will shal bee founde flockes of goates and not of sheepe and foxes and wolues seeking the destruction of the sheepe rather then true sheepeheardes But you would make the Reader beleeue that Salomon in this place by you cyted out of the first of the Canticles doeth teach the true Church safelie alwaies to pitch her tentes and to feede by the visible and apparent succession of pastours which from age to age can leade her without leauing her by the waie euen to Christes time Which you saie yours can doe and ours cannot boldlie aduouching that vnlesse we be not ashamed to lie wee cannot shew where our Church or Religion was an hundreth yeares agoe and that wee cannot denie but Luther began to preach our new Gospell in the yeare 1517. And thus againe partlie by this note of visible succession of pastours and partly by vpbrayding vs with certaine differences of opinions amongst vs about the maner of Christes presence and diuerse and sundrie fantasticall heresies that of late daies haue sprung vp and beene reuiued you labour to iustifie your Synagogue of Rome and to condemne our Church of Christ which thinges you harpe vpon very much and often afterwarde in this your treatise Wherefore to aunswere you to all these thinges here once for all first I tell you you offer violence to Salomons wordes in making them to containe a prophesie of any such perpetuall and visible succession of flockes and pastours in the possession of one trueth as you inferre thereupon and make it the speciall marke and note to discerne Christes true Church from all that falsely bee so called For then it should bee contrarie to that view of the state of Christes true Church which I haue set downe vnto you and prooued by infallible arguments in the first Chapter which may not be seâ—ing the scripture alwaies agreeth with it selfe And yet the Church may haue good vse of Salomons aduise giuen her here in her greatest ruins and interruptions of her ordinarie and visible forme and beautie in looking to the visible flockes and sheepheardes that were before that God so chastised her as in Achaz time in looking to and following those that were in Dauids and Salomons timeâ— in Manasses and Ammons time in looking to and following those in Ezechiaths Iehosaphats times in the time of the captiuity in looking to following those that were in Iosiahs time And yet doe not so take me as though I thought that either Christes true Church or the true sheepheards thereof did at anie time vtterâ—â— cease or faile for I am perswaded they neuer did nor shall But this onelie is the thing that I now say that though this place of the Canticles doeth shewe that in no time there is any true flockâ— of Christ but there hath gone before a flocke and shepheardes which that may safely followe euen to the finding of Christ yet it proueth not that there hath alwaies immediately gone before it from time to time some visible so apparent flockes and shepheards one immediately succeeding another as that the names of the sheepe and shepheardes are alwaies famously knowen and therefore easily to be reckoned vp of euery one which are the thinges which you seeme to inferre hereof and therefore require of vs to bee done or else you would faine make the Reader beleeue that wee neither are the Church haue the trueth nor true right ministers thereof Wherein many waies you offer vs great wrong for after you your selfe distrusting belike that in any seate or line of Bishops without interruption this can be performed speaking of your line of Popes whereof all the sort of you bragge in this case most cap. 8. to vpholde and drawe along your right succession you tell vs flatly you meane not when you speak thereof onely of them but of al Bishops elswhere that they may continue it in the interruptions of that liue somewhere else and yet at our handes you require vnder the penalty aforesaied that we should froÌ„ age to age and from person to person orderly succeeding one another deduce ours For when we say it was continued alwaies by some in some other places when wee can no longer finde it in your Romish see whereinto by little and little you haue craftily â—rept and wherein for many hundred yeares before men of our Church and Religion sate and taught you reiect that our answere as a shift Another wrong that you offer vs herein is this that your Antichristian Synagogue hauing according to the prophesie Reuel 12. persecuted our flocke into the wildernes with the sheepherdes thereof you require that wee should euen in respect of such decaied distressed times of the church giue you as euident demonstration of our flockes and sheepheardes as may bee giuen thereof in the florishing and peaceable state of the same For there is no reason in requiring that in the decaies and ruines of the Church which accompanieth alwaies the Church in her prosperous and standing estate Besides herein you offer vs the greater wrong in that notwithstanding it be graunted of vs that both perpetuall continuance of the Catholique faith and also some kinde of succession therefore of teachers be necessary alwaies for the continuation of the Church yet you cannot but knowe especially seing that prophesie before named that also 2. Thes 2. must bee fulfilled of the church of Christ in respect of some time of her soiourning here on earth that thereupon it followeth not that therefore their succession is visible and demonstrable alwaies in your sence or else wee must yeelde that there were none such For who is so simple but hee is resolued that all men now aliue come by lineall succession from some of Adams children and yet fewe or none can bee found that can rightlie no not the skilfullest harrold of them all deduce their pedagree from thence Must it therefore followe that there hath not alwaies beene for all that a certaine lineall descent if you should thus inferre euery one might laugh at your follie For long processe of time distance of place betwixt some of our progenitours and vs lacke of Cronicles or the neglect of such genealogyes in them alterations of names and countries and diuerse such like things maketh the one not onely hard but for the most part impossible and yet no man doubteth of the certainty of the other Euen so in this our present question most certaine it is there haue alwaies beene both flockes sheepherdes to continue both the trueth Christes church For that wee graunt is necessarie but yet through continuance of time force of your Antichristian persecution distance perhaps of the flockes and sheepeheards in place from vs that God in some ages vnder your tyranny hath vsed to continue his church by and lacke of faithfull and carefull writers to cronicle such matters especially your wouluish and foxy sheepheardes beeing alwaies watchfull and mindefull to their vttermost either to blot out their memories quite in not
the bare and running with the hounde getteth a man frendes but he that will laye flattery aside tell the plaine truth shal get nothing but hatred Thus in these daies vice is extolled vertue contemned Ill rule is made â—f and good rule neglected O heart dissembled which vnder coulour to be iust true canst cloke vnto vs hipocrisie for deuotion ambition for gentlenesse couetousnes for â—oÌ„petencie cruelty for zeale bolde babling without learning for eloqueÌ„ce florishing Rhetoricke without fruit or reasoÌ„ folly for grauity wilines without wit and fleshly wanton libertie for liberty of the Gospell This is nothing els but the deuils drifte alway couering his poison vnder some taste of suger Fallit enim vitium specie virtutis vmbra g This inuectiue speech we may iustly vse of you and your side For the summe ende of all their false doctrine is nothing els but malice with murther to the ouerthrowe of Christes Religion and the true ministers thereof This is their sheepes clothing for an vnhappy reformation Nam impia sub dulci melle venena latent Vnder sweete honny is deadly venome hid O blinde ignorance and ignorant blindnes O cruell and damnable mischiefe comming from the bottomeles pit of hel O intollerable furiousnes and heresie more detestable then it mate any longer be suffered The greate dâ—spleasure the extreame vengaunce the cruell plagues of God hange ouer our heades if this horrible heresie be not shortly remoued froÌ„ mens mindes O h These wordes iustly we maie breake out into in respect of the infinite blasphemies and abominations held and maintained by your side in this point good god how long wilt thou suffer this intollerable abhomination It shameth me it abhorreth me to thinke that these shameles beastes are not ashamed to speake of the most blessed Sacramentes of Christes Church who is able to expresse either by tongue or penne their wicked abhomination whye haue we a pleasure to forsake the true vnderstanding of Gods most sacred worde and become followers and bondslaues of the deuils counterfaite and deceitfull expositions carnall reasons set out by his ministers who in Religion are i This obiection of the diuersitie of opinions see answered at large Cap. 4. so deuided that now they dreame one thing and now another this day they like tomorowe they mislike one is against another of them euen in the highest misterie of Christ his Religion And no meruaile for the deuill is their chiefe head whom they serue and he is full of lies variaunce diuision and discorde vnder him their Schoolemasters were Hus Luther Zuinglius Oecolampadius Bucer Melancthon and the Archheretike Caluin k Therein there is no proofe that he helde any one heresy whose heresies are confuted in the Discourse hereafter ensuing l This is vntrue These with the rest of that rable did neuer agree one with another in their doings there is no vnity no certainty at all and therefore such masters such schollers come of them And this diuision this vnconstancie of doctrine was a manifest token that they were not the children of our true mother the Catholike Church nor ministers of Christ but the children of the deuill and ministers of Antichrist yea very Antichrists m Which that you papists be is most certain the contrariâ—ty of your doctrine with the auncient catholic e Church considered which I haue noted cap. 17. 29 of my answer For whosoeuer saieth S. Augustine is gone from the vnitie of the Catholicke Church hee is become an Antichrist These Antichrists haue borne a great stroke now too long time in our Realme of England in whom is no constancy no stedfastnesse of religion and doctrine These are they that haue damnably deceiued you and haue with their damnable preachings intised you from Church to Church from an heauenly Church to a malignant Church from a louing mother n This is false to a flattering harlot from the condition of grace to the state of perdition o These words remaining we iustly say to and of you from truth to falshoode from faithfull beleeuing to carnall reasoning from sauing Christ to deceauing Antichrist But good Reader beware be not deceaued be not ashamed to arise that hast so shamefully fallen be not ashamed to come home to your mother the Church sith shee is not ashamed to receiue you Let not folly lose the thing that grace hath so preciouslie offered and purchased Let not wilfulnesse and blindnesse put out so great light as is now shewed vnto thee but embrace most humblie the doctrine of our mother the catholicke church so shall you sit in the lappe of so tender a mother which will cherish you into life euerlasting Choose the best whiles choise lieth in lot What were you ashamed of your preface that you put not your name to it Indeede it is so fonde and friuolous that you might well enough be ashamed to father it An answere to the preface set before Iohn de Albines booke entituled A notable discourse against heretickes c. BEfore I take in hande to say any thing to Iohn de Albine or his booke I must craue of thee gentle reader whosoeuer thou art these two things that thou wouldest first giue me leaue to answere the long tedious and bragging preface prefixed before his booke by the publisher thereof and that then also thou thy selfe wouldest vouchsafe before thou goest any further either to the considering what Albine hath obiected or I answered to take the paines to reade ouer this my answere to the saide preface And though it seeme vnto thee of an extraordinary length so somewhat discourages thee yet the length of his considered likewise I pray thee beare with me and vouchsafe the reading of it thorow before thou proceedest any further His preface thou seest is long but indeede so vaine and friuolous it is that though it seemeth the authour thereof was some bolde and impudent Iesuite or fugitiue of our owne country yet such care he had of his credit that for feare of losse thereof he hath not thought good to put his name vnto it The vanity and weakenesse thereof may euen sufficiently appeare by those marginall notes that I haue affixed vnto it so that if I troubled thee with no further answere vnto it I hope it neither could nor should much moue thee or any other to thinke any thing the better of their Church and religion then thou didst before yet because neither he nor any of his faction for want of a further particular aunswere vnto it shall take occasion to persuade theÌ„selues or other that there is further weight and matter in it then indeede there is I will vouchsafe some more paines about it First therefore this I would haue thee Christian Reader for the coÌ„mendation of the authors great skill to obserue that almost al of it is spent in prouing those things which are needles because we teach graunt defende theÌ„ to
councell testifieth of many authēticall exāples of such as maried after holy orders Moreouer in the daies of Iulian the apostata wee reade that Basilius a Priest of Ancyra and Eusichius a minister at the least of Cesarea of Cappadocia which had lately taken to wife a gentlewoman and was but then as a bridegrome both ended their liues in martirdome as writeth Zozomene lib. 5. cap. 10. and Balfamon long after vpon the 10. canon of the coūcell of Ancyra mentioneth a decree of Leo the Emperour whereby it was lawfull for thē within two yeares after they were ordered to mary And who can be perswaded that we reading of so many famous Bishoppes that were maried as namely of Demetrianus of Antioch of Spiridion in the councell of Nice of Gregory Nazianzen others and of infinite children of these Bishops of others of the ministry as we doe in all stories that they got none of these children after their ministry or that they left their wiues presently vpon their entring into their ministry especially seeing the stories that tels vs they were maried names vs their childrē mētioneth no such thing Howsoeuer it were with these it euidētly appeares in his 70. and 127. epistles that there was one Synesius an excellent learned mā Bishop of Ptolemais who was not only a maried mā and had children but that he begot children of his lawfull wife being and continuing still in the execution of his office And many more such examples might be remembred but these are sufficient to shew the impudency of their confident assertiō that there were neuer anie such and this which I haue faied I hope also is fully sufficiēt to shew not onely the vanity of his brag that made this preface that all is well with them and countenanced by fathers consent of regions c. but also to answere the demuande or obiection which I tooke vpon mee vpon that occasion to answere in this place concerning the beginning and proceeding of popery and how and by whom it was resisted For euen as I haue shewed they lacke all the countinance they brag of for those particular points that I haue here spoken of haue made it plaine that both their beginning and proceeding hath beene noted and withstoode euē so is it an easy matter to deale with them in all the rest of the points wherein they and wee differ as ere thou hast redde this my answere to Albine thorow I hope I shall make vnto thee full demonstration Wherefore thou maiest in the meane time hereby learne to arme thy selfe against such proud brags as notwithstanding thou hast hard the authour of this preface make For I hope euen by this whatsoeuer he hath saied to the contrary thou most plainely seest that neither scripture fathers consent of regions nor continuance of time can proue that they haue as he brags the true Gospell and the true sence of it the true Christiā Religiō the true Church spouse of Christ who haue in these maine principall points beene controled and condemned in all these as I haue shewed Whatsoeuer therefore he infers or buildes vpon this false principle or whatsoeuer after vpon the bare supposing the same to be true thou shalt reade Iohn de Albine railingly in his triumphant arrogant maner to speake in disgrace of vs our Church ministers or Religion I hope I say thou wilt esteeme of it as of vaine and foolish wordes of proud and yet malitious aduersaries Yet hauing thus answered in this sort his preface somewhat the better to prepare thee to iudge of Iohn de Albine and my answere vnto him giue mee leaue now to say somewhat concerning his booke and his maner of dealing therein Wherefore to proceede hauing perused and as throughly as I could considered of it gentle Reader I protest vnto thee vpon what occasion soeuer it hath got such credit amongst men of his owne consort that it hath not onely of them beene thought worthy to be published in English but also to be intituled A notable discourse against heresies I haue found it and so shall any indifferent Reader of this my answere vnto it not able at all to doe either good or harme but onely to such as are verie simple vnlearned and silly ignorant creatures For the principall questions in hand either alwaies he takes for graunted and so neuer goes about to proue them or subtlely suddainly seeming to haue vndertaken the proofe of them hee slippeth into another matter and therewith goeth on lustely as though he were busy about the point in controuersy when as indeede he hath left that quite and chosen to himselfe some other matter more easie for him to deale in either not at all in controuersy or howsoeuer to small purpose for the proofe of the thing intended And yet thus hee seemeth vnto himselfe and vnto his vnskilfull Reader to haue wonne the cause and to carrie all before him when indeede hee hath saied quite nothing to the purpose and hath busied himselfe onely about that which was needelesse which to the ende that thou maiest the better obserue thy selfe in the rest of his booke I will giue thee a tast of in the beginning thereof Vnderstand therefore that whereas his generall and principall scope is in his whole discourse to disgrace our ministry and the whole matter thereof our Religion that so hauing once perswaded his Reader that we haue neither lawfull ministers nor sound Religion hee might consequently boldely pronounce vs to bee heretiques and our whole Church schismaticall hereticall To effect this his purpose because hee soresawe that first it were necessarie that he should iustify their owne ministry and Religion before hee should so call ours into question first hee laboureth about that in the first eight Chapters then striueth about the other in the rest But marke now I beseech thee how he makes his entry into this so weighty and necessary a point Whereas indeede out of the fift to the Hebrewes wee obiect as hee confesseth that their calling to their Priesthoode Prelacies cannot be of God because their very offices themselues were neuer of Gods owne ordinance but onelie of mans owne deuising though to answere this obiection euery man might see and he himselfe saw as it appeares by his owne words ca. 1. that it was most necessary for him first to haue proued that their offices were of Gods institution and not of mans inuention onely like a cunning Sophister hee slippes from that promising after in some other place to proue it which yet though it stoode him in this his discourse neuer so much vpon he neuer so much as once remembreth or mentioneth againe And therefore thus onely supposing and taking this for graūted that their Priesthoode and Prelacies are of God which he knowes we will neuer graunt them hee takes vpon him to proue onely their comming thereunto to bee lawfull which he proues as slenderly also For to proue it hee onely saieth
polluted prophaned Vriah the priest ioyned with the king in the erection of a new altar in coÌ„mitting abhominatioÌ„ before the Lord though he were one that had his calling by the ordinary way of succession of priests froÌ„ AaroÌ„ Againe though Ezechiah succeeding Ahaz for his time did notably rid the Church of the abhominatioÌ„s wherw t his father had defiled it yet wheÌ„ he was dead his son Manasses his son Amon brought it to as il an estate as euer it was in so much that froÌ„ the beginning of Manasses raign vnto the 18 of Iosiahs the booke of the law of the Lord was lost which was wel nigh 80 years for theÌ„ it is noted that Hilkiâ—h the priest found it 2. King 22. In Manasses his time it is euideÌ„t Idolatry opeÌ„ly preuailed the whole Synagogue saue a few prophets their folowers erred If we proceed during the 70 years captiuity in Babylon what visible appareÌ„t shew of any successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors caÌ„ we finde the ioined togither in the exercise of Gods religioÌ„ Was not their teÌ„ple then destroied consequently did not the publick exercise of their religioÌ„ which for the most part was tied theruÌ„to cease as it was prophesied by Hosea Ca. 3. therfore lameÌ„ted by Ieremy Ca. 3. LaÌ„ WheÌ„ Christ our sauiour caÌ„e into the world surely then God had his Church For it is a most certaine article of our faith that since it begaÌ„ it hath neuer ceased nor neuer shal yet what visible succession of pastors and priests was there theÌ„ in possession of souÌ„o religioÌ„ Had not they as euideÌ„tly appeareth by the stories writeÌ„ by the EuaÌ„gelists that were in the visible personal succession corrupted the doctrine of the Messias both concerning his person and office so that they were the deadliest enemies that he had But you wil say perhaps that though these thinges were thus in the Church in the time of the olde Testament yet it may not be so in the Church now in the time of the new And why so Howsoeuer otherwise there be some differeÌ„ce betwixt the Church then and now in respect of the more cleare reuelation now then then of the doctrine of the Messias whereof that Heb. 8.6 is by soÌ„e vnderstood yet in this respect you shal neuer be able by the word writeÌ„ or any true story to proue any necessary difference vnles it be that God had tied then his promises to that peculier people his seruice in great part to their temple and that he had ordained amoÌ„gst them a priesthood to continue by natural succession so that the Church theÌ„ had more right to plead visible succession then now In the meane time thus much is gained by these stories of the Church in the time of the olde testament that this outward clearenes visible succession you talke of is not an inseparable note of the true Church for therby we haue seene it seperated ofteÌ„times from it And vnles men were peeuishly disposed to maintaine a manifest vntruth conuicted so to be both by Scripture and experieÌ„ce you would see grauÌ„t that it is as separable from the Church now since Christ For is it not plainely prophesied 2. Thess 2. that there should come a departing from the faith by the comming of Antichrist and that very great and effectual And least you should babishly foolishly as many of you doe vnderstand this of an Antichrist that towards the end of the world should come and raigne seduce men 3 yeares an halfe marke that here Paul telleth vs in his time that this mistery of iniquity did already worke which it did in that there were false Apostles there that taught men to seeke iustification partly by faith partly by the workes of the law as it appeareth by the Epistle to the GalathiaÌ„s weigh that he attributeth vnto him such things as could not be brought to passe in that space lastly consider that he teacheth that though he should be detected and fal into a consuÌ„ptioÌ„ by the Spirit of Gods mouth yet he should not be fully abolished before Christs second comming All which make it most euident that Paul here prophecieth of a longer lasting Antichristianity which should trouble the Church theÌ„ yours of 3 years an halfe continuaÌ„ce But least yet this notwitstaÌ„ding you should imagine that the fulfilling of this prophecy your faÌ„sie of perpetual clearnes vniuersality of the church may staÌ„d alwaies togither S. Iohn in his ReuelatioÌ„ describing as you al must coÌ„fesse the state of the Church seeth her in a vision by the great 7 headed DragoÌ„ driuen into the wildernes and there glad to be fed for a season Chap. 12. And he seeth the Babilonish harlot the true patterne of your Romish prelacy by which harlot he most notably setteth forth Antichrist his kingdome committing fornication not with a fewe but with the Kings and inhabitants of the earth not ruling or sitting ouer a few but as the Angel there expoundeth the waters whereon she was seene to sit people multitudes natioÌ„s toÌ„gues Apoc. 17 Al which laied togither doe plainly shew that after Christ there should grow such a defection froÌ„ the fayth in the world by the means of Antichrist that during the florishing of his kingdome the true Church and her pastours should be driuen into the wildernes and so for that time should haue in comparison of Antichrists followers small visibility and shew in the eies of the world Which we say and constantly are able to defend hath beene verified in the late florishing of your Romish Prelats Besides view the stories of the church the Cronicles of times and you shal be driuen to confesse that though the Church hath had alwaies her two witnesses Re. 11 to testifie to the trueth that they neuer could be extinguished quite by TyraÌ„ts yet she hath often beene driuen from carying any great shewe of visibility in the world For certaine marble pillers at Salmantike erected in the hill of S. Bartholomew doe witnes that Diocletian Iouius and Maximinianus Herculeus imagined when they caused them to bee erected that they then had quite layed the honour of Christ for euer in the dust and as it should seeme by the circumscriptions that they thereupon caused to bee engraued they set theÌ„ vp euen of purpose to brag that they had like great conquerers quite extinguished as they terme it the superstitioÌ„ of Christ Which they would neuer haue done if either they or their fauorites had then seene a visible succession of Bishops and pastours amongst them and had knowen their names and where to haue found them If wee go on to the time that the Arrians most florished wee shall read that the Emperour Constantius sayed to Liberius Quota pars es tu orbis terrarum qui solus facis cum homine scelerato meaning Athanasius Ecclesiast Hist Theodoreti lib. 2. cap 16. whereby it appeareth that then the
Catholiques that withstood the Arrians in the sight of this Emperour had but a poore visibility to bragge of Yea Piggius your owne man confesseth Hierar lib. 1. cap. 6. that their poison had defiled not a part but almost the whole world in so much that almost al the Bishops not only of the east but also of the West by one meanes or other were blinded and no small time continued this heresie and this is certaine that they bragged then as much of visible succession of the name of the Church and vniuersality as euer since you haue done calling the true Christians Homousians as you doe now Lutherans Zwinglians as appeareth in the writings of those that wrote against them You may see therefore that these weapons or staies are coÌ„mon to you with blasphemous and condemned heretiques These places of Scripture and experiments therefore caused August vpon the 10. Psalm 78. Epist to compare the Church vnto the Moone which besides the monethly waynings suffereth oftentimes ecclipsies And surely vnles we be too too wilfull al these things togither may make vs out of doubt that the Church of God both before Christ since hath ofteÌ„ failed to cary any such outward visible shew in theeies of the world that it is so easie a matter to make at al times demonstration of her Pastours teachers who they were and where they taught as you our aduersaries would beare the world in hand it is And therefore for answere to this Chapter to any reasonable man this is sufficieÌ„t The II. Chapter SAint a Thus you are falne from prouing that you are come to your places by the ordinary calling of such as haue ri htly succeeded one another both in person office trueth of doctrine which is the thing you should haue proued to shew that there hath alway bene and must be a successioÌ„ of Pastours to continue settle meÌ„ in the truth which is another point For though this were grauÌ„ted you yet you haue not therby wun the other Paul followeth this discourse in the fourth Chapter vnto the EphesiaÌ„s where as he doeth declare vnto vs the fruit that doeth proceed of this successioÌ„ of Pastours and of the perseueraÌ„ce of the reasonable sheepe in one kinde of spirituall doctrine called the vnity of faith For he sayeth that God established this order to that ende that wee should not bee like light children a The more is your sinne that haue suffered yourselues to be caried away froÌ„ the truth by the enticements of Antichrist caried away with euery blast of false doctrine through the subtilitie of men their crafty words full of deceit In these wordes you doe see how the Apostle doeth declare vnto vs the counsaile the intentioÌ„ of the holy Ghost b If you had beene constant in this faith wee and you had beene all of one minde and vnles we can â—ustifie our faith to bee euen so grounded as you say we will forsake it and ioine with you but if we caÌ„ then you are to forsake yours to ioine with vs if you will answere the intention of the holie Ghost I meane that we should be constaÌ„t in our faith the which is grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the Doctours Pastors that successiuely haue continued in one kinde of faith Catholick religion froÌ„ the first time that it was preached with out turning with euerie winde but rather that we ought to stand firme stable Here is to be noted that wheÌ„ the Apostle doeth tel how he hath left vs pastors doctors to warne vs of the subtletie of false teachers he doth vse a certaine greeke word very apt for this purpose the which hath in English the signification of the c I would not you had forgot this note for it doeth liuely paint out your doctours which by this their skil in cogging and cosening doe make the scriptures to haue a flexible sence alwaies sutable to the practise of your Romish Church how variable so euer that be playing or cogging at dise And euen as he that hath no great skill if he plaie with such a one he wil soone lose his money because the other caÌ„ cast what he will EueÌ„ so if a simple maÌ„ being vnlearned doe chaÌ„ce to talke with such a one as caÌ„ cog or to speake plainelie falsly interprete the Scriptures he may soone be deceaued as we see it daily happeÌ„ to many that play away put in hazard the rest of al their spiritual inheritaÌ„ce I meane the faith which hath bene left to theÌ„ by their fathers froÌ„ age to age since Christs time Thus haue the Arrians the Nestorians diuers other heretikes deceiued manie a man as I will shewe more at large hereafter The II. Chapter IN this second chapter you obserue further out of the 4 to the Ephe. before alleadged that God established a ministery in his Church that we should not be like childreÌ„ caried away with euery blast of vain doctrine thorow the subtlety of meÌ„ their crafty words full of deceit whereupoÌ„ you inferre that thereby God hath taught vs to be constaÌ„t in our faith grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the doctors pastors that successiuely haue coÌ„tinued froÌ„ the beginning in the same Who of vs euer either wrote spoke or thought otherwise But herein is your subtlety that you take this stil for grauÌ„ted which indeed is the maine question betwixt vs and for determinatioÌ„ wherof on your side you haue as yet saied nothing that the faith and religion which your Synagogue is in possessioÌ„ of is that faith which you speake of which we constantly deny affirming the faith religion which we professe to be that indeede wherein the Apostle would haue vs constant and setled and which hath alwaies coÌ„tinued in the Church and hath bene taught and iustified out of the word writen by the true pastors thereof in one place or other froÌ„ time to time And therfore herein you haue saied nothing but the we vnderstanding it of our faith and religion maketh as much for vs as for you We grauÌ„t you also that false teachers and wrong interpreters of the Scriptures worthily there may haue their subtlety expressed by a word importing cogging or cosening but then still we adde that your teachers a long time haue bene the meÌ„ that haue vsed and yet doe vse that cogging tricke Which if it would please you once by the souÌ„d rules of interpreting the scriptures to let your interpretations and ours be examined we doubt not but to make most manifest vnto all men quickly The III. Chapter THe place that I haue quoted of the Apostle doth shew how daÌ„gerous a thing it is to fal into the hands of such Coggers of the scriptures likewise how certaine a thing it is a Such interpretation of the doctour we will most willingly follow and if you should you would
Now betwixt Iohn Wicklifes tyme and the florishing of Iohn Hus which was about the yeare 1410 very many both here and elsewhere for following Wicklife were persecuted as namely here in England William Swinderley Walter Brute William Sautry Iohn Badby and William Thorpe whereof diuerse were most cruellie burned Then when Iohn Hus and Hierome of Prage had beene burnt at the councell of Constance for taking the like course in Boemia that Iohn Wicklife his fellowes had done before here in England about the yeare 1417 the religion that we now professe began to gather so great strength in Boemia that the professours therof were able not onely to defend themselues by force of armes from the intended oppressions against them by the Bishop of Rome and his adherentes but also to get many glorious victories against the strongest powers that the pope could raise against them Now from the yeare 1410 when Hus began to florish vnto Luthers tyme 1517 wonderful many both there in Boemia here in Englād and elsewhere continually rose vp and stoode forth euen vnto the death against popery in the profession of our religion Amōgst whō here in England at one tyme in the yeare 1413 there were burned in Saint Giles fielde vnder the name of Lollardes 36. Amōgst whom Sir Roger Acton Knight Master Iohn Browne and Master Iohn Beuerley were put to death After 1415 Richard Claydon and Richard Turning were burnt in Smithfield about this tyme 16. of name were persecuted in Kent and very many in other places of this Land Within a while after in the yeare one thousand foure hundred twenty two William Tailor was burnt here and two yeares after that William White was burne and betwixt that time and the yeare 1430 father Abraham of Colchester Iohn Waddon and Richard Houeden were burnt And about that time Paul Crow a Bohemiā was burnt there Thomas Rhodonensis at Rome And ere Luther beganne to preach against the Pope and his doctrine from the yeare one thousand foure hundred and thirty here suffered for the same religion that we now preach and embrace amongst many others Richard Wich Iohn Goose one Babran one Ierome and others with him Iames Marden William Tilsworth one Father Roberts and Sir Iohn Olde-castle the Lord Cobham Now since Luther I hope you will not deny but the nūber of them that are on our side against you euen in these Westerne parts cary such a visible shew that you cannot but heare and see the multitudes thereof round about you at home and abroad to be such that I dare say your harts begin to feare that if the number increase but a while longer as it hath done of late your Romā prelate is like to turne vp his heeles to leese his glory in these westerne parts aswel as hee hath done long ago in the Easterne cuntries And therefore you cannot but likewise thinke that he doth very wisely prouidently to send before hand as he doth his Ihesuits amōgst the sauage and wilde Indians to prepare him there a new kingdome against he hath lost his old here For not onely vnder your owne noses in Italie and Spaine and elsewhere wheresoeuer your antichristian tyranny causeth your religion to haue outward and publicke allowance to your griefe you see doe what you can our religion findeth still many constant confessours euen vnto death and hath done now these many yeares but also you know that so many kingdomes and cuntries haue giuen yet doe open allowance to ours and defyance to yours as antichristian that by this time you cannot but see your old argument of vniuersality groweth fast to be out of date force with you and beginneth a pace to stand on our side For euē in these Westerne parts our doctrine is embraced and professed and hath beene now a good while with the allowance of publicke authority and yours openly defaced writen and preached against as antichristian in the kingdomes of England Ireland Scotland Denmarke Sweden and France likewise in Bohemia and in Polonia in diuers whole territories Dukedomes in Holand and Zeland and in the Prince of Russia his dominions And besides who knoweth not that in like maner it is now hath beene long in the Dukedome of Saxonie and of Brunswicke in the dominions of the Palsgraue of Rhene the Dukedome of Wittenberg in the territories of the Lantgraue of Hessia and the Marques of Brandeburge besides the great common weals of Heluetia Rhetia Vallis Tellina and the cuntries of diuers other noble men in other places of Germany and elsewhere But they that hereby sufficiently doe not perceiue the folly falshood of your saying that before Luther we can name none to haue beene of this mind I refer them for further confutation of that your shamelesse vntrueth vnto Illiricus Catalogue of the witnesses of the trueth to the Centuries of them of Magdeburge and to master Foxes Actes and monumēts of the Church where they shal finde not onely much of these thinges here briefly touched by me more at large set down but also further proofe out of good authors that this religion which wee nowe professe hath had alwaies since Christ to these dayes in once place or other both embracers and teachers of it And therefore though it hath not alwayes had so visible and glorious a succession of pompous ambitious and proud prelates as yours hath had for these later tymes since Antichrist grew to his pride and height yet it hath neuer beene without flockes and sheepheardes one going before another in the profession of our religion euen vp from our dayes vnto Christ But when for very shame conuicted with the force of the trueth you are driuen to confesse that in some parte it may be true that there were alwaies some that ioyned with vs yet to driue vs from alleadging their names and succession against you you say they yet helde so many different and lewde opinions that we cannot fetch any continuance to our faith or religion from them Whereunto I answer first that we are not to beleeue your reportes of them but their owne Apologies and writings whereby it appeareth that it hath bene alwaies your fashion the more thereby to discredit thē to charge them to holde a number of absurd opinions which they neuer held Besides I say though it may be in some points we and they differ yet as long as we they agree in the foūdation we haue learned to account them our brethren 1. Cor. 3. and so to ioyne with them in that which they hold well And lastly to driue you from this shift we tell you that if you will countenance your religion and Church with none but with those that agree with you fully in all pointes there is neuer an ancient father for 600 yeares no not any writer or pastour in the Church of any good credit for 1000 yeares that you may make any reckoning of that which then wil go very neare you euen
since Augustine the monkes comming into England as I haue saied and for 300 yeares after him your glorious succession must faile there are so many apparent differences for so long space at least betwixt the opinions that your pastors and doctors hold now and them that were held then Take heede therefore whiles you measure thus to vs and so seeke to disgrace them whose names we cite that the same be not measured to you againe so the necke of your visible Succession be broken to the perill of the life of your Church which draweth her breath thereby Now to come to your disgracing of our Church with the difference of opinion betwixt Luther and Zuinglius and your laying to our charge all the heresies that haue sprung vp since Luther began first to preach against you therein do you vs manifold wrong For who knoweth not that it is no strange or new thing to finde the deare seruants of God and the true members of Christs Church sometimes and in some things differing and hoatly dissenting in opinion Doe we not read Mat. 16. that one thing seemed good to Peter and the contrary seemed and was indeed good in Christs iudgement Did not Peter take one course and Paul another at Antioch Galat. 2. insomuch that Paul there rebuked Peter openly and sharpely And finde we not Act. 15. Paul and Barnabas growen to that heat of contention about the receiuing againe or refusing of Iohn Marke that they parted companies And if we leaue the Scriptures and go downe to later times and view the state of the Church euen in the purest times thereof we shall finde it no strange thing to see diuersities of opinions and therefore also hoat contentions betwixt those whom yet we will and must account the true members of the Church Betwixt Polycrates Victor the East and West Churches Irenaeus and certaine other Bishops of France and some Popes the contention about the obseruation of Easter was such Euse 5.21.22.23.24 that one side excommunicated another that diuers Synods were held to appease it and yet it cōtinued 300 yeares more And who knoweth not that there was contention betwixt Cypriā other Bishops of Africke Cornelius Stephanus Bishops of Rome for that they euē thē at Rome encroched too much as the other thought to intermeddle within the iurisdictiōs of the Bishops of Africke in receiuing condēned excōmunicated fugitiues that ran to Rome frō thence Neither was the controuersie small betwixt them about the rebaptizing of those that had beene before onely baptized by heretiques For proofe of both which points I refer you to the third and fourth Epistles of Cyprians first booke of Epistles and to the first Epistle of his second booke and to the third and fourth Chapters of Eusebius seuēth booke Basil also and the Church of Caesarea as it is well knowen were at hoat contention about Ecclesiasticall songes and ceremonies Theophilus of Alexandria and Chrysostome of Constantinople had betweene them a violent and troublesome contention and great part taking there was of both sides and that along time Cyrillus of Alexandria wrote against Theodoret in a controuersie of Catholicke religion Betwixt Miletius a Bishop of Aegypt and one Peter of Alexandria and their followers of both sides there arose and continued a long whyle to the great trouble of the Church a lamentable contention All Ecclesiasticall stories for the most part haue with griefe made report of these yea downe from Christ to the age wherein euery one of them wrote it too plainly appeares in them that there was neuer yet any one century of yeares but it hath had new contentions and those many not onely betwixt heretiques and catholickes but also euen amongst those that otherwise of both sides were to bee reputed sounde Christians Hierom and Augustine as all men will confesse were in their times worthy so to be accounted and yet it appeareth in their works that there was great diuersity of opinions and that in many things of great moment betwixt them Epiphanius Bishop of Cyprus and Chrysostome of whom I spake before were both famous Christians and yet the stories of their tymes shew that they were bitter enemies It is notoriously knowen that amongst the Bishops assembled against the Arrians at the councell of Nice Constantine by the bookes offered vnto him one against an other found that they then had amongst themselues many contentions and varieties of opinions and infinite it were to reckon vp all the examples that might easily be found to this end Indeede I reade for these and such like differences the Iewes and Heathen people mocked at the Christians and hereby sought mightily to deface them and their religion seuenth Stromat Clement Alexandrini But I neuer read that either then or since euer any sounde Christian though for this cause they tooke occasion to mourne yet that they or any of them tooke occasion to condemne either the one side or the other or both as not to be therefore at all of the Church of Christ For notwithstanding these differences they saw that they ioyned togither otherwise as brethren in holding togither the fundamentall pointes And that they whom you call Lutherans Zuinglians doe so the booke of late set forth of the Harmony of the confessions of all the Churches that hereabouts professe the Gospell doeth make it most manifest and euident And therfore for any force that this reason carieth with it this their differēce which is in effect only about the maner of the presēce of Christ in the Sacramēt they both may be mēbers of the true anciēt Catholick Church as wel as these other whō I haue named Another wronge that herein they offer vs is this that beeing themselues at variance amongst themselues and hauing had many and great contentions and yet hauing still some about as great a matter of religion as this that yet forgetting the beame in their owne eies like hypocrites they are so busie with the moate in ours For who so readeth the histories of their Popes writen by their owne frendes besides a number of hoat and contentious schismes troubling all Christendome for many yeares togither yea sometimes fourty years continuing betwixt their Popes Antipopes he shall finde it so common a thing for the succeeding Pope to contrary the proceedings of his predecessour as though the chiefe glorie of their papacy lay in that and therefore poore Gratian tooke a combersome worke in hand to make a concorde of such discording Canons Their religion considered it is one of the greatest controuersies that can be whither the pope or a generall councell haue the superiour authority and so must be the carier of the Churches tongue to decide and determine controuersies and yet euen in this controuersie they are so at concorde that the councell of Constance and Basil determined one way and the councels of Florence and Ferraria the other way and yet both sides hath his stout champions The Scotistes and Thomistes many an
ministers of our Church and Religion and no maruell that they that are not light headed send vs to preach in new found landes c. This in effect you haue often saied and if that will serue you will not sticke with vs to say it in euerie Chapter But this being indeede the question whereupon the determinatioÌ„ of the whole controuersie betwixt you and vs dependeth namely whither our Religion bee not the true ancient Religion taught by Christ and his Apostles for you to passe it ouer thus with bare words and neuer to go about soundly to proue that it is not is but too too childish and ridiculous Well may you in your owne conceite and in the opinion of the simple silly reader seeme herein to haue done a great act but in the iudgement of any of meane witte capacity howsoeuer you may bee counted a wordy man yet you shall neuer be accounted a worthie champion to fight in this greatest question onely with bare wordes The XV. Chapter YOV will saie to me that this argument ought to take place in an ordinarie commission but a Though in such times estates of the Church wherein Luther and some others liued there were iust occasion why God should stirre vp men extraordinarily to serue him yet you know well enough that both he and others whose calling you most cal in question were not without an ordinary outwarde calling of men yours is extraordinary as that was of the Prophets of the olde Testament whom God did sende to correct the Scribes and Pharises and that euen so God hath inspired you and others of your sect to the like effect that is to say to correct the superstitious liues and doctrine of the Papists Idolaters and by this as farre as I can see ye are coÌ„missaries of God in his behalfe yee maie saie wel with S. Paul although yee haue not bene rauished vnto the third heauen * Gal. 1. that ye are not sent by man or of man but by the authoritie of our Sauiour Christ But what would you saie if we should speake against it as a number doe and that to reuenge this quarell we should write against your commission we might well aide our selues with a Sillogisme of our Sauiour Christ if we would come to pleade the matter which is this c* This argument the contrariety betwixt your religioÌ„ Christs being as it is proues neither your Church nor Priests to be of God He that is of God doeth obey *b Joh. 6. b Iohn the eight you would haue saied the word of God but you doe not obey the word of God therefore yee are not of God I knowe that you will denie the Minor and therefore it doeth appertaine to vs to proue it Christ doeth saie * Mat. 22. a In this particuler respect witnes your Popes vsurping ouer Christian Princes none were euer more â—uilâ—y in denying to Cesar that which is Cesars then you Giue vnto Cesar that that appertaineth to Cesar and to God that that appertaineth to God That is to saie to speake familierlie giue Geneua vnto his Lord and the Bishopricke vnto his Bishop Now you doe not obeie this commandement therefore as one that doeth not appertaine vnto God you haue prouided your selfe a new master And because we would not haue some to thinke that we that are not of the cuntrie doe beare false witnes against you or that we doe it without hauing anie interest vnto the matter b Nay the euidence of the matter sheweth that your owne sauage dealings contrary to the publicke edicts of that cuntrey hath caused the stâ—rs there and now of late you haue reuiued them by open treason and rebellion I am sure that all the world doeth know that yee haue set all France in as ill an estate as ye haue done the Dukedome of Sauoy In that that appertaineth to the Church is there anie Bishoprick or Dioces left where ye haue not sought with al your power to preach your holie doctrine where haue ye forgotten that that Saint Paul doth saie which is * Rom. 10. how shal they preach if they are not sent What right haue you to come to reape other mens corne Doe not you remember that that Tertullian doeth write against your elders that did persecute the catholique Church against whom he saieth in his c This TertulliaÌ„ would surely haue saied of you â— he had liued in these daies booke de praescriptione haereticorum What are yee and from whence doe yee come By what right O Marcian doest thou cut downe my woode Why doest thou O Appelles remoue my landes And a little after he sayeth the place is mine I haue beene thus long time in possession and before thee I haue good title and euidence to maintaine my right of those to whom it did appertaine which left it me by inheritaÌ„ce from the Apostles c. Our church of France which is one of the principal members of all the Catholique Church might with good cause saie vnto you the like And I praie what would you answere You cannot denie but that d If this were true as it is false that your religioÌ„ were a thousand yeares olde yet being no elder it is too young by fiue hundreth yeares at the least to be the true religion aboue a thousand yeares before ye were borne that the faith in which yee were baptized and the which you haue falselie denied was planted I doe not saie in this onelie kingdome of France but ouer all Christendome If you pretende any right to the contrarie shew the reason of your possession by the euidence of the e This we can haue often done already ancient doctours and after come to demande it as I haue saied before I meane that you should yeelde the ecclesiasticall gouernment which you haue vsurped in manie places with too great libertie of conscience and licence to doe euill which is the verie death of the soule f S. Augustines words are these quae est pejor mors anima quam libertas erroâ—is as Saint Austine doeth saie Epist 166. And after that yee haue restored France to his olde estate then there will be more apparence of the matter that ye are sent to preach the true word of God then there is now But is this estate that yee are although that God had giuen you commission the which he neuer thought he would haue called it backe because of your noble actes Theodosius and g Areadius I think you ment Arcades which in olde time were Emperours of Rome L. si quis in tantam cod vnde vi did establish or make al Edict that if the true owner or lord of a thing should vse anie force or to seeke by the waie of violence without staying for the senteÌ„ce of the Iudge h Euen thus you and your predecessours got possession of your places therefore by this law you haue but right
our ReligioÌ„ to be the true ancient Catholicke faith taught by the Apostles and euer since continued in Christes true Church namely first for that by the Canonicall scriptures we can proue it to be the same that they preached seeing it caÌ„not be denied but their preaching and writing agreed and secondly because our Religion in all points agreeth with the ancient groundes of the Catechisme the ten coÌ„mandemeÌ„ts the articles of the faith the Lords praier c. And for these causes indeede we most confidently say and aduouch that you doe vs extreame wrong the trueth soundnes of these two reasons notwithstanding either to call our Church or ReligioÌ„ new or thus to call for miracles to confirme it now as though it had neuer beene confirmed thereby before But in all this with you we say nothing to the purpose yet with the indifferent Reader I hope it is to good and great purpose seeing hereby we labour to proue that our church and Religion is not new and but of 40. yeares continuance as here most vntruly you charge it but olde ancient because it agreeth in euery point with the principles of the ancient Christian Catechisme All you say to confute this argument of ours is that we haue learned our Catechisme of you otherwise we should not or could not haue come by it Whereunto I answere that if wee had had no better Catechisers then you we had yet beene but badly Catechised and this further you may be sure of your credit was by your long and manifold lewd dealing so crackt with vs if we had not found these parts of the Catechisme either flatly expressed or sufficiently confirmed and grounded in the Canonicall scriptures vpon your credit we had not receiued them besides as I haue plentifully shewed in the 4. Chapter we haue had in all ages from Christ downe to our owne very manie of our owne Religion that haue continued and from hand to hand deliuered vnto vs these partes of the Catechisme more soundly and faithfully then you haue done so that if you had neuer beene we should farre better and sooner haue learned these things But in the most wise prouidence of God these were in some sort also continued amongst you that so you might be the more without excuse in that notwithstanding the light that migh haue shined vnto you thereby you yet chused rather to walke in grosse and palpable darknesse then in the light thereof And therefore sathan the Prince of darknesse in your Synagogues through the helpe of his vicar generall your Pope and his Chaplaines neuer ceased vntill by one blinde and hellish perswasion or other whatsoeuer Paul had taught to the contrarie 1 Corint 14. he brought to passe not onely that all your Lyturgie and seruice should bee in Latin and rather lying legends permitted to be read in the Churches publickly in the mother tongue then the Scriptures of God but also that these portions of the Catechisme should either not bee learned at all or else onely in the Latin and vnknowen tongue which he knew was all one in effect Otherwise then thus by your good wils how little soeuer we had vnderstoode the latin tongue wee should not nor could not bee suffered to learne them and therefore this learning being altogether wtout edification neither is there any cause why you should brag that we haue learned our Catechismes of you nor why we should accouÌ„t our selues any thing in your debte for the same Further to make it yet more appeare how little beholden we are to you for teaching vs the Catechisme let vs but a little consider euen your most diligent Catechising of men in these three partes thereof here named by you the ten commandements the creede and the Lordes prayer First concerning the ten commandements in steede of one God which there we are commanded to haue you in teaching vs to worshippe Saints Angels your breaden God and your Pope as you doe haue taught vs to worship so many more Gods then one and secondly that your images and idols might staÌ„d to the enritching of your cleargy with the idolatrous offrings vnto theÌ„ it was and is a common trick with you in setting down the commandements in your Catechismes and elsewhere to leaue the second commandement quite out which is directly both against the making and worshipping of them and yet least you should of euery one be spied in finding them but 9. you deuide the tenth into two And as for the other 2. coÌ„mandements of the first table by your ordinary most coÌ„mon practise the people were taught whatsoeuer is there to the coÌ„trary that it very well becommeth them of your schoole vsually to sweare by a number of things that are no Gods and to season all their common talke with oathes of all sortes and to turne the day which should bee kept holy to the Lorde to a daie of the greatest vanitie and impiety of al the daies of the weeke And to proceede to the second table neuer did the Iewes more make the 5. commandement of none effect for loue of their Corban then you haue done to maintaine your infinit orders of monks friers nuns in all contempt and neglect of duety to their pareÌ„ts if once you could entise them into those cloisters How pretious soeuer bloud be yet so small a matter hath it bene with you that your Synagogue is drunke with the bloud of Gods saints and euery varlet is not only easily dispensed withall with you but also often much commended if hee can though neuer so traiterously embrue his haÌ„ds for the furtherance of your kingdome in the bloud of subiect or Prince brother or of whoÌ„ soeuer else And as for adulterie or fornication yea for sinnes against nature not to be named your great Catechisers neuer haue seemed to make reckoning of in that notwithstanding they know that these haue followed in such infinite measure vpon their inforced single life in euerie corner that the stench thereof hath long ago reached vp vnto heauen to pul downe Gods fearce vengeance against you yet rather then they would let go this tricke of hypocrisie they are contented that this â—ench increase stil Your infinite and open sacriledges in building founding your cloisters and Prelacies in spâ—â—â—ing the seuerall parishes of their ordinarie maintenance for their ministers other your innumerable vnsatiable pillings polings of Gods Church your decree and practise in not keeping any faith with those whom you couÌ„t heretiques and your ordinary doctrine that bare concupiscence â—s no sinne shew what Catechisers you are for the rest And whereas in the creede we be taught indeede to beleeue onely in the Trinitie in that you vsually teach vs to trust yea in the matter of saluation to a number of things besides and to praie vnto saints and Angels it being plainly taught vs in the word that beside God there is not sauiour Esa 43. and that Christs name is the onely name of
The XXIIII Chapter THe Catholicke Church continuallie hath faithfullie holden doeth holde that our Sauiour Iesus Christ is true God and man hauing taken natural flesh in the wombe of the virgin Marie wholie like vnto ours as touching the corporal essence that is to saie excepted onelie sinne the vvhich bodie he did forme of the verie flesh and substaunce of his mother by the operation of the holy Ghost vvho hath vvrought so notable and excellent a vvorke that tvvo contrary or diuers natures are miraculouslie ioined vnited in one person without confusiō or conuersion of the one substance into the other but by coniunction vnion of them both called by the diuines Hipostatique This doctrine hath euer beene receiued and holden by the Church in equal degree of trueth and reuerence with the rest of the points of religion which now you seeke to abolish And notwithstanding this diuers Ministers and Preachers deriued from the sacred consistories of Valentinus Photinus Manes Theodorus Nestorius Apollinaris Eutichus Macharius Eutiocheus besides a great number of other famous heretickes that I cannot here name haue sought to teach the contrary saying that they were sent from him that sent the Apostles to reforme the Church b Thus at your pleasur◠you father vpon these heretiques to make them resemble vs that the contrary whereof the ancient fathers attribute vnto thē namely that they shunned trial by the scriptures that they accused them of vnsufficiency darkenes and so fled to vnwriten traditions and fond reuelations euen as you doe for al the world not by the Traditions of men which you cal Papistical but by the pure word of God For euen like you my masters did Valentinus his fellowes begin the reformed Church taking vpon them the correction of al the Magistrates and Fathers in times past saying that they did abuse the people because that they taught that Iesus Christ had taken flesh and bloud of the Virgin Marie saying that this vvas a great errour the vvhich ought to be reformed and that the people should beleeue that he brought his bodie from heauen and that he caused it to passe through the wombe of the Virgin Marie as the water doeth through the chanell This Gospel was verie straunge yet the saied Valentinus did not want Scripture as you haue to confirme it interpreting it euen as you doe interpret here in France He did alleage for his text the third of Iohn where Christ doeth saie No person is ascended to heauen but hee that did descende from heauen And therefore did he maintaine that seeing Christ is in heauen and descended from heauen that he tooke no flesh of the virgin Marie Nestorius another notable hereticke did lincke his Gospell to Apollinaris opinion in this case seperating the manhood from God and saying that the sonne of man ought not to be called God for seeing saied Apollinaris that this man is descended from heauen it doeth follow that hee tooke no flesh of the virgin besides this Christ saiethe * Ioh. 6. I am descended from heauen not to doe my will but the will of my father Here hee doeth not speake as one that is God for if it were so he would haue no other wel but the will of his father and so he doeth speake like a man And he saieth that he is descended from heauen for the which cause this same Valentinus did take the conclusion of this Gospel to his aduantage for the third authoritie that is writen in the first to the Corinthians where Saint Paul saieth the first man is of earth earthlie the second is of heauen heauenly The which passage or place is as fit to serue Valentinus opinion as all the places that you and all those that hold your opinion can alleage The XXV Chapter ANother Minister likewise called Apollinaris followed after these sent by the saied master yet according to his saying he did preach the pure word of God affirming that the Church ought to bee reformed which had beleeued that the two natures were cōtained in Iesus Christ that the true religion was to beleeue as it is writen in the 1 of Iohn that the word was indeed become flesh or cōuerted into flesh And to confirme this he did alleage the saied place where S. Iohn doeth say And the word was made flesh whē the catholickes did reply against him saying that the verbe or word tooke flesh not as touching the conuersion of one substāce into another he did fortifie his Gospel with another text where S. Iohn doeth write of the mariage at Canaa where the water was chāged into wine that is to saie as touching the very substance of the water which vvas turned into wine Euen so saieth he that it became at the verie Incarnation of Christ alleaging that that we haue saied And the word was made flesh Arrius which was the most famous hereticke that euer hath bene did pretēd to verifie another gospell his was that our Sauiour Christ had not taken at his incarnation a perfect soule another men haue but that he had onely a body and that his diuinity did supplie the absence of his soule Of this opinion was Apollinaris Theodorus Mossnestenus and Nestorius came after and they did blame the Catholick Church because it did teach the saied vnion called as I haue saied Hipostatique that is to saie of the two natures in one person And they did alleage for their argument a verie subtil reason the which was that God did inhabite within the body of our sauiour as he did within a Temple that is to say by grace and not by being vnited togither And therefore euen as it were a great folly to saie that God is a Temple that so it is to saie that God is a man This Gospell did seeme verie new yet did not they want Scripture to maintaine it a That is not because we haue not plainer places rightly alleaged for proofe of our religion but that in Gods iust iudgement such as you haue eies and ee not and that more plainer then euer I could see anie place to maintaine your heresies Christ did saie vnto the Iewes * Joh. 2. Vndoe this Temple and in three daies I will build it againe He meant it by the Temple of his bodie saieth S. Iohn Then the bodie of Iesus Christ is the Temple of God God is not his temple See whether this be not a notable argument to deceiue the simple man that is not vsed to read how the doctours expound these hard places And moreouer they did alleage S. Paul in the first to the Colloss where hee doeth saie that the plenitude or fulnes of diuinitie doeth dwell in Iesus Christ corporallie they do alleage this place greatly to their purpose to proue that God is b In him as in left out I thin e. a Temple that is to saie by grace not being vnited For the third place they take the 8. of Iohn where
of those men then we shall be this other way Seeing therefore Christ tooke this way himselfe both with the deuil himselfe with his chaplaines both to confute their errours erroneous interpretations to confirme the trueth by searching the scriptures and neither he nor his Apostles sent vs either by word or their example to the high Priests then or vnto any other for resolutioÌ„ of the church or trueth this way as the best only way we thinke all ChristiaÌ„s bound to take And in so doing let not any man despaire but that through the goodnes of God he shal be inabled to trie the spirits to discerne who amongst all other alleadge the scriptures soundliest For we see it is the fashion of our God to reueile his trueth and the misteries thereof to those that be his how simple soeuer when he doeth conceale hide them from the great men of the world Mat. 11.1 Cor. 1. But you say If this may and must be atteined by the grace of the holy ghost obteined of the lord by faithfull inuocatioÌ„ of his name how chanceth it that since Luther for no ancienter you say though it be neuer so false our ReligioÌ„ is you haue not obteined that holy ghost to ende your hoat contentions and debates amoÌ„gst your selues that so you might be at vnity yet amoÌ„gst your selues This is spoken as though it must needes follow that either we haue not faithfully praied vnto God for his spirit or els if we haue that then of necessity there neither could be nor would be any difference of opinions and contentions at all amongst vs. If you be of this mind then the manifold differences schismes sects varieties of opinions that haue beene and yet are in your church as I haue noted cap. 4. argueth in your Logicke that your church neuer yet praied faithfully and effectually for the holy ghost But indeede your argumeÌ„t is naught For it appeareth Ioh. 17. that Christ himselfe praied for vnity amongst his Apostles and all that should beleeue their doctrine no doubt of it he was heard in that he praied for Heb. 5.7 and obteined for his heaueÌ„ly father would deny him nothing and yet you haue heard cap 4. after this there were varieties of opinions and hoate contentions betwixt some of them that doubtles of both parts were within the compasse of Christes praier And therefore that praier of Christ and the prayers of his seruants made to that ende are to be vnderstoode to take place and to be effectuall in that there is so much vnity amongst the true members of the Church atteined thereby as is sufficient to holde them togither in the communion of saints which is if they ioyne togither in holding the foundation and fundamentall points of Religion though otherwise there be differences and hâ—at contentions sometimes amongst them And it may not be thought as you seeme to take it that such prayers either are not effectually made or els there must followe thereupon simply an vniuersall accorde in all things For then Christes prayer was not effectuall in that after Paul and Barnabas were at aâ—arre Act. 15. c. That vnity that you speake of the Church may striue for here but she is not to make her account to atteine vnto it before she come in heauen and bee maried to her husband there And so much vnity there is betwixt vs and those whom we count members of Christes Church with vs as that though there be some variety of opinions and therefore also contention but too much yet we ioyne so togither here in the foundation and other most principal points of our Religion that we doubt not but the Lord hath heard our praiers and graunted vs the spirit of vnity so farre forth as that one daie we hope in heauen all to ioine together in perfect vnity notwithstanding the iarres that otherwise in the meane time to trie vs withall be fouÌ„d amongst vs. You know we praie daily that Gods will may be done in earth as it is in heauen and so doe you or you are to blame and herein we hope we are heard and yet simply we neuer found nor shall as long as the world standeth the will of God so done here as it is in heauen For continually there is disobedieÌ„ce to his will here in one thing or other one way or other euen amongst the best but in that in such measure as God seeth this fit to be obteined here he granteth it we are notwithstanding to thinke our prayers effectuall Christ himselfe praied Iohn 17.15 to deliuer his church from euill and yet though that prayer was heard in that God so farre forth preserueth his church from euill as he seeth it expedient for the state thereof here we see daily that many are the troubles and euils that the poore church is encombred withall And therefore to conclude you must vnderstaÌ„d that the faithfull praiers of Gods saints are to be accounted effectuall though the thing they pray for be not obteined in full perfection here as long as so much here is obteined as the Lorde seeth to bee necessary and conuenient for the estate of his seruantes So that notwithstanding the differences amongst vs you might and would if you had the grace ioyne rather with vs in our Religion then continue in that wherein you are the professours whereof are torne a sunder with moe and greater differences then the churches that receaue ours are howsoeuer you deceiue the simple with the vizarde of vnity in that you ioyne together vnder your Pope against the trueth The XXVIII Chapter NOw to turne againe to our former purpose if it were so that of our owne free deliberation wee were minded to forsake our Catholique Religion a If you should be of no Religion whiles all of one were full of one mindâ— you must die a nullifidian I warrant you the iniurious disputations that you vse among your selues were sufficieÌ„t to make vs to suspeÌ„d our iudgemeÌ„t without leauing to any of both parties vntill that we could see more resolute in your opinioÌ„s being the bardest matter the knowing in what cuÌ„try the residence should be kept for that matter b Where wheÌ„ nay our absolute sentence iâ— as our bookes doe testifie and we proue it out of the ancient fathers that your doctrine in this point is but new a very young â—â—ng in comparison of that you would here haue it seeme You haue giueÌ„ absolute senteÌ„ce saying that the Catholique church hath erred euen froÌ„ the Apostles time vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are deade constituted in a third place called Purgatorie You should mee thinke at the least allowe a third place although it bee not that to receaue the soules of those whose consciences you haue so troubled that they know now neither what is their faith nor of what ReligioÌ„ they should be c Such vâ—setled and vnstable persons for all your foolish
that it is possible that such filthy heretiques as Seruetus was may shewe themselues stout in dying But what is all this to proue that our martyrs haue broken the vnion of the Catholique Church or that they died as heretiques for heresie Before you can say any thing to the purpose either to proue them no true martyrs or to blemish their patience you should haue proued that their cause and religion for which they died was not the sound Christian trueth and faith but that you wil neuer bee able to doe And therefore both al this and what els you haue noted though falsely for there is no such thing in either of these two places out of Augustine contra Epistolam Petiliani of the Donatistes forwardnesse to die and out of Cyprians first booke of Epistles falleth downe to the ground as needles besides the questiō For whatsoeuer they there spake they spake it of heretickes therfore it hath no force against vs vntil you can proue vs so in alleadging Cypriās testimony by the way of parēthesis you say we know of what Church hee spake when hee sayed the heretiques that hee wrote of could not bee saued because they separated themselues from the Church the house of peace Indeed wee knowe that hee ment not your Church which is a bloudie house a house of warre cōtentiō a house of error superstitiō but the Church of Christ that was in his time to with yours is not so like as a drunken man is to a sober discreet man or a whore vnto an honest matrone for there is likelihood in substāce though not in quality yours is vnlike to the Church then in both Zischa you cal a martial minister of the Heborites or Hussites you would say or at least I am sure you should say a noble martiall Captaine for minister he was none of them whom their malitious enimies nickenamed Thaborites or Hussites for so they were called not as you call them At your pleasure you call Michael Seruet Caluins dearling but you cānot proue that he was euer in any such accoūt with Caluin why you should tearme him so But yet if he had beene so thorow his cunning in dissembling his heresie for a time the more commendation was it to Caluin that when he proued an obstinate heretique hee was so earnest and zealous in the cause of his God that all former affection set a part he furthered his due punishment as he did And for al your speech of his willingnes to die at Geneua and great patience in dying I cannot read but that he shunned death there as much as he could keeping or holding still his heresie and that thousands haue died on the gallowes for murder felonie and treason with as great shew of courage and patience as he But to let these things passe and to returne againe to your principall drifte in this which was as you shewe in the beginning of it to proue that neither our vocation nor religion could get any credit by the inuincible patience of our holy martyrs what hath bene saied as yet to proue this Your onely argument hitherto hath beene this The cause that a man dyeth for must bee good and hee must bee no heretique many heretiques haue dyed with great shew of patience Ergo c. This argument is starke naught for al these things in your antecedent may be graunted and yet of al them togither your conclusion followeth not These thinges which are not at al in question you haue proued but this that indeed should haue giuē life to your argument that ours died in and for an ill cause were heretiques which is indeede the thing onely in question like a wise man because you could not proue it you let alone But therfore you shall be contented for al your miserable crauing of it to bee granted you to be denied both it and your conclusion which without it you can neuer come vnto You will therefore proue as you make your reader beleeue that our Martyrs were such as died in an ill cause as heretiques and therefore went to hel But what be your proofes Ioachim Westphalus a Lutheran in a worke of his but it seemeth either you could not or would not tel vs in what worke for some politique reason you had doubtles mocked at Caluin for vaūting but where he made this vaunt or where we may finde it you tel vs not that within fiue yeares aboue an hundred had died for the religion of Geneua prouing vnto him that seeing there had beene far moe of the Anabaptistes put to death in lesse space and that the Deuill had his Martyrs his religion was no whit confirmed or countenanced by his Martyrs but they might for all his bragge be in the vauntgard of the Deuils martyrs What a miserable argument is this A contentious man in the heat of his contention saied thus to disgrace his aduersary and his side therefore therupon it shall follow that it was well and truely saied of him I thinke you will grāt me that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were good men both yet in heat of contention one against another Epiphanius burst out into such choler as he saied that he hoped the other should neuer die bishop to whō Chrysostōe answered as angerly again that he trusted the other should neuer returne aliue into his own cuntrey of Cypres infinite be the examples whereby we may see that men otherwise haue in heate of contention marueylously ouershot themselues one against another And therefore God forbid that vpon euery speach of disgrace vttered in such a case by one against another should by and by a firme argument be gathered that it is euen so as the one hath saied of the other But you will say you stād not so much vpō his speach against Caluins Martyrs as vpō that that there were mo of the Anabaptists that had died in a shorter space then he talked of and that otherwise the deuil hath had his martyrs which we cānot deny Hereupon indeed it followeth that an argument drawen to iustifie an opinion and the followers of it from the bare death and shew of patience of them that hold it is not good but so did neuer any of vs reason For first we labour to proue the cause good and that done then in the patience of such as haue died in so good cause togither with the cause we take comfort And yet in trueth we are sure we may speak it to the glory of God there were neuer either so many or any that so patiently died for any other opinion or opinions whatsoeuer as first and last died for the testimony of our religion For we account all them ours that haue from the beginning died for the glorious cause of the Gospell of Iesus Christ and in that we are able by the Scriptures to proue our religion to be the same we are sure we are not deceiued in our account In the conclusion of this Chapter to
of such vayne wordes as these aboue twenty times I am sure without any proofe at al therein repeated Indeed if in al your life you could proue but halfe so much as confidently here you set downe then you were a notable fellow indeede and then truely we would striue no longer with you But in the meane time seeing we know your speeches are such as you can neuer proue and that we are able against you both to proue the falshoode of yours and the trueth of our owne blame vs not if wee esteeme not your words Yet lest you should saie that these likewise are but words in vs as the former haue beene in you though I see no reason to the contrary but that our words containing a iust and true denial of yours were sufficient confutation thereof I say and will proue it that you shew your selfe a man past al shame in writing here as you doe that all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day al the doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires kingdomes priuate states throughout al the world are against vs for they haue al receiued honoured that doctrine that we count papisticall For first such is the newnes thereof as I haue plentifully shewed in diuers places already of this booke that none of all these for sundry 100. yeares were once euer acquainted therwith yea that diuers of your assertions which are the very principallest of your opinions as namely your dotcrine of Transubstantiation of your Popes being in authority aboue generall Councels and of denying the cuppe to the lay people are not yet of 400. yeares age and continuance And it is notoriously knowen that in the daies of Gregory the 9 about the yeare of Christ 1230 by occasion of iniury and oppression offered by the Pope to that Church that the Greeke Easterne Churches departed quite from the Church of Rome and neuer since though it hath beene oft attempted could be brought to hold communion therewith againe insomuch that in your conuenticle at Trent you haue condemned them for schismatical and heretical Churches And these Churches as it is noted in an ancient record in the Church of Herford differ from yours at the least in 29 articles And they holde yours excommunicate and an Apostata Church vnto this day And vnlesse your reading be very small you cannot be ignorant that Math Paris writeth that the Patriarch of Constantinople at the Councell of Lyons shortly after this breach shewed that of 30. bishoprickes in Greece the Pope had not three that then held communion with him and that all Antioch and the Empire of Romania to the gates of Constantinople was gone quite from him There is also extant in print in ancient record an Epistle writen about seuen yeares after this breach began in the yeare 1237 by one Germanus Patriarch of Constantinople vnto the Pope wherein not only he laboureth to make him see that the occasion therof was that he tooke more vpon him ouer those Churches then he should but amongst other argumēts to persuade him to see his folly he sheweth him that not onely the Greeke Churches themselues but that al so the Aethiopians Syrians Hiberians Alani Gothi Charari with innumerable people of Russia and the mighty kingdome of the Vulgarians held communion with his Church of Constantinople and so by occasion of this schisme had forsakē felowship with the Roman Church And the Cosmographers write that the iurisdiction of the Patriarch of Canstantinople reacheth so farre that all Greece Misia Belgaria Thrasia Walachia Moldauia Russia Muscouia the iles of the Aegaean sea and Asia the lesse bee vnder the same It is also reported by authours of good credit that at this day vnder the other Patriarchs of Antioch Alexandria Hierusalem and vnder the other in the dominions of Presbyter Iohn in Africa there be infinit numbers of Churches and Christians differing from yours and ioining with ours in manie thinges So that Churches also both in the East North and South and that of very great amplitude within the time that you speake of haue professed Christ and yet haue neuer beene acquainted with most or many at the least of the pointes for the which your religion is counted of vs Papisticall in all which there haue beene some doctours vniuersities Empires Princes and priuate men no doubt since Christ before you wrote that neither honoured nor receiued your papistical religiō Yea but that merueilously you ouershot your selfe you might haue remembred that within the time limited by you in these Westerne partes there haue beene euen vnder your Popes nose and in his greatest ruffe many doctours vniuersities and some Emperours kings and priuate estates that haue neither receiued nor so honoured your religiō which we cal papistical as here you would beare your reader in hand For euen in these parts and within the compasse of these times haue bene you know Wickliffe Hus and Luther vniuersities kingdomes good store haue had both your religion Church in defiance long before you wrote He that readeth but the stories of Philip Lodovicke the last French kings of Henry the 4 5. of the 2. Fredericks the 1 2 Emperours and the Cronicles of king Iohn here in England and of 2 or 3 of his successours he shal easily perceiue that much within the compasse of time that you speake of both Empires and Kingdomes with their Emperours and Kings haue beene far from making that reckoning of your popish Church and religion that you here bragge of or else doubtlesse you must needs confesse that your Popes haue beene vnreasonable creatures that haue so cursed and banned these men as they haue and which besides haue caused such infinite Christian bloud to be by warre shed to hamper them These things considered euen children may see not onely the vanity but grosse falshood of these your wordes For howsoeuer either here or else where in this your booke you would cause your reader to beleeue that your Romish Church is the catholicke Church of Christ euery one indeed may see that in trueth it is but a particuler and a petty Diocesse in comparison of the catholicke Church of Christ For the reader must vnderstand that the Church of Christ is called catholicke first because the religion that shee imbraceth is that which hath beene at al times will be to the end the true religiō of God secondly because the same Church in respect of the mēbers therof especially since the calling of the Gentiles is not to be limited or shut vp within the compasse of any particuler countries but may vniuersally be dispersed amongst all nations and in al countreyes where it pleaseth the Lord. In neither of which sences can the Romish Church be truly accounted catholick For neither is her doctrine that which the true Church of Christ embraced was in possessiō of for 4000 years more neither are the
not amisse vnto my former answer to Iohn de Albine to annex this short answer thereunto His first signe of such as hee speaketh of hee saieth is their departure from the cōmon knowen catholick Church of Christ wherin they were baptized first receaued christiā faith and religiō and this to be such a signe he proueth out of the second chapter of S. Iohns first Epistle where he speaking of such saieth they departed frō vs but they were not of vs for if they had they would stil haue cōtinued with vs. Wherupon he thinketh that forasmuch as hee saieth wee cannot deny but that wee are the men that haue thus departed from their common knowen catholicke Church faith and religion wherein we were first baptized and that wee cannot say that they haue so departed from vs they still remaining in the same church faith and Religion that they first receaued that of necessity we must be enforced to graunt that this signe agreeth to vs and not to them This good Christian that he hath saied were of fome force if he any or all his fellowes togither were euer able to proue that they their church faith and Religion were such as Saint Iohn spake of when he so taxed men for their departure therfrom but seeing onely most beggerly all the packe of them this being the maine question betwixt them and vs alwaies take this for graunted them euen for their bolde impudent and importunate begging of it which we will neuer graunt them nor they shall euer be able to winne at our hands all that he hath saied herein is childish and vaine For we are alwaies most ready and willing to ioyne this issue with them for and about al the controuersies amongst vs that if we be not able by due conference of the Catholique and Apostolique doctrine taught by the Apostles Apostolicke men in the primitiue church testified and extant in their owne vndoubted writings with ours that we are of the same common knowen Catholique Church faith and Religion that they were and that the Romish Church in the thinges wherein wee differ from them is cleane departed from them and from the church of Christ her faith and Religion that then was that then we will as he saieth most willingly submit our selues yeelde and recant And I hope in answering of Iohn de Albine vpon occasion in sundry places I haue so shewed the agreeablenesse of our faith and Religion with the Apostles and the manifolde disagreements of the Church of Rome that nowe is from them and the ancient church of Rome planted by them as that euery one euen thereby sufficiently may see that not wee but they are the men that Saint Iohn spake of that haue departed from the true Church of Christ faith and Religion and that therefore this signe doeth so farre better agree to Papists then to vs that if this offerer will be as good as his worde hee must presentlie submit himselfe yeelde and recant In the meane time the manifest contrariety betwixt their doctrine and Christs and his Apostles made manifest vnto vs by the view of the scriptures thēselues and the notorious difference betwixt their churches practise now and the ancient churches of Rome for sixe hundreth yeares after Christ at the least made likewise euident vnto vs by all sound monuments of antiquity haue assured vs that in respect of them and their Romish Synagogue in these later daies to embolden vs to doe as we haue God from heauen by an Angel saied vnto vs go out of her my people least you be pertakers of her sinnes and so receaue of her punishments Apoc. 18. vers 4. And therefore as it was lawfull for Abraham to follow the Lordes calling Gen 12. to depart out of his owne cuntrey Chaldea and to forsake the abhominatiō thereof as it was wisedome for Lot at the admonition of the Angels to go out of Sodom Gen. 19. and as it was necessary that Christ and his should separate thēselues from the high Priests Scribes and Pharisees and their errours and superstitions though they then their followers bragged that they were the people of God his church so was it meete requisite for vs to depart as we haue from their Popish church and the popery thereof And as for our receauing our baptisme amongst them that bindeth vs no more to hold cōmunion with thē still in their false erronious religion then the receauing of circumcision bound Christ his Apostles those of the Iewes that beleued by their doctrine to continue felowship with the blind and superstitious synagogue of the hard harted Iewes or the receiuing of baptisme in former times at the hands of the ancient heretiques the Arriās or any other such like bound thē that were baptised by such y◠they might not separate themselues frō such to returne home againe to the true catholique church of Christ Againe if they thinke that men are bound alwaies to liue and die in that Religion whereof they were that baptized them why doe they labour by their Iesuits seminaries to seduce to their Religion such as we haue baptized But yet to touch them more neerely for all this brag of their still continuing in the faith and Religion they first receaued let euen their owne Baptisme and their faith and Religion that they after professe bee compared togither and the contrary will appeare For they being al baptized in the name onely of the Father the Sonne the holy Ghost as it is well knowen they are thereby they are bounde onely to beleeue in this Trinity in Vnity and Vnitie in Trinity and yet afterwardes all the sort of them notwithstanding the Apostles Creede and all other ancient Creeds teach them the same become plaine apostataes from this faith in beleeuing in a number both of persons and thinges that without blasphemy they cannot count either God the Father God the Sonne or God the holy Ghost Proofe and most palpable demonstration hereof is their beliefe in their owne merits merits of others Popes pardons halowed water other halowed things their beliefe in and therefore praying vnto Saints Angels In the wonderful prouidēce of God doubtles this forme of baptisme these creeds were preserued continued amongst thē not only to make it euen thereby euident whatsoeuer any of thē brag to the contrary neuer so oft that they are the men that daily depart both frō the faith of Christ first taught them their forefathers and after particulerly in their baptisme cōfirmed to euery one of them but also to make thē before both God man without all excuse of their so grosse apostacy from the same notwithstāding Wheras they know all the world els that knoweth vs know that we simply continue in this faith first deliuered vntd vs briefly by the holy catholique church in these creeds daily sealed vnto vs in our baptisme that euen for that it is that we are so hated and persecuted of
them that with them we will not run out frō this church and faith to beleeue in a 1000. things that are not God as they doe And therefore these things considered by this note they are proued to be the Antichristian false prophets heretiques schismatiques that he speaketh of and not we His second sure marke signe and token of false prophets c. is saieth he that they being departed from the catholique church doe of thēselues of their owne authority without warrant being not sent set vp a new gospell a new faith and Religion and so by preaching a newe doctrine assemble and set vp a newe church and congregation And to proue this Heb. 5. Rom. 10. and Exod. 4. are quoted whence onely we may learne to this purpose that none may take vpon them an office in Gods house without lawfull calling and warrant from him Yet hereupon as though these were most pregnant places to proue that to be necessary to a lawefull calling which the learned protestant can neuer proue to bee in our calling he promiseth likewise to yeelde and to recant when wee shall bee able to proue our iust and due vocation ordinarily or extraordinarily to proceede of God and not onely of mē By his owne words in describing this note or marke two things must concurre to the making of it namely the preaching of a newe Religion or Gospell and the doing of it without a iust and due vocation from God and yet in the prouing it to be such a marke in the applying it to vs he forgetteth altogither the former maketh only shew of proofe for the later Belike his own cōscience tolde him that howsoeuer it was an easie matter to insinuate that our religion was new that yet he was not able so much as to make any shew that he could proue it so to be indeed And touching the other howsoeuer the places quoted by him serue to proue a lawful calling or sending by God to be necessary for and to all such as shal take any office vpon them in his Church yet they proue not at al that there is any thing needful to the prouing of our vocation to be such wanting in ours neither doeth he name any thing required in any of these places to be in ours which he could say we wanted which it is likely he would not haue omitted to haue done if he had seene that with any probability he might haue done it And therefore any man may see that euen in this signe as in the former his onely ground is a false supposition that those things must needs be graunted him all which both most iustly and confidently we alwaies deny For without any proofe or shadow of proofe he in one periode assumeth three things against vs most vntruely slanderously as at large in sundry places of my answere to Albine I haue made it manifest namely that we are gone out of the true catholicke Church that wee haue set vp a new faith and religion and that we haue assembled a new Church and congregation Yea christian reader if thou wouldest but vouchsafe by the table annexed vnto this answere of mine to turne to the places in the saied answere where these points be handled the antiquity of our church and religion the newnes of popery and the contrariety betwixt the Romish church that now is the scriptures fathers and councels in the true catholicke church of Christ the lawfulnes of our calling to the ministry and the vnlawfulnes of their priesthood and vocation thereunto vnto other prelacies amongst them and when thou hast found them to read ouer wtout partiality what I haue writen hereof I doubt not but thereby thou wouldest see not onely that he vniustly hath here charged vs with these three faults but the most iustly we may charge thē with thē al. And therfore therunto referring thee for further answere vnto this threefold charge of his in this place vpon that which there thou shalt finde I hope with mee thou wilt conclude that this beeing a marke and a most certaine signe of antichristian heretiques as he saieth that it standeth faire vpon thē and not vpon vs therfore he should recāt The third signe tokē that the offerer talketh of is that such ouer and aboue the properties touched in the two former doe preach and teach contentiously and seditiously against the doctrine before time taught of the common knowen Catholicke Church of Christ as namely saieth hee against the sacraments of Christs Church by a flat denial of many of thē against the real presence of Christs body in the holy eucharist against the blessed sacrifice of the masse propitiatory both for the liue and the dead against penance the worthy fruits thereof by fasting watching and praier al straightnes of life against vowes inuocation of Saints praier for soules departed and finally against the Church it selfe flatly denying that Christ hath here vpon earth any spouse or visible Church to be heard speak perceiued or seene The ground of which signe he maketh that saying Hebrues 13 be you not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines so tearmed of the Apostle as he expoundeth him because they agree not but are contrary to the receiued and common knowen doctrine of Christs holy catholicke Church whereupon he groweth to his conclusion that when the learned protestant shal be able to proue that they and not we are by our preaching of these strange doctrines the raisers vp of these strifes and contentions then he wil recant and not before Whereunto I answere that vnderstanding by the common knowen catholicke Church the true Church of Christ which is knowen and acknowledged so to be alwaies of him and his faithfull members then we graūt that this is a right marke of such as he would haue it to be a marke of and that worthely in the thirteenth of the Hebrues all men are warned to take heed that they be not caried away with diuers and strange doctrines from that which she hath vniuersally taught and receiued But so taking the common knowen catholicke Church of Christ and not otherwise I say it and haue proued it in my answere to Albine that the Church of Rome that now is hath too long and doeth still not onely cōtentiously and seditiously but also furiously tirannically bloudely and euery way antichristianly preach against the doctrine before time taught by her and commonly receaued and professed by hers touching the true vse of the law and the gospell the office of Christ faith in him the doctrine of faith and workes and of praier and the sacramentes and almost of all other principall pointes of the true Christian religion And thus I am sure hee must vnderstand the church of Christ if either he would haue this to be a certaine signe of heretiques or to be thought rightly to haue expounded the 13. to the Hebrewes And therefore vnderstanding by the common knowen catholique Church of Christ
to offer him againe to his father If by penance he vnderstand repentance we neither preach against it nor against any worthy fruit thereof For we most earnestly call for both but if by penance be vnderstood either voluntary or enioyned penance as they commonly take it ioyned with an opinion thereby either to satisfie for sinnes past or to merit at Gods hand because we know that such penance and all the fruits thereof are abhominable before God because thereby Christ is robbed of that honour of a ful and perfect sauiour in by himselfe alone that is due vnto him then we graunt as we haue iust cause we preach against it Otherwise fasting straightnes of life watching and lawfull vowes to make vs more ready feruent in holy prayer we commend and vrge Indeed praying to Saints because we haue neither example coÌ„mandement nor promise in Gods book to encourage vs thereunto but all to the contrary we condemne as grosse idolatry and likewise prayer for soules departed as they vse it to relieue foules in purgatory for the same reasons and sundry other we preach against But what we teach of these two points and what not and what reasons we haue for our so doing and how quite voide they be of all ground for theirs I refer thee to the 37 Chapter of my answere to Albine where I haue at large shewed these things And thus much therfore for this 3 signe The next is to bring a schisme into the Church coÌ„trary to Pauls exhortation 1. Cor 1. and that such a schisme as wherby not onely one member shall be seperated from an other but the whole mystical body from the true head Christ Iesus which we to haue done in seperating our selues from their Church not they hee assumeth and so concludeth when the learned protestant can shew the coÌ„trary that he wil recant and not before Still thus thou maiest see good reader that this man is no changling For vnles that be graÌ„ted him which is the maine point betwixt vs that their Church is the true Church of Christ their doctrine the sound catholicke faith and religion he hath no ground or foundation for any thing he saieth For he cannot be so ignorant as to imagine that euery one straight is authour of such a schisme as he here speaketh of that by doctrine draweth others from euery society or company inuesting themselues with the name of the Church and bragging that they haue the trueth For what would he then make of Christ and his Apostles who in their time drew so many after them from holding any longer coÌ„mâ—â—tion with the Synagogue of the Iewes that then I am sure bragged as confidently of both these as this man and his fellowes doe now Or what would he say to those ancieÌ„t catholicks after Liberius time that when Arrianisme had in great part ouer run the world and the Arrians for many yeeres togither bragged theÌ„selues to be the onely 〈◊〉 catholicks disgracing theÌ„ that were so indeed with the name of Omousians that yet though they had got both bishops and emperours so many and so fast of their opinion that they had in ten seuerall councels goe sentence of their side ceased not labouring and traueling vntill they had drawen men againe to breake from them and to ioine with the poore persecuted contempt the number that then yet persecuted in the trueth I am sure they 〈◊〉 not for shame for all this count either Christ and his Apostles or these ancient catholicks antichristian heretickes or schismatiques And our drawing of meÌ„ by our doctrine now in these later daies from them is nothing else in trueth but an imitating as nigh as we can these renoumed and vndoubted good presidents examples that so the kingdome of Antichrist according to Saint Pauls prophesie might fal into consumption 2. Thessalonians 2 and that great Babylon might yet at leÌ„gth as it was reuealed vnto Ioh. Reuelations cap. 14. fall and come downe For not onely we saw that the Church of Rome had made a schisme but such an apostasie euen in the fundamentall points of Christian religion from Christ and his Church that there was no remedy but that we must breake of from her as we did or else we could neuer haue communioÌ„ indeed in Christ with his true Church Though therefore we know and at the first knew that peace vnity and concord were pretious things and by al lawfull meanes to be laboured for yet knowing withall as we doe did that it is vnity in verity and not in errour impiety with Christ not with Antichrist that is so much to be set by blame vs not for chusing rather according to these good exaÌ„ples to haue war with men then with God discord with Antichrist and al hes bread then with Christ and his members We grauÌ„t them therfore that to bring into the Church such a schisme as shal make diuision not onely amoÌ„gst Christs meÌ„bers but also of the body from the head is indeed an vndoubted signe of antichristian heretickes but wheras he taketh this for grauÌ„ted that this we haue done in departing froÌ„ theÌ„ as we haue that we deny For we teach men to hold hold our selues that faith religion as we are alwaies ready to proue by the canonical scriptures of the old and new testament that alwaies the true Church of Christ hath held and therfore which when hardly both holdeth the liuely members amongst themselues is vnity and also knitteth theÌ„ and their head Christ so fast together as that no popish or antichristian tiranny shall euer be able to seuer them And howesoeuer this proude challengeâ— thought wtâ—â— impossible thing for the learned protestant to proue that they haue brought into the Church such a schisme as hee speaketh of I the vnlearnedst often thousande doubt not that I am very well able to doe it For this is most certaine and cleare Iesus Christ the Sauiour of the worlde indeede is at this point beeing euery waie so able and willing as he did in his owne person and by himselfe alone to go through with the office of a most perfect Sauiour of mankinde that either so hee must bee beleeued in and trusted vnto for that matter or else hee taketh himselfe antichristianlie robbed of that 〈◊〉 and glory that is due vnto him and therefore wil be no part of a sauiour at all to such That this is most true appeareth because it is writed that God is so iealouse of his owne honour and glory that hee wil not abide that any should therein bee pertaker with him or rob him of any ioâ—t therof Esay 42. that in him all thinges are already prepared Matthew the twenty two that his name is the onely name whereby commeth saluation Actes 4. that hee is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Reu. 1. that he is the authour finisher of our faith Heb. 12. that by one offering he hath consecrated for
ascended vp into heauen and sitteth on the right hande of his father Wherevnto I aunswere that we must heare his voice sounding by the mouth of his e True but there by straight is not ment yours which along time hath beene an impudent harlot Church which is the very true spouse of Iesus Christ QuaÌ„ sanctificauit mundans eam lauacro aquae in verbo vitae whom hee hath sanctified and purified with the bath of water in the worde of life vt exhiberet ipse sibi gloriosam ecclesiam non habentem maculam aut rugam to make it a glorious Church to himselfe without spot or wrinkle Ad Ephesios 5. f Thus you take for granted that your synagogue is this church of of Christ and that we haue departed from the church of Christ both which are most false If we hear the church we hear Christ for as the holy Bishop Martyr Irenaeus writeth in the forty Chapter of his thirde booke Vbi ecclesia ibi spiritus vbi spiritus dei illic ecclesia omnis gratia spiritus autem veritas where the Church is there is the spirit of God where the spirit of God is there is the Church al grace the spirit is truth Wherefore as the same godly father writeth in the forty and three Chapter of his fourth booke we be bounde to be obedient to the Prelates of the Church his qui successionem habent ab Apostolis to them that haue their succession from the Apostles Reliquos verò saieth hee qui absistunt a g This principall succession is succession in truth which you are gone from long agoe principali successione quocunue loco colliguntur suspectos habere quasi haereticos oportet As for all other that goe away from the g Which is in truth that which your synagogue long ago hath done principall succession wee ought to suspect them as heretickes These are Irenaeus wordes in the place nowe alleadged And Christ saieth himselfe Qui vos audit me audit Hee that heareth you heareth mee Wherefore if wee will heare Christ as his father hath commaunded vs Ipsum audite Heare him Matth. 17. then must wee heare the Church h These things are true of the true and pure church of Christ listening to and following the voice of her husband and not otherwise and therefore not of your synagogue The Church is our most holy Mother whom we ought to haue in great reuerence and to commit our selues wholly vnto her to heare her and like obedient children to doe what she biddeth vs. What the Church holdeth in matters of religion that must we holde what the Church prescribeth it is our duetie to followe what the Church forbiddeth that are we bound vnder paine of damnation to auoyde in any wise a Therefore is it that we dare not beleeue your Romish spirit because we trying it by the scriptures finde it contrary to the spirit that was author of them S. Iohn in the fourth Chapter of his first Epistle biddeth vs beware that wee beleeue not euery spirite but to trye the spirites whether they be of God or not Then how can they be of God which goe from the Church S. Augustine in the exposition of this Epistle of S. Iohn tractatu primo writeth thus b This you haue done therefore by his rule howe can you be in Christ Qui ecclesiam relinquit quomodo est in Christo qui in membris Christi non est Quomodo est in Christo qui in corpore Christi non est Hee that leaueth the Church hovv is hee in Christ that is not in the members of Christ how is he in Christ that is not in the body of Christ By the which S. Augustine affirmeth that the Church which is the spouse of Christ is also the misticall body of Christ Christ is the heade of the Church As many therefore as be Christ his sheepe they heare their shepheards voice in the Church They wil not heare the voice of strangers c You should haue exemplified in your owne doctors and theÌ„ had you said well as of Luther Oecolampadius Zuinglius Caluin and like heretikes which for all their gay wordes and crying still Christ and the Ghospel may haue euery one of theÌ„ these verses of Persius in his fift Satyre worthily spoken to him Pelliculam veterem retines fronte politus AstutaÌ„ vapido seruas sub pectore vulpem Thou keepest still thine olde hyde vppon thee and bearing a faire face thou wrappest a wyly foxe vnder thy vaporous brest d euen your popes and doctors for these many yeares Act. 20. These bee they of whome Saint Peter speaketh in the seconde Chapter of his seconde Epistle Magistri mendaces qui introducunt sectas perditionis Lying masters bringing in sectes of perdition and denying the God that bought them Howebeit since it is so as Paul sayeth There wil be alwaies rauening wolues non parcentes gregi not sparing the flocke And amoÌ„g our owne selues wil men arise speaking peruerse things And such is our fraile nature that as the wittie Horace sayeth e And therefore the Romish struÌ„pet holdes out her poyson in a golden Cup. Reu. 17. Decipimur specie recti We be soone deceiued vnder the colour of truth It behoueth vs to followâ— the counsel of our head principal master Iesus Christ which teacheth vs an excellent document of heauenly philosophy saying f And therefore we had neede to take heede of you Attendite vobis à falsis Prophetis take ye heede to your selues beware of false Prophets which come vnto you in vestimentis ouium in sheepes cloathing but inwardlie they are Lupi rapaces Rauening wolues We must I saie beware that we be not deluded and vnder colour of Euangelical varitie bee made to receaue pernitious and damnable heresies as alas the more pittie hath miserably chaunced to our noble Realme of g This is true of EnglaÌ„d in respect of Qu. Maries daies and so theÌ„ truly we might did say vnto you as you here now falsly say vnto vs. Englande vnder colour of bringing vs to truth leading vs await from the truth to the vtter decay of all godlines setting vp of counterâ—aite religion a Euen this is the state of your Church in deed The weede hath nowe overgrowen the corne euill hurtâ—ull and soulequelling weedes of heresie haue ouergrowen oppressed pulâ—d downe to the grounde and vtterly choked the good corne of christian â—eligion and all ecclesiasticall constitutions b Thus we say that iustly to our people in respect of you Al you therefore that haue â—een seduced and taken weeds for wholsome flowers beware least with the â—ench of such rotten weedes yee infect your soule to euerlasting damnatiâ—n The infallible truth is dayly opened vnto you c It doth not at all appeare by the discourse that there is any falshood at all in our Religion The falshoode is mightily
be trueths as fully and more fully then he or any of his side For proofe whereof cōsider that whereas the whole preface consists in the copie and edition that I had of his in print to aunswere of twenty two leaues hee spendes the first eight pages in prouing that Kinges Princes and rulers both ciuill and ecclesiasticall must carefullie administer iustice according to their callings and so bee as good shepherdes to them of whome they haue charge which who doubteth of or who euer denyed amongst vs yea we teaching as we do that Emperours Kings and Queenes in their kingdomes are carefully to looke to the keeping of both tables amongst their people and that they are next vnder God the supreme gouernours of their people aswel in causes ecclesiastical in commaunding for the good of the church and religion of Christ as in causes ciuill in commaunding for the common weale and the good estate thereof and they denying ciuil Magistrates any such authority in causes of the church doe not we far more fully then they teach them how and when they may be as good shepheards to their people Then by occasion of this former needlesse discourse hauing alleadged that Iohn 10. to proue that a good shepheard giueth his life for his sheepe and that Christ is that good sheepheard that knowes his sheepe and is knowen of them marke how in as many mo pages he inferreth that it is necessary that the sheepe know their shepheard that they heare his voice and geue no eare to the voice of a stranger and lastly that they follow and obey their shepheard which are things also truly taught and vnderstoode which we most gladly teach embrace and for lacke of which properties of Christes sheepe wee constantly hold aduouch that the Romish flocke these manie yeares hath rather beene a flocke of goates then of Christes true sheepe For if they knowe as they should that the name of the sheepheard Christ were the only name whereby commeth saluation Act. 4. and that in him all things are prepared already Math. 22. they would not set vp to themselues so many names of persons and thinges besides him nor hold that so many thinges besides those that are already prepared in him are left to thēselues and others to that ende to prepare as they doe And if they did so heare his voice and refuse to heare the voice of strangers as Christes sheepe ought there neither would nor could be so many strange doctrines yea contrary doctrines to the voice of Christ set downe in the Canonical scriptures receaued maintained amongst them as ear I haue done with Albine I shall shew there are Likewise such followers obeiers of the voice of Christ are they haue they beene for these 4. or 500. yeares speaking vnto them in his word writtē by the mouth of his true church aūcient sound pastours thereof as that none euer in a number of most weighty and materiall matters more directly contraried his voice then they Whither I haue iust ground and proofe for my thus saying I referre thee to that which I haue written in confutation of Albines discourse cap. 4.17.29 36. And yet such is the folly of this nameles preface wryter that hauing thus noted these to be the properties of Christs true sheepe as though by and by without any further proofe at all it ought of necessity to bee granted that he and his side had all these properties and that we of our side had neuer a one of them all but were notoriously branded with the contrary markes he triumpheth and insulteth ouer vs spending all the rest of his preface in railing vpon vs and in perswading his reader to forsake vs and to ioyne with him his So that all the rest of his preface is builded vppon a most shamefull and impudent begging of all these points that they know Christ aright heare his voice no other obey him and follow him most orderly and also of these that his begging of that former may seeme the more reasonable that their doctrine is sound hauing countenāce of al auncient holy fathers of the cōsent of al Christiā Regions prescription of time that their prelates are al prelates lawfully called hauing right succession euery thing that they should haue to credit them withal therefore that they are such as Christ hath commaunded to to be obeyed as himselfe and lastly that their church is the holie Catholike church the obedient spouse of Christ and mother of all the faithfull and that therefore it is damnation to depart frō her or to refuse to obey any of her lawes and ordinances that with vs all things are quite contrary All these things his reader must graunt him suppose to be true for he hath nothing at all to proue any one of these besides swelling words of vanity and lofty arrogant bragging that these things are so And therefore al these things being the things in question betwixt vs and such as we all most constantly and iustly haue alwaies denied as our writings of these points heretofore now this answere of mine in sundry places thereof make manifest to any indifferēt reader thereupon it must needes follow that whatsoeuer he hath alleadged either out of scripture or doctor to perswade his reader to obey their church their prelates their ordinances traditions is shamefully abused For compare the times when the persons whereof those things were written their doctrine and doings with these and you shall finde witnes the scriptures thēselues and all sound antiquity as much differēce betwixt their church prelates doctrine and ordinances and them of whom those places are to be truely vnderstoode as there is betwixt light and darkenesse the pure Church of Christ and the impure Synagogue of Antichrist And also all his exhortation vpon these grounds to ioine with them and all his bitter inuectiues against vs for refusing so to doe is as a building in the aire without all foundation And therefore is thus easilye pulde downe and laide vnderfoote as a thing more meete to bee trampled vpon as a thing of nothing then by any to bee at all regarded And yet as foule a fault as this is in him it is common to him with all wryters of his side and most notoriously with this Iohn de Albine before whose booke hee hath set this his preface It may bee seeing his author whom hee ment to publish and of whom he had such an opinion that hee accounted him a notable discourser against heresies to haue such a grace and dexterity in stuffing out his booke almost with nothing else but with this beggerly begging the maine questions alwaies that he thought his preface should not be suteable and fit to be set before such a learned discourse vnlesse it were garnished bewtified with the same popish grace And if this were his reason then which I am sure hee hath no better hee is to bee borne withall for what
but indeed truth they haue neither al nor any of these in that sort to speake for theÌ„ as he would make his Reader beleeue For first there is plaine contrariety betwixt their doctrine the doctrine of the auncient holy fathers in a number of most weighty points as I haue shewed at large ca. 17. 29. likewise in that both ther also c. 39. 40. in that I shew that they hold many things directly contrary to the ancient generall councels I plentifully proue that they are destitute of the commoÌ„ consent of ChristiaÌ„ regions And as for the last though it were graÌ„nted theÌ„ that they may truly preteÌ„d long continuaÌ„ce of time yet seing it is true that Tertullian de velandis virginibus hath said Quodcunque aduersus veritateÌ„ sapit heraesis est etiaÌ„ vetus coÌ„suetudo that is whatsoeuer sauoreth against the truth is heresy though it be an old custome seing also it is certaine that Cyprian ad PompeiuÌ„ saith custome must not let truth to preuaile for custoÌ„e without truth is but oldnes of error that could do theÌ„ litle good we being alwaies able as webe to proue by the scriptures souÌ„dly interpreted by al souÌ„d antiquity that they are gone loÌ„g agoe froÌ„ the trueth But in deed though popery be too ancieÌ„t so hath had soÌ„e coÌ„tinuaÌ„ce of time yet it is but a yongling in respect of that which they pretend And this I haue also proued cap. 17. in suÌ„dry other places of my answere following Yea that more is which will goe nearer then I haue proued that indeed we for our Religion Church haue not only prescription of some longtime but also of all times ages eueÌ„ froÌ„ the beginning c. 4.9 17. And yet this point of antiquity prescriptioÌ„ of time is a thing that they so coÌ„fideÌ„tly staÌ„d vpoÌ„ that in the offer annexed to Iohn de Albines book that proud chaleÌ„ger offreth to recaÌ„t if we caÌ„ shew where wheÌ„ in what yeare of the lord vnder what Emperor by whoÌ„ popery caÌ„e in by whoÌ„ of our side it was gain said which though I haue I hope sufficieÌ„tly shewed in the chapters last before quoted yet because the answe riÌ„gfully to this point the remouig of this obiectioÌ„ wil both bluÌ„t the edge of this his brag greatly crack the credit of popery I wil voutsafe soÌ„ewhat more here to set down to the coÌ„futatioÌ„ of it Hereunto therefore whereas the foresaid offerer and others of that side so stand vpon the antiquity of their Church and Religion that they would seeme we must needes grant that they are even as auncient as they pretend vnles we can shew when where by whoÌ„ a sodaine change froÌ„ our ReligioÌ„ to theirs was made that some of our side theÌ„ preseÌ„tly espied it withstood it vnreasonable it is that they demaunde For popery being not one or two particular heresies nor such a masse or heape of heresies whose property is to burst in all at once of the sodaine shewing it selfe with open and bare face at the first but as it is tearmed 2. Thess 2. a mistery of iniquity and therefore a false ReligioÌ„ creeping in cuÌ„ningly by litle litle as it were by stealing steps that hiddeÌ„ asmuch as might bee vnder the shew colour of holines through hypocrisy 1. Tim. 4. Reu. 13. v. 11. no maruaile though it were not only verie hard but euen impossible in euery respect to satisfie this demaunde And yet for al this were popery neuer a whit the more to be liked For as we see by experience that ostentimes there is far more daunger in those diseases that steale vppon a man by little and little and therefore are not resisted at the first then in those that are apparant and violent when they begin and therefore then are they more carefully withstoode and looked vnto euen so oftentimes also it falles out in errours and heresies that they of al other in the end proue the most dangerous whose beginnings haue beene most close and secret and whose growing to their perfection hath not been of the sodaine but in long tract of time Indeede those diseases that come vpon the sodaine and are violent in their fulnes at the first men at the first may espy and complaine of but so it is not not cannot be alwaies in the other We see also that though it be an easy matter to name the father of a lawfully begotten childe yet no man commonly can tell who is the father of the base sonne of a common woman But to make it yet more cleare that popery may be naught as it is yet this his demaunde be vnreasonable we are to cal to mind that Christ our sauiour who knew best how such most dangerous cankers and diseases would grow and come vp in his church hath taught vs Matth. 13. that it will not alwaies be knowen espied no not of his owne housholde seruants when and by whom first the tares are sowen in his field where he had before onely sowed good seede And there he showes vs that notwithstanding that it shall be sufficient to proue them tares in that afterwards wheÌ„ they are come vp they differ as they doe from the good seed Though therefore it were so that we could not tel when by whoÌ„ popery was first soweÌ„ in Gods field yet in that now it being growen vp therein as it is it being compared with gods good seede taken out of the garner or barne of his holy written word it differeth from it as it doth that ought to be sufficient proofe vnto vs that it is but tares of the deuils sowing by his deuilish seedsimeÌ„ whensoeuer they did it Doubtles the creeping of it in not all at once but by little and litle that with such soft sly paces the shew of holines deuotion that it hath stolen in vnder the trouble that the holy ancient fathers had in their times otherwise in confuting grosse heresies that shewed themselues such at the first and the small suspition if they had marked the beginnings hereof that were in their times that they could haue had that euer they would haue â—rowen to this that they are now haue beene so many great and â—peciall causes why the first beginnings thereof haue beene no more noted resisted then they haue beene Againe this I must â—eeds further say that it may yet very wel be that the beginning proceeding also thereof haue beene both better obserued withstood by the ancieÌ„t fathers in the primatiue church theÌ„ appeareth now vnto vs in their bookes monuments for in these parts of the world in these last 4 or 500 yeares they so raigning â—yraÌ„nizing as they did they hauing their books in their keeping â—heir care and diligence being as it was by al meanes possible to maintaine their own credit very likely is it that as they met with any thing to
that end they haue fouÌ„d the means to suppresse â—ase it out of their writings Infinite proofes and examples there â—e they know wel inough to enduce any maÌ„ to think that loue of their owne cause hatred of the truth would easily prouoke them in this case to be thus bold with their labours For in all stories since their kingdome grew to the ful not onely from time to â—ime it is noted that if God raised vp any as he did alwaies some â—s I haue shewed cap. 4. to speake write against their corruptions they tooke straight such order that if not both the men and their bookes yet at least their bookes should be burned and consumed And they that haue had when the times were far better three popes one after an other so bolde impudent thorowe an ambitious desire then of primacy to forge a false counterfaite canon of the councel of Nice and to vrge it in the opeÌ„ face of an other great famous councell of Carthage when notoriâ—ously their forgery was espied therefore they plainly tolde of it by epistles writteÌ„ vnto theÌ„ by that councel of purpose no marvel though when they had attained their ful desire of an vniuersal supremacy they durst do and did whatsoeuer they thought good to let as few monuments of antiquity remaine any way to their discredit as might be HeÌ„ce I am fully persuaded that in great part it coÌ„meth that we finde so litle as we do to bewray their beginning proceeding and the withstanding thereof in the writings of ancieÌ„t fathers Croniclers And yet though we fouÌ„d in theÌ„ far lesse then we do I say againe that thence ariseth no reason to iustifie the popish church or religion for is there any reason that a ship that is drowned by leaking a maÌ„ that is dead by a consumptioÌ„ a coÌ„moÌ„ weale that is growen froÌ„ a moderate and wel ordered gouernment to an absolute tyranny should be said to be safe in health aliue in good state because we cannot tell wheÌ„ where the ship began first to leake the maÌ„ began first to fall into his consumption and when the common weale began first to grow out of order Likely enough also is it that the great credit that the ancient bishops of Rome were in for their piety and godlinesse and the lofty estate of their successours afterwarde so dazeled on the one side the eyes of the godly in ancient time that they were not curious in resisting the doings of their successours and so bridled on the other side the tongues of the worldly minded of these latter dayes that they durst not write that which they saw all which reasons layd together make it euident that it ought to be no wonder nor yet any argument any whit at all to credit popery though this offerers demaunde could not be satisfied Howbeit this onely I haue written to shew the vnreasonablenesse of this demaunde for indeede Gods name be praysed for it hovv vnreasonable soeuer it be otherwyse vvee are able sufficiently to aunswere it For Paul hath tolde vs that this mystery of iniquity was vvorking in his dayes 2. Thes 2. vers 7. And so indeed it vvas in that euen then first their were false Apostles that laboured to corrupt the article of free and full saluation through the onely meanes and merytes of Christ Iesus teaching that it vvas necessary to saluation for them that beleeued in Christ also to bee circumcysed as it appeares Actes 15. and Gal. 5. and after that there vvere such as hereupon grew a step further namely to vrge the necessity of the obseruing of humane traditions as Touch not tast not handle not so making a shew of humblenesse of minde in worshipping of Angels and of voluntary religion in not sparing their bodies in obseruing hereof against all vvhich Saint Paul standes foorth in the places before quoted also in the second of the Colossians This damnable errour also vvas considered of and confuted in that famous Apostolike councell Actes 15. And amongst others Saint Iohn also sharpely rebuketh and condemneth the teachers of this Antichristian doctrine calling them very Antichrists and such as vvere gone out from them that so it might appeare that they were neuer of them Epist 1. Cap. 2. â—ers 18.19 And therefore as I shew Cap. 17. the church of Christ and the teachers therein vniuersally for six huÌ„dred years after Christ and more taught directly against ioining any person or thing vvith Christ in the office of iustifying and saâ—ing though now there is nothing more vsuall in the Roâ—ish church that nowe is then to teach other merites and â—atisfactions in these respects to be trusted vnto besides Christs The next Capitall poynt of Antichristianity is the nowe chalâ—enged supremacy of the Romane prelate and as for that we can â—hew both the beginning and proceeding thereof from time to â—ime and who alwaies set themselues against it The first â—mbitious clyming that way we may note in the mother of Zeâ—edeus children and her two sonnes who comming vnto Christ â—equire this of him that the one may sit at his right haÌ„d the oâ—her at his left in his kingdome and that vvas spyed to bee a â—owle fault in them by Christ and therefore by him they are â—hecked and vvithstood Matth. 20. After we read of one Diotrephes that so loued the prehemineÌ„ce that he would not receiue Iohn and such as hee was but in his third epistle vers 9. he shewes he spied him and that he did vtterly dislike that arâ—ogant ambitious humor of his yet by these warnings your bishops of Rome would not take heede but for al this would take to much vpon them ouer their brethren but when either they or others haue done so it appeares in ancient Cronicles and in the writings of the ancient fathers that they had alwayes some that did spie it and set themselues against it For when Victor bishop of Rome about the yeare of Christ two hunderd somewhat popelike so farre exceeded his bounds that he tooke vpon him to excommunicate the bishops of the East for that they would not conforme themselues to the fashion of the church of Rome in the keeping of Easter not onely Polycrates and sundry other bishops there vvithstoode him therein out here in the west Irenaeus bishop then of Lions though he were of Victors minde for the obseruing of Easter yet in his ovvne name and in the name of his brethren wrote to Victor in that his letter rebukes him for his so far proceeding as you may reade in Euseb lib. 5. cap. 22. and 23. And after this in Cyprians time about the yeare 255. when Cornelius Bishop of Rome vnaduisedly coÌ„trary to the good policy of the church and after him Stephanus tooke vpon them so to admitte of fugitiues out of Africke at Rome that not only they receaued them into their communion but tooke vpon them to labour their restitution they being before for
the picture of Iesus or sōe of the Saints yet he cōdemneth it as contrary both to the scriptures and Christian Religion therefore perswades him not to suffer any such thing any more for it became him to banish such superstition which was vnseemely for the Church of Christ Yea Lactantius lib. 2 cap. 19. of his diuine institutions saieth flatly that their can be no Religion where there is an image he liued florished in the yeare 320. And S Augustine who liued after al these before named for he died not before the yeare 430. de consensu Euangelistarum lib. 1. cap 2. writeth that they euen deserue to erre which seeke Christ and his Apostles not in bookes but in painted wals Yea Gregory the great as they cal him Bishop of Rome though thē the painting of stories for an ornamēt of the church was thought tolerable yet he lib. 7. Epist 109. lib. 9. Epist 9. to Serenus slatly cōdemneth the adoring worshipping of images And whereas by occasiō of this tolerating of historicall painting of them through the superstition corruption of mans nature within short time by litle litle the worshipping of thē grew to be too much vsed liked of many especially in these Westerne parts of the Bishops of Rome thēselues by the yeare of Christ 700. the Emperour Leo the third in a coūcell held at Constantinople consisting of 330. Bishops there with the consent of that coūcell decreed that they should be quite remoued out of churches burnt seuerely he punishes those which notwithstanding would perseuere in the worshipping of them And the same course tooke his successour Constantine by another great coūcell held their ratifying the former two Emperours more succeeding him notwithstāding al this while the Bishops of Rome with stood thē what they might decreed as fast for the retaining worshipping of thē as they could as it appeares in Sigebert Blōdus others Howbeit though also in the time of Irene the nonage of her sonne Constātine in the east through the suggestiō of Therasius Bishop of Constantinople they got there a councell helde at Nicea consisting of three hūdreth fifty Bishops where to currie fauour againe with the Bishops of Rome who vpō the former occasiō as it appears in Sigebert others had bene a shrewd traiterous meanes to cause these westerne parts to reuolt frō the empire they decreed according to their humour for the honour of images Yet Africk Asia the greater could neuer be brought to receiue those canōs there made yea that more is though by that time the Pope had made Charles the great very much beholding to him in being the means to trāslate the empire of the west vnto him so were those canōs in this point misliked cōtradicted here in thes western parts that a coūcel in his time by his meās as the Emperour being called at Francford whereunto came many Bishops of Italy Frāce Germāy other cūtries yet there euē for this point was that coūcel of Nice reiected cōdēned as a wicked councell witnes both Regino lib. 2. anno 794. also one Hinckmare not lōg after those times Archbishop of Rhemes writing against another of his name thē Bishop of Iandune or Lauedune as some cal it ca. 20. where he for further proofe of this to be true writeth that the Bishops their assembled caused a booke of purpose to be writen sent to Rome cōteining at large a cōfutatiō of al the reasons vsed for images at Nicea which in his yoūg yeares he saw which the keeper of the Popes library Augustine Steuchus cōfesses to lie there writē in anciēt caracters de donatione Constantini lib. 2. cap. 59. nu 60. And Roger Houodē who liued 400. years ago in his cōtinuatiō of Bedeas story in the year 792. shewing how Charles sēt the canōs of that coūcel of Nice hither wherin as he saith it was decreed that images ought to bee adored which the church of God vtterly detesteth reports that one Albirus here wrote an epistle against that determinatiō maruelously grounded vpō the scriptures which he caried into France as he saith in the name of our Bishops by occasion whereof the rather it should seeme shortly after Charles thought meete to call the foresaid coūcell at Francford All these things notwithstanding neuer were images pillers and crosses more idolatrously decreed to be worshipped their nor euer were idols more grosly adored of heretiques or the very pagans and heathen then they haue bene yet be of superstitious Papists For they crouch kneele vnto them present offerings before them they run a pilgrimage vnto them and teach that they are to be worshipped with that honour that is due vnto them whose images and monuments they be though in an other manner not for their owne sakes but for theirs whose remembrances they be But indeed if in worshipping of them they did not principally respect the Images themselues why should there not be as great deuotion as many pilgrimages as great offerings presented yeelded to the image of Christ Mary or of any other aswell in one place as in an other Well howsoeuer they will do wickedly herein and when they haue done seeke to colour the matter such in truth all the worlde sees herein hath beene their dealing that Euthymius in his panoply had neuer more cause to name the Armenians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Idolaters to the crosse for their grosse and superstitious worshipping of it then we haue generally to count and call the Romanists flat idolaters for their behauiour towards it and other images also Thus then hoping by this that I haue said cōcerning this point that not onely thou maiest see goodreader when and how this point of popery first came in but how and by whom it hath beene oppugned but consequently also that the Romish church is herein destitute both of scripture fathers consent of Christian regions and al that she bragges of let vs see if wee can shew the like concerning the other point of forced single life vpō the clergy which she holds to be so necessary and holy an ordinance as that by no meanes without deadly sin it may be transgressed Euen in this as in the former if we search the monumentes of antiquity well we shal finde that they haue very auncient heretiques to be their first fathers leaders For the Tacianists commonly cald Encratites of their abstinence from mariage certaine other thinges who began about the yeare one hundred forty two were great condemners of mariage as appeares in Aug. ad Quodvult Deum in Epiphanius writing of them Heresi 46. After them spronge vp the Manichees who in like manner were enemies to mariage but not so vniuersally as the former for they permitted it to others and restraine onely their clergy from it whō they calde their elect as August witnesseth of them Epist 74. but indeed as many as
that they come to them by the ordinary way by right succession of Bishops and pastours continuing in one Catholicke faith downe from Christ to this present time thus childishly begging in one piece of one short sentence these foure great points all which in this case are betwixt vs and them in question namely that their officers all of them come to their roomes by the ordinary way that they haue right succession right Bishops and pastours and sounde and Apostolicke doctrine And yet though he knew well enough that wee constantly deny all these yet to proue that they come lawfully to their offices hee onely nakedly and barely affirmeth them as though he presumed that he was and should be such a Pythagoras in the conceit of all his Readers that for him once to say it were enough and enough againe For by and by after that thus he had onely saied hauing vsed neither proofe nor colour of proofe to backe his saying hee slippeth into another matter not yet called in question Whither a visible knowen and alwaies a demonstrable personall and locall succession of Bishops pastours be necessary for the perpetuall continuāce of the Church and preseruatiō of the trueth therin And thus hee windeth frō matter to matter leauing alwaies that vnproued which hee had most neede to haue proued labouring sweating continually about the proofe of that which though it were graūted him yet he might wel enough loose his cause As for example hauing entred into the foresaid matter in maner before saied in 3. or 4. whole Chapters following he shewes how the trueth is continued in the Church by succession of pastours how profitable their ministry is to bring men to to settle them in the truth that the anciēt trodē way by Christs sheepe downe from Christ to this day that the ancient Catholicke faith that the faith which in Irenaeus and Augustines time was helde and taught at Rome had vnto their times beene continued from Christ by succession of Bishoppes and pastours is the waie and faith that a Catholicke man must liue and die in whosoeuer saieth to the contrary In which propositions no maruaile though he goe on roundly for he hath winde and weather with him none of vs gainesaies him yea these things being rightly vnderstoode wee constantly affirme and teach the same But these things being all graunted him what is hee nearer his cause seeing as yet all the sort of them neuer could nor shall bee able to proue that their pastours succeed Christ his Apostles or the ancient holy Bishops pastours that were before Irenaeus Avgustines time in teaching the same doctrine that they taught But herein is his popish subtlely that standing thus vpō these points he would haue his Reader graūt him all these that their successiō of Priests Bishops is that successiō of pastours so profitable for the continuāce of the trueth and Church that their Romish Religion that now is is that ancient way that Christs sheepe haue alwaies trod so the ancient Catholicke Religiō which in Irenaeus Augustines time they the holy pastours Bishops at Rome and else where had soundly succeeding one another from the Apostles continued in vnto that time which are things whereof not one the Pope and all his confederates shall euer be able indeede to proue and therefore it seemeth Iohn de Albine thought it good policy seeing these thinges could be got no otherwise to trie whether he could get them thus by flatte begging of them And it seemeth also that hee presumed that hee should come onely to such liberall mens dores that all these should be graūted and giuen him euen at the very first asking for alwaies after he behaues himselfe in such sort as that without all peraduenture he had them all graunted him Onely a little in his thirty seuēth Chapter belike somewhat growing ashamed of his shamelesse begging al the while before he begins to make shew that if men should be so hard harted as to deny him that their pastours doctrine and Church are sound Catholicke that he is able to proue them so to bee whither such will or no. And yet euen there when all comes to all though indeede hee bragge that he could and would but for being too tedious to his Reader iustify the rest of their doctrine by the testimony of a number of doctours holy confessours and martyrs he onely by mustering of a sort of dumbe doctours vpon the stage makes his poore Reader beleeue that in the places quoted by him they speake directly to iustify their ceremonies their Auricular Confession praier for the dead and to the dead as though these were the principall matters in controuersy betwixt them and vs. But doubtles hee knew well enough that no one of his Readers amongst an hundred would and could turne the places and so try whither the men he name make there so for him or no. For otherwise for shame he would not haue quoted them so negligently falsely and corruptly as when I come to that place I shall shew thee hee hath These thinges considered Christian Reader thou must bee very simple and haue before hand thy minde wholy forestalled with his false principles or else hee shall winne with thee little credit to his cause or disgrace to ours Howbeit seeing both his whole drift and his publishers in his preface was as it euidently thereby appeares vnder the odious names of heretiques and schismatiques to disgrace vs and the trueth that wee professe as though it were not once to be called in questiō whither they and their crue were the onely sound Catholickes and Christians in the world before I let thee proceede come to the view of his declamation made to that ende and of my answere thereunto this vpon good and most cleare ground I protest vnto thee and assure thee what brags soeuer he or any other of his fellows make of their popish and Romish Religion that now is prosessed amongst them besides all other things that can or may be saied against it it is such a Religion and their Church the vpholder thereof such a dame as is the very nurse and baude of monstrous impietie as is intolerably iniurious to the right of the good estates of all Christian Princes and their people and as lastly howsoeuer it may seeme to carry a shew of holinesse it is not so but indeede cunningly vnder the colour thereof aymeth at no marke more then to aduaunce the pride pompe and gaine of her louers The first is euident in that their doctrine of their Popes supermacy is such as that for money hee may pardon any sinne as their practise teacheth either committed or to be committed yea their verie Hedge-priestes by the authority of the power of absolution giuen vnto them vpon penaunce done how light soeuer if it so seeme good vnto them haue and doe take vpon them marueilously that way to breede immunity and impunity by their absoluing whom for
and his Priests and by the rest to set vp themselues in the very seat of Antichrist They pretend the glory of Christ and of Peter and Paul in the doctrine of the supremacy but it is the feeding of their owne pompous tyraÌ„nous ambition that in trueth they seeke in it In their swarmes of Monkeries Frieries they pretend wilfull pouerty and an vtter forsaking of the world and yet all the world seeth that to maintaine themselues therein in idlenes belly-cheare and al kinde of worldly and carnal pleasure they had houses like Princes and reueÌ„nues maintenaunces like great Lordes of the worlde They haue pretended that they vvould haue Emperours and Kinges in no case to giue Bishoprickes and benefices to preuent Simony whereas their practise hath made it cleare that their Popes haue taken that into their owne hands but to make the clergy more to stand at their deuotion and lesse at their Princes and that they theirs might vse that occupation and trade of Simony as most proper vnto themselues They pretende charity and compassion in their pardons and indulgences deuotion and care to relieue soules by their masses dirges and trentals and an intent to fray meÌ„ froÌ„ sinne by their doctrine of Purgatory but euery maÌ„ seeth that it is onely money or money worth that hereby they fish for The vnity of the church is pretended when they seeke to establish most their owne tyraÌ„ny the honour and glory of the church they say they seeke when it is most plaine that it is onely their ovvne glory and honour they care for In the maintenaunce of their doctrine of transubstantiation they vvould seeme marueilous deuout and religious in vrging of the letter and in captiuing their ovvne sences and reason thereunto whereas indeede that course they take that so their Priestes may grovve to honour and vvealth vvhiles thereby the people are made beleeue that they can make and offer their redeemer for the saluation of quicke and deade Deuotion to the Saints they pretend in teaching that they are to bee prayed vnto and vvorshipped but therein their deuotion is like vnto Demetrius his for Diana of Ephesus for if it were not for the gaynes they get by offerings vnto their shrynes they vvould not bee so hoate therein Their doctrine of penaunce caries a shevv of mortification but it is but thereby to triumph ouer the people at their pleasures and in the ende to make a gaine by changing their penaunce or by making them to beleeue that they vvill relieue them by their prayers pardons and masses To conclude I dare bee bolde to say that there is neuer a proper point of popery but the practise and profession of it would quickly grow very cold if that the maintenance thereof made not either directly to aduaunce their wordly credit with their followers or their lucre and commodity And therefore thou maiest see euen by this whatsoeuer they bragge of their Church and Religion that euen for these three reasons they both of euery wise state consequently also of thy selfe Christian Reader ought to be shunned and auoided These things then that I haue saied well considered and remembred I will now no longer detaine thee from taking a view of that which this notwithstanding Albine hath writeÌ„ either in the defence of this his Religion or to the disgrace of ours requesting onely this at thy hands that as thou goest thou wouldest take the paines without partiality to reade and confer that which I haue writen to answere him withall Chapter by Chapter with his booke And thus hoping that thou wilt doe I commend thee and thy study therein to the direction and good protection of God my selfe vnto thy harty praiers vnto him in my behalfe Thine in the Lord THOMAS SPARKE A Notable discourse plainely and truely discussing who be the right ministers of the Catholique Church writen against Caluin and his disciples by one Master Iohn de Albine called de Seres Archdeacon of Tolossa in France Duaci per Iohannem Bellerum 1575 The first Chapter CALVIN your Patriarch doth lay to our charge a great and an outragious boldnesse saying according to his opinion that we haue introduced or taken in hand the ministery of Iesus Christ without being called to it by him that did institute Aaron in the saied estate And because that he himselfe can better then I expresse his coÌ„plaint or accusation I thinke it best to set forth his owne writings which according to his disciples opinions are of great force vertue His words as you may read are these Seeing that the Papists heare S. Paul say Jn his booke of Jnsti cap. 18. Art 58. Hebr. 5. that no person ought to take vpon him or vsurpe the name and the honour of Priesthood but he that is called to it as Aaron was And that Iesus Christ tooke it not vpon himselfe but did obey the vocation of his father either they ought to shew that God is the Author and institutour of their priesthood or els they must confesse that they are not called of God seeing that of their owne boldenes they haue taken it in hande These are Caluins wordes by the which the reader may gather that Caluin doth enioyne vs to render him an accoumpt of our vocation And although that it be so L Si quis ad si ad leg Jul. de nil publ c. that by the Ciuill law one ought to try the right of the possession before he come to demauÌ„de it the spoyle as we are to him and his fellowes as touching our Temples and reueÌ„nues in many places ought to be restored againe before the suite proceede Yet releasing this that the law doeth alowe vs we are content to answere to his demaunde adding this request thereto that both you that are his disciples and he doe make readie your papers to answere vs the like as touching yours But before I proceede in mine answere vnder correction of a man that thinkes to haue such good eies me seemeth that his argument is but very simple to say that if we cannot shew that God is the authour of our Priesthoode that we should be constrained to confesse that it is not of God a Sophistry in taking that as spoken of your maner of calling to your Priesthood which he spoke of the Priesthoode it selfe Numb 16. 2. Paâ—al 26. seeing that without being called we take it vpon vs. For what reason is there I pray you in this for although it were so that of our owne priuate power and authority without being called wee should take it vpon vs it should not follow by that that it is not of God For by that reason one might say that God was not the authour of the priesthoode of Aaron seeing that Dathan Abyron and Ozias tooke it vpon them of their owne boldnes the which is not true And as touching this that he sayeth that our order of Priesthood is not of God we will proue that false
I cannot deny but that I finde all these and the Churches vnder them still charged to holde errours and heresies but this then withall I infer the more true that it is and hath beene thus with them the more euident it is of what small acount this personall and locall succession is of it selfe either to giue credit to Bishops and Pastours or their religiō that can plead that And this further I adde if these be sufficient causes to make their alleadged succession to be of no valew then there is as great cause why succession bragged on so much by the Romanists should be reiected as a thing not worth the naming For not onely in inferiour places of Bishops and Priestes which is a thing that they will not striue with vs about it is so manifest that there haue beene many heretiques amongst them but also euen in their line of Popes who as some of them hold cannot erre there haue bene sundry heretiques also For Tertullian contra Praxeam writeth of a Bishop of Rome that did allow of the Prophesies of Montanus as he saieth therefore sent letters of communion to the Churches of Asia and Phrigia thereabout And Athanasius in his epistle ad solitariam vitam agentes and so also Damasus in the life of Liberius and Hierō de ecclesiasticis scriptoribus testifie that Pope Liberius was drawen in the ende to subscribe to Arianisme And Honorius died an heretique as it is to be seene in the first general councel Act. 12. 13. c. Liberatus also Breuiarii Cap. 22. witnesseth that Vigilius in secret fauoured heretiques Anastasius the second fell into a condemned heresie as we read Dist 19. Cap. Anastasius and therefore would haue restored Accatius a condemned heretique And yet I say nothing of Pope Iohn 23. condemned for an heretique by the councell of Cōstance the schole of Paris for denying in effect the immortality of the soule Yea the euidence of the trueth in this point is so open and strong that it hath caused their owne frends to condemne them of grosse flattery that holde that Popes haue not and cannot fall into heresie as any man may see that will read Alphonsus contra haereses lib. 1. Cap. 2. 4. Lyra vpon the 16 of Matth. and the third Synodall Epistle of the councell of Basill And that the Romish Church doeth now holde as grosse and palpable errours and heresies as they charge these withall if I proue not ere I haue done with Albine I will neuer craue credit either to our ministers or to our Churches and cause Wherfore to leaue the proofe of this to his place or places to goe on with that which I haue vndertooke to proue against them concerning this their brag of right succession whereas thirdly I saied that though we were not able to deduce or deriue downe from the Apostles wtout interruption any locall and personall succession vnto our Ministers that now bee yet as long as ours teach and our people embrace the same doctrine that they taught wee are well enough whatsoeuer they say to the contrary that resteth onely now in this case to be proued But before I come to the proofe of this least in this my assertion I be mistaken I would first that it were marked that I speake but by way of supposition that is if we were not able to set downe a continued line downe from them to vs without any interruption for in the 4. Chapter following I hope I shall set downe such a descent of our Church from them to vs as whereby it may sufficiently appeare that there was neuer age nor time since but our Church and religion hath had her teachers and hearers Secondly I would haue it also vnderstoode that my meaning is though it were so that wee could not make recitall or demonstration of any such descent or succession in that processe of time distance of place and the force and subtlety of our enemies kept vs from knowing their names persons and places that yet for the continuance of the trueth and the Church of Christ amongst men I constantly holde and beleeue that there hath beene a continuall and vninterrupted succession of teachers and embracers of GODS trueth whereof his Church consistes euen from the first beginning thereof and shall bee to the ende Onely this is it that thereby I am contented bee insinuated that the Churches of Christ if they can proue that they are taught by such ministers as God doeth raise vp vnto them according vnto his good pleasure whither ordinarily or extraordinarily and that they embrace no other doctrine but that which Christ and his Apostles taught witnes the canonicall scriptures that then they are to be accounted Apostolike and holy Churches of God and that in such a case especially in and after great persecutiōs ruines long oppressions of their mēbers children they neede not to be daunted nor discouraged neither in respect of their ministers and teachers nor in respect of their doctrine though they cannot be able lineally to name the persons either by whom their ministers downe from the Apostles haue had their vocation deriued vnto them or else by whom euer since that trueth hath beene continued For howsoeuer in visible Churches of GOD whiles they stande in florishing or vnoppressed state and condition by the fury of persecutours there is a set order and forme visibly to bee obserued in the vocation of Church ministers in respect of which estates and times it is easie for them that liue therein or within the knowledge and remembrāce thereof to make demonstration of the lyne of succeson yet when in the iust iudgement of God the Churches shall bee oppressed as now a long a time they haue beene vnder the tyranny of Antichrist then and after such a time such a thing growes to many not onely harde but also impossible And in such tymes wee finde that the Lorde of his wisedome and power to continue yet his Church rayseth vp men though not by the ordinary way vsed in the former tymes as after the dispersion of the Church at Hierusalem by meanes of the persecution there when Stephen was stoned we reade that the Disciples beeing dispersed and namely with them Philip the Deacon that hee preached the Apostles not aware thereof for any thing that appears so vnder Cōstātine Antonius the heremite taught at Alexandria and vnder Valens Aphraates Flauianus and Iulianus at Antioch beeing then but Monkes who in those dayes were not so much as counted amongst Clarkes as wee reade in Nicephorus libro 11. Chap. 15. These thinges thus premised thereby not onely my meaning shall rightly bee conceiued but also that which I haue saied in some sort is already confirmed But my reason indeede is that true and sounde apostolicke doctrine in the good prouidence of God towards his Church opened and continued in the same though by men not comming to their places of teaching by the ordinary way alwayes but sometimes somewhat
suffering their Croniclers to mention them or else in causing them to deface them with strange name and false slaunders maketh it very hard yea if impossible no marueile you hauing the euidences whereby we should doe it for the most part a long time in your owne keeping to vse at your owne pleasure for vs to name from time to time the places and persons that haue alwaies succeeded one another for the continuance of our faith and Church But to returne againe to the consideration of this place of the Canticles further I saie as I saied before that you erre in alleadging this or any other place of the Scripture to proue that the Church of Christ may safely account those flockes in possession of the trueth and therefore to bee followed and those sheepheardes true sheepheardes and therefore meete alwaies to bee consented vnto that lineally downe from Christ can deduce their personall succession For so as I haue shewed in the first Chapter and it is not denyed of your selues sundry heretiques in their times haue done and can doe still If therefore you say you meane still that flocke and those sheepheardes that together with their visible personall succession haue alwaies beene in possession of the true ancient faith I answere first you begge still the thing in question in supposing that to haue beene alwaies ioyned with your flockes and sheepheards which we say and are able to proue they fell from many hundreth yeares ago Secondly I tell you once againe and now this time for all that you shall neuer bee able to proue but that both that personall succession may bee separated from trueth and also trueth from it and that therefore it is neither a certaine meanes to knowe the trueth nor the Church of Christ by Thirdly for your collection out of this place for the iustifying of your Church before ours because as you say from time to time for this thousand and fiue hundreth yeares you can shew the descent and continuance of yours and we cannot of ours for one hundreth yeares no not beyonde the yeare one thousand fiue hundreth and seuenteene we affirme that both in the one and in the other herein you write vntruely For first if your Church as it is now either in respect of the doctrine or gouernement thereof bee compared with the ancient Roman Church in the Apostles times or for many hundreth yeares after there is such diuersitie betwixt the one and the other as that the one beeing founde the chast spouse of Christ the other must needes bee proued to bee the very whoar of Babylon The simplicity of the ministerie that then was is turned amongst you into a pompous Lordly and more then Princely prelacy And then the Church was fedde with the pure worde of God conteyned in the Scriptures and so ledde thereby perfectly to vnderstand the will of God and with you as carefullie as may bee that is kept from her and in steede thereof shee is fedde with the dreames inuentions and traditions of men Then she was taught to account the name of Christ the onelie name whereby commeth saluation Act. 4. and therefore that in him all thinges were prepared Math. 22. and now with you besides him Saintes Angels your owne merites and the merites of others satisfaction in this life by your selues and after by others with a number of baser things must ioyne with him in the office of intercession betwixt vs and God and in the most glorious worke of our saluation as though hee either could not or would not go perfectly through with the worke of our saluation in himselfe and by himselfe but had so begunne it as that the accomplishing and perfecting thereof were left to these vaine and foolish by-meanes Then her faithfull doctours and teachers taught her that Christ in saying Hoc est corpus meum this is my body meant that it was a signe figure of his body as you may reade in Augustine against Adimantus the Maniche cap. 12. and in Tertull. against Marcion cap. 4. and in infinite places elsewhere in the ancient fathers and now contrary to nature yea to the verie nature of a sacrament contrary to the analogie of faith and good manners yours teach that those wordes being vttered by your Priestes thereupon followeth such a transubstantiation of the bread into his bodie that whosoeuer receiueth the outward parte of that sacrament receiueth in by his mouth the naturall bodie of Christ If thus I were disposed to go a long as farre as I might and to leade the reader to a full view of the difference betwixt the Romish Church that nowe is and that which hath beene I should euen therewith make a great booke But further of these differences I haue noted as you may reade Chapter 19. 20. and else where in this booke And Doctor Fulke against Stapletons Fortresse hath noted out of Bede and other authours of good credit 50. differences betwixt the church of the English Saxons in the time of Augustine the monke who was 600. yeares after Christ at the least and the Popish church that now is and infinite be the differences then betwixt the Church before in her puerer times and the Popish Synagogue now And therefore whatsoeuer you bragge neither you nor all your fellowes shall euer be able to proue indeede that your personall succession hath beene ioyned with the continuance of one and selfesame doctrine of Christ vnto these daies And to come to the other point therein I saie you write vntruely also For so far of is it that we graunt Luther to haue beene the first that preached the Gospell that wee now embrace and that wee cannot shewe by whom and where it was preached and receaued before that there is nothing more common with vs in answering this your obiection of newnes then to tell you that so farre of is it that it is newe indeede that it is the very ancient Religion and Gospell taught both in the olde testament and newe and therefore though it grieue you wee tell you that the ancient Patriarches and Prophets Christ and his Apostles taught the verie same and no other and all the ancient doctours and fathers as farre forth as they were able to iustify that which they taught by the Scriptures were sheepheardes of our church and teachers of our Religion Indeede we confesse that as Hilkiah the Priest in Iosiahs time 2. King 22. found the booke of God and was so a meanes to bring those thinges to light that by the wicked proceedings of Manasses Amon and others had for a certaine season lien hid So Luther in these late daies was a singuler instrument of God to reuiue and bring to light diuerse pointes of Christian faith which your Antichristian Synagogue had long laboured to smother and hide from the eies of the Church And yet hereupon it no more followeth that he was the first that preached our Religion then vpon the former it followed that Hilkiah was then first the
meanes to preach the lawe of God And I tell you truely that I cannot maruaile yet sufficientlie that anie man of anie reason iudgement and learning as you would seeme to bee should be so farre past all shame as confidently to set downe in print that wee cannot deny but that Luther 1517. began first our Church and Religion that we can name none 100. or 200. yeares before that taught it when you cannot be ignorant vnlesse your ignorance be verie grosse that we name vnto you verie manie and that in all ages to haue beene of the same Religion and Church that wee are now of For first there is nothing more vsuall with vs then to tell you that all the ancient Patriarches Prophets Euangelists and Apostles witnesse the canonicall Scriptures liued and died in our Church and Religion The same opinion wee tell you wee haue of all the Christian martyrs whose number is infinite that were slaine in the first 300. yeares after Christ vnder the 10. bloudy persecutions that were in that time For during that time our Religion was onelie professed and embraced in the Church and verie little or nothing was there of those opinions for the which especiallie wee account your Religion Antichristian vnlesse it were of heretiques and such as had learned it of them in those daies once thought of And after for three hundreth yeares more at least in all the most substantiall pointes of Christian Religion and the greatest questions betwixt vs and you all the ancient doctours and the Christians that liued in their times as wee haue diuerse times sayed so haue wee often so proued it that you shall neuer bee able therein to disproue vs were fully ours And though after these times when Boniface the third had once obteined of that traiterous murderer Phocas the Antichristian title of Oecumenicall or vniuersall Bishop the mysterie of iniquity did euery day work more plainelie then other hasted to his height yet as I haue shewed in my answere to your publishers preface and in the sixteenth Chapter of this my answere to your selfe where you bragge againe as you doe here of 1500. yeares antiquity and continuance there were after these times from time to time that both spied the growth and proceeding thereof and set themselues against it For Bertram Iohannes Scotus were with vs against your grosse real presēce aboue 700. years ago Trithemius maketh mētion of a booke writen 400. yeares ago which is supposed was writen by one Arnulphus for as Sabellicus and Platina testifie much about that time was hee put to death of the Romish cleargie in which booke the authour grieuously complaineth of the enormities amongst the saied Cleargie and findeth many faultes in the Romish Church Gisburne also in his storie writeth that in the yeare 1158. Dulcinus Nauarensis and Gerrhardus preached earnestly that the Pope was Antichrist and that they had thirtie followers whom they brought into England who were persecuted then here for preaching that and other such like doctrine against the Romish Church Much about this time but somewhat rather before a company of Christians who by your Prelates were nickenamed Albigenses did florish and there were great multitudes of them euen about Tholossa whereof you Master Albine are called Archdeacō who did vehemently resist your Pope and his proceedings setting vp vnto themselues a Bishop whom they called Bartholomew oppugning the grosse pointes of your Religion euen as wee doe witnesse Nicolas Triuet and others in their Stories Hildegarde though shee were a Nunne yet in the yeare 1146. prophesied the ruine of your kingdome at Rome and bitterly inueighed against the wickednesse of your Cleargie and Friers So did Geffery Chaucer about the same time namely in his Dialogue called Iacke Vpland very saltly taunt and deride the vanity of your frierly superstition In the yeare 1164. was Petrus Valdus a citizen of Lions whose followers after had giuen them diuerse names to disgrace them withall For your frendes call them Waldenses Albigenses pauperes de Lugduno Picardos Boslauienses Thaboritas and Leonistas changing their titles and names according to the diuersities of places and times they liued in howsoeuer their Religion was all one And these haue beene of ancient time and of great continuance in very many places namely in Prouince Sarmatia Lyuonia Bohemia Morauia Polonia Silesia Belgia and in Calabria and of you wheresoeuer or whensoeuer they were they haue beene cruelly persecuted for heretiques and yet if their opinions bee iudged of not as you the more to disgrace them haue charged them but as they in their owne confessions of their faith and Apologies haue set them downe they in many thinges helde the verie same that wee doe and condemned the same for errours in you that wee now doe They are of 400. yeares continuance at least For Aeneas Syluius a man of your owne for he was Pope ere he died writeth handling the stories of Boeme that they had continued vnto his time from the yeare 1160. And Gulielmus Paruus writeth that their doctrine was examined in Oxforde and found sound concerning God and the merites of Christ for your doctrine concerning the iorning of our owne merites with Christes to make vp full satisfaction and redemption is of farre later inuention and their life saieth hee was commendable but in the doctrine of the Sacrament they were found to differ from the Church of Rome Yea Reinerus a writer 300. yeares ago who as he himselfe saith was often at the examination of them in his booke of inquisitions writing of them calling them Leonists confesseth that some saied they had continued from Syluesters time and that some saied they had beene euen from the time of the Apostles he further reports that they had great shew of holy life in liuing iustly before men and that they beleeued all things well of God and all the articles contained in the creede onely he chargeth them that they hated blasphemed the Romish Church And this he further writes that there was no land wherein that sect did not creepe speaking but of thē that were thē but in one cuntrey yet this he testifieth that they had there ten schooles in one parish called Camach that there were forty congregations or Churches of them euery one hauing their leaders or teachers and that their power in his time was such that none as hee saieth durst then openlie resist them There are yet to bee seene as good authours report the consultations and records of the proceedings of foure great Bishops in France against them writen three hundreth yeares ago namely of Narbonensis Arelatensis Aquensis and Albanensis yea 355. yeares ago I read there was a Councell kept in Tholossa especially against them And yet though both of ancient times and later daies the Synagogue of Rome hath sought to roote them out by all possible cruelty they and their successours continue vnto this day in great numbers in Bohemia and in other places But because you very
oft in this your booke and the rest of your side continually beare the simple reader and vnlearned Christian in hand that before Luther there were none of our religion that haue so condemned your Church and religion as we doe I wil vouchsafe for the better inabling of euery one that shall read this my answere to see your vanity and impiety though this which I haue noted already be sufficient to lay open your folly to proceed yet somewhat further in this matter Wherefore to go on in the course of times though your popish Church hath bene in her ruffe and at the heighest that euer she was this latter 400 yeares yet we are able to shew that there haue bene many euen in this time from time to time and that in sundry places that haue ioyned with vs against you that therefore there is no such newnesse or strangenes in our religion a d doings as you would make the ignorant beleeue For in the dayes of Gregory the 9 in the yeare 1230 the Greeke Church and other Easterne Churches did quite forsake communion with yours who euer since ioyne with vs in a number of thinges against you as namely in withstanding the supremacy of your Romish Bishop as appeareth not onely by one Epistle that Germanus Petriarch of Constantinople wrote vnto the pope in the yeare 1237 but also by a large booke writen about the yeare 1384 by Nilus Archbishop of Thessalonica wherein he doeth not onely confute his Supremacy euen as we doe but also he enueigheth against al those that hold communion with the Popish or latin Church And as it appeareth in ancient record in the Church of Herford wherein 29 of the Articles wherein they differ from the Church of Rome are set downe they ioine not only with vs in this point in seperating thēselues frō the Romish Church in denying the popes supremacie which is the very foundation of your Church and religion but also in denying purgatory and masses for the dead in holding it lawfull for their ministers to enioy the benefit of matrimony in not vsing any priuate masse in not denying the cup to any that receaue in not ministring the communion in priuate houses in not vsing extreme vnction and in sundry other points And by diuers Epistles writen from thence of late extant in print both in greeke and latin to Chitreus and other Germans it euidently appeareth that they ioyne with vs against the Romish Church in many other great and weighty points of our religiō and that great hope there is that they might easily be brought to ioyne with vs in the rest Besides these Easterne churches euē here in these westerne parts euident it is that there haue beene many great learned and famous persons with innumerable followers at all tymes from age to age in these latter 400 yeares when the tyranny of your popes to represse them hath bene the greatest and strongest that euer it was which yet haue openly with vs stood forth against them and their religion For Fredericke the second as diuers other Emperours had beene before him as namely Constantine the 5. Leo his sonne and Constantine the 6 in the East and Henry the 4 and 5 in the West was a notable Antagonist of the 3 popes in his time contending against them to maintaine the authority of Christian princes against their vsurped Supremacy ouer them about the yeare 1260 as notoriously the Cronicles of those times writen by your owne men Platina Sabelicus and others declare And 20 years before that Krātzius testifieth in his history that there were many that preached openly in Sueuia that the Pope was an heretique his clergy Symoniakes and generally they all seducers of the people Ten yeares after that florished Arnoldus De nouâ villâ a Spaniard who taught that Sathā had thē seduced the world that the faith thē taught was but such as deuils had meaning belike a bare historicall faith that the pope led men to hell that he and his clergy did falsifie the doctrine of Christ that masses were naught not to be saied for the dead c. and therefore your popish Church condemned him for an heretique Much what about the same time was Gulielmus De Sancto amore a master and chiefe ruler then in Paris who went as farre as Arnoldus applying the same Scriptures which concerne Antichrist as we doe to the pope and his clergy and therefore hee also was condemned for an heretique and his bookes burnt by your popish rout And in the yeare 1260 Laurentius Anglicus a master of Paris also tooke this Williams part against the pope wrote a booke in his defence In the yeare 1290 Petrus Iohānes a Minorite directly preached the pope to be Antichrist and Rome great Babylon and therefore he was burnt after he was dead 30 yeares and more before this Robert Grosthead a famous learned man and Bishop of Lincolne for hee died in the yeare one thousand two hunderd fifty three was a great withstander of the popes tyranny and three dayes before his death hauing conference with his clergy he laboureth to make them see by sundry demonstrations that the pope was Antichrist and his doings Antichristian King Philip of France about the yeare one thousand three hundred was a great withstander of the Supremacy which now the Pope challengeth and a resister in his dominions of sundry of his enormities and William Nagareta and the prelates of France then ioyned with their king against the pope Grosthead this king Philip and his clergy as afterward king Edward the 3. king of England in the yeare 1346 despised the popes curse appealed frō him to God There is in an ancient Chronicle of S. Albons a notable Epistle of one Cassiodorus to the Church of England wherein are layed forth a number of lamentable abuses in the Roman Church in the yeare one thousand three hundred twenty eight In the Extrauagants we reade that Marsillius Patauinus Iohannes de Ganduno Michael Chesenas Petrus de Carborea and Iohannes de Poliaco all great learned men were condemned by the Pope for preaching against his Supremacy and other errours of that Church of his about the yeare 1326. There were thē also many learned mē more that disputed wrote against his Supremacy which took part with Ludouicke the Emperour against him as William Occam Luitpoldus Andreas Landanensis Vlricus Hangenor the Emperors treasurer and others Dante 's liuing in the yeare one thousand three hundred wrote against the Pope the orders of religious men and the Doctours of the Decrees saying that these were three great enemies to the trueth he flatly hath left in writing in his cāticle of Purgatory that the Pope of a pastor was become a woulfe that he was the whoar of Babylon In the yeare 1350. Gregory Ariminensis Andreas de Castro and Burdianus taught as we doe against your doctrine of freewill and merites Taulerus then a preacher in Argentine preached openly against your doctrine
hundred yeares haue beene at contention yet doubtles are not agreed about the conception of the Virgin Mary whither it were in sinne or no about diuers sundry other great mysteries of their religion Yea euen in the Sacrament of the body and bloude of Christ wherein they would seeme to be at greatest vnity yet if a man were disposed to note the diuers opinions therein amongst themselues he should scarse euer knowe when to make an ende For there be some of them that holde that there Christs body is torne and chewed with the teeth as it appeareth in the Recantation that they prescribe to Beringarius others as Guymund de Consecra Dist 2. thinke that too grosse Some as Gardener would haue Hoc to signifie indiuiduum vagum a certaine thing that is but they cannot tell what others now would haue it to note that which is vnder the accidentes of bread and wine Scotus and Innocentius the fourth holde consecration to be not by the fiue wordes but by Christs blessing others holde now that it is done by the fiue wordes When it commeth to the eating some holde that it entreth the mouth but no further others wil haue it to passe into the stomacke but not into the guttes others wil haue it to go thither also Infinite are the questions that they are fallen into about this matter And in their last conuenticle at Trident where they had hoped to haue healed all these sores yet euen then there grew a great contention betwixt two great captaynes of theirs Archbishop Catharinus and Frier Soto and that about no small matters namely about assured confidence of the fauour of God Predestination originall sinne free-will and such like matters Insomuch that for all the councell could doe for six yeares together they continuallie went on in writing bookes bitterly one against another The same Catharin also wrote a booke against Caietan a Cardinall laying therein to his charge 200. errours CoÌ„tention also the same Catharin had with FraÌ„ciscus Torrensis a man otherwise of his owne faction about single life of priests residence of Bishops both which the one helde was as hee taught therein warranted by Gods worde the other stoutly holding the contrary In the Articles of iustification free grace and originall sinne Ruard Tapper a great Papist and Deane of Colen in his second tome wrote against Piggius an Archpiller of that Synagogue contending to proue that he was deceiued and erred in those pointes But what should I take vpon me to reckon vp the contentions and controuersies that are amongst them For certaine it is they are so many and infinite that a man if he were disposed might write a booke of a whole quire of paper consisting onely of a bare recitall of the differences of opinions that their writers haue set downe in their owne bookes about points and questions of religion And yet see as though there neuer had beene iarre amongst them they brag of vnity amongst the simple and labour our disgrace with the obiection of variety of opinions amongst vs especially about this one point of the maner of Christs reall presence in the sacrament But seeing now hereby in parte you see at what agreement they are I hope you thinke it reason that they should agree better amongest themselues before they insult any more against vs for our disagreement Lastly they doe vs wrong in seeking to disgrace vs and our religion in that since Luther beganne to preach there haue risen vp diuerse and sundrie fonde and foolish heretiques For wee read that immediatly after the Apostles tymes euen within few yeares Epiphanius by his tyme could reckon vp eighty and Augustine more seuerall errours and heresies which in effect did growe togither with the Gospell and yet the Gospell not to be blamed therefore but Sathan who where the good seedes-man sowed good seede vseth to sowe also his tares Matthew the thirteenth And yet it seemeth by Saint Iohns preuention of this obiection that some aswell affected to the Gospell then belike as you be now were ready hereby to discredit both the Apostles and their doctrine But Iohns answere is they went out from vs but they were not of vs for if they had beene of vs they would haue continued vvith vs. But this came to passe that it might appeare that they were not all of vs 1. Iohn 3. Euen so wee answere you concerning those that you say haue any where since Luther risen amongst vs and fallen into heresies Yet further so much the more apparent is the wronge that you offer vs in this behalfe in that not onely you knowe we shun communion with them as wel as you but that also it euidently hath appeared to the world that wee haue beene both the first and the forwardest in detecting of them and in confuting of them from time to time Wherfore I conclude that hitherto you haue saied nothing of any force for the iustification either of your vocation Church or religion The V. Chapter THe like vnto this is confirmed by Vincensius Lyrinensis of whom we haue spoken before for he saith in the booke aboue named that that person ought to be esteemed a true Catholicke a This rule is sound and good but it quite ouerthroweth popery because it cannot be proued to be this ancient Catholique faith For â—he contrary is certaine both by scripture and all sound antiquity that hath nothing in greater coÌ„meÌ„dation then the true religion of the Catholick faith yea although it were the wisest man in the world and the greatest Philosopher and the fairest speaker that euer was if he came to speake against the old doctrine that hath beene taught vs of our forefathers time out of mind we ought saieth he to disdaine that learned Clarke with al his philosophy cuÌ„ning to holde our selues to the ancieÌ„t opinion of the church the which hath continued vntill this present day b But such as all popery and no part of our religion And if that nowe one should bring a new doctrine that was not heard of before contrary vnto that that hath euer bene taught in the Church say that it doeth not appertaine vnto the state of the Catholicke faith that it is no religioÌ„ but a temptation And therefore if we wil be saued we ought to liue and die in that faith that hath continued by succession of Pastours euen froÌ„ Christs time vnto these daies S. Irenaeus a very famous writer Lib. 4. contr haer cap. 65. in his fourth book against heresies the 65. Chapter who was within a few yeares of the Apostles Archbishop of Lions writeth the very like c Proue your religion now to bee the same that was in Irenaeus time and then you say something his testimony make for you otherwise not and this is impossible saying that the true faith the true knowledge of God is the doctrine of the Apostles the ancient estate of the Church throughout the world
that by the Apostolique tradition he vnderstandeth this same doctrin of God the father which before they wrote the Apostles deliuered vnto the church by liuely voice afterward as it appeareth they set down in writing Is this thē honest dealing in you to make your Reader beleeue that he meant of vnwriten doctrine such as the is for which you we striue seeing he telleth you himselfe that by the Apostolique tradition of the church you are to vnderstād this doctrine of God the father most plainely plentifully writen and set downe in the scriptures You might haue learned of S. Paul 2. Thes 2.15 that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tradition may as wel be referred to expresse doctrine in scripture as that which is deliuered by word of mouth where the Apostle as then very litle of the new testamēt being writen and as then therefore the whole Apostolicke doctrine therein not being expressed saith Hold fast brethrē the documēts deliuered you whither by word or by our Epistle But you are the lesse to be blamed the more to be borne withall for this your wilful thus abusing your reader because the making or marring of your church and Religion stādeth vpon vnwriten verities or rather forgeries which you call the Apostolicke or the holy churches traditions For there are few or none of those points of Religiō wherein we differ from you and striue with you about but your owne great champions haue confessed haue their ground from hence and not from the scriptures As any man that will take the paines to reade them may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the 5. cap. of Canisius catechisme in the 5. booke 100. c. of Lindans panoply where they reckon vp almost all the points in controuersie betwixt them vs in Religion and when they haue done plainely cōfesse the ground thereof to be but tradition And therefore to countenance this onely bulwarke of your church Religion at least with those that either for lacke of leasure or learning cānot examine your quotations it is not your fault here alone but the cōmon fault of you all where you finde any mention in fathers of tradition though it be neuer so euident that thereby they meane nothing beside that which also hath warrant from the word writen to alleadge that place streight to countenance your vnwritē traditiōs To preuēt you therfore hereafter of thus abusing the simple I would wish thē all others to mark how flatly against your vnwritē vnwarāted traditiōs by the writē word the fathers with one consent haue writē for the absolute sufficiēcy of the scriptures Besides that which you heard out of Irenaeus Tertulliā to this purpose Irenaeus saieth further in his fifth book we must run to the Church be brought vp in her bosō nourished with the scriptures of god And Tert against Hermog writeth Let Hermogenes shew that it is writen if it be not writē let him fear that wo that is threatned or appointed to the adders or takers awaie As for Origen we haue heard him tel vs before that our senses and declarations without the witnesse of the scriptures haue no credit in his 1. Hom. vpon Ierem. And great and worthy Athanasius saieth The holy scriptures giuen by diuine inspiration are sufficient to shew the trueth against Idol Hillarie saieth it is wel that we are content with those things that are writen in his third booke of the Trinity Cyrill vpon Iohn in his 12. booke and 68. cap. graunteth indeede that all things that Christ did are not writen but hee saieth those things are writen which the writers thought sufficient both for maners and doctrine Chrysostome writing vpon the 2. to Timothie Homil. 9. saieth If there be anie thing needefull either to learne or to bee ignorant of we shall learne it in the Scriptures and in the commentary vpon Matth. commonly also fathered vpon Chrysostome wee read these golden words They that be in Christianity let them flee to the Scriptures because they can haue no other proofe of Christianity but by the Scriptures To this end read also Chrysostome vpon the 2 to the Thes Hom. 3. Basil also very sharpely writeth that it is a most euident argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man either doe reiect any thing of that which is writen or bring any thing not writen seeing the Lord saieth My sheepe heare my voice and they follow not the voice of a strāger in his treatise of true and godly faith Where also he noteth that Paul Galat. 3. by an example taken from men most vehemently forbiddeth that any thing be put out of the scriptures of God or which God forbid saith he be added thereunto And therefore he in Moral Reg. 26. saieth further Whatsoeuer we say or doe it must be confirmed by the testimony of the Scriptures Where likewise in his 80 rule he gathereth that seeing faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God without doubt whatsoeuer is without the holy scripture seeing it is not of faith must needes be sinne and therefore he addeth in that rule let vs stand to the arbitriment of the scriptures and with whom doctrine is founde consonant thereunto let the sentence of all trueth bee adiudged of their sides Hierome vpon Agge cap. 1. saieth those thinges which of their owne heades they deuise as though they came by Apostolique tradition without the authority and testimonie of the holy Scripture the sword of God striketh who also vpon Math. cap. 23. saieth that which hath not authority frō the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And contra Heluidium he saieth we beleeue it because we reade it and we beleeue it not because we reade it not August against Cresconins the Grammarian in his 2. booke writeth That there is an Ecclesiasticall canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles by which bookes we iudge of all other writings both of the faithfull and of the Infidels out of whom already wee haue heard diuerse plaine testimonies to this purpose especially that against Petilian in his 3. booke and 6. cap. set downe in the ende of the confutation of the 3. chap Damascen is as plaine as any of these in his 1 booke of right faith cap. 1. Cuncta quae tradit a sunt c. All thinges saieth hee which are deliuered vs by the Prophets Apostles and Euangelists we embrace wee acknowledge reuerence beyond those seeking no further For all things concerning faith and maners he confesseth are plainelie conteined in the scriptures de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Infinite such places might be cited out of the ancient fathers for they are full of them whereby it sufficiently appeareth that this was the vniforme and generall iudgement and opinion of them of the sufficiency of the scriptures If therefore in deede and trueth you made any reckoning of their generall consēt as often times you will
pretend you would yeelde vnto them in this point and so spare much labour that you bestowe to get credit to your traditions vnwriten Which if you would once be brought vnto we should quickly by the sole and sufficient authority of the scriptures haue a faire hand of you Which you espying whatsoeuer otherwise you would seeme to account of the fathers to bleare the eies of the simple in this they shall keepe their iudgement to themselues for you like it not So that this and such your like dealing with them caused one once to tell you that the fathers are vnto you as counters in the handes of him that casteth an account according to whose will and pleasure sometimes one and the selfesame counter standeth for an ob that stoode immediately before for a pound or more So with you when it pleaseth you an ancient fathers testimony is of great weight and when it pleaseth you againe 20. of their testimonies are nothing Howbeit I hope the indifferent reader by these testimonies doeth will perceiue that you wonderfully seeke to abuse Gods people when yet you would perswade them at anie time that the ancient fathers are fauourers and patrons of your vnwriten traditions And I trust this may serue to make it sufficiently appeare that in the iudgement of these ancient fathers your Andradius may be ashamed to write as he hath scripto suo aedito tempore Tridentini coÌ„cilii That the greatest part of Catholicke Religion is left vnto the traditions of the church not writen and that your Lyndan was extreame mad or very drunke when he wrote It is most extreame madnes to thinke that the whole and entire body of Euangelicall doctrine is to be searched out of the Apostolique letters writen with inke out of the litle booke of the new testament Panopl lib. 1. cap. 22. But thus to make vnwriten traditions sometime equall sometime superiour in authority to the canonical scripture that vpoÌ„ this ground that al trueth is not sufficieÌ„tly taught therein you haue learned of the Encratites Manichees and of the Montanists Valentinians and others as it appeares in them that wrote against them And yet O good God what a stir now of late this Andradius Lyndan other such your great champions haue made what cost they haue bestowed to drawe men from that estimation that these fathers had of the authority and sufficiencie of the canonicall scriptures in making large treatises and discourses to shew that the authority therof depends of the testimony and authority of the church that they are not sufficient no not halfe sufficient for the direction of the church either for Religion or conuersation and that they are obscure hard to be vnderstoode all vpon this occasion that will they nil they they are driuen to perceaue that their opinions wherein we differ from them cannot any longer bee defended by the scriptures for al their sophistrie cunning and that therefore they see they must maintaine the credit of theÌ„ by the authority of the church her vnwriten traditions which they may say to be what they lift or that else they must be driuen to throw vs the bucklers and to run out of the field But you doe fouly deceiue your selues if you thinke in this great light that men espy not that this is a shamefull shift and which argueth that your cause is euen giuing vp the ghost that you caÌ„ hold out no longer vnles it be by preferring the authority of the church the wife before Christ the husband by giuing her your commission to sit as iudge ouer her husbands word to adde there unto and take therefrom how what seemeth good vnto her And your fault herein is the more intollerable because by the church you vnderstand alwaies your popish Synagogue that now is For euen children may see that you are very farre driuen when there is no other remedy but you must thus open your mouthes and prepare your pens to disgrace his writen word which all meÌ„ know to be his word indeed without question for the gracing countenancing in this sort of that which though you call his worde you are neuer able to proue to be so And for this who seeth not that we may iustly say of you as Tertull Apolog. 5. saied of the heathen in his time Apud vos de humano arbitratu pensitatur diuinitas nisi homini Deus placuerit Deus non erit homo iaÌ„ Deo propitius esse debebit that is with you the godhead is esteemed of as man shall thinke good vnles God please man he shall not be God man now must be good to God Howsoeuer you are ashamed thus grosly with these prophane pagans to speake yet it is euident in that you still say write that the writen word of God is inferiour in authority to the church hath the canonical credit from thence that the sence thereof is must be whatsoeuer your Bishop of Rome for the time being doeth define determine so to be relying stil vpon vnwriten traditions bearing men in hand that they are as well the word of God as the canonical scriptures as you doe al meÌ„ whoÌ„ your enchantmeÌ„ts haue not bewitched made blind may see that in effect you are as grosse as they of whom these words were truely writen This once we knowe to be his word which wee finde set downe in the Canonicall scriptures we are sure this was writen by the direction of Gods Spirit for the information of the Church And we cannot be ignorant but that this Spirit of God foresawe what dangerous heretiques there would bee which if they were not preuented by leauing the word of God fully in writing vnder the pretence of vnwriten traditions would bring in damnable heresies And therefore seeing it is euident vnto vs that he in these writings begaÌ„ to leaue instruction vnto vs to settle vs in the certaine trueth we know he could go thorow with it because he is God the fountain authour of all wisedome trueth are sure that he was willing because he perfectly loued the church by Christs promise by the ministry of the Apostles was to leade it into al trueth we must needes thinke it flat blasphemy to think that the writeÌ„ word of God is any way vnsufficieÌ„t for the full direction of the Church in all matters And therefore howsoeuer you please your Sects in this deuise of yours in feighting thus for the traditions of the Church thinke not to the contrarie but any man of meane iudgement will discrie both your vâ—â—â—tie and impiety therein by making this reason in his owne minde vnto himselfe The spirit of God in the writers of the Scriptures sawe it good and necessary to leaue the worde of God for the full direction of the Church in all matters writen by that is done and writen it is cleare hee tooke it in hand and to take it in hand
and not to perfect it is to leaue the Church without a perfect touchstone to trie all doctrines by and argueth that it was either because hee could not or would not perfect it whereof the one robbeth him of his almighty power and infinite knowledge the other of the perfection of loue and faithfulnesse towards the churchâ— therefore most certainely in the writen worde there is left a full and perfect direction for the Church and consequently those vnwriten traditions that some striue for are superfluous Thus you haue your answere to this Chapter The VI. Chapter SAint Augustine in his Epistle a You should say 165. f r there are but 204. epistles in all 365. about the like matter doth set forth all the Popes by order which haue beene from S. Peters time vntill Anastasius which was Pope in his time and by his continuall succession he doeth proue b By the same argument we disproue popery because none of them that hee reckoÌ„s vp there was of the Romish religion that now is that the doctrine of the Donatists is heretical because that none of those Popes which hee did recite nor no part of the Church did receiue it I praie you may not wee saie the like by the c No not by theÌ„ truely whom you call Caluinistes Caluinists and other heretiques The saied S. Augustine in the Epistle that d It seemes you are a learned maÌ„ For Augustine wrote against an epistle so called he calleth not his so The Epithet RomaÌ„ you adde the words al and continual for he speaketh but of succession to his time and yet there he saieth that oâ—â—â—e trueth is to be preferred before all these he doeth call Epistola fundamenti cap. 4. doeth write the reasons that did keepe him vnder the obedience of the Catholicke Roman Church And among other he doeth alleadge the common consent of all nations the continuall succession of Bishops e This sheweth your great ignorance or negligence for of thâ—â— argument Augustine wrote two bookes and in euery booke many chapters there be but this is common with you the more to trouble your reader to send him to whole bookes and beside sometimes to set downe your quotations as though the authour had wrote but one when he wrote mo of that argumeÌ„t or as though he had wrote moe when he had writen but one And in his booke which he made against the aduersarie of the olde and newe lawe he doeth name the succession of the Bishops as most certaine to answere to that that wee saied before of S. * Ephes 1. Paul f You write Ephes 1. for Ephes 4. I mean that he would not haue vs to be wauering and doubtfull in our doctrine but that we should be firme and stable the which stablenesse is obtained by the knowledge and intelligence of the Scriptures according to the traditions of the Church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops f It continued so to Augustines time that is three or foure hundreth yeares so ergo so a thousand fiue hundreth yeares and more it should so continue the argumeÌ„t followeth not The Church saieth S. Augustine from the Apostles time hath continued through the certaine succession of the Bishops vntill our daies The VI. Chapter IN this 6. Chapter you cite three places though some of them wroÌ„g quoted out of Augustine whereby indeed it appeareth that as Irenaeus did obiect succession euen so did he to confute the heretiques of his time that taught things contrary to the scriptures but as I haue saied vnto you concerning Irenaeus so doe I concerning him You must remeÌ„ber that Augustine liued wrote within 400. yeares after Christ vnto whose time the Bishops pastours whose succession he produceth had continued at least sound in the fundamentall pointes of Christian Religion from which you your predecessours fell away long ago therefore that which he might herein safely and to good purpose doe you cannot doe without perill to an ill ende Againe you must be told that as Irenaeus was not so neither was he in thus doing a Prophet to shew that to the worldes ende it would be safe thus to doe And lastly I would haue both you and your reader to remember that it is not bare personal succession that Augustine here maketh such reckoning of but that wheÌ„ it was ioyned also with succession of trueth of doctrine as it was in his time with them of whose successioÌ„ he speaketh and is not now with you and them of whose succession you brag so much Which three things considered whatsoeuer things further by you or any of your fellowes are alleadged to this purpose out of TertulliaÌ„ Cyprian or Epiphanius which you might haue as well alleadged as Irenaeus or Augustine be answered For they all of them liued within 500. yeares after Christ when as yet the state of the church stood in good tearmes in comparison that yours doeth and they all spoke of succession of persons succeeding also one another in the Apostolicke trueth and they spake but for their owne times they prophecied not that so it would be alwaies And yet thus it is your fashioÌ„ to beguile the simple that whatsoeuer you reade 1000. yeares ago spoken in commendation of the Church of Rome that then was the Catholicke church or Catholicke faith that you would beare them in hand is spoken of your Romish church and Religion now when as yours compared with those times hath no similitude with the Church of Christ then in a great number of weighty points But for the better satisfying of the reader indeede S. August what account soeuer either in these places here recited by you or else where hee seemeth to make of personall succession or of any such outward thing in the church made more account of sole trueth taught only by the canonical Scriptures then of all other things besides For euen in in his 165. epistle which is the epistle as it should seeme which you meant though you quote the 365. which is more by an hundred one then there are in all after he saieth we presume not so much of these as of the scriptures And in the second place by you here cited out of him which ignoraÌ„tly you say he calleth Epistola fundameÌ„ti wheras he calleth none of his epistles so but writes against an epistle of the Manichees which they so called one book in the later ende of the fourth Chapter whereof after hee had reckoned vp the thinges which did hold him in the bosome of the Catholicke church and might likewise hold any beleeuer therein though trueth as yet did not most manifestly shew her selfe he addeth by by but with you speaking to the Manichees sola personat veritatis pollicitatio c. onely promise of trueth rings which truely if it bee shewed to bee on your side so manifest that it cannot be called into doubt praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in
before vs agreeing in vnitie of faith as I haue already said For neither the naughtines of h There is no such there mentioned this is your common hap in your quotations It seemes you would haue said 2. Kings 16. Achas Num. 1. nor of Ioram nor of diuerse other great sinners which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Iesus Christ were not able to withstand the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham that is to saie that he would be borne of this line Euen so the ill liues and conuersation of diuerse wicked Popes that haue followed after Saint Peter haue neuer beene a This is true and yet you neuer the nearer For though al Papists faile in faith yet his church neuer faileth able to moue Christ to breake his promise that is to saie that the faith of his Church should neuer faile Math. 16. and that the gates of hell that is to saie of infidelity which are the portes of damnation should neuer preuaile against it b I see not how that chapter or any thing therein serueth to this purpose any whit at all Esay 58. Our aduersaries therefore that take such great paines to set forth in golden legends the liues of the wicked Popes that haue beene since Saint Peters time thinking thereby to ouerthrowe the succession of the Catholicke ecclesiasticall faith c Your comparison is odiou◠neither doe wee lay open their wicked liues to that ende you speake of but to shew that your glory is your shame doe no lesse offend God then if they should go about to proue the promise of God made to the Patriarches to bee vaine because of the evill liues of their successours Therefore those that doe reproche vnto vs now that the Popes of our daies are not altogither so holie as S. Peter wee doe confesse it But they cannot deny or they will confesse vnto vs that the aboue named euil Kings Achaz Ioram Manasses Amon Iechonias and others did leade no such holy liues as Abraham Isaac Iacob or Dauid yet notwithstanding those euil Kings haue beene set forth in the generation of our Sauiour as the fathers of the iust Iesus Christ Let them iudge then that haue any witte whether this bee a great folly or no to see how these crafty coggers of the scriptures should make many simple persons refuse to be the Popes spirituall children because they were sinners seeking thereby to ouerthrow all the ancient customes of the Church The VII Chapter WHither onely your succession doeth suffice to ouerthrow all our Religion or any part of it though you here confidently say it is and suppose that to be the cause why we reiect it I refer to the iudgement of the reader by that which hitherto hath beene saied by you and confuted by me concerning the same Whereby also I doubt not but euery indifferent reader may perceiue that we haue and doe still yeelde other causes of our reiection of it and not this at all Whereas you call our Religion here heresie that you haue learned of the corrupt Orator Tertullus Act. 24. But as he tearmeth poore Paul there a captaine of the Sect or heresie of the Nazarites and the high Priest and elders saied it was euen so yet hee was not ashamed of the Gospell of Christ which they so tearmed but stoutly saied before Felix to their faces that according to that way which they counted heresie he worshipped the God of his fathers beleeuing all that was writē in the law the Prophets so though you giue vs neuer so many nicknames and tearme our Religion neuer so oft new and an heresie and haue your high Priest of Rome and your elders to bear you out in so doing we neuer a whit the more mislike of our Religion as long as wee are able in trueth to say with Saint Paul which our consciences witnesse comfortably we may that therein we doe but beleeue that which is taught vs in the canonicall Scriptures Indeede not Caluin only but euery one of vs when we haue to doe with you in this question of your succession we tell you your reason drawen frō your succession is of no force seeing the Greekes whom you account heretiques may vse that argument as well as you But to preuent this our obiection against your argument of succession you say They haue not succession and continuance of doctrine the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuāce of pastors to shew the true recognisance of the Catholique Religion We are glad to see heare that euidence force of trueth hath wrong frō you this kinde of honest true replie to our obiection yet we thanke you not for it at all For ful gladly if our obiections had not driuen you to it perforce would you haue run on which bare succession of Bishops pastours without any mention of this Well howsoeuer you haue beene drawen to confesse thus much thereupon it doeth most euidently followe that if there be as little continuance lesse too in the Apostolicke faith and doctrine in your succession as there is amongst the Greekes then by your owne confession your succession is as weake a recognisance of the Catholique Religion as theirs And therefore the case thus standing you had neede to haue bestowed lesse paines to proue your personall succession and more to haue proued this succession and continuance of the true Catholicke doctrine for the other wtout this you see is nothing What a preposterous course is this then that you haue takē to take such leasure to bestow pains on that which when you haue gotten is nothing to find no leasure to bestow any paines on this which if you could haue proued your aduersaries would haue stoode with you no longer Enter yet into this controuersie when you will I dare vndertake if you will be tried in this case by the canonicall scriptures which as I haue shewed you must of necessity it shall easily be proued that notwithstanding all you can say against the Greekes your popish Religion consisteth of more heresies and is a greater Apostasie from the ancient Catholique Apostolique faith then theirs The greatest thing you charge thē withall is their denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost from the Father the Sonne which indeede if they denied in that sence that is obiected against them by you doubtles therin they were heretiques But it should seeme that they refuse only that word as not vnderstood of thē added as they say without the consent of the whole church to the creede of feare onely least by admitting the word they should thereby be enforced to cōfesse that he came not of one beginning but of two beginnings in the meane time vsing other words expressing in effect the same thing And if it be thus as in the last session of the Florētine councell it should seeme to be els where thē in that respect their cause is not so ill as
shewing by al lineal succession how you came to it from Christ his Apostles but thereby also you haue quite ouerthrown our claime This is easily saied wel bragged of you but it is more then either you can or meane to proue O yes saie you we can as it were going vp vpon the ladder of Iacob mount from step to step vntil in the top we come to those that first taught the Catholique faith in Tholossa Paris and Guienna as to S. Saturim Denice Martiall and Gratian and to the rest of the Saints It may be these were Saints you speake of and yet you haue not shewed vs that yea it may be also you can frō age to age euen frō that time to ours now name vs the persons that haue succeeded one another from those men you speake of but you shal neuer be able to proue that all these persons which haue succeeded haue continued in the sound Apostolique faith and so haue deriued it down frō the first to you that be the last which vnles you proue this climing vpō this ladder you talke of wil doe you smal pleasure But you are so confidently perswaded that the religion that you are in possession of now is the very same that was taught the Church of Christ in the beginning that you denounce him anathema be hee man or angell that preacheth against it Yet this is no proofe that it is the very same For you may be deceiued and if God would giue you grace to read and rightly to vnderstand the Scriptures sure I am that euen in thus saying you would finde that you haue as far as your authority reacheth cursed and excommunicated your own selues your whole Church So far of are we though it please you stil to cal our religion a new Gospel from being afraid to ioine with you in anathematizing them that preach any other Gospell then Christ and his Apostles preached at the first that withal our hearts we say Amen thereunto And therefore for all your supposed newnes of our religion we wish with all our hearts according to Iohns counsell 1. Epist 2. that that might abide which wee haue heard from the beginning We thinke Tertullian saieth most truely that cōmeth from the Lord is true that is first deliuered that is strange and false which is brought in after De praescrip aduersus haereticos Wherfore we say also most willingly with him in an other place in his 4 booke against Marcion Id est verius quod est prius c. That is truer that is former that is former that is from the beginning and that is from the beginning which is from the Apostles But then we conclude with him De praescriptione aduersus haereticos Vndè autem extranei inimici Apostolis haeretici nisi ex diuersitate doctrinae c. How are strangers and enemies to the Apostles knowen but by the diuersitie of doctrine which euery one of his owne minde hath brough forth and receiued against the Apostles therefore let deprauation of Scriptures and their exposition be accounted to bee where the diuersitie of doctrine is founde hitherto Tertullian and wee with him and therefore doe not charge vs any more with newnesse nor make your bragges anie more to deceiue the simple of antiquity vnlesse by the Scriptures wherein the simpliest knowe the Apostolique doctrine is contained indeede you can proue your doctrin to agree with theirs and ours to disagree For you may not thinke that you can cause them that haue any witte or discretion at al left them to beleeue that your doctrine is the same that was taught at the first by the Apostles because you can say so or because you can tel them their father grandfather and great grandfather tooke it so as long as they see you are loath to come to the triall with the learned whither it be so or no by Gods writen word Euen herein thundering out your Anathema though you would seeme therein stout and resolute in your religion yet if your words be wel marked it may euidently be perceiued that like a dastard you shunne the trial of your doctrine by the writen word For you say If any body come to teach vs any other doctrine then that which hath beene taught vs at the beginning I do not say writen in booke no take heed o◠that but printed in our harts let him be Anathema c. wherby you bewray your minde namely to be this that when it shal come in trial what that religiō is that was preached at the beginning you would not haue the Canonical books of the old and new Testament to determine the matter but that which was then writen in mens hearts whereby you meane your vnwriten traditions But I pray you how shal we know what was writen in mens hearts by the ministry of the Apostles better or more safely then by that which they wrote Especially seing as Irenaeus hath tolde vs that which they preached at the first after by the wil of God they committed vnto writing to be the foūdation piller of our faith in his 3 booke Chap. 1. As for your vnwriten word to speake most moderately you knowe the credit thereof is suspected and certaine it is it must agree with the word writen for God is one and selfesame both in writing and speaking or els worthily may it not be suspected onely but flatly also reiected as a false and counterfait word which but that you know it doeth not you would without any such correction or explanation of your meaning haue saied simply that you would haue him held Anathema that preacheth any other doctrine thē that which is writen in the books of the scripture But your owne conscience telling you that yours was another doctrin then had warrāt fro thēce before the curse should drop out of your pen you thought it wisdome least in your own knowledge you should haue cursed you selues to tel vs that you directed your sentence not against those that teach another doctrine then those bookes wil warrāt for of such you allow well enough or else you should disallowe your selues but against those that teach another doctrine from that which was writen in our harts so leauing to your selues liberty to make the poore people beleeue that that was whatsoeuer you would deuise O this is too too grosse paltry dealing in matters that so much concerne the souls of mē as this doth especially in this so great light that shineth now euery where amongst vs. As for your liues the liues of your pastors and great bishops though they be such as worthily you may be ashamed of yet if they had continued in the profession of the trueth therein we would haue held for al the other communion with them But seing their liues haue bene such a long time as there were neuer worse in Sodom nor any where els witnes your own stories Benno Cardin Platina Sabellicus Abbas Vsperg and others
but especially their doctrine hath bene directly contrary in a multitude of most material points of Christian religion to the doctrine taught vs in the Scripture as I shew in diuers places of this booke wee haue as we are counselled Apocal. 18. seperated our selues froÌ„ you and them least by holding society with you in these your sinnes we should in the iustice of God haue beene driuen also in the end to bee partakers with you in your plagues And therefore to conclude this chapter though you bragge that you haue two things to quiet your consciences withal that you beleeue a doctrine that your pastours the vniuersal Church haue taught you 1500. years and that their ill liues cannot hurt you yet in deede and trueth you haue neither of both for your ill liues being ioyned with ill doctrine hath bereaued you of both so you haue had nether the vniuersal Church of Christ but a particuler Synagogue of your own nor any sound or good pastour either for life or religion these 600 or 700 yeares to teach you your faith The X. Chapter NOw to turne vnto the taking of your accompts maie it please you to shew vs how you haue followed the steps of the flocke of Christ according to the counsel that we gaue to his reasonable sheepe as we haue saied before who hath taught you the way that you doe follow what doctours were your first tutors who hath taught you that the precious body of our Sauiour is not really in the Sacrament of the Altar who hath taught the doctrine or if it be not griefe vnto you heresie which you would haue vs to receiue as a Gospell I know before hand that you will alleadge me Iesus Christ and his holie Apostles whose steppes you doe professe to follow preaching euery where that there is no difference betweene your Church or to say trueth Synagogue the church of the Apostles But I pray let me vnderstand by what means you can ioine your selues vnto the Church of the Apostles seing that a This is an impudent vntruth you condemne cut off all the Christians that haue beene are betweene you them For to verifie this I will alleage no other but your owne workes for Caluin in his Institutions at the Treatise of the Supper of the Lord speaking of the oblation of the bodie of our Sauiour Christ as it was offered in olde time he doeth write punctuallie these wordes Caluinus in suâ institutione traditâ de Coenâ Domini I finde saieth he that those of old time haue changed this fashion otherwise then the Institution of our Sauiour did require seeing that their supper did represeÌ„t a certaine spectacle of a strange inuention or at the least of a new maner There is nothing more sure vnto the faithful theÌ„ for theÌ„ to holde themselues vnto the pure ordinance of the Lord by whoÌ„ it was called a supper to the ende that onely his authority may be our rule Yet it is true that when I consider their good meaning and that their intent was neuer to derogate froÌ„ the onely sacrifice of Christ I dare not condeÌ„ne theÌ„ of folly and yet I thinke that one cannot excuse theÌ„ that they haue not somewhat failed in the exteriour forme for they haue followed more the Ceremonies of the Iews theÌ„ the order of Iesus Christ did permit And this is the point in which they ought to be resisted for they haue conformed to much vnto the old TestameÌ„t not contenting theÌ„selues with the simple institution of Christ they haue to much inclined themselues vnto the shadowed Ceremonies of the Iewes law These are Caluins words The Reader may by them see well how this noble Reformer of the Gospel doeth correct al ages and Churches bee they of Martyrs CoÌ„fessours Doctours Interpreters Preachers or any others from the Apostles time vnto our age yet doeth he not denie but that hauing some regard of their simple ignoraÌ„ce he is content to be so good to theÌ„ as for this time not to condemne their errour or impietie because that which they did was with a good intent but yet fearing that the bearing them to much fauour would trouble his conscience he giueth sentence against them saying that a Yet this proueâ—h not that for the which you alleadged him they ought to be resisted because they were not content with the onely institution of Christ but rather that in this case they haue followed the shadowes of the Iewes Now for my part I thinke Caluin his fellowes so scrupulous that they would not ioine themselues vnto persons that are spotted with Iewish Ceremonies b Are you not ashamed thus to bely him is it not euidâ—nt in his words that hee speaketh but onely of some in olde time And because that all maner of people how wise soeuer they were from the Apostles time vntill our daies haue fallen into this errour he doeth counsel my masters his deformed followers according to his sentence to follow none of them at al but only the pure word of the Lord preached by Iesus Christ and by his aboue mentioned Apostles The X. Chapter IN that by the Scriptures we are able to iustifie our doctrine and therfore diuerse times haue called vpon you to come to that trial and yet cannot by any means bring you vnto it that we are sure that that doctrine therein warranted hath alwaies by God by the meanes he hath appointed for that purpose beene preserued and continued in his Church You returning now againe to take accounts of vs how we haue followed the flocke of Christs sheep that weÌ„t before vs fed by the tents of his shepheards are answered And yet for your better and more plaine satisfying who hath taught vs the way that we follow who were the Doctours that were ouâ— first tutors we answere you that Christ his Apostles EuaÌ„gelists in the new Testament were our first tutors since them in the principal points of our religion the aucient Fathers whose names and monumeÌ„ts are knowen vnto the Church that liued for 1000. years after Christ those that I named vnto you before in my answer to your 4 Chapter But particulerly you would know of vs who hath taught vs to deny the reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament of the altar Here I suppose you meane by real presence that real presence which is in this case now taught and receiued in your Church vnder the formes of bread and wine to the mouthes of al receiuers be they faithful or faithlesse for otherwise none of vs doe deny a true and most certaine presence of Christ to the faith of the right receiuer This theÌ„ being your meaning we do not onely as you suppose answere you that we haue learned of Christ his Apostles to deny it but also of al the ancieÌ„t writers of credit accouÌ„t in the Church for 700 or 800 years togither since we haue bene coÌ„tinued in the same
by BertraÌ„ and others before named and their followers as we haue made it most euident in many bookes writeÌ„ to that purpose namely of late in a great booke called Orthodoxus coÌ„seÌ„sus the true catholick coÌ„sent of the holy Scriptures ancient Church of the trueth of the words of the Lords supper and of al the coÌ„trouersie thereabout printed at Tygure 1578 which booke al the swarme of you wil neuer be souÌ„dly able to answere coÌ„fute as long as you liue And therfore al the rest of this Chapter is needles wherein you suppose that betwixt Christ and his Apostles and vs there is none that we caÌ„ produce of our iudgemeÌ„t or otherwise against you But you take vpoÌ„ you to proue that we cut of theÌ„ al that haue bene betweene theÌ„ vs because Caluin hath writeÌ„ haÌ„dling this matter of the sacrament that he did find that they of old time had chaÌ„ged the fashioÌ„ of the administratioÌ„ therof otherwise theÌ„ Christs institutioÌ„ would beare c. wheruâ—oÌ„ your coÌ„clusion followeth not for diuers causes For an argumeÌ„t froÌ„ one to al holdeth not as Caluin hath done so ergo it is all out opion we al do so For though we accouÌ„t of him as of a rare singuler minister of the Lord yet wee doe not binde our selues to doe and say whatsoeuer he did and saied For we know him to haue beene a man subiect to error and infirmity for al his gifts neither wil you be coÌ„tented that such an argument should hold alwaies drawn froÌ„ any one of your greatest most famous learned writers to presse al the rest And a second reason of the weaknes of your argumeÌ„t is that there is more in your coÌ„clusion then is in the antecedent giuen you by him For you would conclude for those are your words to the proofe whereof you cite Caluin that we condeÌ„ne cut of al the ChristiaÌ„s that haue bene are betwixt Christ his Apostles and vs wheras Caluin speaketh not of al but of some of olde time The 3 reason Caluin himselfe giueth you in the eueÌ„ in the words set downe by you he sheweth plainly that though in theÌ„ that he spake of he noted some aberration froÌ„ the simplicity of Christs institution yet he did not therfore cut theÌ„ of froÌ„ the Church nor coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ What are you such a cutter that you straight cut of al those froÌ„ coÌ„munioÌ„ with you in whoÌ„ you caÌ„ iustly finde any fault or errour in opinion or practise of life Surely then you must cut of most of your best frends That which we can foundly proue to be a fault in brethren either ancient or of later time we may safely note tel them of and labour to reforme yet as long as they ioine togither with vs in one God faith and Baptisme otherwise we can and ought to holde peace Christian communion with them or els where caÌ„ there at any time be any true concord or peace kept in the church For some differences of opinions vsages there haue alwaies yet beene and wil be betwixt one particuler Church and another and betwixt some members of the true church or other You needed not therfore I warrant you one whit haue beene afraide that Caluin his fellowes were so scrupulous that they would not ioine in fellow ship with some such as he speaketh of there and yet the letteth not but that he should couÌ„sel his readers to prefer Christs own simple institution before the vsage of them or any other differing from it The XI Chapter YOu doâ— verie wel that S. Paul doth coÌ„pare many times the mistical body of the church vnto a natural body seing that Iesus Christ is the head vnto whoÌ„ the body is ioined by ioints bones sinews If one should then demande of you how the feete are ioined to the head you will answere me by the legs which are next vnto the feete And if I aske you how the legs are ioyned to the head you will answer by the ioints and by the 〈◊〉 of the backe and so consequently from member to member I doe beleeue that we are all of one accord * 1 Cor. 10. that the ende of the world is at hand and so consequently that we are the lower most part of the body so that 〈◊〉 the feete or the legs Then my masters you that haue made so fâ—ne aâ— Anotomie of the Masse at my request make another of the ministrie of your congregation a You were a very pleasant man be like that could thus play your selfe a fit of mirth and when you had done daunce after your owne pipe it seemes you thought that the sport then would be so pleasant that no beholder could forbare laughter If you should see such another as Apelles that would paint a man and that he had drawen his head and without painting the rest of his bodie he had set his feete vnder his eares what would you saâ—â— to such a Table Spectatum admissi risum teneatis amici Would you not thinke that he was a simple painter or else a great Iester Euen so doe you deserue that one should laugh at your ministerie b This is vntrue and a grosse slaÌ„der for we hold and teach that euer since Christ to our daies there haue bene both shepheards and sheepe ioyning with vs in the vnity of faith therfore you laugh at your owne shadow and vaine fansie For you will ioine your Church if it may bee so called vnto the church of the Apostles without setting forth anie members betweene them You take but scant measure when you will cut of all the Bishops Pastours and doctours that haue beene from the Apostles time till our daies they being the members that followe the head of the church This maie well be called a new Religion or to saie the truth it is a meere presumption to flie without winges or to climbe without a ladder And I saie to you againe that this is not the waie to followe the counsell of the great Sheepheard that I mentioned before who doeth saie vnto vs that if we will not misse the waie of the Catholicks we ought to follow the flocke of those sheepe that haue gone before vs that is to saie that we should reckon c But thâ—s in truth yours caÌ„not do therefore yours is not the Catholicke Church by your owne reason by succession the Pastours that haue succeeded in continuance of one kinde of doctrine the which as we haue shewed the Catholicke church doeth and hath euer done The XI Chapter As though you had most substaÌ„tially proued by Caluins words that we cut of all Christians betwixt the Apostles and vs in this Chapter you vrge the metaphor of a body whereunto vsually the church of Christ is compared whereupon you gather that as there is an orderly connexion and situation of members in a body so there must be in the church and that therefore our church must
the vaine successioÌ„ of persons wherw t you decked yourselues they haue added the successioÌ„ of true doctrine with you had corrupted So that what good soeuer was in your vocatioÌ„ ours had it also besides since they haue had confirmatioÌ„ of their ministry amongst theÌ„selues and by the consent approbation of the people amongst whoÌ„ they haue ministred The XIII Chapter IF that the good doctor * Cip. 1. epist c. 6. S. Cyprian had beene in these our daies might he not well haue saied against your schollers that which he did write against a CipriaÌ„ cals him that he speakes against Nouatianus who was a Roman and the disciple of Nouatus of Africke That Nouatus Nouatianus were two seuerall persons it appeares in Ciprian lib. 2. ep st 8. 9. Nouatus there needed no other but insteede of Nouatus to put in Caluinus or Zuinglius nomine mutato de vobis fabula narrabitur Seeing that the saied S. Ciprian doeth hold affirme that Nouatus ought to be accounted as no Bishop because he succeeded no body but rather that he did make himselfe a Bishop b These words you adde for they are not in Ciprian without any imposition of haÌ„ds Then to what purpose I praie you are ye of the opinion that c This is but your slader saying for both these were and so are wee able to proue that they had sufficient warrant for their calling Caluin Zuinglius are such faithfull ministers considering that they are as farre from prouing the confirmation of their ministrie as euer was Nouatus You will answere mee that you haue no neede of the imposition of hands of the Papists superstitious Idolaters infidels But this maketh your cause neuer the better for if you are so scrupulous by nature that it goeth against your consciences to come to kneele to our Bishops you should I say in tunes past haue required your ancient ministers to haue giuen you a warrant for the confirmation of your estate when one doeth demande of you since when your Religion began you are not content to claime the beginning froÌ„ the Apostles but rather stepping hardlie forwarde ye are not content to staie at Dauid or Abraham but you must needes fetch it from Abel d Yea euen from that doctrine that God taught Adam and Eue in Paradise though it grieue you yea from Adam And if one should spurre you forward you would go I knowe not whether Then seeing that your church is so ancient and that it hath indured till our daies if we will beleeue you it is not like to be true that it hath beene destitute altogether of ministers for although it be so that God did greatlie afflict the Israelites with the captiuitie of Babylon yet did he neuer leaue them without comfort of good doctours such as Daniel Ezechias e Whence proue you that they had there a proâ—â—er then named Abdias Or that there was then any Prop â—â—named Ezâ—chias but it may be you would haue saied Ezechiel Abdias and manie others Euen so you that thinke in your owne heades to bee the people of God I cannot thinke if it bee so hee would so haue giuen you ouer as to want ministers to comfort you in your afflictions and to ordeine your ministerie by the in position of handes f These 2. whiles they were yours and so others as Luther Lucer Capito Carolstadius OecolaÌ„padius and the rest had calling either to be priests or to be ordred by your owne Bishops or at least to be doctors of Diuinity by the vniuersitie wherein they were brought vp And after these two were ours the one had an ordinary calling by the presbytery magistrate and people of Geneuae the other of Zurich and so had the rest in the places where they taught What staies you that you doe not go to them seing that you haue nothing to doe with ours And if you say that you haue done so doe vs so much pleasure as to let vs heare their naÌ„es in what time they did florish or otherwise you maie pardon vs if wee giue no credit to your fained imaginations The XIII Chapter YOU boldly adde vnto Cyprians wordes these words without any impositioÌ„ of haÌ„ds for neither where the other words of his with you recite are nor yet any where in that epistle doeth he once mention the ceremony of imposition of haÌ„ds Neither can Cyprians saying against Nouatianus whom you cal wrongfully and ignorantly Nouatus truly be applied either to Caluin or Zuinglius seing they had as I haue read the ordinary calling vocation of the times wherin they liued euen from your selues For as for Caluin his father got him a prebend or benefice in a Cathedrall church and a curateship in a towne hard by of a Bishop of yours where he was borne which would not haue beene giuen him vnles he had beene within orders I think And Zwinglius it is wel knoweÌ„ was a CanoÌ„ in the cathedral church of Zurich 2. or 3. years there liuing preaching before he was ours And so I read the other preached also in his cure before he was ours whereby it should seeme that the one had imposition of hands to holy orders as you terme them of some Bishop of France and the other of some Bishop likewise of Germany Now after when as by force of the trueth they grew to be of our Religion so came out of Babylon to vs they both were according to the order of those churches where they serued called orderly to the ministry of the Gospell where also they both succeeded others that went before them Neither of which could Nouatianus truely alleadge for himselfe and therefore Ciprian saith that he was neither in the church nor Bishop But seeing we account our church so ancient as that when we are asked when our Religion began we will say it hath beene euen from AdaÌ„ also that euer since it hath endured and continued you say it is not likely that it hath at any time beene altogether destitute of ministers For though God did afflict the Israelites for their sinnes with the captiuity of Babylon yet he did neuer leaue them without coÌ„fort of good doctours as Daniel Ezechiel Abdias and others therefore seing we haue nothing to do with yours we either haue or should haue sought them out haue taken imposition of hands of them which if we haue done you wish vs to tell you their names when and where they florished To answer you indeede for the substance of our Religion we say it is the same with God himselfe first taught AdaÌ„ in paradise For first he was taught to serue God not according to his owne will but according to the law that God gaue him Secondly he being found a traÌ„sgressour of that holy will of God after he was brought to see his sin the danger thereof he is sent for recouery by Gods promise only to the promised
seede and then is he taught how to liue in his vocation wherein lieth the sum of that Religion which wee now teach and preach For first we teach men how to serue God according to his owne reuealed wil not according to their owne fansie as you doe Secondly finding men many waies to decline from this rule wee labour to make them see their sins and the danger thereof which wheÌ„ we haue done we send theÌ„ only to Iesus Christ for help and comfort In both with you also offend first whiles you keepe men froÌ„ seeing the multitude and grieuousnes of their sinnes by extenuating the power of original sin by making maÌ„ beleeue that the fulfilling of the law is now possible vnto him that many sins of their owne nature for their littlenes are veniall and that the first motions of sinne arising from the corruption of our owne hearts not consented vnto are no sin and then you go from this most ancient order of God in that you send men for their recouerie not only to Iesus Christ but to their owne freewill merits and satisfaction to a nuÌ„ber of thinges very trifling and ridiculous by vse and doing whereof you would perswade them they shall purchase to themselues remission of their sinnes In the 3. point also we follow the patterne of our heauenly father calling vpon euery man according to his calling to get his liuing in an honest vocation with the sweate of his browes and shewing woman that in lawfull wedlocke if by nature or otherwise she haue not the gift of continencie though to her paine sorrow she is for the encreasing of Gods kingdome and the common weale wherein shee liueth to conceaue and beare children whereas you drawe both the one and the other herefrom into Hermitages Cloisters and Nunries there to liue an idle life out of all vocation profitable to the Church or common weale And we are perswaded that this Religion and consequently a Church to holde and embrace it hath euer since vnto these daies continued And we graunt you also that though God for the sinnes of his people doe afflict his Church diuers times and that grieuously as he did the Isralites with the 70. yeares captiuity yet then he doeth not leaue them without teachers to comfort them and therefore in all ages and times doe constantly beleeue in one place or other that this our ReligioÌ„ and Church hath had some such Yet you must take this with you that in such times of the afflictioÌ„ of the Church the ordinary state of the ministrie thereof hath often failed For you haue heard Azariah the prophet tel king Asa in respect of such times as were before his time that Israell a long season had beene without the true God without prophet to teach and without lawe 2. Chron. 15. And in the 3 of Hosea you may reade prophecied that the children of Israell shall remaine many daies without a King without a Prince without an offring without an image without an Ephod and without Teraphim by which wordes the Prophet plainely foresheweth an interruption should be of their outward ordinary visible ministry And euen in respect of the time that you meÌ„tion it appeareth in the 2. of the Imâ—â—â—ntat that the like was fulfilled in the Church in respect of that time of their captiuity in Babylon For there Ieremie lamenting the state of the Church then saieth The Lord hath caused the feastes and Sabbothes to be forgotten in Sion and hath despised in the indignation of his wrath the King and the Priests the Lord hath forsaken his altar hath abhorred his sanctuary And when those prophecies of the florishing of Antichrist 2. Thes 2. and Reuel 17. and that of the Churches being driued into the wildernes and there remaining for a time Reuel 12. should be fulfilled who seeth not that it is no strange thing but a thing plainly foreshewed should be that neither the church herselfe nor her teachers should be very visible and apparent And therefore speaking of those times when indeede those prophesies were verified as you doe you doe our church and her ministers great double wrong first in thus chasing theÌ„ into the wildernes there to saue themselues from your fury and then yet in exacting at our handes the names of them whom God by thus hiding of them preserued to continue his church And yet as I haue shewed you before cap. 4. in the mercie of God wheÌ„ your AntichristiaÌ„ Synagogue florished most in Bohemia other places the Christians called WaldeÌ„ses were many and has diuers assemblies schools churches and ministers Why theÌ„ say you haue you not or do you not run to theÌ„ that by theÌ„ you may haue your ministers ordeined or confirmed if you haue tell vs their names that did it I answere you we haue thought it needles seeing as I haue shewed otherwise both our former later ministers nearer home had both ordinatioÌ„ confirmation that well enough serued their turnes Besides I am sure you caÌ„not be ignoraÌ„t but it hath ben an ordinary thing with God wheÌ„ the ordinary ministers of the church consequently the outward face couÌ„tenance thereof hath bene corrupted gon froÌ„ y truth waies of the lord to raise extraordinarily prophets and others to seeke procure the reformatioÌ„ thereof as it appeareth by raising vp from time to time Prophets amongst the Israelites in the ruins and corruptions of his church who should haue had wrong offred if they should not haue bene receiued as the Lords ministers vntill either they could get ordinary admission of the Prelates then to reform whose corruptions they were seÌ„t or vntil they could shew the names of some other prophets that had ordinarily succeeded others also ordeined them Which is the very case of the Lords faithful ministers whom he hath vsed first in any nation without the ordinary calling of the daies immediatly going before to detect lay opeÌ„ the horrible corruptioÌ„s thrust vpon the Church by the papacy For they fouÌ„d that the word of God was concealed hid froÌ„ the people that insteede thereof they were fed with the inuentions and traditions of men y the honour that was due to God alone was turned vnto meÌ„ vnto images that the bloud of Christ was ineffect trodeÌ„ vnderfoot in that so many by waies were sought to atteine to heaueÌ„ by besides Christ that the sacrament of his body bloud was turned into grosse Idolatry the vse quite peruerted To be short they found al the holy scripture prophaned poisoned which the Popes glosses false interpretatioÌ„s These things therfore being thus the lord reueling vnto theÌ„ his truth because the time was come that Antichrist must be detected the lord gaue vnto theÌ„ the spirit of courage and boldnes first to notifie these corruptions to the Prelates of your church and to craue at their haÌ„ds the reformation thereof but finding that that would not be because sathaÌ„ will
wil he deny before his father in heauē And S. Paul doth saie Ro. 10. f And so haue ours all wayes in due time and place though to the losse of thousands of their liues done that with the hart one doth beleeue to iustice with the mouth one must cōfes to saluatiō g This is but your cuckowes song conteining neither trueth nor honesty But to saie the truth your religiō was not thē foūd out the Grādfathers great Grandfathers of Caluin had neuer dreāpt of the heresies that now their reformed childe hath set so newly abroach And therefore thinke it not strange if that those people that are not light headed send you to preach in new found landes as one that hath here at home giuen manifestlie iudgement against himselfe h Are you not ashamed to ly so impudently and to reason so foolishly confessing as wee haue alleadged aboue that the Church of God hath vsed the imposition of hands yours hath not done so and therefore it doeth follow that it is not of God that that doeth follow consequentlie is that it is of the deuil For we know that you allow i Neither would you but that your belly is your God and that you mind earthly things vnto which purposes that doctrine serueth you fitly no purgatorie I mean no meane betwene thē both The XIIII Chapter HOw you haue answered Caluin and proued your vocation to be of God by that which now the reader hath heard both parts say let him iudge Our answere to the like demande I haue giuē you Chap. 9. when you first called for it But hauing demanded this now againe of vs insteed of pursuing your demād as one that had streight forgotten what you saied you are in hand againe with our saying to your charge your popes bishops il liues with twise or thrise you were in hād wtal before where you haue your ful answer Herein you say in railing you giue vs the preeminēce but you do so but in words for indeed trueth as al your late books fraught with nothing more then this kinde of Rhetoricke to bring the seruants of God vniustly into hatred doe proue none cā go beyond you herein And as for that which we say of your Popes bishops your own storie-writers and manifest experience doe iustifie to be true therfore cānot iustly be coūted railing But you find fault with vs that hauing writē the lewd liues of your bishops Popes on the one side of the leafe we set not down on the other side in the meane time the succession of those good ones that we had This law you nether haue nor cā alwaies obserue your selfe For though you haue had many good Popes bishops yet a great while your good ones haue bene as hard to finde as cole-black swans And yet you please your selfe and your frends that take pleasure in your giving scoffing in asking vs when your Popes behaued thēselues il at Rome who were the holy doctors at Geneua whē your doctors preached against God vnder what signe our ministers lodged al this kind of Rhetorick of yours is groūded vpō a false principle namely that the Church and ministers thereof haue bene alwaies must be so visible as that in al times demonstration may be made thereof cōtrary to these often alleadged prophecies 2. Thess 2. Reu. 12. 17. And the thing that deceiueth you nourisheth in you this errour is that you expoūd the places of scripture which are vttered concerning the continuāce spiritual beauty of the church of the elect the true heauenly Hierusalē spouse of Christ as spokē of the cōtinuance of particuler Churches or of the outward order state of the Church militant onely and that you either wilfully or otherwise cannot distinguish betwixt the being and continuing of the Church and her pastors and the maner of their being and cōtinuing and so you construe those places that proue her being and their continuing as though therupō followed your maner of visible and apparent being also as though there were no being or continuing of the Church but in your maner Whereas in Israel in Ahabs time you haue heard both the Church and ministers therof ther continued in that euen in that kingdōe Obadiah had hid 100 prophets and God had reserued vnto himselfe 7000. that had not bowed their knees to Baal yet not in your maner For Eliah was not able to make such demonstration thereof who they were and where they were as you require of vs for he thought himselfe alone 1. King 18. 19. O but you very like a diuine proue out of Mat. 10. Ro. 10. because Christ hath saied him that denieth me before mē wil I deny before my heauenly father and Paul requireth aswel confession with the mouth to saluation as beleife with the hart to iustification that therefore they could not be faithful beleeuers because they did hide themselues As though euery one were a denier of Christ that hideth himselfe frō the fury of the persecutour Or as though none confesse with their mouth to saluation that so hide themselues What think you then of the 100 prophetes before named And of Eliah himselfe who as it appeareth in those places hid themselues from Ahab and Iesebels furie Haue you forgotten that the same Christ saieth in the same Chap to his Apostles If they persecute you in one City flie to another And that the same Paul himselfe did sundry times by hiding himselfe from the hands of his persecutours saue his life As you may read Act. 17. and elswhere Who though he were assured in a vision by reuelation from God that with safety of life hee should come to testifie of Christ and his Gospel at Rome yet refused not al good and lawful means to haue himselfe conueied away and so to escape the hands of his bloudy persecutors the Iewes which had solemnly boūd thēselues with an oath that they would neither eat nor drinke til they had killed him Act. 23.11.12 Your diuinity is not so simple I thinke but that you vnderstand that as long as a Christian carieth that minde and purpose that wheresoeuer he is he will be ready boldly to yeeld a sound confession of his faith and therefore when he is called thereunto and iustly occasioned is ready to perfourme that purpose of his and doeth it indeed that man cannot bee saied to deny Christ or not to confesse him with his mouth though by flying and hiding himselfe as long as he may lawfully he seeke to keepe himselfe for the further good of Gods Church out of the handes of his persecutours And therefore you were much to blame by thus wresting of these places of Scriptures to seeke to abuse your Reader But our Religion you say was not found out then and Caluins great grandfather had not once dreamed of his Religion and therefore no maruell though they could not be found that were the
with great approbation by men of your side to bring the poore Indians by force in subiection vnto you And what extreame force and crueltie hath beene vsed of late yeares to subdue the poore Christians of Cabriers Merindoll and other places thereabout and to roote out the professours of the Gospell and their fauourers in France I am perswaded that the Turks neuer vsed more faithles tyrannical and monstrous dealings then the stories and the euidence of the thing declares you haue vsed against these And therefore it being so vsuall a thing with you as it is to promote your Religion by force of all men you are the vnfittest to charge others with that as with a fault which you account so laudable in your selues And yet as though you had saied so much against vs for this as that thereupon it must needs appeare to euery man that we haue neither reason of our saying or doing you further charge vs that herein in seeking namely the reformation of your Church we haue taken vpon vs cōtrary to all laws both diuine and humane being also a party to be our owne iudge wherein you say vntruely of vs for we alwaies haue beene contented to submit both our sayings and doings to the iudgement of the Lord himselfe speaking vnto vs in the writen word and by the same we haue had our sayings and doings often examined and tried to be sound and lawfull in nationall and prouinciall Synodes before we haue attempted the reformation you speake of And secondly herein you charge vs as you did before with that which you your selues are openly guilty of For though your Pope be the speciall party accused by vs yet in all matters in question betwixt you and vs you wil haue him to be the supreme iudge and so the questiō being betwixt you vs whither you be the church or we and whither you hold the trueth or we no other triall will you admit but that we must be iudged by him whither it be so or no. Wherein you deale as if the felon at the bar should refuse all other triall but to be tried by the principall in that felony whither he be guilty or no. Now wheras yet in this our dealing you would resemble vs to him that gaue Christ a blow c. Your errour is manifold therein it seemeth either your negligence was much or that your wits were benūmed For where the story you allude vnto is Ioh. 18. it is quoted in your booke Iohn 15. neither doe you hit of Christs words in rehearsing the answere to him that smote him nor yet is there any reason or similitude made to appeare betwixt our dealing in seeking to reform your Church that fellow Christs answer was this if I haue euill spoken beare witnesse if the euill but if I haue well spoken why smitest thou me And you set downe his answere thus if we haue done il proue it before the iudge seeing that you are our accusers as for the resemblance betwixt him that smote Christ and vs you shew not wherein it is neither can I gesse wherein you ment it But indeed your dealing with vs considered he carieth a liuely resemblance of a number of you whose property it is to bring vs for our holy profession before your high priest and his chaplaines and then if we chance to answere boldly for our own defence as Christ did though neuer so directly to the purpose to checke vs and strike vs as he did our sauiour for your great prelates may not so be answered But perhaps you wil say that the words that you set downe containe your answere to vs when we checke you for your doings why then set you them downe as the answere made by Christ to him that smote him And if the words be taken as your answere to vs meaning therein such a iudge as either the Pope or one of his sworne men that we should be drawen before such iudges by your owne law here alleaged is against reason for they can be no competent iudges because they themselues are principall parties Our accusation of you we are alwaies ready to proue before the Lord of heauen and earth and before any other indifferent iudges by such deponents and witnesses as will not bee corrupted either by you or vs namely by the prophets and Apostles speaking without all partiality in the Canonical scriptures Exemption from this iudgement we neuer sought nor will and if your religion flye this kinde of triall and iudgement God hath giuen vs power euen thereby to iudge that you are such as ought to be driuen from possession of such a corrupt religion that dare not shew the face in this court of iudgment because then it knoweth it should bee foyled But yet to holde your Clyents in some lyking of your religion you once againe confidently bragge that it is of one thousand fiue hundred yeares continuance and vpwards and therefore you require vs that would disswade you therefrom to shew our commission sealed and confirmed as so great a matter doeth require and as Moses his was by miracles which in this case to be as necessary for vs as it was for him you striue to proue in the rest of this Chapter and that otherwise you are not to beleeue vs. Wherefore because all this you require at our handes and thinke you may doe it stil only vpon this supposition that your religion is thus ancient as you bragge First let vs consider of that point and then proceede to the rest which you infer thereupon Herein that which I haue writen already both in the later ende of the preface and in my answere to your 4 Chapter doeth sufficiētly discouer the shameles follie and vanity of this your brag howbeit because I perceiue what you lacke in trueth in this matter your purpose is to make vp with the setting a stout countenance vpon it once againe I will take the paines to strip your Church and religiō of this visard of antiquity which done for al your lewd brags I doubt not but that both the one and the other shal be found a yoūgling a new vpstart in comparison of that which you pretend First therfore to begin withal in that the greeke Churches which quite brake of communion with you in the time of Gregory the 9 in the yeare 1230 which is now not aboue 360. yeares ago haue not yet allowed the masse to be a propitiatory sacrifice for the quicke and dead do minister no priuate masses either in the Church or else where reserue not after the ministration of this sacrament any part thereof nor deny the ministring thereof vnder both kindes to any communicant in that also they neuer yet coulde be brought to allow of the supremacy of your Pope nor of your doctrines of transubstantiation extreame vnction purgatory of forbidding their ministers the vse of lawful mariage in which points now a great part of your religion consists euen thereby it may
deal with such an one as he had thē to approue his calling by miracles wheras ours in this is far more substātiallie iustified by the scriptures frō whēce our doctrine hath warrāt that hath wrought this effect then it could haue by miracles For as whē the law was first published with al the ceremonies therof it was needful because thē it was new that Moses credit the publisher therof the law it selfe should be cōfirmed by miracle but whē in the raigne of Iosiah Hilkiah the priest foūd the booke of the law which had lien hid before a long time so did but reuiue or renue the same law that was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles he wrought no miracles neither was there any called for or looked for at his hāds for it was needles Euē so whē the ceasing of the ceremonial seruice of the law was to end the new priesthood of Christ to come in place thereof so withal that then first it should be notified both to Iew and gentile who was and is the very person of the Messias what new gouernment sacraments he would haue in his house it was necessary that miracles should be wrought to confirme the ministry of thē that should teach these new strange thinges first vnto the world but now these things hauing bene already then sufficiently cōfirmed by miracles we comming in these later daies of the world and not taking vpon vs to preach any other doctrine then the former and so onely renuing and reuiuing the knowledge of that which by the ignoraunce and wickednes of former times had lyen in great part hid no more at our hands ought miracles to be looked for Indeede if it could be proued but once that we labour to set abroach a new doctrine as you often in wordes charge vs that neuer was before sufficiently confirmed by miracles or if the maner that we vsed to reuiue it by were any other but the ancient ordinary way that God hath alwaies allowed in his Church there were yet some colour of reason why they should bee thus called for at our handes But seeing wee stand vpon that point and haue alwaies done that our religion is the very same and no other that Christ and his Apostles taught which by them in their times was confirmed by miracles and the maner of our dealing to spread the same againe is but the ordinary ministerie of the worde and sacraments by them left for the same purpose vnto the church there is no reason at all in matching vs thus as you doe with Moses and in requiring miracles of vs as of him And vntill you can proue by the scriptures that the doctrine that we preach is false which you neuer shall be able to doe the three places which you cite out of Ieremie 14.27 29. vttered by him to admonish the people in his time to take heede of suffering of themselues to be seduced with the false and lying Prophets that were in those daies make nothing at all against vs nor yet appertaine to the matter in hand which was to proue that seeing we worke no miracles therefore our commission cannot be good in taking vpon vs to reforme you For in these places euē by the words as they are set down by your selfe it most euidently appeares that he warned the people to take heede onely of such Prophets as prophecied falsly in the name of God hauing no vocation from him and labouring to seduce the people by false visions naughty diuinations southsayings and their owne dreames whereas we haue ordinary vocation from God preach nothing but trueth warranted by his word and neuer vse but alwaies abhor the vse of all these meanes that they vsed to seduce the people by But herein most certaine it is that the Lord most plainely forewarneth his people of such as you be For you be they indeede that were neuer sent of Christ but of Antichrist and that preach false doctrine as doeth appeare not only by the dissenting but by the contrariety of your doctrine in a number of points from the vndoubted word of God as I haue noted in sundrie places in this my answere to you and then whom neuer any false Prophets in the world more relied vpon false visions diuinations southsayings fond dreames for indeede they are the best most vsuall pillers grounds of your Popish doctrine For what is more common with you then to the ende these may haue place to complaine and by long rhetoricall discourses to make what shew you can of the obscurity vnsufficiency and vncertainty of the word writen that so with some colour you may shew the triall of your doctrine by that touchstone and all because in your owne consciences you know that it cannot be iustified thereby And then when thus you haue satisfied your selues in weakning what you may the credit of the scriptures to prepare a way for your selues to fly from them then you breake out into commendation of the word vnwriten traditions and liuely practise of the church that so by that window you may thrust in and out to the Church whatsoeuer pleaseth you be it neuer so fond a visiō diuination or dreame of your owne drowsy heads But yet once againe for lacke of miracles howsoeuer the case stand whither we be sent of God or no for your refusing to yeeld vnto vs you thinke you may pleade simplicity and ignorance for your excuse as Abimelech did Gen. 20. especially you say seeing you are willed not to beleeue euery spirit and seeing you reade that the Angell of darknes will sometime trāsforme himselfe into the shape of an Angell of light c. But withall you must remember that you are willed to search the scriptures Iohn 5. so to trie the spirits whither they be of God or no 1. Ioh. 4. For they are able to make the mā of God wise to saluatiō thorowly to furnish him to all good workes 2. Tim. 3. which if you did as you ought thereby you shall be driuen to perceaue that not only our calling is of God but that also we teach the trueth according to the same and that therefore notwithstanding we worke no miracles yet your ignorance cannot be simple ignorance as Abimelechs was but either wilfull or of an idle peeuish negligence and therefore such as cannot excuse you in refusing to beleeue vs. And as it is writen that sathan will so transforme himselfe as you write and that we should take heede what way we take for there is a way that seemeth good and yet leadeth to destruction so you must remember that still the due consideration of the writen word is the meanes to preserue vs frō the dāger of both For thereby Christ hath taught vs to withstand him Mat. 4. euen when he would seeme to fortify his temptations with the word writen it selfe whereby else shall a young man learne to frame his waies aright but by taking heede thereunto according
accounted amongst vs a soūd preacher of the gospell hath either sayed that thus hee ought to be receaued to preach the gospell or hath attempted so to doe For it is generally held and receiued of al the Churches that professe the gospell and so lykewise is their vniforme practise that none be suffered to take vpō them to preach the gospel vnlesse it be knowen and sufficiently appeare that by the ordinary calling of some according to the order of the Church where hee is ordered he be sufficiently authorished so to doe And wel knowen it is that there is no Church that professes the Gospel indeed but the order thereof is that none meddle in the ministry therein without commissiō as it pleaseth you to speake either from some conueniēt number of pastours or from some bishop or from both by the order of that church appointed to looke to and to take care of that busines As for the Anabaptists a captaine whereof you named in the former Chapter we know that in their fantastical spirit they both hold and practise as here you charge vs but therin and therfore we dislike condemne them as much as you And you know we renounce communion with them we coūt them heretickes therfore sundry of vs purposely haue writ large and vehement bookes against them you doe vs therfore great wrong to charge vs with that which is their fault which you cānot proue to be ours But you wil say I am sure for in your former Chap. you seeme to deriue Mūcer the Anabaptist his petigree frō Luther that we may worthely so be charged for they are such as spring of and from vs. But herein againe you offer vs as great wrong as the seruants of the good seeds man that sowed only good seed in his field should haue done him if they had saied that the tares that came vp therewith in the same field had beene there sowed by him because when Christ his Apostles and faithfull ministers had first preached the gospel there were foūd in the same age springing vp with the same amongst the professours therof Ebionites Cerinthians Nicolaitans Simonists and sundry other fantastical heretickes as Hymeneus Philetus Hermogines and Phygetus was it any reason therefore that Christ or any of his faithfull ministers or that the gospel it selfe should be charged with their fond cōceits And yet as absurd sencelesse as this kinde of dealing were it is both here with you oft in this your booke vsuall is it with all of your spirit this now for want of better matter against vs by this means with the simple people to labour the discredit and disgrace both of vs our churches and religion But you content not your selfe with falsely charging vs to say that we ought to be receiued to preach the gospel extraordinarily but also you lay to our charge that we seeke still to defend an ill cause and an extraordinary commission This you onely say as your maner is but neither proofe nor shadow of proofe you bring neither indeede can you For our cause is the very trueth and our commission is but that ordinary commission of teaching and confirming the same vnto men that Christ hath left by his owne ordināce to all his faithfull ministers vnto the worlds ende And for proofe hereof we appeale indeede to the holy scriptures which in this case euen for the reason by you alleadged wee are not ashamed to confesse to be the sound touchstone of trueth and to be preferred in credit before miracles Yet you some thing amplifie and adde vnto our speech in that you say we affirme that the scriptures as they are alleadged by vs alone ought to bee of more credit then all the miracles wrought by the Apostles Well this our reason to iustifie our cause and commission you say is a notable way to deceaue the simple and vnlearned I wonder that you were not ashamed and affraied so to write For you cannot be ignorant that to confute errour to proue trueth to exhort to vertue and to dehort from vice Christ and his Apostles and so from time to time the ancient fathers what aduersaries soeuer they had to deale withal vsed alwaies to flie to this touchstone and for the most certaine concluding of their purpose did alleadge scripture but your shift will be that these alleadged the scripture rightly which you speake not of and we alleadge the scripture corruptly and in a wrong sense therefore you would haue your words in all this your discourse against our alleadging of scripture to bee taken as writen not simply against alleadging of scripture but against alleadging it as we doe Then I answer that that you should haue proued that we alleadge the scripture in a wrong sense but this you haue not once gone about only you proue that bare alleadging of scripture cannot nor may not so countenance our cause as we pretēd for that sundry heretickes haue countenanced their heresies by alleadging scripture and that often very plentifully About this you spend sundry Chapters and withall to shew your selfe to be able if you list to be a cunning in wresting of the scriptures as any of the heretickes you mention all which is to no purpose vnles withall you had proued which you shall neuer be able to doe that we alleadging them doe alleadge them so likewise For we are not so simple or ignorāt that we know not that the scripture hath beene and may be misalleadged as you write and therefore we neuer go about to perswade the people that they must and ought to beleeue vs for our bare alleadging of scripture but for that by the sound rules of interpreting of them we proue forcibly and inuincibly vnto their consciences that we alleadge them according to their true and natiue meaning We call vpon them with Christ to search the scriptures themselues Iohn 5 39. and with Paul we exhort them so to trauaile therein as that they may haue the worde of God dwell euen in themselues plentifully in all wisedome Coloss 3.16 that so according to the commended example of the noble men of Baerea Act. 17.11 and the doctrine of S. Iohn they may trie the spirits of them that would seeme to teach them a right before they beleeue them 1. Iohn 4.15 we confesse gladly with Peter 2. Epist cap. 1. 20. 21. that no prophesie nor part of the scripture is of any priuate interpretation and all such interpretations we count and iudge priuate and humane whosoeuer gyues or allowes them that are not indeede soundly agreeing with the minde of the authour of the scripture the holy Ghost And therefore we hold and teach for asmuch as the naturall man vnderstandeth not the thinges of the spirit of God 1. Cor. 1.15 that no man in alleadging and citing of the scripture◠is to trust to his owne wisedome or learning but according to the counsell of S. Iames finding himselfe in this case to lacke wisedome we exhort all men
which is but a mā often times an ignorant wicked man to vnderstand the scriptures and haue indeede no true acquaintance with the spirit of God nor any true desire after knowledge but rather after ignorāce because that is the best foūdation of your Religiō And therefore as the fashiō is you measuring another 〈…〉 by your owne happily iudge them to be as hard to all others as to your selues and thereupon by the hardnes thereof discourage them from reading them as much as you cā I am sure whatsoeuer you or any of your fellowes prate hereof that therein is conteined the will and testament of our heauenly father and that this pertaineth to simple and vnlearned artificers as well as to the great learned men of this world For therein and thereby I know that God is no accepter of persons and therefore so far of is it that any hardnes of tearmes or phrases therein conteined to expresse vnto thē or bequeath vnto them their heauenly fathers behestes and bequestes should driue them from the reading and studying of thē that so much the more paines and diligence they ought to vse to atteyne to the right sence thereof For we see in our earthly fathers will the harder the tearines and phrases be wherein he hath giuen vs any thing or willeth vs to doe any thing nature reason hath taught vs not therefore to take and bestow lesse paines cost but a great deale more to seeke to vnderstand the same how much more ought it to be so in this case And I am perswaded that oure heauenly father hath so tempered hardnes with plainenes plainenes with hardnes in the scriptures that the plainenes might allure and encourage euery simple man to reade study them with hope to vnderstand them that the other might admonish him to be no negligent but a careful wise peruser of them so both together make euery one a willing and studious reader of them Which it should seeme both Fulgentius in his sermon of the confessours Gregory in his epist to Leander had obserued in noting that God had so ordred the scriptures as the therein he had prouided for the strong man meate for the weakling milke and that there both the Elephāt might swimme and the lambe safely wade These things notwithstāding whatsoeuer else might be saied further to this purpose I perceiue that you in this your lōg discourse of the hereticks abusing and wresting the scriptures cared not how litle otherwise that which you wrote was to the purpose so the thereby you might gaine thus much as by such experiments to withdraw the mindes of men from the loue study of the scriptures For I know they greatly comber you stād in your way and therefore by your wils you cared not if the people neuer hearde of them wherof you haue giuen an inuincible demonstration in that you haue kept them hidden and shut vp from them as long as you 〈◊〉 vnder the close bushell of an vnknowen tongue And your goodwill towardes thou hath otherwise beene sufficiently bewrayed by the vnreuerent and disgracing speeches vttered by your chiefe great Champions against them as it is well knowen too too often For first for their authority though now some of your side would seeme in that point to speake more modestly not long ago Piggins a great man in his time with you in the first booke and second Chapter of his Hierarchie hath flatly writen that all authority of scripture now necessarily dependeth vpon the authority of the Church For otherwise we could not beleeue them but because we beleeue the Church that giues testimony vnto them adding further that Marke and Luke were not of themselues sufficient witnesses of the gospell and that the gospels were not writen that they might be aboue our faith and Religion but rather to be subiect thereunto And Ecchius another great doctour of yours of the same time in his Enchiridion writing of the authority of the church saieth that the scriptures were not of authenticke authority but through the authority of the Church and therefore he boldly affirmeth that to say that greater is the authority of the scriptures then of the Church is hereticall and the contrary is Catholicke And whereas it was obiected by Brentius in the confession of Wittingberge that one of your crue meaning thereby one Herman had not beene ashamed to say that the scriptures should haue had no greater estimation or credit then AEsops fables but for the testimony of the church Hosius a Bishop and Cardinall of yours writing against the saied Brentius in his third booke being of the authority of the scripture defends it as well inough spoken for saieth he vnles the church had taught vs which is scripture Canonicall it could haue had small authority with vs. Likewise teacheth Melchior Canus in his second book seuēth Chapter of his places of diuinity that it appears not to vs that the scriptures are of God but by the testimony of the Church insomuch that she must determine saieth he what bookes be Canonicall and her authority is a certaine rule whereby either to receiue or to reiect bookes into or out of the Canon Of the same iudgemēt is Canisius in his Catechisme ca. 30. sect 16. and Stapleton in his first Chapter of his ninth booke of the principles of doctrine with a great rabble moe of your writers of greatest account since Luther And this position so liked Ecchius that in the place before cited he writes of the margent Achilles against this position to insinuate that this is a speciall tried captaine of yours And yet when all comes to all your meaning all this while is by the Church to vnderstand onely the Pope forasmuch as none but hee hath the tongue of the Church in weelding For Catherin in Epistolam ad Galatas cap. 2. holdeth that it is the Popes proper priuiledge to canonize or to reiect from the Canon scriptures which is also Canus fift proposition in effect in the Chapter before named This being your meaning Leo the tenth being one of your Popes what Canonicall authority haue you left the scripture if it be true that is writen of him that he talking with Bembus then a Cardinall cōtemptuously saied speaking of the Gospell that that fable of Christ had beene very profitable vnto them And as for the vncertainty of the sēce insufficiēcy of thē who knoweth not what cost vsually alwaies vpon euery light occasion you are ready to bestow in amplifying the hardnes of them in either preferring therefore or equalling the vnwritē word with you call the liuely practise of the church before thē both for plainnes sufficiency Whē you are in this vaine both the fathers of Colen shall be iustified and Piggius also by your Andradius Orthodox Epl. li. 2. p. 104. though they cōpared the scriptures to a nose of waxe he to a leaden lesbian rule and to their further
surest way of declaring the scriptures to expoūd one scripture by another in his 3. booke of Christian doctrine cap. 26. and in those bookes writen of Christian doctrine many moe very profitable Which way Chrys thought so sure a way that he saieth flatly The holy scriptures expound thēselues and suffer not the Reader to erre in his 12. Homil vpon Gen And yet for all this to this triall will not you of the Church of Rome be brought neither for the triall of your interpretations nor yet for determining of this question whither you haue the spirit of trueth or no. Christ and his Apostles were contented to put themselues for triall of their doings to this but your Popes thinke scorne to looke so lowe yea rather they will haue all questions wherein they are principall parties themselues tryed by themselues and you and they crie out that this is not the readiest way to ende such questions But who is so madde as to thinke that you can finde out a better way then Christ and his Apostles vsed You will send vs say some of you for the triall of these matters vnto the doctours and councels and yet when it commeth to the point vnles they and their sayings please you yee reiect them also And you cannot denie but that oftentimes also it is farre more disputable and doubtfull what was their meaning then what is the meaning of the Scripture and you know also that it is an vsuall thing with them to sende vs backe againe to the Scriptures for triall of their writings as it appeareth in Augustines 19. Epist to Hirom and in his 111. Epist to Fortunatian And therefore indeede say you what you will this is the safest surest and readiest way of triall of this and all other matters in question betwixt vs to bring all to the touchstone of the scriptures I would to God therfore that once you would giue ouer al other bie and indirect trials and come onely to this for then it would quickely appeare euen to the simple whither you or wee were rather to be followed For all this we ioyne with you in the later ende of your twenty three Chapter in warning men to take heede that they doe not rashly beleeue follow euery one that will pretend that they haue the scriptures on their side But whereas you write that the heresies which you will after speake of that were condēned by the Catholique church were as well more largely confirmed by scriptures thē we can thereby confirme our Religiō therein first you most vntruely report that of vs as we doubt not but to make it euident vnto the world if you would once come to any indifferent trial with vs secondly I must admonish the reader that these ancient heresies indeed were condemned by the Catholique Church but that that catholique Church was not yours nor as yours now is For the differences be infinite betwixt yours the Church thē by reason whereof there is as great difference betwixt the Church then and yours now in effect as there is betwixt ours now and yours In your recitall of the heretiques abusing the scriptures diuers things slipt from you also worthy the noting namely these that you could not content your selfe with shewing vs how they did abuse the Scriptures in wrong alleaging them but that as though your fingers itched to shew that you had as good skill therein as they you still intermingle with theirs your owne cunning in shewing how other places might be abused in like maner neither confuting in the ende their collections nor your owne how dangerous soeuer Another tricke you haue in noting the trueths impugned by them and the maner how they went to worke though neuer so vntruly yet cōfidently to set downe that the things which we impugne in you were holden by the Church in equall degree of trueth and reuerence with them that they set themselues then against and that they cried out against traditions of men and cried onely for the writen word as we doe wheras in trueth few or none of the things we condemne in you were hatched then and the contrary before hath appeared out of Irenaeus lib. 3. cap. 2. that it was their fashion to flie from the Scriptures and to accuse them as you doe and to vrge traditions that they also vsed to vrge other such like grounds for their heresies as you doe as I haue shewed cap. 3. The last is that for the most part you charge them with what you list not shewing vs where you read or finde ground for these things wherewith you charge them belike least in turning to the places examining you proofes we should to your discredit haue occasion thereby to discry in you either some malice errour ignorance or some negligence at the least For example how proue you that which you write cap. 22. that the Arrians alleadged as many or more places then the Catholicks Or that the same Church that condemned the Adamits hath condemned vs Hus and his schollers condemning them But to passe on from these things to your conclusion vpon these premisses and to that which you infer thereupon in your 26 Chapter I graunt you by that which you haue writen in the former chapters it may be seene that one ill disposed maie soone alleage scripture in a corrupt sence but what is this to proue that which you vndertooke cap. 22. that is that the holie scriptures which we alleage do not iustifie our doings If you would haue proued this indeed you should haue proued that we alleage the scriptures in a wrong sence as these did that you haue talkt on but that was to heauie a peece of worke for you therfore you thought good not once to meddle with it But yet as though either you had proued it or else that it could not but wtout proofe be graūted you you boldly affirme as these hereticks that you haue talkt of haue perished their heresies so shall we our followers if we repent not Wherunto I answere first that so repentance maie be takē that it is most true that not onely we our followers but you yours also al men else must repent or else we al you and al other shal perish but taking it as you doe for repēting of our religiō of alleaging of the scriptures which we doe for the maintenāce of it against you you haue saied nothing at al as yet to make vs once to thinke that we haue any need at al so or therof to repēt Secōdly I saie that in thus saying you haue shewed your malice boldnes more then any thing else for you haue therin vttered nothing but a blind prophets dreāe and fansie which no man of any wisedome or discretion wil make any reckoning of It is wel yet that the euidēce of the trueth hath enforced you here to confesse that it maie be seene in al the ancient ecclesiastical writers that the doctours fully
is manifestly taught in others which is your fashion altogether and we alleadge them truely to confirme onely the trueth and therefore are very well contented that our interpretations should be tried by all soūd and good rules of interpreting Whereas you adde If we say they were heretiques and abused the scriptures c. the like report you say is of vs I say the more is their fault that so report of vs for they can neuer proue it Howbeit to make your report seeme the more probable you cōpare our dealings with theirs which by your saying are very like But the reader must be aduertised that you frame their speeches doings here without booke I meane without warrant of any good authour that reporteth these things of them euen of your owne head that so you may the better make their speeches and ours alike I praie you in what good authour did you euer reade and yet here you confidently aduoutch it that the Palagians Nouatians Nestorians c. who were long dead and buried before your Pope was hatched preached that the Pope was Antichrist It may be true that you write that some of them railed against the Roman Church that then was But alas what is this for your Romish Church now which is no more like that then then an apple is like an oister Indeede this is one of your trickes wherewith you coosen the poore simple people For it is the fashion of you all when you finde in any ancient father anie thing that soundeth to the credit of the Catholique church or to the commendation of the Roman Church in their daies to alleadge it as spoken in the commendation of your Romish church now a 1000. yeares after their death whereas there is more difference betwixt yours and that which they speake of in weighty materiall points of doctrine and discipline then in yeares If your Romish Church now would returne to the state of the ancient church of Rome and grow once like that you and we should soone agree For that is the thing that we will stand vpō with you that it is you in your railing vpon our churches that according to the fashion of these ancient heretiques raile vpon the church of Rome that then was rather then we For our churches are 1000. times more like it indeed thē yours as it is now Nether are you able to produce your authours to proue that these heretiques did at euery word alleadge scripture or appeal onely thereunto For the contrary is euident both in Epiphanius Tertullian Irenaeus August and others that wrote against them For they testifie that many of them shunned the triall of the Scriptures onely and fled euen as you doe to traditions succession of fathers visions other such like motiues as councels fathers antiquity consent c. as I haue shewed cap. 3. as appeareth euidently in diuers of these fathers writings as in Tertul in praescrip contra haeret Epiphanius in many places de haeresibus Chrysost in Math 4. Irenaeus libro 3. cap. 2. August Contra Maxim lib. 1. de Baptismo contra Donatist lib. 3. cap. 2. in Ioan Tract 13. de vnitate Ecclesiae cap. 15. Epist 165. ad Generosum Who but one of your Religion would euer thus grossely abuse his simple poore Reader You yet as a man that had saied all this while nothing but that you might truely say proceede on with your comparison tell vs that they were condēned by generall Councels so are we they were found cogging knaues and so shall we Whereunto I answere that those which you call generall Councels were but late Conuenticles of your owne since the apostasie of your Church from the ancient Roman Church wherein there was indeede no freedome of a lawfull Councell enioyed and therefore whose condemnation we neede care no more for then Christ and his Apostles needed to care for the sentence of condemnation that in their times the high Priestes Scribes and Pharisees gaue of them and their doings in their councels And as for your vnmanerly prophecie we neede not esteeme it For neither is your mouth any slander nor yet doe we take you to be a true Prophet But seeing say you they and you be thus like why should they be condemned for heretiques you absolued receiued I answere the likelihood is denied and the reason I haue giuen you alreadie As for Augustines probleme you talke of it is impertinent and toucheth vs not For we doe not with the Donatists shut vp Christs inheritance within the compasse of any place as they did in Africke neither say we that Christ at any time hath lost his in heritance but we say that Christ hath had alwaies and hath still his Church without restraint of place wheresoeuer it pleaseth him neither doeth it remaine now onely with a fewe rude Switzers and in two or three corners besides as it pleaseth you to speake For it is well seene that diuerse whole kingdomes as England Scotland and Denmarke haue receiued our Religion and that indeede it groweth so mightily in most places that it maketh the stoutest of you greatly feare that ere it be lōg your kingdome of the Pope will be greater in the west Indies then in these parts Hauing done with vrging this probleme which indeede fitteth you Papists better then vs in that you tie Christes inheritance to your Popes girdle you tell your Reader but you meane to proue it at leasure that these heretiques that you haue talked on all this while haue fortified their campe with as manie moe places as wee alleadge and therefore once againe you would haue a reason why that notwithstanding they should bee counted heretiques and not we You make vs answere because they did interpret them contrarie to the Churches doctrine which you suppose is the onely answere we can giue But I haue tolde you that because when there is questiō of truth there is cōmonly also questiō of the church our answere is that their alleadging of them was hereticall ours true and right as may be proued by the scriptures themselues and by the right rules of interpreting of them But be it that we answere as you imagine what haue we lost or you gained thereby This say you that you haue no more right then they to be counted Catholiques because you alleadge them also contrarie to the Churches doctrine Here againe you deceiue both your selfe and your Reader with the ambiguity of the word Church For if wee answere that we reiect their allegations for that they alleadged them contrarie to the Churches doctrine that then was we by the Church vnderstand a sound and sincere church of Christ in possession of sound Religion and not whatsoeuer Synagogue will entitle it selfe with the name of the Church and so vnder the name of the Church warre against the true church In which sence onely your Church against whose doctrine wee alleadge them hath the name of a church And yet you as though it
gibing you knowe wel enough who hath a right vnto and that â—heir place is knowen though your purgatory had neuer beene dreamed of for when they reade Luthers workes they are Lutherans when they meete with Caluins workes they are Caluinists at the last they doe not know which side indeede is the truest being both false therefore I thinke it were good that a sequestration were made that neither God nor the Deuill might haue part of their soules till there were a farther inquiry made of such a number of sects that some good and honest arbitratour might giue iudgement as concerning which party hath most right And in the meane while I beseech god to open so the eies of the people that they may see both your errours and their owne and that through the abundance of their sinnes he permit theÌ„ not to fall into an Heathenisme vnto the which you doe seeke to drawe them with so many contrarie Gospels The XXVIII Chapter ONce againe you obiect vnto vs the contentioÌ„ betwixt the Lutherans and Caluinists which you say is cause sufficient not onely to make you stay from yeelding your consent to either of vs though otherwise you were willing to forsake your ReligioÌ„ which wrongfully you call Catholique but also so troubleth the consciences of them that reade the bookes writen on both sides that they are led one while on the one side anone againe on the other so in the end they cannot tell of what Religion to be For whose sakes though otherwise as you say we giue absolute sentence that the Catholique church hath erred eueÌ„ froÌ„ the Apostles times to this present in praying to God for the soules in purgatory you thinke yet we should appoint some third place or other to receiue their soules vntill it were determined with of these belong to God and which to the deuill And then you conclude this Chapter with a solemne praier to God to open the peoples eies to see both our errours their own sinnes least for them thorowe these varieties of opinions amongst vs they bee drawen to heathenisme by Gods permission This contention in the later ende of your former Chapter you wonderfully amplifie telling vs of great battels railing processes and horrible excommunications that haue passed about this matter of the sacrameÌ„t on both sides and yet there in another booke which you haue made you say of the sacrament you signifie vnto vs that you haue bestowed more cost to amplify this matter Against this such like out-cries of these men about this matter gentle Reader thou art to arme and streÌ„gthen thy selfe with that which I haue set downe in the fourth Chapter concerning this matter whereby I haue made euident demonstration vnto thee that it is no new thing amongst the famous teachers in the Church and true members thereof to haue as great hoat contentions as euer there hath beene amongst vs in this And if that which I haue saied there were not sufficieÌ„t I could now further shew you that not only there is as great a coÌ„trouersie now and hath beene a long time amongst themselues the nature of their Religion considered as any they can charge vs with namely this whither their Pope or generall Councels haue the greater and higher authority but also I might easily againe say and say truely as they themselues know well enough that in ancient times in the Churches of Christ there were such lamentable and grieuous contentions betweene Paulinus and Flauianus Lucifer and Eusebius the Meletians and Eustathians all yet otherwise being for and in the substantialest pointes of Religion sound Christians as that with great trouble to the Church they shunned one anothers communion and that for verie many yeares togither as you may reade in Epiphanius libro 1. Tom. 2. in Theodoret lib. 1. cap. 8. c. in Socrates libro 2. cap. 33. 34. and in Zozomen libro 2. cap. 17. 18. And wee reade histor tripart libro 1. cap. 12. that Epiphanius and Chrysostome were at such hoate contention and enmity and yet they were famous Christians and Bishops both that departing one from the other the one spitefully saied to the other thou shalt neuer die Bishop and the other saied to him as vncharitably neither shalt thou get home to thy Bishopricke aliue both which their imprecations or predictions as the storie shewes came euen so to passe For Chrysostome died banished and the other before he got home to Cyprus If you would see what controuersie there was betwixt Cyprian Cornelius and Stephanus Bishops of Rome reade Augustine contra Donatistas libro 5. cap. 23. 25. and Euseb lib. 7. cap. 3. 4. And who is so ignorant that the Church stories and ancient writers ministers vnto vs but too too great store in all ages of controuersies and those also too hoatly followed euen amongst Christians of great name and fame in their times And therefore what vaine thing is it either for you or any of your fellowes in this sort still to amplifie this one controuersie about the Sacrament amongst vs as though it were sufficient cause of all or of any of these thinges which you inferre thereupon against vs. Had there beene any wisedome in them that liued in these ancient times when these contentions were that I haue spoken of here and elsewhere thereupon to haue gathered either all or any of these thinges Nay it is euident that if thereupon they had either stoode a loofe from the trueth growen Neuters or Atheists that they had beene without excuse before God For seeing to know the trueth and to be settled in it is a thing so necessary as it is the more difficult it is made by such meanes to finde it out the more thereby they that are the Lordes and haue anie grace are prouoked to labour and search to finde it and to settle themselues the stronglier in it And therefore seeing such offences haue beene and alwaies in some measure are like to bee for the exercising of the Church and triall of Gods children you and such as you that by such discourses as this leade the people to gather such lessons thereupon as to suspende their iudgement till all partes be agreed or now to bee caried this way now that way as long as the contention lasteth seeme to be disposed to teach the people to learne how to bee Atheistes If you minded to haue them settled in Religion and preserued from neutralitie the mother of Atheisme it were your partes to ioyne with vs especially in these great diuersities of opinions about Religion that be now a daies in the world to perswade them most diligently to search the Scripture and thereby to trie all spirits and their opinions whither they be of God or no yea euen so much the more for these varieties sake that so they might finde the trueth and be settled in it For they may not fainte or giue ouer thus doing for this for necessary it is that
fathers as you herein take it for granted on your side For in trueth you haue none of these on your sides but the onely grounds of your religion are your owne priuate and singular interpretations traditions of men without warrant either from the Scriptures indeed soundly vnderstood or from generall Councels or ancient fathers that are worthy to bee of credit in Gods Church For as we haue made appeare in infinite discourses against you al these are farre more strong on our side then with you And therfore you rather are the fooles that seeme wiser theÌ„ all these in your owne conceit and so labour to draw vs from the ancient catholique faith and Christs true Church by your corrupt glosses allegations of these by your vaine vncertaine traditions of mortal men Wherof let the reader take for a tast these few proofes amoÌ„gst infinite others vsed by vs. The Scripture with vs teacheth iustification freely by faith in Christ without workes Rom. 3.24.25 Ephes 2.8.9 and you condeÌ„ne theÌ„ as heretiques that teach so The scriptures with vs teach that Christs offering himselfe once for al hath made perfect all them that are sanctified Heb. 10.14 and you coÌ„trarily teach that they must be perfected by the iteration of his sacrifice in your masse by a number of other things done by themselues and others for them The Scriptures with vs teach that Christ is ascended into heauen Coloss 3.1 Act. 1.9 c. and that the heauens must containe him vntill the restitution of al things Act. 3.21 and you contrarily wil haue him as oft as you consecrate to come downe to hide himselfe vnder the formes of bread and wine The scriptures with vs say concerning the cup in the Sacrament to all Christians rightly prepared Drinke yee all of this Matth. 26.22 and you say it is heresie to holde that the lay people must drinke thereof To proceed a little further the same Scripture in the 2. Commandement Exod. 20.4 forbiddeth as we doe both the making and worshipping of Images to represent God the father the sonne or the holy Ghost withal and you allow both these The scriptures prefer as we doe the speaking of fiue words in the Church that may bee vnderstoode before ten thousand in a tongue not vnderstoode 1. Cor. 14.19 and your Church as it appeareth in hauing all your seruice in lat in preferreth fiue words spoken there iâ— an vnknowen tongue before ten thousand spoken in the vulgar tongue of the people to their edification Lastly the Scriptures as we doe account mariage honourable among al men in al estates and the mariage bed vndefiled Heb. 13.4 insomuch that they aduouch the forbidding of it though vnder pretence of holines to bee a doctrine of Deuils 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 yet you condemne it in your priestes as a filthie life In like maner is there a plaine contrariety betwixt your religion and the decrees of ancient and general councels In my answere to your 17. Chapter I haue shewed you already that the ancient famous first general Councel of Nice in the 6. Canon thereof is directly against that preheminence that now you giue to the Bishop of Rome ouer all Churches There also you haue heard the councell of Gangra pronounce you accursed for your doctrine against the mariage of ministers I haue also shewed you before that the 6. generall councell holden at Constantinople in the 36. Decree hath flatly determined against the principall article of your religion your Popes supremacy in determining that the Bishop there should haue equal priuiledges with your Pope or Bishop of Rome The councels also of Constance and Basil against your receiued opinion now preferred the authority of a generall Councel before the authority of your Pope And certaine it is that in the time of Charles the great there was a councel called at Franckeforde whereat the Bishops of France Germany Italie were assembled about the year as Regin writeth in his 2 booke 794 where the making and worshipping of Images allowed of by the false Synode of the Greekes as he tearmeth it was condemned And Hickmaâ—e Archbishop of Rheames writing against another bishop of that 〈◊〉 Chap. 20. somewhat about these times calleth this a general couÌ„cel called by the wil coÌ„maÌ„demeÌ„t of the Pope Emperor Charles witnesseth that not onely there the false Synode of the Greeks that made for Images was confuted reiected but also a great booke made thereof then sent to Rome As for fathers and ancieÌ„t doctors I haue plentifully shewed to be against you already for the sufficiency authority of the Scriptures Chap. 3. 5. against your real presence Chap. 11. against your doctrine of IustificatioÌ„ other points of your religion Chap. 16. And it were as easie a matter to shew theÌ„ so to be against you with vs in almost al the rest of the pointes in controuersie betwixt vs. At least this most confidently I doe aduouch that for 600. yeares you shall neuer proue them al nor halfe to be on your side in the third part of the questions betwixt you and vs and therfore you doe but too shamefully deceiue the simple people in this case with a shew bragge of that with you are of al other furthest froÌ„ The XXX Chapter OVr Sauiour Christ did approue his vocation after another sort then you doe yours a But in another place you know he saieth that the word that he had spokâ—n should iudge them at the last day Iohn 12. Search saieth * Ioh. 5. he the scriptures for they heare witnes of me he doeth not say that they are Iudges as you say for you wil haue none other arbitrator but the word of God You know that they are two different thinges to beare witnes and to be a Iudge and yet the scriptures of the old Testament doe coÌ„taine not only the verity of the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ but therewithal the very sufficient probation of his person to teach vs the true word of God to ouerthrowe destroy the whole kingdome of Sathan as it is plainely seene by those that list to looke vpon the oracles of the olde patriarches Prophets It is writeÌ„ in the third of Gen. that God saied vnto the womaÌ„ that her seede should breake downe the serpeÌ„ts head And likewise in the saied * Gen. cap. 12.15.19.22 24. booke there is mentioÌ„ made of this diuine seede of Abraham in the 15. 53. Chapters of Esay in the 2. Psalme Dauid doeth talke of it And in like maner Daniel Moses AaroÌ„ withal the rest of the prophets in their sacrifices haue very perfectly painted the coÌ„ming passioÌ„ of our Sauiour Moses left writeÌ„ in the prophecy of Iacob that the Messias should come when the roial scepter and the administration of it should be taken from the line of Iuda Daniel was not content to say as the rest that he should come b There
insomuch that I dare bee bolde to say it is as much to the good of this Church and common wealth as if an other such Vniuersity as one of these had beene now founded built and endued as richly as either of these now is And though our Cleargy men now be not able to builde so many Colledges as yours were yet those things that they doe that way though they match not yours in quantity they yet may ouermatch yours quickely in quality For you know in the Gospell the widowes two mites which she threw into the treasury for the poore of the little that shee had wel gotten was in Christs account a greater almes then theirs which threw in farre greater summes of their superfluities Marke 12. And well knowen it is that the richest and greatest of ours are for their places but beggers to them that haue beene of like or the same place amongst you whereof the reason is not onely that they lacke a number of deuises that yours had to encrease their gaine but also that they haue not your Romish consciences which with your Popes dispensation could make them wide enough to swallow vp the commodities not onely of as many benefices but also Bishopricks and other offices ciuill or ecclesiasticall as they could possibly get Whereof it came that of their very superfluities vnlesse they had beene prouder then Lucifer and more wastfull in belly cheare then euer was the rich glutton some thing might well be spared and of a number of them so much as might haue procured the building of many moe then they left behinde them Hospitals and Colledges though you would so insinuate we haue pulled downe none but haue increased the number of them And as for your Abbies other â—loisters of religious houses you had for the inriching and building of them vnder pretence of your requiting of them with your Masses Dirges and trentals deuoured so many widowes houses robbed so many heires and fatherlesse children spoiled so many Parishes of the ordinary maintenance for their ministers and since the liuers in them were growen to such height of sinnes not to be named as that in the iust iudgement of God there could no lesse punishment come vpon them then the vtter defacing and ouerthrowing of them lest if they had beene left easie to haue beene set in their former state againe they should too easily and too quicklie haue beene shoppes and sties for the like filthinesses and abhominations againe And yet here with vs in EnglaÌ„d Cardinall Woolsey by the Popes authority pulled downe the first and to the suppression of the rest many of your bishops and Cleargy vnder king Henry consented and in diuers other places they haue beene also by lawfull and sufficient authority orderly for these causes defaced and doubtles though not turned to so good vses as they might perhaps haue beene if the wrath of God against them for the foresaied causes woulde haue suffered it yet I am fully perswaded to a better vse by farre yea infinite degrees then they were before And therefore these things considered this rather may be counted a good worke in vs thus to haue defaced them and conuerted their vse then a fault whereof wee need repent vs And consequently vaine is your charging of vs with seeking to make amends with giuing a trifle to the poore This is a fault that rather toucheth your kingdome then vs for wee account all almes and other outward good workes whatsoeuer to be vnprofitable to the doer vnlesse they be done with goods gotten with a good conscience which wil ouerthrow most of the glory of the gay works that you most brag of you are they that care not so your Church be inriched if it be with the farming of concubines dispensation for any sin with the rentes yearly for the open stewes that with the which they get by whoring during their liues so you haue it when they die For ther was nothing more coÌ„moÌ„ theÌ„ for your priests to farme coÌ„cubines though they might not be suffred to haue lawful wiues experieÌ„ce hath taught that there was no sin but ther might be marchaÌ„dise made of it in your romish court faire the your Popes a long time haue takeÌ„ rent for the stewes in Rome that yearely a good round summe that they haue bene glad to take the goods of those harlots when they died for their Churches vse it is most notoriouslie knowen And what hath beene more vsuall both in practise and doctrine with you then to teach much satisfaction for sinne and redemption of former faultes to bee performed by almes giuing especially so it were to your Priestes and Clergy men neuer caring so you might come by it of their goods aliue or dead whether euer it was well gotten or no For in trueth this hath beene the policy that hath brought your Clergy to so infinite wealth as they were of and made all other but beggers in comparison of themselues Therefore now let them that haue any iudgement as you wish looke vpon the fruite of your trees whether they bee so good or no as you here make bragges of The XXXV Chapter NOw seeing that you haue visited our garden if a man maie bee so bold I pray lend vs the keies that we may in like maner visite yours that we may see the fruits of your religion Read al the histories writeÌ„ froÌ„ the passion of Christ to our daies you shal find that al those sects that haue left our Roman Church haue done more mischiefe in one yeare a Your Romish Church that now iâ— is as farre gone from the ancient pure Roman Church as euer any heretiques went froÌ„ it and of you especially your saying is tâ—ue being seperated from the saied Church then they did in an huÌ„dred years before But because our meaning is not to recite all the acts of your predecessors enemies to the Catholique Church it shall suffise to make a short discourse of those that haue bene of late daies I meane the Bohemians or Hussites whose followers you doe affirme your selues to be for in your godly booke of Martyrs b This is vntrue as euery one that wil view the â—ct and monumeÌ„ts of the Church writen by master Fox may see you haue placed Iohn Hus as the first Martyr of your ancieÌ„t Church who was burnt for an heretique about an 120. years agone eueÌ„ as we accoÌ„pt c Your religion and Stephens agree â—o wel that if hee were aliue again you would be as ready as euer were the Iewes to stone him whatsoeuer you say of him now he being deade S. StepheÌ„ to be the first Martyr of our Church Now to know whither yeâ—e of the opinioÌ„ of the Hussites or no that I leaue for some other time and for this present I am content to condescende to that that you haue writen I meane that Iohn Hus did preach your Gospell and made a number of such faithfull persons
the first doth it follow therefore that your matter is good c No but it followeth that then you may be ashamed to note that as a fault in vs whereof you are first and more guilty I pray doe but consider the verdict that you both giue of your selues of vs. We are according to your sacred gospell Apostolical iudgement no other but poore and simple infidels superstitious Idolaters but coÌ„trariwise you are Apostles Prophets Euangelists the true children of God Seeing then that God hath shewed you so much fauour poured vpon you the bountifull giftes of his grace how haue yee sought so cruellie to d If any of our profession haue doâ—e so we neither commend them nor allow of their maner of dealing you doe of the like in yours reuenge your selues against his expresse commandement Is this the way of reformation to shew your selues as il as we or worse Seeing that the matter falleth out so plainely I pray you be not obstinate giue place vnto the best to reforme the rest for to be worse then you I e Your opinion God be thaÌ„ked is no great preiudice vnto vs. thinke none can be found You my masters that can make such tedious sermons and raile at large against our Popes and Bishops whie doe you passe ouer so lightly the faults of your f We doe not lightly passe oueâ— the faultes of our ministers ministers you set out gloriously the titles of Apostles Prophets Euangelists and extraordinarie messengers of God for your selues as good Godfathers ye now Christen our Popes and Bishops calling them rauening and g In so calling them we caâ—l but a spade a spade a fig a fig. greedie deuouring wolues In this ye do greatly abuse the intellectioÌ„ of the scriptures for if you marke vvell that that our Sauiour doeth saie yee shall finde that yee run farre wide of the text and the similitude of the wolfe doeth full well appertaine vnto your ministrie There he doeth declare the difference that is betwixt the good shepheard and the bad which he doeth call Mercenarium the wolfe * John 10. The good Shepheard is he that doeth hazard venture his life for his flocke the ill Shepheard is he that taketh the milke and the woole froÌ„ the sheepe letteth theÌ„ rome without taking any care to keepe them h And this we finde iâ— hath bene â—f long the very nature and property of yours The wolues seeing theÌ„ rome abroad scattered froÌ„ the flocke doeth deuour all those that are ill kept The good shepheard is our Sauiour Christ and his Apostles and all the good Bishops that did florish in olde time and all the holy Confessours and martyrs that haue liued in the golden age when the bloud of our Sauiour Christ was yet hot boyling in their harts The ill shepheards haue followed after which haue not cared for their sheepe The wolues which are the heretiques seeing this haue scattered the sheepe out of the fold of Christ which is the catholike Church where they had beene borne spiritually that is to say regenerated with the grace of the holy ghost the Sacrament of baptisme to follow the sects of perditioÌ„ If al our shepheards had bene as careful to keepe their flockes as they ought to haue beene your Congregation had neuer beene so strongly builded as it is at this day in France And therefore you offer your Church if it may be so called great wrong when you speake against the abuses of ours i Indeed because your Religion the principal pillers thereof are plants hâ—t the heauenly father planted neuer therefore you are and shall be rooted vp by the rootes for our sinnes haue beene and are the principall foundations of your building And euen as the worme is nourished in the Aposteme with the ill humors euen so you feede of our faultes are nourished with our sinnes your fire burnes with our wood k You must ameÌ„d both your liues and religion or else it will be wide with you I can tell you and if we woulde amend our liues I know how soone your religion would l The gates of hel shal neuer preuaile against ours decay And therfore our Pastours are not wolues but they haue permitted the wolues to deuour their sheepe and so they shall answere for them before the throne of the eternall Iudge m Your sheepherds then by your owne confessioÌ„ haue bene lewde idle and negligent shepeherdes who doeth aduertise them by the Prophet Ezechiel that they shal answere for all the mischiefes that happen vnto their sheepe manie of the vvhich are scabbed and full of diseases and therefore I would haue you to cause some body to choose among yours and ours those that are best to the ende that through this diuision and your aide wee may take the rest I thinke that if any thing condemne vs it wil bee this cause forasmuch as we haue continued in that doctrine which was preached vnto vs at the first as you your selues n Yes that we can and say most truely too cannot denie if you will confesse the trueth The XXXVI Chapter YOu would haue your reader beleeue that we haue no further answere to your former obiection but your example and therefore in this chapter you bring vs in answering onely for our defence that you were the first and that we learned so to doe of you whereunto first you answere that you know who should saie the trueth if you should say the contrary and then supposing that our answere were true you tel vs that our answere will not serue because we should not haue learned so cruelly to reuenge our selues against Gods expresse commandement of you whom we count poore simple infidels and superstitious idolaters But I trust the indifferent reader may see by that which I haue writen that this is not our only answere and that we answering thus if you should say the contrary he now knoweth that it is you and no other that therein should speake contrary to the trueth Indeed we coÌ„fesse that we should not learne of you nor of any other cruelly to seeke to reuenge our selues for the Lord hath forbid vs to reuenge our selues for vengeance is his and he wil doe vengeance Rom. 12.19 And if any of our side haue transgressed this rule we coÌ„mend it not in them neither do we incourage other to follow any such exaÌ„ple but yet withal we tel you and you know it to be most true that such may be the oppression of Gods seruants and the tiranny of their enemies towards them that he may as he hath done extraordinarily stir vp some amongst them to reuenge their quarrels and to deliuer them out of their enemies hands though such extraordinary examples are not to bee drawen into ordinary imitation And though there bee no reason why wee should learne to doe ill of you of whom we account so euill yet there is reason why you
to escape this 1000. more such contrarieties betwixt your doctrin and the reueiled wil of God in the scriptures but by subtle sophistrie fonde quiddities and distinctions deuised of your owne heades without all warrant and ground frō thēce which in matters and questions of diuinity is intollerable These and such like contrarieties betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Prelates and the trueth taught in the scriptures we hauing oft obserued and tolde them of and yet finding them most obstinatly to persist in the same hath caused vs rather in respect of their hereticall doctrine to call them wolues thē in respect of their negligence onely heretiques And for this same cause seeing all yours are thus infected you wish vs in vaine to ioyne some of the best of them with some of the best of ours to reforme things amisse in both For there is no hope of any good reformation at all where any such as yours haue any thing to doe therein And seeing it is and hath beene so cōmon a thing with vs as you cannot be ignorant if you haue reade anie of our bookes writen against you to denie that you continue in the doctrine which was preached vnto you at the first yea seeing you all know that we count your synagogue Antichristian for her manifold Apostasies from the ancient doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught first vnto the Romans I wonder with what face or forehead you could write as you do in the cōclusion of this Chapter that we our selues cannot denie if we will confesse the trueth but that you haue continued in the doctrine that was first preached vnto you And therefore not onely for your lewdnes of life and negligent sheepherds bad sheepe doeth your kingdome decay as you would insinuate but especially for this also that in the points we striue with you about you are quite gone from the ancient sound Catholique faith and religion first taught by Christ and his Apostles and receiued and continued many yeares in the ancient Roman church others The only way therefore for you is to preuēt an vtter vniuersall subuersion and confusion first to returne againe from your new Antichristian Religiō doctrine to the true ancient Catholique faith taught in the scriptures and thē to amend your maners according to the direction of the same The XXXVII Chapter ALL our ancient doctours a This is but an arrogant false brag as we are able to proue come to particulars when you will as well of the Greeke as of the Latine church since the Apostles time and the Christians of all the foure quarters of the world which were in those daies b Christians haue alwaies vowed and promised lawful thinges onely to God they haue had a care to make those vowes and promises discreetly of such things as they saw he had made possible vnto thē which things are neglected in the vowes that I feare you most mean haue made their promises and vowes vnto God euen as we doe now and at their baptisme they did vse euen those verie ceremonies that we doe with the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and annoyntings that we doe vse in our Catholique church which you call Papisticall and to proue this true we will bring the saied ancient doctours as witnesses if it please you to reade the c Neuer man had worse hap in quoting so few places as is euident in the answer to this Chapter places that we will quote Tertullian who liued verie neere the Apostles time doeth make mention in his booke that he intituled De resurrectione carnis of the annointing vsed at the Baptisme and of the renouncing the Deuill all his pompe In his booke de coronâ militis he doeth speake of the third dipping vnder the water in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost S. Cyprian the Martyr who was aboue 1300. yeares agone doeth write in the second volume of his Epistles Epist 12. how they did vse in his time to giue the holy Chrisme vnto the children that were baptised Origen in his twelfth Homilie and in diuerse other places of his workes doeth make mention of the renouncing of the Deuill at ones baptisme of the making of the signe of the crosse vpon childrens faces when they were christened S. Iohn Chrysostome in his 12. Homilie vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 4. And in his first Homilie vpon the first Chapter to the Ephesians he doeth make mention of the saied renunciation made from the Deuill and all his workes Reade I praie if it be your pleasure S. Aug. in Psal 31. Aug. li 15. contra Iulia. Pelag. li. 1. ca. 2. Item de nuptiis cōcupiscentia lib. 1. cap. 20. in Ioannem tract 33. in Canonicam Ioannis tract 3. tractat 6. Et de eccle dogmat cap. 31. De Simbolo lib. 1. cap. 7. lib. 2. cap. 11. Et libro de his qui initiantur sacris Cap. 1. Basilius de Spiritu Sancto cap. 15. 27. Arnobius in Psalm 75. All these doctours which were aboue a thousand yeares agone if you reade in them the places that heere I haue quoted you shall finde that they did vse at the Baptisme of their children those verie ceremonies that wee doe now vse and that you doe so mislike And as for confession before the receiuing of the Sacrament our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the Ecclesiasticall ministers haue authoritie to binde and forgiue sinnes Saint Cyprian in his fifth Sermon de lapsis Origen vpon the thirtie and seuenth Psalm and in Leuit. Hom. 2. Saint Augustine libro 2. de visitatione infirmorum Cap. 4. Saint Cyril libro 12. in Iohannem Cap. 56. Saint Hierom in Ecclesiast Cap. 10. All these doctours according to the Scriptures in these places doe confirme auriculer confession And as for praying vnto the Saintes in Paradise to helpe vs vvith their praiers read Origen in his third Homilie vpō the Cāticles and in his 2. book vpō Iob his eight book in Eccl. Reade Chrysostom in his eight Homilie vpon the Epistle to the Ephesians the fourth Chapter and S. Augustine in his twentie booke against Faustus the one and twenty Chapter and Saint Hierom against Vigilantius All these make mention of the praying vnto the Saintes And for praying for the dead reade Tertullian in his booke De Monogonia and in his booke De corona militis and Saint Cyprian ad plebem Furnensem and in the first booke of his Epistles and Origen in Hieremiam Homil. 12. Item in Epist ad Rom. libro 8. cap. 11. Reade Chrysostome in his thirde Homilie vpon the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Philippians and S. Augustine lib. 2. de gen against the Manichees cap. 20. in the Encheridion ad Laurent cap. 110. Item libro de cura pro mortuis agenda All these doctours whose workes haue continued these 1200. yeares doe teach vs all these thinges that now we doe obserue the which
they left in writtng by the ordinance of God to confute such heretiques as you are The XXXVII Chapter AT last it seemeth by your paines taken in this Chapter you be thought your selfe that forasmuch as hitherto onelie in bare and naked wordes you had vaunted and bragged your Religion to be the ancient Religion that it was needefull for you euē for shame before you made a full end of your booke to yeeld vs some reasons and grounds or at least some shew colour of your so lewd and bold boasting And therefore here now at last to that ende you haue mustered the bare names of a few ancient fathers very prouidently leauing your Readers to the examining of your quotations amōgst whom not one of an hundreth you knew either for lacke of skill or will leasure or bookes could and would turne to the places in the authours themselues You thought belike your credit to bee such that they must needes beleeue that you cite thē truely and faithfully and that because you so roundly haue huddled them togither that therefore also out of all question they spake and wrotefully for you in the points you alleadge them for What smal cause there is either for you to looke thus to bee trusted or for any to yeelde you such credit herein wee shall see anone when wee come to the examining of your quotations In the meane time what ment you by this thus onely when all commeth to al to countenance these 4 points your Ceremonies in baptisme confession before the sacrament praiers to the Saints departed and praier for the dead Are these the greatest matters of your religion in question Or doeth it especially depend vpon these 4 and the coūtenancing of these Or was your prouision ready for no more that but once in all your booke you seeming to set downe the authorities whereupon you ground your religion you would take the paines to go no further then to these 4 points Indeed in your next Chapter you excuse your selfe and say that you would haue gone likewise on to confirme the rest but for being tedious to your reader Truely he is much beholden to you for your discreet kindnes towards him that haue not spared to be tedious vnto him in al the rest of your book in troubling of him with such a number of proud brags of the antiquity and catholikenes of al your religion as you haue and with many needles and friuolous long discourses besides and now when you came to the point indeed which of all other was most materiall and wherein both for his satisfaction and your owne credit it stood you vpon most to enlarge your selfe then thus to shift him of with as good as nothing bearing him yet in hand that but for his ease you both could and would haue saied inough This is a common tricke amongst you thus to cozen and abuse your simple readers to weary them with things needles and then to slip ouer with some such shift as this matters most needful Wel concerning that which either you haue saied here for these 4 points or that which after you pretend if you had list you could haue easily saied for the rest this I would haue the reader diligently to note and marke that but for two places vainely alleaged to proue your confession that you neither haue alleaged any testimony of scripture at all for the proofe of these nor yet that you so much as say after you could or would for the rest Which argueth that euen in your owne conscience the best ground and countenance that your popish religion hath either in these points or in the rest is but from earth and not from heauen from men and not from the holy ghost For if you had beene able with any good colour to haue coūtenāced either these points or any of the rest out of Gods owne booke and writen word the reader may think that neither your zeale to your religion nor yet your boasting spirit which hitherto hath shewed it selfe ouerflowing in you either would or could haue suffered you thus much to the preiudice your whole cause cleane to haue forgotten so much as once to go about it But to say the trueth seeing it is confessed by your betters not onely that this but the most of all the rest of the points of your Religiō which we striue with you for are grounded but vpon tradition as I haue shewed out of Soto against Brentius Canisius fift Chapter of his Catechisme and Lyndans 100. Chapter of the fifth booke of his panoply before you are the honester man and the more a great deale to be liked for your thus secretly confessing the same with them Now yet by this the Reader may plainely vnderstand what hath indeede beene the reason why in all your booke hitherto you haue laboured so much as you haue to grace and countenance tradition and the exposition of the doctours and withall haue spent so much time in diswading the appealing to the Scriptures for the ending of the controuersies betwixt vs. You were wise enough it seemeth to see where your strength lay and from whēce would rise your bane and therefore who can blame you for leaning as you doe altogither to the one and shunning the other But then in reason yet you should call your Religion no more diuinity but humanity no more Theologie but patrologie and plainely confesse indeede from whence you haue all your figge leaues rags and clouts to couer your shame and nakednes Truely these you haue whatsoeuer in this respect you pretend not from the right and sound Apostolique tradition which alwaies was either expressed in Scripture or at least cōsonant vnto it nor from the ancient holy fathers rightly vnderstood and when they taught as it was of themselues acknowledged to be their duties with sound warrant from the scriptures as I haue sundry times shewed already but onely from forged or corrupt tradition and from the fathers either misunderstood or erring as men So that vnwriten verities or rather forgeries sentences of fathers mistaken or their verie errours whereof they would haue beene ashamed if they had had the meanes to helpe them to see them that you haue are the groundes pillers and bewties of your church and Religion And this we are alwaies ready to iustifie against you before the whole world by sound and inuincible proofe out of the vn doubted word of God interpreted according to the same rules of interpreting it that the holy and ancient fathers themselues haue followed in confuting all heretiques in their times by and which they haue likewise commended to others alwaies to be obserued and out of the vndoubted writings of the ancientest and best fathers them selues Wee are therefore verie well content to liue and die in that Church and Religion which we are sure we are able thus to iustifie and we enuy not you but rather heartely lament and pittie you that yours hath no better grounde then it hath But to
wee onely are saued or they al condemned For I haue shewed how a nuÌ„ber yea infinite numbers of them might be saued this notwithstanding As for your iudgement that they neuer erred so much as our disciples it is not material For you are no competent iudge in this matter And the reason of your iudgement that we condemne the faith that the Catholique Church hath held this 1500. yeares and maintaine the olde rotten condemned heresies is a thing which by begging after this sort at our hands though therein you be neuer so impudent and shamelesse a begger as that way in this your book your greatest skill hath appeared you shall neuer get And therefore set your hearts at rest your words though they be neuer so lowde stout shall neuer make vs yeelde you this for an almes You must therefore proue your words true and so make vnto vs euident demonstration thereof which you shall neuer be able to doe before we may yeeld vnto you that you haue any right at all to this The XXXIX Chapter IF that by a good and a right title your disciples cal themselues the children of God this maketh me beleeue that the saying of our Sauiour is fulfilled in them the which is * Luc. 16. The childreÌ„ of this world are wiser in their generation then the children of light To proue this true wee see this dailie experience for a wise worldly man when he doeth put out his money to gaine he vvill not trust the promise so soone of one or two or three as hee vvill doe the bondes of a vvhole Towne or Cittie that should warrant or assure his gaine But you nor your disciples haue not done thus but rather the contrarie It had beene better for you to haue first put your faith and trust in God beleeuing that he hath giuen his holie spirit and declared the meaning as touching the Scriptures vnto the Catholique Church a We build not our faith religion or hope of saluatioÌ„ of these meÌ„s credits but vpoÌ„ the credit of the vndoubted worde of God set down in the scriptures which is for credit to be preferred before the credit of all men speaking beside or contrary vnto them and not to hazard the hope of your saluation putting it into the hands of Luther Zuinglius Oecolampadius and three or foure other such pelting merchantes vvhich haue newlie set vp shoppes at Wittemberge Geneua Losane vvhich one of these daies we shal see bankeroutes as their predecessours haue beene before them the vvhich after that they had deceiued the poore simple Catholiques b Beware of dogs Phil. 3. ergo take heed of this Romish barker the best is hee is but one that barketh to bite hurt he hath small or no power and gained some of their soules for the deuill they haue at the last sold al their honestie and credit so that at this daie except that it be those that reade the ancient histories no bodie else doeth remember that euer they liued in the world You are come now last of all to make vp their merchandise but your credit can hardlie be good before God c Will you neuer haue done with this bare vaine brag Shew this but once to bee true and then we yeelde and then brag and spare not for you shall haue against you all the ancient Catholicke Church which hath continued visible since the comming of Christ vnto this day all the Doctours of all the vniuersities all the Empires Kingdomes and priuate state thoroughout al the worlde which haue receiued and honoured this doctrine that you call Papisticall And if you saie that you will not trust meÌ„ but the verie word of the Lord we agree to the like that we ought al to beleeue the Scripture but we varie about the interpretation for you interpret it after one sort and we after another you expound it after a new sort and the Catholicke Church doeth follovv d When it commeth to the trial it will be found that our interpretation rather then yours hath continuance froÌ„ all the sound ancient Doctours and the vndoubted Apostolicall â—raditions the olde exposition of the ancient Doctours traditions which you haue forsaken or to saie the trueth your Ministers haue led the sheepe astraie froÌ„ the old flocke at the departing froÌ„ the which they haue beene al scattered abroad some following Luther some Caluin some the Anabaptists so forth for the which the Popes kings others that haue had the gouernment of the Church shall answere at the last daie of iudgement for as much as while e Ergo you haue had sleepy Popes they slept you haue come sowedweeds among the good corne Then seeing you are the sheepe that rome astraie what excuse can they make before God that wilfully follow your steps We confesse that we are the poore sheepe of God that haue continued with our old flocke stedfast whole as touching our religion but very weake and sickely f Amend them for shame as touching our maners that is to say g But your wounds sores sicknes is grown so desperat that you will account none such but them that wil tel you you are sound and in health where you are most sicke full of sins vices attending some sage phisitions to heale vs good pastors to keepe vs casting out the chaffe froÌ„ the corne I meane cutting off those abuses that are offensiue not to such scrupulous consciences as you haue but vnto him that doeth threaten theÌ„ for the carelesse liues of their sheepe so to continue in that h Proue this once some of you or else for shame neuer say it almost in euery leafe for lack of matter as you doe ancient faith that by succession of pastours we haue receiued from the Apostles The XXXIX Chapter In this Chapter there is nothing but your old great words stout begging the maine questioÌ„ that your Church is the true ancient Catholicke Church that al the ChristiaÌ„s great small since Christ haue bene flat on your side that you are the only men that follow the sound sence of the scriptures deliuered vnto you by the ancient doctors and true pastors of the Church that we are but two or three in coÌ„parison of you sprung vp yesterday such as you prophesie wil shortly grow banckerout both of credit and honesty This bladder ful of nothing but winde is sufficiently I hope prickt and let out already by that which I haue saied in sundry places before Howsoeuer I hope the reader is not so simple as that seeing in you neuer so great store of these swelling wordes as long as he knoweth your aduersaries denie them as stoutly of the other side and he seeth you bring nothing but bare wordes without proofe he wil any whit be mooued therewith And yet as not able a discourse as this booke of yours is accounted the greatest stuffing that it hath is onelie
bouÌ„ds of the Romish Church vniuersal but eueÌ„ as the Donatists shut vp the Church in Africk so do the Romanists within the coÌ„passe of a corner of the world in coÌ„parison of al the rest which they cut of from the coÌ„munion of the Church And yet there is nothing more vsual with Master Ioh. de Albine in this his book theÌ„ to labour to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce the Romish Synagogue with these two things antiquity vniuersality But as for vniuersality it may appeare by that which I haue saied by that which euery one may easily coÌ„ceiue if he coÌ„pare theÌ„ the professe Christ whoÌ„ they reiect as heretickes schismaticks with theÌ„ that receiue honour the popish religion that it is now and hath beene a long time rather with theÌ„ whoÌ„ they thus coÌ„deÌ„ne theÌ„ with theÌ„selues And as for antiquity most certaine it is that the Turks the Nestorians the CircuÌ„cisers may a great deale more iustly brag therof theÌ„ they For the Turkes haue beene in possession of their full Mahometisme these 900 years the heresie of the NestoriaÌ„s hath continued these 1200 years amongst the Georgians And the heresie of them that ioine circuÌ„cision with baptisme continueth yet in Africa in AEthiopia vnder Presbyter Iohn hath these 1500 years whereas popery is not so old as the youÌ„gest of these in that almost al the points therof wherfore it is so called haue beene deuised and brought in since the youngest of these began But put the case that popish religion were ancient indeede and had the greatest part of the world to follow it must it needs therfore follow that it were the trueth the best way No indeed For who can deny that Gentilism or Paganish idolatry wheÌ„ the Apostles were sent first to preach the gospel to the GeÌ„tiles was very ancient For it had welnigh continued then from Noahs fâ—ould vntill that time And neuer was popery of so manie nations so vniuersally receiued as that was And yet who is so simple but he knoweth now for all this that that was a way that led to destruction And if the mystery of iniquity beganne to worke in the Apostle Paules time and yet Antichrist the father thereof was not quite to be abolished before the brightnes of Christs second comming as he plainely teacheth 2. Thess 2. it being withall prophesied that the whore of Babylon Antichrists right patterne should sit vpon many waters that is rule ouer many people and cause the kings and nations of the earth to be drunk with the wine of her fornication as it is Reuelat. 17. who seeth not that euen Antichristianity may be countenanced with great shew both of antiquity vniuersality as certaine and good tokens as the Romanists count these two of the true Church of Christ Which things considered howsoeuer it pleaseth Master Ioh. de Albine here to iest at vs as men like to the children of God in nothing but in this folly that contrary to the fashion of the wise children of the world we chuse rather to trust a few then many we are contented therein to be like them stil and so rather to chuse to enter into the Arke with 8. persons Ge. 7. so to be saued then to refuse so to doe with all the world besides so to be drowned And I would aduise him for al his wisedome to be such a foole as rather with two or three to flie out of Sodom with Lot Gen. 19 then with all the rest to tarry behinde and to be destroied with fire and brimstone For howsoeuer he count this folly Christ who is wisedome it selfe hath charged his to striue to enter in at the straight gate though few go the way many the other broad way For that is the way that wil lead vnto saluation whereas the other leadeth to destruction Luke 13. But the men whom he nameth Luther Zuinglius and Oecolampadius though they be men whom we thinke wel of and whose memories shal be famous in Gods Church for al his blinde prophecie to the contrary when the names of a thousand such as himselfe is shal bee either buried in obliuion or infamous for their resisting of Gods trueth are not the men vpon whom wee build our religion These we account such as in these later daies God vsed to very good purpose to reuiue further to publish and make knowen the doctrine of trueth then it was when they beganne first But the men that we trust and leane vnto in this case are those holy men of God and such like as Saint Peter speaketh of 2. Pet. 1 which spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost so haue left the will of God for our full direction vnto vs in the holy Scripture And these the ancient Christians and Doctours for six hundred yeares after Christ and infinite numbers since euen downe vnto the times of these whom he here nameth as I haue shewed in the fourth Chapter of this booke and else where togither with vs haue followed And further then these writers of the canonical scriptures haue led any of these we doe not nor meane not to follow theÌ„ You shew therefore Master Albine but the nature of your Romish spirit in your confident aduouching without all proofe that these men you name gained soules to the Deuill and that they haue so fold their honesty credit that few now know that euer they liued in the worlde For besides your rash and vncharitable iudging of theÌ„ you speake that which your owne heart tolde you was a lie For you could not bee ignorant but that these mens names are knowen to thousands that neuer read their stories But you say that you agree with vs in not trusting of men but in trusting to the very word writeÌ„ but you and we vary about the interpretation for we interpret it after one sort and you after another we after a new sort and the Catholicke Church whereby wrongfully stil you meane your owne doeth follow the olde exposition of the ancient doctours and traditions with we haue forsaken Herein you say more then either you or any of your fellowes wil stand to For when it commeth to the point the greatest champions of you confesse that a number of the things that are in controuersie betwixt you and vs are without the coÌ„passe of the scripture and therfore least they should be quite reiected they vnder prop them with the rotten prop which yet they labour to make to carry some shew of strength of traditions or of the word vnwriten And in the other point concerning interpretation that therein we vary it is true but that the variety is as you say it is false For we neuer refused the exposition of the Catholicke Church nor to vse the helpe of her sound and Catholicke Doctours or traditions agreing with the word writeÌ„ as helpeth the better to attaine to the right sence therof by Indeed the interpretation of your new Apostata Church of Rome her false doctours and
traditions because they wil not stand with the plaine scriptures themselues we reiect Otherwise we are ready alwaies to proue our sence thereof to agree with the ancient Church her doctours better then yours can And as for the variety amongst vs of interpretatioÌ„s which you charge vs withal sure we are it wil neuer proue so great as hath beene and is amongst you or as is betwixt your interpretation and that which was of them 900. yeares ago and therefore for any thing you haue yet saied you your selues are the rouing sheepe froÌ„ the ancient sheepfold you are they which whiles men slept haue sowed cares amongst the good corne and which are the sheepe sicke in religion as well as in maners and not we And therefore they that haue ioined with you whosoeuer they haue beene are like at the day of iudgement to smart for nothing more then for taking part with you And so to conclude this Chapter whatsoeuer hitherto you haue gained at the handes of the simple by these your vaine and swelling wordes you shall hereafter loose ten times as much amongst them that are wise thereby The XL. Chapter I Know wel that you will take this confession of mine to your aduantage saying that for feare of being infected with our superstitious diseases you haue seperated your selues froÌ„ the coÌ„mon flocke but if you doe consider my first words they haue barred you al maner of waies to reply iustly for I haue already saied that although wee be sickely weake sheepe as touching our doings or maners yet in regarde of our faith thaÌ„kes be to God we are safe sound keeping stil a Indeede you haue saied and saied it againe againe but yet you haue neuer proued â—t nor 〈◊〉 that integritie of religion that by succession of pastors we haue receiued froÌ„ the Apostles without adding or diminishing any thing to the ground of our Catholicke beliefe for as for ceremonies the Church hath vsed the euer as touching the time the place to the honour of God edification of our neighbours b Your antichristian religion is that that hath caused vs to separate ourselues from you as wee are biddeÌ„ Reue. 18. vers 4. therfore if you did seperate your selues froÌ„ our kinde of liuing to lead a holy solitarie life as the holie Heremites Saints haue done in times past forsaking the coÌ„uersation of the coÌ„mon people to liue in coÌ„teÌ„plation without seperating theÌ„ selues froÌ„ the coÌ„munioÌ„ of the Church in the which they haue beene baptised had receiued their faith your doings had beene as much worthie of praise in that respect as now they are daÌ„nable considering how you forsake the coÌ„moÌ„ tabernacle within the which both you we haue receiued the sacraments of regeneration our spiritual food altogither And to the ende that no body run astraie froÌ„ the right path that he should follow the good ChristiaÌ„ ought to fixe in his minde this resolution I meane to serue God to liue in the catholicke faith coÌ„monlie or priuatelie for wheÌ„ there is any questioÌ„ put as touching the life the coÌ„moÌ„n are c This is a right popish glosse that is a plaine peruerting of Christs meaning as * Mat. 7. Christ doth say doth lead one to perdition the narrow waie doeth guide vnto the part of saluation But if one speake of religion the contrarie is verified for the coÌ„mon way is the waies of health the priuate waie is the path of damnation d And this is an other The Prophet Dauid in the 24 Psalme had a regard to this when he praied God to teach him his waies by the religion his pathes by the maners and customes The XL. Chapter YOu were deceiued in thinking that we would pretend your euil maners or your difference in ceremonies for the defence of our seperation from you For we haue alwaies protested that it was especially your Antichristian doctrine that hath caused vs to accouÌ„t that Reuelations 18.4 Go out of her my people that ye be not pertakers in her sins and that yee receiue not of her plagues directly spoken to vs concerning your Romish Synagogue and religioÌ„ And therfore is it that we haue so seperated our selues from you as we haue because we find that you are apostataes long haue bene from the ancient Catholicke Church of Christ and from the truly coÌ„mended ancient Roman Church it selfe with whom we cannot growe in common vnlesse we had forsaken your fellowship And this kinde of seperation of our selues from you we know was more necessarie and is more coÌ„mendable then al the seperation of Heremites or any other of your caged birdes howsoeuer you could haue allowed that better then this of ours But you would seeme to haue bound vs to haue continued with you because that we receiued many of vs baptisme at your hands What I trust you are not so meane a diuine as to thinke it alwaies best for men to continue communion with them in all things that haue baptised them You know I am sure that the Arrian heretickes their heresie spreading it selfe so broad as it did and continuing diuers 100 yeares and other heretiques as well as they baptised many and yet I hope you wil not thinke that they might not after forsake their heresies to turne to the truth You know many did forsake them and came to the trueth yet it was counted an heresie to baptise them againe The better yet to shew that we should not haue departed from you you tel vs that you haue continued without adding and diminishing in that doctrine which was taught by the Apostles first and since from hand to hand in all integrity hath bene by the succession of faithful pastors conueighed downe vnto you and so we had both baptisme and all our other spirituall foode with you These are but wordes the euidence of the thing is to the contrary as I haue sufficiently made demonstration before Proue this indeed and we will repent vs of our departing from you most ioifully willingly wil wee ioyne with you againe I like very well your counsell that euery good Christian should fully resolue and determine to serue God and to liue and die in the Catholicke faith but then I adde that he had need well and throughlie to bee resolued what and which is that true Catholicke Faith For his direction in this behalfe how to discerne which is the right way to heauen and which not and consequentlie which is the true catholicke faith which is not you teach him that when there is any question put as touching life then the common way as Christ doeth say Mat. 7. doeth lead to perdition and the narrow to saluation but in religion it is contrary whereunto you saie Dauid alluded Psal 24. saying shew me thy waies O Lorde and teach me thy pathes by waies meaning religion and by pathes maners Where learned you this diuinity If you looke vpon Christs
as the Iewes had beene for not receiuing of our sauiour Christ e It was expresly prophecied that whē the Messias should come he should worke such works and therefore it was necessary that he should work them and herein he had priuilege and prerogatiue beyond all men the like is not prophecied that preachers of the gospel should do alwaies therfore this is required at our hands without all reason And yet therefore we haue not more priuiledge but lesse thē Christ if he had not done so manie miracles For we know no cause why you should be more priuiledged then Christ And seeing that you haue shewed nothing to verify it this waie and that the Scriptures make no mention of your vocation nor you shewe no miracles that your liues are at the least as ill as ours f Thus to threatē you we may boldly without shame because we are able to proue our doctrine by the scriptures to be the same that Christ taught and confirmed with his miracles what moues you to be so bolde and so vnshamefaced as to threaten vs with eternall damnation if we receiue not your hereticall doctrine the which is so full of discords and diuisions that one maie easilie gather by this from whence it came and whither it doeth leade one although yee haue nothing in your mouthes but the Gospell and the word of the Lorde And as g Whoso reads that tract of Augustine shall finde the Manichees to whom he speaketh farre like◠you then vs. S. Augustine saied vnto your semblables Sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio h I would you would go on with Augustine and saie if that be found with you it is more worth then al the rest and that you would be contented to try that by the scriptures as he was and then you would sure so many of you as haue any grace quickly ioyne with vs. I saie no more at this time but that I beseech God to drawe you as neere to vs as you are farre from vs and to inspire your mindes to turne to the flocke of Christ the which both to your owne harme and ours you haue forsaken The XLII Chapter THere is no question of that but that euery one is to begin first to reforme himselfe and the Lord giue both vs and you grace effectually so to doe But if neither side should call vpon the other for reformation vntill the one side were growen wholy cleare of sinne you know well enough that then they must neuer doe it For what company and society of men euer was there but therein was some bad as well as good As Adam had an Abel so had he a Caine. There was an Ismael as well as an Isaac in Abrahams house And Isaac had an Esau as well as a Iacob Amongst the eight that were saued in the Arke there was a Cham. In the foure that left Sodom one that looked backe And amongst Christs 12. Apostles there was a Iudas Yea Christ hath taught vs by the parable of the good seede and tares Math. 13. that we are to expect no other in Gods owne field but that euen vnto the haruest there wil be a mixture alwaies of bad with good But you charge vs further that amongst vs there are many kinde of vsuries and interests and that though one way we care not for your images yet we loue them so well an other way that we haue robbed your churches of them Whereunto my answere is that we cānot deny but there are too many amongst vs who by such vnlawfull meanes seeke to enrich thēselues and that there are too too many profane and carnall men that haue our religiō in their mouthes who by their lewd conuersation dishonour the glorious gospell of Iesus Christ we are most hartely sory for it and dayly pray vnto God for amendmēt thereof But this we must tell you that we preach against al sinne impiety whatsoeuer and namely against vsury and al tumultuous and disorderly spoiling of churches of such thinges as you talke of And our Religion and the lawes in our common weale condemne and disalow such dealing therefore we are wronged that in these things we generally or our religiō at al should be charged Surely many of our vsurers extreame dealing men amongst vs are either men of no Religion or yours rather then ours neither doe I thinke where your Religion is in greatest credit that in those common weales vsury lieth dead and buried Sure I am your Popes haue beene for a long time the cunningest and vnreasonablest vsurers in the whole world in that they haue sold their palles their lead and other their hallowed ware which are indeede trifles and thinges of no valewe for such summes of money and gold as they haue You flatly slaunder vs in saying that there are some of vs that affirme we are wholy without spot or sinne For we both detest that opinion and count them that should holde so euen worthy to be detested for their so holding Yet you say if it were so that ought not to moue you to leaue your religion taught you by your forefathers What a sound ground of Religion forefathers without distinction is I haue shewed sufficiently already In which point I would alwaies haue the Christian to learne to distinguish betwixt the olde and ancient forefathers the Apostles and their successours in doctrine and life in the primitiue church and the later forefathers and neuer to thinke the latter worthy following any further then they haue followed the former and then the danger of this dart is auoided And that it is reason we should follow them no further we may learne in that Paul himselfe 1. Cor. 11. requireth no further to be followed then he followed Christ But you haue a further reason not to be moued from your Religion for our life were it neuer so Godly because Christ though he was without sin and confirmed his doctrine both by the anciēt scriptures and Iohn Baptists testimony yet he saied that if he had not done in their presence the workes and miracles that neuer mā did before him they had had no sinne Iohn 15.24 For hereof you gather that you may securely whatsoeuer we say vnto you or howsoeuer we liue refuse vs and our Religion and continue in your owne still as long as we proue not the lawfulnes of our vocation and the goodnes of our Religion by miracles For you know no cause you say why we should be more priuiledged then Christ This argument you vrged before cap. 30. and there I answered it Where I haue shewed you amōgst diuers other reasons that there was this especiall reasō that Christ should worke such miracles as he did to proue himselfe the Messias because expressely the Prophets had prophecied that he so should when he came which reason you cannot shew why now wee should work miracles For the Prophecies that were giuen forth by Paul 2. Thess 2.
and by Iohn Reuel 14. of the consumption of Antichrist and fall of Babylon shew onely that the Lorde would doe it by the spirit of his mouth in the preaching of the euerlasting Gospell That therefore is it onely that we are to approue our selues by to be the men that the Lorde will vse to that purpose And yet herein we take not vpon vs greater priuiledge then Christ For we accoūt that an especiall priuiledge of his that he was so to confirme his doctrine by miracles as that after the confirmation of it so by him his Apostles and the recording of it in the new Testament as it is it should thenceforth stand so firme that it should be an intollerable signe of incredulity amongst them especially that pretend they reuerence and receaue the scriptures as you would seeme to doe euer to require miracles more to confirme the same doctrine by You were not best therefore to perswade your selues in this sort the howsoeuer it be with your religion otherwise yet you shal be at the least without blame for your not receiuing of ours because we work no miracles Deceiue not your selues It is not with you now in respect of vs and our doctrine as it was then with the Iewes in respect of him and his Then that he was the particuler person of the Messias that therefore he being come the ceremonies of Moses law should cease and giue place to his sacraments c was a thing to be proued that by miracles because it was before prophecied whereas now those things long ago haue beene sufficiently confirmed and therefore we preaching vnto you no other doctrine but that so already confirmed and requiring no further to be credited then we can so proue our doctrine especially seeing the prophecies cōcerning these later daies shew rather y◠Antichrist and his Chaplaines shal come and seeke to preuaile by miracles then the Lords faithful pastours you haue no such reason as they had nor indeed any at all to require miracles at our hands But you say vnto vs as Augustine saied vnto the Manichees contra epist Fundam cap. 4. sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio with you there is no other sound but promise that you haue the truth Whereunto adde the words that immediatly follow and you are answered For he addeth which yet if you can make appeare is so cleare of your side that it may not be doubted of is to be preferred before all those things that otherwise holde me in the Catholique Church Be you of this minde once with Augustine and then learne this one other lesson of him do vnitate ecclesiae contra Petil. cap. 3. Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrari I will not haue demonstration made of the church by humane documents but by the diuine oracles And so say vnto vs as he saied there vnto Petilian let vs seeke the Church and so discusse our cause by the scriptures beholde they are common vnto vs both beholde there we haue knowen Christ beholde there we haue knowen the church c. Take this course once with vs and I doubt not whatsoeuer you brag to the contrary but we shall thereby be able to iustifie both our vocation and Religion and to make it appeare that we haue not onely a bragge of trueth with you and the Manichees but the very trueth it selfe And this being proued thē you must yeelde with Augustine that it is to be preferred before all other outward thinges whatsoeuer that haue kept you hitherto in an other Religion and church yea then you must confesse notwithstanding all your obiections otherwise against vs of nouelty paucity iars in opinion and whatsoeuer else yet it is your dueties to ioyne with vs in receauing of this trueth Wherefore vnlesse you will let all other bie matters go and enter once into this question with vs in earnest whether your Religion or ours be the trueth and for the triall thereof will stand to the scriptures interpreted according to the sound and alwaies vsed rules of interpreting them colour your refusing thus to doe with what colours possibly you can you too too grossely be wray the badnesse of your cause and euidently shewe that you onely seeke shifts hoales and corners to escape as long as you may the discredit therof And your owne frends will they nill they shal be inforced to see the same You conclude with prayer that we may drawe as neare you as we are farre from you and that we may turne to the flock of Christ the which both to your hurt and our owne you say we haue forsaken Insteede of Amen to yours I beseech the Lord of all mercies and father of our Lord Iesus Christ that it would please him of his infinit goodnes and mercy euen for his deare sonne Iesus sake to open the eies of your mindes and so to touch your hearts as that you may haue grace with vs to come out of Babylon and to leaue that garish whore of Rome with all her abhominations and so to ioyne with vs in the true communion of Saints and fellowship of the trueth and spirit that both you and we may dwell togither as brethren in one house agree and growe togither as members of one body rest togither as sheepe of one flocke vnder one father God almighty vnder one head shepheard Christ Iesus through the mighty working of the holy Ghost to Gods glory and our owne euerlasting comfort Amen FINIS A short answere to a new offer not published at the first when D. Fulke and Master Carter answered the 22. demands whereunto it is now annexed the ground and matter whereof is an enumeration of six certaine and assured signes and tokens as the offerer calleth them of Antichristians false prophets heretiques and schismatiques mentioned in diuerse places of the scripture COncerning these sixe signes welbeloued this is his offer that if by the learned protestāt they can be proued more aptly and truely to agree to him his fellowes of the commō knowen catholick church of Christ thē vnto the protestāts of so many sundry and diuers sects and congregations that then he wil submit yeelde recant and not before Learned protestant I take my selfe to be none howbeit finding as I did when I tooke first in hand to answer Iohn de Albines former discourse that the publisher thereof had therewithall published not only the offer of a proud papist to a learned protestant cōsisting of 22. challenges or demaunds long ago answered by the men aboue named but also with this new addition of these six signes and then not vnderstanding though it had beene thus abroad many years amōgst vs in English that any learned or vnlearned had vouchsafed to answer it though I thought it needles to answer againe the offer of 22. demaunds so wel answered by the foresaied mē before that the authour thereof neuer since had pleasure to reply I thought it yet
euer those that are sanctified Heb. 10. that he is able to saue perfectly those that come vnto God by him He. 7. that as there is but one God so there is but one mediatour betwixt God and man the man Christ Iesus 1. Tim. 2. and that S. Paul most confidently tolde the Galathians that if with that opinion that the false Apostles had taught them they would be circumcised Christ should profit them nothing at all they were falne from grace Gal. 5. And yet notwithstanding the most cleare and plaine euidence of these scriptures and sundry other places to the like effect so giuen is the church of Rome that now is and hath beene a long time to spoile Christ of a great part of this special honor glory that is due vnto him that it can abide nothing in the world worse then that men should he driuen by the schoolemaster the law out of themselues quite in Christ fully and freely soly and wholy by faith to seeke for their iustification here and saluation hereafter And therefore in it that in the deepe policy of Sathan to blunt the edge of the law that it haue not this force to breake and make contrite the heart of man with the ougly sight of his owne infinite sinnes and punishments due vnto him for the same to driue him to hunger and thirst after that effectuall iustification and saluation offered vnto men by the gospell in Christ they teach that man hath free-will to good that concupiscence or the first motions to sinne rising in man not consented vnto are no sinne that many sinnes euen for their owne littlenes are veâ—iall that by good deedes man may satisfied God for his misdeedes that man may fulfill the law yea that man may haue workes of supererogation more then hee needes for his owne saluation and that men by their workes maie merit a great part of their owne saluation yea haue merits both before iustification flowing from their pure natural faculties and powers to prouoke GOD to thinke it congruum that is meete and conuenient that euen therefore hee should bestow his grace vpon them and after merits de condigno that eueÌ„ for their very worthines deserue an euerlasting reward of blisse at Gods hand both for themselues and others And when they would seeme to be come vnto Christ and to beleeue in him yet in no case wil they trust to him alone and that that hee hath done and still doeth for them but then his sufferinges and their owne his merits and their owne and their frendes his sacrifice and their owne in their masse his mediation and the mediation of Saints and angels and an hundreth things els euen childish and rediculous for the matter of saluation must be trusted vnto That it is thus all the world seeth and they themselues in printed bookes stand vpon it that it must be thus and that we are heretiques because we will not let them alone in thus apparelling themselues their frends and their toies with the spoiles of our Christ and so their very glory is their shame A Christ that is so base minded in the office of iustifying and sauing of mens soules thus to be iumbled and ioined with so many partners and helpers is a Christ of their owne deuising such an one doubtles as we can heare no news of either in old or new testameÌ„t And therefore out of all question they shall finde that whiles they run a madding after this fansied new Christ of their owne the old true Christ will profit them nothing at all and that they are quite fallen from grace No man whose eies God hath opened aright either to vnderstand the law or the gospel but seeing and knowing these things to be true of them he must needs thinke and bee resolued that popery is euen that mystery of iniquity that Saint Paul speaketh of 2. Thess 2. and that the papists be flat those flase teachers that Saint Peter speaketh of 2. Epistle chap. 3. Which priuily should bring in damnable heresies euen denying the Lorde that hath bought them and so bring vpon themselues swift damnation whom yet many should follow and by whom the way of trueth should bee euill spoken of c. It is needfull therefore I would thinke especialy considering how earnest Saint Peter is there to perswade men to shun such for vs to leaue them and forsake them as we haue the thing which in this behalfe we haue especially to mourne for is that we forsooke them no sooner Howbeit though the better to countenance their Church and religion and to proue vs in thus forsaking of them to haue brought in such a schism as he talketh of he would make thee christian reader beleeue that all the world were at vnity with them in their faith and false bragge as if thou readest the fourth chapter of my answere to Albine and the 11. 37. thou shalt most plainely see It seemeth the man was very impudent or very childishly ignoraÌ„t of histories that would thus write For who of any learning or reading is ignorant that not onely the Greeke church and other Easterne Churches some hundreth yeares before the time that he speaketh of brake of communion with them but that also euen here in these Westerne parts in France Bohemia here in England and elswher long before this time Petrus Valdus Iohn Wickliffe Iohn Hus Hierom of Prage had so many followers and pertakers against them and their abhominations that for all the tyranny and most sauage persecutions that they haue vsed to roote them out by from time to time that yet notwithstanding they haue continued doe will stil in one place or other maugre all their malice euen to recompence that whore of Babylon as shee hath deserued at their hands As for the variety of opinions amongst vs that he vpbraydeth vs withall it is an obiection that Iohn de Albine often harped vpon therefore which in answering of him I haue sufficiently I hope answered Only this therfore to yâ— I further say here that though they be more and greater then we like of yet they are nether so great nor many as these our aduersaries by amplifying of this obiectioÌ„ by multiplying of names would seeme to make theÌ„ nor yet in such points but that notwithstanding we all agree in the fundamentall most principal points of christiaÌ„ religion whereby we hope it will thorow Gods goodnes come to passe that we shall shortly also grow to vnity in the rest In the meane time sure I am that they whom by any reason he may say be of vs for our holding felowship and coÌ„munion togither in our confession of the christian faith are all amongst our selues at farre more vnity then such as he liketh of at far better vnity then they be or euer haue beene since they departed froÌ„ vs. As for the Anabaptists diuers others whom sometime they charge vs in this case also withall they know wel enough we
9. p. 322. Auricular confession coÌ„futed at large c 37. p. 322. c B. BAptisme and the ceremonies at large spoken of 308. c. Baptisme that is outward sometimes separate from regeneration 280. c. Baptisme bindeth not alwaies the baptised to be of his religion that baptised him p. 395. 410. Bad alwaies intermingled with good 404. Beza defended against Albines slanders 400 Bondage vnder poperie as great as Israels vnder Pharao 170. c. Bohemians doings coÌ„sidered and defended 291. c. C. CAluins argument against the popish priesthoode that it is not of God vnanswered by Albine p. 5. Ceremonies popish how and when many of them came in and how withstood C. p. 15. 16. Colliers faith what it is 222 Christ will bee a whole and sole Sauiour or else no Sauiour at all 419. Christs Church perpetuall but not alwaies visible in the popish sence 37. c. 122. 413. c. Church why called catholicke and so the popish church is not catholicke p. 360. Contentions and varieties of opinions amongst Christians no news they ought not to preiudice the trueth 68. 69. 250. Contentious popish many and great 70. 71. 97. 252. c. Corpus Christi day when and by whom it came in 161. Caiphas had not the spirit of prophesie as Albine would seem he had 94. 95 Crueltie of papists in seeking to preuaile to stand by force 155. c. 291. c. Cathechising in popery how bad it hath bene 179. c. Councels haue erred and that euen papists confesse 230. c. Communion vnder one kind is but a new deuise 159. Christ was to proue his calling by miracles and yet not we 188. c. 403. D. DEdicating of bookes to great persons hath good and ancient presidents A. p. 11. and 12. Departure from the Roman Church that now is lawfull 149. 394. 417. c. 409. c. E. EDucation bindeth not the party to bee alwaies of their religion that brought him vp 181. to be read but not so as to discourage the simple from the study of them 205. 208 c. Scriptures alleadged in their true sence the ground that protestants staÌ„d vpoÌ„ 205 c. Scriptures though neuer so much abused by heretiques yet by them they must be confuted 226. Scriptures must expound scriptures 47. 210. 224. Scriptures they which alleadge best they are to be followed 245 c. Scriptures must trie who hath the spirit of God 222 c. Scriptures are to bee studied and read of all men 209 c. Scriptures shamefully spoken of by papists the better to shun triall by them 82 c. 212 c. Scriptures fondely allâ—adged and applied by Papists 35 c. 218. Scriptures in some sence may well be vnderstoode according to the tradition of the Church 87. 393. Scriptures whither rightlier alleadged by protestants or papists examined 215. 216. c Scriptures are so alleaged by protestaÌ„ts that they therfore are to be beleeued and neither papist nor heretique 215 c. Scriptures are both iudge and witnes 262. Scriptures are the only souÌ„d touchstoÌ„e both of trueth church al. 33 c. 46 c. 244 406. Scriptures by Papists thought neuer to bee soundly interpreted but according to the present practise of the Roman Church 214. 219. Sinne is more strictely condemned by protestants then by papists 285. 404. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Personall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither Locall 25 c. SuccessioÌ„ papists haue neither not reall 21 c. 27 Succession Popish we reiect not so much for their bad liues as doctrine 92. 301. Succession neither locall nor personall anie certaine note of trueth 27 c. Succession in the trueth the onely succession indeede to be stood simply vpon 31 c. Supper of the Lord wonderfully peruerted of the Papists 31. 416. Supremacy of the Pope new how by whoÌ„ it came vp and by whom still resisted p. 11. c 161. c. T. Traditions beside the word writen countenanced by abusing of Irenaeus and others p. 1 2. 76 c. Traditions vnwriteÌ„ the ground of popery C. p. 5. p. 82. Traditions beside and contrary to the word writen reiected by the fathers C. 2. p. 46 78. c. 224. c. Traditions spoken for and allowed by the fathers alwaies warranted by the scriptures C. p. 2 3. Traditions vnwriten heretiques commonly flie vnto eueÌ„ as the papists doe p. 5 6 33. Transubstantiation wheÌ„ it came in and how confuted D. 7 8. p. 109. Tree that is good bringeth forth good fruit and in what sence that is to be taken 274 278. c. Trueth is to be preferred before custome all things else C. p. 7. 86. 100. 406. Trueth is not tied to bishops mouthes and chaires 28. 29. 94. 95. 151. c. Trueth is most ancient and that is it that came from the Apostles 102. Turkes and Iewes take occasion the more to be hardened for the popish doctrine of Images and transubstantiation 217. V. VIsible demonstrable succession is neither certaiâ—e note of Church not trueth 28 â—7 c. 51. Vnity and Christian peace may and ought to be kept in the Church though the rites be diuers 312. c. Vnity vnlesse it bee in verity men are not to continue in 417. c. Vnity in euery thing followeth not vpon right praying for the spirit 247. c. Vnity papists haue not though they bragge thereof neuer so much 70. 71. 97. 246. 252. Vnâ—uersalitie indeed the Romish Church hath not 388 c. Vocation ordinary hath not alwaies beene found in them that haue beene meanes of the conuersion of nations that haue profitably preached 30. 123. c. Vocation may be good and lawfull though the called haue faults 131. Vocation of what sort popish prelates haue 14 c. Vowes in popery foolish and superstitious 306. c. W. VVAnts and faultes of the Church to reforme men are not bound onely to vse praier 141. Way that is narrow both for life and religion is to bee preferred before the broad way 395. c. Workes that are good indeed rather founde with protestants theÌ„ with papists 280. c. 286. 404. FINIS Faults escaped in printing through the absence of the authour the hardnes and smalnes of the hand wherein the copy was offered to the presse and the vnacquaintance of the ouerseers with the same A. p. 1 l. 26 â— why for when 4. 16. before for vnto B. 1. 7 the for that l. 33. the for their 15. 16 for second 11. l. 20 when for whom l. 35 for the their C. 1. 12 pruning for prouing 7. 12 them for them l. 25 put in I say next therefore 12. 23 for first sixt 15. 11 put out of desposed the first s D. 2. 9 Paula for pacta and in Armonians e for o and in Moralia is for l. 6. 9. put in next them they doe 7. 1 that for the 9. 34
yet without fruit to the receiuer the benefit indeed arising by his presence onely to the faith of the communicant the matter is not of so great moment weight as that either you should neede to make such a doe about or that the maintainers therof should neede to striue so eagerly for Which I hope God will in his good time reueale vnto them and so make them to giue ouer their contention and to grow into vnity in this matter with their brethren I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter that you verie greatly belie vs when you write that we haue giuen absolute sentence that the catholique Church hath erred euen from the Apostles times vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are dead constituted in a third place called Purgatorie For both your deuyses of Purgatorie and of praying to God for the releife of soules there wee saie and constantly defend to bee but popish deuises founde out and grounded but vpon humane reason dreames and fond visions and apparitions and neither taught by the Apostles nor any true pastour of the Church of Christ for three hundred yeares at least after Christ Tertullian was the first and that in a booke writen by him when hee was a Montanist that makes any mention towardes the allowance of prayer for the dead And vntill the Florentine councell the greeke Church could not be brought to ioine with you in this doctrine of yours as you knowe well inough And therefore it had beene more for your credit and honestie to haue spared this your merrie conceit and pleasant deuise of wishing vs though wee refuse your Purgatory to prouide a thirde place for them whom our contentions make constant on neither side For either if you had beene wise you would haue vttered that your conceit with more trueth in your first entrance into it or els you would haue let it alone for altogither The XXIX Chapter IT doeth appeare well by that that I haue saied howe the assurance of your vocation to the ministerie is but founded vpon sande for asmuch as you doe seeke particulerlie a contrarie meaning euerie one to his ovvne particuler sense beeing not this the waie that an extraordinary minister sent from God shoulde vse to confirme his doctrine for this hath beene the custome of all olde heretiques as I haue alreadie saied There is a verie great difference betweene setting forth the Scripture to refourme ones religion and to reforme ones conditions for when there is anie question of the refourming of ones maners a Good stuffe by this diuinity then men may by the warrant of the Apostle take the scriptures in diuers and sundry sences there is no need to regard whether the doctrine be new or olde for as the Apostle saieth let euery man take it to his owne sense but when it is to bee talked of as touching ones faith the Catholique ought greatly to beware of b And such be all they whosoeuer made them that will not stand with the rest of the scriptures of whâ—ch kinde your popish interpretations be singular interpretations and to holde them as very suspitious c If this rule be receiued and followed your popery will bee found new deuises and wil you nil you you shall become all one with 〈◊〉 He ought to follow the sentence that is holden and taught by the ancient Catholique Church without making any accompt of al these new deuises for euen as when one will repaire an olde house he dares commit it to any mason although his cunning bee but small but if the foundation must be touched he will seeke the best masters he can finde Euen so when one will correct me for my euill life or conditions although that it be so that he that seekes to reforme me be not of the wisest of the worlde and that he alleadge to me some place or figure of the scripture not altogither to the purpose yet all this ought to turne to me to one effect for I knowe his meaning although he cannot well expresse it the which is to haue me change my naughty life and to leaue my ill conditions d But all the packe of you shall neuer be able to proue â—opery to be thus grounded But when he shall come to touch my faith and to perswade me froÌ„ that that all my ancetours did euer holde from that that the Catholique church deriued from the Apostles hath holden and doeth holde and from that that both the Scripture and the generall Councels and all the ancient doctours teach and affirme in the repaire of this foundation I ought to trust none but euen the verie best I meane not one or two but all these that I haue named And now if you saie that they maie all erre I praie remember the olde prouerbe that saieth he is a foole that thinketh that he onlie is wise and all the other fooles that it is more agreeable to reason that one onely should erre then one great multitude for as they say commonly two eies see more then one and foure more then two The XXIX Chapter WHat you haue gained by all you haue hitherto writen to disproue either our vocatioÌ„ or Religion for all your great bragge here in the beginning of this Chapter by weighing togither your obiections and my answers now let the indifferent Reader iudge vnto whom I doubt not your bragge notwithstanding it shall and will well appeare that both may be builded vpon the rocke for any thing you haue yet saied The onely new thing that you set downe in this Chapter is this that the former variety amongst theÌ„ that alleadge scripture considered you allow well that one should listen to meane men alleadging scripture though not very aptlie to reforme maners withall But when they are alleadged to teach faith then it is meete that the Catholique man trust none but the best and those alleadging them according to the general Councels and all ancient doctours And therefore you write that the Catholique must take heede of singular interpretations that he must follow the sentence helde taught by the ancient Catholique Church not suffer himselfe to be perswaded from that faith that all his ancetours did euer holde the Catholique Church hath euer helde the Scriptures generall Councels and all the ancieÌ„t doctours doe teach In which case if one should take vpoÌ„ him to be wiser then all these you would haue him according to the prouerbe accounted a foole that thinketh himselfe onely wise and all others fooles because in reason it is more likely that one should erre then al these c. Be it that al this were very true what haue you woonne hereby against vs For neither shall you euer be able to proue as we haue often tolde you that your religion is that ancient Catholique religion nor your Church to be the ancient catholique Church nor that your Church hath either the Scriptures general councels or