it me with such evidence as may make it indeed my own The Lord Unite us by Truth Love and Humility Amen Septemb. 1. 1673. Richard Baxter THE CONTENTS PART I. WHat is the Protestants Religion and what the Papists pag. 1. Chap. 1. The occasion of the Conference with an humbling consideration to staggerers ibid. Chap. 2. The Conditions of the Conference p. 6. Chap. 3. What is the Religion of the Protestants Of the name Protestant The Augustane and other Confessions The thirty nine Articles The Essentials of Christianity to be distinguished from the Integrals and Accidentals p. 9. Chap. 4. What is the Papists Religion out of Veron Davenport c. p. 25. PART II. Fourteen Principles in which the Papists and Protestants seem agreed by which the Protestant Religion is by the Papists confessed and maintained to be all true p. 40. PART III. Twenty five Charges against Popery enumerated to be all in order proved as Reasons why no one that hath Religion or Sense and Reason should turn Papist p. 61. PART IV. The first Charge made good viz. against Transubstantiation In which Popery is fully proved to be the shame of Humane Nature contrary to SENSE REASON SCRIPTVRE and TRADITION or the Judgement of the antient and the present Church devised by Satan to expose Christianity to the Scorn of Infidels p. 75. Chap. 1. The first Reason to prove that there is Bread after the Consecration from the certainty of the Intellects Perception by the means of sense ibid. Twenty Reasons against the denying of common senses p. 77. Chap. 2. The Papists Answers to all this confuted p. 88. Chap. 3. The second Argument against Transubstantiation from the contradictions of it p. 96. Chap. 4. The third Argument from the certain falshood of their multitudes of feigned Miracles in Transubstantiation Thirty one Miracles in it enumerated with Twenty aggravations of those Miracles p. 99. Chap. 5. The Minor proved viz. That these Miracles are false or feigned p. 110. Chap. 6. Arg. 4. Transubstantiation contrary to the express Word of God p. 117. Chap. 7. Arg. 5. All these Miracles are proofless yea the Scripture abundantly directeth us otherwise to expound This is my Body p. 123. Chap. 8. Arg. 6. Transubstantiation nullifieth the Sacrament p. 128. Chap. 9. The Novelty of Transubstantiation as contrary to the faith of the antient Christians And the singularity contrary to the Judgement and Tradition of most of the Christian world p. 132. Chap. 10. The second part of the Controversie That it is not Christs very flesh and blood into which the Bread and Wine is turned p. 146. Chap. 11. The Conclusion The Scandal of our difference removed Whether the falshood of one Article prove the Papists foundation false Whether it do so by the Protestants Whether Papists have any more Infallibility than others The necessity of discerning the Essentials of Christianity The distinction of Explicite and Implicite faith considered How come so many Princes Nobles Learned men and whole Nations to be Papists All Christians besides Papists are of one Church though of many opinions How come so many among us at home of late inclinable to Popery What hope of Concord with the Papists How to help them off their Councils Snares in the point of Transubstantiation Of their denying the Cup to the Laity p. 152. Reader I Hope the Printers Errata are not many and I am discouraged from gathering them because I see men had rather err themselves and calumniate the Author than take notice of them So hath Mr. Danvers done by me in a Book against Infant Baptism where as an Introduction to abundance of mistakes in History he abuseth his Reader by several scraps of a Book of mine so curtail'd as to be insufficient to signifie the sense And among them feigneth me to write Chr. Direct p. 3. pag. 885. l. 13. to Institute Sacraments as that which man may do instead of Nor to Institute Sacraments and so maketh his credulous flock to believe that I assert that very thing which I write against Though the place was markt with a Star in the Errata and the Reader desired specially to Correct it But such dealing is now grown so common with such men that we must bear it as the effect of their disease PART I. What is the Protestants Religion and what the Papists CHAP. I. The occasion of the Conference D. SIR I am come to crave your help in a matter of great importance to me I was bred a Protestant but the Discourses of some Roman Catholicks have brought me into great doubts whether I have not been all this while deceived And though I cannot dispute the case my self with you I desire you to dispute it in my hearing with a Catholick Priest whom I shall bring to you R. With all my heart But let me first ask you a few Questions Quest 1. Did you ever understand what the Protestants Religion is D. I take it to be the 39 Articles Liturgie and Government of the Church of England R. No wonder if you be easily drawn to doubt of that Religion which you no better understand Can you hold it and not know what it is Quest 2. Do you know what it is to be a Christian D. It is to believe in Christ and to Love and obey Him Our Baptism is our Christening R. Very true And in your Baptism you are Dedicated and Vowed to God the Father Son and Holy Ghost renouncing the Lusts of the Flesh the World and the Devil Quest 3. And have you been a true Christian and lived according to this Vow Have you obeyed God more than the desires of your flesh Have you preferred the Kingdom of Heaven before all the pleasures honours and riches of this world Have you sincerely submitted to the healing saving Doctrine Law and example of Christ and to the sanctifying motions of his Holy Spirit And have you lived soberly righteously and Godlily in the world and made it your care and business to deny your self and mortifie all fleshly inordinate desires as it is the care of sensual men to gratifie them D. I have had my faults as all men have but I hope none can say but I have lived honestly towards all And if I have been faulty in drinking sports or gaming it hath been to no ones injury but my own R. I ask you not whether you are a sinner For so are all men But whether you are a truly Penitent Converted sinner and whether yet you are true to your Baptismal Vow and Covenant Can your Conscience say that you Love and Trust and obey God and your Redeemer before all the world and that you love not Pleasure Riches and Honour more than God and Holiness and Heaven and that it is more of the care and business of your life to Know and Love and serve God better and to make sure of your salvation than to please your flesh or prosper in the world In a word Do you heartily and in
are less doubtful and resolved into a conceded Principle PART II. The Principles which Papists and Protestants are agreed in And therein the full â—ustification of all the Protestants Religion THe first common Principle That we are Men having Reason and Free-will and Sense whose Natural way of knowing things sensible is by the perception of our senses having no way of greater Certainty R. I take it for a common principle that we are Men having Reason and Free-will and Sense whose natural way of Knowing things sensible is by the perception of our senses And therefore that our rightly constituted or sound senses with their due media about their proper objects are to be trusted being either certain or we have no certainty P. I know what you intend I grant it as you express it R. It must then be granted us that there is true Bread and Wine in substance remaining after the words of the Mass-Priests consecration P. Yes When you can prove that the consecrated Bread and Wine are the proper objects of sense which we deny they being not now Bread and Wine R. Is it by the Perception of sense that you deny it or by other means P. No It is by Faith and Reason which are above Sense R. Now you come to deny the Principle which you granted Sense is the perceiver of its own objects No Faith no Reason can perceive them but by sense And if due sensation perceive them and Faith deny them then Faith denyeth sense to be the proper natural perceiver of its objects and our judgement of things sensible to be such as must follow that perception But we must dispute of this anon and will not now anticipate it Only remember that if you deny sense which is the first Principle no mortal man is capable of disputing with you there being no lower principle to which we can have recourse and resolve our differences The second Principle That there is One only God Infinite in Being Power Wisdom and Goodness Our Owner Ruler and Chief Good Most Holy Just and True and therefore cannot lye but is absolutely to be believed and trusted and loved R. I need not repeat it Do you not Agree with us in this P. Yes Heathens that are sober and Christians are agreed in it R. You grant then that this may be known by them that are no subjects of the Pope Remember anon that we are not to be blamed for Believing God The third Principle That the whole frame of Nature within us and without us within our reach is the signal Revelation of God and his Will to man called Objectively The Light and Law of Nature R. I suppose that this also may pass for a common granted Principle P. Yes as you express it If we agree not of the Light and Law of Nature we come short of Infidels and meer Natural men R. Observe then that we are Justified by your principles for Believing and Trusting Gods Natural Revelation The very first part of which is made to our senses By Natural Evidence God sheweth us that Bread is Bread P. Yes when sense is sound and objects and media just and God doth not contradict sense by supernatural Revelation The fourth Principle That Natural Revelation is before supernatural and sense before faith and we are Men in order of Nature at least before we are Christians and the former is still presupposed to the later R. This also I suppose is a granted Principle P. It is so But see that you raise no false consequents from it R. I conclude from it that He that denyeth the perception of sense to be the certain way of Judging of things sensible denyeth all the Certainty of faith and subverteth the very foundations of it And that we are justified for our Assenting first to Gods Natural Revelations It is God that made my senses and understanding and God that made the object and media as Bread and Wine and therefore God deceiveth me if I be deceived in taking it for Bread and Wine after Consecration But God is to be believed in his first Revelations P. You vainly call Sensation and Intellection or Knowledge of things sensible by the name of Believing R. We will not vainly contend about the Name if we agree of the Thing But this leadeth me to another Principle The fifth Principle That the Knowledge of things fully sensible hath more quieting satisfying Evidence than our Belief of supernatural Revelations alone as made to us by a Prophet or Apostle And that where all the sound senses of all men living do agree about their near and proper sensible object there is the most satisfying Evidence of all R. I suppose that we are all agreed also in this principle P. As you word it we are For our Divines distinguish of Evidence and Certainty and are so far from saying that Faith hath more Evidence than Sense and Knowledge that it is ordinary with them to say that this is the difference between Faith and Knowledge and that faith hath not Evidence but yet it hath no less certainty R. Some men use words first to sport themselves out of their understandings and then to use others to the same game Evidence is nothing but the Perceptibility or Cognoscibility of a thing by which we call it Knowable which is the Immediate necessary qualification of an Object of Knowledge Certainty is either Objective which is nothing but this same Cognoscibility or Evidence as in a satisfying degree Or it is Subjective or Active which is nothing but the Infallible or True and quieting satisfactory knowledge of a Truth Where the Certainty of Object and Act concurr For no man can be certain of a lye or untruth For to be Certain is to be certain that it is True Those therefore would befool the world who would perswade men that a clear and confident perception of an untruth or confident error is Certainty There may be Objective Truth and Certainty of the Matter where there is not in us an Active or Subjective Certain Knowledge of it But there can be no Active Certainty of an Objective Vncertainty or certain Knowledge of a lye Now if you mean that faith hath Objective Certainty without Evidence of Certainty or Ascertaining Evidence that is but to say and unsay It hath Certainty and no Certainty For this Certainty and Evidence is all one But if you mean that Faith hath an Active Subjective Certainty without an Objective Certainty in the Matter you speak an impossibility and contradiction as if you said I clearly see a thing invisible or without light P. Do you think that our Divines knew not what they said when they say that to believe without Evidence maketh faith meritorious R. The old asserters of this meant the same that Christ meant when he saith to Thomas Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed There is a sensible Evidence and an Intelligible Evidence Faith hath not an Immediate sensible Evidence that is we believe
condemning backbiting reproaching and making odious if not persecuteing one another and shunning many of them the Communion of one another as they do the Papists This makes them think that they must seek some surer soberer way than any of us have yet found and the Papists set in and tell them All these are branches broken off from the true Vine and withered This it is to depart from the Catholick Church when they are once gone thence there is no stop or consistence till they crumble all to dust and atomes You must become Roman Catholicks or go mad You see to what confusion all others tend If you once leave our Church you will never know where to settle Which Sect will you be of If an Independant why not an Anabaptist If an Anabaptist why not an Antinomian How will you ever know which one of all these is in the right All this is easily answered by a man of understanding But to the ignorant Vulgar it seemeth unanswerable And alas how many have given them this scandal Wo be to some by whom offence cometh 6. But the Contentions of our Clergie advantage them more than the divisions of the people when we are of many interests and many parties and proceed to make each other contemptible and odious especially when we come to hinder each other from the work of our Ministry A house and Kingdom divided cannot stand Christ tells us that the Devil himself is not so foolish as to divide his Kingdom All our consent and best endeavour is too little to save mens souls from sin and error And when one part is cast by and each part by contention hindereth the other the Papists have the far easier work When one part are not to come within five miles of Cities or Corporations where Papists are and those that may come near them are too few and many too indisposed or negligent in resisting them so that we are all overdone by their Priests in constant diligence especially with the Greater rank of men with whom one part of our Ministers have almost as little inclination as opportunity to converse no wonder if the Roman work go on 7. And alas how great advantage have they made of our late calamitous Civil Wars and manifold scandalous Rebellions Though indeed it was the terrour of their murdering about two hundred thousand in Ireland of which see Bishop Jones Sir John Temple and the Earl of Orery against Welsh which frightened those that I was acquainted with out of their peace and almost out of their wits here in England yet dead men are not heard on Earth and their service for the King in England serveth not only for a Cloke for that but for an advantage against many that stand in their way In all Civil Wars if the Clergy be drawn in to own several Causes especially if they own an ill Cause who ever prevaileth Religion suffereth by it while one part of them are laid by or hindered by the other 8. And though God hath greatly obliged this Nation to thankfulness by preserving our Superiours so much from Popery as he hath done yet some of their names are injuriously abused to entice men to the Popish way as if it had so much countenance and patronage that Interest might invite them to it 9. And the World is lyable to changes and weary of holding long in one way The name of Antiquity especially in Religion is venerable with all but yet it is Novelty that pleaseth in the Matter And when Popery is to us a New way honoured with the name of The old Religion it is a taking bait 10. But the grand cause of all is the common peoples Ignorance as being ungrounded in their own Religion and their badness who measure all by carnal Interests and all our great and manifold sins by which we have forfeited Gods presence and his grace and provoked him to leave us to the shame and ruine of our own lusts and delusions to undoe our selves Great sins bring great plagues And most men are of their Religion who have the greatest interest in their estimation and affections or that have greatest advantage on them by constant nearness familiarity kindred kindness or power to do them good or hurt in the World And therefore to your question Why so many of late turn Papists I shall but now concludingly answer you as I begun with you concerning the Cause of your own doubts They that have long lived under the light of the holy Gospel and among the mercies which have blest this Land and yet have been sincerely no true Christians but loved their fleshly lusts and pleasures and their wealth and worldly honour more than God or holiness or Heaven it is no wonder that they easily change their party and can be in siding of any Religion who are in sincerity of none and if God forsake their understandings and give them up to senseless and unreasonable opinions who would not live according to the knowledge which they had nor obey the truth which was clearly opened to them And such hypocrites and perfidious rebels against Christ all Protestants do confess themselves to have been who turn Papists and know what they do Because they profess to go from a state of damnation into a Church out of which there is no salvation if the Popes judgement be as powerful in Heaven as it is at Rome D. But is there no hope of ending these lamentable differences and removing the scandal of Infidels hereby or at least of living together like Neighbours without seeking each others blood or ruine R. 1. Yes when God shall by his Providence take down the worldly Greatness and Advantages of the Papacy and level the King of Rome with the true Pastors of his Church and turn the usurping Monarch of all the World into a true Bishop that so worldly Power honour and wealth may not be stronger arguments with their party than Heaven and Hell and Gods commands Till then their Great twisted Interest is like to rule them and keep them in the errours into which it hath involved them Especially while their pretended Infallibility against all sense and reason is their strength which maketh them uncurable in any errour which they once embrace 2. But yet I did in the second Part of my Key for Catholicks long ago shew the terms on which we may live like neighbours if not like Christians if their principles would allow their minds to be but peaceable and give dissenters leave to live And I still profess that might we but secure our selves and our posterity I am none of those that would have the least injury much less cruelty exercised upon any man for being a Papist If they will live peaceably with me or but give me leave I will live peaceably with them And I doubt not but as there are some among them truly fearing God though corrupt with the errours of their education so there are more that are of kind and civil
truly believed that Christ was the Messiah They erred that thought it lawful to eat things offered to Idols and yet they erred not in believing in Christ No two men in the world its like have the same degree of personal faith and knowledge as I oft said before But if our professed object of faith that is Gods word were false in one thing we could not be sure that it were true in any thing Yet here I told you before 1. That a man may be much surer that one part of Scripture is Gods word than another because some Copies are doubtful in the diverse Readings of some particular words or sentences and which of them that so differ is Gods word we oft know not But so much as we are sure is the word of God we are sure is true So if the Authority of some few books was once doubted of as 2 Pet. Jam. Jud. Heb. c. and yet be by any it followeth not that they doubt of the truth of any which they know to be the word of God 2. Or if any do hold that the Penmen might be left to their natural fallibility in some by historical circumstances or words it would not follow that one Article of the Gospel or Christian faith is doubtful which is plainly as the Kernel of it delivered in all the Scripture and also by infallible Universal Tradition by it self in the Sacrament Creed Lords Prayer and Decalogue And our case also much differeth from the Papists in this For We profess that our objective faith Gods word is Infallible and we are Infallible so far as we believe it But we confess that we are lyable to misunderstand some parts of it and so far are fallible as being imperfect But the Papists say that their Pope and Councils and Universal Practicers are personally Infallible so as not to be lyable to any misunderstanding of any Article of faith say some or Article of Catholick faith say others And so they make their own Act of Believing to be Commensurate and equally certain with Gods word of faith and therefore they allow you to question them in all if they err in one as pretending to a gift of never erring in any D. But is it not a great reason to incline us to them rather than to you when They only pretend to Infallibility and You confess that you are all fallible in your Belief R. This is to be the subject of our next Conference and therefore not now to be anticipated only I shall tell you that It is a meer noise of ambiguous words to deceive the heedless that cannot search out the meaning of them 1. We not only Pretend but Profess and prove that our Christian Religion is altogether Infallible For which end I have written divers Treatises my self 2. And we profess that all the mystical Church of Christ that is all sincere Christians do truly and Infallibly believe all that is Essential to Christianity and as much of the Integrals as they can know 3. And we profess that the Catholick Church-Visible that is All professors of Christianity in the world do profess all these Essentials of Christianity and are Infallible in this profession But we hold withall that there is no particular Church or Bishop no Synod or Council that is so Infallible but that 1. They that hold to the Essentials may misunderstand and err about some Integrals 2. And those persons have no Certainty that they shall not err by Heresie or Apostacy from the Essentials themselves So that the Church is Infallible because it is essentiated by believing an Infallible Word which who ever believeth not ceaseth to be of the Church not Gods Word infallible because the Church or any number of men believe it or say Its true For Truth is before Knowledge and Faith As Aristotle was a Philosopher because he understood and taught the doctrine of real Philosophy and not that doctrine called Physicks or Philosophy because that Aristotle knew or taught it But alas What work shall I shew you when I come to open their bewildring uncertainties D. But to deal freely with you methinks their way of measuring out the Necessaries in Faith and Religion according to mens various parts and opportunities seemeth to me more satisfactory than yours who fix upon certain points as the Baptismal Covenant as Essentials For there is great diversity of mens Capacities R. This cometh from confounding several Questions as if they were all one 1. It is one Question What is the Christian Religion 2. ☞ It is another Question Whether the Christian Religion be absolutely necessary to the salvation of all those to whom it was never competently revealed 3. And it is another Question Whether more than the Essentials of Christian Religion be not necessary to the salvation of many who have opportunity to know more Alas what work doth Confusion make in the world To the first It is evident that as Mahometanism is a thing which may be defined so much more may Christianity Who that writeth of the several Religions of the world Ethnick Jewish Mahometan and Christian do not take them to be distinguishable and discernable Especially when Christ hath summed up Christianity into a Covenant and given it us in express words and affixed a flat promise of salvation to the true Covenanters and the Church hath ever called our Baptism our Christening Is Christianity Nothing If Something Why may it not be defined and differenced from all false Religions And if so It hath its Essential Constitutive parts All this is plain to Children that will see 2. And then as to the second question it concerneth not our Controversie at all It is but Whether any Infidels may be saved Or any that are no Christians And if it could be proved that any are saved that are no Christians do you thereby prove that they are Christians or members of the Christian Church or that Christianity is not a Religion which may be defined 3. And as to the third question We are on all sides agreed in it That they that have more than the naked Essentials of Christianity revealed to them aptly are bound to believe more Yea it is hardly conceiveable that any one should know and believe the Essentials only and no more It is not Essential to the Christian Covenant or Christianity to know that the Name of Christs Mother was Mary or that Pontius Pilate was the man that condemned him And if an Ignorant man thought that his continuance in the Grave was four dayes I do not think that this would damn his soul to Hell Much less the not believing that Mary dyed a Virgin And yet it is not like that any man should come to the Essentials of Christianity by any such way as should acquaint him with no one of these or any point besides the said Essentials And yet it is certain for all this that he that truly receiveth the Essentials and is true to the Baptismal Covenant shall be
saved whatsoever else he want But it is as true that he that Receiveth the Essentials will from the same principles and obligations receive more when it is aptly notified to him And he that truly Covenanteth will honestly keep the Covenant he maketh which bindeth him still to learn of Christ But if any man be saved without the Essentials he must be saved without Christianity D. But you know that they distinguish of faith Explicite and Implicite He may be Implicitely a Christian that believeth not the Essentials Explicitely as long as he believeth that which would infer them if they were made known to him to be indeed the Word of God R. Thus do Words abuse and cheat the ignorant Could you but read their own Dr. Holden before cited in his Analys fid you would find this distinction justly rendred by him shameful and ridiculous according to their common sense and use of it and the truer sense delivered and vindicated An Implicite faith or Knowledge we confess to be true as it is opposed to 1. A distinct or 2. To a well-expressed faith or Knowledge For it is Implicite ☞ 1. As to the Object when a man knoweth the whole matter but not by distinct parts As a man may know a Cup of water and not know how many drops or drams it is or he may know a sentence and not know how many letters are in it 2. Or it is Implicite as to the Act when it is yet but a crude imperfect conception and the thing is really known but not the Logical notions or Grammatical names either the verba oris or mentis by which it should be expressed So that the man cannot notifie his knowledge to another These two are called Implicite the first signifieth Confused and General Knowledge and the other Imperfect and undigested But to call that Implicite faith or knowledge which extendeth only to some Principles and not to the Conclusions themselves is 1. To Call No-knowledge and faith by the name of knowledge and faith 2. And by their application to confound the World and the Church and to make all the Infidels and Heathens to be Christians and every Fool a Philosopher For 1. All men of Reason know these two Principles who own a God 1. That God is not a lyer but all his Word is True 2. That all the Truths in the world are God's some way or other revealed by him Therefore if they knew that the Gospel were Gods word they would believe it or if they knew it to be one of those Truths that are in the world they would take it to be of God And thus all Infidels and Turks and Pagans may by such abuse be called Implicite Christians But why then do the Papists burn the Protestants when if their Religion were true we are all Implicitely Papists For we believe 1. That all Divine Revelations are True 2. And that all those are Infallible whom God hath promised to make Infallible 3. And that all those must be believed and obeyed whom God hath commanded us to believe and obey 4. And that we must not forsake that Church which God hath commanded us to adhere to 5. And that all our Lawful Pastors must be reverenced and submitted to 6. And all their lawful Precepts obeyed 7. And all Gods Sacraments holily used 8. And all Traditions from the Apostles to the Churches received with many more such Only we know not that the Pope is our Pastor or that his Councils are the Church or have a promise of Infallibility and so of the rest And yet we must burn for it if they can procure it And yet he is a true believer Implicitely who believeth not the Essentials of Christianity But the Design which is predominant here is too visible when this Implicite faith cometh to be described For it is not a Belief in God or in Christ only that will serve the turn but it must be a belief in the Church and their Church and their Pope too or else it will not do The Implicite faith is the explicite belief of these three Articles 1. All Gods Word is true 2. All that is Gods Word which the Church tells us is Gods Word 3. The Pope and his Council and Subjects are this Church And yet this man must be supposed if he know no more per impossibile not to know that there is a Christ or who he is as to his Person or Office or what he hath done or will do for us And yet that he hath a Vicar and a Church Or else they may know Christ and Christianity before they know that there is any Pope or Church and then the Pope hath lost the Game D. But if Popery be so senseless a thing as you make it how come so great a number of persons of all ranks and qualities Kings Nobles Learned men and Religiously-disposed persons to embrace it Have not they souls to save or lose as well as you and do they not lay all their hopes of Heaven upon it and can such persons and so many be so mad and senseless R. Do we need thus to ramble round about as if we would doubt of the thing till we know the Causes of it when we see and they all confess that they deny all our senses Will you not believe that there is a Sun till you know what it is made of Or whether the Sea ebb and flow till you know the Causes of it I pray you tell me Q. 1. Do you think that the Mahometan's is not a very foolish Religion and their foundation the pretended Mission of their Prophet without any shew of truth and his Alcoran if ever you read it a heap of Non-sense and Confusion D. Yes I think it deserveth no better thoughts R. And do you not know that though it arose not till about six hundred years after Christ much more of the world is Mahometan than Christian And are there not far Greater Emperours and Princes Mahometans than any that are Christians And have not all these souls to save or lose And do they not all venture their souls upon that Religion Why then is not your argument here as good for Mahometanism as for Popery D. Though the Emperours of Constantinople the Great Mogul the Persian Tartarian Mahometans c. be all Great as to their vast Dominions yet they are barbarous and unlearned in comparison of the Papists R. 1. It is not because they have not as much wit as we but because they think that our laborious wordy kind of learning is an abuse of wit and against true Policy ludicrously or contentiously diverting mens minds and time from those employments which they think more manly and profitable to the Common-wealth Though no doubt but they do err more unmanly on that extream But I further ask you Q. 2. Do you not think that the Common Religion of the Heathens is very unworthy for any wise man to venture his soul upon If you have but read
how it is described by the Antient Christians Justin Athenagoras Origen Arnobius Minutius Foelix Tertullian Lactantius Eusebius Augustine c. you will say that they thought it a ridiculous unmanly Religion D. I think no better of it than they did R. And 1. Do you not know that almost all the world was then Heathen and Idolaters Alas what was Judaea less than England to all the world Was not the Roman Empire and Alexanders before that far Greater than any Christian Prince hath now And to this day are not four sixth parts of the whole world at least Heathens and Idolaters Brierwoods Calculation is that if you divide the world into thirty parts nineteen are Heathen six Mahometans and five only Christians of all sorts besides the vast unknown parts of the world which are not like to have any Religion of supernatural Revelation 2. And do you not know that Athens and Rome-Heathen were no Barbarians but of most polite literature and the Fathers of the Learning now in use and that when the Christians arose among them they accounted them Barbarians And at this day and long before us the Chinenses have been addicted to Arts and Literature And the Brachmanes and Bonzii are no Barbarians And have not all these souls to save or lose And are all these so mad as to cast away their souls upon a senseless contemptible Religion If your reason be good how much more will it hold for the Heathens than the Papists Alas what a handful are the Papists in comparison of the present Idolaters much more in comparison of the Antient Heathen world before Christianity and Mahometanism dispossessed them of those parts which they now hold With what greater shew of advantage did the Heathens use the Arguments which the Papists do now put their trust in and lay their Cause upon 1. Do they talk of Antiquity Why it was the Novelty of Christianity in comparison of Heathenism through the world which was it that hardned them to contemn and persecute it 2. Do they talk of Vniversality and Consent Alas how little a part of the world were the Christians at first and are the Papists now in comparison of the Heathens then and now 3. Do they talk of Greatness Empire Acts and Learning How little are they as to the first to the Heathen Empires And for Learning they received it of them And Aristotle still is the Schoolmens Oracle And yet doubtless all these advantages are not sufficient to disprove the follies of Heanism nor the badness of their Religion And yet will so much less serve to support the credit of senseless Popery D. But Christians may well expect greater helps from God than Heathens or Mahometans Therefore that so many Great and Learned and Religious Christians should go such a senseless way to another world methinks seemeth strange R. And are not Greeks Armenians Syrians Abassines and Protestants all Christians as well as they Their proud schismatical unchristening all but the subjects of the Pope is a silly proof that we are no Christians or that they are any better than others unless Malignity uncharitableness and Schism be the true Excellency 1. And are not other Christians More than the Papists Bishop Bramhall reckons the Papists to be about the fifth part of Christians Suppose they be a third part They are still the Minor part 2. And are not the Protestants as Learned as the Papists Why then will not your argument hold against them as well as for them Have not all these Christians souls to save or lose And do they not take that for the true Religion on which they trust their souls D. But though all these set together are more than the Church of Rome yet no one Sect of them is so great and what matter is it how many various Sects are R. 1. The Greek Church is judged by wise men te be yet bigger than the Roman even in this its broken state But there is no doubt but it was much bigger long after the first division before the Turk did win the Eastern Empire 2. But if it were not so your objection is frivolous The Question is either of Different Churches or of Different opinions and parties in the same Church As to the first There are but two opinions in the Christian world that I know of about the Constitution of the Catholick Church The one is the opinion of the Papists only ☞ that The Catholick Church is essentially constituted both of Christ and the Pope as his Vicar and universal Monarch with all his subjects as the pars Imperans and pars subdita The other is the judgement of all other Christians that I know or hear of that The Catholick Church is essentially constituted only of Christ as the supream Head or King or pars Imperans and his subjects as the pars subdita ☞ And that Patriarchs Archbishops Bishops c. are but Officiales subditi primarii vel nobiles constitutive parts indeed of their particular Churches some humane and some Divine but no essential parts of the Catholick Church ☞ This is the Grand difference between the Papists and all other Christians in the World What the Catholick Church is Whether it have any Constitutive Vniversal Head or Monarch besides Christ Now seeing that Greeks Abassines Armenians and all agree with us in this against the Papists it is evident to them that are willing to see that we are all of the same Catholick Church though not of the same particular Churches nor all for the same Official Ministers Because we are all for the same Constitutive Head and his subjects as such and agree in all the Essential parts ☞ So that our differences among all these parties or particular Churches or Countries is but the difference of Opinions and parties in one and the same Church and not a difference of Catholick Churches which can be but one And if that be the question I undertake to prove that there is no one Sect of Christians known under Heaven that hath so many different opinions within it self if half so many nor have written half so much against one another as the Papists have done 3. But I must not here anticipate my further work when I come to that I shall shew you how small and how disagreeing a part of the Christian world the Papists are I have elsewhere recited the words of their Melchior Canus who boasteth that the Papacy yet standeth though almost all the world and besides Princes almost all the Bishops and Churches have fought against it Was it then the Universal Church And the words of Reynerius who saith that the Churches of the Armenians and the others planted by the Apostles without the Empire he meaneth were not under the Pope of Rome I shall if I live to do that work yet fullier shew you that the Pope was but the chief Patriarch in one Empire as the Archbishop of Canterbury is the chief Bishop in England and that his General Councils
Italians maintain that Christ is in the Sacrament when they do not believe that he is in Heaven 11. And many Nicodemites think that a man needs not expose himself to danger for his faith but may keep it to himself and do as his neighbours do especially where they have no other society to joyn with they think it better to joyn with the Popish Churches than none 12. And I have reason to think that it is but few among the multitude that understand indeed what the Papists hold while they go with them in the general Name and profession And in particular about Transubstantiation When even the subtle Schoolmen are not agreed of its proper sense as Durandus his instance for one doth prove I do not think that one of an hundred that receiveth their Eucharist doth in his heart believe that It is not Bread But some think that their Church it self meaneth otherwise And some say It is not for such as I to contradict them and dispute but I will leave every one to think as he will and so will I. 13. And as for Princes and Lords abroad Those that have once escaped Popery will take heed how they entertain it again unless lust and folly have sold them for a prey But they that live where their subjects are Papists dare not venture to shake so great a fabrick lest they overthrow themselves For 1. People are tumultuous 2. The Popish Clergie are rich and powerful and exceeding numerous 3. Religion is a thing that men are tender and tenacious of who are seriously of any 4. The Popish doctrine of deposing and killing excommunicate Kings maketh many Princes flatter the Priests for fear of losing â—heir lives They think that it is better make some advantage of the Popes friendship than to have such an enemy whose Knives and poison have easie access and whose armies we must watch against in peace as in a continued War and we know not when they are in our own houses or near us nor where nor when we are in safety 14. And alas the Great ones of the World have the greatest Temptations and not the weakest lusts and passions and have more of worldly and carnal Interest to carry them away 15. And the Papists Religion is notably suited to their lusts and carnal ends All which and much more may tell you that it no wonder that so many forreign Princes and States and Nobles can cleave to so sensless a way as Popery D. II. But how come so many among us in England to turn Papists of late years where Popery is discountenanced by the King Parliament and Laws R. Many of the same Causes do this which I need not reherse And 1. Too many both Noble and ignoble are prepared by their Lusts and by a vicious life There are many things in Popery which greatly accommodate a carnal mind and a debauched guilty Conscience which the Christian Protestant Religion affordeth not And a profligate flagitious person is likeliest to be forsaken of God and to be given up to believe a lye seeing they received not the truth in the love of it that they might be saved 2 Thess 2.10 11 12. I fear nothing so much as lest men turn Heart-Infidels and Tongue-Papists as the suitablest Reserve lest Christian Religion and the life to come should prove a truth And indeed great sins Cry for great Vengeance And what Greater than for Mind Will and Life to be forsaken of God 2. And alas except Lawyers Physicions and others bred up to Studies and Employments how few are there of Nobility or Gentry that are hard studying men And the great Mysteries of Religion will not be well learned and defended by a life of eating drinking playing jeasting gaming hawking hunting visitings of empty company lustfulness worldliness or vain-glorious pomp No men grow wise or Christians indeed by such a course 3. And indeed the Popish Priests are more industrious than too many of our Incumbent Ministers for which they are Commendable in their way The Erroneous are oft more zealous than the Orthodox And they that apprehend themselves between fear and hope are usually more industrious than they that by possession are secure which maketh the lower side so oft get up and the upper side go down And I would I might not say that our Ministers are too few of them able to deal with a trained Sophister Some are unable in this particular cause because they take it as a baffled pack of notorious Errors and thought that few sober persons were in danger of it And so they have honestly bent their studies and labours to the winning of sensual persons from their sins and are unfurnished in the Popish Controversies knowing that they can refer them to multitudes of Books which are unanswerable But alas too many also are unable through meer ignorance lowness of parts and gross insufficiency or negligence not only in this but other parts of their Ministerial work 4. And we have incurred no small dammage and danger by ignorant Over-doing against the Papists Partly with the self-wise Sectaries calling many laudable or blameless things by the Name of Popery Antichristianity and Idolatry because they are cross to their pre-judging partial conceits And partly by some unsound doctrines which some defend as parts of the Protestant Religion And partly by magnifying verbal differences and making a noise about them as if they were real and such as salvation lyeth on For want of skill to state a controversie and discern a verbal difference from a real And when a Papist can but shew their Novices one such palpable error in the Writings of a Protestant What sad work will he make with it and still harp upon that string and perswade the people that the rest of our differences are such like And thus many Overdoing well-meaning ignorant men both Ministers and people have unwittingly done as much to harden Papists and increase their numbers almost as if Satan had hired them as Spies to betray the Churches and Cause of Christ Yea and if one better studied in these points shall go a sounder and more successful way to work and take these weapons out of the Papists hands which some ignorant Protestants have given them the same mens blind zeal will rage against them as some did against Chillingworth Anthony Wotton and divers others our greatest Champions as if it were not themselves but these that were befriending Popery So that they neither can confute them soundly themselves nor will suffer others but zealous Protestants assault Christs ablest servants at their backs while their faces are towards the adversaries whom they oppose 5. But nothing among us except Ignorance and wickedness increaseth them more than the scandal of our numerous and some of them abominable Sects When the people see many zealous professors turn Quakers or Ranters or Seekers or Antinomians or Socinians or Familists and shall see the more tolerable parties Episcopal Presbyterian Independant Erastian Separatists and Anabaptists