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reason_n doctrine_n proof_n use_v 7,134 5 9.7397 5 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A30411 A relation of a conference held about religion at London, the third of April, 1676 by Edw. Stillingfleet ... and Gilbert Burnet, with some gentlemen of the Church of Rome. Burnet, Gilbert, 1643-1715.; Stillingfleet, Edward, 1635-1699. 1676 (1676) Wing B5861; ESTC R14666 108,738 278

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which_o to_o some_o degree_n will_v again_o encourage_v the_o reader_n and_o so_o i_o leave_v he_o to_o the_o perusal_n of_o what_o follow_v the_o relation_n of_o the_o conference_n monday_n afternoon_n the_o three_o of_o april_n 1676._o d._n s._n and_o m._n b._n go_v to_o m._n l._n it_o be_v as_o they_o have_v be_v desire_v by_o l._n t._n to_o confer_v with_o some_o person_n upon_o the_o ground_n of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n separate_n from_o rome_n and_o to_o show_v how_o unreasonable_a it_o be_v to_o go_v from_o our_o church_n to_o they_o about_o half_a a_o hour_n after_o they_o come_v in_o s.p.t._n mr._n w._n and_o three_o more_o there_o be_v present_v seven_o or_o eight_o lady_n three_z other_o churchman_n and_o one_o or_o two_o more_o when_o we_o be_v all_o set_a d._n s._n say_v to_o s.p.t._n that_o we_o be_v come_v to_o wait_v on_o they_o for_o justify_v our_o church_n that_o he_o be_v glad_a to_o see_v we_o have_v gentleman_n to_o deal_v with_o from_o who_o he_o expect_v 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in_o question_n be_v clear_o prove_v from_o scripture_n then_o n._n n._n insist_v to_o speak_v of_o the_o corporal_a presence_n and_o desire_v to_o know_v upon_o what_o ground_n we_o reject_v it_o m._n b._n say_v if_o we_o have_v no_o better_a reason_n to_o believe_v christ_n be_v corporal_o present_a in_o the_o sacrament_n than_o the_o jew_n have_v to_o believe_v that_o every_o time_n they_o do_v eat_v their_o pascha_fw-la the_o angel_n be_v pass_v by_o their_o house_n and_o smite_v the_o first_o bear_v of_o the_o egyptians_n then_o we_o have_v no_o reason_n at_o all_o but_o so_o it_o be_v that_o we_o have_v no_o more_o reason_n n._n n._n deny_v this_o and_o say_v we_o have_v more_o reason_n m._n b._n say_v all_o the_o reason_n we_o have_v to_o believe_v it_o be_v because_o christ_n say_v this_o be_v my_o body_n but_o moses_n say_v of_o the_o paschal_n festivity_n this_o be_v the_o lord_n passover_n which_o be_v always_o repeat_v by_o the_o jew_n in_o that_o anniversary_n now_o the_o lord_n passover_n be_v the_o lord_n pass_v by_o the_o israelite_n when_o he_o slay_v the_o first-born_a of_o egypt_n if_o then_o we_o will_v understand_v christ_n word_n in_o the_o strict_o literal_a sense_n we_o must_v in_o the_o same_o sense_n understand_v the_o word_n of_o moses_n but_o if_o we_o understand_v the_o word_n of_o moses_n in_o any_o other_o sense_n as_o the_o commemoration_n of_o the_o lord_n passover_n than_o we_o ought_v to_o understand_v christ_n word_n in_o the_o same_o sense_n the_o reason_n be_v clear_a for_o christ_n be_v to_o substitute_v this_o holy_a sacrament_n in_o room_n of_o the_o jewish_a pascha_fw-la and_o he_o use_v in_o every_o thing_n as_o much_o as_o can_v agree_v with_o his_o bless_a design_n form_n as_o nea●_n the_o jewish_a custom_n as_o can_v be_v there_o be_v no_o reason_n to_o think_v he_o do_v use_v the_o word_n this_o be_v my_o body_n in_o any_o other_o sense_n than_o the_o jew_n do_v this_o be_v the_o lord_n passover_n n._n n._n say_v the_o disparity_n be_v great_a first_o christ_n have_v promise_v beforehand_o he_o will_v give_v they_o his_o body_n second_o it_o be_v impossible_a the_o lamb_n can_v be_v the_o lord_n passover_n in_o the_o literal_a sense_n because_o a_o action_n that_o have_v be_v past_o some_o hundred_o of_o year_n before_o can_v not_o be_v perform_v every_o time_n they_o do_v eat_v the_o lamb_n but_o this_o be_v not_o so_o three_o the_o jewish_a church_n never_o understand_v these_o word_n literal_o but_o the_o christian_a church_n have_v ever_o understand_v these_o word_n of_o christ_n literal_o nor_o be_v it_o to_o be_v imagine_v that_o a_o change_n in_o such_o a_o thing_n be_v possible_a for_o how_o can_v any_o such_o opinion_n have_v creep_v in_o in_o any_o age_n if_o it_o have_v not_o be_v the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o former_a age_n m._n b._n say_v nothing_o he_o have_v allege_v be_v of_o any_o force_n for_o the_o first_o christ_n promise_n import_v no_o more_o than_o what_o he_o perform_v in_o the_o sacramental_a institution_n if_o then_o it_o be_v prove_v that_o by_o say_v this_o be_v my_o body_n be_v only_o mean_v a_o commemoration_n his_o promise_n must_v only_o relate_v to_o his_o death_n commemorate_a in_o the_o sacrament_n to_o the_o second_o the_o literal_a meaning_n of_o christ_n word_n be_v as_o impossible_a as_o the_o literal_a meaning_n of_o moses_n word_n for_o beside_o all_o the_o other_o impossibility_n that_o accompany_v this_o corporal_a presence_n it_o be_v certain_a christ_n give_v we_o his_o body_n in_o the_o sacrament_n as_o it_o be_v give_v for_o we_o and_o his_o blood_n as_o it_o be_v shed_v for_o we_o which_o be_v do_v only_o on_o the_o cross_n above_o 1600_o year_n ago_o it_o be_v as_o impossible_a that_o shall_v be_v literal_o give_v at_o every_o consecration_n as_o it_o be_v that_o the_o angel_n shall_v be_v smite_v the_o egyptians_n every_o paschal_n festivity_n and_o here_o be_v a_o great_a mistake_n they_o go_v on_o secure_o in_o that_o the_o body_n of_o christ_n we_o receive_v in_o the_o sacrament_n be_v the_o body_n of_o christ_n as_o he_o be_v now_o glorify_v in_o heaven_n for_o by_o the_o word_n of_o the_o institution_n it_o be_v clear_a that_o we_o receive_v his_o body_n as_o it_o be_v give_v for_o we_o when_o his_o blood_n be_v shed_v on_o the_o cross_n which_o be_v impossible_a to_o be_v reproduced_a now_o we_o only_o can_v receive_v christ_n by_o faith_n for_o his_o three_o difference_n that_o the_o christian_a church_n ever_o understand_v christ_n word_n so_o we_o will_v willing_o submit_v to_o the_o decision_n of_o the_o church_n in_o the_o first_o 6_o age_n can_v any_o thing_n be_v more_o express_a than_o theodoret_n who_o argue_v against_o the_o eutychian_o that_o the_o humanity_n and_o divinity_n of_o christ_n be_v not_o confound_v nor_o do_v depart_v from_o their_o own_o substance_n illustrate_v it_o from_o the_o eucharist_n in_o which_o the_o element_n of_o bread_n and_o wine_n do_v not_o depart_v from_o their_o own_o substance_n m._n w._n say_v we_o must_v examine_v the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o father_n not_o from_o some_o occasional_a mention_n they_o make_v of_o the_o sacrament_n but_o when_o they_o treat_v of_o it_o on_o design_n and_o with_o deliberation_n but_o to_o theodoret_n he_o will_v oppose_v s._n cyrill_n of_o jerusalem_n who_o in_o his_o four_o mist._n catechism_n say_v express_o though_o thou_o see_v it_o to_o be_v bread_n yet_o believe_v it_o be_v the_o flesh_n and_o the_o blood_n of_o the_o lord_n jesus_n doubt_v it_o not_o since_o he_o have_v say_v this_o be_v my_o body_n and_o for_o a_o proof_n instance_n christ_n change_v the_o water_n into_o wine_n d._n s._n say_v he_o have_v propose_v a_o most_o excellent_a rule_n for_o examine_v the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o father_n in_o this_o matter_n not_o to_o canvas_v what_o they_o say_v in_o eloquent_a and_o pious_a treaty_n or_o homily_n to_o work_v on_o people_n devotion_n in_o which_o case_n it_o be_v natural_a for_o all_o person_n to_o use_v high_a expression_n but_o we_o be_v to_o seek_v the_o real_a sense_n of_o this_o mystery_n when_o they_o be_v dogmatical_o treat_v of_o it_o and_o the_o other_o mystery_n of_o religion_n where_o reason_n and_o not_o eloquence_n take_v place_n if_o then_o it_o shall_v appear_v that_o at_o the_o same_o time_n both_o a_o bishop_n of_o rome_n and_o constantinople_n and_o one_o of_o the_o great_a bishop_n in_o africa_n do_v in_o assert_v the_o mystery_n of_o religion_n go_v downright_a against_o transubstantiation_n and_o assert_v that_o the_o substance_n of_o the_o bread_n and_o wine_n do_v remain_v he_o hope_v all_o will_v be_v satisfy_v the_o father_n do_v not_o believe_v as_o they_o do_v m._n w._n desire_v we_o will_v then_o answer_v the_o word_n of_o cyrill_n m._n b._n say_v it_o be_v a_o very_a unreasonable_a thing_n to_o enter_v into_o a_o verbal_a dispute_n about_o the_o passage_n of_o the_o father_n especial_o the_o book_n not_o be_v before_o we_o therefore_o he_o promise_v a_o answer_n in_o write_v to_o the_o testimony_n of_o s._n cyrill_n but_o now_o the_o matter_n be_v drive_v to_o a_o point_n and_o we_o willing_o underook_v to_o prove_v that_o for_o eight_o or_o nine_o century_n after_o christ_n the_o father_n do_v not_o believe_v transubstantiation_n but_o teach_v plain_o the_o contrary_a the_o father_n general_o call_v the_o element_n bread_n and_o wine_n after_o the_o consecration_n they_o call_v they_o mystery_n type_n figure_n symbol_n commemoration_n and_o sign_n of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n they_o general_o deliver_v that_o the_o wicked_a do_v not_o receive_v christ_n in_o the_o sacrament_n which_o show_v they_o do_v not_o believe_v transubstantiation_n all_o this_o we_o undertake_v to_o prove_v by_o undeniable_a evidence_n within_o a_o very_a few_o day_n or_o week_n m._n w._n say_v he_o shall_v be_v glad_a to_o see_v it_o d._n s._n say_v now_o we_o leave_v upon_o that_o point_n which_o by_o the_o grace_n of_o god_n we_o shall_v perform_v very_o soon_o but_o we_o have_v offer_v to_o satisfy_v they_o in_o the_o other_o ground_n of_o the_o separation_n from_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n if_o they_o desire_v to_o be_v further_o inform_v we_o shall_v wait_v on_o they_o when_o they_o please_v so_o we_o all_o rise_v up_o and_o take_v leave_v after_o we_o have_v be_v there_o about_o three_o hour_n the_o discourse_n be_v carry_v on_o on_o both_o side_n with_o great_a civility_n and_o calmness_n without_o heat_n or_o clamour_n this_o be_v as_o far_o as_o my_o memory_n after_o the_o most_o fix_a attention_n when_o present_a and_o careful_a recollection_n since_o do_v suggest_v to_o i_o without_o any_o bias_n or_o partiality_n not_o have_v fail_v in_o any_o one_o material_a thing_n as_o far_o as_o my_o
accident_n of_o bread_n and_o wine_n for_o proof_n of_o this_o we_o sha●●_n only_o bring_v the_o testimony_n of_o four_o ●a●h●rs_n that_o live_v almost_o within_o one_o age_n and_o be_v the_o great_a man_n of_o the_o age_n their_o authority_n be_v as_o general_o receive_v as_o their_o testimony_n be_v formal_a and_o decisive_a and_o these_o be_v pope_n gelasius_n st._n chrysostome_n ephrem_fw-la patriarch_n of_o antioch_n and_o theodoret_n who_o we_o shall_v find_v deliver_v to_o we_o the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o church_n in_o their_o age_n with_o great_a consideration_n upon_o a_o very_a weighty_a occasion_n so_o that_o it_o shall_v appear_v that_o this_o be_v for_o that_o age_n the_o doctrine_n general_o receive_v both_o in_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o constantinople_n antioch_n and_o asi●_n the_o less_o we_o shall_v begin_v with_o gelasius_n who_o though_o he_o live_v late_a than_o some_o of_o the_o other_o yet_o because_o of_o the_o eminence_n of_o his_o see_n and_o the_o authority_n those_o we_o deal_v with_o must_v needs_o acknowledge_v be_v in_o he_o aught_o to_o be_v set_v first_o christ_n he_o say_v the_o sacrament_n of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n be_v a_o divine_a thing_n for_o which_o reason_n we_o become_v by_o they_o partaker_n of_o the_o divine_a nature_n and_o yet_o the_o substance_n or_o nature_n of_o bread_n and_o wine_n do_v not_o cease_v to_o be_v and_o the_o image_n and_o likeness_n of_o the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ_n be_v indeed_o celebrate_v in_o the_o action_n of_o the_o mystery_n therefore_o it_o appear_v evident_o ●nough_o that_o we_o ought_v to_o think_v th●t_v of_o christ_n our_o lord_n which_o we_o profess_v and_o celebrate_v and_o receive_v in_o his_o image_n that_o as_o they_o to_o wit_n the_o element_n pass_v into_o that_o divine_a substance_n the_o holy_a ghost_n work_v it_o their_o nature_n remain_v still_o in_o its_o own_o property_n so_o that_o principal_a mystery_n who_o efficiency_n and_o virtue_n these_o to_o wit_n the_o sacrament_n represent_v to_o we_o remain_v one_o entire_a and_o true_a christ_n those_o thing_n of_o which_o he_o be_v compound_v to_o wit_n his_o two_o nature_n remain_v in_o their_o property_n these_o word_n seem_v so_o express_a and_o decisive_a that_o one_o will_v think_v the_o bare_a read_v they_o without_o any_o further_a reflection_n shall_v be_v of_o force_n enough_o but_o before_o we_o offer_v any_o consideration_n upon_o they_o we_o shall_v set_v down_o other_o passage_n of_o the_o other_o father_n and_o upon_o they_o altogether_o make_v such_o remark_n as_o we_o hope_v may_v satisfy_v any_o that_o will_v hear_v reason_n st._n chrysostom_n treat_v of_o the_o two_o nature_n of_o christ_n against_o the_o apollinarist_n monach_n who_o do_v so_o confound_v they_o as_o to_o consubstantiate_v they_o he_o make_v use_v of_o the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o sacrament_n to_o illustrate_v that_o mystery_n by_o in_o these_o word_n as_o before_o the_o bread_n be_v sanctify_v we_o call_v it_o bread_n but_o when_o the_o divine_a grace_n have_v sanctify_v it_o by_o the_o mean_a of_o the_o priest_n it_o be_v free_v from_o the_o name_n of_o bread_n and_o be_v think_v worthy_a of_o the_o name_n of_o the_o lord_n body_n though_o the_o nature_n of_o bread_n remain_v in_o it_o and_o yet_o it_o be_v not_o say_v there_o be_v two_o body_n but_o one_o body_n of_o the_o son_n so_o the_o divine_a nature_n be_v join_v to_o the_o body_n both_o these_o make_v one_o son_n and_o one_o person_n next_o this_o patriarch_n of_o constantinople_n let_v we_o hear_v ephrem_fw-mi the_o patriarch_n of_o antioch_n give_v his_o testimony_n 229._o as_o it_o be_v preserve_v by_o photius_n who_o say_v thus_o in_o like_a manner_n have_v before_o treat_v of_o the_o two_o nature_n unite_v in_o christ_n the_o body_n of_o christ_n which_o be_v receive_v by_o the_o faithful_a do_v not_o depart_v from_o its_o sensible_a substance_n and_o yet_o remain_v inseparate_v from_o the_o intellectual_a grace_n so_o baptism_n become_v whole_o spiritual_a and_o one_o it_o preserve_v its_o own_o sensible_a substance_n and_o do_v not_o lose_v that_o which_o it_o be_v before_o to_o these_o we_o shall_v add_v what_o theodoret_n on_o the_o same_o occasion_n say_v against_o those_o 1_o who_o from_o that_o place_n the_o word_n be_v make_v flesh_n believe_v that_o in_o the_o incarnation_n the_o divinity_n of_o the_o word_n be_v change_v into_o the_o humanity_n of_o the_o flesh._n he_o bring_v in_o his_o heretic_n argue_v about_o some_o mystical_a expression_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n that_o relate_v to_o christ_n at_o length_n he_o come_v to_o show_v how_o christ_n call_v himself_o bread_n and_o corn_n so_o also_o in_o the_o deliver_v the_o mystery_n christ_n call_v the_o bread_n his_o body_n and_o the_o mix_a cup_n his_o blood_n and_o our_o saviour_n change_v the_o name_n call_v his_o body_n by_o the_o name_n of_o the_o symbol_n and_o the_o symbol_n by_o the_o name_n of_o his_o body_n and_o when_o the_o heretic_n ask_v the_o reason_n why_o the_o name_n be_v so_o change_v the_o orthodox_n answer_v that_o it_o be_v manifest_a to_o such_o as_o be_v initiate_v in_o divine_a thing_n for_o he_o will_v have_v those_o who_o partake_v of_o the_o mystery_n not_o look_v to_o the_o nature_n of_o those_o thing_n that_o be_v see_v but_o by_o the_o change_n of_o the_o name_n to_o believe_v that_o change_n that_o be_v make_v through_o grace_n for_o he_o who_o call_v his_o natural_a body_n corn_n and_o bread_n do_v likewise_o honour_v the_o visible_a symbol_n with_o the_o name_n of_o his_o body_n and_o blood_n not_o change_v the_o nature_n but_o add_v grace_n to_o nature_n and_o so_o go_v on_o to_o ask_v his_o heretic_n whether_o he_o think_v the_o holy_a bread_n be_v the_o symbol_n and_o type_n of_o his_o divinity_n or_o of_o his_o body_n and_o blood_n and_o the_o other_o acknowledge_v they_o be_v the_o symbol_n of_o his_o body_n and_o blood_n he_o conclude_v that_o 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the_o heathen_n and_o jew_n who_o charge_v they_o with_o every_o thing_n they_o can_v po_n m_v =_o sible_o invent_v have_v not_o pass_v over_o this_o against_o which_o all_o the_o power_n of_o reason_n and_o the_o authority_n of_o sense_n do_v rise_v up_o they_o charge_v they_o for_o believe_v a_o god_n that_o be_v bear_v a_o god_n of_o flesh_n that_o be_v crucify_v and_o bury_v they_o laugh_v at_o their_o belief_n of_o a_o judgement_n to_o come_v of_o endless_a flame_n of_o a_o heavenly_a paradise_n and_o the_o resurrection_n of_o the_o flesh._n the_o first_o apologist_n for_o christianity_n justin_n tertullian_n origen_n arnobi●s_n and_o cyril_n of_o alexandria_n give_v we_o a_o full_a account_n of_o those_o blasphemy_n against_o our_o most_o holy_a faith_n and_o the_o last_o have_v give_v we_o what_o julian_n object_v in_o his_o own_o word_n who_o have_v apostatise_v from_o the_o faith_n in_o which_o he_o be_v initiate_v and_o be_v a_o reader_n in_o the_o church_n must_v have_v be_v well_o acquaint_v with_o and_o instruct_v in_o their_o doctrine_n and_o sacrament_n he_o then_o who_o laugh_v at_o every_o thing_n and_o in_o particular_a at_o the_o ablution_n and_o sanctification_n in_o baptism_n as_o conceive_v it_o a_o thing_n impossible_a that_o water_n shall_v cleanse_v and_o wash_v a_o soul_n yet_o neither_o he_o nor_o celsus_n nor_o any_o other_o ever_o charge_v on_o the_o christian_n any_o absurdity_n from_o their_o belief_n of_o transubstantiation_n this_o be_v it_o be_v true_a a_o negative_a argument_n yet_o when_o we_o consider_v the_o malice_n of_o those_o ingenious_a enemy_n of_o our_o faith_n and_o their_o care_n to_o expose_v all_o the_o doctrine_n and_o custom_n of_o christian_n and_o yet_o find_v they_o in_o no_o place_n charge_v the_o strange_a consequence_n of_o this_o doctrine_n on_o they_o we_o must_v from_o thence_o conclude_v there_o be_v no_o such_o doctrine_n then_o receive_v for_o if_o it_o have_v be_v they_o at_o least_o julian_n must_v have_v know_v it_o and_o if_o they_o know_v it_o can_v we_o think_v they_o shall_v not_o have_v make_v great_a noise_n about_o it_o we_o know_v some_o think_v their_o charge_v the_o christian_n with_o the_o eat_n of_o humane_a flesh_n and_o thyestean_a supper_n relate_v to_o the_o sacrament_n but_o that_o can_v be_v for_o when_o the_o father_n answer_n that_o charge_n they_o tell_v they_o to_o their_o tooth_n it_o be_v a_o plain_a lie_n and_o do_v not_o offer_v to_o explain_v it_o with_o any_o relation_n to_o the_o eucharist_n which_o they_o must_v have_v do_v if_o they_o have_v know_v it_o be_v found_v on_o their_o doctrine_n of_o receive_v christ_n body_n and_o blood_n in_o the_o sacrament_n but_o the_o truth_n be_v those_o horrid_a calumny_n be_v charge_v on_o the_o christian_n from_o the_o execrable_a and_o abominable_a practi●es_n of_o the_o gnostic_n who_o call_v themselves_o christian_n and_o the_o enemy_n of_o the_o faith_n either_o believe_v these_o be_v the_o practice_n of_o 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deduction_n of_o appear_a reason_n but_o most_o of_o all_o all_o man_n be_v apt_a to_o be_v startle_v when_o they_o be_v tell_v they_o must_v believe_v against_o the_o clear_a evidence_n of_o sense_n for_o man_n be_v never_o so_o meek_a and_o tame_a as_o easy_o to_o yield_v to_o such_o thing_n how_o come_v it_o then_o that_o for_o the_o first_o seven_o age_n there_o be_v no_o heresy_n nor_o heretic_n about_o this_o we_o be_v ready_a to_o prove_v that_o from_o the_o eight_o and_o nine_o century_n in_o which_o this_o doctrine_n begin_v to_o appear_v there_o have_v be_v in_o every_o age_n great_a opposition_n make_v to_o all_o the_o advance_n for_o set_v it_o up_o and_o yet_o these_o be_v but_o dark_a and_o unlearned_a age_n in_o which_o implicit_a obedience_n and_o a_o blind_a subjection_n to_o what_o be_v general_o propose_v be_v
much_o in_o credit_n in_o those_o age_n the_o civil_a power_n be_v ready_a to_o serve_v the_o rage_n of_o churchman_n against_o any_o who_o shall_v oppose_v it_o it_o be_v not_o safe_a for_o any_o to_o appear_v against_o it_o and_o yet_o it_o can_v be_v deny_v but_o from_o the_o day_n of_o the_o second_o council_n of_o nice_a which_o make_v a_o great_a step_n towards_o transubstantiation_n till_o the_o four_o council_n of_o l●teran_n there_o be_v great_a opposition_n make_v to_o it_o by_o the_o most_o eminent_a person_n in_o the_o latin_a church_n and_o how_o great_a a_o part_n of_o christendom_n have_v depart_v from_o the_o obedience_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n in_o every_o age_n since_o that_o time_n and_o upon_o that_o account_n be_v well_o enough_o know_v now_o be_v it_o to_o be_v imagine_v that_o there_o shall_v have_v be_v such_o a_o opposition_n to_o it_o these_o nine_o hundred_o year_n last_o pass_v and_o yet_o that_o it_o shall_v have_v be_v receive_v the_o former_a eight_o hundred_o year_n with_o no_o opposition_n and_o that_o it_o shall_v not_o have_v cost_v the_o church_n the_o trouble_n of_o one_o general_n council_n to_o decree_v it_o or_o of_o one_o treatise_n of_o a_o father_n to_o establish_v it_o and_o answer_v those_o objection_n that_o natural_o arise_v from_o our_o reason_n and_o sense_n against_o it_o but_o in_o the_o end_n there_o be_v many_o thing_n which_o have_v rise_v out_o of_o this_o doctrine_n as_o its_o natural_a consequence_n which_o have_v it_o be_v soon_o teach_v and_o receive_v must_v have_v be_v apprehend_v soon_o and_o those_o be_v so_o many_o clear_a presumption_n of_o the_o novelty_n of_o this_o doctrine_n the_o elevation_n adoration_n procession_n the_o doctrine_n of_o concomitance_n with_o a_o vast_a superfaetation_n of_o rite_n and_o rubric_n about_o this_o sacrament_n be_v late_o spring_v up_o the_o age_n of_o they_o be_v well_o know_v and_o they_o have_v rise_v in_o the_o latin_a church_n out_o of_o this_o doctrine_n which_o have_v it_o be_v soon_o receive_v we_o may_v reasonable_o enough_o think_v must_v have_v be_v likewise_o ancient_a now_o for_o all_o these_o thing_n as_o the_o primitive_a church_n know_v they_o not_o so_o on_o the_o other_o hand_n the_o great_a simplicity_n of_o their_o form_n as_o we_o find_v they_o in_o justin_n martyr_n and_o cyril_n of_o jerusalem_n in_o the_o apostolical_a constitution_n and_o the_o pretend_a denis_n the_o arcopagite_n be_v far_o from_o that_o pomp_n which_o the_o latter_a age_n that_o believe_v this_o doctrine_n bring_v in_o the_o sacrament_n be_v give_v in_o both_o kind_n be_v put_v in_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o faithful_a be_v give_v to_o the_o child_n for_o many_o age_n be_v send_v by_o boy_n or_o common_a person_n to_o such_o as_o be_v die_v the_o eat_v up_o what_o remain_v which_o in_o some_o place_n be_v burn_v in_o other_o place_n be_v consume_v by_o child_n or_o by_o the_o clergy_n their_o make_a cataplasm_n of_o it_o their_o mix_v the_o consecrate_a chalice_n with_o ink_n to_o sign_v the_o excommunication_n of_o heretic_n these_o with_o a_o great_a many_o more_o be_v such_o conviction_n to_o one_o that_o have_v careful_o compare_v the_o ancient_a form_n with_o the_o rubric_n and_o rite_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n since_o this_o doctrine_n be_v set_v up_o that_o it_o be_v as_o discernible_a as_o any_o thing_n can_v be_v that_o the_o present_a belief_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n be_v different_a from_o the_o primitive_a doctrine_n and_o thus_o far_o we_o have_v set_v down_o the_o reason_n that_o persuade_v we_o that_o transubstantiation_n be_v not_o the_o belief_n of_o the_o first_o seven_o or_o eight_o century_n of_o the_o church_n if_o there_o be_v any_o part_n of_o what_o we_o have_v assert_v question_v we_o have_v very_o formal_a and_o full_a proof_n ready_a to_o show_v for_o they_o though_o we_o think_v it_o not_o fit_a to_o enter_v into_o the_o particular_a proof_n of_o any_o thing_n but_o what_o we_o undertake_v to_o make_v out_o when_o we_o wait_v on_o your_o ladyship_n now_o there_o remain_v but_o one_o thing_n to_o be_v do_v which_o we_o also_o promise_v and_o that_o be_v to_o clear_v the_o word_n of_o st._n cyril_n of_o jerusalem_n we_o acknowledge_v they_o be_v true_o cite_v but_o for_o clear_v of_o they_o we_o shall_v neither_o allege_v any_o thing_n to_o the_o lessen_v the_o authority_n of_o that_o father_n though_o we_o find_v but_o a_o slender_a character_n give_v of_o he_o by_o epiphanius_n and_o other_o nor_o shall_v we_o say_v any_o thing_n to_o lessen_v the_o authority_n of_o these_o catechism_n though_o much_o may_v be_v say_v but_o it_o be_v plain_a st._n cyril_n design_n in_o these_o catechism_n be_v only_o to_o possess_v his_o neophites_n with_o a_o just_a and_o deep_a sense_n of_o these_o holy_a symbol_n but_o even_o in_o his_o 4_o the_o catechism_n he_o tell_v they_o not_o to_o consider_v it_o as_o mere_a bread_n and_o wine_n for_o it_o be_v the_o body_n and_o blood_n of_o christ._n by_o which_o it_o appear_v he_o think_v it_o be_v bread_n still_o though_o not_o mere_a bread_n and_o he_o give_v we_o elsewhere_o a_o very_a formal_a account_n in_o what_o sense_n he_o think_v it_o be_v christ_n body_n and_o blood_n which_o he_o also_o insinuate_v in_o this_o 4_o the_o cathechism_n for_o in_o his_o first_o mist._n catechism_n when_o he_o exhort_v his_o young_a christian_n to_o avoid_v all_o that_o belong_v to_o the_o heathenish_a idolatry_n he_o tell_v that_o on_o the_o solemnity_n of_o their_o idol_n they_o have_v flesh_n and_o bread_n which_o by_o the_o invocation_n of_o the_o devil_n be_v defile_v as_o the_o bread_n and_o wine_n of_o the_o eucharist_n before_o the_o holy_a invocation_n of_o the_o bless_a trinity_n be_v bare_a bread_n and_o wine_n but_o the_o invocation_n be_v make_v the_o bread_n become_v the_o body_n of_o christ._n in_o like_a manner_n say_v he_o those_o victual_n of_o the_o pomp_n of_o satan_n which_o of_o their_o 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not_o innovate_v any_o thing_n in_o the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o church_n but_o it_o be_v plain_a these_o they_o bring_v only_o as_o a_o confirmation_n of_o their_o argument_n and_o not_o as_o the_o chief_a strength_n of_o their_o cause_n for_o as_o they_o do_v not_o drive_v up_o the_o tradition_n to_o the_o apostle_n day_n set_v only_o down_o some_o late_a testimony_n so_o they_o make_v no_o inference_n from_o they_o but_o bare_o set_v they_o down_o by_o which_o it_o be_v evident_a all_o the_o use_n they_o make_v of_o these_o be_v only_o to_o show_v that_o the_o ●aith_n of_o the_o age_n that_o precede_v they_o be_v conform_v to_o the_o proof_n they_o bring_v from_o scripture_n but_o do_v not_o at_o all_o find_v the_o strength_n of_o their_o argument_n from_o scripture_n upon_o the_o sense_n of_o the_o father_n that_o go_v before_o they_o and_o if_o the_o council_n of_o nice_a have_v pass_v the_o decree_n of_o add_v the_o consubstantial_o to_o the_o creed_n upon_o evidence_n bring_v 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all_o the_o follow_a cruelty_n that_o be_v as_o terrible_a as_o can_v be_v invent_v by_o all_o the_o fury_n of_o the_o court_n of_o rome_n manage_v by_o the_o inquisition_n of_o the_o dominican_n who_o soul_n be_v then_o as_o black_a as_o their_o garment_n can_v bear_v down_o or_o extinguish_v that_o light_n of_o the_o truth_n in_o which_o what_o be_v want_v in_o learning_n wit_n or_o order_n be_v full_o make_v up_o in_o the_o simplicity_n of_o their_o manner_n and_o the_o constancy_n of_o their_o suffering_n and_o it_o be_v easy_a to_o show_v that_o the_o two_o great_a thing_n they_o be_v most_o persecute_v for_o be_v their_o refuse_v subjection_n to_o the_o see_v of_o rome_n and_o their_o not_o believe_v the_o doctrine_n of_o the_o corporal_a presence_n nor_o be_v they_o confine_v to_o one_o corner_n of_o france_n only_o but_o spread_v almost_o all_o europe_n over_o 13._o in_o that_o age_n steven_n bishop_n in_o edue●_n be_v the_o first_o i_o ever_o find_v cite_v to_o have_v use_v 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the_o decree_n run_v chief_o against_o such_o yet_o there_o be_v two_o clause_n in_o it_o that_o go_v further_o one_o be_v in_o these_o word_n save_v always_o the_o right_n of_o the_o principal_a lord_n provide_v he_o make_v no_o obstacle_n about_o it_o nor_o cast_v in_o any_o impediment_n whence_o it_o plain_o follow_v that_o if_o the_o sovereign_n such_o as_o the_o king_n of_o france_n in_o the_o case_n of_o tholouse_n do_v make_v any_o obstacle_n he_o forfeit_v his_o right_n the_o other_o clause_n be_v in_o these_o word_n the_o same_o law_n be_v nevertheless_o observe_v about_o those_o who_o have_v no_o principal_a lord_n in_o which_o be_v clear_o include_v all_o those_o sovereign_n who_o depend_v and_o hold_v their_o crown_n immediate_o from_o god_n now_o it_o be_v apparent_a the_o design_n of_o these_o word_n so_o couch_v be_v once_o to_o bring_v all_o sovereign_n under_o that_o lash_n before_o they_o be_v aware_a of_o it_o for_o have_v they_o name_v emperor_n and_o king_n they_o 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in_o that_o church_n when_o this_o doctrine_n be_v set_v up_o but_o to_o complete_a that_o black_a character_n let_v we_o but_o look_v over_o to_o the_o council_n of_o constance_n which_o decree_v that_o bold_a violation_n of_o the_o command_n of_o christ_n drink_v you_o all_o of_o it_o by_o take_v the_o chalice_n from_o the_o laity_n and_o there_o we_o find_v perfidy_n which_o be_v the_o base_a and_o worst_a kind_n of_o lie_v also_o establish_v by_o law_n for_o it_o be_v decree_v by_o they_o 19_o that_o all_o safe_a conduct_n notwithstanding_o or_o by_o what_o bond_n soever_o any_o prince_n have_v engage_v himself_o the_o council_n be_v no_o way_n prejudice_v and_o that_o the_o judge_n competent_a may_v inquire_v into_o their_o error_n and_o proceed_v otherwise_o due_o against_o they_o and_o punish_v they_o according_a to_o justice_n if_o they_o stubborn_o refuse_v to_o retract_v their_o error_n although_o trust_v to_o their_o safe_a conduct_n they_o have_v come_v to_o the_o place_n 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their_o neighbour_n church_n but_o a_o debt_n to_o their_o own_o which_o the_o stubborness_n of_o other_o can_v excuse_v they_o from_o and_o so_o those_o bishop_n in_o the_o primitive_a church_n that_o be_v environ_v with_o arrian_n do_v reform_v their_o own_o church_n when_o they_o be_v place_v in_o any_o see_v that_o have_v be_v corrupt_v by_o arrianism_n three_o no_o time_n can_v give_v prescription_n against_o truth_n and_o therefore_o have_v any_o error_n be_v ever_o so_o ancient_o receive_v in_o any_o church_n yet_o the_o pastor_n of_o that_o church_n find_v it_o contrary_a to_o truth_n ought_v to_o reform_v it_o the_o more_o ancient_a or_o inveterate_a any_o error_n be_v it_o need_v the_o more_o to_o be_v look_v to_o so_o those_o nation_n that_o be_v long_o breed_v up_o in_o arrianism_n have_v
good_a reason_n to_o reform_v from_o that_o error_n so_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n will_v acknowledge_v that_o the_o greek_a church_n or_o our_o church_n ought_v to_o forsake_v their_o present_a doctrine_n though_o they_o have_v be_v long_o receive_v four_o no_o late_a definition_n of_o council_n or_o father_n ought_v to_o derogate_v from_o the_o ancient_a decree_n of_o council_n or_o opinion_n of_o the_o father_n otherwise_o the_o arrian_n have_v reason_n to_o have_v justify_v their_o submit_v to_o the_o council_n of_o sirmium_n arimini_fw-la and_o milan_n and_o reject_v that_o of_o nice_n therefore_o we_o ought_v in_o the_o first_o place_n to_o consider_v the_o decree_n and_o opinion_n of_o the_o most_o primitive_a antiquity_n five_o no_o succession_n of_o bishop_n how_o clear_a so_o ever_o in_o its_o descent_n from_o the_o apostle_n can_v secure_v a_o church_n from_o error_n which_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n must_v acknowledge_v since_o they_o can_v neither_o deny_v the_o succession_n of_o the_o greek_a church_n nor_o of_o the_o church_n of_o england_n six_o if_o any_o church_n continue_v so_o harden_v in_o their_o error_n that_o they_o break_v communion_n with_o another_o church_n for_o reform_v the_o guilt_n of_o this_o breach_n must_v lie_v at_o their_o door_n who_o be_v both_o in_o the_o error_n and_o first_o reject_v the_o other_o and_o refuse_v to_o reform_v or_o communicate_v with_o other_o church_n upon_o every_o one_o of_o these_o particular_n and_o they_o all_o set_v together_o complete_a the_o plea_n for_o the_o church_n of_o england_n i_o be_o willing_a to_o join_v issue_n and_o show_v they_o be_v not_o only_o true_a in_o themselves_o but_o must_v be_v also_o acknowledge_v by_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n so_o that_o if_o the_o ground_n of_o controversy_n on_o which_o our_o reformation_n do_v proceed_v be_v good_a and_o justifiable_a it_o be_v most_o unreasonable_a to_o say_v our_o church_n have_v not_o good_a right_n and_o authority_n to_o make_v it_o it_o can_v be_v make_v appear_v that_o for_o above_o two_o hundred_o year_n before_o the_o reformation_n there_o be_v general_a complaint_n among_o all_o sort_n of_o peson_n both_o though_o subtle_a schoolman_n and_o devout_a contemplative_n both_o ecclesiastic_n and_o laic_n do_v complain_v of_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o church_n and_o call_v aloud_o for_o a_o reformation_n both_o of_o faith_n and_o manner_n even_o the_o council_n of_o pisa_n a_o little_a before_o luther_n day_n do_v decree_n there_o shall_v be_v a_o reformation_n both_o of_o faith_n and_o manner_n and_o that_o both_o of_o the_o head_n and_o member_n but_o all_o these_o complaint_n turn_v to_o nothing_o abuse_n grow_v daily_o the_o interest_n of_o the_o nephew_n and_o other_o corrupt_a intrigue_n of_o the_o court_n of_o rome_n always_o obstruct_v good_a motion_n and_o cherish_v ill_a custom_n for_o they_o bring_v the_o more_o grist_n to_o their_o mill._n when_o a_o reformation_n 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