1. Because ye found the spirits of the people of this Kingdom that professe or pretend to the power of godlinesse ready to take any impressions and to be cast in any mould that hath but the appearance of a stricter way 2. Because that the mists gathered about you begun to scatter 3. Because ye published not your opinions by Preaching although ye had the Pulpits free nor in Print although the Presses were more free then the Pulpits Answ Your Partie will deny the Assumption for if ye and the rest of your Partie made it not up how is it made up in this Kingdom As for the proof of your Provocations We have answered already to the first The third and fourth we allow it not if any man hath done so To the second we shall answer hereafter And as for the fifth good Sheepherds could not without an abominable prevarication but write against yours and all other mens Innovations when they saw so many Sects multiplied and Woolfs creeping in so fast into Christs Sheep-fold to devour the flock 2. If ye blame our faithfull Ministers for maintaining the Truth already received what shall we say of your folks who have first published Books against the Truth 3. What shall we say of those of your Colleagues who heretofore preached your Tenets with great offence here in publike And who still run busily up and down to make Proselytes To the second proof your Assumption 1. We have already answered that it is made but how we know not 2. What were those people that professe and pretend to any power of godlinesse so ready to take any impression and to make a Partie ye tell not We wish to know whether they be Brownists Anabaptists or of what other Sect 3. Your Covenant obligeth you to declare it unto the Parliament however ye reveal it not unto us 4. Certainly true Professors of godlinesse are not so susceptible of any impressions much lesse to become factious 5. And therefore ye adde well or pretend for such men pretend onely to godlinesse but have renounced in effect the power thereof Here we see howsoever ye pretend not to be States-men yet ye know as much of it as the Presbyterians Your second occasion was the dissipations of mists c. If so and onely so then what needed this Apologeticall Narration § 25. Pag. 25. To the third occasion whether ye had the Pulpits so free or feared to have them lesse free afterwards I dispute not ye know that well enough Onely this I know That some of your Brethren having given themselves libertie to speak somewhat freely in favour of your opinions were afterwards discountenanced and became more prudent and circumspect in venting of themselves If ye printed not your opinions it may be ye deal more prudently in teaching them in private then in publishing them in Print And here ye shew how your Charitie is grown cold for in the beginning when so many mists were gathered about you for fear of Schisme out of meet Charitie ye abstained from writing and now when they are scattered ye write Your third Grievance is the reproach of that proud and insolent title of Independency Answ Ye decline that proud Title but will no wayes quit the thing signified by the Title in that ye maintain the Independency of every one of your Churches from all Ecclesiasticall Authoritie or Authoritative Power of any Ecclesiasticall Assembly yea some of your Profession say That it belongs not to the Magistrate to punish any man for his Religion be it never so odious and wicked as we have heard from their own mouths So that there is another new Independency If it be replied here That I did prove before that ye acknowledge some Ecclesiasticall Authoritie whereunto your particular Churches are subject I answer It is but by necessary consequence that they must hold it and not interminis or expresly that they beleeve it for they deny interminis what they must grant by consequence It is drawn out of the evasions that they bring against our Reasons whereby whilest they seek to escape they are catcht Pag. 4. Your fourth Grievance whereof ye complain and bewall your selves is Brownisme together with all their Opinions wherewith ye are traduced Answ But ye disclaim not Brownisme and their Opinions absolutely but with a restriction and secundum quid viz. As they have stated and maintained them 2. By another limitation viz. That ye differ much from them not in re sed in modo rei It may be ye hold and maintain the same opinions but not the same way And yet ye sympathize very much with them in puining untoward names upon us but not upon them There also ye declare what ye confesse and beleeve viz. The trueth to lye in a middle way betwixt Brownisme and the Authoritative Presbyteriall Government Answ But this is nothing but your errour Veritie consisteth not in the middle of this or that which ye imagine but in a conformitie of our conceptions with their object and due measure which in this matter is onely Gods Word revealed in the holy Scriptures and according to this rule I take Presbyterian Government rather to be the middle betwixt Popish Tyranny and Independent Anarchy § 25. Pag. 25. Your fifth Grievance is Some incitements to this State not to allow us say ye the peaceable practises of our Consciences which the Reformed Churches abroad allowed us Answ If any man incited the State not to allow you a peaceable practise of your new Religion they did according to their conscience as your new-New-England men do with those of our Religion and as some say that some of you five would do with us Their Reasons might have been these 1. Because it cannot but open a door to all sorts of erroneous Opinions 2. It is dangerous for the State it may breed factions and divisions betwixt all persons of whatsoever relation betwixt the Magistrate and the Subject the Husband and the Wife the Father and the Son Brethren Sisters the Master and the Servant when the one is of one Religion or Ecclesiasticall Government and the other of another as ye have experimented The Son may refuse to receive any communion with the Father and the Brother with the Brother and so dissolve all naturall civill and domesticall bands of Societie 3. No State in Christendome where there is one onely Religion established will admit the publike exercise of any other or endure a Schisme in that which is already received Wherefore then should it be done here 4. If it be granted to our Brethren I cannot see how it can well be denyed to other Sects If it be said That other Sects differ more from us then they do it is all one Magis minus non mutant Speciem in matter of Toleration for then all must be tolerated howsoever some more some lesse And some of our Brethren grant all the Argument And if we distinguish so ye must declare and expound cleerly what Sects and
SOME OBSERVATIONS AND ANNOTATIONS Upon the Apologeticall Narration Humbly submitted to the Honourable HOUSES of PARLIAMENT The most Reverend and Learned DIVINES OF THE ASSEMBLY And all the Protestant Churches here in this Island and abroad LONDON Printed for Christopher Meredith and are to be sold in Pauls Church-yard at the sign of the Crane 1643. TO The Right Reverend and Learned DIVINES THE AUTHORS OF THE Apologeticall Narration Right Reverend and dear Brethren THE high esteem I have ever had of your Persons and the great holinesse of your lives desiring ever to be such my self as I esteem you to be except onely in your particular opinions wherein ye dissent from all Protestant yea all Christian Churches in this World had almost hindered me from the publishing of these Considerations upon your Apologeticall Narration esteeming That it was not for any particular man such as I am to oppose himself to such a number of grave Divines of so great learning and so apparent Pietie But on the other part considering that you as my self are but men subject to humane frailtie that ye know but in part and consequently may erre in part I thought that this which is in question betwixt you and all the Churches in the Christian World might be a part of your aberration in part and of that which we know in part And upon this consideration esteemed it no lesse a part of my dutie and Christian libertie as a man to oppose my self to five men then for five men to oppose themselves to the common opinion of five hundred thousand to so many learned so many holy Divines hundreds and thousands for one of you no wayes inferiour to the learnedst and best amongst you And not onely to particular men and Divines but to so many yea and those the most pure and most Reformed Churches of the World amongst whom there have been found so many thousands who have sealed Christs Truth with the losse of their goods imprisonment of their bodies by the exile of their Persons yea with their dearest blood and lievs who if they wrought not miracles at the least God declared his Almighty Power in working miracles about them and upholding them Men of so great worth that the world was not worthy of them And howsoever these Motives be great yet wrought they not so much upon me as this That I am perswaded in my conscience that your opinion of Independency c. if it were admitted pardon my expression till I be better instructed by you or some others could not but prove the root of all sort of Schisme and Heresie and consequently the utter overthrow of Christs Universall Militant Church here upon Earth Besides all these considerations I had many more and amongst the rest your hard expressions against them that love and pity you your apparent resolution in desiring a Toleration of your Religion and consequently of a Separation from our Churches which howsoever they have power to hinder you yet condescend to be suppliants to you that you will entertain union and communion with them I may adde to all these your undervaluing of the Parliaments great Favours towards you for ye know Brethren how they notwithstanding all this and your former Separation from all other Christian Churches having taken to heart your hard usage in those evill times ye speak of howsoever in respect of your number ye be very few yea hardly the hundreth part yea not so much as one part of the Divines of this Kingdom in respect of your Separation invited you most lovingly to be Members of this present Assembly of the most learned holy and reverend Divines of both Kingdoms whereof had not they given you the capacity ye had been altogether incapable And not onely that but also having resolved to send two Divines from hence with their Commissioners to Scotland they honoured one of you with this high favour the greatest they could confer upon you at that time and so in effect did honour you with the half of the honour which belonged to all the Divines of the Kingdom And yet notwithstanding all these great testifications of so great and tender affections towards you ye five men five Members of the Assembly by whose Counsell and Instigation or upon what Motives we know not joyned your selves in a particular Combination without the knowledge of either Parliament or Assembly to draw up and publish unto the World an Apologeticall Narration as ye terme it containing in effect howsoever ye name it a singular desire of Separation from them that so cherish you with some unworthy Nick-names ye put upon them who stile you by no worse names then Brethren By such proceedings what else have ye done but erected an Assembly in the Assembly a particular Assembly in a publike Assembly by private Authority against publike Authority taking private Resolutions against all publike Resolutions whatsoever might be concluded either in Parliament or Assembly and in one word an Assembly to overthrow the Assembly These reasons joyned together with sundry others made me to think more then I say and to suspect that ye would say more then ye say And therefore laying all particular affections aside I resolved my self to publish these following Considerations and Annotations upon this your Apologeticall Narration which truely I do not out of any spleen against you God knows it for never one of you ever offended me yea I may say that I love you all from my heart and that in writing of this my soul is as it were rent in two parts my understanding carrying it one way and my will another Christs verity forcing the one and your singular piety alluring the other But I must conclude That it is better to follow God then man what ever he be or may appear to be and that the will that is but a blinde facultie must let it self be led by the light of the understanding which is the eye of the soul And as I write not out of spleen so may I attest him who seeth all things that I do it not to gain any mans affection or favour much lesse in hope of any other worldly ends and that if I did it to gain any mans love or friendship I am as much desirous of yours as any others No such ends moved me But if I have any knowledge of my self at this present at the writing of this Answer which yet I know is not such as it should be I may say That my main aym has been Gods glory and the edification of weak Brethren who may have been misled by your most learned Discourse esteeming that during the rest of my Pilgrimage which cannot be long having no other thing to do I shall do well to do this and so improve my Talent to his glory the Edification of his Church and the Salvation of my own Soul and so I remain Your very loving Brother in Christ A. S. Some Generall CONSIDERATIONS Upon the Apologeticall Narration I. WHether in any
Ecclesiasticall or Politicall Assembly of the Christian World wherein things are carried by plurality of voices it be ordinary for any inconsiderable number thereof to joyn in a particular combination among themselves and therein to take particular resolutions to publish them unto the world and so to anticipate upon the resolutions of the whole Assembly II. Whether in taking such resolutions they should not consequently resolve themselves to quit the Assembly and to appear as Parties And if any man or men should do so either in this Parliament or this Assembly if a connivence at such a matter should not be reputed for an act of great favour love and extraordinary tender affection towards them III. Whether such an inconsiderable member in so doing may not be refused by the parties as incompetent Judges IIII. Whether this Apologeticall Narration was necessary when ye found the calumnies mistakes misapprehensions of your opinions and mists that had gathered about you or were rather cast upon your persons in your absence begin by your presence again and the blessing of God upon you to scatter and vanish without speaking a word for your selves or cause And if the honour the Parliament shewed you in calling you to be Members of the Assembly was not sufficient enough to justifie your persons from all sort of aspersions and calumnies without any Apology Whether after the dissipation of such Clouds and such a justification this Apology was rather necessary then before when ye were under the cloud and not justified V. Whether this your Apologeticall Narration wherein ye blame all Protestant Churshes as not having the power of godlinesse and the profession thereof with difference from carnall and formall Christians advanced and held forth among them as among you be seasonable when the Church of God and this Kingdom stand in need of their Brotherly Assistance and particularly of that of the Scots against whom it is commonly thought to be particularly intended who at this very time so unseasonable according to their duty hazard their Lives and Estates for Gods Church all this Kingdom and you also VI. Whether as it is observed by sundry men of learning and as ye have noted your selves ye should not have done better to have sit down your opinions by way of Theses and so manifested unto us wherein ye agree or disagree with us or from us the Brownists Anabaptists and these whom ye pretend to hold the same Tenets with you in old and new England and the Netherlands then in a Rhetoricall and Oratorius way endeavour in the most part of your Book to publish your great Sufferings and extraordinary Piety and so to move us all to compassion and ravish us into admiration as if ye meant rather to perswade then to prove them VII Many also are very desirous to know whether this Apologeticall Narration published by you five alone be published in the name of you five alone or of all those also or apart of those whom ye pretend to hold your Tenets to the end we may know in what esteem to have it And if in the name of you five onely the Penners and Contrivers thereof Whether ye five can arrogate a power unto your selves to maintain these Tenets as the constant opinion of all your Churches having no generall Confession of their Faith thereabout If in the name of all the rest we desire ye would shew your Commission from all your Churches by what authoritie ye do it Or if ye do it without Commission and Authoritie from them if that be not to assume unto your selves a greater Authoritative power then that ye call Presbyteriall yea then ever was the Episcopall VIII It were also not amisse ye should declare Whether ye desire a Toleration for you five alone in your Religion or for all the rest Item If a Toleration in publike in erecting of Churches apart or to live quietly without troubling of the State as for the last appearingly ye may have it unsought but for the rest the Parliament is wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church of God and the State IX And because your whole draught of this Book tends evermore unto a Toleration and consequently unto some Separation I would willingly know of you What things are to be tolerated or not tolerated in Religion not in private persons but in Conseciations And particularly when the whole Kingdom is joyned in one Religion What sort of new Consociations of divers Religions it may in good conscience tolerate and receive into it Item Vpon what ground Churches may in good conscience make Separation from other Churches that desire Vnion and Communion with them Whether they that aym at a Toleration and Separation be not rather bound to tolerate some small pretended defects not approved by those from whom they desire to separate themselves and especially when they that are so desirous of Separation are not pressed to be Actors in any thing against their conscience then to separate themselves from a Church that testifies a great desire to reforme the defects pretended to be in it Whether it were not better for them that aym at Toleration and Separation to stay in the Church and to joyn all their endeavours with their Brethren to reforme abuses then by Separation to let the Church of God perish in abuses Whether they do not better that stay in the Church to reforme it when it may be reformed then who quit it for fear to be deformed in it ANNOTATIONS Upon the INSCRIPTION Of this BOOK An Apologeticall Narration ALL Apologies presuppose some Accusation which here appears none or if it be intended as an Apologeticall answer to what hath been written against your Opinions it comes very short weak and slender and no way satisfactory to their Arguments Neither is it a meer Apologeticall Narration but also a grievous Accusation against all our Churches as destitute of the power of godlinesse c. So it is a mistake in the very Title of the Book which is either untrue or inadoequate to the subject whereof it treateth Humbly submitted So humbly submitted to the honourable Houses of Parliament as if they submit not themselves to your desires in granting you a Toleration for any thing I can see ye seem no wayes minded to submit your selves to theirs It seems also very probable That being Divines ye should rather first have consulted with the Assembly of Divines your Brethren then so ex abrupto gone to the Civill Magistrate that arrogates not to himself any directive power in matters of Religion This should have testified more Brotherly and Christian Charitie then here it does of politicall humilitie And it is more convenient to the spirit and power of godlinesse that the spirit of Prophets in such matters should be subject unto Prophets then unto the spirit of the Civill Magistrate who for this effect hath convocate an Assembly of Prophets and would not undertake it himself So this is a submission That this most just
Here ye mistake for we can produce you sundry others of good note here Printed at London we are sorry ye have not seen them or disdained to read them If there were not many written before those it was in pittie of your afflictions whereunto good Divines would not adde new affliction Neither thought they your Partie so considerable Neither were your Opinions much known or published abroad being onely written in English and not in Latine except by one or two of your Divines for any thing I know Neither thought they that ye were so averse from their Discipline as ye appear in this Assembly but that ye suffered only for not conforming your selves unto Episcopall Government But whatever they have written I know not what this can serve to the purpose unlesse it be to declare That whatsoever helps ye had heretofore yet ye were destitute of those writings whereby ye might have received farther light concerning Presbyteriall Government and I pray God ye make good use of them In the 16. § at the end of the 16. Pag. Ye travell to remove an Objection viz. That in Congregationall Government such as is amongst you there is no allowed sufficient remedy for miscarriages though never so grosse no relief for wrongfull Sentences or Persons injured thereby no room for Complaints No Powerfull or Effectuall means to reduce a Church or Churches that fall into Heresie or Schisme c. To avoid this Objection ye relate us an History § 17. and what ye did upon such an emergent case But ye shew us no Law that ever ye had amongst you whereby ye might bring any remedie against such a miscarriage before that it fell out 2. Neither read we of any such Law or remedie in your Books before this 3. Your Divines and the Members of your Churches with whom we conversed shewed no remedie amongst you for such inconveniencies 4. They gave us no answer unto this Objection save onely this That God hath ordained no remedies in such Cases Yea that if Churches should fall away from Christ and with the Jews call him an Impostor and the Trinitie with Servet a three headed Cat and deny the Incarnation of the Son of God they should be tolerated Yea more That the Civill Magistrate should punish no man for his Religion be it never so bad or blasphemous and that it must be left to God And this giveth us reason to think That these Reasons within these two yeers have made you to refine your Opinion and to mould some new Solutions and to suite your Opinions more close to the current of the time then you were wont to do If therefore we speak after them it is their fault and not ours it may be that your Opinion be not common to you all but to you five alone The sum of the History is A Minister was suddenly deposed by his Flock whereupon some Churches did take offence and all their Churches consented in this Principle That Churches 1 Cor. 10.32 1 Tim. 5.22 as well as particular men are bound to give no offence neither to Jew nor Gentile nor the Churches of God they live among Item That in vertue of the same or like Law of not partaking in other mens sins the Churches offended may and ought upon the Impenitency of those Churches persisting in their errour and miscarriage to pronounce that heavy sentence against them of withdrawing and renouncing all Christian Communion with them untill they do repent And further to declare and protest this with the causes thereof to all Christian Churches of Christ that they may do the like In this Narration it appeareth 1. That this Church offending before this emergent Case knew not so much for if she had it is not credible that she would against all charitie and the common order of all Churches have committed so great a scandall 2. This remedie is not sufficient nor satisfactory 1. Because all Churches according to your Tenets be equall in Authoritie Independent one of another and par in parcm non habet Imperium none hath power or Authoritie over his equall how then could any Church binde another to any such account but out of its freewill as a partie may do to its partie 3. Because since other Churches were or pretended to be offended in such a proceeding they could not judge in it for then they should have been both judge and partie in one cause which cannot be granted to those that have no Authoritative Power one over another as when a private man offendeth the State and we our God 4. What if many Churches yea all the Churches should offend one should that one Church gather all the rest together judge them all and in case of not submitting themselves to her judgement separate her self from them all If so we should have Separations and Schismes enough which should be continued to all Posteritie to come 5. What if Churches were so remote one from another that they could not easily meet together upon every occasion Then there should be no remedy or at least no easie remedy 6. What if the Offence were small should so many Churches for every trifle gather together and put themselves to so great cost and trouble 7. What if the Churches in their Judgements should differ one from another in such a case should they all by Schismes separate themselves one from another 8. This sort of Government giveth no more Power or Authoritie to a thousand Churches over one then to a Tincker yea to the Hangman over a thousand for he may desire them all out of charitie to give an account of their Judgement in case he be offended by them Neither see I what more our Brethren grant to all the Churches of the World over one But the Presbyteriall Government is subject to none of these inconveniencies for the collective or combined Eldership having an authoritative Power all men and Churches thereof are bound by Law and Covenant to submit themselves thereunto Every man knoweth their set times of meeting wherein sundry matters are dispatched and all things carried by pluralitie of voices without any Schisme or Separation 9. This Government is a Power wherein the Partie is judged if he will and so the judgement of the Judges suspended upon the judgement of the Partie judged which is most ridiculous without any example in Ecclesiasticall or Civill Judicatories a judgement indeed not very unlike to that which is related of a merry man who said he had the best and most obedient wife of the whole World because saith he she willeth nothing but what I will and as all men wondred at it knowing her to be the most disobedient yea saith he but I must first will what she willeth else she willeth nothing that I will 10. This sort of Government is unjust and unreasonable for not onely the Partie judgeth its Partie but also it inflicteth the same punishment viz. Separation upon all offending Churches what ever be the offence great or small
State as some Independenters and some Women here in London have maintained in presence of their Preacher uncontradicted by him or any of that Profession there I answer 1. Because the Church or Kingdom of Heaven is not a Kingdom of this Word 2. Because God forbideth the one in Scripture but not the other 12. Christs Kingdom viz. His Church which is not of this World should be subject to the Kings and Kingdoms of this World 13. Yea the Apostles should have been subject unto worldly Kings in Church Government and so they should not have been the first Officers in the Church but the King should have been above them which is no lesse then cleerly to contradict Saint Paul Ephâ—s 4. where he calleth them the first 14 So wo Idly Princes could not be judged by any Church-Officers for if they were supreme Judges inferiour Officers could not judge them 15. A King usurping or invading a Kingdom should usurpe Soveraigntie in the Church And 16. if he were a Tyrant and obtained it jure belli by the Sword he should make himself Head of the Church by the Sword which seemeth a very strange Conquest of Ecclesiasticall Authoritie 17. If a Prince should buy a Principalitie and the Soveraigntie thereof he should consequently buy the charge to be supreme Ruler or to be above the Church as ye call it so it should be a good Conquest by good Simony 18. So if a wicked Prince should invade a good Prince against Gods Will then he should be Head of Christs Church or supreme Judge over it against Christs Will and that by an ordinary way yea jure divino by Christs Ordinance if jure divino they be above the Church as ye say 19. If a Prince were perpetually mad his perpetuall madnesse should no more hinder him from being supreme Judge in the Church then Prince in the State 20. If a Prince were supreme Judge alone then should he alone judge yea without his Counsell as some Princes do arrogate unto themselves and there should be the same Disputes about the Princes supreme Authoritie in the Church that are about it in the State 21. God will have no man to be a Judge in his Church but after examination 1 Tim. 3. muchlesse a supreme Judge in it But Kings are not examined whether they have the capacitie to rule or not and if the Prince be a little childe how can he have the capacitie or abide an examination 22. If a King have any other or more intrinsecall Authoritie over the Church then all Protestant Churches in France Holland and Scotland grant him or then we have declared we pray you shew us what it is and wherein it consisteth Whether he hath it in qualitie of a King of a Christian or of a Christian King If he hath it in qualitie of a King or as a King then all Kings have it yea Nâ—ro and Julian the Apostate Nam quod alicui comunit quà tali communit omni And then I pray you whether ye will admit such a Prince to judge of the Controversies of your Religion If in qualitie of a Christian then all Christians have it for the same reason yea every Cobbler as well as any King or Prince since they be all Christians 3. If as a Christian Prince then all Princes should have it But so it is not For what if we had a Christian Prince who were a Lutheran an Anabaptist a Sociman or a Papist I cannot beleeve that ye would permit such Christian Princes to judge muchlesse to be supreme Judges in your Religion If ye say that ye understand an Orthodox Prince What if he had one or two errours would ye yet permit him to judge of Ecclesiasticall matters Then who should judge whether he were Orthodox or not Whether ye or we What if there were a hundred divers Sects in any Kingdom Then he could onely judge of that Sect which he should professe and of no other Or if he should judge of all he should condemn them all but his own If by the supreme Magistrate ye understand a Parliament then to judge every one of your differences when ever any man challengeth the Church of an unjust judgement or appealeth from it we must gather a Parliament Which if the King and Parliament finde expedient I have nothing to say against it yet every man may judge whether the dispatch of businesse can be so quick and cheap as in the Presbyterian way What if Parliament men be of different Religions shall they of one Religion judge of the other Religion I might bring more Arguments and prosecute them all more fully but this may suffice for Annotations Onely this I adde 1. That it is not equitable that ye five be beleeved upon your simple word in so great an Aspersion as ye lay upon so many Churches yea all the best Reformed Churches without any proof If heretofore they gave you the right hand of fellowship I doubt if after so criminall an accusation they will continue it to you any longer And here I cannot sufficiently admire you in pretending your Church Government to be so compleat and perfect and yet stand insomuch need of the Civill Magistrate 2. I pray the Reader to consider diligently § 20. Pag. 20 21. How by that Speech it appeareth 1. That that Church pretended to have offended did arrogate in disposing of her Minister a power altogether independent from all other both of the Civill Magistrate and of all other Churches Otherwayes that expression should have been impertinent viz. That it was the most to be abhorred Maxime that any Religion hath ever made profession of and therefore of all other the most contradictory and dishonourable to that of Christianitie that a single and particular societie of men professing the name of Christ and pretending to be endowed with a power from Christ to judge them that are of the same body and societie within themselves should further arrogate unto themselves an exemption from giving an account or being censurable by any other either Christian Magistrate above them or Neighbour Churches about them For if she pretended no such power and exemption to what purpose such an expression 2. That in this Ecclesiasticall Judgement that is intrinsecall to the Church they acknowledge the Civill Magistrate to be above them but all the Churches of the Christian World nothing but about them whereof much may be said Here ye symbolize with Erastus in many things 3. Ye may collect that such a most abhorred Maxime was not the Maxime of that Church alone but of some others also for it is not credible that she would have stood out alone in a Maxime so repugnant to the Tenets of all other Churches and after wards submitted her self unto their judgement 4. Ye may see by the event and successe of this businesse a correction of that Maxime wherewith they were tinctured before 5. How God in his most wise Providence has forced those good men out of meer necessitie to
in the World for since it is publiei juris published they will assubject your judgement unto theirs by way of Agitation or disputing of it amongst themselves as much as all the Divines of England yea whether ye will or not Again Since both Houses were pleased to make you Members of that Assembly was not that a sufficient Justification and Vindication of your Persons from all calumnies spread against you and already scattered without speaking a word for your selves § 24. Pag. 24. Truely it is to be supposed that the two Houses would never recommend men thither either ignorant or vicious but the learnedest and godliest of the Kingdom so this your Apology is unseasonable Onely this needs an Apology That being Members of the Assembly ye will not submit your selves unto the Assembly of Divines but take odde wayes proper to you five alone to publish particular Apologies and desire a particular Toleration which no other Members of the Assembly do But as for this transeat cum coeteris crroribus It sufficeth that ye see extraordinary testimonies of the Parliaments and Assemblies most tender affection towards you how they have tolerated much in you the like whereof hath not yet been tolerated in any Member either of Parliament or of the Assembly and all to the end to chase away all pannick fears from your mindes and pretended disadvantages which ye did forcsee § 26. § 26. Pag. 28. Howsoever ye commend much the Parliament and declare That ye grant more to the Civill Magistrate then the principles of Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld Yet even here ye rap him over the Knuckles as if in making you Members of the Assembly he should have been partiall in placing you there with so many disadvantages yea as ye say And therein also upon all sorts of disadvantages which we could not but foresee both in number abilities of learning Authoritie the stream of publike interest Trusting God both with our selves and his own Truth Answ I maintain that the Parliament has done you no wrong for ye were not forced to sit there If there be so great disadvantages ye might have chosen whether you would have sit there at all or not All rationall men think it a great favour which ye esteem so great a disadvantage And as for the Number 1. Think ye that the Parliament ought to have put in such a Number of you that agree not in your opinions amongst your selves as might have over-swayed all the Divines of the Kingdom to the end that ye might afterward have compelled us all to quit the Kingdom as your Friends of New-England have done to others 2. Were ye to be compared in number with the rest of the Divines in this Kingdom who are hundreds for one of you Justice consisteth not in an Arithmeticall but in a Geometricall propertion which here has been observed towards you and that with more equitie then Justice 3. Neither did the Parliament hinder you to call as many Divines of your Profession as pleased you to consult with apart 4. Neither need ye so great a number in the Assemblie for ye seem not for any thing we can see resolved to submit your selves or to acquiesse with any pluralitie of voices either of Parliament or Assemblie wherefore then desire ye so great a number As for Abilities in Learning 1. Ye might also have had with you if it had pleased you as many learned men as ye could finde 2. Neither beleeve I that any others of your Profession could prudently take such a businesse in hand without you Who ever knows you knows well ye want no abilities to dispute your opinion in any Assemblie in Europe Men of learning and of wisedome therefore think that you speak this rather out of modestie then otherwise What ye understand by Authoritie I know not it cannot be Ecclesiasticall since ye acknowledge none in the Church Then it must be politicall and namelie that of the King and Parliament since that no other at this present have power over you and then I could wish ye had spoken more considerately Publike interest Either this must be taken of publike interest in Religion and then it 1º or should be our sole aym and it is no disadvantage for you That both the Parliament and the Assemblie be led by this Interest Or in State and then ye wrong both the Parliament and the Assemblie as if they measured Religion by Worldlie Ends and Interests wherein in ye are not to be beleeved Neither will we retaliate unto you that you may have some further Interests yet that we know not of And consequentlie ye need not to fear for your Persons as if ye were in danger or had subject to fear persecution as in former time § 27. Pag. 28. Ye excuse your selves from false Doctrine whereof no man accuseth you § 28. Ye tell us that the Difference betwixt you and us is not so great the lesse it is the lesse should ye be suiters for a Toleration and if ye obtained it the greater should be your Schisme § 28. Pag. 30. Here also ye excuse your selves that ye have not made a Scholastique Relation of your Judgement whereunto we have already answered and in so doing your opinions remaining lesse known hardly can they be distinctlie refuted § 28. Pag. 39 30. Afterwards ye require two things of the Parliament That it will look upon you under no other Notion or Character then as those who do as little differ from the Reformed Churches and your Brethren yea far lesse then they do from what themselves were three yeers past or then the generalitie of this Kingdom from it self of late 2. Ye require an allowance of a latitude to some lesser differences with peaceablenesse Answ And we pray you do as they have done to the end the Parliament may look upon you as they do upon them 1. They never condemned all the Protestant Churches as ye do 2. They never desired a Toleration to make a Separation as ye do 3. Either they approved not the ill of the times past but patientlie endured it according to their light hoping and praying to God for better without Schisme 4. Or approved it but when it pleased God in his mercy to illuminate them they disapproved what before they had approved of and changed from worse to better which if ye do O what a joy shall it be unto them and to us all and what a contentment may it bring unto your selves And finally As for the latitude and tolerance ye sue for it is unjust and most pernicious both to Christs Church and the Kingdom as we have hear already cleerly demonstrated FINIS