A SECOND LETTER CONCERNING TOLERATION LICENSED June 24. 1690. LONDON Printed for Awnsham and John Churchill at the Black Swan in Ave-Mary-Lane near Pater-Noster-Row M DC XC TO THE AUTHOR OF THE Argument of the Letter concerning Toleraration briefly considered and answered SIR YOU will pardon me if I take the same Liberty with you that you have done with the Author of the Letter concerning Toleration to consider your Arguments and endeavour to shew you the Mistakes of them For since you have so plainly yeilded up the Question to him and do own that the Severities he would disswà de Christians from are utterly unapt and improper to bring Men to imbrace that Truth which must save them I am not without some hopes to prevail with you to do that your self which you say is the only justifiable Aim of Men differing about Religion even in the use of the severest Methods viz. Carefully and impartially to weigh the whole matter and thereby to remove that Prejudice which makes you yet favour some Remains of Persecution Promising my self that so ingenious a Person will either be convinced by the Truth which appears so very clear and evident to me or else confess that were either you or I in Authority we should very unreasonably and very unjustly use any Force upon the other which differ'd from him upon any pretence of want of Examination And if Force be not to be used in your case or mine because unreasonable or unjust you will I hope think fit that it should be forborn in all others where it will be equally unjust and unreasonable as I doubt not but to make it appear it will unavoidably be where ever you will go about to punish Men for want of Consideration For the true way to try such Speculations as these is to see how they will prove when they are reduc'd into Practice The first thing you seem startled at in the Author's Letter is the largeness of the Toleration he proposes And you think it strange that he would not have so much as a Pagan Mahumetan or Jew excluded from the Civil Rights of the Commonwealth because of his Religion We pray every day for their Conversion and I think it our Duty so to do But it will I fear hardly be believed that we pray in earnest if we exclude them from the other ordinary and probable means of Conversion either by driving them from or persecuting them when they are amongst us Force you allow is improper to convert Men to any Religion Toleration is but the removing that Force So that why those should not be tolerated as well as others if you wish their Conversion I do not see But you say it seems hard to conceive how the Author of that Letter should think to do any Service to Religion in general or to the Christian Religion by recommending and perswading such a Toleration For how much soever it may tend to the Advancement of Trade and Commerce which some seem to place above all other Considerations I see no reason from any Experiment that has been made to expect that true Religion would be a gainer by it that it would be either the better preserved the more widely propagated or rendred any whit the more fruitful in the Lives of its Professors by it Before I come to your Doubt it self Whether true Religion would be a gainer by such a Toleration give me leave to take notice that if by other Considerations you mean any thing but Religion your Parenthesis is wholly besides the matter and that if you do not know that the Author of the Letter places the Advancement of Trade above Religion your Insinuation is very uncharitable But I go on You see no reason you say from any Experiment that has been made to expect that true Religion would be a gainer by it True Religion and Christian Religion are I suppose to you and me the same thing But of this you have an Experiment in its first appearance in the World and several hundreds of Years after It was then better preserv'd more widely propagated in proportion and render'd more fruitful in the Lives of its Professors than ever since tho then Jews and Pagans were tolerated and more than tolerated by the Governments of those places where it grew up I hope you do not imagine the Christian Religion has lost aâ—… of its first Beauty Force or Reasonableness by having been â—…most 2000 Years in the World that you should fear it should be less able now to shift for it self without the help of Force I doubt not but you look upon it still to be the Poâ—…er and Wisdom of God for our Salvation and therefore cannot suspect it less capable to prevail now by its own Truth and Light than it did in the first Ages of the Church when poor contemptible Men without Authority or the countenance of Authority had alone the care of it This as I take it has been made use of by Christians generally and by some of our Church in particular as an Argument for the Truth of the Christian Religion that it grew and spread and prevailed without any Aid from Force or the Assistance of the Powers in being And if it be a mark of the true Religion that it will prevail by its own Light and Strength but that false Religions will not but have need of Force and foreign Helps to support them nothing certainly can be more for the advantage of true Religion than to take away Compulsion every where And therefore it is no more hard to conceive how the Author of the Letter should think to do Service to Religion in general or to the Christian Religion than it is hard to conceive that he should think there is a true Religion and that the Christian Religion is it which its Professors have always own'd not to need Force and have urged that as a good Argument to prove the truth of it The Inventions of Men in Religion need the Force and Helps of Men to support them A Religion that is of God wants not the Assistance of Human Authority to make it prevail I guess when this dropp'd from you you had narrow'd your Thoughts to your own Age and Country But if you will enlarge them a little beyond the Consines of England I do not doubt but you will easily imagine that if in Italy Spain Portugal c. the Inquisition and in France their Dragooning and in other parts those Severities that are used to keep or force Men to the National Religion were taken away and instead thereof the Toleration propos'd by the Author were set up the true Religion would be a gainer by it The Author of the Letter says Truth will do well enough if she were once left to shift for her self She seldom hath received and he fears never will receive much Assistance from the Power of great Men to whom she is but rarely known and more rarely welcome Errors indeed prevail by the
you not say so But if you had it would in this case do you little service For the Mass in France is as much supposed the Truth as the Liturgy here And your way of applying Force will as much promote Popery in France as Protestantism in England And so you see how serviceable it is to make Men receive and imbrace the Truth that must save them However you tell us in the same Page that if Force so applied as is above mentioned may in such sort as has been said i. e. Indirectly and at a distance be serviceable to bring Men to receive and imbrace Truth you think it sufficient to shâ—…w the usefulness of it in Religion Where I shall observe 1st That this Vsefulness amounts to no more but this That it is not impossible but that it may be useful And such a Vsefulness one cannot deny to Auricular Confession doing of Penance going of a Pilgrimage to some Saint and what not Yet our Church do's not think sit to use them though it cannot be deny'd but they may have some of your indirect and at a distance usefulness that is perhaps may do some service indirectly and by accident 2. Force your way apply'd as it may be useful so also it may be useless For 1st Where the Law punishes Diâ—…enters without telling them it is to make them consider they may through ignorance and over-sight neglect to do it and so your Force proves useless 2. Some Dissenters may have considered already and then Force imploy'd upon them must needs be useless unless you can think it useful to punish a Man to make him do that which he has done already 3. God has not directed it and therefore we have no reason to expect he should make it successful 3. It may be hurtful nay it is likely to prove more hurtful than useful 1st Because to punish Men for that which 't is visible cannot be known whether they have perform'd or no is so palpable an Injustice that it is likelier to give them an aversion to the Persons and Religion that uses it than to bring them to it 2ly Because the greatest part of Mankind being not able to discern betwixt Truth and Falshood that depend upon long and many Proofs and remote Consequences nor have ability enough to discover the salse Grounds and resist the captious and fallacious Arguments of Learned Men versed in Controversies are so much more expos'd by the Force which is used to make them hearken to the Information and Instruction of Men appointed to it by the Magistrate or those of his Religion to be led into Falshood and Error than they are likely this way to be brought to imbrace the Truth that must save them by how much the National Religions of the World are beyond comparison more of them False or Erroneous than such as have God for their Author and Truth for their Standard And that seeking and examining without the special Grace of God will not secure even knowing and learned Men from Error We have a famous instance in the two Reynold's both Scholars and Brothers but one a Protestant the other a Papist who upon the exchange of Papers between them were both turn'd but so that neither of them with all the Arguments he could use could bring his Brother back to the Religion which he himself had found Reason to imbrace Here was Ability to examine and judg beyond the ordinary rate of most Men. Yet one of these Brothers was so caught by the sophistry and skill of the other that he was brought into Error from which he could never again be extricated This we must unavoidably conclude unless we can think that wherein they differ'd they were both in the right or that Truth can be an Argument to support a Falshood both which are impossible And now I pray which of these two Brothers would you have punished to make him bethink himself and bring him back to the Truth For 't is certain some ill-grounded Cause of assent alienated one of them from it If you will examine your Principles you will find that according to your Rule The Papist must be punished in England and the Protestant in Italy So that in effect by your Rule Passion Humour Prejudice Lust Impressions of Education Admiration of Persons Worldly Respect and the like incompetent Motives must always be supposed on that side on which the Magistrate is not I have taken the Pains here in a short recapitulation to give you the view of the Vsefulness of Force your way applied which you make such a noise with and lay so much stress on Whereby I doubt not but it is visible that its Usefulness and Uselessness laid in the Ballance against each other the pretended Vsefulness is so far from outweighing that it can neither incourage nor excuse the using of Punishments which are not lawful to be used in our case without strong probability of Success But when to its Uselesness Mischief is added and it is evident that more much more harm may be expected from it than good your own Argument returns upon you For if it be reasonable to use it because it may be serviceable to promote true Religion and the Salvation of Souls it is much more reasonable to let it alone if it may be more serviceable to the promoting Falshood and the Perdition of Souls And therefore you will do well hereafter not to build so much on the Vsefulness of Force apply'd your way your indirect and at a distance Vsefulness which amounts but to the shadow and possibility of Vsefulness but with an over-balancing weight of Mischief and Harm annexed to it For upon a just estimate this indirect and at a distance Vsefulness can directly go for nothing or rather less than nothing But suppose Force apply'd your way were as useful for the promoting true Religion as I suppose I have shew'd it to be the contrary it does not from thence follow that it is lawful and may be used It may be very useful in a Parish that has no Teacher or as bad as none that a Lay-man who wanted not Abilities for it for such we may suppose to be should sometimes preach to them the Doctrine of the Gospel and stir them up to the Duties of a good Life And yet this which cannot be deny'd may be at least indirectly and at a distance serviceable towards the promoting true Religion and the Salvation of Souls you will not I imagine allow for this Vsefulness to be lawful And that because he has not Commission and Authority to do it The same might be said of the Administration of the Sacraments and any other Function of the Priestly Office This is just our Case Granting Force as you say indirectly and at a distance useful to the Salvation of Mens Souls yet it does not therefore follow that it is lawful for the Magistrate to use it Because as the Author says the Magistrate has no Commission or Authority to
The Evidence of the Argument has convinced you that Men ought not to be persecuted for their Religion That the Severities in use amongst Christians cannot be defended That the Magistrate has not Authority to compel any one to his Religion This you are forced to yield But you would fain retain some Power in the Magistrate's Hands to punish Dissenters upon a new Pretence viz. not for having imbraced the Doctrine and Worship they believe to be True and Right but for not having well consider'd their own and the Magistrate's Religion To shew you that I do not speak wholly without-Book give me leave to mind you of one Passage of yours The words are Penalties to put them upon a sorious and impartial examination of the Controversy between the Magistrates and them Though these words be not intended to tell us who you would have punished yet it may be plainly inferr'd from them And they more clearly point out whom you aim at than all the foregoing places where you seem to and should describe them For they are such as between whom and the Magistrate there is a Controversy That is in short who differ from the Magistrate in Religion And now indeed you have given us a Note by which these you would have punished may be known We have with much ado found at last whom it is we may presume you would have punished Which in other Cases is usually not very difficult because there the Faults to be mended easily design the Persons to be corrected But yours is a new Method and unlike all that ever went before it In the next place Let us see for what you would have them punished You tell us and it will easily be granted you that not to examine and weigh impartially and without Prejudice or Passion all which for shortness-sake we will express by this one word Consider the Religion one embraces or refuses is a Fault very common and very prejudicial to true Religion and the Salvation of Mens Souls But Penalties and Punishments are very necessary say you to remedy this Evil. Let us see now how you apply this Remedy Therefore say you let all Dissenters be punished Why Have no Dissenters considered of Religion Or have all Conformists considered That you your self will not say Your Project therefore is just as reasonable as if a Lethargy growing Epidemical in England you should propose to have a Law made to blister and scarify and shave the Heads of all who wear Gowns Though it be certain that neither all who wear Gowns are Lethargick nor all who are Lethargick wear Gowns Dii te Damasippe Deaeque Verum ob consilium donent tonsore For there could not be certainly a more Learned Advice than that one Man should be pull'd by the Ears because another is asleep This when you have consider'd of it again for I find according to your Principle all Men have now and then need to be jog'd you will I guess be convinced is not like a fair Physician to apply a Remedy to a Disease but like an engag'd Enemy to vent one's Spleen upon a Party Common Sense as well as Common Justice requires that the Remedies of Laws and Penalties should be directed against the Evil that is to be removed where-ever it be found And if the Punishment you think so necessary be as you pretend to cure the Mischief you complain of you must let it pursue and fall on the Guilty and those only in what company soever they are And not as you here propose and is the highest Injustice punish the Innocent considering Dissenteâ—… with the Guilty and on the other side let the inconsiderate guilty Conformist scape with the Innocent For one may rationally presume that the National Church has some nay more in proportion of those who little consider or concern themselves about Religion than any Congregation of Dissenters For Conscience or the Care of their Souls being once laid aside Interest of course leads Men into that Society where the Protection and Countenance of the Government and hopes of Preferment bid fairest to all their remaining Desires So that if careless negligent inconsiderate Men in Matters of Religion who without being forced would not consider are to be roused into a care of their Souls and a search after Truth by Punishments The National Religion in all Countries will certainly have a right to the greatest share of those Punishments at least not to be wholly exempt from them This is that which the Author of the Letter as I remember complains of and that justly viz. That the pretended Care of Mens Souls always expresses it self in those who would have Force any way made use of to that end in very unequâ—…l Methods some Persons being to be treated with Severity whilst others guilty of the same Faults are not to be so much as touched Though you are got pretty wâ—…ll out of the deep Mud and renounce Punishments directly for Religion yet you stick still in this part of the Mire whilst you would have Dissenters punished to make them consider but would not have any thing done to Conformists tho never so negligent in this point of considering The Author's Letter pleas'd me because it is equal to all Mankind is direct and will I think hold every where which I take to be a good Mark of Truth For I shall always suspect that neither to comport with the Truth of Religion or the Design of the Gospel which is suited to only some one Country or Party What is True and Good in England will be True and Good at Rome too in China or Geneva But whether your great and only Method for the propagating of Truth by bringing the Inconsiderate by Punishments to consider would according to your way of applying your Punishments only to Dissenters from the National Religion be of use in those Countries or any where but where you suppose the Magistrate to be in the Right judg you Pray Sir consider a little whether Prejudice has not some share in your way of Arguing For this is your Position Men are generally negligent in examining the Grounds of their Religion This I grant But could there be a more wild and incoherent Consequence drawn from it than this Therefore Dissenters must be punished But that being laid aside let us now see to what end they must be punished Sometimes it is To bring them to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince them Of what That it is not easy to set Grantham Steeple upon Paul's Church What-ever it be you would have them convinced of you are not willing to tell us And so it may be any thing Sometimes it is To incline them to lend an Ear to those who tell them they have mistaken their Way and offer to shew them the Right Which is to lend an Ear to all who differ from them in Religion as well crafty Seducers as others Whether this be for the procuring
the Magistrate For if it be the Power of the Magistrate it is his And what need the People vest it in him unless there be need and it be the best course they can take to vest a Power in the Magistrate which he has already 2dly Another pleasant thing you here say is That the Power of the Magistrates is to bring men to such a care of their Salvation that they may not blindly leave it to the choice of any person or their own lusts or passions to prescribe to them what faith or worship they shall imbrace And yet that 't is their best course to vest a Power in the Magistrate liable to the same lusts and passions as themselves to chuse for them For if they vest a Power in the Magistrate to punish them when they dissent from his Religion to bring them to act even against their own inclination according to reason and sound judgment which is as you explain your self in another place to bring them to consider Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince them How far is this from leaving it to the choice of another man to prescribe to them what Faith or Worship they shall imbrace Especially if we consider that you think it a strange thing That the Author would have the care of every man's Soul left to himself alone So that this care being vested in the Magistrate with a Power to punish men to make them consider Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince them of the Truth of his Religion the choice is evidently in the Magistrate As much as it can be in the power of one man to chuse for another what Religion he shall be of which consists only in a Power of compelling him by Punishments to embrace it I do neither you nor the Magistrate Injury when I say that the Power you give the Magistrate of punishing men to make them consider reasons and arguments proper and sufficient to convince them is to convince them of the truth of his Religion and to bring them to it For Men will never in his opinion Act according to Reason and sound Judgment which is the thing you here say Men should be brought to by the Magistrate even against their own Inclination till they imbrace his Religion And if you have the brow of an Honest Man you will not say the Magistrate will ever punish you to bring you to consider any other Reasons and Arguments but such as are proper to convince you of the truth of his Religion and to bring you to that Thus you shift forwards and backwards You say The Magistrate has no Power to punish Men to compel them to his Religion but only to compel them to consider Reasons and Arguments proper to convince them of the truth of his Religion which is all one as to say no Body has Power to chuse your way for you to Jerusalem But yet the Lord of the Mannor has Power to punish you to bring you to consider Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince you of what That the way he goes in is the right and so to make you joyn in Company and go along with him So that in effect what is all your going about but to come at last to the same place again and put a Power into the Magistrate's hands under another pretence to compel Men to his Religion which use os Force the Author has sufficiently overthrown and you your self have quitted But I am tired to follow you so often round the same Circle You speak of it here as the most deplorable Condition imaginable that Men should be left to themselves and not be forced to consider and examine the Grounds of their Religion and search impartially and diligently after the truth This you make the great miscarriage of Mankind And for this you seem solicitous all through your Treatise to find out a Remedy and there is scarce a Leaf wherein you do not offer yours But what if after all now you should be found to prevaricate Men have contrived to themselves say you a great variety of Religions 'T is granted They seek not the Truth in this matter with that Application of Mind and that freedom of Judgment which is requisite 'T is confessed All the false Religions now on foot in the World have taken their rise from the slight and partial Consideration which Men have contented themselves with in searching after the true and Men take them up and persist in them for want of due Examination Be it so There is need of a Remedy for this and I have found one whose Success cannot be questioned Very well What is it Let us hear it Why Dissenters must be punished Can any Body that hears you say so believe you in earnest and that want of Examination is the thing you would have amended when want of Examination is not the thing you would have punished If want of Examination be the fault want of Examination must be punished if you are as you pretend fully satisfied that Punishment is the proper and only means to remedy it But if in all your Treatise you can shew me one place where you say That the Ignorant the Careless the Inconsiderate the Negligent in examining throughly the truth of their own and others Religion c. are to be punished I wâ—…ll allow your remedy for a good one But you have not said any thing like this and which is more I tell you before hand you dare not say it And whilst you do not the World has reason to judg that however want of Examination be a general Fault which you with great Vehemency have exaggerated yet you use it only for a pretence to punish Dissenters and either distrust your remedy that it will not cure this Evil or else care not to have it generally cur'd This evidently appears from your whole management of the Argument And he that reads your Tâ—…eatise with attention will be more confirm'd in this Opinion when he shall find that you who are so earnest to have Men punished to bring them to consider and examine that so they may discover the way to Salvation have not said one word of considering searching and hearkening to the Scripture which had been as good a rule for a Christian to have sent them to as to Reasons and Arguments prâ—…per to convince them of you know not what As to the Inâ—…ction and Government of the proper Ministers of Religion which who they are Men are yet â—…ar from being agreed Or as to the â—…formation of â—…hose who tell them they have mistakâ—…n their way and offer to shew them the right and to the like uncertain and dangerous Guides whâ—…ch were not those that our Saviour and the Apostles sent Men to but to the Scriptures Sâ—…arch the Scriptures for in them you think you have â—…nal Life says our Saviour to the unbelieving persecuting Jews 〈◊〉 5.39 And 't is the Scriptures which St. Pauls says
Assistance of Foreign and borrowed Succours Truth makes way into our Vnderstanding by her own Light and is but the weaker for any borrowed Force that Violence can add to her These words of his how hard soever they may seem to you may help you to conceive how he should think to do Service to True Religion by recommending and perswading such a Toleration as he proposed And now pray tell me your self whether you do not think True Religion would be a gainer by it if such a Toleration establish'd there would permit the Doctrine of the Church of England to be freely preached and its Worship set up in any Popish Mahumetan or Pagan Country If you do not you have a very ill Opinion of the Religion of the Church of England and must own that it can only be propagated and supported by Force If you think it would gain in those Countries by such a Toleration you are then of the Author's Mind and do not find it so hard to conceive how the recommending such a Toleration might do Service to that which you think True Religion But if you allow such a Toleration useful to Truth in other Countries you must find something very peculiar in the Air that must make it less useful to Truth in England And 't will savour of much partiality and be too absurd I fear for you to own that Toleration will be advantagious to True Religion all the World over except only in this Island Though I much suspect this as absurd as it is lies at the bottom And you build all you say upon this lurking Supposition that the National Religion now in England back'd by the Publick Authority of the Law is the only True Religion and therefore no other is to be tolerated Which being a Supposition equally unavoidable and equally just in other Countries unless we can imagine that every where but in England Men believe what at the same time they think to be a Lie will in other Places exclude Toleration and thereby hinder Truth from the means of propagating it self What the Fruits of Toleration are which in the next words you complain do remain still among us and which you say give no Encouragement to hope for any Advantages from it what Fruits I say these are or whether they are owing to the want or wideness of Toleration among us we shall then be able to judg when you tell us what they are In the mean time I will boldly say that if the Magistrates will severely and impartially set themselves against Vice in whomsoever it is found and leave Men to their own Consciences in their Articles of Faith and Ways of Worship True Religion will be spread wider and be more fruitful in the Lives of its Professors than ever hitherto it has been by the imposition of Creeds and Ceremonies You tell us that no Man can fail of sinding the Way of Salvation who seeks it as he ought I wonder you had not taken notice in the places you quote for this how we are directed there to the right way of seeking The words John vii 17. are If any Man will do his Will he shall know of the Doctrine whether it be of God And Psalm XXV 9 12 14. which are also quoted by you tell us The Meek will he guide in Judgment and the Meek will he teach his Way What Man is he that feareth the Lord him shall he teach in the Way that he shall chuse The Secret of the Lord is with them that fear him and he will shew them his Covenant So that these places if they prove what you cite them for that no Man can fail of finding the Way of Salvation who seeks it as he ought they do also prove that a good Life is the only way to seek as we ought and that therefore the Ma istrates if they would put Men upon seeking the way of Salvation as they ought should by their Laws and Penalties force them to a good Life A good Conversation being the readiest and surest way to a right Understanding Punishments and Severities thus apply'd we are sure are both practicable just and useful How Punishments will prove in the way you contend for we shall see when we come to consider it Having given us these broad Marks of your Good-will to Toleration you tell us 'T is not your Design to argue against it but only to enquire what our Author offers for the proof of his Assertion And then you give us this Scheme of his Argument 1. There is but one Way of Salvation or but one True Religion 2. No Man can be saved by this Religion who does not believe it to be the True Religion 3. This Belief is to be wrought in Men by Reason and Argument not by outward Force and Compulsion 4. Therefore all such Force is utterly of no use for the promoting True Religion and the Salvation of Souls 5. And therefore no Body can have any Right to use any Force or Compulsion for the bringing Men to the True Religion And you tell us the whole strength of what that Letter urged for the Purpose of it lies in this Argument Which I think you have no more reason to say than if you should tell us that only one Beam of a House had any strength in it when there are several others that would support the Building were that gone The purpose of the Letter is plainly to desend Toleration exempt from all Force especially Civil Force or the Force of the Magistrate Now if it be a true Consequence that Men must be tolerated if Magistrates have no Commission or Authority to punish them for Matters of Religion then the only strength of that Letter lies not in the unfitness of Force to convince Mens Vnderstanding Vid. Let. p. 7. Again If it be true that Magistrates being as liable to Error as the rest of Mankind their using of Force in Matters of Religion would not at all advance the Salvation of Mankind allowing that even Force could work upon them and Magistrates had Authority to use it in Religion then the Argument you mention is not the only one in that Letter of strength to prove the Necessity of Toleration V. Let. P. 8. For the Argument of the unsitness of Force to convince Mens Minds being quite taken away either of the other would be a strong proof for Toleration But let us consider the Argument as you have put it The two first Propositions you say you agree to As to the Third you grant that Force is very improper to be used to induce the Mind to assent to any Truth But yet you deny that Force is utterly useless for the promoting True Religion and the Salvation of Mens Souls which you call the Author's 4th Proposition But indeed that is not the Author's 4th Proposition or any Proposition of his to be sound in the Pages you quote or any where else in the whole Letter either in those terms or
do so For however you have put it thus as you have fram'd the Author's Argument Force is utterly of no use for the promoting of true Religion and the Salvation of Souls and therefore no body can have any right to use any Force or Compulsion for the bringing Men to the true Religion yet the Author does not in those Pages you quote make the latter of these Propositions an Inference barely from the former but makes use of it as a Truth proved by several Arguments he had before brought to that purpose For tho it be a good Argument it is not useful therefore not fit to be used yet this will not be good Logick it is useful therefore any one has a right to use it For if the Vsefulness makes it lawful it makes it lawful in any hands that can so apply it and so private Men may use it Who can deny say you but that Force indirectly and at a distance may do some Service towards the bringing Men to imbrace that Truth which otherwise they would never acquaint themselves with If this be good arguing in you for the usefulness of Force towards the saving of Mens Souls give me leave to argue after the same fashion 1. I will suppose which you will not deny me that as there are many who take up their Religion upon wrong Grounds to the indangering of their Souls so there are many that abandon themselves to the heat of their Lusts to the indangering of their Souls 2dly I will suppose that as Force apply'd your way is apt to make the Inconsiderate consider so Force apply'd another way is as apt to make the Lascivious chaste The Argument then in your form will stand thus Who can deny but that Force indirectly and at a distance may by Castration do some Service towards bringing Men to imbrace that Chastity which otherwise they would never acquaint themselves with Thus you see Castration may indirectly and at a distance be serviceable towards the Salvation of Mens Souls But will you say from such an usefulness as this because it may indirectly and at a distance conduce to the saving of any of his Subjects Souls that therefore the Magistrate has a right to do it and may by Force make his Subjects Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven It is not for the Magistrate or any body else upon an Imagination of its Vsefulness to make use of any other means for the Salvation of Mens Souls than what the Author and Finisher of our Faith hath directed You may be mistaken in what you think useful Dives thought and so perhaps should you and I too if not better inform'd by the Scriptures that it would bâ—… useful to rouze and awaken Men if one should come to them from the Dead But he was mistaken And we are told that if Men will not hearken to Moses and the Prophets the means appointed neither will the Strangeness nor Terror of one coming from the Dead perswade them If what we are apt to think useful were thence to be concluded so we should I fear be obliged to believe the Miracles pretended to by the Church of Rome For Miracles we know were once useful for the promoting true Religion and the Salvation of Souls which is more than you can say for your Political Punishments But yet we must conclude that God thinks them not useful now unless we will say that which without Impiety cannot be said that the Wise and Benign Disposer and Governour of all things does not now use all useful means for promoting his own Honour in the World and the Good of Souls I think this Consequence will hold as well as what you draw in near the same words Let us not therefore be more wise than our Maker in that stupendious and supernatural Work of our Salvation The Scripture that reveals it to us contains all that we can know or do in order to it and where that is silent 't is in us Presumption to direct When you can shew any Commission in Scripture for the use of Force to compel Men to hear any more than to imbrace the Doctrine of others that differ from them we shall have reason to submit to it and the Magistrate have some ground to set up this new way of Persecution But till then 't will be sit for us to obey that Precept of the Gospel which bids us take heed what we hear So that hearing is not always so useful as you suppose If it had we should never have had so direct a Caution against it 'T is not any imaginary Vsefulness you can suppose which can make that a punishable Crime which the Magistrate was never authorized to meddle with Go and teach all Nations was a Commission of our Saviour's But there was not added to it Punish those that will not hear and consider what you say No but if they will not receive you shake off the Dust of your Feet leave them and apply your selves to some others And St. Paul knew no other means to make Men hear but the preaching of the Gospel as will appear to any one who will read Romans the 10th 14 c. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God You go on and in favour of your beloved Force you tell us that it is not only useful but needful And here after having at large in the four following Pages set out the Negligence or Aversion or other hinderances that keep Men from examining with that application and freedom of Judgment they should the Grounds upon which they take up and persist in their Religion you come to conclude Force necessary Your words are If Men are generally averse to a due Consideration of things where they are most concerned to use it if they usually take up their Religion without examining it as they ought and then grow so opinionative and so stiff in their Prejudice that neither the gentlest Admonitions nor the most earnest Intreaties shall ever prevail with them afterwards to do it what means is there left besides the Grace of God to reduce those of them that are got into a wrong Way but to lay Thorns and Briars in it That since they are deaf to all Perswasions the uneasiness they meet with may at least put them to a stand and incline them to lend an Ear to those who tell them they have mistaken their way and offer to shew them the right way What means is there left say you but Force What to do To reduce Men who are out of it into the right way So you tell us here And to that I say there is other means besides Force that which was appointed and made use of from the beginning the Preaching of the Gospel But say you to make them hear to make them consider to make them examine there is no other means but Punishment and therefore it is necessary I answer 1st What if God for Reasons best known to himself would not have
Men compell'd to hear but thought the good Tidings of Salvation and the Proposals of Life and Death Means and Inducements enough to make them hear and consider now as well as heretofore Then your Means your Punishments are not necessary What if God would have Men left to their freedom in this Point if they will hear or if they will forbear will you constrain them Thus we are sure he did with his own People And this when they were in Captivity And 't is very like were ill treated for being of a different Religion from the National and so were punished as Dissenters Yet then God expected not that those Punishments should force them to hearken more than at other times As appears by Ezek. 3.11 And this also is the Method of the Gospel We are Ambassadors for Christ as if God did beseech by us we pray in Christ's stead says St. Paul 2 Cor. v. 20. If God had thought it necessary to have Men punish'd to make them give Ear he could have call'd Magistrates to be Spreaders and Ministers of the Gospel as well as poor Fisher-men or Paul a Persecutor who yet wanted not Power to punish where Punishment was necessary as is evident in Ananias and Sapphira and the incestuous Corinthian 2ly What if God foreseeing this Force would be in the hands of Men as passionate as humoursome as liable to Prejudice and Error as the rest of their Brethren did not think it a proper Means to bring Men into the Right Way 3ly What if there be other Means Then yours ceases to be necessary upon the account that there is no means left For you your self allow That the Grace of God is another means And I suppose you will not deny it to be both a proper and sufficient Means and which is more the only Means such Means as can work by it self and without which all the Force in the World can do nothing God alone can open the Ear that it may hear and open the Heart that it may understand and this he does in his own good Time and to whom he is graciously pleas'd but not according to the Will and Phancy of Man when he thinks sit by Punishments to compel his Brethren If God has pronounced against any Person or People what he did against the Jews Isa. 6.10 Make the Heart of this People fat and make their Ears heavy and shut their Eyes lest they see with their Eyes and hear with their Ears and understand with their Hearts and convert and be healed Will all the Force you can use be a Means to make them hear and understand and be converted But Sir to return your Argument You see no other Means left taking the World as we now find it to make Men throughly and impartially examine a Religion which they imbraced upon such Inducements as ought to have no sway at all in the Matter and with little or no examination of the proper Grounds of it And thence you conclude the use of Force by the Magistrate upon Dissenters necessary And I say I see no other Means left taking the World as we now find it wherein the Magistrates never lay Penalties for Matters of Religion upon those of his own Church nor is it to be expected they ever should to make Men of the National Church any where throughly and impartially examine a Religion which they imbraced upon such Inducements as ought to have no sway at all in the Matter and therefore with little or no examination of the proper Grounds of it And therefore I conclude the use of Force by Dissentâ—…rs upon Conformists necessary I appeal to the World whether this be not as just and natural a Conclusion as yours Though if you will have my Opinion I think the more genuine Consequence is that Force to make Men examine Matters of Religion is not necessary at all But you may take which of these Consequences you please Both of them I am sure you cannot avoid It is not for you and me out of an imagination that they may be useful or are necessary to prescribe means in the great and mysterious Work of Salvation other than what God himself has directed God has appointed Force as useful and necessary and therefore it is to be used is a way of Arguing becoming the Ignorance and Humility of poor Creatures But I think Force useful or necessary and therefore it is to be used has methinks a little too much presumption in it You ask What Means else is there left None say I to be used by Man but what God himself has directed in the Scriptures wherein are contained all the Means and Methods of Salvation Faith is the Gift of God And we are not to use any other Means to procure this Gift to any one but what God himself has prescribed If he has there appointed that any should be forced to hear those who tell them they have mistaken their way and offer to shew them the right and that they should be punished by the Magistrate if they did not 't will be past doubt it is to be made use of But till that can be done 't will be in vain to say what other Means is there left If all the Means God has appointed to make Men hear and consider be Exhortation in Season and out of Season c. together with Prayer for them and the Example of Meekness and a good Life this is all ought to be done Whether they will hear or whether they will forbear By these means the Gospel at first made it self to be heard through a great part of the World and in a crooked and perverse Generation led away by Lusts Humours and Prejudice as well as this you complain of prevail'd with Men to hear and imbrace the Truth and take care of their own Souls without the assistance of any such Force of the Magistrate which you now think needful But whatever Neglect or Aversion there is in some Men impartially and throughly to be instructed there will upon a due Examination I fear be found no less a Neglect and Aversion in others impartially and throughly to instruct them 'T is not the talking even general Truths in plain and clear Language much less a Man 's own Fancies in Scholastick or uncommon ways of speaking an hour or two once a week in publick that is enough to instruct even willing Hearers in the way of Salvation and the Grounds of their Religion They are not Politick Discourses which are the means of right Information in the Foundations of Religion For with such sometimes venting Antimonarchical Principles sometimes again preaching up nothing but absolute Monarchy and Passive Obedience as the one or other have been in vogue and the way to Preferment have our Churches rung in their turns so loudly that Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince Men of the Truth in the controverted Points of Religion and to direct them in the right way to Salvation were scarce
obstinate to weigh matters of Religion carefully and impartially and without which ordinarily they will not do this Where it is to be observed First That who are these men of Common Discretion is as hard to know as to know what is a fit degree of Punishment in the case and so you do but regulate one Uncertainty by another Some men will be apt to think that he who will not weigh matters of Religion which are of infinite concernment to him without Punishment cannot in reason be thought a man of Commâ—…n Discretion Many Women of Common Discretion enough to manage the ordinary Affairs of their Families are not able to read a Page in an ordinary Author or to understand and give an account what it means when read to them Many men of Common Discretion in their Callings are not able to judg when an Argument is conclusive or no much less to trace it through a long train of Consequences What Penalties shall be sufficient to prevail with such who upon examination I â—…ear will not be found to make the least part of Mankind to examine and weigh matters of Religion carefully and impartially The Law allows all to have Common Discretion for whom it has not provided Guardians or Bedlam So that in effect your men of Common Discretion are all men not judg'd Ideots or Madmen And Penalties sufficient to prevail with men of Common Discretion are Penalties sufficient to prevail with all men but Ideots and Mad-men Which what a measure it is to regulate Penalties by let all men of Common Discretion judg Secondly You may be pleased to consider That all men of the same degree of Discretion are not apt to be moved by the same degree of Penalties Some are of a more yielding some of a more stiff Temper and what is sufficient to prevail on one is not half enough to move the other tho both men of Common Discretion So that Common Discretion will be here of no use to determine the measure of Punishment Especially when in the same Clause you except men desperately perverse and obstinate who are as hard to be known as what you seek viz. the just proportitions of Punishments necessary to prevail with men to consider examine and weigh matters of Religion wherein if a man tells you he has consider'd he has weigh'd he has examin'd and so goes on in his former course 't is impossible for you ever to know whether he has done his duty or whether he be desperately perverse and obstinate So that this exception signifies just nothing There are many things in your use of Force and Penalties different from any I ever met with elsewhere One of them this Clause of yours concerning the measure of Punishments now under consideration offers me Wherein you proportion your Punishments only to the yielding and corrigible not to the perverse and obstinate contrary to the Common Discretion which has hitherto made Laws in other cases which levels the Punishments against refractory Offenders and never spares them because they are obstinate This however I will not blame as an oversight in you Your new method which aims at such impracticable and inconsistent things as Laws cannot bear nor Penalties be useful to forced you to it The Uselessness absurdity and unreasonableness of great Severities you had acknowledg'd in the foregoing Paragraphs Dissenters you would have brought to consider by moderate Penalties They lye under them but whether they have consider'd or no for that you cannot tell they still continue Dissenters What is to be done now Why the incurable are to be left to God as you tell us P. 12. Your Punishments were not meant to prevail on the desperately perverse and obstinate as you tell us here And so whatever be the success your Punishments are however justified You have given us in another place something like another boundary to your moderate Penalties But when examined it proves just like the rest trifling only in good words so put together as to have no direct meaning an art very much in use amongst some sort of Learned Men. The words are these Such Penalties as may not tempt persons who have any concern for their Eternal Salvation and those who have none ought not to be considered to renounce a Religion which they believe to be true or profess one which they do not believe to be so If by any concern you mean a true concern for their Eternal Salvation by this rule you may make your Punishments as great as you please and all the severities you have difclaim'd may be brought in play again For none of those will be able to make a man who is truly concerned for his eternal Salvation renounce a Religion he believes to be true or prosess one he does not believe to be so If by those who have any concern you mean such who have some faint wishes for Happiness hereafter and would be glad to have things go well with them in the other world but will venture nothing in this world for it These the moderatest Punishments you can imagine will make change their Religion If by any concern you mean whatever may be between these two the degrees are so infinite that to proportion your Punishments by that is to have no measure of them at all One thing I cannot but take notice of in this passage before I leave it And that is that you say here Those who have no concern for their Salvation deserve not to be considered In other parts of your Letter you pretend to have compassion on the careless and provide remedies for them But here of a sudden your Charity fails you and you give them up to Eternal Perdition without the least regard the least pity and say they deserve not to be considered Our Saviour's Rule was The sick and not the whole need a Physician Your Rule here is Those that are careless are not to be considered but are to be lest to themselves This would seem strange if one did not observe what drew you to it You perceiv'd that if the Magistrate was to use no Punishments but such as would make no body change their Religion he was to use none at all For the careless would be brought to the National Church with any slâ—…ght Punishments and when they are once there you are it seems satisfied and look no further after them So that by your own measures if the Careless and those who have no concern for their Eternal Salvation are to be regarded and taken care of if the Salvation of their Souls is to be promoted there is to be no Punishments used at all And therefore you leave them out as not to be considered There remains yet one thing to be enquired into concerning the measure of the Punishments and that is the length of their duration Moderate Punishments that are continued that men find no end of know no way out of sit heavy and become immoderately uneasie Dissenters you would have
could not be their spiritual and eternal Interest For they could not stipulate about these one with another nor submit this Interest to the power of the Society or any Sovereign they they should set over it There are Nations in the West-Indies which have no other End of their Society but their mutual defence against their common â—…ies In these their Captain or Prince is Sovereign Commander in time of War but in time of Peace neither ne nor â—…y body else has any Authority over any of the Society You cannot deny but other even temporal ends are attainable by these Commonwealths if they had been otherwise instituted and appointed to those ends But all your saying Doubtless Commonwealths are instituted for the attaining of all the benefits which they can yield will not give Authority to any one or more in such a Society by Political Government or Force to procure directly or indirectly other Benefits than that for which it was instituted And therefore there it falls not within the compass of those Princes Jurisdiction to punish any one of the Society for injuring another because he has no commission so to do whatever reason you may think there is that that should be reckoned amongst the Ends of their Society But to conclude Your Argument has that desect in it which turns it upon your self And that is that the procuring and advancing the Spiritual and Eternal Interest of Souls your way is not a Benefit to the Society And so upon your own Supposition the procuring and advancing the spiritual Interest of Souls any way cannot be one of the Ends of Civil Society unless the procuring and advancing the spiritual Interest of souls in a way proper to do more harm than good towards the salvation of Souls be to be accounted such a Benefit as to be one of the ends of Civil Societies For that yours is such a way I have proved already So that were it hard to prove that Political Government whose only Instrument is Force could no way by Force however applied more advance than hinder the Spiritual and Eternal Interest of men yet having prov'd it against your particular new way of applying Force I have sufficiently vindicated the Author's Doctrine from any thing you have said against it Which is enough for my present purpose Your next Page tells us That this reasoning of the Author viz. That the Power of the Magistrate cannot be exâ—…ended to the Salvation of Souls because the care of Souls is not committed to the Magistrate is proving the thing by it self As if you should say when I tell you that you could not extend your Power to meddle with the money of a young Gentleman you travelled with as Tutor because the care of his Money was not committed to you were proving the thing by it self For it is not necessary that you should have the Power of his money it may be intrusted to a Steward who travels with him or it may be left to himself If you have it it is but a delegated Power And in all delegated Powers I thought this a fair proof you have it not or cannot use it which is what the Author means here by extended to because it is not committed to you In the summing up of this Argument P. 18. the Author says No body therefore in fine neither Common-wealths c. hath any Title to invade the Civil Rights and worldly goods of another upon pretence of Râ—…ligion Which is an exposition of what he means in the beginning of the Argument by the Magistrates Power cannot be extended to the Salvation of Souls So that if we take these last cited words equivalent to those in the former place his Prâ—…of will stand thus The Magistrate has no title to invade the Civil Rights or Worldly Goods of any one upon pretence of Religion because the care of Souls is not committed to him This is the same in the Author's sense with the former And whether either this or that be a proving the same thing by it self we must leave to others to judg You quote the â—…uthor's Argument which he brings to prove that the care of Souls is not committed to the Magistrate in these words It is not committed to him by God because it appears not that God has ever given any such authority to one man over another as to compel any one to his Religion This when first I read it I confess I thought a good Argument But you say this is quite besides the business and the reason you give is For the authority of the Magistrate is not an authority to compel any one to his Religion but only an authority to procure all his Subjects the means of discovering the way of Salvation and to procure withal as much as in him lies that none remain ignorant of it c. I fear Sir you forget your self The Author was not writing against your new Hypothesis before it was known in the World He may be excused if he had not the gift of Prophecy to argue against a Notion which was not yet started He had in view only the Laws hitherto made and the Punishments in matters of Religion in use in the world The Penalties as I take it are lain on men for being of different ways of Religion Which what is it other but to compel them to relinquish their own and to conform themselves to that from which they differ If this be not to compel them to the Magistrates Religion pray tellâ—… us what is This must be necessarily so understood unless it can be supposed that the Law intends not to have that done which with Penalies it commands to be done or that Punishments are not compulsion not that compulsion the Author complains of The Law says Do this and live embrace this Doctrine conform to this way of Worship and be at ease and free or else be fined imprisoned banished burnt If you can shew among the Laws that have been made in England concerning Religion and I think I may say any-where else any one that punishes men for not having impartially examin'd the Religion they have imbraced or refus'd I think I may yield you the Cause Law-makers have been generally wiser than to make Laws that could not be executed and therefore their Laws were against Nonconformists which could be known and not for impartial examination which could not 'T was not then besides the Author's business to bring an argument against the Persecutions here in fashion He did not know that any one who was so free as to acknowledg that the Magistrate has not an authority to compel any one to his Religion and thereby at once as you have done give up all the Laws now in force against Dissenters had yet Rods in store for them and by a new Trick would bring them under the lash of the Law when the old Pretences were too much exploded to serve any longer Have you never heard of such a thing as the Religion
establish'd by Law Which is it seems the Lawful Religion of a Countrey and to be comply'd with as such There being such things such notions yet in the World it was not quite besides the Author's business to alledge that God never gave such authority to one man over another as to compel any one to his Religion I will grant if you please Religion establish'd by Law is a pretty odd way of speaking in the mouth of a Christian and yet it is much in fashion as if the Magistrate's Authority could add any force or sanction to any Religion whether true or false I am glad to find you have so far considered the Magistrate's Authority that you agree with the Author that he hath none to compel men to his Religion Much less can he by any establishment of Law add any thing to the Truth or Validity of his own or any Religion whatsoever It remains now to examine whether the Author's Argument will not hold good even against Punishments in your way For if the Magistrate's Authority be as you here say only to procure all his Subjects mark what you say ALL HIS SUBJECTS the means of discovering the way of Salvation and to procure withal as much as in him lies that NONE remain ignorant of it or refuse to embrace it either for want of using those means or by reason of any such prejudices as may render them ineffectual If this be the Magistrate's business in reference to ALL HIS SUBJECTS I desire you or any man else to tell me how this can be done by the application of Force only to a part of them Unless you will still vainly suppose ignorance â—…gligence or prejudice only amongst that part whiâ—…h any where dâ—…ffers from the Magistrate If those of the Magistrates Church may be ignorant of the way of salvation If it be possible there may be amongst them those who refuse to imbrace it either for want of using those means or by reason of any such prejudices as may render them ineffectual What in this case becomes of the Magistrate's Authority to procure all his Subjects the means of discovering the way of salâ—…ation Must these of his Subjects be neglected and lest without the means he has Authority to procure them Or must he ase Force upon them too And then pray shew me how this can be done Shall the Magistrate punish those of his own Religion to procurâ—… them the means of discovering the way of salvation and to procure as much as in him lies that they remain nor ignorant of it or refuse not to imbrace it These are such contradictions in practice this is such condemnation of a man 's own Religion as no one can expect from the Magistrate and I dare say you desire not of him And yet this is that he must do If his Authority â—…e to precure all his subjects the means of discovering the way to salvation And if it be so needful as you say it is that he should use it I am sure Force canâ—…do that till it be apply'd wider and Punishment be laid upon more than you would have it For if the Magistrate be by Force to pricuâ—…e â—…s much as in him lies that none remâ—…gnorant of the way of salvation must he not punish all those who are ignorant of the way of salvation And pray tell me how is this any way practicable but by supposing none in the National Church ignorant and all out of it ignorant of the way of Sâ—…lvation Which what is it but to punish men barely for not being of the Magistrate's Religion The very thing you deny he has authority to do So that the Magistraie having by your own confession nâ—… authority thus to use Force and it being otherways impract cable for the procuring all his Subjects the means of discovering the way of salvation there is an end of Force And so Force being laid aside either as unlawful or unpracticable the Author's Argument holds good against Force even in your way of applying it But if you say as you do in the foregoing page That the Magistrate has authority to lay such Penalties upon those who refuse to imbrace the Doctrine of the proper Ministers of Religion and â—…o submit to their Spiritual Government as to make them betbâ—…nk themselvâ—…s so as not to be aliâ—…nated from the Truth â—…or as for foâ—…lish â—…umour and uncharitable prâ—…judice c. which are but words oâ—… course that opposite Parties give one another as marks of dâ—…ke and presumption I omit them as signifying nothing to the Question being such as will with the same Reason be retorâ—…ed by the other Side Against that also the Author's Argument holds That the Magistrate has no such Authority 1st Because God never gave the Magistrate an authority to be Judg of truth for another man in matters of Religion and so he cannot be judg whether any man be altenated from the truth or no. 2â—…ly Because the Magistrate had never authority given him to lay any Penaltieâ—… on those who refuse to imbrace the Doctrine of the proper Ministers of his Religion or of any other or to submit to their Spiritual Government more than oâ—… any other men To the Author's Argument that the Magistrate cannot receive such authority from the People because no man has power to leave it to the choice of any other man to chuse a Religion for him you give this pleasant Answer As the Power of the Magi-strate in reference to Religionâ—… is ordained for the bringing men to take such care as they ought of their Salvation that they may not blindly leave it to the choice neither of any other person nor yet of their own lusts and passiâ—…ns to prescribe to them what faith or worship they shall embrace So if we suppose this power to be vested in the Magistrate by the consent of the People this will not 〈◊〉 their abandoning the care of their Salvation but rather the contrayâ—… For if men in chusing their Religion are so generally subject as has been showed when left wholly to thâ—…es to be so much â—…way d by prejudice and passion as either not at all or not sufficiently to regard the reasonâ—… and motives which ought alone to determine their choice then it is every man's true interest not to be left whoâ—…ly to himself in this matter but that care should be taken thaâ—…in an Affair of so vast concernment to him be 〈◊〉 be brought even against his own inclâ—…ation if it cannot be done otherwise which is ordinarily the case to act according to reason anâ—… sound judgmentâ—… And then what better course can mâ—…n take to provide for this than by vesting the Power I have described in him who bears the Sword Wherein I beseech you consider 1st Whether it be not pleasant that you say the Power of the Magistrate is ordaâ—…'d to bring men to take such care and thence infer Then it is every one's interest to vest such Power in
e. Punishment may be any way useful for the promoting the Salvation of Souls there is a right somewhere to use it And this Right say you is in the Magistrate Who then upon your grounds may quickly find reason where it suits his inclination or serves his turn to punish men directly to bring them to his Religion For if he may use Force because it may be indirectly and at a distance any way useful towards the Salvation of Souls towards the procuring any degree of glory Why may he not by the same Rule use it where it may be useful at least indirectly and at a distance towards the procuring a greater degree of glory For St. Paul assures us that the Afflictions of this life work for us a far more exceeding weight of glory So that why should they not be punished if in the wrong to bring them into the right way If in the right to make them by their Sufferings gainers of a far more exceeding weight of glory But whatever you say of Punishment being lawful because indirectly and at a distance it may be useful I suppose upon cooler thoughts you will be apt to suspect that however Sufferings may promote the Salvation of those who make a good use of them and so set men surer in the right way or higher in a state of glory yet those who make men unduly suffer will have the heavier Account and greater weight of guilt upon them to sink them deeper in the Pit of perdition and that therefore they should be warn'd to take take care of so using their Power Because whoever be gainers by it they themselves will without repentance and amendment be sure to be losers But by granting that the Magistrate misapplies his Power when he punishes those who have the Right on their side whether it be to bring them to his own Religion or whether it be to bring them to consider reasons and arguments proper to convince them you grant all that the Author contends for All that he endeavours is to shew the bounds of Civil Power and that in punishing others for Religion the Magistrate misapplies the Force he has in his hands and so goes beyond Right beyond the limits of his Power For I do not think the Author of the Letter so vain I am sure for my part I am not as to hope by Arguments though never so clear to reform presently all the Abuses in this matter Especially whilst men of Art and Religion endeavour so industriously to palliate and disguise what truth yet sometimes unawares forces from them Do not think I make a wrong use of your saying the Magistrate misapplies his Power when I say you therein grant all that the Author contends for For if the Magistrate misapplies or makes a wrong use of his Power when he punishes in matters of Religion any one who is in the Right though it be but to make him consider as you grant he does he also misapplies or makes wrong use of his Power when he punishes any one whomsoever in Matters of Religion to make him consider For every one is here Judg for himself what is Right And in matters of Faith and Religious Worship another cannot judg for him So that to punish any one in Matters of Religion tho it be but to make him consider is by your own Confession beyond the Magistrate's Power And that punishing in matters of Religion is beyond the Magistrate's Power is what the Author contends for You tell us in the following words All the hurt that comes to them by it is only the suffering some tolerable Inconveniences for their follâ—…ing the Light of their own Reason and the Dictates of their own Consciences which certainly is no such mischief to Mankind as to make it more elegible that there should be no such Power vested in the Magistrate but the care of every Man's Soul should be left to himself alone as this Author demands it should be that is that every Man should be suffer'd quietly and without the least Molestation either to take no care at all of his Soul if he be so pleased or in doing it to follow his own groundless Prejudices or unaccountable Humour or any crafty Seducer whom he may think fit to take for his Guide Why should not the care of every Man's Soul be left to himself rather than the Magistrate Is the Magistrate like to be more concern'd for it Is the Magistrate like to take more care of it Is the Magistrate commonly more careful of his own than other Men are of theirs Will you say the Magistrate is less expos'd in matters of Religion to Prejudices Humours and Crafty Seducers than other Men If you cannot lay your Hand upon your Heart and say all this What then will be got by the change And why may not the care of every Man's Soul be left to himself Especially if a Man be in so much danger to miss the truth who is suffer'd quietly and without the least Molestation either to take no care of his Soul if he be so pleased or to follow his own Prejudices c. For if want of Molestation be the dangerous state wherein Men are likeliest to miss the right way it must be confessed that of all Men the Magistrate is most in danger to be in the wrong and so the unfittest if you take the care of Mens Souls from themselves of all Men to be intrusted with it For he never meets with that great and only Antidote of yours against Error which you here call Molestation He never has the benefit of your Sovereign Remedy Punishment to make him consider which you think so necessary that you look on it as a most dangerous State for Men to be without it and therefore tell us 't is every Man's true Interest not to be left wholly to himself in matters of Religion Thus Sir I have gone through your whole Treatise and as I think have omitted nothing in it material If I have I doubt not but I shall hear of it And now I refer it to your self as well as to the Judgment of the World Whether the Author of the Letter in saying no Body hath a Right or you in saying the Magistrate hath a Right to use force in Matters of Religion has most Reason In the mean time I leave this request with you That if ever you write again about the means of bringing Souls to Salvation which certainly is the best design any one can imploy his Pen in you would take care not to prejudice so good a Cause by ordering it so as to make it look as if you writ for a Party I am SIR Your most Humble Servant PHILANTHROPUS May 27. 1690. FINIS Pag. 12 13 14. Pag. 1. Pag. 2. Pag. 49. Pag. 7. Pag. 3. Pag. 4. Pag. 5. Pag. 5. Pag. 13. Pag. 14. Pag. 23. Pag. 5. Pag. 5. Pag. 16. Pag. 5. Mark 4.24 Pag. 6. Pag. 10. Ezek. 11.5 7. Pag. 10. Pag. 11. Pag. 11. Pag. 20. Pag. 26. Pag. 12. Pag. 5. Pag. 10. Pag. 27 Pag. 23. Pag. 11. Pag. 27. Pag. 12. Pag. 13. Pag. 14. Pag. 20. Pag. 6 7 8 9 10. Pag. 22. Pag. 12. Pag. 22. Pag. 26. Pag. 22. Pag. 12. Pag. 21. Pag. 25. Pag. 26. Pag. 12. Pag. 10. Pag. 12. Pag. 24. Pag. 15. Pag. 12. P. 14. P. 13 14. P. 26. P. 13 14 P. 21. P. 24. P. 25. P. 15. P. 16. P. 17. P. 18. P. 19. P. 21. P. 21. P. 20. P. 22. P. 22. P. 7. P. 26. P. 15. P. 16. P. 26.
of the Justice of their Cause Here then you allow that taking away Mens Estates or Liberty and Corporal Punishments are apt to drive away both Sufferers and Spectators from the Religion that makes use of them rather than to it And so these you renounce Now if you give up Punishments of a Man in his Person Liberty and Estate I think we need not stand with you for any other Punishments may be made use of But by what follows it seems you shelter your self under the name of Severities For moderate Punishments as you call them in another place you think may be serviceable indirectly and at a distance serviceable to bring Men to the Truth And I say any sort of Punishments disproportioned to the Offence or where there is no fault at all will always be Severity unjustifiable Severity and will be thought so by the Sufferers and By-standers and so will usually produce the Effects you have mentioned contrary to the Design they are used for Not to profess the National Faith whilst one believes it not to be true not to enter into Church-Communion with the Magistrate as long as one judges the Doctrine there professed to be erroneous or the Worship not such as God has either prescribed or will accept this you allow and all the World with you must allow not to be a fault But yet you would have Men punished for not being of the National Religion that is as you your self confess for no fault at all Whether this be not Severity nay so open and avow'd Injustice that it will give Men a just Prejudice against the Religion that uses it and produce all those ill Effects you there mention I leave you to consider So that the name of Severities in opposition to the moderate Punishments ' you speak for can do you no Service at all For where there is no Fault there can be no moderate Punishment All Punishment is immoderate where there is no Fault to be punished But of your moderate Punishment we shall have occasion to speak more in another place It suffices here to have shewn that whatever Punishments you use they are as likely to drive Men from the Religion that uses them as to bring them to the Truth and much more likely as we shall see before we have done And so by your own Confession they are not to be used One thing in this Passage of the Author it seems appears absurd to you that he should say That to take away Mens Lives to make them Christians was but an ill way of expressing a Design of their Salvation I grant there is great Absurdity some where in the case But it is in the Practice of those who persecuting Men under a pretence of bringing them to Salvation suffer the Temper of their Good-will to betray it self in taking away their Lives And whatever Absurdities there be in this way of proceeding there is none in the Author's way of expressing it as you would more plainly have seen if you had looked into the Latin Original where the words are Vita denique ipsâ privant ut fideles ut salvi siant Pag. 5. which tho more literally might be thus render'd To bring them to the Faith and to Salvation yet the Translator is not to be blamed if he chose to express the Sense of the Author in words that very lively represented the extream Absurdity they are guilty of who under pretence of Zeal for the Salvation of Souls proceed to the taking away their Lives An Example whereof we have in a neighbouring Country where the Prince declares he will have all his Dissenting Subjects sav'd and pursuant thereunto has taken away the Lives of many of them For thither at last Persecution must come As I fear notwithstanding your talk of moderate Punishments you your self intimate in these words Not that I think the Sword is to be used in this business as I have sufficiently declared already but because all coactive Power resolves at last into the Sword since all I do not say that will not be reformed in this matter by lesser Penalties but that refuse to submit to lesser Penalties must at last fall under the stroke of it In which words if you mean any thing to the businesâ—… in hand you seem to have a reserve for greater Punishments when lesser are not sufficient to bring Men to be convinced But let that pass You say If Force be usâ—…d not instead of Reason and Arguments that is not to convince by its own proper Efficacy which it cannot do c. I think those who make Laws and use Force to bring Men to Church-Conformity in Religion seek only the Compliance but concern themselves not for the Conviction of those they punish and so never use Force to convince For pray tell me When any Dissenter conforms and enters into the Church-Communion is he ever examined to see whether he does it upon Reason and Conviction and such Grounds as would become a Christian concern'd for Religion If Persecution as is pretended were for the Salvation of Mens Souls this would be done and Men not driven to take the Sacrament to keep their Places or to obtain Licenses to sell Ale for so low have these holy Things been prostituted who perhaps knew nothing of its Institution and considered no other use of it but the securing some poor secular Advantage which without taking of it they should have lost So that this Exception of yours of the use of Force instead of Arguments to convince Men I think is needless those who use it not being that ever I heard concern'd that Men should be convinced But you go on in telling us your way of using Force only to bring Men to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince them but which without being forced they would not consider And say you Who can deny but that indirectly and at a distance it does some Service towards bringing Men to imbrace that Truth which either through Negligence they would never acquaint themselves with or through Prejudice they would reject and condemn unheard Whether this way of Punishment is like to increase or remove Prejudice we have already seen And what that Truth is which you can positively say any Man without being forced by Punishment would through carelesness never acquaint himself with I desire you to name Some are call'd at the third some at the ninth and some at the eleventh hour And whenever they are call'd they imbrace all the Truth necessary to Salvation But these slips may be forgiven amongst so many gross and palpable Mistakes as appear to me all through your Discourse For Example You tell us that Force used to bring Men to consider does indirectly and at a distance some Service Here now you walk in the dark and endeavour to cover your self with Obscurity by omitting two necessary parts As first who must use this Force which tho you tell us not here
yet by other parts of your Treatise 't is plain you mean the Magistrate And secondly you omit to say upon whom it must be used who it is must be punished And those if you say any thing to your purpose must be Dissenters from the National Religion those who come not into Church-Communion with the Magistrate And then your Proposition in fair plain terms will stand thus If the Magistrate punish Dissenters only to bring them to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper to convince them who can deny but that indirectly and at distance it may do Service c. towards bringing Men to embrace that Truth which otherwise they would never be acquainted with c. In which Proposition 1. There is something impracticable 2. Something unjust And 3. Whatever Efficacy there is in Force your way apply'd to bring Men to consider and be convinced it makes against you 1. It is impracticable to punish Dissenters as Dissenters only to make them consider For if you punish them as Dissenters as certainly you do if you punish them alone and them all without exception you punish them for not being of the National Religion And to punish a Man for not being of the National Religion is not to punish him only to make him consider unless not to be of the National Religion and not to consider be the same thing But you will say the design is only to make Dissenters consider and therefore they may be punished only to make them consider To this I reply It is impossible you should punish one with a design only to make him consider whom you punish for something else besides want of Consideration or if you punish him whether he consider or no as you do if you lay Penalties on Dissenters in general If you should make a Law to punish all Stammerers could any one believe you if you said it was designed only to make them leave Swearing Would not every one see it was impossible that punishment should be only against Swweating when all Stammerers were under the penalty Such a proposal as this is in it self at first sight monstrously absurd But you must thank your self for it For to lay penalties upon Stammerers only to make them not swear is not more absurd and impossible than it is to lay Penalties upon Dissenters only to make them consider 2. To punish Men out of the Communion of the National Church to make them consider is unjust Tlsey are punished because out of the National Church And they are out of the National Church because they are not yet convinced Their standing out therefore in this State whilst they are not convinced not satisfied in their Minds is no Fault and therefore cannot justly be punished But your method is Punish them to make them consider such Reasons and Arguments as are proper to convince them Which is just such Justice as it would be for the Magistrate to punish you for not being a Cartesian only to bring you to consider such Reasons and Arguments as are proper and sufficient to convince you When it is possible 1. That you being satisfied of the truth of your own Opinion in Philosophy did not judg it worth while to consider that of Des Cartes 2. It is possible you are not able to consider and examine all the Proofs and Grounds upon which he endeavours to establish his Philosophy 3. Possibly you have examined and can sind no Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince you 3. What ever indirect Efficacy there be in Force apply'd by the Magistrate your way it makes against you Force used by the Magistrate to bring Men to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince them but which without being forced they would not consider may say you be serviceable indirectly and at a distance to make Men imbrace the Truth which must save them And thus say I it may be serviceable to bring Men to receive and imbrace Falshood which will destroy them So that Force and Punishment by your own confession not being able directly by its proper Efficacy to do Men any good in reference to their future Estate though it be sure directly to do them harm in reference to their present condition here and indirectly and in your way of applying it being proper to do at least as much harm as good I desire to know what the Vsefulness is which so much recommends it even to a degree that you pretend it needful and necessary Had you some new untry'd Chymical Preparation that was as proper to kill as to save an infirm Man of whose Life I hope you would not be more tender than of a weak Brother's Soul would you give it your Child or try it upon your Friend or recommend it to the World for its rare Usefulness I deal very favourably with you when I say as proper to kill as to save For Force in your indirect way of the Magistrates applying it to make Men consider those Arâ—…uments that otherwise they would not to make them lend an Ear to those who tell them they have mistaken their Way and offer to shew them the right I say in this Way Force is much more proper and likely to make Men receive and imbrace Error than the Truth 1. Because Men out of the right Way are as apt I think I may say apter to use Force than others For Truth I mean the Truth of the Gospel which is that of the True Religion is mild and gentle and meek and apter to use Prayers and Intreaties than Force to gain a hearing 2. Because the Magistrates of the World or the Civil Soveraigns as you think it more proper to call them being few of them in the right Way not one of ten take which side you will perhaps you will grant not one of an hundred being of the True Religion 't is likely your indirect way of using of Force would do an hundred or at least ten times as much harm as good Especially if you consider that as the Magistrate will certainly use it to force Men to hearken to the proper Ministers of his Religion let it be what it will so you having set no Time nor bounds to this consideration of Arguments and Reasons short of being convinced you under another pretence put into the Magistrate's Hands as much Power to sorce Men to his Religion as any the openest Persecutors can pretend to For what difference I beseech you between punishing you to bring you to Mass and punishing you to bring you to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince you that you ought to go to Mass For till you are brought to consider Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince you that is till you are convinced you are punished on If you reply you meant Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince them of the Truth I answer if you meant so why did
the Salvation of their Souls the End for which you say this Force is to be used judg you But this I am sure Whoever will lend an Ear to all who will tell them they are out of the Way will not have much time for any other Business Sometimes it is To recover Men to so much Sobriety and Reflection as seriously to put the Question to themselves Whether it be really worth their while to undergo such Inconveniences for adhering to a Religion which for any thing they know may be false or for rejecting another if that be the case which for ought they know may be true till they have brought it to the Bar of Reason and given it a fair Trial there Which in short amounts to thus much viz. To make them examine whether their Religion be True and so worth the holding under those Penalties that are annexed to it Dissenters are indebted to you for your great care of their Souls But what I beseech you shall become of those of the National Church every where which make sar the greater part of Mankind who have no such Punishments to make them consider who have not this only Remedy provided sor them but are lest in that deplorable Condition you mention of being suffer'd quietly and without Molestation to take no care at all of their Souls or in doing of it to follow their own Prejudices Humours or some crafty Seducers Need not those of the National Church as well as others bring their Religion to the Bar of Reason and give it a fair trial there And if they need to do so as they must if all National Religions cannot be supposed true they will always need that which you say is the only means to make them do so So that if you are sure as you tell us that there is need of your Method I am sure there is as much need of it in National Churches as any other And so for ought I can see you must either punish them or let others alone Unless you think it reasonable that the sar greater part of Mankind should constantly be without that Soveraign and only Remedy which they stand in need of equally with other People Sometimes the end for which Men must be punished is to dispose them to submit to Instruction and to give a fair hearing to the Reasons are offer'd for the inliâ—…htning their Minds and discovering the Truth to them If their own words may be taken for it there are as sew Dissenters as Consormists in any Country who will not profess they have done and do this And if their own word may not be taken who I pray must be judg You and your Magistrates If so then it is plain you punish them not to dispose them to submit to Instruction but to your Instruction not to dispose them to give a fair hearing to Reasons offer'd for the inlightning their Minds but to give an obedient hearing to your Reasons If you mean this it had been sairer and shorter to have spoken out plainly than thus in fair words of indesinite Signification to say that which amounts to nothing For what Sense is it to punish a Man to dispose him to submit to Instruction and give a fair hearing to Reasons offer'd for the inlightning his Mind and discovering Truth to him who â—…s two or three times a week several 〈◊〉 on purpâ—…se to do iâ—… and that with the hazard of his Liberty or Purse 〈◊〉 you mean your Instructions your Reasons your Truth Which brings us but back to what you have disclaimed plain Persecution for differing in Religion Sometimes this is to be done To prevail with Men to weigh Matters of Religion carefully and impartially Discountenance and Punishment put into one Scale with Impunity and hopes of Preferment put into the other is as sure a way to make a Man weigh impartially as it would be for a Prince to bribe and threaten a Judg to make him judg uprightly Sometimes it is To make Men bethink themselves and put it out of the power of any foolish Humor or unreasonable Prejudice to alienate them from Truth and their own Happiness Add but this to put it out of the power of any Humour or Prejudice of their own or other Mens and I grant the end is good if you can find the means to procure it But why it should not be put out of the Power of other Mens Humour or Prejudice as well as their own wants and will always want a Reason to prove Would it not I beseech you to an indifferent By-stander appear Humour or Prejudice or some thing as bad to see Men who profess a Religion reveal'd from Heaven and which they own contains all in it necessary to Salvation exclude Men from their Communion and persecute them with the Penalties of the Civil Law for not joining in the use of Ceremonies which are no where to be found in that reveal'd Religion Would it not appear Humour or Prejudice or some such thing to a sober impartial Heathen to see Christians exclude and persecute one of the same Faith for things which they themselves confess to be indifferent and not worth the contending for Prejudice Humour Passion Lusts Impressions of Education Reverence and Admiration of Persons Worldly Respects Love of their own Choice and the like to which you justly impute many Mens taking up and persisting in their Religion are indeed good words and so on the other side are these following Truth the right Way inlightning Reason sound Judgment but they signify nothing at all to your purpose till you can evidently and unquestionably shew the World that the latter viz. Truth and the right way c. are always and in all Countries to be found only in the National Church and the former viz. Passion and Prejudice c. only amongst the Dissenters But to go on Sometimes it is To bring Men to take such care as they ought of their Salvation What care is such as Men ought to take whilst they are out of your Church will be hard for you to tell me But you endeavour to explain your self in the following words that they may not blindly leave it to the choice neither of any other Person nor yet of their own Lusts and Passions to prescribe to them what Faith or Worship they shall imbrace You do well to make use of Punishment to shut Passion out of the choice because you know fear of suffering is no Passion But let that pass You would have Men punished to bring them to take such care of their Salvation that they may not blindly leave it to the choice of any other Person to prescribe to them Are you sincere Are you in earnest Tell me then truly Did the Magistrate or National Church any where or yours in particular ever punish any Man to bring him to have this care which you say he ought to take of his Salvation Did you ever punish any
care of their Souls that no other Person might choose for them If it be Truth in general you would have them by Punishments driven to seek that is to offer matter of Dispute and not a Rule of Discipline For to punish any one to make him seek till he sind Truth without a Judg of Truth is to punish for you know not what and is all one as if you should whip a Scholar to make him find out the square Root of a Number you do not know I wonder not therefore that you could not resolve with your self what degree of Severity you would have used nor how long continued when you dare not speak out directly whom you would have punished and are far from being clear to what end they should be under Penalties Consonant to this uncertainty of whom or what to be punished you tell us That there is no question of the Success of this Method Force will certainly do if duly proportioned to the design of it What I pray is the design of it I challeng you or any Man living out of what you have said in your Book to tell me directly what it is In all other Punishments that ever I heard of yet till now that you have taught the World a new Method the Design of them has been to cure the Crime they are denounced against and so I think it ought to be here What I beseech you is the Crime here Dissenting That you say not any where is a Fault Besides you tell us That the Magistrate hath not an Authority to compel any one to his Religion And that you do not require that Men should have no Rule but the Religion of the Country And the Power you ascribe to the Magistrate is given him to bring Men not to his own but to the true Religion If Dissenting be not the Fault is it that a Man does not examine his own Religion and the Grounds of it Is that the Crime your Punishments are designed to cure Neither that dare you say lest you displease more than you satisfy with your new Discipline And then again as I said before you must tell us how far you would have them examin before you punish them for not doing it And I imagine if that were all we required of you it would be long enough before you would trouble us with a Law that should prescribe to every one how far he was to examine Matters of Religion wherein if he fail'd and came short he was to be punished if he perform'd and went in his Examination to the Bounds set by the Law he was acquitted and free Sir when you consider it again you will perhaps think this a case reserv'd to the Great Day when the Secrets of all Hearts shall be laid open For I imagine it is beyond the Power or Judgment of Man in that variety of Circumstances in respect of Parts Tempers Opportunities Helps c. Men are in in this World to determine what is every one's Duty in this great Business of Search Enquiry Examination or to know when any one has done it That which makes me believe you will be of this Mind is that where you undertake for the success of this Method if rightly used it is with a Limitation upon such as are not altogether incurable So that when your Remedy is prepared according to Art which Art is yet unknown and rightly apply'd and given in a due Dose all which are Secrets it will then infallibly cure Whom All that are not incurable by it And so will a Pippin Posset eating Fish in Lent or a Presbyterian Lecture certainly cure all that are not incurable by them For I am sure you do not mean it will cure all but those who are absolutely incurable Because you your self allow one Means left of Cure when yours will not do viz. The Grace of God Your words are What Means is there left except the Grace of God to reduce them but to lay Thorns and Briars in their Way And here also in the place we were considering you tell us The Incurable are to be left to God Whereby if you mean they are to be left to those Means he has ordained for Mens Conversion and Salvation yours must never be made use of For he indeed has prescribed Preaching and Hearing of his Word but as for those who will not hear I do not find any where that he has commanded they should be compell'd or beaten to it There is a third Thing that you are as tâ—…nder and reserv'd in as either naming the Criminal to be punished or positively telling us the End for which they should be punished And that is with what sort of Penalties what degree of Punishment they should be forced You are indeed so pracious to them that you renounce the Severities and Penalâ—…s hithâ—…rto made use of You â—…ell us they should be but 〈◊〉 Penaltiâ—…s But if we ask you what are moderate Penalties you confess you cannot tell us So thâ—…t by Moderate here you yet mean nothing You tell us the outward Force to be apply'd should be duly temper'd But what that due Tempâ—…r is you do not or cannot say and so in effect it signisies just nothing Yet if in this you are not plain and direct all the rest of your Design will signify â—…ing For it being to have some Men and to some End punished Yet if it cannot be found what Punishment is to be used iâ—… 〈◊〉 notwithstanding all you have said utterly useless You tell us modestly That to determine precisely the just measure of the Punishment will require some consideration If the Faults were preciâ—…ly determined and could be provâ—…d it would require no more consideration to determine the Measure of the Punishment in this than it would in â—…ny other casâ—… where those were known But where the Fault is undesined and the Guilt not to be proved as I suppose it will be sound in this present Business of examining it will without doubt require Consideration to proportion the Force to the Design Just so much Consideration as it will require to sit a Coâ—…t to the Moon or proportion a Shooe to the Feet of those who inhabit her For to proportion a Punishment to 〈◊〉 Fault that you do not name and so we in Charity ought to think you do not yet know and a Fault that when you have named it will be imposible to be proved who are or are not guilty of it will I suppose require as much Consideration as to sit a Shooe to Feet whose Size and Shape are not known However you offer some measures whereby to regulate your Punishments which when they are looked into will be sound to be just as good as none they being impossible to be any rule in the case The sirst is So much Force or such Penalties as are or-dinarily sufficient to prevail with men of common discretion and not desperately perverse and
way to make some Men imbrace the Peripatetick Philosophy but not a proper way to find the Truth For perhaps the Peripatetick Philosophy may not be true perhaps a great many have not time nor Parts to Study it perhaps a great many who have studied it cannot be convinced of the truth of it And therefore it cannot be a benefit to the Commonwealth nor one of the Ends of it that these Members of the Society should be disturb'd and diseas'd to no purpose when they are guilty of no fault For just the same reason it cannot be a benefit to â—…ivil Society that Men should be pun shed in Denmark for not being Luâ—…rans in Geneva for not being Calvinists and in Viâ—…nna for not being Papists as a means to make them find out the true Religion For so upon your grounds Men most be treated in those places as well as in England for not being of the Church of England And then I beseech you consider the great benefit will accrue to Men in Society by this method And I suppose it will be a hard thing for you to prove That ever Civil Governments were instituted to punâ—…sh Men for not being of this or that Sect in Religion however by accident indirectly and at a distance it may be an occasion to one perhaps of a thousand or an hundred to study that Controversy which is all you expect from it If it be a Benefit pray tell me what Benefit it is A Civil Benefit it cannot be For Mens Civil Interests are disturb'd injur'd and impair'd by it And what Spiritual Benefit that can be to any multitude of Men to be punâ—…shed for Dissenting from a false or erroneous Prosession I would have you sind out unless it be a Spiritual Benefit to be in danger to be driven into a wrong way For if in all differing Sects one is in the wrong 't is a hundred to one but that from which one Dissents and is punished for Dissenting from is the wrong I grant it is past doubt That the Nature of Man is so covetous of Good that no one would have excluded from any Action he does or from any Institution he is concerned in any manner of Good or Benefit that it might any way yeild And if this be your meaning it will not be denied you But then you speak very improperly or rather very mistakenly if you call such benefits as may any way i. e. indirectly and at a distance or by accident be attain'd by Civil or any other Society the Ends for which it is instituted Nothing can in reason be reckon'd amongst the Ends of any Sâ—…ty but what may in reason be supposed to be designed by those who enter into it â—…ow no body can in reason suppose that any one entâ—…ed into Civil Society for the procuring securing or advancing the salvation of his Soulâ—… when he for that end needed not the Force of Civil Society The procuring therefore sâ—…ing and advancing the Spiritual and Eâ—…ernal Interest of men cannot in reason be reckon'd amongst the Ends of Civil Societies Tho perhaps it might so fall out that in some particular instance some mans spiritual Interest might be advanced by your or any other way of applying Civil Force A Nobleman whose Chappel is decayed or â—…allen may make â—…se of his Dining-room for Praying and Preaching Yet whatever 〈◊〉 were attainable by this use of the room no body can in reason reckon this among the Ends for which it was built no more than the accidental breeding of some Bird in any part of it tho it were a Benefit it yielded could in reason be reckon'd among the Ends of building the House But say you Doubtless Commonwealths are instituted for the attaining of all the Bâ—…nefits which pelitical Government can yield and therefore if the Spiritual and Etâ—…rnal Interests of men may any way be procur'd or advanc'd by Pâ—…litical Government the procuring and advancing those Interests must in all reason be reckâ—…n'd amongst the Eâ—…ds of Civil Sâ—…ciety and so conâ—…quently fall within the compass of the Magistrates Jurisdiction Upon the same Grounds I thus reason Doubtless Churches are instituted â—…or the attaining of all the Benefits which Ecclesiastical Government can yield And therefore if the Temporal and Secular Interests â—…f men maâ—… any way be procured or advanced by Ecclesiasticâ—…l Polâ—…y the 〈◊〉 and advancing those Interests must in all reason be reckoned among the Ends of Religious Societies and so consequently fall within the compass of Church-mens Jurisdiction The Church of Rome has openly made its advantage of Secular Interests to be precured or advanced indirectly and at a distance and in ordâ—…e ad spiritualia all which ways if I mistake not English are comprehended under your any way But I do not remember that any of the Reformed Churches have hitherto directly professed it But there is a time for all things And if the Commonwealth once invades the spiritual Ends of the Church by medling with the Salvation of Souls which she has alway been so tender of who can deny that the Church should have liberty to make her self some amends by Reprisals But Sir however you and I may argue from wrong suppositions yet unless the Apostle Eph. 4 where he reckons up the Church-Officers which Christ had instituted in his Churh had told us they were for some other Ends than for the perfecting of the Saints for the work of the Ministry for the edifying of the Body of Christ the advancing of their secular Interests will scarce be allow'd to be their business or within the compass of their Jurisdiction Nor till it can be shewn that Civil Society is instituted for Spiritual Ends or that the Magistrate has commission to interpose his Authority or use Force in matters of Religion your supposition of Spiritual Benefits indirectly and at a distance attainable by Political Government will never prove the advancing of those Interests by Force to be the Magistrates business and to fall within the compass of his Jurisdiction And till then the Force of the Arguments which the Author has brought against it in the 7th and following Pages of his Letter will hold good Common-wealths or Civil Societies and Governments if you will believe the judicious Mr. Hooker are as St. Peter calls them 1 Pet. 2.13 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the contrivance and institution of man and he shews there for what end viz. for the Punishment of evil doers and the praise of them that do well I do not find any where that it is for the punishment of those who are not in Church Communion with the Magistrate to make them study Controversies in Religion or hearken to those who will tell them they have mistaken their way and offer to show them the right one You must shew them such a Commission if you say it is from God And in all Societies instituted by man the Ends of them can be no other than what the Institutors appointed which I am sure