some vvere burnt vvith fyre Nom. 11.1 some sunke into the earth aliue Nom. 16.32.33 some vvere destroyed of serpents Nom. 21.6 some by the enemyes svvord Nom. 14.45 some by the svvord of their own brethren Exod. 32 27. Euen Moses Aaron your first greatest yea principall pillars of greatest reckoning died in the desert for their sin And of sixe hundred thousand men that came out of Egipt to fight against us Exod. 12.37 onely two men are left aliue Nom. 26.64 65 c. What think you Sir Was this vvarre in any probability pleasing unto God if you say yea you haue ansvvered your demande your selfe and discovered your ovvne folly for thus you see a Pagan might haue pleaded against Israell Gods true Church then vvith as much collour and more truth then you that are called a Christian can doe against us novv and thus I thinke your first demande is sufficiently ansvvered But it may be sir you vvill not be thus satisfied vvithout your particulars be examined M. Bolton vvhich you say vvas the first founder of our separation hanged himself as did Iudas vvell Proue you as much for Boiton as I doe for Iudas As vve deny Bolton to haue been the first founder of our separation so sure I am that Iudas vvas one of the first and principallest publishers of the gospell of Christ for he vvas numbered vvith the Apostles being one of the tvvelue and had received fellovvship in their ministration Act. 1.17 And vvill you novv therefore call the Gospell and Christianity into question as whether it be of God or no because this Iudas hanged himselfe if no vvhat vvaight then is in your demand And novv I pray you sir consider also that this M. Boltō one of the Elders of that separated Church vvhere of M. Fits vvas pastor in the beginning of Queene Elizabeths raigne first revolted at Pauls Crosse falling back again to you and vvas reproved excommunicated for this by that separated Church and afterward not haveing grace to returne or repent hanged himselfe This being so M. Boltons martyrdom is little for the credit of your cause or Church whereof he dyed a member The second you say totally recanted c. And this you note to bee Browne And say I so did Demas 2. Tim. 4.10 vvhich sometime vvas a fellow-helper with Paul as vvell as Luke Col. 4.14 Phil. 2.4 As divers others in all ages haue done vvho loved this present vvorld more then God Can it not therefore stand vvith your liking Sir that the Gospell vvhich Christ or Paul preached can in any probability bee pleasing unto God because Iudas hanged himselfe and Demas totally recanted it I pray you Sir consider vvhat the Apostle saith What though some haue not beleeved or been unfaithfull shall their unfaithfulnesse make the faith of God without effect God forbid Rom. 3.3.4 And againe consider I pray you Christian religion vvas at a lovv ebb vvhen so many went back from Christ that hee said to the twelue will yee also leaue me Ioh. 6.66 yet you see still Christianity florisheth and wee to our exceeding great comfort do behold it And for us though many bad ones haue gon a way yet God bringeth better in their place dayly And thus I thinke your first Demande is directly and distinctly ansvvered as you desire Onely this I will further add concerning M. Browne that he hath so left it in practise as to shew the corruption of his heart yet so holdeth it in professed iudgement as shevvs the strength of the truth stil upholding it self in so evil a conscience who professeth in keeping his Ministry that he liveth of the spoiles of Babylon And for Master Boulton although you think you haue great advantage against us in his case some others who haue faln from us yet if things be rightly considered the contrary vvill appeare And as Abimelech king of Gerar vvhen he reproued Abraham for denying Sarah to be his vvife had more need to haue reproued himselfe for his want of the feare of God of cōmon humanity by vvhich pore Abraham was driven to that strayt so you in upbraiding us with these mens fals had more need reproue your selves your ovvn most unmercifull dealings towards us by which divers are forced to deny the truth as Abraham did his vvife against their consciences vvhereuppō followeth most fearefull dispayre sometimes such wofull events as this vpon Boltons Apostacie was so you are before the Lord made guilty both of the bloud of the bodies of the soules of those miserable men And whereas you haue a marginall note of one M. Nowel in Warwick-shire you are the first from whom I ever heard any thing of that man and therefore this is all that I can say If hee vvere not fully perswaded of the truth in that estate vvherein he stood but dyed vvith a troubled mind seeking the truth vvhat doth this make ether against us or for you I see nothing let vvise men judge c. 2 Demand Your second demand is as I vnderstand it Whether our profession religion and discipline as it standeth in opposition to your Parishassembles in England and the rest of the reformed Churches can be of God or haue any approbation from God seeing that it hath no vertue power and efficacy in it as the Gospel preached in your parishassemples through Gods blessings aboundantly hath to win convert and draw vnto our party and profession Atheists Papists Heretiks rude profane c. 2 Answer To this your demand I answere yea our profession religion and discipline as you call it may be of God and haue approbation frō God though not converting any such And if it be so of God as it be approved in his word it is enough though we haue not converted any at all and for proofe hereof as also for further ansvver to your demand consider this that follovveth Your demand is like as if a Cananite should thus haue demaunded of Noah Gen. 6. Can this thy Arke building be of God or haue any approbation from God seeing that in all this time there appeareth neither vertue povver nor efficacie to vvin convert and dravv vnto thy party any at all for thou canst hardly shevv any one person converted vnto thee by thy preaching or Arke building these hundered and tvventy yeers vvhat thinke you Sir could Noah his Arke building be of God or haue any c Also I pray you Sir consider vvith your selfe vvhat ansvver you vvould haue made if any of your Morris-dancing papists or prophane Atheists vvith whom you but lately vvere much cumbered should haue demanded the lyke of you Your administration and ministeriall office had so little vertue povver and efficacy in it among them that you were glad to leaue them vnconverted come away from them and it may be they deemed your ministry not to be of God nor to haue any approbation from God and you your selfe also peradventure thinking the same thing and seeing also
AN ANSVVER TO THE TEN COVNTER DEMANDS PROPOVNDED BY T. DRAKES Preacher of the Word at H. and D. in the County of ESSEX By Wil. Euring PROV 9.12 If thou be wise thou shalt be wise for thy selfe and if thou be a scorner thou alone shalt suffer Printed in the yeare 1619. To the Reader IT is the manner of some quarrelsome persons that being beaten by one aduersarie too strong for them they are not quiet in their mindes till they haue got another with whom they hope to deale well enough and to beate the former upon his back wrecking upon him all that anger which they haue harboured in their heart against the other but could not utter as they desired So it seemes to be with this man who having had of late as it is reported much combating with the Morris-dauncing-Papists and Athiests in his parish whereof lately hee was Minister And finding them too hard for him and that insteed of being sheep to follow him they came with open mouth like wolues both against the sheep and Shepheard he hath thought it best seeing these wolues thus comming to saue himselfe by flying to an other place leaving the pore sheepe in the same fould with the wolues to shift for themselues as they could But not resting so hee hath bethought him of an other sort of adversaries with whom he hopes more easily to deale and these are the poore Separatists against whom he hath also those Morris-dauncers and many greater then they to take his part Them he encountreth stoutly with Ten Counter-Demands as he cals them with which as with so many yron hornes he hopes so to shake the silly Separatists as not to leaue them a whole bone in their skin But why doth he call them Counter-Demands Not because he hath answered but onely seen as I heare 7 Demands of theirs some good space since propounded by thē These he should rather haue answered in my judgment if he could for the defence of his Church Communion Government Ministerie and Worshippe But it seemes he had rather aske then answer questions as what bungler cannot better strike then fence and so his meaning is to set these his Ten Counter-demands against their Seaven Demands that so they might knock heads together to see whose is hardest Since then it must be so I will first set downe those Seaven and after answer his Ten simply without all doubt yet as well as I can but plainly and distinctly as he desireth Intreating thee good Reader to beare with my vnschollership for I haue not been brought up among the Muses but Mariners and am unwillingly though particularly drawn hereunto by his importunity Quest 1 Whether the Lord Iesus Christ haue in his last will Testament given unto and set in his Church sufficient ordinary Offices with their callings workes and maintenance for the administration of his holy things and for the ordinary instruction guidance and service of his Church to the end of the world or no 2. Whether the Offices of Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Helpers be those offices appointed in the Testament of Christ or whether the present ecclesiasticall offices of Arch-Bishops Lord-Bishops Suffragans Deanes Priests Vicars Arch-Deacons Prebendaries Canons Gospellers Petty-Canons Epistlers Virgerers Queristers Organ-Players Parsons Curates Chancelors Commissaries Proctors Registers Appariters or Sumners Churchwardens Doctors of Divinity Questmen or Side-men Deacons or halfe Priests Chaplins or house-Priests Clarkes Sextons and the rest now had and retained in the Cathedrall and Parishionall Assemblies of the Land be those Offices appointed in Christs last will and testament or no 3 Whether the calling and entrance into the ecclesiasticall offices last before named with their administrations and maintenance now had and retained in England be the manner of calling administration and maintenance which Christ hath appoynted for the offices of his Church or no 4 Whether every true Church of Christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world and false worship and waies thereof by the word of God and ioyned together in the fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ 5 Whether the sacraments being seales of the righteousnes which is by faith may be administred vnto any other but to the faithfull and their seed or in any other ministery or manner then is prescribed and appointed by Iesus Christ the Apostle and high preist of our profession And whether they be not otherwise administred in the parish assemblies of England at this day or no 6 Whether the booke of Common prayer with the feasts fasts stinted prayers holly dayes and leiturgy prescribed therein vsed in the assemblies bee the true worship of God commanded in his word or the devise and invention of man for Gods worship and service 7 Whether all people and Churches without exception be not bound in religion onely to receiue and submit vnto that Ministry worship and order which Christ as Lord and King hath given vnto and appoynted in his Church or whether any may receiue and ioyne vnto another devised by man for the worship and service of God and consequently whether they that ioyne to the present Ecclesiasticall ministry worship and order of the Cathedrall and Parishionall Assemblies can be assured by the word of God that they ioyne to the former or dayned by Christ and not to the latter devised by man for the worship and service of God AN ANSWERE TO TEN Counter-Demands Propounded by T. DRAKES Preacher of the Word at H. and D. in the County of ESSEX REverend sir you haue given vs heer a Counter blow and as it is reported you yet thinke to giue vs if not a greater yet another Blow but you earnestly desired to haue these your Ten Counterblowes directly and distinctly ansvvered vvhich I vvill labour to do God assisting mee Demand 1. Your first Demande is Whether our seperation from your Church or Church-assembles of England can in any probability be pleasing vnto God seeing it hath had say you such vnhappy beginnings and so many dismall and fatall events the first founder of it comming to Iudas his shamefull and fearfull end hanging him selfe and the second you say totally recanting and comming againe to you as divers of our proselites doe daily c. Answere This is the sume or ground of your first Demande other vvords there are here and there dropt from your pen vvhich giue no strength at all to your demand therefore I passe them by and ansvver yea Though this be true that you haue saide yet may our separation from your Church or parish-assēblies of England be pleasing vnto God and for proof hereof consider vvhat follovveth This your demand is like as if a Cananite or Philistim should thus haue demaunded of the Israelites Whether is it like that the wars you hould against vs can in any probability be pleasing unto God seeing that they haue had such vnhappy successe vvith so many dismal fatall events
not only the name and title as it is vsually called besides your own grant but the cōstitutiō also sheweth for it hath a pastor over the whole nation the Archbishop of Canterbury Metropolitan and Primate over all England your most reverend father in God who maketh consecrateth the Diocesian Bishops whereupon ariseth Diocesian Churches or Sees and they againe make your Parish Priests to the Archbishops and to his successours the inferiour Bishops haue sworne So help them God in Iesus Christ all due reverence and obedience This your book of consecration sheweth and we desire you to shew vs warrant for those things in the Scripture if you can or else shew vs where you haue learned them In your 8 Demand you say thus The name calling and office of these Bishops for either you must meane these Bishops or the like or else you speake nothing to the matter in hand Whether say you wee respect ordination of ministers or power of jurisdiction is the same for substance expressed in the New testament And this you say hath been and will be proved seeing it hath had a continuall succession from the Apostles time vnto this day c. If you were as redy to proove as you are to affirme things then were your valour something worth But you and the rest are so loth to be drawne to prooue yow ministry and ordination by the word of God that if you cannot make vs take your word for the lawfullnes therof then you will try by all means possible how you can get vs into some prison and keep vs there vntill you haue founde your proofe out of some other darke corner for by the light of Gods worde wee thinke you will never be able to proue the lawfullnes thereof These things that you say have indeed been often by others affirmed but never otherwise proved then by you at this present But if you good sir would now take the payns to proue what you haue saide by the word of God your paines would deserue thanks of many And withall let me intreat you sir I pray you because you say it hath had a continuall succession from the Apostles time vnto this daye to shewe me for my learning which of the Apostles was the Arch Apostle or Archbishop If you please so to call him ouer or before all the rest and from whom or by what authority he had that high place and Lordly office And also where and with whom he left that his Arch-Metropolitane authoritie to lord it over the rest as these do at this day as you say I professe vnfainedly that if I could see these things proved by the word of God I would soon through Gods mercy change my minde But in the meane time to let passe the rest of that frothie stuffe which might be raked together in these your 7 and 8 Demands I will come again to your 7 demand though I could from the 16.17.18 and 19. lines in your 8 Demand light you such a candle as I think you would be loath that any should see the light thereof but I will not blow at that cole now yet you against your will I am sure haue made a fayre beginning to kindle it where you say thus The Pope was not Antichrist before he had gotten the title of vniversall Bishop nor compleat vntill he had gotten into his bands both swords that is both Civill and Ecclesiasticall Dominion if I should now add but a little of your owne fuell to that coale these your words would discover a great part of the mistery of iniquity which growes in your ministry at this day But to let that passe nothing doubting but God in his good time by the brightnes of the Gospel wil cause the same to appear more and more dayly I will come to your 7 Demand where you tell vs of the Gospell soundly and substantially taught and professed and the sacraments so rightly administred and received in your Church as for proportion no country in the world you say nor Nationall Church whatsoever can affoord the like c The like vaine boast of all the grounds of Christian religion soundly held and professed c. I met with in your third Demand but neither there nor heare you speake any word of the practise Christian religion and of the kingly power and office of Christ governing your Church of these things you say nothing nothing how Christ ought to reigne as King in his Church by his owne Lawes and ordinances executed and administred in and by his owne offices and officers which he hath given unto and appointed in his Church forthat worke Ephe. 4.11.12.13 Rom. 12.6.7.8.9 Not a word of this I pray you Sir let not this candle be light howsoever you do you may make your people think that Christ will be a Prophet to teach them and a Priest to sacrifice for them though he be not a King to rule and reigne over them in and by his owne Lawes and officers they peradventure know not or dare not tell you that this is a denying of apart of the mediatorship of Christ therefore Sir as long as you can let them not know the kingly office of Christ nor what the Holy Ghost saith in Luk. 19.27 let them know no other government for the Church but your spitituall courts it wil serue their turne well enough untill the Lord shall moue their harts better to consider and discern the truth of his will reveiled in his word which in his good time he will do unto all those that earnestly desire and with upright harts seeke and labour to worship and serue him in spirit and in truth And now I will labour to shew the deceit of your vainglory in boasting of the word and sacraments which you say are so soundly taught and administred c. You would haue us and all men take it for granted that the nation of England is the true visible Church of Christ which you are not able to proue then you go on telling us of the sound and substantiall things in this your Church but we would first intreat you to shew us your Church constituted and builded according to the scripture if your Church be as you would make us beleue then shew it that we may see and discerne whether it be soundly and substantially built of choyse trees and of pretious living stones to the best of mans discerning hewed and squared and fastned together according to the heavenly patterne every stone living elect and pretious I say still in the best of mans discerning every stone hauing his beauty his burden and order all of them laboring to support one another to edifie one another to exhort to admonish and reproue one another that so they may be the habitation of God as these scriptures do shew Exo. 19.5.6 and chap. 25.8.9 40. 1. Chro. 29.2 Zach. 14.21 compared with Heb. 8.1.2.5.6 c. Chap. 9.11.14.1 Pet. 2.4.5.7.8.9 Act. 2.37.41.42 Rev. 1.5.6 Heb. 3.13 Chap. 10.24.15 Lev. 19.17