set forth with the Memories of such Eminent Persons who by a singular Favour of Heaven have been made chosen Vessels for the Propagation of the Religion there profess'd or have sealed the Truth of the Doctrine there delivered with the Effusion of their dearest Bloud This God himself did in a manner direct and approve when filling Bezaleel and Aholiâ—b Exod. 35. 31. with the Spirit of God in Wisdom in Vnderstanding and in Knowledge He Inspir'd them to make Two Cherubims of Gold Exod. 37. 7. on the side of the Mercy Seat openly declaring by this Fact the best Ornaments of his Seat and House here on Earth to be the Images Pictures and Representations of those Divine Spirits who are continually finging Praises to him before his Throne in Heaven This he was pleas'd to suggest to the Jews tho so prone to Idolatry and why should Christians be so Squeamish as not to follow when the Finger of God himself is giving Direction not in any Ceremony particularly relating to that People but in the Ornament of that Place which by his own Order was consecrated to his Presence and Service But 't is not all Christians even of Those Separated from the Communion of his Church that wholy disallow of this Practice there are several degrees amongst them as to this particular The Lutheran Protestants have their Altars and Church Walls set out with the Images and Pictures of the Apostles of the Virgin Mary of Christ upon the Cross c. Other Protestants who think the best temper of Religion to be in the Compounding Luther and Calvin together dare not go so far and therefore instead of Christ and his Apostles expose only two Saints of the old Law Moses and Aaron in their holy Places admitting generally too the Judaical Ornament of the Ark some Cberubims over their Church doors and Windows but nothing of a Cbristian Representation besides a Modern Sainted Queen This is in such Churches where the Clamours of the Croud overrule where nothing more of Cbrist must appear for fear of offending tender Consciences with the looks and smell of Popery whilst yet in other Places as in some Cathedrals and Vniversities where the People don't awe the Clergy where the Charge of Popery is neglected and the Walls and Windows not left as naked as senceless Fears would have them Cbrist and his Apostles stand with as much Veneration as Moses and Aaron elswhere and a Primitive Martyr is as becoming an Ornament as Queen Elizabeth And this seems so reasonable to some true Sons of this Church that they think nothing more suitable to their Retirement where they design to converse with Heaven than a Crucifix thâ— this Practice some think fit to wave for fear of raising Jealousies in their Family and becoming the talk of the Neighbourhood And this which he sees thus approv'd by many and practis'd by some Protestants he owns and declares for the allow'd and establish'd Practice of his Church So that to be a Papist in this particular is nothing more than to think the Pictures of Christ of his Apostles and Saints to be as ornamental in a Cbristian House as others of Relations Benefactors or Emperours c. And not to joyn hands with him who broke in pieces the Image of Christ upon the Cross while he left those of the Two Thieves stand untoucht 'T is to look upon the Cross or Crucifix as proper in a Church to shew that that Place and Congregation belongs to Christ as the Lion and the Vnicorn or Kings Arms to Intimate that they own the King as Supreme Governour 'T is to esteem the Apostles and Martyrs as fit to have place there for preaching the Gospel there deliver'd and ratifying it with their Bloud as Moses and Aaron for publishing the Commandments or as Queen Elizabeth for establishing the Religion by her Statutes As he is a Papist therefore he cannot have a good Opinion of those who love all sorts of Pictures whether of Relations Landskips Monsters Dogs or Devils but can brook nothing of Christ or his Mother who with Satisfaction enough can Admit of Mahomet Luther Calvin a suffering Russel or Sidney The Saviour of the Nation any Prophane or Immodest Picture whatsoever but presently turn Stomach at the sight of the Worlds Redeemer upon the Cross at any Passage of Christs Passion or sacred Mystery of our Religion represented in Colours No better Christians can he esteem those who cannot endure to be without their Signet to shew their Family who cannot see their Shops or Sign-Posts without the Arms of the Company they are Free of who must have their Scutcheon over their Hall doors to publish the Corporation they belong to and yet can allow of nothing to shew they are Christians who can see Crosses on their Houses and Walls both private and public on their Signs Barges their Ships and Colours as often as you will to speak them belonging to Citizens but a Cross to declare themselves Christians they repute as intollerable These he cannot much esteem for their Christianity as to this Point since he sees they are ashamed of nothing but what is to shew them to be Christians Secondly as to what concerns the Respect and Veneration He shews to Sacred Images of Christ his Mother or Apostles c. he does nothing but what Nature and Reason oblige him too and to explicate what this is he needs no more than declare that as a Loyal Wife who has a tender Love and sincere Respect for her Husband cannot chuse from the pressing Impulse of innocent Nature but have a Love and Respect for his Picture and expresses that Love by kissing it and hanging it at her Breast in the same manner He having a hearty Love and true Honour in his Soul for his Blessed Redeemer Apostles and Martyrs of Christ cannot hinder the irresistable force of Nature from having a Respect and Honour for their Pictures and this same Respect he expresses by kissing them placing them in his Oratory the Church c. Again as Christians Honour and Respect the Bible above all other Books and tho it be made of nothing but Paper Ink Leather Pastboard like all other Volumes yet because the Stroks of that Ink are so order'd and joyn'd in that Paper that they Signifie and Represent to him the Doctrine and Passion of Christ c. for this Reason they cannot chuse but Love and Respect and Honour this Book and if in reading and perusing it any more devout than the rest express these Sentiments of their Souls by kissing it never taking it into their Hands but with an awful Reverence with their Heads uncovered and on their bended knees they do nothing but to the Honour and Glory of God and what may without Superstition or Suspicion of giving Idolatrous Worship to the Paper or Ink of that Book be paid to that Sacred Volume and what has been the Practice of many holy Christians and Saints Upon the same Account and for the
the Scripture in their Memory more Texts at their tongue's command more of the Books in their hands but 't is where more care is taken for imprinting the true Sence of these Words in the Vnderstanding of the People and where is us'd the most prudential method for the leading them into the truth of all the Mysteries contain'd in that sacred Volume And in this Point the Papist will yield to none for it is an unquestionable truth that when a Book contains high Mysteries of Religion Mysteries superiour to all Sence and Reason and those not deliver'd in expressions suited to every capacity but obnoxious to various interpretations such as may be wrested by the unlearned and unstable to their own Destruction in this case 't is an unquestionable truth I say that that People is in all probability likely to have more of the true Sence of this Book and to be better informed of the truth of the Mysteries it contains who are instructed in it by the Learned of that Communion and taught it by their Pastors Prelates and those whom God hath placed over them to govern and feed the Flock than any other People who have the Book put into their own hands to read it and search it and satisfie themselves For why Are not the Pastors more capable of teaching the People than the People are to teach themselves Or is it commendable in Scripture only and Religion for every one to be his own Master which in any other matter whosoever doe's it shall be esteem'd a Fool We know Moses Deut. 31. 9. gave the Book of the Law to the Levites to keep and read it every seven years to the People and in King Jehoshaphats reign 2 Chron. 17. 9. the Priests and Levits did read it and teach the People so did Jeremy Jer. 36. by Gods command so Isaiah so Ezekiel so the Levits Nehemiah 8. 8. Read in the Book in the Law of God distinctly and gave the Sence and caus'd them the People to understand the Reading And did not our Blessed Saviour Luc. 4. 17. take the Book of the Prophet and read it and expound it to the People And was not this the Office of the Apostles and Deacons to interpret the Scriptures and instruct their Followers what they were to believe and doe For this intention was Ananias sent to Saul Peter to Cornelius and Philip to the Eunuch who professedly own'd he could not understand the Prophet in so necessary a Point as that of the Messias without an Interpreter How can I understand said he except some man should guide me Act. 8. 31. Since therefore the Papists in delivering the Scripture come nearest to this Method commanded by God in the Old Law prescrib'd and practis'd by Christ and his Apostles in the New what People can be better instructed in the true sence of it and understand more of the Mysteries of the Christian Faith than they With what Reason can it be urg'd against the Vulgar of his Communion that the Scriptures are hid from them that they are bred up in blindness and ignorance Do not the Pastors expound the Scriptures to them do not they instruct them in every Point of their Religion and teach them the whole Duty of a Christian Is it not this they do in their Pulpits in their Catechisms in the Confessionaries in so many hundred spiritual Books plainly laying before them their whole obligation both as to Faith and Good manners And is this to conceal from them the Scripture Is the Word of God hid from them because they have their Pastors to instruct them in it Or are they any ways injur'd because they have learneder men than themselves to teach them Is the Multitude a better Judge of Scripture and more able to discover the truth of it than those whom God has plac'd over them Has God so deserted the Pastors and Prelates of his Church and is the Flock of late become so Wise The Faith of Christ was first planted by Christ's Preaching it to the Multitude by the same way 't was propagated by the Apostles and so it is to be deliver'd down to the end of the World Faith comes by hearing By this means many Barbarous Nations saies St. Irenaeus l. 3. adv har c. 3. believe in Christ have the Doctrine of Salvation written in their Hearts by the Holy Ghost without the help of Books and religiously observe the Traditions believing in one God c. Now 't is certain the Truth of this Christian Faith with all its Mysteries is unquestionably preserv'd in Christs Catholic Church and the People are to receive it and not to find out their Faith and Religion every one for themselves If they are afraid of being deceiv'd when they rely on their Pastors for it they run ten times the hazard when they trust to themselves The Papist therefore is taught that since Christ has a Church upon earth in which is conserv'd the truth of the Gospel 't is safer and more prudential for the People to be instructed in this Truth from the Pastors of this Church and by this means come to the Knowledg of the Word of God that is of its true sence and meaning than by committing the Book it self into the hands of the Multitude and leting every one understand it for themselves He knows 't is a very popular thing and acceptable to the prying Multitude to have a Book at command which directs the Way to Salvation but since 't is not the Book is to save him but the Truth and Doctrine which it teaches he believes 't is better learning this from those who are Wiser and are commissionated from Heaven to teach than to venture at it himself without any Authority The unhappy Divisions among Christians sufficiently inform him that to such Readers as St. Peter calls unreary and ignorant however wise they may think themselves Aâ—ianism may be as obvious in this Book as Christs Divinity and that when such an one undertakes the interpreting of it 't is an hazard whether at the end he comes out Quaker Anabaptist Presbyterian Independent Mugletonian Socinian or Atheist 'T is a Venture whether the Trinity shall have place in his Creed or no whether he 'll allow of Baptism or any Sacrament and whether Cruelty cutting of Throats Oppression Tyranny Dethroning of Kings and Murder of Princes shall not with him become a necessary Duty and a true serving of the Lord. For all these and more damnable Doctrines has he seen preach'd up and practic'd by those who have had the Bible in their Banners who have been esteem'd Searchers of the Word of God and presumptuously made their Comments upon this Sacred Text. And is it not this abuse that has occasion'd so many Schisms and almost broken the Mystical Body of Christ into pieces That whereas all his Followers should be of one mind now no body knows what Religion his Neighbour is of but every Wall now parts Religions more than Seas did heretofore And
others Invisibly profess'd others travel a great way to find it and return back with a May be and it may be 't was under the Rubbish And what if one should here enforce the Argument in The Plain Mans Reply He 's upon Enquiry Who is the Infallible Judge asserted by Catholics and because he don't find Authors agree upon the Point Where he shall find him p. 18. 25. he there concludes them all to be but Triflers and that there 's no such Judge in the World. Would not this conclude as forcibly that there was no Protestant Church in the World before Luther Since being now upon the Search to what Church or Communion one was to have applyed himself in K. Henry the Seventh's time to have been instructed in the True Faith and Doctrine of Christ they generally agree there was such a Church in the World but some send us to Armenia for it some to Greece some to the Hussites some to an Invisible Corner some to a Cloud some to look under the Rubbish What can a Man call this but in the Plain Man's phrase Trifling And yet Plain as he is he stands fair for this same Title of Honour he has so bountifully bestow'd upon others For as others so He tells us p. 10. that True Religion shall never be so far driven out of the World but that it shall always have somewhere or other some that believe and profess it in all things necessary to Salvation I enquire Where these were twenty years before the Pretended Reformation He assures me They were certainly in the World some where or other Great satisfaction to an Enquirer Is not this just as if I were travelling to a certain Town as as 't is in the Plain Mans Reply p. 19. and do ask the next Man I meet which is the right way He tells me 't is a very Cross-Road to find and I may easily miss it But saith he tho' I cannot direct you my self yet there is a Man lives in that Village who knows every step so exactly that if you take him for your Guide you cannot possibly be mistaken Pray say I at what House do's this Honest Man live How may I come to the speech of him Nay saith he I know nothing of all that but you must find him as you can Now suppose every Man in the Village gives me the same wise Answer What an admirable Direction would this prove Is this any thing but Trifling This is just our Case I am enquiring to find out the True Protestant Church before Luther All assure me 't was certainly in the World but when I come to ask Where the Plain Man's Reply is Some where or other Misrepr Tho' they don't agree where 't was just before Luther Yet all agree 't was generally profess'd by the Primitive Christians Represent Then I see we must despair of finding it the thousand Years before Luther And what was the Primitive Church we 'l enquire in our next Publish'd with Allowance LONDON Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XI An Enquiry into the Religion of the Primitive Times and particularly That of Constantine the First Christian Emperor For the satisfaction of those who desire to know whether the Protestant Religion was generally Professed amongst the Christians of those Purer times Represent WE are now to enquire into the Belief and Practice of the Primitive Church and see whether that was Protestant or Catholic But we must first know how many Years or Ages you 'l allow us to look into that is how long you say the True Pretestant Religion as now establish'd was profess'd and practis'd Anciently and Generally among Christians after the Apostles days before corruption crept in upon it Setle this Point and then we 'll proceed Misrepresent If you are in good earnest He give you some account of this The Author of the Discourse Concerning a Judge of Controversie lately publish'd says p. 15. For Authority We appeal to the best Authority of the Christian Church the Three First Ages after the Apostles So that I presume by him the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally profess'd and practis'd to the year of Christ 400. Calvin Reynolds and Fulk own the Church of Rome to have continu'd in the Doctrine of the Apostles that is Protestant in the time of Cyprian Jerom Austin the last of whom liv'd till the year 430. Agen in the Discourse entitled Papists not Mis-represented by Protestants 'tis said p. 56. The Tradition of the Church remain'd Clear and Strong till after the First Four General Councils the last of which being that of Chalcedon establish'd in England by Act of Parliament An. 1 Eliz. was held in the Year 450. So that I may allow you to search into the Primitive Church for the first four hundred and fifty years for so long I question not the Protestant Religion was Generally profess'd and practis'd and that Religion as then practis'd is the same as now establish'd by Law here in England and 't is a shame You and Yours shou'd so declaim against it Represent Pardon me here for I profess my self to have so great a veneration for the Primitive Church that I resolve to believe as that believ'd and if it appears that That Church was the Protestant Church I le e'en be Protestant to morrow But let us go on upon our Enquiry You say you have reason to believe the Protestant Religion was Generally profess'd in the Primitive Times for the First Four hundred and fifty years For your satisfaction and mine we 'll take a view of the Christian Religion as then profess'd And that we may proceed with more security and certainty we 'll not descend at present so low as you allow but look at it as 't was practis'd in the time of Constantine the Great who died about the year 337. I make choice of this time because This was the First 〈◊〉 that gave liberty for the Publick Profession of Christianity and establish'd it by Law. 'T was under him all those Pious Learned and Holy Men first appear'd wâ—o till then had been confin'd by cruel Persâ—câ—â—ors to Caves Rocks and Wildernesses 'T was under him the First General Council of Niâ—e was held which we all venerate and whose Creed we all recite and assent to as Apostolical Misrepresent I approve the circumstances For if ever Christianity was Pure and Vncorrupt it must certainly be then when it first shew'd it self to the world and rais'd up its Head from under Perfecution And now you put me in mind of it Dr. Swadlin in his Answer to the 36 Questions reckons This Emperor Constantine the Great for one of the Fathers or Professors of the Proteâ—tant Relition in old times Answ 11. So that I have no exceptions against Him. But who shall give us the account of the Religion then Profess'd Represent Ee'n the Fathers or Professors that then liv'd
And what think you now Misrepresenter tell me your Opinion was the Protestant Religion Anciently and Generally profess'd and practis'd in these Primitive Times when Constantine govern'd both the Western and Eastern World Do's the Church in his time practising as you have now seen acknowledg'd by unquestionable Authorities look like a Protestant Church If you know what 't is to be a Protestant tell me your mind Was Constantine and his Church Protestants or no Misrepresent You have hunted out for all the Superstâ—tions Errors and Oversights of that Age and now ask Whether the Professors were Protestants And I answer you They were Protestants as to the Doctrine of the Gospel and Creed which they profess'd tho' not as to their Oversights and Errors Represent That is to say in plain English They were Protestants as the Papists now are Protestants Any honest man by your appeal to and Pretext of Reformation according to the Primitive Times would have expected to have found a Protestant Religion profess'd and practis'd in those times as 't is now here in this Nation by Law establish'd And yet when we have taken a Prospect of those Primiâ—ive Ages we find the Christians then living Professors of no other Protestancy than such as is seen practis'd at this day in their Majesties Chappels at White-Hall Somerset house and St. James's and that I think is a Protestancy which is call'd Popery Misrepresent Why in our Reformation we are no more oblig'd to take in the Errors of Constantine 's time than those Corruptions we found in the time of Henry 8. No we Reform according to the Purity of the Gospel and have no other Rule than that of the Word of God Instructing and Directing us And as for all Superstitions they are alike rejected by us tho' some have Antiquity to plead in their behalf Represent Then I see however you pretend your Reformation has reduc'd Christianity to that state as 't was profess'd in the Primitive Times Yet when we come to look into those times thinking to find a Flourishing Uncontrol'd Protestancy Generally and Publickly Profess'd we are still as far to seek for 't as before and all that appears is the Doctrine of the Creed and Gospel profess'd but together with what you call the Errors and Superstitions of Popery so that to be a Protestant according to the Primitive Times is nothing else but to be a Papist Certainly this must be a very surprising disappointment to some to find Constantine the Great and Eusebius his Historian to be such kind of Popish Protestants as these who yet are set down by your Dr. Swadlin as the Ancient Protestants according to whose Faith and Practice the present Reformation was regulated and against whose Positions says he Ans 11. if we hold any thing name it we answer it prove it we yield So that let me tell you By what I can see as yet when a man has taken the pains to look back to those Primitive Ages he can be no more satisfied where the Protestant Religion as 't is now Reform'd was in the time of Constantine than when Luther began the Reformation but after all his search he must rest contented either with the Plain Mans Reply of its being Home where or other or else with the same It may be as was given to the Parishioner It may be 't was in the Greek in the Abassin and Egyptian Churches amongst the Armenian Christians It may be 't was in a Corner under a Cloud cover'd with Rubbish What if we say 't was no where Famil Discourse betwixt a Minister and Parishioner p. 14. ADVERTISEMENT THis is to give notice That this last Week were sound here in London several Good Protestant Lies concerning Flying Crabs seen in the Chappel at Somerset-house and of the Parish Church of St. James's in the Fields being undermin'd by the Papists and in danger of being demolished by Fire-Balls If the Right Owners will appear they shall be restor'd to them without Cost or Charges and if any will produce them they shall be well rewarded for their Pains Publish'd with Allowance Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel MDC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XII Protestant Historians shew us Popery in the Primitive Church under Constantine but no Protestancy The Christians of that Age never Protested against the Popish Doctrines professedly Taught and Practis'd in those times Therefore they were no Protestants An Enquiry into the Religion of the Ages succeeding Constantine Represent IF you remember at our last meeting Misrepresenter we were looking back into the Primitive Times to see if we could find there the Protestant Religion as 't is now reform'd Generally Profess'd and Practis'd amongst the Christians of that Purer Age. But we lost our labour and all the Hopes You came big with ended in nothing but a disappointment Misrepresent 'T would be a Miracle indeed to find it as long as you have the carrying and management of the Light by which we are to make the Discovery Represent A short memory makes you Unreasonable Have you forgot so soon the very Means and Method by which we enter'd upon our Search were of your own Choice at least by approbation and consent Our business was to make enquiry after the Protestant Religion We agreed to examine the Religion Practis'd in Constantine's time who as your Dr. Swadlin says was a Protestant and in whose time according to your Divines the Protestant Religion was generally profess'd We took an account of the Religion of that Age from Eusebius a Protestant Professor too if you credit Dr. Swadlin and some other Modern Protestants The Translation of Eusebias we made use of was done by a Protestant approv'd and publish'd by Protestants and Printed at Cambridge Anno 1683. a Protestant Vniversity what possibly could be fairer done and more to your advantage And yet after all instead of meeting in those times with the Protestant Religion as now Reform'd we were got in the middle of Good Catholics Professing and Practising their Religion receiv'd from the Apostles pure as yet and uncorrupted as your Fulk and Calvin confess and such as you under the specious Pretext of Reformation have since made Odious and Criminal and done your best to hiss it out of the world Misrepresent The Reformers have preserv'd the Religion of those times Inviolable and have only labour'd to purge Christianity of the Errors then or since that time brought in to deform it Represent This is the proper Mark of the Beast Never a Reformer yet even from Arius to this Day but what has set up his Standard against Pretended Errors and Innovations And this is the stamp they set upon every thing that does not sute with their Humour Fancy or Interest The Reformers of the Reformation go by the same Rule and such as Reform agen upon those that Reform the Reformation still pursue this Method till at last they have
Reform'd away one after t'other all that belongs to Christianity Some reform'd away the greatest part of the holy Ceremonies and Religious Decency observ'd in Churches comes another sort and reform away what These left after them comes a Third and Reform away even the Churches themselves Some made a Reform of the Priestly Vestments retaining the Name of Copes and Miters with the Vse only of a Surplice the next reform the Surplice and the Third reform the Priests and Ministers themselves all out of doors Some began to reform the Sacraments and all were Superstitious but Two others came and thought these Two as Superstitious as the other Five and at last they have reform'd amongst them Religion so far till the only Christianity that is left without Error Corruption or Innovation is that which tho Protestancy still is without ever a Christian in it Misrepresent Certainly you have forgot what you were about and instead of looking for the Protestant Religion you have taken a leap from Constantine down into all the Enthusiasms of our Age. Represent No no We shall soon be back agen I have only given you a hint what 't is you call purging Christianity of Errors and Innovations and what edifying work it makes And by this we shall find there was no Protestant Religion Generally Practis'd and Profess'd amongst Christians in those days of Constantine of which we have lately taken a Survey Misrepresent How so Represent Because if the Protestant Religion had been at that time generally profess'd the Protestants then would have as zealously Protested against what you call the Errors and Innovations in Constantine's time as they did twelve hundred years after in the Reign of King Henry 8. Misrepresent Make that out Represent You know 't is the very Essence of Protestants to Protest against those Doctrines and Practices which they condemn as the Errors and Superstitions of Popery But such Doctrines and Practices there were in Constantine's time as Eusebius and other Historians declare and you your selves own Therefore if the Protestant Religion had been at that time genenerally profess'd they would have Generally Protested against those Doctrines and Practices But there was no General Protestation against those Doctrines and Practices by the Christians in Constantine's time Therefore the Christians in Constantine's time were not Generally Protestants Misrepresent Methinks this gingles something like a Syllogism Represent 'T is to that Tune and I think convincing enough to any serious Considerer that is acquainted with the Spirit of Protestantism Come I dare appeal to your judgment tho' so perversly byass'd for the Case is clear Don't you observe the Protestants that have been in the world ever since Luther's Pretended Reformation have not only Ridicul'd and Condemn'd what they call Romish Errors in the time of Henry 8. but likewise condemn the same practis'd as they own heretofore in the time of Constantine And here I ask of you Don't you think if Luther and his Fellow-Reformers had hapned in Constantine's time they would as certainly have Reform'd the Christian Religion of Constantine as they did afterwards of Hen. 8. Their loud Protesting against and condemning the Pretended Errors of both the One and the Others Religion is a sufficient intimation what they would have done had the Sins of Christendom so early provok'd the Divine Vergeance and brought them before into the World. Since therefore 't is evident it cannot be made appear That the Christians in Constantine's time did Protest against any such pretended Errors as the Protestants have done ever since Luther 't is evident there were no such Christians in those times as Protestants And however Dr. Swadlin confidently derives the Succession of the Protestant Religion not from the Waldenses Wicklifists and Hussits but from Constantine Eusebius c. You have now seen the One Practising the Other relating such Doctrines as are by Protestants now marked out for Superstitious without the lest guilt of Conscience or making any the least Protestation against them and what kind of Protestants these must have been who were thus deep in Popery I leave you to consider Only one thing still I le propose to you We have made hitherto some enquiry into the Christianity of those Former Times and look'd back upon those Christians Now suppose it had been your Fate to have been in those times just Protestant as you are at this day Had you gone into their Churches and seen there the lighted Candles the appeasing the Deity with Vnbloody Sacrifices and Mystic Consecrations Had you seen the Awful Translation of Holy Relicks Constantine prostrate at the Sepulcher of the Apostles and imploring their Intercession had you seen him signing his Forehead with the Cross and with great veneration repositing part of the Holy Cross for the security of the City Had you seen him Fasting and chastising his Body honouring Monks and Virgins by Vow consecrated to God Attributing Primacy to the Bishop of Rome and Subjecting all Christian Churches to him Had you seen the Body of the Deceas'd Emperor in the Church upon a stately Throne with the Priests and numerous Crouds in Tears and Sighs praying for his Soul Had you seen I say in those days the Christians serving God and publickly exercising their Religion in this manner would you have thought them Protestants Would this have agreed with the Notion of Protestantism you have now in your Head Or tell me seriously should you not have run out of their Churches and heartily Protested against them as Rank Papists And yet these are the Christians your Divines appeal to as the Antient Professors of the Protestant Religion 'T is according to these times they say they have Reform'd Christianity And that the Religion as now establish'd by Law in this Nation is the same as was then Antiently and Generally profess'd and practis'd in those Primitive Times Misrepresent You stand close tied up to Constantine s' time and there make your boasts You know we appeal to the First Five or Six Hundred Years and 't is not reason you shou'd confine the search to so narrow Bounds as the Reign of one Emperour Represent Wee 'll go forward therefore and see what was the Religion of all these Ages and because we cannot learn this better than from the Belief and Doctrine of the Eminent and Learn'd Fathers of of those Times wee 'll see what Information their Works will give us as they are acknowledg'd by the Centurists and other Protestant Historians and Writers The Century-Writers you must know give an Historical account of those Ages and in their Fourth Century dedicated to Q. Elizabeth and affirm'd by Protestants to be an Excellent Work worthy of immortal Memory they charge the Fathers of those Antient and Purer times with the holding the Doctrines as follow viz. with Justification by Works Merit Confession of Sins to a Priest Vnwritten Tradition Invocation of Saints Purgatory with Altars so call'd of Sacrifice offer'd upon them and Consecrated with the Sign of the
in Three of them by his Legates or Deputy They shew great Respect to his Letters and follow his Direction They hear him call'd their Head without Contradiction and call him so Themselves They own him to have the Care of the Vineyard vâ—z the Whole Church committed by Christ to his Charge Now how can I imagine the Bishops there assembled to be Protestants since You and I that know what kind of things Protestants are are very well assar'd that had those Prelates been Protetants instead of these Honourable Titles and Respects they had e'en set upon Him with those Course Protestant Complements of Antichrist Whore of Babylon Vsurper c. with a peremptory Demand of What had he to meddle there with his Legates and 〈◊〉 of Direction in the 〈◊〉 Church whose Diocese like other Bishops was no other but what was over-lookt by the Seven Hills You know if the Centurists Osiander Mr. Cartwright Bibliander Dr. Whitaker Mr. Bale or Mr. Beard had been there they had in such Honourable Phrases Entitled him to Tyranny and Vsurpation as they have since with other of their Brethren done in their Writings But since instead of these Reform'd Complements I find the Pope Treated by those Four First General Councils with all Submission Respect and Veneration how can my Reason be convinc'd that those Bishops and Divines there assembled were Protestants Do you but imagine with your self that Pope Sylvester Damasus Celestine and Leo instead of Directing their Legates and Letters to those First General Councils had sent them to a Synod of Dort of Charenton to such Committees for Religion or Convocations as have been at any time held in these Northern Climates since the time of Lather's Pretended Reformation what Reception do you think they would have had Can you imagine they would have given to the Legates the most Honourable Seats as was done in those Councils Would they be heard to stile the Pope the Successor of Peter and Their Head with that awful Silence as was done there Would the Pope's Orders and Directions be receiv'd with that Submission as was done by those Venerable Synods Misrepres Troth I am apt to believe they would not Repres Then I am apt to believe and have Reason for 't that the Prelates and Divines of those Four First General Councils were nothing like These that have been of late assembled in our National Synods and Convocations that is No Protestants For if your Protestant Religion were really the same Religion as was then Profess'd in the time of those First Councils the Behaviour of those Ancient Prelates had certainly been no other than such as might rationally be expected from our Modern Protestant Synods and Convocations had the same Legates and Letters been Directed from the Pope to them and yet how Vast a difference there is betwixt what Those did heretofore and These would do now were they in the like Circumstances You your self cannot but acknowledge and whilst you own that Those Primitive Bishops of the Ancient and yet Pure Church did behave themselves so unlike Protestants how can I who am to govern my self by Reason conclude them to have been Protestants Come you exact too hard a Task of me if you expect I shall believe that the Primitive Christians were Protestants you must e'en do more than Say so you must shew that those Ancient Doctors did behave themselves in their Pulpits like our Modern Doctors That They did then in their Sermons rail against the Pope and endeavour to prove Him Antichrist That Obeying and Believing the Catholic Church was going Blindfold and Pinning Faith upon Sleeves That Praying to Saints was Idolatry and Praying for the Souls departed an Idle Superstition and a Tricking them to Heaven I have shewn you the same Popish Doctrines Profess'd heretofore as you now find at this day shew me but such Damning Sermons Preach'd against them heretofore and you 'l do something Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XIV No Protestant Harangue in the First Four General Councils to fill the Fathers Heads with Fears and Jealousies No Canons made by the said Fathers to prevent the Growth of Popery at that Time professedly Taught and Practis'd is an Argument that the Fathers of those Councils were no Protestants Representer I Hope you are by this time satisfi'd Misrepresenter that the Professors of such Doctrines and Principles as you call Popish were every where to be found in the Time of the Primitive Church when you say the Protestant Religion was Generally Profess'd amongst Christians Misrepresent I very freely acknowledge That in the Time of the Primitive Church and of the First Four General Councils there were very many Eminent Men thro' Infirmity or Blindness Embracing and Professing Popish Doctrines This I will not be so obstinate as to deny because I find most of the Ancient Fathers of the Church branded with the Mark of Popish Errors by Our own Century-Writers and other Protestant Divines Hierome Ambrose Austin Athanasius Gregory Chrysostome and the rest of them do not escape this Censure They all had their Failings in this Point They câ—ndescended too much to the Infirmity of their Times and in many of their Doctrines knew not what they said or Taught But still the Church was Protestant and the Four First General Councils as I told you before were all Protestants You may claim some Particular Doctors of those Times if you will and welcom but for the Church and Councils these were certainly Ours and their Religion was the same True Protestant Religion as is here by Law Establish'd Repres Well I don't know how far Interest or Passion or Education may work in this Point But I cannot bring my Reason and What you say to meet for my Life and yet I have been trying and turning and stretching it every way since our last Meeting and ' twon't do at last For look you now You say Those First General Councils were Protestants This presently raises a Notion in my Head That all those Bishops and Divines there assembled were like our Protestants here in England and I presently resemble them to our Convocations or Parliaments Here I begin to Imagine what so many Divines of Ours would have done in those Times had they been then in Body I consider that the Times were then very Dangerous Popery as you confess began to spread many Eminent Men were infected with its Errors Then think I Certainly if the Fathers in those Councils had been Protestants there could not have been wanting some Zealous Doctor who would have animated the Fathers to the utter Exâ—irpation of those Errors and with a Fervorous Protestant Harangue have prepar'd them for the Enacting of Laws or Canons to prevent the Growth of Popery and sor the Preservation of the Protestant the most Moderate and best Religion in the World. I cannot 〈◊〉 but there would
Time of the First Four General Councils for Teaching and Believing many Points which are of late rejected sor Superstitions of Popery and Inventions of Men Such as attributing Primacy to the See of Rome Tradition Invocation of Saints Honouring the Relicks of Martyrs Prayer for the Dead the Sacrifice of the Mass Transubstantiation c. These and many other such Doctrines Modern Protestants own to have been Taught by the Fathers of the Primitive Church in the Time of the First Councils And now I ask of you Whether the Prelates there assembled did by Canons or Decrees make any Provision against these Doctrines Misrepres I confess I don't find any Canons they made upon this matter Respres How can I believe then that the Reverend Bishops and Divines of those Councils were Protestants You are not ignorant how ill these Doctrines suit with the Protestant Temper You know They look upon the Intercession of Saints as injurious to the Mediation of Christ and Idolatrous The Pope's Primacy is with them an Antichristian Usurpation Honouring Relicks is Superstitious Praying for the Dead an Idle Devotion The Belief of Transubstantiation Unreasonable The Mass an Evacuating of the Sacrifice of the Cross Now can you perswade me that the Fathers of those First Councils could be Protestants and yet let these Doctrines and Practices so Detestable as they must be in their Opinion pass without any Condemnation and Uncensur'd No certainly The Fathers of those Times were more Zealous than so They were Watchful against all Novel Opinions such as were contrary to the Receiv'd Doctrine of the Church and there were no sooner any started tho' in Parts remote from them but they presently took the Alarm and by Writing Preaching Disputing Synods National and Oecumenical did make a most Vigorous Opposition and withstand them And such as continu'd Obstimate in their Errors with Endeavours of drawing Numbers after them and Disturbing the Peace of the Church seldom or never escap'd without the Mark of Heresie or Schism When I consider this State of the Primitive Church happily Flourishing under the Conduct and Care of so many Eminent Prelates and Pastors no less Zealous in Defending their Charge from the Assaults of Innovators and Vpstart Opinions than in Preserving Them in the Receiv'd Doctrines from the Apostles I cannot imagine how to Condemn them assembled in Full Council of such Gross Stupidity or Inexcusable Connivance as they must of necessity be guilty of in passing over so Considerable an Evil which had then overspread the greatest part of the Church And yet if I am to take Them for Protestants they of necessity fall under these Censures in not Reproving or Condemning those Popish Doctrines which as we are assur'd from Modern Protestants in the Times of those Councils had prevail'd upon such great Numbers of the Christian World. And Therefore since as you confess They made no Provision by Decrees or Canone against those Doctrines I am throughly perswaded They were no Protestants Misrepres Then I le warrant you you take them all for Good Papists Repres I must take 'em for Papists or Nothing For I am confident none but Papists could see so much Popery Taught and Practis'd as We have seen from Eusebius and Others under Constantine and in the Time of the First Four Councils and yet pass it by in Silence without Censure or Reproof Your Friend therefore who tells the World that the Protestant Religion was Anciently and Generally Profess'd would do well to Explicate to the Curious what kind of Protestancy that was heretofore which did agree so well with So much Popery If he do's not clear this Point well many others I believe besides my self will begin to suspect that the Fathers and Prelates assembled in those First Councils of the Primitive Church were rather Papists than Protestants Publish'd with Allowance Printed by Henry Hills Printer to the King 's Most Excellent Majesty for his Houshold and Chappel M DC LXXX VI. THE CATHOLIC REPRESENTER CHAP. XV. The Appeal of Protestants to the Primitive Fathers shewn Injurious to Protestancy from the Concessions of Protestant Writers Luther the Apostle of the Reformation disclaims the Doctrine of the Fathers as not being for his purpose of Reforming Misrepresenter I HAVE a Scruple this Morning that I have given you too much room to look for the Protestant Religion in the Primitive Times If I had Confin'd your Search within a Narrower compass of years you had discover'd more Protestancy and less Popery Repris I have not taken in more Years than you agreed to nor more than are generally allow'd by Protestants You know 't is the Bulwark of the Pretended Reformers to make their Appeal to the Belief and Practice of the Primitive Church They acknowledge their Separation from the Church of Rome as it was in the Time of their Reformation and they justifie themselves for so doing because the Church of Rome as they pretend had faln from the Purity of Doctrine profess'd by the Primitive Church into Gross Errors Superstition and Idolatry And therefore since the Church of Rome would not Reform it self 't was necessary They should Separate from it so to Reform the Abuses and Corruptions that had crept in upon Christianity and bring it back to that State of Purity in which it had been practis'd by their Forefathers of the Primitive Church Misrepres Yes this is the True Reason of the Protestants Separating themselves from the Church of Rome and therefore I don't doubt but the Religion as here Establish'd amongst us by Law is the same as was heretofore Generally profess'd by the Primitive Church But the Question is How many Years the Primitive Church continu'd Pure and Uncorrupt that is Protestant as we are at this Day For I see you have look'd back into some Ages Past which I took for Protestant and there has appear'd then so much Popery publickly Exercis'd and Profess'd that I have some reason to suspect that the Christians of those Times were rather Papists than Protestants and that you have been something insincere in this Point and not made your Enquiry so far back as you ought Repres 'T is your Interest rather to suspect Me than the Weakness of Your own Cause But tell me How many Years did you allow me wherein to search for the Protestant Religion in the Past Ages of the Primitive Church Misrepres I gave you the Compass of the first Five hundred Years after Christ And in this I a am sure there was no Mistake of mine For Our Dr. Morton says Prot. Ap. p. 354. that It has been the Constant Prosession of Protestants to stand to the Judgment of Antiquity for the continuance of the First Four hundred Years and more in all things And ib. 573. be says that Protestants are so far from suffering the limitation of the First 440 Years that they give the Romanists the Scope of the First Five or Six hundred Years Bishop Jewel too our Champion and Apologist makes his Challenge