Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
religion_n	church_n	true_a	visible_a	7,129	5	9.3865	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A00791	An answer to a pamphlet, intituled: The Fisher catched in his owne net In vvhich, by the vvay, is shevved, that the Protestant Church was not so visible, in al ages, as the true Church ought to be: and consequently, is not the true Church. Of which, men may learne infallible faith, necessarie to saluation. By A.C.	A. C.; Champney, Anthony, 1569?-1643?, attributed name.; Sweet, John, 1570-1632, attributed name.; Floyd, John, 1572-1649, attributed name.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641, attributed name.	1623 (1623)	STC 10910.4; ESTC S107710	44,806	106

argument according to the Protestant Relator M. Fisher. I distinguish the Maior That Church whose Faith is perpetual and vnchanged so as the names of the Professors may be shewed is so visible as the Catholike Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretendeth the Roman Church to be I grant it That Church whose Faith is perpetual and vnchanged yet so as the names cannot be shewed in al ages is visible as the Catholike Church ought to be and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be I denie it To the Minor I apply the like distinction and consequently to the Conclusion in the same manner D. Featly What answer you to the Conclusion also This is a straine of new Logick This idle exception M. Fisher attending to the matter did not regard but might haue told him That it is not vnuseal after a distinction made both to Maior and Minor to apply the like to the Conclusion For although it be true That in a Syllogisme when Maior and Minor are absolutely granted the Conclusion must not be denyed nor distinguished but must be absolutely granted yet when Maior and Minor also be distinguished the Conclusion may be distinguished And I maruaile what Rule of Logick D. Featly can bring against this In like manner if D. Featly did say any such words as the Relator telleth viz. A strange distinction of the eternitie of Faith by Professors to be named and not to be named What are Professors nominable or innominable to the eternitie of Faith If I say D. Featly did say these words it is like M. Fisher did not regard them as being impertinent but might haue said That this distinction had not relation to eternal Faith but to a Church which hath eternal Faith about which it imports much to know whether it hath Professors nominable or innominable For if it hath not it is inuisible or at least not so visible as the true Catholike Church of which al sorts in times past haue learned and in time to come must learne the infallible Diuine Faith necessarie to Saluation ought to be Therefore M. Fisher might wel though I thinke he did not say as the Relator telleth Tolle distinctionem and conclude that which I denie That the Faith of the Protestant Church is so eternal as the names of visible Protestants in al ages may be shewed To proue this D. Featly made this argument according to the Protestant Relator D. Featly That Church whose Faith is the Catholike and Primitiue Faith once giuen to the Saints without which no man can be saued is so perpetual as the names may be shewed in al ages But the Faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue and Catholike Faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Ergo The Faith of the Protestant Church is so perpetual as the names may be shewed in al ages Note here That the Relator putteth in the Margent ouer-against the Minor Tollitur distinctio But how false this Marginal Note is appeareth to any who wil reflect vpon what the Distinction was and what I haue now said of it For this Minor speaking onely of Faith doth not take away the distinction applyed to the Church That which D. Featly thinketh to be a straine of new Logicke to wit to distinguish vpon a proposition without applying the distinction to any particular tearme is not so strange as he maketh it As for example When one saith An Aethiopian is white neyther the tearme Aethiopian alone nor the tearme White alone in it selfe needeth distinction because it is not Aequiuocal but the whole proposition being Amphibological needeth it being true if it be meant The Aethiopian is white in the Teeth and false if it be meant He is white in his whole Bodie To the argument M. Fisher said I denie the Minor But marking that hereupon D. Featly would haue transferred the Question to endlesse disputes about particular Controuersies from the present general Question about the perpetual visible Church whose Professors names as himselfe saith may be shewed in al ages M. Fisher I say marking this would not let D. Featly make his proofe but hauing said I denie the Minor he presently added by way of explication these ensuing words My first Question was Whether there must not be a true visible Church of Christ in al ages of which al sorts must learne that infallible Faith which is necessarie to Saluation and therefore we must first finde such a Church before men can know it to be such as they may securely learne of it what is the infallible Faith necessary to Saluation While M. Fisher was beginning to make this explication D. Featly insulted as if M. Fisher durst not for Conscience denie the Minor absolutely To whom M. Fisher said I doe absolutely denie it And then he went forward with the aforesaid explication Which ended M. Fisher said And hereupon I answer againe to the said Minor If this proposition be taken simply in it selfe I absolutely denie it but if this proposition be considered as it must be as related to the first Question and the end thereof I further adde That it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended viz. To shew to those who were not able by their owne abilities to finde out the infallible Faith necessarie to Saluation without learning of the true visible Church of Christ and consequently Visibilitie of the Church is first to be shewed before the truth of Doctrine in particular shal be shewed To this as the Relator saith D. Featly replyed viz. First What speake you of those who are not able by their owne abilities to finde out Faith Is any man able by his owne abilitie without the helpe of Diuine Grace Secondly What helpeth the Visibilitie to confirme the Truth of the Church Visibilitie indeed proues a Church but not the true Church These words eyther were not spoken or M. Fisher did not regard them being in the middest of his answer in which he went on shewing the necessitie of a visible Church by a saying of D. Fields viz. Seeing the Controuersies of Religion at this day are so many in number and so intricate in nature that few haue time and leysure fewer strength of wit and vnderstanding to examine them what remaineth for men desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence but diligently to seeke out which among al the Societies of men in the World is that Spouse of Christ the Church of the liuing God which is the Pillar of the Truth that so they may embrace her Communion follow her Direction and rest in her Iudgement M. Fisher therefore I say being busily speaking this did not regard what D. Featly did then say but might easily haue answered First That he neuer meant that any were able of themselues without helpe of Gods grace to attaine the true Faith which hindreth not but that some may haue that abilitie of Wit and Learning by which they can

answered nor consequently he satisfied Moreouer the same Gentleman being present whē the Earle of Warwick told M. Fisher that D. Featly should at another tyme come againe to giue Names of Protestants in other Ages he might easily and doubtles did vnderstand that as yet Names in all Ages were not giuen nor consequently the Question satisfied in which he expected answere Furthermore presently after he went away from the Conference he told M. Fisher himselfe that he was glad that at the next meeting his Question should be answered which shewed that as yet he did not conceiue it to be answered Lastly diuers dayes after all the trouble and styrre was past which was made about the Conference the old Gentleman was not so resolute a Protestant as the Relator pretendeth for meeting M. Fisher and M. Sweete he desired them to giue him a Catalogue of Names of Professors of the Romā Church saying that if after this the Doctors should not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants he should dislike their cause Which Catalogue M. Fisher and M. Sweete haue ready for him but will not deliuer till he get the Doctours to make theirs ready that he may bring to them the Doctours Catalogue with one hand and receiue theirs with the other to deliuer to the Doctours All that can be suspected is that in the very tyme of the sayd styrre when the old Gentleman eyther was or feared to be called in question it may perhaps be that he might say those words which the Relator mētioneth but this if it were was only vpon frailty or humane feare of trouble and not any firme and settled resolution grounded vpon the Conference sith both before and after he shewed a contrary mynd as hath byn sayd As for other idle and false reports of a great Lady or any other Catholiks sayd to haue ben turned Protestants vpon this Conference I neglect them as being notoriously false It may be that some Weaklings who not being present at the Conference nor hauing commodity to heare what passed but from the lying lyps of some Protestants Who reported that Fisher was ouercome and had yielded Christ and his Apostles to be Protestants some Weaklings I say might perhaps be staggered vntill they heard the true report that this was only an impudent slaunder vttered by D. Featly but in words and deeds contradicted by M. Fisher. But I make no question so soone as these shall see or heare what is heere related they will be well satisfied and confirmed in the Catholike truth and that euen Protestants themselues will be moued to harken more after the matter And in case their Doctours doe not giue them a better Catalogue of Names of Protestants in all Ages then they did in this Conference they will doubt as they haue cause that the Protestant Church hath not byn so visible in all Ages as euen by D. Featly his argument is proued the true Catholike Church ought to be and consequently that it is not the true Catholike Church which in their Creede they professe to belieue and out of which as euen Caluin confesseth they cannot hope for remission of their sinnes nor saluation of their soules CHAP. IIII. Contayning a Reuiew and Reflection vpon the Premisses NOw hauing made an end of this Relation I am to intreate the Gentle Reader to reuiew it or reflect vpon it and to call to mind and marke 1. The occasion and consequently the end of the disputation 2. The Question and true meaning of it 3. What Methode was most fit to haue been obserued in treating of this question 4. What course was taken by the Protestant Disputant what by the Catholike Respondent All which being duely considered thou wilt better see what is to be iudged of the whole Conference and wilt make to thy selfe more benefit of the matter treated in it then perhaps hitherto thou hast done §. 1. About the Occasion and end of the Conference 1. The occasion of this Dispute was as thou hast heard in the Relation that a certaine old Protestant Gentleman was told as the truth is that there is no saluation out of the true Catholike Church and that to belieue the Catholike Church is one of the Articles of the Creed which euery Christian is bound to belieue and know and that this Church was no other besides the most auncient and vniuersally spread ouer the world the knowne Catholike Roman Church which hath had and can yet shew visible Pastours other Professors in all Ages and that the Protestant Church wherof for the present he was a member sprung vp of late and could not be the true Church of Christ as not hauing had as Christs true Church ought to haue Pastours and Doctours and lawfully sent Preachers so visible as the Names of them may be shewed in all Ages out of good Authors And this was the occasion of the dispute for heerupon the old Gentleman was so much moued in conscience to doubt of the Protestants Religion that he could not be quiet till he had made meanes to get this matter discussed in a Conference betwixt Catholike and Protestant Deuines in such sort as in the Relation hath byn told And therfore the end of this Conference was to giue this old Gentleman and others that should heare it satisfaction in this most important necessary point I call this point most important and necessary in regard the certainty of euery other point belieued by infallible diuine Fayth necessary to saluation dependeth vpon it For although euery point belieued by diuine Faith be in it selfe most true and by reason of the Diuine reuelation made knowne to the world by Christ his Apostles most certaine and infallible yet this truth infallible certainty therof is not made knowne to vs according to the ordinary course of Gods prouidence but only by the meanes which God hath appointed to wit by Pastors Doctors and Preachers of the true visible Church of Christ. §. 2. About the Question and meaning of it The Question propounded to be treated in the Conference vpon the occasion and for the end aforesayd was Whether the Protestant Church was visible in all Ages especially in the Ages before Luther and whether the Names of such visible Protestants may be shewed in all Ages out of good Authors The reason why this question was proposed rather then any other was for that the old Gentleman was already perswaded that there must be in all Ages a visible Church of Christ hauing in it visible Pastors Doctors and lawfully sent Preachers who are by Almighty God appointed and authorized to teach and of whom all sorts of people are commaunded warranted to learne infallible Fayth necessary to saluatiō And further that this Church and these her Pastors Preachers haue byn in all Ages past not only visible but so visible as the Names at least of some Pastours teaching and some people learning the true Fayth in all Ages might be produced

AN ANSWER TO A PAMPHLET INTITVLED THE FISHER CATCHED IN HIS OWNE NET IN VVHICH BY THE VVAY IS SHEVVED That the Protestant Church was not so visible in al Ages as the true Church ought to be and consequently is not the true Church Of which men may learne infallible Faith necessarie to Saluation By A. C. MATTH 28. vers 19 20. Going teach al Nations baptizing them c. Behold I am with you AL DAYES euen to the consummation of the World EPHES. 4. vers 11 14. Christ gaue some Apostles and some Prophets othersome Euangelists and othersome PASTORS and DOCTORS c. that we be not Children WAVERING and CARRIED ABOVT with euerie winde of Doctrine c. M. D. C. XXIII THE PREFACE GEntle Reader although I doubt not but al that be wise and iudicious especially if they duly consider the occasion and state of the question lately treated in a Conference betwixt D. White and D. Featly Ministers and M. Fisher and M. Sweet Iesuits wil easily discerne euen by that false Relation which is set out in print by a Protestant that the Protestants Cause hath not gained any thing Neuerthelesse because those who be partially affected or of meane capacitte may as it is to be doubted diuers doe conceiue and speake amisse of this matter to the disgrace of the Catholike Cause and the preiudice of their owne and other mens soules I haue thought it needful to set out a true Relation of the occasion progresse and issue of that Conference and this in such sort as diuers falsehoods of the Protestant Relator may be easily perceiued and the weakenesse of the Protestants Cause may be euidently discouered which is also so bad as it seemeth it cannot be supported but by setting out such lying Relations the sight and consideration whereof maketh me more easily beleeue that to be true which I haue read viz. That a decree was made by Diuines in Geneua defyning it lawful to lye for the honor or credit of the Gospel and that conformably to this decree an English Minister being told that one of his Powfellowes had made lyes in stead of proofes of his Protestant Religion did answer saying He cannot lye too much in this cause It must needes be a weake and bad cause that needeth to be supported by such weake and bad shifts I for my part wil not promise to haue perfectly remembred and set downe euery word that passed in this Conference especially spoken by by-standers nor to haue strictly obserued the precise order of euerie passage but for the substance and truth of the matter that I doe relate I assure that there shal not be found any falsehood vnlesse it be in some of those Parcels which I doe not relate of my selfe but out of the Protestant Relator whose Relation ordinarily as I doe not contradict vnlesse it be vpon necessarie occasion so I doe not intend to approue but simply relating what it saith I wil leaue it to others to iudge what they thinke fit of it Onely this I wil say That euerie one may beleeue it so farre as it relateth any thing which may aduantage the Catholique Defendants and their Cause or disaduantage the Protestant Disputants and their Cause For it is certaine that no man wil lye for the aduantage of his Aduersarie or his Cause nor for his owne disaduantage But in such things as it hath set downe aduantagiously for the Protestant Disputant or his Cause there is iust reason to suspect it in regard I am told that D. Featly himselfe who is said to be the Author hath confessed That more is said in the Relation then was said in the Conference it selfe and I am sure something is left out which was said and something mis-reported This being premised by way of Preface I wil begin to discourse of the matter it selfe CHAP. I. About the first occasion of the Conference in which is shewed that Master Fisher did not seeke it or prouoke his Aduersaries by any challenge vnto it nor did intend to haue it so publike as by his Aduersaries fault it proued The Protestant Relator of this Conference setteth downe the occasion in these words EDWARD BVGGS Esquire about the age of 70. yeeres being lately sicke was solicited by some Papists then about him to forsake the Protestant Faith telling him There was no hope of saluation without the Church there was no Catholike Church but theirs and to beleeue the Catholike Church was the Article of his Creede and by it could no other Church be meant but the Church of Rome because it could not be proued by al the Protestants in the Kingdome that they had any Church before Luther This Gentleman being much troubled in his mind with these and the like suggestions who al his life time had beene and prosessed himselfe a Religious Protestant became now more sicke in mind then body After his recouerie being much troubled in mind with these former suggestions of the Popish Priests he repayred to Sir Humfrey Lynd Knight who by reason of his alliance and long acquaintance with him gaue the best satisfaction that he could to his said Cousin Master Buggs who seemed to take content in such his Conference and to be wel satisfyed by him in al points But the Popish Priests and Iesuits not desisting to creepe in further where they had once made a breach perseuering stil in questioning him where his Church was before Luther Whereupon hee repayred againe to Sir Humfrey Lynd and required some further satisfaction of him concerning that demand And thereupon Sir Humfrey Lynd told him it was first in Christ and the Apostles consequently also conspicuous in the Primitiue Church for 600. yeeres after Christ after which time some errors crept into the Church as diseases into a mans body so that the Church which Luther we acknowledge was in general the same Christian Church as his body was the same substantial body being now wel and lately sicke though different in the qualities c. How farre this parcel of the Relation is true or false I wil not stand to discusse as not yet knowing how or by whom the aforesaid Gentleman came first to doubt of his Church and consequently of his Religion yet I haue some cause to doubt that it is not altogether true especially in that he saith The Popish Priests and Iesuits not desisting to creepe in further where they had ●●ce made a breach perseuering stil in questioning him where his Church was before Luther For I doe not thinke that many if any at al Priests or Iesuits did first put this doubt into the old Gentleman his head nor perseuered in questioning him about it And for Master Fisher in particular I know certainly that hee neuer saw this old Gentleman much lesse did he speake to him in any matter of Religion til that time when Sir Humfrey Lynd first met Master Fisher. The which meeting is mentioned in the Protestant Relation saying thus And after his

it was his aduersaries fault to spend so long time in impertinent Syllogismes which should haue beene imployed in naming and prouing Protestants in al ages which by the prescribed method was first to be done before M. Fisher needed to proue any thing pertaining to the Roman Church Worthily therefore might M. Sweet cal for Names of Protestants and wel might he say That if Protestants had beene in al ages their Names at least some in euery age might be produced Vnto which as the Protestant Relator saith D. Featly replyed saying That is a Non sequitur c. What say you to a People of Africa who if we may beleeue Plinie haue no Names at al M. Boulton Yet they haue descriptions and may be knowne by some Periphrasis D. Featly What say you then to the Heretikes called Acephali who are so called because their Head and Author cannot be named nor particularly described yet the Author was a visible man Are al visible mens Names vpon record Are al the Records that were in former times now to be produced To this Obiection M. Boulton answered That those Acephali held some particular Doctrine which did amount to the nature of a Name sufficient to distinguish them from others insinuating hereby that these Acephali were not Anonymi Further it may be answered That it is not certaine whether they had any particular Author for some say That they were a Companie who in the Controuersie betwixt Iohn the Bishop of Antioch and Ciril of Alexandria behaued themselues like Neutrals submitting themselues to neyther as to their Head Others thinke That they were certaine men who being the fauorers of Petrus Mogus the Heretike did afterwards renounce him from being their Head because he would not accurse the Councel of Calcedon Others say That one Seuerus Bishop of Antioch was their Author But howsoeuer this particular were it dōth not conclude That there could be in al ages visible Professors of the Protestants Faith whereof no Storie nor other ancient Monument maketh mention of Names or Opinions or Places of abode of any of them or of those who opposed them as Stories make mention of some of these circumstances both of the Acephali and whatsoeuer other eminent Professors of euerie true or false Religion We doe not require that al visible mens names should be vpon record nor al Records produced For although to proue such a visible Church as that of our Sauiour Christs described in Scripture to be spread ouer the World a smal number of visible Professors be not sufficient as S. Augustine prooueth against the Donatists yet to shew how confident we are of our cause we for the present onely require That three eminent Protestants Names in al ages be produced out of good Authors But they are so farre from being able to produce three as they cannot name one in euerie age as is clearely prooued in the Protestants Apologie neyther indeed can they abide with any patience when they be much pressed in this Point as appeareth by diuers who haue beene vrged and in particular by D. Featly in this Conference who hauing beene called vpon seueral times to produce Names as he had vndertaken at one time he burst forth into these words set downe by the Protestant Relator What wil nothing content you but a Buttrie-Booke You shal haue a Buttrie-Booke if you wil stay a while Note Reader this Doctors want of grauitie and patience and what a fit Title he giueth to a Catalogue of Names of Protestants who indeed are more like to be found in a Buttrie-Booke then in any good Record of Antiquitie as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther who after his Arostasie more respected the Buttrie then any Ecclesiastical Storie But how vnwilling D. Featly was to bring out this his Buttrie-Booke appeareth in that after the Auditorie had long stayed and often called for the Names of Protestants in al ages which should haue been giuen at first after not onely Catholikes but also diuers of the Protestants being wearie and not willing to heare any more of his dilatorie and impertinent Syllogismes had entreated him to giue ouer his arguments and to produce Names First he said If I should giue ouer M. Fisher would say of me as he said of D. White That I was at a Non plus and therefore I wil goe forward in arguing To which M. Fisher said Then wil I goe forward in answering But the Companie earnestly calling for Names D. Featly bad the Writer set downe in writing That he was willing to proceed but to satisfie the Companie he would diuert vnto the Names Which M. Fisher seeing to be written said Vnlesse this be blotted out it shal be set downe for Answer That hitherto D. Featly hauing diuerted from the chiefe end of the Question wil now speake to the purpose M. Sweet also said That it was a manifest wrong Whereupon the former words were blotted out And it was written as the Protestant Relator sayth That both the Disputants being willing to proceede D. Featly was desired by the Companie to produce the Names of such Protestants as were extant before Luther in al ages This being written and subscribed both by D. Featly and M. Fisher D. Featly proceeded to his Induction But before he would begin to name any he first endeauoured to fore-stal his hearers with an il opinion against M. Fisher saying There is no credit to be giuen to this man who not onely slandered D. White in a former Conference but also falsely writ what passed betwixt M. Musket and my selfe in a certaine Disputation M. Fisher hearing this false slander did rise vp and for the honour of the Truth and clearing of his Credit did before the Audience solemnely protest vpon his Conscience That wittingly and willingly he did neuer wrong eyther D. White or D. Featly in report of any former Conference And if any thing were false written it was not willingly but as the Protestant Writer of this present Conference hath sometimes mistaken the words of the Disputants which as he being warned did correct so did I said M. Fisher. To this nothing was replyed and therefore I suppose that the Audience was wel satisfied of M. Fishers sinceritie in his Relation and writing of the former Disputations After this D. Featly named for the first age our Lord and Sauior Christ and the Twelue Apostles and S. Paul and S. Ignatius after which he stayed a while as if he studyed for more Names but not remembring any more whom he would set downe for the first age he said These not denying others may serue for the first age Then turning to M. Fisher he said Let vs dispute of these No said M. Fisher name first of al ages What said D. Featly wil you not dispute of Christ and his Apostles Yes said M. Fisher in due place but first name the rest in al ages and then I wil answer you What said D. Featly doe not Christ and his Apostles

to insert heere as followeth Right Honourable Lord. I esteeme it a speciall prouidēce of God that your Lordship was present at a late Conference wherin D. White and D. Featly vndertooke to shew against me my companion that the Protestant Church had been visible in all Ages and that their Professors might be named especially in all Ages before Luther Your Lordship may remember the substāce of all the proofe to haue consisted in this That the true Church was alwayes so visible as the Professors therof in all Ages might be named But the Protestants was the true Church we refused to dispute of the Minor because it transferred the question and auoyded that plaine proofe of the visible Church which was then propounded and expected If as they conclude they are able to name their Professors in all Ages why did they refuse to giue vs a Catalogue of theirs as we were ready to haue giuen them another of ours Why went they about to proue they were able to name them when with lesse adoe they might haue named them Where deeds are iustly expected words without deeds are worthily suspected Certainly heerby they are so farr from hauing discharged themselues of the great enterprise they vndertooke as they stand more engaged then before to the performance of it for hauing now professed and acknowledged that the true Church or to vse their owne words the Church which is so visible as the true Catholike Church ought to be and the Church whose fayth is eternall and vnehanged must be is able to name her Professors in all Ages eyther for their owne honour and for the satisfaction of the world they must set downe the Names of their Professors in all Ages or els they shamefully discouer themselues not to be that true and visible vnchanged Church which is able to name them Againe at the length yealding as they did to shew the continuall visibility of their Church by a full induction of their visible Protestants in all Ages which they seemed to vndertake with great confidence why did they sticke in the first Age alone refusing to name their Professors in the Ages following vntill the first were tryed May not the Answerer choose to deny which parte of the Argument he pleaseth And was it euer heard that he should be inforced to reply to one proposition alone before the whole Argument whether it were Syllogisme or Induction were fully propounded Very Nobly therfore prudently your Lordship in the end desired another meeting not doubting that your owne party within 3. or 4. dayes would be content to giue vs the Names of their Professors in all Ages as we were ready to giue them the Names of ours that therby both sides might be the better prepared for a second Tryall which whē they haue performed we shall not fayle to encounter with them eyther by way of speach or wryting as your Lordship all things considered shall thinke fairest or safest or most conuenient for the discouery of Truth But if your Lordship shall not be able to obtaine at their hands this your most iust and important Request the defect of proof on their part must needs be accounted a plaine flight and no man hereafter can prudently relye his saluation vpon that Church which for want of perpetuall visibility proued they themselues shall haue concluded to be false and faygned Thus expecting the yssue heerof and your Lordships further pleasure from the mouth of this bearer I remaine this first of Iuly 1623. Your Lordships seruant in Christ Iohn Fisher. By this Letter it may appeare how willing M. Fisher and M. Sweete were and yet are of their part to haue the matter soundly prosecuted eyther by meeting or wryting And I haue heard that the Earle to whome this letter was written did send to D. Featly so as although there be a prohibition of meeting yet it is expected that by way of writing D. Featly goe forward to performe his vndertaken Taske and setting downe first the Names of such as he iudgeth to haue been Protestant Professors in euery Age since Christ And then prouing out of good Authors those whome he nameth to haue byn members of the Protestant Church not condemning any one point wherin Protestants at this day do differ from the auncient and Roman Church and especially in any one of the 39. Articles which English Protestant Ministers are sworne vnto and therfore so long as D. Featly and D. White shall be silent and not so much as by writing giue a Catalogue of Names of the Professors of their Church all sorts of people may iustly take this their fayling for a flight and for a silent graunting that they haue not had visible Protestants in all Ages whose Names may be shewed out of good Authors as the question required Wherupon followeth that the Protestant Church is not the true Church of Christ nor the Preachers theroflawfully sent to teach nor people securely warranted to heare and learne of them what is and what is not to be belieued by Fayth necessary to saluation CHAP. III. Of the yssue of the Conference THe Protestant Relator sayth that the issue of the Conference was that the aforesaid M. Bugges came to Syr Humfrey Lynd gaue him many thākes for the sayd meeting and assured him he was well resolued now of his Religion that he saw plainly that it was but the Iesuits bragging without proofes and wheras formerly by their Sophisticall perswasions he was in some doubt of the Church he is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion that he doth vtterly disclaime the Popish Priests cōpany and their doctrine also I haue cause to doubt that this which the Relator sayth is not true for therby he maketh the old Gentleman to be but of a weake capacity or of a very mutable nature For first I am sure there was no cause giuen in the Conference of any such effectuall resolution to be made by the old Gentleman Secondly I cannot see when this speach should be made by the Gentlemā to Syr Humfrey If immediatly after the Conference it would argue toto much want of capacity for if he did but rightly conceiue the true state of the question in which himselfe had especially desired to be satisfied as I verily hope he did he might easily haue marked the insufficiency of D. Featly his diuerting proofes which also were so answered as the Audience for want of satisfaction in them vrged him to leaue off to produce Nàmes of Protestāts in all Ages the which producing of Names being so often and earnestly required to be done in all Ages and yet being only pretended and that most falsely to be done for one Age and the Cōference being so abruptly left of by D. Featly before he would go forward to name men in other Ages especially in Ages before Luther as the Question required any meane capacity might see that the Question in which the old Gentleman desired to be satisfied was not fully

out of good Authors And therfore as he had heard the Roman Catholiks made no difficulty to produce out of good Authors the Names of their Pastors people in all Ages so he much desired to heare whether the Names of Protestant Pastors and Preachers in all Ages could not also be produced out of good Authors for if they could he meant to remaine a Protestant as he had been all his life time but if they could not he thought it necessary to leaue the Protestants and to adhere to the Roman Church to learne of it Faith necessary to saluation By this appeareth that the sense and meaning of the Question could be no other then that which M Fisher explicated in the Conference viz. Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages so visible especially in the Ages before Luther as the Names of Protestant Pastors and Preachers in all Ages may be shewed out of good Authors And further that in case the Protestant Disputant should vndertake as he did tooto boldly vndertake the affirmatiue part saying and offering to proue in generall that the Names of such Pastors and Preachers of Protestāt Religion may be shewed in all Ages out of good Authors it should further be required as M. Fisher required of him that he should actually name in particular in euery seuerall Age such Pastors and Preachers as he thought he could proue and defend to be Protestants For if the Question had not been thus vnderstood it should not haue been answerable to the occasion and end aboue sayd Neyther could the Protestant Disputant sufficiently satisfie the doubt of the old Gentlemā being chiefly caused in that he had heard that no Protestant could name Pastors and Preachers of his profession in all Ages out of good Authors So as to satisfy this doubt it was not sufficient only to say nor only in generall to proue by such Syllogismes as D. Featly made which were such as the old Gentleman I dare say did not vnderstand that the Names of Protestants in all Ages may be shewed but as M. Fisher had shewed him a printed booke in which Roman Catholike Pastours and people were in particuler named in all Ages so he expected Protestant Pastours and people of all Ages to be named in particuler and after proued and defended to be Protestants as M. Fisher was ready to proue and defend whom he would in particuler name to be Roman Catholikes Furthermore although it may seeme to some not much materiall whether the Protestant Disputant hath begun to name first those of the first Age next of the second and so downward vntill Luther or cōtrary wise to beginne with Luther and so vpward till the Apostles and Christ yet both the words of the Question the doubt of the old Gentleman had byn far better satisfied and the Tergiuersation which D. Featly vsed in the first age auoyded if M. Fisher had vrged him as he might first to beginne with the Age immediatly before Luther a confessed Protestant and so go vpward vntill Christ the confessed Fountayne of infallible perpetuall vnchanged Truth for then it would haue been cleerly seene euen by the Confessiō of learned Protestants particularly Luther himselfe and others that those who eyther are named or can yet be named by D. Featly after he hath sought as I am told he went to seeke Records in the great Library in Oxford were not visible Protestants but of a different Profession Fayth and Religion and so different as that they cannot be iustly deemed members of one and the same Protestant Church with Luther after his Apostacy from his Religious Order and reuolt from the Roman Catholike Fayth For proofe wherof I for breuityes sake do refer euery one who desireth full satisfaction in this point to what is largely related and proued in the Protestants Apology in diuers places but particularly tract 2. cap. 2. sect 11. subdiuision 3. And will only content my selfe to cyte these few testimonyes for their sakes who haue not commodity to see that booke First therefore Luther himselfe sayth We dare boast that Christ was first published by vs. Wherefore the Latheran Conradus Schushelburg sayth It is impudency to say that many learned men in Germany and the like is of other Countreys before Luther did hould the doctrine of the Lutheran Ghospell And another of them not only sayth in effect thus much but proueth it by this argument If there had beene right beleeuers that went before Luther in his office there had beene no need of a Lutheran reformation Another sayth It is ridiculous to thinke that in the tyme before Luther any had the purity of doctrine and that Luther should receaue it from them not they from Luther considering sayth he it is manifest to the whole world that before Luthers tyme all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darkenes and that Luther was diuinely raysed vp to discouer the same to restore the light of true doctrine And least this may be thought to haue beene only the conceipt of Luther and Lutherans who yet could better tell then D. Featly D. White and such other new Maisters I will add heereunto what is sayd first by Caluin who doth acknowledge That in this Lutheran reformation there was made a discession or departure from all the world Secondly by Bucer who calleth Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine Thirdly by Beza a principall Caluinist who teacheth that at this tyme ordinary vocation of the Church-men was no where extant and consequently teacheth that ther was at that tyme no visible Church and so if any Church at all it was only inuisible as is affirmed euē by our owne English Protestant Deuines namely M. Iewel who sayth The truth was vnknown and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Vldericke Zuinglius first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Ghospel And M. Perkins who sayth We say that before the dayes of Luther for the space of many hundred yeares an vniuersall Apostacy ouerspread the whole face of the earth and that our Protestant Church was not visible to the World I might adde many more testimonyes of others who eyther in expresse tearmes or in effect affirme the Protestant Church to haue beene in many Ages before Luther latent and altogeather inuisible which indeed was the common opinion of Protestāts at their first vprysing who on the one side thought they could with shiftes bettter answere places of scripture which made often and honourable mention of the Church then they could answere the euidence of Histories and of their owne experience shewing that no visible Protestants were extant before themselues But now of late diuers plaine places of Scripture and Fathers hauing beene produced and such euident reasons deduced out of them prouing ineuitably that the true Church of Christ of which all sorts must learne infallible sayth necessary to saluation must needes be visible in all Ages as to omitt others

are these My spirit which is in thee and my wordes which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede nor out of the mouth of thy seedes seede from henceforth for euer Againe Their seed shall be knowne in Nations and their branches among people all that see them shall know them that these are the seed which our Lord hath blessed Againe Thy gates shal be opened continually day and night they shall not be shut that the strength of the Nations and their kinges may enter into thee for the nation and kingdome which shall not serue thee shall perish You are the light of the world a Citty built vpon a hill cannot be hid Tell the Church c. He that will not heare the Church let him be vnto thee as an heathen and Publican Going teach all Nations baptizing them c. Behould I am with you to wit your selues and successors teaching and baptizing all dayes vntill the end of the world Conformable to which Scriptures are also innumerable plaine places of ancient Fathers which may bee seene in Coccius and among others S. Augustine who saith that the Church being built vppon a moūtayne cannot be hid Out of these and other plaine places of of Scriptures Fathers euident Reasons also may be deduced shewing that the Church must needs bee visible in all ages As for example that otherwise it cannot bee such a Church as Christ did institute nor could it performe those offices which Christ appointed it to performe nor could those which were in it be instructed by it nor those which were out of it be cōuerted to it nor Heretiques pretending to be the Church cōvinced not to be it Wherfore out later Pro testants being not able to sayle any longer against this ineuitable Scylla without apparent daunger to split their boate would needes rather then turne back to the safe hauen of the visible Catholique Roman Church aduenture vpon the Charybdis of contemning all Monuments of ancient histories and the plaine experience of their primitiue Protestant Patriarches hoping to escape by landing vpon the imaginary Iland of inuisible recordes supposed to haue byn written and after suppressed in the pretended Popes persecution of the visible Members of their inuisible Church in the Ages before Luther a shift very vnsafe and such as if it were good might serue any other Sect of ancient or present Heretiques as well as our moderne Protestants if they would pretend to haue had a continuall visible Church of their profession But alas who seeth not that these be meere imaginary Chymaera's or dreames For if any such people had beene practizing especially rites of their religion though neuer so secretly they could not euen with a Giges ring haue passed vnseene but eyther with their positiue profession of their owne doctrine which in some cases obligeth all true beleeuers or at least with negatiue profession of fayth by which all faythfull men and at all tymes are obliged neuer to make shew and profession of a contrary religion they or some of them could not choose but to haue beene noted And if for that cause any persecution were in that age as is supposed infallibly they would haue beene taken as others of other Religions in like cases ordinarily are taken and imprisoned or otherwise so punished as the world could not haue beene ignorant of their persons nor Historyes set out by friendes or enemies silent in setting downe as vsually is done their names conditions opinions punishments and persecutions in such tyme such place c. And if such recordes of such conspicuous things had been set down in historyes it is not possible that the memory of such notorious matters could be razed both out of bookes and out of the mindes of men who without booke do continually deliuer in words to their successors what they saw with their eyes or heard with their eares of their predecessors or read in books to haue byn don to such persons as professed such a Religion or to haue beene done to such bookes in which mention was made of such persecution made against professors of that Religion To say therefore that such persons were and yet no record in any booke or other memory of them or that once such Recordes were but after were by the Pope razed or burned and yet no mention made in any booke or other monument that such razing or burning of bookes was by such a Pope at such a tyme c. as we can yet out of good Recordes tell the bookes burned by Dioclesian the Grande Persecutor of Christians To say I say this is senselesse and plainely sheweth that these men who sought to auoyd the Scylla of an inuisible Church by this shift fal into the Charybdis of speaking against sense and experience and indeed runne backe vpon the Scylla of the same inuisible Church for auoyding whereof they deuised this sandy shift of inuisible Persecutours inuisible Persecutions inuisible Recordes of nameles supposed to be visibly persecuted members of the Protestant Church in all Ages before Luther O misery O madnes of our poore deceaued Protestants What Is it possible that Luther and Lutherans Caluin and Caluinists yea our owne Countrey-men prime Protestants conuinced with the cleere euidency of things in their own dayes and with plaine Recordes of all ancient Monuments for former ages doe confesse as you heare euen now that Luther was the first that announced or published Christ that he was the first Apostle of the Reformed doctrine and this so certainely that they do account it impudency and ridiculous to say That there were other visible Protestants in Germany before Luther that they proue by argument this to be impossible that they acknowledge themselues in this Lutheran Reformation to haue departed from all the world that at Luthers and Caluins comming no ordinary vocatiō of Church-men without which the visible Church cannot be was extant in any place that the Church both then and for many hundred yeares before was wholly latent and inuisible Is it possible I say that all this should be cōfessed by the primitiue Parents and prime Doctours of Protestancy and that now their professed children schollers and in respect of them Punyes in Protestant diuinity dare be so bold as D. Featly was in the late conference to controlle and contradict those his grand Maisters in not only affirming but offering to proue by a Syllogisme and by a Demonstration à priori that the Protestant Church hath beene in all Ages visible and O wonder so visible as the names of the particular men may be shewed in all ages out of good Authors and further offering to second this Syllogisme by a full Induction in which he vndertooke actually to set downe their particuler names in euery seuerall age Surely the aforesayd Protestants if they had beene present would haue wondered to see such boldnes and would haue censured this attēpt to

true bookes of Scripture and Fathers which be true translations and which be right interpretations for both about Scriptures Fathers such Questions may arise and cannot be well decided whout the Iudgement of the true present visible Church in regard Scriptures and Fathers do not alwaies sufficiently expresse what is to be held in the aforesaid Questions neither will one priuate man in such cases follow anothers opinion when ech man will be easily inclined to thinke that he hath as good Scriptures or Fathers or Reasons or all these togeather to plead for the truth of his opinion as another hath for his This reason may be confirmed out of Tertullian who in his golden booke of Prescriptions giueth diuers reasons why Heretikes who reiect the authority of the Church should not be admitted to dispute out of Scriptures First for that by their disputations they weary those that be fame they ouercome those which be weake and those which be in a middle disposition they dism●sse with scruple or doubt Another reason Tertullian giueth because this Heresy doth not receaue some Scriptures or if a receaue it peruerteth them to their owne purpose with additions and detractions and if it receaue some yet not whole or if whole in some sort yet by false expositions it turneth them from the right to a peruerse sense And a peruerse or corrupt sense sayth he is as contrary to truth as is a peruerted or corrupted Text. Tertullian therefore for these reasons iudged best not to make the combat in Scriptures but that this gappe should be stopt and that Heretikes should not be admitted to any disputation of Scriptures and he telleth how this may be done saying It must be examined to whome the possession of Scripture doth belong to the intent that he who hath no right vnto them may not be admitted vnto them And further he sheweth That the right order of thinges requireth that first it only be disputed to whom the Fayth belongeth As if he should say which is the true visible Church VVhose are the Scriptures From whome by whome when and to whome was deliuered that discipliae by which they are made Christians for where there shall appeare the truth of Christian sayth and discipline to be as doubtles it is in the true visible Church of Christ there shal be truth of Scriptures and expositions and al Christian Traditions And hauing shewed how Christ did promulgate his doctrine by the Apostles he further prescribeth That what Christ and his Apostles did preach must be learned no otherwise then by the Churches which they founded so as euery doctrine agreeing with those Apostolicall Mother-Churches that is to be deemed true and what doth not agree to be iudged false And therefore to make it apparent that the Heretikes opinions although pretended by themselues to be cc̄formable to Scriptures and such as may be proued out of Scriptures are not Apostolicall nor true he vrgeth them as M. Fisher vrged D. Featly to shew the beginning of their Churches and to vnfould the order of their Bishops so from the beginning running downe by succession as that their first Bishop had some of the Apostles or some Apostolicall man who perseuered with the Apostles for his Author and Predecessour and hauing giuen examples of the Catholike Churches who can thus vnfould the order of their Pastours and namely Rome for one he sayth afterwardes Confingant tale quid Haeretici Let Heretiques euen feigne some such like thing Thus we see what Tertullian did say to Heretikes of his tyme by which we may learne what we may say to the Nouellists of our tyme whome offering to dispute with vs about Scriptures we may altogeather debarre from Scripture and may examine them as Tertullian did those of his tyme saying VVho are you VVhen and whence came you VVhat haue you to do in my ground you that are not myne By what right dost thou O Marcion we may say O Martin Luther cut down my woods By what licence dost thou O Valentine O Caluin diuert or turne aside my fountaynes By what power dost thou O Apelles O Anabaptist remoue my limits VVhy do you O the rest of Heretikes sow and feed according to your owne will vpon my Land and pasture It is my possession I am the ancient possessour I haue the firme Originalls from the Authors themselues to whome the propriety did first belong I am the heyre of the Apostles as they did ordaine in their Testament and last will as they did commit it to my faythfull Trust as they did adiure me so I hold it But you they haue disinherited and cast out as strangers and enemyes c. So as by this prescription of Tertullian vntill D. Featly or some other can by other markes then by alleadging wordes of Scripture as by perpetuall visibility and interrupted succession of Bishops c. proue Protestants not to be Heretikes but the true Church of Christ and the right heyre of the Apostles to whome cōsequently belongeth the most ancient first possession of Scriptures M. Fisher had good reason and right to deferre disputing with him out of Scripture of Christ and his Apostles vntill he had made his full Induction of Names of Protestant Church-men and vnfoulded the orders of their Prostant Bishops so running downe from the beginning by succession as that their first Protestant Bishop had some of the Apostles or some Apostolicall man who perseuered with the Apostles for his Author Predecessour The which I accompt to be so impossible for him to doe as I dare and do challenge him saying with Tertullian Confingant tale quid Haeretici Let D. Featly or any of his fellow Protestants at least feigne because I am sure they cannot find Names of Protestant Bishops and Pastors whome they do imagine for proue they cannot out of good Authors to haue beene in all ages Which whiles they do not al sorts of people haue iust cause to thinke that neither D. Featly nor D. VVhite can performe that taske which they did tooto boldly vndertake of naming prouing and defending visible Ptotestants in al ages therupon al men may as I do conclude That the Protestant Church hath not beene so visible in all ages as the Cathelike Church ought to be and consequently the Protestant Church is not the true Catholique Church which we prosesse to beleeue in our Creed Neither consequently are their I'astours and Doctours and Preachers lawfully sent or sufficiently authorized to teach and expound Gods word nor consequently are people securely warranted to learne of them what is and what is not to be belieued by infallible diuine fa●th necessary to saluation nor indeed ought they to beleeue or heare them at all but ought to vnite themselues to that One Holy Catholike Apostolike perpetually visible Roman Church hearing beleeuing obeying the Pastors thereof whereby they may haue infallible iustruction in all matters of fayth secure direction for all matters concerning good life in such sort as they may attaine remission of their sinnes and saluation of their soules the grace of God in this life and endles heauenly happines in the next Vnto which I beseech sweet Iesus to bring vs all Amen FINIS Eudaimon Iohannes in defens p. H. Garn. D. Bishop against Rob. Abbots A very weake and Insufficient satisfaction as is showed hereafter Eph. 4. Heb. 11. Rom. 10. v. 14 15. Eph. 4. 11. Ose. 2. v. 19 20. Isa. 59. 20. Matth. 18. 20. Eph. 4. v. 11. 〈…〉 M. Fisher. D. Field in his Epistle Dedicatone Aug. lib. de vnitate Ecclesiae a This great Lady did expresly say that the conferēce did make against Protestants euen as it was related by you Protestant relator And another Lady who was present at the conferēce did protest to one that asked her how it moued her that she was by it confirmed in Catholique religion Lib. 1. Inst. c. 1. Sect. 4. Eph. 4. v. 11. c. Rom. 10. v. 14. c. 1 Luth. ep ad Argentin anno 1525. 2 Conradus Schushelb in Theol. Calu. lib. 2. fol. 130. B. versus finé 3 Geo. Mylli in Augustanae Confessionis explie art 7. de Eccl. pag. 137. 4 Benedict Morgést trac de Eccl pag. 145. 5 Calu. in I. epist. ep 141. 6 Bucer ep ad Epis. Hereford 7 Beza in Theol. ep epi. 5. 8 Iewell in his Apolog. of the Church 4 c. diuis 2. in his defence 42. 9 Perkins in exposit of the Creed † See the booke intituled The Author and substance of Protestant religiō Isa. 59. v. 21. Isa. 61 9 Isa. 60 11 Matth. 5 14 Matth. 18 17 Matth. 28 19 20 Coccius in thesauro Cōtrouersiarum tomo 1. lib. 8. art 1. Aug. in psal 47. lib. de vnit Eccles. cap. 16. 25. Isa. 59. v. 21. 60. v. 11. 61. v. 9. 1. Tim. 3. v. 15. Ephes. 4. v. 4. 11. 12. 13. 14. Tertul. lib. de praescript Luc. 10. v. 16. Matth. 18. v. 17 Tertull. de praescrip c. 15. Cap. 19. Cap. 20. 21. 22 sequent Cap. 32.