillar and firmament of truth Now euery such Church is partly visible and partly inuisible M. Smith How is it visible and how is it inuisible Mr. Walker Euery such true Church hath in it elect and faithfull men professing outwardly in word and practise true Christian religion who doe belong to the Catholike Church and are true liuely members of Christ It hath also some hypocrites and carnall professors which doe also make an outward show and profession of christianity but are not truely ingraffed into Christ by vnion and communion of the Spirit neither haue the true holy sauing Faith and by consequent are not members of the true Catholike Church Now the men who professe religion in the Church and are the members of it if we consider them as they are men and as they practise and performe outward duties of christians as preaching and hearing of the word administring and receiuing the Sacraments publike outward worship and such like they are visible But as for the election faith spirituall and in word graces and deuotion in the one sort by which they are indeed true christians belong to the Catholike Church and the hipocrisie and carnall corruption lurking inwardly in the other sort by meanes whereof they are seperated from communion with Christ in spirit they are things inuisible and to be discerned spiritually not with bodily eyes Thus euery true Church is partly inuisible to wit in respect of the spirituall graces which make men true Christians indeed and partly visible to wit in respect of the outward profession common both to elect and reprobates to faithfull men and hypocrites Mr. Smith No sooner was the answer giuen but Mr. Smith as one full of anger protested with vehemency of words that now he saw indeed there was neither Church nor Faith among Protestants they were all so contrary among themselues neuer agreeing together in any opinion He affirmed to the standers by that Doctor Whitakers Doctor Reignolds Mr. Perkins and many other chiefe Protestants did euer grant that the true Catholike Church was visible Another Priest sitting by scornefully repeated the name of Perkins and spake of him as of a poore silly man not worthy to be counted among the learned Mr. Walker Mr Walker moued with the falshood of the one and the scorne of the other first answered the scorner that none could count Mr. Perkins silly and vnlearned but either out of ignorance or wilfull mallice and that he knew it to be the fashion of popish Priests outwardly to sleight vilifie before the people such as do most cut and gall them To Mr. Smith he answered that if he would grant that Protestants haue a true Church and the true faith as truely as that which he affirmed of Doctor Whitakers and the rest was false

THE SVMME OF A DISPVTATION BETWEENE Mr. VVALKER Pastor of St. Iohn Euanglists in Watling-street London and a popish Priest calling himselfe Mr. Smith but indeed Norrice assisted by other Priests and Papists HELD IN THE PRESENCE OF some worthy Knights with other Gentlemen of both Religions Printed 1624. The summe of a Disputation bebetweene Mr. Walker Pastor of St Iohn Euangelists in Watling street in London And a popish Priest calling himselfe Mr. Smith but indeed Norrice assisted by other Priests and Papists May last 1623. held in the presence of some worthy Knights with other Gentlemen of both Religions The occasion of the Disputation SIr William Harington Knight hauing a Kinsman of the Romish Catholike Religion by much reasoning with him and many perswasions had brought him to wauering so that he stood in doubt which was the true religion and desired to be satisfied The forenamed Priest Mr. Smith alias Dr. Norrice for the setling and hardening of him in the popish religion told him that the Protestant Church of England vnto which he seemed to incline had no faith neither indeed was it any Church of Christ at all and also challenged his kinsman Sir William Harrington to bring any Minister of the English Church whatsoeuer into any conuenient place of meeting and he would by disputation and by inuincible arguments proue against him before their faces and in their hearing that English Protestants had neither Church nor faith Sir William Harrington did take his offer vpon condition that he would answer to such questions as the Diuine which he would bring should propound against the Romish religion it was agreed the day and place appoynted Whereupon Sir William requesting a reuerend Doctor of his acquaintance to take the charge vpon him hee being to preach in his charge vpon a necessary occasion the very day which was appointed sent him to Mr. Walker whom he assured him to be a man ready for such a purpose And who at the first motion vpon a dayes warning embraced the offer promised to come the next day to Sir William and to attend him to the place of meeting And Sir William requesting him to name before hand some questions opposite to the Romish religion which hee would dispute vpon against the Priests he gaue him these three following 1. That the present Church of Rome is the Whore of Babylon 2. That the Pope is Antichrist 3. That the Popish doctrine of Peters being Bishop of Rome is a forged fable contrary to the Scriptures These positions Sir William Harrington sent to the Priest that he might arme himselfe for the defence The next day Mr. Walker came to Sir Williams lodgings to dinner and accompanied him and Sir Edward Harwood with some other Gentlemen to a priuate house by the Thames side where they found some Romish Catholike Gentlemen and they said Smith with other Priests Before they entred into disputation Mr. Smith alias Norrice called Master Walker a side and desired that the disputation might be performed louingly and sweetly with all mildenesse and without bitter words or byting speeches Mr. Walker answered that he desired to byte and gall no aduersary but with sound reasons which do most commonly cut to the quicke such as defend errors as for other speeches he promised for his part to be milde or sharpe according to the behauiour of his Aduersaries And thus they proceed to a formall manner of disputation the one sitting downe at the one end of a Table the other at the other end and the auditors sitting along on both sides and some standing about in a large vpper Parlor But first Mr. Walker desired a Bible vnto which they might appeale and by which testimonies of Scriptures which both parties alleaged might bee tried whereupon there were two Bibles brought and agreed vpon the one a vulgar Latine which the Counsell of Trent and the whole Romish Church holds to be most authenticall the other an English Bible for the standers by to looke vpon Then Mr. Smith alias Norrice begins first with an apologie for himselfe telling the gentlemen that he had of late by reason of some bodily infirmity beene forced to take Phisicke and to vse a dyet drinke and therefore if his memory should faile or if paine in his head should force him to breake off abruptly desired them to beare with him and to haue him excused By which he seemed wisely to prouide before hand for a lesse shamefull flight if he found the fight too hot and sharpe for him to be endured Mr. Walker on the other side desired that they might goe to it hand to hand and but one speake at once for auoiding of confusion that the disputation might be in short syllogismes and desired also that the Arguments the answers might be writ downe for preuenting all false relation and misreports afterward and withall did put it to the Aduersaries choyce whether he would oppose or answer first Mr. Smith desired that hee might first dispute vpon his owne questions and promised that afterwards he would answer Mr. Walker disputing vpon his questions It was agreed vpon And thereupon he putting off his hat and crossing his face and breast began to speake to Mr. Walker as followeth Mr. Smith alias Norrice Sir I haue here receiued three questions from you which you haue taken vpon you to proue by Argument I haue here written downe and will relate them vnto you First you say you will proue the Pope to be Antichrist 2. The Church of Rome to be the whore of Babylon 3. That St. Peter was not Bishop of Rome as we hold These questions are such as are not fit to be named much lesse to be disputed or answered they are deliuered in tearmes very vnseemely and vnmannerly for what can be more vnfit or vnseemly then this that you should call the holy Father the Pope Antichrist and the Church of Rome the whore of Babylon now in these dayes when it pleaseth the Kings Maiestie to giue the Pope that honour as to send and sue to his holinesse for a dispensation for the marriage of thr Prince his sonne I pray you therefore let vs haue no more of these questions but let vs haue some other or else propound them in other tearmes as that the Church of Rome is not the true Church or the like As you see I haue done in that I haue vsed milder words in my questions holding that you protestants in England haue no Church nor faith Mr. Walker Seeing it is your pleasure thus to speake at large in loose speech and not in strict Syllogisme I will answer you in your kinde First I maruell that you are not ashamed to slaunder the Kings Maiestie with honouring of the Pope by suing to him for dispensation which we all know he will neuer doe because he hath not onely said that he is Antichrist but also publikely in his learned writings proued him so to be and the Romish Church to be the whore of Babylon I warrant