Selected quad for the lemma: religion_n
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A80418
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A coole conference between the Scottish commissioners cleared reformation, and the Holland ministers apologeticall narration, brought together by a well-willer to both.
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1644
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Wing C6045; Thomason E35_15; ESTC R19126
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16,004
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18
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A COOLE CONFERENCE Between the Scottish Commissioners Cleared Reformation and the Holland Ministers Apologeticall Narration brought together by a well-willer to both 1644. REformat Whilest we the meanest of many c. wait for uniformity in Religion so much desired by all the Godly in the three Kingdoms unto which an entrance is made by a solemn League and Covenant Apologet. We approve worthy brethren your expectation as just and confesse our own desires of it so as Reformation be not taken indebite in a strict stinted sence but according to your latitude expressed pag. 15. We are say you neither so ignorant nor so arrogant as to ascribe to the Church of Scotland it s your own phrase such absolute purity and perfection as hath not need or cannot admit of further Reformation So you A golden peace signifying speech as if dropped from the mouth of some Chrysostome or conceived by some Ireneus pluck you that end and we the other likewise and we shall be fastned with a Cordian knot Of which our endeavour you have a full testimony in our League and Covenant wherein we swear to indeavour the preservation of the reformed Religion in Scotland we say of Religion and Reformed is or shall be and till further reformation we will preserve it against our common enemie that you be not made to retreat from that you have wonne And that we will indeavour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdoms of England and Ireland in doctrine worship discipline and government according to the Word of God the example of the best reformed Churches So farre the Covenant Wherein it is as evident as if written with a Sunne beame that the Churches of England have not ingaged themselves to come down to you or do bind you to come to us but the common rendevous where we must all meet is the best refâ—â—â—ed Churches and that according to the word of God which is that Standard of perfection that must weigh and measure out unto us our uniformity Reformat We find our selves bound against the prejudices and mistakings of some who in the dark are afraid of that which they know not and suffer their affections of love and hatred to run before their understanding and against the mis-representations and indirect aspersions of others who do so commend their own way that the reformed Churches thereby suffer disparagement to give that testimony unto the order and government of the reformed Churches and particularly of the Church of Scotland which they do well deserve Apologet. Ah deare brethren why would ye speak thus Do these expressions in the judgement of candor suit with your profession pag. 2. where you promise that you indeavour nothing but a simple and innocent manifestation and defence without desire or intention to give the smallest offence to any who fear God love the truth and c. So you Let an impartiall Angel speak whether multitudes of gracious hearts are not justly offended at this bitternesse so unseasonably administred and applied too to wrong parties Ah how easie is it by our self-mistasting hearts like the sorry Artificer that makes two cracks whiles he is patching and hammering up one rather to cause prejudices then cure them You may be confident let all the world look upon the Apologie and judge that the five Members of the Assembly cast no prejudices upon you to whom you have so hastily replied And for private barkings of inconsiderate and inconsiderable men they are either unknown or un-owned as is supposed by men of your gravitie All wise men generally are silently intentive expecting not paper replyes but disputed Positions from the Assembly grounded on Scripture And therefore this paper comes abroad onely to beseech that on either side there may be committed no more breaches of the peace Ecclesiastick and to leave the Apologie if it may be under the same candid opinion that rayed forth upon it afore this cloud came and interposed Sure if the Houses of So the Ordinance for the Assembly p. 5. Parliament allow any of the Assembly differing in opinion touching the matters proposed to them whereof Discipline is one to present their judgements with their reasons unto the said Houses you cannot judge it a crime to send forth a prodromum presented to the Parliament to tell them and you how farre they close with you and other reformed Churches and dissent from the Separation and Brownists And therefore have not deserved to be whipt with a reply Pardon the phrase for indeed it is a smart stroke upon the spirits of understanding men and standing forth in and for a publick Ecclesiasticall cause to be taxed for those who in the dark are afraid of that which they know not and to suffer their affections c. to run before their understanding c. Sweet brethren do you call your books frequent among us the government of the Church of Scotland the Assertion of your government the peaceable Plea darknesse Or do you think that the Elders of the Quinque Ecclesiae or others that study Discipline to be dark Are we not morall men voluntas vult ut intellectus intelligit to understand first and affect after Or wherein hath appeared this preposterousnesse towards you whiles the Apologie smiles upon you and sweetly cals you and Holland by name the more reformed Churches Apol p 6. do you give them one such a kind word in all your Reply And more then that you call not your selves confessing a need of further Reformation as we noted and quoted afore If then they have commended your Churches according to your own judgements of your selves how hath their commendation of other Churches appeared to discommend yours especially whiles they commend not their own for so perfect but that they found a necessity of holding this for one of their three rules by which they walked in these words Not to make our present judgement and practise a Apol. p. 10. 11. binding law unto our selves for future which we likewise made continuall profession of upon all occasions We had too great an instance of our own frailty in the former way of conformity and therefore in a jealousie of our selves we kept this reserve which we made open and constant professions of to alter and retract though not lightly what ever should be discovered to be taken up out of a misunderstanding of the rule So far the Apolog. There is yet one thing more that makes the Apologists more confident of their candor in that it received so great an approbation from so pious and learned a man of your judgement and a Member of the Assembly As on the other side though the Assembly voted you thanks yet was it onely for the books you gave them not for the Reply as it was expresse to that effect in the vote if observation fail not Reformat pag. 2. Our wayes since our coming into this Kingdom have been and so farre as the truth will suffer us ever shall be
and interpose his authoritie for strengthning thâ— sentence of Non communion Apolog. There is not one word in the Apologies discourse of this point to extenuate the power of Synods which being according to the Scriptures they hold them in the highest esteeme that ever the Scripture advanced them to And on the other side they there give us an expresse that besides the said exhortations protestations and Non communion that they professe themselves ever to submit and also to be most willing to have recourse to the civill Magistrate interposing a power of another nature upon his particular cognizance and examination of such causes Reformat pag. 21. 22. To the said objection we answer 1 for there are 5 answers by way of direct confutation that this objection supposeth a case which hath not been found in the Church of Scotland for the space of eightie yeers and beleeve was never heard of in any of the Reformed Churches except those of the Separation the pronouncing of Non communion or Excommunication against a whole Church Our Excommunication hath been executed but seldome against particular members never against a whole Church and we think never shall be and therefore this imaginarie fear of that which never falleth out is not considerable rules are made for ordinarie and usuall cases Apolog. Who that have seriously read and weighed the Apologie and therein their disclaiming of the Separation properly so called their owning the Churches of Scotland and many in England for true Churches their just account of their practise in Holland and their proceedings towards the Church mistaking would after all this call the Apologizers Churches Churches of the Separation unlesse withall they exprest they meant Separation from the Prelates wayes as Scotland and England now do But what ever true Churches be named we see no reason though others beleeve quod factum non est nec fieri potest that which never hath been never shall be but that they may be incident and liable to fall into that case of having to do with a whole particular Church erring especially till those swarmes of Anabaptists Antinomians c. which have been so oft intimated and sounded in our eares be allayd You brethren your selves suppose more and therefore you may suppose the lesse For in your second answer to this objection as you call it you suppose that two or more Churches may mutually protest and pronounce the sentence of non communiâ—â— one against another In which case say you pronouncing of non comâ—â—â—ion would prove rather a meane of division then of union and there wouâ—d be no remedy where the censure is mutuall to compose this difference unlesse there be a common Presbytery or Synod made up of the whole To which we answer that this case hath befallen Provinces and National prelaticall Churches in matter of Excommunication too each of them having a severall Pope in them have excommunicated one another And we see not that antidote in one of the wayes you mention namely a Classicall Provinciall Presbytery but that one provinciall Presbytery may protest against and excommunicate the other For the other way for you propound two and we are willing to take the best namely a Nationall Synod gathered and guided according to the Scriptures we willingly embrace And they that will not take the judgement of such a Synod having no Scripture to alledge justly against their resolutions let them fall into the hands of the Magistrate the Preserver of the publick peace This same reply serves to your third and fourth answer We need adde but a word in reply to your fifth answer wherein you demand by what probability it can be made to appear to any rationall man and indifferent mind that no authoritie shall be as valid as authoritie against the obstinate that Via admonitionis requisitionis is equall with Via citationis publicae authoritatis To which we answer that if it be stated that that is authoritie which is Scripture authoritie and not else and that to be most valid that convinceth and conquers actus elicitos the mind rather then that which doth onely manacle and constraine actus imperatâ—s the outward carriage the demand is soon answered Is the way of admonition protestation and non communion no authoritie Is that no authoritie that tels us we must give no offence Better a milstone were hanged about ones neck and he cast into the Sea then to offend a weaker brother That we were better not eat flesh then to offend c. Or is it no authoritie when a whole Church after fasting and prayer and clear disputation shall tell the obstinate erring that upon those grounds they will withdraw from them as from Heathens and Publicans The truth is that the prelaticall men have made much use of this your case alledged to plead for Bishops as most necessarie to keep Churches in union But Gods authoritie held forth to us in the judgements of Nationall Synods according to the Word will prove more effectuall then any humane instituted way whatsoever to unite Churches Reformat pag. 24. The other objection is that by this authoritie and order of government one Church hath power over another which is contrarie to that libertie and equalitie Christ hath endewed his Churches with and is no other but a nâ—w prelaticall dominion set over the Churches of Christ To this say you we answer 1 That we are far from imposing any such câ—llâ—terall power The power which we maintain is aggregative of the Offiâ—ers of many Congregations over the particular members in which as in the naturall and politick body one member is not subject to another but is to the whole 2 It is say you a miserable mistake to compare Presbyteries and Prelates together For the Courts of Prelates are altogether fâ—rrain and extrinsecall in the Congregations over which they rule But the power of Presbyteries is intrinsecall and naturall they being constitute of the Pastors and Elders of the particular Congregations â—ver which they are set So that another without themselves doth not bear rule over them but all of them by common consent do rule over every one which is no more then â—â—r a membâ—â—â—f a particular Congregation to be ruled by his own particular Eldâ—â—ship Fâ—r they disâ—ern no sentence of excommunication of any member without the knowledge and consent of the particular Congregation that is particularly concerned therein Apolog. You say you impose nâ—t a collaterall power Sure your laws do impose that one congregation shall be subject to the Elders suppose of twenty congregations And the authority of 19 of them is as â—â—llaterall The congregations every one chose their own officers to rule over themselves in the Lord. But we heare not you say that they chose their Officers to rule over themselves and others though we hear you say that the Officers themselves are readie enough to consent so to rule which is as extrinsecall as Episcopacie if Episcopacie be as intrinsecall as Presbyterie For are not Bishops chosen by the people at their instalment where customarily people are allowed to make any just exception and hath in part been practised in England though with little successe in their domineering times Just as anciently as Hieronimus tels us Vnus eligebatur qui caeteris preponoretur c. To avâ—id schisme one of the classâ—â—all Presbytery was chosen to be as Chaiâ—-man over them all in their Consistorie who from being so annually at last became so for his life time and so hence was born Episcopacy Besides we know that the Bishop and his Chaplains Chancellour Archdeacon Register c. were parishioners within their own Diocesse if not Elders or Officers in their severall congregations And people formerly have been as willing they should reigne as ever any people were in your Kingdom to have the Presbyterie over them And the Bishops on the other side did as cunningly comply with the Congregations they grounding their Court proceedings upon the Church-wardens or Parish Elders presentments upon the peoples complaints and testimony and did not passe an Excommunication without the subscription of the hand of a Minister or two of that Archdeaconrie or Countie-Presbyterie and last of all the Excommunication was not pronounced without the consent of the Minister of the particular Congregation So that it is clear it is not peoples consent onely but if according to the Word that makes a government lawfull God hath chalked out to us patterns of people chusing Officers for the congregation And congregations chusing men for Synods or Councels but not as we conceive of chusing men to make a middle classicall Presbyterie What ever plausible shews of reason may seem to commend a way yet onely Gods way shall have the blessing of God upon it And if it cannot be resolved on all hands as yet clearly which is it let that your golden speech be written upon all your actions That thâ—se that are mâ—st averse to ☜ Reform p. 26. Presbytery if they allow no materiall difference in doctrine worship or practise might injâ—y their peace and all comforts of their Ministery and profession under it without controlment of that authoritative power which they so much apprehend We have been of late made to fear the contrary by the reports of some not of meanest rank of your own Nation but now we desire rather to hope upon your words here given under your own hands then fear by reason of theirs Trusting also that as you were kindly invited to our Assembly so you will be as helpfull to our poore Churches as your Armies by Godâ— blessing are like to be the Common-wealth according as both Nations have vowed to indeavour the reformation of Religion in the Kingdoms of England and Ireland in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government according to the Word of God 〈◊〉 p. 26. We crave leave to conclude with your own words hoping we may as confidently speak them as you did namely That so much for the present have we said not for confutation but meerly for justifying our own and other reformed Churches against such mis-representings and mistakings as in matters of Religion are too frequent in this place aâ— this time c. FINIS