any other Church besides the Romane she never had Communion She cannot be that one because she is but one nor Catholick because she agrees not with any nor Apostolick because she hath acknowledged such a fine and recovery that has quite cut off the entaile which would have otherwise descended unto her from the Apostles neither can she be holy because she is none of all the other three Now if these Attributes cannot belong unto the Protestant Religion and do clearly belong unto the Roman then is the Church of Rome the Catholick Church And that it doth I shall prove it by the marks which God Almighty hath given us whereby we should know her And the first is Universality All Nations shall flow unto her Esa 2. 2. And the Psalmist The heathen shall be thine inheritance and the uttermost part of the Earth for thy possession Psal 2. 2. And our Saviour Matth. 20. 14. This Gospell of the Kingdome shall be preached in all the world as a witnesse to all Nations c. Now I confesse that this glory is belonging to all Professors of the Christian Religion yet amongst all those who do professe the name of Christ I believe Your Majestie will consent with me herein that the Romane Church hath this forme of universality not onely above all different and distinct Professors of Religion but also beyond all Religions of the world Turkes or Heathens and that there is no place in the world where there are not Romance Catholicks which is manifestly wanting to all other Religions whatsoever Now I hope Your Majestie cannot say so of any Protestant Religion neither that Your Majestie will call all those who protest against the Church of Rome otherwise then Protestants but not Protestant Catholicks or Catholicks of the Protestant Religion being they are not religated within the same Communion and fellowships for then Religion would consist in protestation rather then unity in Nations falling off from one another rather then all Nations flowing to one another neither is it a Consideration altogether invalid that the Church of Rome hath kept possession of the name all along other reformed Churches leaving her in possession of the name and taking unto themselves new names according to their severall founders except the Church of England who is now her selfe become like a Chapter that is full of nothing else whose founder was such a one whose name it may be they were unwilling to owne For antiquity if we should inquire after the old paths which is the good way and walke therein as the Prophet Jeremiah adviseth us if we should take our Saviours rule Ab initio autem non fuit sic if we should observe his saying how the good seed was first sowed and then the tares If we should consider the pit from whence we were dug and the rock from whence we were hewen we shall find antiquity more applicatory to the Church of Rome then any Protestant Church But you will say your Religion is as ancient as ours having its procedure from Christ and his Apostles so say the Lutheran Protestants with their Doctrine of Consubstantiation and many other sorts of Protestants having other Tenents altogether contrary to what you hold how shall we reconcile you so say all hereticks that ever were how shall we confute them a part to set up themselmes against the whole and by the power of the sword to make themselves Judges in their owne causes is dealing that were it your case I am sure you would think it very hard I wish you may never find it so For Visibility Our Saviour compares his Church to a Citie placed on a hill according unto the Prophet Davids Prophesie a Tabernacle in the Sun It is likewise compared unto a candle in a candle-stick not under a bushell and saith our Saviour If they shall say unto you behold he is in the desart go ye not forth Behold he is in secret places believe it not forewarning us against obscure and invisible Congregations Now I beseech Your Majestie whether should I betake my selfe to a Church that was alwayes visible and gloriously eminent or to a Protestant Church that was never eminent and for the most part invisible shrowding their defection under an Apostolicall Expression of a woman in the Revelation who fled into the wildernesse for a thousand years as if an allegory could wipe out so many clear texts of Scripture as are set down by our Saviour and the Prophets concerning the Churches invisibility And I could not find any Church in the world to whom that Prophesie of Esay might more fitly appertain then to the Church of Rome I have set watch-men upon the walls which shall never hold their peace day nor night which I am sure no Protestant Church can apply to her selfe It is not enough to say I maintaine the same Faith and Religion which the Apostles taught and therefore I am of the true Church ancient and visible enough because as I have said before every heretick will say as much but if you cannot by these marks of the Church set down in Scripture clear your selves to be the true Church you vainly appeale to the Scriptures siding with you in any particular point for what can be more absurd then to appeale from Scripture setting things down clearly unto Scripture setting down things more obscurely There is no particular point of Doctrine in the holy Scripture so manifestly set downe as that concerning the Church and the Markes thereof nothing set down more copious and perspicuous then the visibility perpetuitie and amplitude of the Church So that Saint Augustin did not stick to say that the Scriptures were more clear about the Church then they were about Christ Let him answer for it He said so in his book de unitate Ecclesiae and this he said was the reason because God in his wisdome would have the Church to be described without any ambiguity that all Controversies about the Church may be clearly decided whereby questions about particular Doctrines may find determinations in her judgement and that Visibility might shew the way unto the most rude and ignorant and I know not any Church to whom it may more justly be attributed then to the Church of Rome whose Faith as in the beginning was spread through the whole world so all along and at this day it is generally known among all nations Next to this I prove the Catholick Church to be the Romane because a lawfull succession of Pastors is required in every true Church according to the Prophet Esay his Prophecie concerning her viz. My Spirit which is upon thee and the words which I have put into thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seed nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed from henceforth for ever This succession I can find onely in the Church of Rome This succession they onely can prove nons else offering to go about it This succession Saint
believed crederem for credidissem the Gospel except the authority of the Church did move or had moved comoveret for commovisset me to it 364 365 c. The Contents of the Second Part of the Rejoynder 1 OF the Doctrine and Discipline of the Church of England Page 1 2 2 Of Luthers Doctrine 3 to 20 3 Zuinglius vindicated from that which by the way is charged upon him 19 4 Of Calvines Doctrine 20 to 35 5 Of Zuinglius his Doctrine 35 to 40 6 Of Melancthons Doctrine 40 41 42. 7 Of Andreas Musculus his Doctrine 42. and in the addition 8 Of the divisons that are among Protestants 42 9 Of that Unity which is among them of the Church of Rome 42 to 46 10 Of Crimes charged upon Protestants and the testimonies alledged for proof of them 46 11 Of Luthers conference with the Devil 46 47 48 12 Whether Zuinglius were an Authour of war and a disturber of peace c. 48 49 13 Beza cleared of a foul aspersion cast upon him 49 50 14 Of Luthers writing against King Henry 8. 50 51 15 Of the people of the reformed Churches whether they be so vitious and corrupt as they are censured 51 52 16 A vindication of Calvin in respect of vild aspersions cast upon him 53 54 17 Mantuans testimony concerning Rome and the corrupt estate of it 54 55 18 Whether the Doctrine of the Church of Rome be the the same still that it was at first 55 19 Of Prayers for the Dead 55 56 57 20 Of Lent-Fast 57 58 21 Of mingling Water with Wine in the Lords Supper 58 59 60 22 Of diverse ceremonies which the Church of Rome useth in Baptisme 60 61 23 Of the necessity of Infants Baptisme and whether they may be saved without it 61 62 63 24 Of the several Ecclesiastical Orders which they have in the Church of Rome 63 64 65 25 Of the Pope and his supremacy 65 66 67 26 Of service in an unknown tongue 67 68 69 27 Of Festivals 69 70 28 Of Reliques 70 71 29 Of Pictures and Images 71 to 77 30 Of the signe of the Crosse 77 31 Of Luther Husse and Wickliffe holding some errours and so others that oppose the Church of Rome 78 32 That some before Berengarius as namely Bertram did professedly impugne that reall presence of Christ in the Sacrament which they of the Church of Rome maintain 79 80 CERTAMEN RELI GIOSUM OR A CONFERENCE BETWEEN The late King of England and the late Lord Marquesse of Worcester concerning Religion at His Majesties being at Ragland-Castle 1646. Marquesse SIr I hope if they catch us in the act it will not be deemed in me an act of so high conspiracy in regard that I enter the lists leaning upon a Doctor of your own Church To whom the King replyed as merrily My Lord I know not whether I should have a better opinion of your Lordship for the Doctors sake or a worse opinion of the Doctor for your Lordships sake for though you leane much upon his arme yet he may lean more upon your judgment Marq. Sir it conduceth a little to the purpose we have in hand to be a little serious in the thing you speak of your Majesty knows the grounds of my acquaintance with the Doctor and my obligation to him which difference in opinion shall never mitigate in point of affection but I protest unto you I could never gain the least ground of him yet in perswading him from his principles King It may be your Lordship hopes to meet with a weaker Disputant of me Marq. Not so and if it please your Majesty but I think thus That if it should please God to make me so happy an instrument of his Churches good as to be a means to incline your royall heart to imbrace the truth I beleeve that he and thousands such as he would be soon brought to follow your Majesty in the right way who are so constant followers of your steps whilst you are in a wrong path the Oaths which they have taken the relation which their Hierarchy have to the Crown which must be no longer so but whilst the government of the Church and soules stand as a reserve to the regiment of lives and fortunes the preferment which they expect from your Majesty and the enjoyment of those preferments which they have already which they must no longer enjoy then whilst they are or seem to be of your opinion causeth them to smother their own knowledge whilst their mouths are stopt with interest whereas if the strong Tide of your Majesties opinion were but once turn'd all the ships in the river would soon turn head Hereupon the Marquesse fell abruptly from his subject and asked the King Sir I pray tell me what is it that you want The King smiled a little at his sudden breaking off and making such preposterous haste to aske that question answered King My Lord I want an Army can you help me to one Marq. Yes that I can and to such a one as should your Majesty commit your self to their fidelity you should be a Conquerour fight as often as you please King My Lord such an Army would do the businesse I pray let me have it Marq. What if your Majesty would not confide in it when it should be presented unto you King My Lord I would fain see it and as fain confide in that of which I had reason to be confident Marq. Take Gedeons three hundred men and let the rest be gone King Your Lordship speaks mystically will it please you to be plain a little Marq. Come I see I must come nearer to you Sir it is thus God expected a work to be done by your hands but you have not answered his expectation nor his mercy towards you when your enemies had more Cities and Garrisons then you had private families to take your part when they had more Cannons then you had Muskets when the people crouded to heap treasures against you whilst your Majesties friends were fain here and there to make a gathering for you when they had Navies at Sea whilst your Majesty had not so much as a Boat upon the River whilst the oddes in number against you was like a full crop against a gleaning then God wrought his miracle in making your gleaning bigger then their vintage he put the power into your hand and made you able to declare your self a true man to God and gratefull to your friends but like the man whom the Prophet makes mention of who bestowed great cost and paines upon his vincyard and at last it brought forth nothing but wilde grapes so when God had done all these things for You and expected that You should have given his Church some respit to their oppressions I heard say You made vows that if God blest You but that day with Victory You would not leave a Catholike in Your Army for which I feare the Lord is so angry with You that I am
light was gathered into the body of the Sun this body so glorious and comfortable is but the same light which was before we cannot make it another though it be otherwise And therefore though the Church and the Scripture like the light that is concomitant and precedent to the Sun be distinct in tearms yet they are but one and the same no man can see the Sun but by it's own light shut your eyes from this light and you cannot behold the body of the Sun Shut your eyes against one and you are blind in both he never had God to be his Father who had not the Church to be his Mother If you admit Sillogismes à priori you will meet with many paralogismes à posteriori cry downe the Churches Authoritie and pull out the Scriptures efficacie give but the Church the lie now and then and you shall have enough will tell you the Scripture is false here and there they who have set so little by the tradition of the Church have set by halfe the Scriptures and will at last throw all away wherefore in a word as to deny any part of the Scripture were to open a vein so to question any thing which the Church proposes is to teare the seamelesse Coat of Christ and to pierce his body King My Lord I see you are better provided with Arguments then I am with memorie to run through the series of your Discourse satisfie me but in one thing and I shall soone yeild to all that you have said and that is concerning this Catholick Church you talke of I know the creed tells us that we must believe it and Christ tells us that we must hear it but neither tell us that that is the Church of Rome Marq. Gratious Sir the creed tells us that it is the Catholick Church and Saint Paul tells us in his epistle to the Romans that their faith was spread abroad through the whole world King That was the Faith which the Romanes then believed which is nothing to the Roman Faith which is now believed Marq. The Roman Faith then and now are the same King I deny that my Lord. Marq. When did they alter their Faith King That requires a librarie Neither is it requisite that I tell you the time when if the envious man sowes his tares whilst the husband-man was asleep and afterwards he awakes and sees the tares are they not tares because the husband-man knowes not when they were sown Marq. And if it please Your Majestie in a thing that is so apparent your similitude holds good but the differences between us and the Protestants are not so without dispute as that it is yet granted by the major part of Christians that they are errours which we believe contrary to your Tenents and therefore the similitude holds not but I shall humbly intreat Your Majestie to consider the proofs which the learned Cardinal Peroone hath made concerning this particular in his answer to your Royall Father his Apologie to all Christian Princes where he proves how that all the Tenents which are in controversie now between you and us were practised in the Church of Christ within the first three hundred years wherefore I think it would be no injury to reason to require belief that that which hath been so long continued in the Church and so universally received and no time can be set down when those Tenents or Ceremonies did arise must needs be Catholick for time and place and Apostolicall for institution though we have no warrant from the Scriptures to believe them to be such For the Apostle Saint Paul commanded Timothy to keep fast the things which he had delivered unto him as well by word as by writ Wherefore if we will believe no tradition we may come at last to believe no writings King That was your owne fault wherefore I blame your Church for the way to make the Scriptures not believed were to adde unto them new inventions and say they were Scriptures Marq. If the Church of Christ had so mean esteeme then as amongst some she hath now certainly the former books received into her Canon would have been much prejudiced by the admittance of the latter wherefore if the Church be questionable then all is brought in question King My Lord you have not satisfied me where this Church is and as concerning the Cardinals book I have seen it and have read a part of it but doe not remember neither doe I believe that he hath prov'd that which you say Marq. It may be the proofes were in that part of the book which Your Majesty did not read and as for my proving the Roman Church to be this Church by which we should be all guided I thus shall doe my endeavour That Church whose Doctrine is most Catholick and universall must be the Catholick Church but the Roman Church is such Ergo. King My Lord I deny your Minor the Romane Church is not most universall the Grecian Church is far more spreading and if it were not it were no Argument for the Church of the Mahumetanes is larger then both Marq. First This is no Argument either for an English Man or a Protestant but for a Grecian or Mahumetane not for an English Man because he received his Conversion from Rome and therefore he in Reason should not look beyond Rome or the Doctrine that Rome practised then when they converted England nor for a Protestant because he is as far distant from the Grecian Church in matter of opinion as from the Romane and therefore he need not look for that which he hath no desire to find besides the Greek Church hath long agoe submitted to the Church of Rome and there is no reason that others should make Arguments for her who are not of her when she stands in no competition her selfe besides there is not in any place wherever the Greek Church is or hath beene planted where there are not Roman Catholicks but there are diverse Countreys in Christendome where there is not one Professour of the Greek Church neither is there a place in all the Turks Dominions where there are not Romane Catholicks nor in any part of the world where there are not multitudes of Romanes neither is there a Protestant Countrey in Christendome where there are not Romane Catholicks numberlesse but not a Protestant amongst the Natives neither of Spaine or Italy Shew me but one Protestant Countrey in the world who ever deserted the Romane Faith but they did it by Rebellion except England and there the King and the Bishops were the principall reformers I pray God they doe not both suffer for it Shew me but one reformed Church that is of the opinion of another aske an English Protestant where was your Religion before Luther and he will tell you of Hus and Jerom of Prague search for their Tenents and you shall find them as far different from the English Protestant as they are from one another run to the Waldenses for
Augustin sayes kept him in that Church viz. a succession of Priests from the very seat of Peter the Apostle to the present Bishop of his time And Optatus Milevitanus reckons all the Romane Bishops from Saint Peter to Syricius who then was Pope and by this he shewed and made it his Argument that the true Church was not with the Donatists bidding them to shew the originall of their Chayre this no Protestant did or ever can doe The Romane Church gave the English Bishops Commission to preach the Doctrine of Christ as they have delivered it unto them but they never gave them any Commission to preach against her Religion which Bishops being turned out for observing the depositum wherewith they were instructed and new Bishops chosen in their room by her who not contenting her selfe with being a nursing mother thereof must needs be head of the child and moderatrix in the same Church wherein by the Apostles precept she is forbidden to speak the succession was broke off the branch cut off from the body becoming no part of the tree fit for nothing but to be chopt into smaller pieces and so fitted for the fire this proofe of succession the Bishops of England thought so necessary for proving their Church to be the true Church that they affirmed themselves to be consecrated by Catholick Bishops their Predecessors which never proved argues the interruption and affirming it shews how that in their owne opinion the succession could not hold in the inferiour Ministers as indeed it cannot for as there is a continued supply of Embassadours in all places yet the succession is in the royall race so though all vacancies are replenished by Ministers of the Gospel yet the succession of the Authority was in the Bishops as descended to them from the Apostles according to our Saviours rule I will be with you alwayes unto the end of the world Which Affirmation of theirs argues that their calling is sufficient without it and in that they would faine derive it from the Church of Rome it argues that that is the true Church and yet they would forsake her supposing her to have errors when that Reformation it selfe was but a supposition for seeing they hold that their Church may erre they can be certain of nothing and whilst for errors sake they forsake the Church of Rome the Church of England in forsaking her may be in the greatest error of all where there is neither Succession nor assurance I must leave her to her selfe and your Majestie to judge Next I prove the Romane Church to be the true Church by her unity in Doctrine for so the Apostle Paul requires all the Churches children to be of one mind viz. I beseech you that all speak one thing Be ye knit together in one mind and one Judgement 1 Cor. 1. Endeavouring to keep the unitie of the Spirit in the bond of peace Ephes 4. 3. The multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul Act. 4. 32. Continue in one Spirit and one mind of one accord and one judgement Phil. 1. 27. Phil. 2. 2. So our Saviour prayeth that they may be one So Joseph forewarned his brethren that they should not fall out by the way knowing that whilst they were with him he could order them when they came to their father he could order them but having no head they should be apt to be dissentious This Unity I find no where but in the Church of Rome agreeing in all things which the Church of Rome hath determined for Doctrine whereas the Protestant Doctrine like the heresie of Simon Magus divided it selfe into severall Sects and to that of the Donatists which were cut into small threds in so much that among the many Religions which are lately sprung up and the sub sub sub-divisions under them each one pretending to be the true Protestant excluding the other and all of them together no more likely to be bound up in the bond of peace then a bundle of thornes can expect binding with a rope of sand In vaine is their excuse if non-disagreement in fundameatalls for they dis-agree amongst themselves about the Sacrament for the Lutherans hold Consubstantiation but the Church of England no such matter Some that Christ descended into hell others not The Church of England maintain their King to be the head of the Church The Helvetians will acknowledge no such matter the Presbyterians will acknowledge no such matter the Independent will acknowledge no such matter Concerning the Government of the Church by Bishops some Protestants maintaine it to be Jure Divino others to be Jure Ecclesiastico others no such matter Some think that the English translations of the Bible in some places takes away in other places addes and other some places changes the meaning of the holy Ghost and some think it no such matter or else the Bishops would not have recommended it unto the people Lastly they are so far from agreeing about the true meaning of the word of God that they cannot agree upon what is the word of God For Lutherans deny the second Epistle of Saint Peter the second and third Epistle of Saint John the Epistle to the Hebr. the Epistle of Saint James and Saint Jude and the Revelation The Calvinists and the Church of England no such matter they allow them And I believe that these are fundamentalls If they cannot agree upon their Principalls how shall they agree upon the deductions thence If these be not fundamentall points how come Protestants to fight against Protestants for the Protestants Religion The disagreement is not so amongst the Romane Catholicks for all points of the Romane Religion that have been defined by the Church in a generall Councell are agreed upon exactly by all nations tongues and people uibicunque terrarum but in those points which are not determined by the Church the Church leaves every man to abound in his owne sense and therefore all the heat that is either between the Thomists and the Scolists the Dominicans and the Jesuits either concerning the Conception of our blessed Lady or the concurrence of Grace and free-will c. being points wherein the Church hath not interposed her decrees is no more prejudicall or objectionall against the Church of Romes Unitie then the disputations in the Schools of our Universities are prejudiciall to the 39. Articles of the Church of England But in each severall Protestant Dominion there are certain severall Articles of beliefe belonging to severall Protestant Dominions in which severall agreements not any one agrees with any of all the rest neither is there any possibility they should being there is no means acknowledged nor power ordained whereby they should be gathered together in one councell whereby they might be of one heart and of one soule neither is there this Unitie in any one particular Dominion as is in the Dominion of the Roman Church for they are all in pieces amongst themselves even in
acknowledgment The Fathers are on our side Orig. Hom. 2. in Levit. S. Chrys lib. 3. de Sacerd. S. Aug. in speculo Ser. 215. de temp Vener Bed in 6. Marke and S. James and many others Thus most Sacred SIR we have no reason to wave the Scriptures umpirage so that you will hear it speak in the mother language and not produce it as a witnesse on your side when the producers tell us nothing but their owne meaning in a language unknowne to all the former ages and then tell us that she saith so and they will have it so because he that hath a Bible and a sword shall carry away the meaning from him that hath a Bible and ne're a sword nor is it more blasphemy to say that the Scripture is the Churches off spring because it is the word of God then it is for me to say I am the sonne of such a man because God made me instrumentally I am so and so was shee for as saith Saint Aug Evangelio non crederum nisi me Ecclesiae anthoritas commoveret I should not believe the Gospel it selfe unlesse I were moved by the authority of the Church There was a Church before there was a Scripture take which Testament you please We grant you that the Scripture is the Originall of all light yet we see light before we see the Sun and we know there was a light when there was no Sun the one is but the body of the other We grant you the Scriptures to be the Celestiall globe but we must not grant you that every one knows how to use it or that it is necessary or possible they should We grant that the Scripture is a light to our feet and a lanthorne to our paths then you must grant me that it is requisite that we have a guide or else we may lose our way in the light as well as in the darke We grant you that it is the food of our souls yet there must be some body that must divide or break the bread We grant you that it is the onely antidote against the infection of the Devil yet it is not every ones profession to be a compounder of the ingredients We grant your Majesty the Scripture to be the only sword and buckler to defend a Church from her Ghostly enemies yet I hope you will not have the glorious company of the Apostles and the goodly fellow ship of the Prophets to exclude the noble Army of Martyrs and the holy Church which through all the world doth acknowledge Christ wherefore having shewne Your Majestie how much the Scriptures are ours I shall now consider your opinions apart from us and see how they are yours and who sides with You in Your opinion besides Your selves and first I shall crave the boldnesse to begin with the Protestants of the Church of England The Church of England WHose Religion as it is in opposition to ours consists altogether in denying for what she affirms we affirme the same as the Reall presence the infallibility visibility universality and unity of the Church confession and remission of sins free-will and possibility of keeping the Commandments c. All these things you deny and you may as well deny the blessed Trinity for we have no such word in Scripture onely inference then that which ye have already denyed and for which we have plaine Scripture Fathers Councels practise of the Church that which ye hold positive in your Discipline is more erroneous then that which is negative in your Doctrine as your maintaining a woman to be head Supreame or Moderatrix in the Church who by the Apostles rule is not to speak in the Church or that a Lay-man may be so what Scripture or Fathers or custome have ye for this or that a Lay-man as your Lay-Chancellour should excommunicate and deliver up soules to Sathan Whereas matters of so weighty concernment as delivering of mens soules into the Devils hands should not be executed and upon mature deliberation and immergent occasions and not by any but those who have the undoubted Authority lest otherwise you make the Authority it selfe to be doubted of A strange Religion whose Ministers are denyed the power of remitting sins whilst Lay-men are admitted to the power of retaining them and that upon every ordinary occasion as non-payment of fees and the like Whereas such practises as these have rendred the rod of Aaron no more formidable then a reed shaken with the wind so that you have brought it to this that whilst such men as these were permitted to excommunicate for a threepeny matter the people made not a three-peny matter of their Excommunication The Church of Saxony NOw for the Church of Saxony you shall find Luther a man not only obtruding new Doctrine upon his Disciples without Scripture or contrary to Scripture but also Doctrine denying Scripture to be Scripture and vilipending those books of Scripture which were received into the Canon and acknowledged to be the word of God in all ages As The book of Eccles saying That it hath never a perfect sentence in it and that the Author thereof had neither boots nor spurs but rid upon a long stick or begging shooes as he did when he was a Fryar And the book of Job that the argument thereof is a meer fiction invented onely for the setting downe of a true and lively example of patience That it is a false opinion and to be abolished that there are four Gospels and that the Gospel of S. John is only true That the Epistle of S. James is contentious swelling dry strawy and unworthy an Apostolical spirit And that Moses in his writings shewes unpleasant stopped and angry lips in which the word of grace is not but of wrath death and sin He calls him a Goaler Executioner and a cruell Serjeant For his doctrine He holds a threefold Divinity or three kinds as there are three persons whereupon Zwinglius taxes him for maning three Gods or three Natures in the Divinity He himselfe is angry with the word Trinity calling it a humane invention and a thing that soundeth very coldly He justifies the Arrians and saith they did very well in expelling the word Homousion being a word that his soule hated He affirmed that Christ was from all eternity even according to his humane nature taxed for it by Zwing in these words how can Christ then be said to be borne of a woman He affirmes that as Christ dyed with great pain so he seeems to have sustained pains in Hell after death That the divinity of Christ suffered or else he were none of his Christ That if the humane nature should only suffer for him that Christ were but a Saviour of a vile account and had need himselfe of another Saviour Luther held not onely consubstantiation but also saith Hospinian that the body and bloud of Christ both is and may be found according
authority of the Church as if were it not for the authority of the Church the Scripture were of no force neither could deserve any credit So the Romanists do frequently pervert those words of Austine but Austines meaning was only this that the Churches authority by way of introduction was a means to bring him to beleeve the Gospel by propounding and commending the Gospel unto him as a thing to be beleeved whereas otherwise he should not have given heed to it nor taken notice of it not as if he did finally rest in the authority of the Church and resolve his faith into it No for as I have shewed before he would have the Church it selfe sought in the Scripture and proved by it Had not the woman of Samaria told those among whom she lived of Christ they had not come to the knowledge of him much lesse to beleeve in him yet having heard Christ himselfe they did not rest in the testimony of the woman but said unto her Now we beleeve not because of thy saying for we have heard him our selves and know that this is indeed the Christ and the Saviour of the world Joh. 4. 42. So should not the Church hold out unto us the Scriptures we should not know much lesse beleeve them but at length God by his Spirit opening our understandings that we may understand the Scriptures Luke 24. 45. we come to be convinced by the Scriptures themselves that they are the Oracles of God and of divine authority Melchior Canus a learned Writer of the Church of Rome holds that the formall reason of our faith is not the authority of the Church that is that the last resolution of our faith is not into the Churches testimony And he saith that he could not dissemble their errour who hold that our faith is to be reduced thither as to the utmost cause of beleeving For the confuting of this errour he saith belongs that Ioh. 4. Now we beleeve not because of thy saying for we our selves have heard him and know c. The same authour averres that the authority of the Church is not a reason by it selfe moving to beleeve but only a cause or meanes without which we should not beleeve viz. Because as he addes the Church doth propound unto us that the Scripture is the word of God and except the Church did so propound it we should never ordinarily come to beleeve it yet we doe not therefore beleeve the Scripture to be Gods word because the Church doth say it but because God doth reveal it If the Church saith he doth make way for us to know such sacred books we must not therefore rest there but we must goe further and must relye on Gods solid truth And then he brings in that very speech of Austine and shewes what he meant by it Hereby is understood saith he what Austine meant when he said I should not beleeve the Gospell except the authority of the Church did move me And again By the Catholikes I had beleeved the Gospell For Austine had to doe with the Manichees who without dispute would have a certain Gospell of theirs beleeved and so would establish the faith of the Manichees Austine therefore askes them what they would doe if they did light upon a man who did not beleeve so much as the Gospell what kind of perswasion they would use to bring him to their opinion He affirmes that himselfe could not be otherwise brought to embrace the Gospell but that the authority of the Church did overcome him He doth not therefore teach that the faith of the Gospell is grounded upon the Churches authority but only that there is no certain way whereby either infidels or novices in the faith may have entrance to the holy books but one and the same consent of the Catholike Church This he himselfe hath sufficiently explicated in the fourth Chapter of that Epistle and in his book to Honoratus concerning the benefit of beleeving I have thus largely cited the words of this learned Romanist because no Protestant can speak more clearly and more fully to the purpose That which the Marquesse after addeth is nothing against us viz. That there was a Church before there was any Scripture that though the Scripture be a light yet we have need of some to guide us though it be the food of our soules yet there must be some to administer it unto us though it be an antidote against the infection of the devill yet it is not for every one to be a compounder of the ingredients that though it be the onely sword and buckler to defend the Church from her Ghostly enemies yet this doth not exclude the noble army of Martyrs and the holy Church which through all the world doth acknowledg Christ All this I say is nothing at all against us who do so assert the authority of the Scripture as that we doe not evacuate the Churches ministery Timothy must preach but it is the word viz. of God contained in the Scriptures which he must preach 2 Tim. 4. 2. If any man speak for the instructing of others he must speak as the Oracles of God 1 Pet. 4. 11. He must confirm that which he doth speak by the Scriptures And so on the other side they that hear must take heed how and what they hear Luke 8. 18. Mark 4. 24. They must not beleeve every Spirit but must try the Spirits whether they be of God 1 John 4. 1. They must to the Law and to the Testimony for that if any speak not according to this word it is because they have no light in them Isai 8. 20. They must search the Scriptures diligently to see whether the things delivered unto them be so or no. Acts 17. 11. OF THE CHVRCH of ENGLAND THE SECOND PART OF THE Rejoynder to the Marquess of WORCESTER'S Reply MAJESTIE' 's Answer to the said Marquesse's Plea for the ROMISH RELIGION THE Marquesse saith that he will now consider the Opinions of Protestants apart from them of the Church of Rome and begin with the Church of England The Religion of this Church he saith as it is in opposition to theirs consists wholly in denying for that what she affirms they affirm the same as the Real presence the Infallibility Visibility Universality and Unity of the Church Confession and Remission of sinnes Free-will Possibility of keeping the Commandments c. And you may as well saith he deny the blessed Trinity for we have no such word in Scripture only inference as that which you have already denied for which we have plain Scripture c. But 1. it is not altogether so that what the Church of England doth affirm the same they of the Church of Rome do affirm also For the Church of England Art 9. doth affirm alleadging the authority of the Apostle for proof thereof that Concupiscence hath of it self the nature of sinne even in the regenerate which the Romanists deny the Councel of Trent accurseth
doe rather call for our care and diligence to suppresse them For answer unto this I grant that the prevailing errours of the times are mainly to be opposed yet as our Saviour said in another case this ought to be done and the other not to be left undone Yea Popery is the grand evill that doth infest the Church and by how much it is the more inveterate the more diffused by so much the danger of it is the greater and it requires the more opposition There is also a speciall warning to come out of Babylon Revel 18. 4. and certainly it will availe us little to come out except we also keepe out of it And if we would keep our selves out of Babylon we must keepe the Babylonish Doctrine from finding entertainment with us This will aske no little care no humane policy in the world I think being greater then that which is used either for the supporting of that doctrine where it is or the introducing of it where it is not embraced Shall we thinke that the Romanists are idle in these busy times Though few doe shew themselves as the Marquesse did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with open face yet we may well suspect that many are working so as that by how much they are the lesse conspicuous by so much they are the more dangerous And as David in a certaine case said to the woman of Tekoah Is not the hand of Joab with thee in all this So in respect of that heape of heterodox opinions that is among us may it not be said Is not the hand of a Iesuite in all this Diverse Pamphlets in these times have admonished us to beware and among the rest one intituled Mutatus Polemo what ever the Authors designe were doth speake not a little to this purpose Before these trouble some times began some have either expressed as Mr. Archer or intimated as Mr. Mede that in their opinion Popery shall yet againe for a while universally prevaile in those Countries and Nations out of which it hath bin expelled If this be so as for any thing I see I may hope the contrary may it not be feared that as those many Antichrists as they are called 1 Joh. 2. 18. that is those many heretikes that were in the primitive times did make way for the rise of that great Antichrist so these in our times may make way for the restauration of him And whereas we have heard long since of Romes Master-peece I see not how any Romish designe can better deserve this title then so to debase the Ministery and to decry learning as the practice of many is in these times Hoc Ithacus velit hoc magno mercentur Atreidae The Chieftaines of the Church of Rome can desire nothing more then that among their adversaries the Ministery should be cast down and learning overthrown For then why should they doubt but that they may soon reduce all unto them none being now of any competent ability to oppose them It is observed by those that are acquainted with Ecclesiasticall History that when Learning was the lowest then Popery got to be highest as the one decayed so the other was advanced and on the otherside that the restauration of good literature did make way for the Reformation of Religion Surely if Popery overspread againe barbarisme and illiteratenesse is a most likely means to effect it Neither are the Papists I suppose lesse politick and wise in their generation then Julian the Apostate was who could see no fairer way whereby to re establish Gentilisme then by indeavouring to devest Christians of Learning a thing so vile and odious that Ammianus Marcellinus himselfe though a Pagan and a great admirer of Julian was ashamed of it and shewed great dislike of Julian for it calling it a cruell part and a thing to be buried in perpetuall silence But I have held Thee Reader longer then I did intend I will preface no further but praying unto the Lord to preserve his Church from errors without and to purge it from errors within I rest Thy Friend and lover in the truth C C. The CONTENTS of the FIRST PART OF THE REIOYNDER 1 OF the marks of the true Church which they of the Church of Rome assigne as Universality Antiquity Visibility Succession of Pastors unity in Doctrine and the Coversion of Nations Page 107 to 114 2 Of having recourse unto the Scriptures in matters that concern Religion 114 115 116 3 Of relying either on Fathers singly and severally considered or on a generall Councel 116 117 118 119 4 That the Apostles as Pen-men of the Holy Ghost could not erre 120 5 Of the easiness and plainness of the Scriptures 120 121 6 Of the presence of Christ in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper 122 to 140 7 Whether the Church hath any infallible rule besides the Scripture for the understanding of Scripture 140 to 147 8 Againe of the Scriptures being easie to be understood 147 148 9 Whether the Church can erre or not 148 to 152 10 Againe of the Visibility of the Church 152 153 11 Of the Universality of the Church 153 to 158 12 Of the unity of the Church in matters of faith 158 159 13 Of Kings and Queens being Heads or Governours and Governesses of the Church within their Dominions 159 160 14 Of the Ministers power to forgive sins 159 as 't is misprinted to 162 15 Of confessing sins to a ghostly Father 162 to 172 16 Of works of Superogation 172 to 176 17 Of Free-will 176 to 195 18 Of the possibility of keeping the Commandements 196 to 201 19 Of Justification by faith alone 201 to 211 20 Of Merits 211 to 216 21 Whether justifying faith may be lost 216 to 221 22 Of Reprobation 221 to 239 23 Of assurance of Salvation 239 to 251 24 Whether every Believer hath a peculiar Angel to be his guardian 251 to 254 25 Of the Angels praying for us and knowing our thoughts 254 255 256 26 Of praying to the Angels 256 to 261 27 Whether the Saints deceased know our affairs here below 261 to 266 28 Of the Saints deceased praying for us 266 to 269 29 Of praying to the Saints deceased 269 to 276 30 Of Confirmation whether it be a Sacrament properly so called 276 to 281 31 Of communicating in one kinde 281 to 287 32 Of the sacrifice of the Masse as they call it or whether Christ be truly and properly offered up and sacrificed in the Eucharist or Lords Supper 287 to 296 33 Whether Orders or rather Ordination be a Sacrament of like nature with Baptisme and the Lord Supper 296 to 301 34 Of Vows of chastity and of the Marriage of Ecclesiastical persons 301 to 318 35 Of Christs descending into Hell 319 to 340 36 Of Purgatory 340 to 355 37 Of extreme Unction 355 to 363 38 Of the saying of Austine Evangelio non crederem nisi me Ecclesiae Authoritas commoveret I should not believe or should not have
and maintaine it to be lawfull and not onely so but the Picture of God the Father like an old man and many other things which I forbeare because I feare you have done your selfe more hurt then me good in depriving your selfe of the rest to which you are accustomed for whilst our Arguments do multiplie our time lessens to that of Saint James where it is said that faith profiteth nothing without good works I hope the Doctor here can tell you that Saint Paul saith that we are justified by Faith and not by the works of the Law Marq. Sir I believe the Doctor will neither tell Your Majestie nor me that Faith can justifie without works King That question the Doctor can soone decide what say you to it Doctor you must speak now Doctor If it may please Your Majestie it would be as great a disobedience to hold my peace now I am commanded to speak as it would have been a presumption in me to speak before I was commanded I am so far from thinking that either Faith without good works or that good works without Faith can justifie that I cannot believe that there is such a thing as either No more then I can imagine that there may be a tree bearing fruit without a root or that the Sun can be up before it be day or that a fire can have no heat for although it be possible that a man may do some good without Faith yet he cannot do good works without it for though we may naturally incline to some goodnesse as flowers and plants naturally grow to perfection Yet this good cannot be said to be wrought by us but by the hand of Faith and Faith her selfe where she is truly so can no more stand still then can the Sun in the Firmament or refuse to let her light so shine before men that they may see her good works then the same Sun can appeare in the same Firmament and dart no beams And whilst Faith and good works strive for the proprietie of Justification I do believe they both exclude a third which hath more right to our Justification then either For that which we call Justification by Faith is not properly Justification but onely an apprehension of it as that which we call Justification by good works is not properly Justification but onely a Declaration of it to be so exempli gratia I receive a pardon my hand that receiv's it doth not justifie 't is put in execution and read in open Court all this did not procure it me Doubtlesse there is a reward for the righteous doubtlesse there is a God that judgeth the Earth wherefore upon this ground of beliefe I work out my Salvation as well as I can and do all the good that lies in my power I do good works Doubtlesse this man hath some reason for what he doth it is because he hath store of Faith which believes there is a God and that that God will accept of his endeavours wherefore to him alone who hath given us Faith and hath wrought all our good works in us can we properly attribute the tearme of Justification Iustificatio apprehensiva we may conceive and beare in our hearts Iustificatio declarativa we may shew with our hands but Iustificatio Effectiva proper and effectuall Justification none can lay claim unto but Christ alone that as our sins were imputed unto Christ so his righteousnesse might be ours by imputation King Doctor I thank you in this point I believe you have reconciled us both Doctor May it please Your Majestie if the venome were taken out there is no wound in the Churches body but might soon be healed Marq. Hereat the Marquesse somewhat earnestly cryed Hold Sir You have said well in one respect but there are two wayes of Iustification in us and two without us Christ is a cause of Iustification by his grace and merits without us and so we are justified by Baptisme and we are justified by the gifts of God in us viz. Faith Hope and Charity Whereupon the King spake as quickly King But my Lord both Justifications come from Christ according to your owne saying That without us by his grace and merit that within us by his gifts and favour therefore Christ is all in all in the matter of Justification and therefore though there were a thousand wayes and meanes to our Justification yet there is but one effectuall cause and that is Christ Marq. How is it then that we are called by the Apostle Cooperarii Christo Fellow-workers together with Christ King The Doctor hath told you how already If you lie wallowing in sin and Christ helps you out your reaching of him your hand is a working together with Christ Yet for all that it cannot be said that you helped yourselfe out of the ditch for then there had been no need of Christ Your apprehending the succour that came unto you no way attributes the God have mercie to your selfe no more then the declaring your selfe to be alive by action is the cause of setting you upon your leggs so that we may divide this threefold Justification as Peter divided his three Tabernacles here is one for Moses and one for Elias I pray let us have one for Christ and let that be the chiefe Marq. And Reason good King I wish that all Controversies betwixt you and Us were as well decided I am fully satisfied in this point Doctor May it please Your Majestie A great many Controversies between us and the Papists might be soon decided if the Churches revenues which were every where taken away more or lesse where differences in Religion in severall parts of the world did arise in the Church were not an obstacle of the re-union like the stone which the Crab cast into the Oyster which hindred it from ever shutting it selfe againe like the division which happened between the Greek and Latine Church Photinus intrudes himselfe into the Patriarch-ship of Constantinople over the head of Ignatius the lawfull Patriarch thereof whom the Pope preserved in his Communion and then the difference of the Procession of the holy Ghost between those two Churches was fomented by the said Photinus lest the wound should heale too soon and the patient should not be held long enough in cure for the benefit of the Chyrurgion Sacriledge hath brought more divisions then the nature of their causes have required and the Universities play with edged tools whilst hungry stomacks run away with their meat wherefore since Your Majestie was pleased to discharge the watch that I had set before the dore of my lips I shall make bold to put Your Majestie in mind of holding my Lord to the demand which Your Majestie once made unto his Lordship concerning the true Church for if once that Question were throughly determined all Controversies not onely between Your Majestie and his Lordship but also all the Controversies that ever were started would soon be decided at a short race end and without this we
dici in quibusdam locis sacrae Scripturae ab i is quae in aliis locis aperta perspicua sunt explicantur Hom 13. in Gen. Those things which may seeme to be ambiguous and obscure in certaine places of the holy Scripture must be explicated from those places which else-where are plain and manifest Augustinus Ille qui cor habet quod precisum est iungat Scripturae legat superiora vel inferiora inveniet sensum Let him who hath a precise heart joyne it unto the Scriptures and let him observe what goes before and that which follows after and he shall find out the sense Gregorius saith Ser. 49. De verbis Domini Per Scripturam loquitur Deus omne quod vult voluntas dei sicut in testamento sic in evangelio inquiratur By Scripture God speaks his whole mind and the will of God as in the old Testament so in the new is to be found out Optatus contra Parmenonem lib. 5. Num quis aequior arbiter veritatis divinae quam Deus aut ubi deus manifestius loquitur quam in verbo suo Is there a better judge of the divine verity then God himselfe or where doth God more manifestly declare himselfe then in his owne word What breath shall we believe then but that which is the breath of God the holy Scriptures for it seems all one to Saint Paul to say dicit Scriptura the Scripture saith Rom. 4. 3. and dicit Deus the Lord saith Rom. 9. 17. The Scripture hath concluded all under sin Gal. 3. 22. for that which Rom. 11. 32. he saith God hath concluded all c. how shall we otherwise conclude then but with the Apostle 1 Cor. 2. 12. have received not the spirit of the world but the spirit which is of God that we might know the things that are freely given unto us of God They who know not this spirit do deride it but this spirit is hidden Manna Apo. 2. 17. which God giveth them to eat who shall overcome it is the white stone wherein the new name is written which no man knoweth but he that received it Wherefore we see the Scripture is the rule by which all differences may be composed it is the light wherein we must walke the food of our souls an antidote that expels any infection the onely sword that kils the enemy the onely plaster that can cure our wounds and the onely documents that can be given towards the attainment of everlasting salvation The Marquesses reply to the Kings Paper May it please your most excellent Majesty YOur Majestie is pleased to wave all the marks of the true Church and to make recourse unto the Scriptures I humbly take leave to aske your Majesty what heretique that ever was did not doe so How shall the greatest heretique in the world be confuted or censured if any man may be permitted to appeale to Scriptures margind with his own notes senc'd with his owne meaning and enlivened with his owne private spirit to what end were those marks so fully both by the Prophets the Apostles and our Saviour himselfe set downe if we make no use of them To what use are land-marks set up if Marriners will not believe them to be such Yet notwithstanding after that I have said what I have to say in removall of certain obstacles that lie in the way I shall lead your Majesty to my Church through the full body of the Scriptures or not at all and then I shall leave it to your royall heart to judge when you shall see that we have Scripture on our side whether or no the interpretation thereof be likelier to be true that hath been adjudged so by Councels renowned Fathers famous for sanctity and holinesse of life continued for the space of a thousand or twelve hundred years by your owne confession universally acknowledged or that such a one as Luther his word shall be taken either without Scripture or against it with sic volo and sic jubeo a man who confessed himselfe that he received his doctrine from the Devil or such a one as Calvin and their associates notoriously infamous in their lives and conversations plain Rebels to their Moses and Aaron united to the same person should counter ballance all the worthies determinations of Councels and the continued practice which so many ages produced If your Majestie meanes by the Church all the professors of the Gospel all that are Christians are so the true Church then we are so in your owne sense and you in ours then none who believe in the blessed Trinity the Articles of the Creed none who deny the Scriptures to be the word of God let them construe them as they please can be hereticall or of a wrong Religion therefore we must contradistinguish them thus and by the Protestant Church and Religion we must understand those opinions which the Protestants hold contrary to the Church of Rome and by the Romane the opinions which they hold dissenting from the Protestant and then we will see whether we have Scripture for our Religion or not and whether you have Scripture for what you maintaine and whose opinions are most approved of by the Primitive times and Fathers and what ground your late Divines have built their new opinions upon and then I shall give you Majestie an answer to the objection which you make against our Church viz. That she hath forsaken her first love and fallen from the principles which she held when she converted us to Christianity But first to the removall of those rubs in our way and then I shall shew as much reverence to the Scripture as any Protestant in the world and shall endeavour to shew your Majesty that the Scriptures are the Basis or foundation upon which our Church is built Your Majesty was pleased to urge the errors of certaine Fathers to the prejudice of their authority which I conceive would have been so had they been all Montanists Rebaptists all Anthropomorphists and all of them generally guilty of the faults wherewith they were severally charged in the particulars seeing that when we produce a Father we doe not intend to produce a man in whose mouth was never found guile the infallibility being never attributed by us otherwise then unto the Church not unto particular Church-men as Your Majesty hath most excellently observed in the failings of the holy Apostles who erred after they had received the holy Ghost in so ample manner but when they were all gathered together in Councell and could send about their edicts with these capitall letters in the front Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Acts 15. 28. then I hope your Majesty cannot say that it was possible for them to erre So though the Fathers might erre in particulars yet those particular errors would be swallowed up in a generall Councel and be no more considerable in respect of the whole then so many heat-drops of error can stand in competition with a cloud
Ceremonies and of Apostolicall tradition She held then besides Batisme and the Eucharist Confirmation Marriage Orders and extream Unction for true and proper Sacraments which the Church of Rome now acknowledgeth The Church in the Ceremonies of Baptisme used then oyl salt wax-lights exorcismes the signe of the Cross the word Ephata and other that accompany it none of them without reason and excellent signification The Church held then Baptisme for infants of absolute necessity and for this cause then permitted lay men to baptise in danger of death the Church used then holy water consecrated by certain words and Ceremonies and made use of it both for Baptisme and against inchantments and to make exorcismes and conjurations against evill spirits The Church held then divers degrees in the Ecclesiasticall Regiment to wit Bishops Priests Deacons Subdeacons the Acolite Exorcist Reader and Porter consesecrated and blessed them with divers Forms and Ceremonies And in the Episcopall Order acknowledged divers seats of Jurisdiction of positive right to wit Archbishops Primates Patriarchs and one Supereminent by Divine law which was the Pope without whom nothing could be decided appertaining to the universall Church and the want of whose presence either by himselfe or his Legats or his Confirmation made all Councels pretended to be universall unlawfull In the Church then the service was said throughout the East in Greek and throughout the West as well in Africa as in Europe in Latin although that in none of the provinces except in Italy and the Cities where the Romane Colonies resided the Latine tongue was understood by the common people She observed then the distinction of feasts and ordinary dayes the Distinction of Ecclesiasticall and lay habits the reverence of sacred vessels the custome of shaming and unction for the collation of orders the Ceremony of the Priest washing his hands at the Altar before the consecration of the Mysteries She then pronounced a part of the service at the Altar with a low voice made processions with the reliques of Martyrs kissed them carried them in clothes of silke and vessels of gold took and esteemed the dust from under their reliquaries accompanied the dead to their sepulchres with wax tapers in sign of joy for the certainty of their future resurrection The Church then had the picture of Christ and of his Saints both out of Churches and in them and upon the very Altars not to adore them with God like worship but by them to reverence the Souldiers and Champions of Christ The faithfull then used the sign of the Crosse in all their Conversations painted it on the portal of all the houses of the faithfull gave their blessing to the people with their hand by the signe of the Crosse imployed it to drive away evill spirits proposed in Jerusalem the very Crosse to be adored on good Friday Finally the Church held then that to the Catholick Church onely belongs the keeping of the Apostolicall tradition the Authority of interpretation of Scripture and the decision of Controversies of faith and that out of the succession of her communion of her Doctrine and her ministery there was neither Church nor Salvation Neither will I insist with you onely upon the word then but before and before and before that even to the first age of all will I shew you our doctrine of the reall presence and holy Sacrifice of the Masse Invocation of Saints Veneration of Reliques and Images Confession and Priestly absolution Purgatory and prayer for the dead Traditions c. In the fift Age or hundred of years Saint Augustine was for the reall and corporall presence In the fourth Age Saint Ambrose In the third Age Saint Cyprian In the second Age or hundred of years S. Irenaeus And in the first Age Saint Ignatius Martyr and Disciple of Saint John the Evangelist Concerning the honour and invocation of Saints In the fifth Age we find Saint Augustine praying to the Virgin Mary ond other Saints In the fourth Age we find Greg. Naz. praying to S. Basil the great In the third Age we find S. Origen praying to Father Abraham In the second Age Justin Martyr And in the first age in the Liturgy of S. James the lesse For the use and veneration of holy Reliques and Images and chiefly of the Holy Crosse in the fifth age Saint Augustine In the fourth Age Athanasius In the third Age Origen In the second Age St. Justin Martyr And in the first Age S. Ignatius Concerning Confession and Absolutions In the fifth Age S. August In the fourth Age S. Basil the Great In the third Age S. Cypr. In the second Age Tertull. And in the first Age S. Clement Now concerning Purgatory and Prayer for the dead in the fifth Age S. Augustin In the fourth Age S. Ambrose In the third Age S. Cypr. In the second Age Tertull. And in the first Age S. Clement e. Concerning Traditions in the fifth Age S. Aug. In the fourth Age S. Basil In the third Age S. Epiphanins In the second Age S. Irenaeus And in the first Age S. Dennis Now suppose that all these quotations be right The saving of a soul of your own soul of the soul of a King of the souls of so many Kingdoms and the gaining of that Kingdome for a reward which in comparison of these Earthly ones for which you so often fight so much strive and labour so much for to obtain your tetrarchate would be a gain for you to lose it so that you might but obtain that would be worth the search and when you have found them to be truly cited I dare trust your judgement that it will tell you that we have not changed our Countenance nor fled our Colours nor fallen away nor altered our Religion nor forsaken our first Love nor denyed our Principles nor brought Novelties into the Church but that we doe antiquum obtinere whereby we should be forsaken of you for forsaking our selves but rather that we should win you unto us by being still the same we were when we won you first unto us and were at the beginning And is it for the honour of the English Nation famous for the first Christian King and the first Christian Emperour to forsake her Mother Church so renowned for antiquity and to annex their Religion as a codicell to an appeal of a company of Protesters against a decree at Spira and to forsake so glorious a name as Catholick and to take a name upon them wherein they had neither right nor interest and then to take measure of the Scottish Discipline for the new fashion of their souls and to
point at takes upon him to refell that which some others answer in the behalf of Beza but never takes notice of this which Beza hath said in his own behalf But the Marquesse returns to Luther and besides other things which he objects against him but proves only by the testimony of his adversaries or by such pieces of Luthers own Works as I have not liberty to peruse he taxeth him for giving such opprobrious termes to King Henry 8. Ans It is true K. Hen. 8. having written or at least some other in his name against Luther and his Doctrine Luther did return answer so as to shew but small respect to the person against whom he wrote But afterwards Luther in an Epistle which he wrote to the King confessed his fault humbly craving pardon and offering to write a publike recantation and to do the King honour if he should require it Indeed the King not answering Luthers expectation but instead of accepting his submission setting forth another book against him with his Epistle annexed to it and insulting over him as if he had recanted his doctrine Luther made answer to this book also yet so as to abstain from those terms of contumely and reproach which before he had used only shewing that he was firm and stedfast in his doctrine yea daily more and more confirmed in it and that no mans person how great soever he were should be of any esteem with him so as to bring him to any recantation in that respect The Marquesse having censured some of the prime Doctors of the Reformed Churches falls to censure the people as being generally averse from all honesty and godlines and to this end he all eadgeth the words of Luther and some others who complain of the vitious and corrupt wayes of those that live under the pure preaching of the Gospel and he concludes How could the people be better when their Ministers were so bad Bellarmine urging also some of these testimonies proceeds so farre in his censure as to say that though among them of the Church of Rome for that he means by the Catholike Church there be many bad yet among Protestants whom after his manner he terms Hereticks there is none good and this he saith is notorious But if both Ministers and people were bad as their adversaries pretend yet might their doctrine and profession be good for all that It was the Apostles complaint in his time All seek their own not the things that are Jesus Christs Phil. 2. 21. Yet the doctrine of Jesus Christ which they preached and professed was never a whit the worse for all this though with some it might be worse accounted of In like manner the Prophets frequently complain of the people of the Jews whose Religion neverthelesse was the only true Religion in the world See Isa 1. 4 5 6. Jer. 5. 1. 2. 9. 2. c. Ezek. 22. 2. c. and so many other places And that the Protestant doctrine is not to blame what ever the Preachers and professors of it be may appear by those very testimonies which the Marquesse and other alledge For in that as they shew Ministers tax and reprove people for being so bad it argues that the doctrine delivered unto them is good though they make no good use of it But that Protestants are so universally bad as that Bellarmine should say there is none good among them is too grosse an aspersion and wondrous impudence it is to adde that this is notorious to all that know them I will only cite the testimony of Bodinus one that never withdrew himself for any thing I finde from communion with the Church of Rome He speaking of Geneva where Calvin and Beza were Ministers of the Gospel exceedingly commends the discipline there used Then which he saith nothing could be imagined greater and more divine for the restraining of mens lusts and those vices which by humane Laws and Judgements could no way be reformed Insomuch that no whoredomes no drunkennesse no dancings no beggars no idle persons are found in that City But to proceed the Marquesse in the conclusion of all that he hath in this kinde relates horrible things of Calvin in respect both of his life and death alleadging that they are written by two knowne and approved Protestant Authors One of these Authors whose words the Marquesse alleadgeth was indeed a Protestant but a great Lutheran to wit Schlusselberg and a professed adversary unto Calvin and I presume so also was the other who the Marquesse saith did write the life of Calvin and confirme that which is said by the former to wit Herennius though I have not heard of him before Mr. Breerley so far as I finde never mentions him though he make very frequent use of Schlusselberg whose words concerning Calvin here cited by the Marquesse he all eadgeth in two several places of his Apology But however Bolsecus is the man from whom at first did proceed whatsoever any have in disgrace of Calvin either for his life or death Now this Author lived some while at Geneva where Calvin was and being opposed by him it seems for some things which he could not approve he both became Calvins bitter enemy and also turned back to Popery and was a Papist at that very time when he wrote of Calvin as is confessed by Mr. Breerley who saith that therefore he doth purposely forbear to urge his testimony in which respect also it may be the Marquesse made no mention of this Author because he would not seem in this case to alleadge any of their own Church But to what porpose is it that they forbear to cite Bolsecus when as they cite those who have nothing in this kinde but from Bolsecus He was the first and for some while the only man that did traduce Calvin as concerning his life and death And therefore Bellarmine as writing before those whom Mr. Breerley and the Marquesse mention alleadgeth only Bolsecus as relating things that concerne Calvin of this nature But if Mr. Breerley and so other Romanists could think there was just cause to except against the testimonies of Benno and others concerning Pope Hildebrand called Gregory 7. alleadging that they were his adversaries and took part with the Emperour against him though yet Benno was a Cardinal and the rest were all Romanists what candour and ingenuity is there to alleadge against Calvin the testimonies of those who did professe themselves adversaries unto him Besides that Bolsecus the first deviser of these calumnies was one of their own party For the things that are objected That concerning the manner of Calvins death appears most false by what Beza hath written of it who being with Calvin at Geneva when he dyed had more cause to know the truth then Bolsecus who was removed I think from Geneva before that time And the other particular about Calvins being stigmatized is clearly
by Hierome came to be Pope there was such a conflict betwixt him and Urscicinus about it that in one day there were found in a Church 137. dead bodies of those that were slaine in the conflict This is related by Ammianus Marcellinus who lived in the same time when this happened And though he were no Christian yet that he did not write thus out of any ill affection towards Christians and a desire to disgrace them may appear as by that ingenuity and impartiality which he elsewhere usually shews in his history so by this that in this very place he much commends other Bishops of meaner places and saith that the Bps. of Rome might have been happy indeed if they would have imitated them and despising the greatnesse of the City would have lived sparingly and carried themselves humbly as other Bishops of the Roman Provinces did But so also for the same reason to wit the honour and dignity of Rome the Bishop thereof had some priviledge and preheminencie above others And so the first Councel of Constantinople decreed that the Bishop of Constantinople should have the second place to wit next after the Bishop of Rome because it was new Rome And afterwards the Councel of Chalcedon which was the fourth general Councel as that of Constantinople was the second for the very same reason confirmed the same plainly expressing thus much that because Rome had been the seat of the Empire therefore the Fathers had given the chief honour to the Bishop of that City and that now Constantinople being advanced to that honour Constantine having removed his seat thither it was meet that the Bishop of that place should likewise be advanced so as to be next to the Roman Bishop Thus it plainly appears even by this very Councel which the Marquesse alleadgeth that the dignity of the Bishop of Rome is built meerly upon humane authority and earthly consideration Neither doth Hierom attribute such supereminencie as is pretended to Damasus the Roman Bishop but being in the Eastern parts which were much infected with Arianisme and knowing that Damasus was free from that infection he consulted him about a point wherein he feared lest some Arians in the East might ensnare him But that Hierome did not hold the Bishop of Rome to be supereminent by divine Law is clear and evident by what he wrote to Evagrius namely this Wheresoever a Bishop is whether at Rome or at Eugubium whether at Constantinople or at Rhegium whether at Alexandria or at Tanis he hath the same merit and the same Priesthood The power of riches and the meannesse of poverty doth not make a Bishop either higher or lower but they are all the successours of the Apostles The Marquesse goes on saying In the Church then the Service was said throughout the East in Greek and throughout the West as well in Africa as in Europe in Latine although that in none of the Provinces except in Italy and the Cities where the Roman Colonies resided the Latine tongue was understood by the common people That divine Service should be performed in a tongue which the people understand not is most repugnant both to reason and Scripture The Apostle 1 Cor. 14. plainly and fully declares against it and shews the absurdity of it For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men but unto God for no man understandeth him v. 2. Now brethren if I come unto you speaking with tongues viz. unknown tongues what shall I profit you v. 6. And even things without life giving sound whether pipe or harp except they give a distinction in the sounds how shall it be known what is piped or harped v. 7. For if the Trumpet give an uncertain sound who shall prepare himself to the battell v. 8. So likewise you except ye utter by the tongue words easie to be understood how shall it be known what is spoken for ye shall speak into the aire v. 9. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice I shall be unto him that speaketh a Barbarian and he that speaketh shall be a Barbarian unto me v. 11. Else when thou shalt blesse in the spirit how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest v. 16. In the Church I had rather speak five words with my understanding that by my voice I might teach others also then ten thousand words in an unknown tongue v. 19. The case here is so clear that Cardinal Cajetan in his Commentary upon the place is forced to confesse That by this doctrine of the Apostle it is better for the edification of the people that publick prayers be made in a tongue which both the Clergy and the people understand then that they be in Latine And hereupon also he expresseth his dislike of the use of Organs and of chanting in Divine Service and saith that it were better such musical melody were laid aside and that Divine Service were so performed as that people might understand it Austine indeed shews that in his time and Country the Latine tongue was used in Divine Service but withall he shews that the people did understand it though they were not very Grammatical and exact in it And therefore sometimes barbarous words were permitted because the people were acquainted with them and understood them better then pure Latine words For this reason he saith in that place which the Marquesse citeth that floriet was used for florebit that is shall flourish And so elsewhere he saith that he would rather use the word ossum for a bone then os chusing rather to be reproved by Grammarians then that the people should not understand him And that the Latine tongue was then generally understood by the people where he lived is most evident also by that which he writeth in his Confessions to wit that though he had very much ado to learn the Greek tongue yet the Latine he learnt without difficulty even whilst his Nurse and others played with him and because he heard none speak any other Language The Marquesse to prove still that the Church of Rome is not changed but is the same that it was of old mentioneth divers things which the Church then he saith observed as distinction of Feasts and ordinary dayes c. 1. These are things of an inferiour alloy in comparison of many things wherein Protestants charge the Church of Rome to be altered from what of old it was 2. The same things might be observed of old yet not in the same manner as now in the Church of Rome they are viz. so as to place the worship of God in such things So they now do which makes Ferus though one of their own Authors cry out Behold our stupidity and perversenesse And again O preposterous Religion 3. If Protestants have abolished such things besides that they might lawfully do it God in
2. Albus an ater sis nescio Solet dici de homine vehementer ignoto Eras Adag cent 6. adag 99. Obj. Answ Obj. Answ Obj. * It is misprinted can damn us Answ Unde colligimus peccatum originale morbum quidem esse qui tamen per se culpabilis non est nec damnationis poenam inferre potest c. donec homo contagione hâc corruptus Legem Dei transgreditur quod tum demum fieri consuevit cum Legem sibi positam videt intelligit Zuingl de Bap. tom 2 fol. 90. Some endeavor to excuse Zuinglius in this but I see not how he can be excused Bellar. de amis grat stat peccat lib. 5. cap. 7. Bellar. de grat primi hom cap. 5. Quarè non magis differt status hominis post lapsum Adae à statu ejusdem in puris naturalibus quà m differt spoliatus à nudo Proinde corruptio naturae non ex alicujus doni naturalis carentiâ neque ex alicujus malae qualitatis accessu sed ex solâ doni supernaturalis ob Adae peccatum amissione perfluxit Bell. ibid. Bell. ibid. Obj. Answ Num tanti momenti res haec est ut tantas turbas dissidia propter hanc excitare conveniat etiamsi par vulorum haptismus nullis omnino Scripturarum testimoniis inniteretur externum quiddam est ceremoniale quo ut aliis rebus exterâ—is ecclesin dignè honestè uti potest veliidem hoc omittere rite tollere quatenus ipsi ad aedificationem salutem omnium facere videtur Zuingl de Baptis tom 2. fol. 96. Baptismum in Circumcisionis locum successisse abundè satis demonstratum est Zuingl ibid. fol. 95. Prohibere ne baptismi signum infantes accipiant quid aliud est quà m eosdem à Christo repellere Ibid. fol. 86. Obj. Answ Idex toto illo tractatu constat Zuinglium in eâ sententia fuisse regna omnia esse electiva nulla proprie successiva haereditaria in quo non negamus eum errasse in facto ut loquintut contrarium enim nobis certum est sed vivebat ille in republicâ in quâ regnonorum jura non satis expenderat Hoc igitur posito fundamento existimavit eos ad quos jus electionis pertinebar illud sibi etiam reservasse ut si Rex vel Princeps electus non staret juramento suo sed reÌ„pub pessum ire sineret tyrannicè gubernaret tum etiam possent talem Principem deponere c. Quid mirum si ita senserit Helvetius c. Rivet Jes vap cap. 13. sect 8. Obj. Answ Cum lex homini est data semper peccat cum contra legem facit quamvis nec sit nec vivat nec operetur nisi in Deo ex Deo per Deum Sed quod Deus operatur per hominem homini vitio vertitur non etiam Deo hic enim sub lege est lile liber c. Unum igitur atque idem facinuâ— puta adulterium aut homicidium quantum Dei authoris motoris ac impulsoris opus est crimen non est quantum autem hominis est crimen ac foelus est Ille enim lege non tenetur hic autem lege etiam damnatur Zuing. de Provid tom 1. fol. 365. Permitto coactum esse c. Zuing. ibid. p. 366. Of Melancthons Doctrine Pag. 85. Obj. Answ Locorum Theologicorum postrema Editio absoluta anno 1545. Locorum Theologicorum postremn Editio absoluta Wittembergae anno 1543. Obj. Answ Vidimus etiam multos qui usitatas leges connubiorum ideò negligebant quod leguntur dissimilia veterum exempla de polygamiâ de conjugiis Jacobi qui duas sorores duxit Non est autem exemplis sed legibus judicandum in hâc tantâ re considerentur praecepta divina Certissimum est legem conjugii primam ita sancitam esse ut unius maris unius foeminae conjunctio esset Filius Dei nos ad primam institutionem retrahit c. Melancth tom 1 fol. 339. Obj. Answ To this purpose doth the Marquesse himself cite Mr. Bancroft page 203. Of Andraeas Musculus his doctrine Page 86. Answ Pag. 86. c. The divisions of Protestants Page 87. Answ Sir Edward Sand's Europae Spec. p. 23. c. Of the unity that is in the Church of Rome Page 202. 203. Page 204. 205. Page 114. c. Paul and his writings censured by the Jesuits and others of the Church of Rome Reasoning about matter of Religion not suffered in the Church of Rome nor scarce to talk of it Bellarmine and such like Writers scarce to be found in Italy Page 87 c. In his Advertisement Of Luther's conference with the Devil Luth. de Missprivat unct sacerdot tom 7. fol. 228 c. Aug. Confess lib. 9. cap. 8. Verum quidem est quòd mendax sit sc diabolus sed ejus mendacia non sunt simplicis artficis sed longè callidiora instructiora ad fallendum quaÌ„ humanus animus assequi possit Ipse sic adoritur ut apprehendat aliquam solidam veritatem quae negari non potest atque eam adeò callidè astutè urget acuit adeò speciose fucat suum mendacium ut fallat vel cautissimos Uti cogitatio illa quae Judae cor percussit vera erat Tradidi sanguinem justum hoc Judas negare non poterat Sed hoc erat mendacium Ergo est desper andum de gratia Dei Et tamen diabolus hoc mendacium hanc cogitationem tam violenter ursit ut Judas eam vincere non posset sed desperaret Proinde bone frater domine Papista non mentitur Satan quando accusat aut urget magnitudinem peccati c. Sed ibi mentitur Satan quando ultra urget ut desperem de gratia c. Confessus quidem sum lege Dei convictus coram diabolo me peccasse me damnatum esse ut Judam Sed verto me ad Christum cum Petro c. Luth. loc citat fol. 230. Breerl. Apol. pag. 741. Quid tunc egisti Deus meus Unde curasti Unde sanasti Nonne protulisti durum acutum ex alterâ animâ convitium tanquam medicinale ferrum ex occultis provisionibus tuis uno ictu putredinem illam praecidisti Illa enim irata exagitare appetivit minorem dominam non sanare c. At tu Domine rector coelitum terrenorum ad usus tuos contorquens profunda torrentis fluxum seculorum ordinans turbulentum etiam de alterius animae in saniâ sanasti alteram Aug. Confess lib. 9. cap. 8. Pag. 88. Answ Zuinglius vindicated Hîc ergò nonnullorum infirmitate abusa adversariorum improbitas Zuinglium iniquissimum belli authorem violentum pacis publicae turbatorem fingit c. Duo itaque hîc nobis agenda veniunt primum quòd Zuinglius nec belli author fuerit nec violento gladio immanis barbari militis instar in aciem