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reason_n doctrine_n part_n use_v 19,451 5 9.9356 5 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A28837 A conference with Mr. Claude, minister of Charenton, concerning the authority of the church by James Benigne Bossuet, Bishop of Meaux ... ; faithfully done into English out of the French original.; Conference avec M. Claude, ministre de Charenton, sur la matière de l'eglise. English Bossuet, Jacques Bénigne, 1627-1704.; Claude, Jean, 1619-1687. 1687 (1687) Wing B3780; ESTC R23256 107,935 138

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of_o the_o divinity_n through_o atheism_n since_o examination_n and_o doubt_n be_v a_o spice_n of_o it_o but_o it_o be_v not_o so_o god_n have_v place_v his_o mark_n in_o the_o world_n which_o be_v the_o work_n of_o his_o hand_n and_o by_o this_o divine_a mark_n he_o imprint_n in_o soul_n before_o all_o doubt_n the_o sentiment_n of_o his_o divinity_n in_o like_a manner_n he_o have_v place_v his_o mark_n in_o his_o church_n the_o most_o perfect_a work_n of_o his_o wisdom_n by_o this_o mark_n the_o holy_a ghost_n make_v the_o true_a church_n know_v to_o the_o child_n of_o god_n and_o this_o so_o particular_a character_n which_o distinguish_v she_o from_o all_o other_o assembly_n give_v she_o so_o great_a a_o authority_n that_o without_o hesitate_v we_o admit_v before_o all_o opinion_n not_o only_o the_o holy_a scripture_n but_o also_o all_o her_o sound_a doctrine_n thus_o be_v the_o child_n of_o the_o true_a church_n instruct_v those_o that_o be_v educate_v in_o a_o strange_a church_n as_o soon_o as_o they_o perceive_v she_o waver_v in_o any_o part_n whatever_o of_o her_o instruction_n aught_o to_o stretch_v forth_o their_o arm_n to_o the_o church_n which_o have_v reason_n never_o to_o waver_v because_o she_o have_v never_o vary_v nor_o waver_v and_o they_o find_v they_o ought_v to_o return_v into_o it_o because_o none_o shall_v ever_o have_v go_v out_o of_o it_o the_o seven_o reflection_n on_o mr._n claude_n say_v in_o his_o relation_n that_o i_o appear_v embarrass_v in_o this_o part_n of_o the_o dispute_n it_o may_v now_o be_v judge_v whether_o i_o ought_v to_o be_v perplex_v about_o the_o promise_n i_o make_v mademoiselle_n de_fw-fr duras_n to_o make_v mr._n claude_n acknowledge_v a_o moment_n in_o which_o by_o the_o principle_n of_o his_o religion_n a_o christian_a have_v but_o a_o human_a faith_n concern_v the_o truth_n of_o the_o scripture_n how_o can_v i_o be_v embarrass_v about_o a_o thing_n which_o mr._n claude_n acknowledge_v in_o the_o conference_n and_o 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the_o cardinal_n du_fw-fr perron_n have_v give_v it_o so_o decisive_a a_o answer_n as_o to_o what_o happen_v in_o juda_n itself_o i_o will_v yet_o make_v the_o objection_n strong_a than_o they_o have_v propose_v it_o by_o consider_v the_o state_n of_o gods_n people_n under_o ahaz_n xxviij_o 2_o kin._n xuj_o 2_o chron._n xxviij_o who_o shut_v up_o the_o temple_n cause_v vrijah_n the_o priest_n of_o the_o lord_n to_o sacrifice_v to_o idol_n and_o fill_v all_o jerusalem_n with_o abomination_n and_o afterward_o under_o manasseh_n xxxiij_o 2_o kin._n xxi_o 2_o chron._n xxxiij_o who_o impiety_n transcend_v those_o of_o ahaz_n but_o to_o show_v that_o all_o this_o make_v nothing_o to_o the_o question_n i_o desire_v they_o only_o to_o observe_v that_o isaiah_n who_o live_v during_o all_o the_o reign_n of_o ahaz_n for_o all_o these_o abomination_n of_o the_o king_n of_o the_o priest_n vrijah_n and_o almost_o all_o the_o people_n never_o separate_v from_o the_o communion_n of_o juda_n no_o 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claude_n we_o agree_v not_o this_o novelty_n what_o be_v in_o the_o scripture_n be_v not_o new_a patience_n sir_n i_o beseech_v you_o say_v i_o to_o he_o none_o of_o the_o ancient_a heretic_n agree_v the_o novelty_n of_o their_o doctrine_n they_o all_o allege_v the_o holy_a scripture_n for_o themselves_o but_o there_o be_v one_o novelty_n which_o they_o can_v not_o deny_v to_o wit_n that_o the_o body_n of_o their_o church_n be_v not_o yesterday_o and_o you_o grant_v it_o and_o well_o in_o fine_a say_fw-la mr._n claude_n if_o the_o arian_n if_o the_o nestorian_n if_o the_o pelagian_o have_v be_v right_a at_o the_o bottom_n they_o will_v not_o have_v be_v to_o blame_v in_o their_o proceed_v to_o blame_v or_o not_o say_v i_o to_o he_o be_v not_o sir_n the_o bottom_z of_o the_o question_n but_o it_o still_o continue_v evident_a that_o you_o have_v the_o same_o proceed_v with_o they_o the_o same_o conduct_n the_o same_o defence_n in_o a_o word_n that_o in_o form_v your_o church_n you_o 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for_o ever_o it_o be_v true_a answer_v mr._n claude_n but_o the_o synagogue_n agree_v not_o that_o jesus_n be_v the_o christ_n but_o reply_v i_o the_o synagogue_n condemn_v not_o st._n john_n baptist_n but_o the_o synagogue_n hear_v without_o contradict_v they_o the_o wise_a man_n simeon_n and_o anna._n jesus_n christ_n gather_v in_o the_o synagogue_n the_o then_o true_a church_n the_o child_n of_o god_n which_o it_o contain_v the_o synagogue_n at_o last_o condemn_v he_o but_o jesus_n christ_n have_v already_o found_v his_o church_n he_o give_v it_o its_o last_o form_n present_o after_o his_o death_n and_o the_o new_a people_n follow_v the_o old_a without_o any_o interruption_n these_o be_v undeniable_a truth_n and_o for_o what_o concern_v paganism_n it_o be_v true_a the_o pagan_n upbraid_v the_o christian_n with_o their_o newness_n but_o what_o do_v the_o christian_n answer_n do_v they_o not_o show_v that_o the_o jew_n always_o believe_v the_o same_o god_n which_o the_o christian_n 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their_o deputation_n or_o as_o they_o term_v it_o their_o envoy_n have_v not_o this_o clause_n of_o submission_n the_o church_n be_v difficult_o bring_v to_o make_v a_o oath_n so_o little_a agreeable_a to_o the_o doctrine_n they_o be_v inspire_v with_o and_o to_o swear_v against_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o new_a reformation_n such_o a_o submission_n to_o a_o assembly_n which_o after_o all_o whatever_o name_n may_v be_v give_v it_o be_v but_o a_o assembly_n of_o man_n still_o according_a to_o their_o principle_n liable_a to_o mistake_v but_o they_o must_v pass_v through_o it_o they_o say_v they_o do_v nothing_o if_o they_o do_v not_o at_o last_o oblige_v man_n to_o a_o absolute_a submission_n and_o that_o to_o leave_v they_o liberty_n to_o examine_v after_o the_o last_o and_o final_a resolution_n be_v to_o nourish_v pride_n dissension_n and_o schism_n thus_o against_o the_o principle_n of_o the_o new_a reformation_n be_v they_o fain_o to_o give_v other_o idea_n and_o it_o be_v 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not_o this_o difficulty_n to_o show_v seq_n vid._n sup._n p._n 2_o 3._o &_o seq_n that_o the_o word_n church_n signify_v in_o the_o creed_n a_o visible_a church_n i_o lay_v for_o a_o foundation_n that_o in_o a_o confession_n of_o faith_n such_o as_o this_o creed_n be_v word_n be_v use_v in_o their_o most_o natural_a and_o most_o simple_a signification_n and_o i_o add_v that_o the_o word_n church_n signify_v so_o natural_o the_o visible_a church_n that_o the_o pretend_a reform_a author_n of_o the_o chimaera_n of_o a_o invisible_a church_n in_o all_o their_o confession_n of_o faith_n never_o use_v the_o word_n church_n in_o this_o sense_n but_o only_o to_o express_v the_o visible_a church_n clothe_v with_o the_o sacrament_n with_o the_o word_n and_o with_o all_o the_o public_a ministry_n see_v the_o passage_n of_o the_o confession_n of_o faith_n i_o have_v relate_v with_o the_o consequence_n i_o have_v draw_v from_o they_o i_o be_v not_o the_o first_o who_o make_v this_o remark_n it_o 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may_v not_o be_v pure_a because_o with_o the_o essential_a truth_n it_o may_v have_v error_n mix_v i_o say_v even_o gross_a and_o considerable_a error_n against_o the_o faith_n and_o this_o be_v one_o of_o the_o mystery_n of_o the_o new_a reformation_n which_o mr._n claude_n will_v explain_v to_o we_o by_o and_o by_o but_o it_o be_v not_o here_o in_o question_n what_o there_o be_v important_a be_v that_o these_o people_n who_o say_v they_o be_v send_v of_o god_n to_o raise_v again_o the_o pure_a doctrine_n of_o the_o gospel_n be_v to_o explicate_v as_o themselves_o declare_v in_o their_o confession_n of_o faith_n the_o church_n of_o which_o mention_n be_v make_v in_o the_o creed_n speak_v nevertheless_o only_o of_o the_o militant_a and_o visible_a church_n i_o can_v easy_o tell_v you_o the_o reason_n it_o be_v that_o this_o church_n of_o which_o mention_n be_v make_v in_o the_o creed_n be_v indeed_o the_o visible_a church_n it_o be_v that_o the_o word_n church_n natural_o import_v this_o visibility_n and_o the_o word_n catholic_n be_v so_o far_o from_o derogate_a from_o it_o that_o it_o suppose_v it_o it_o be_v that_o in_o a_o confession_n of_o faith_n one_o often_o happen_v to_o speak_v rather_o according_a to_o the_o natural_a idea_n the_o word_n bear_v with_o they_o than_o according_a to_o the_o refinement_n and_o interpretation_n one_o have_v invent_v to_o free_v himself_o out_o of_o some_o difficulty_n thus_o the_o invisible_a church_n present_v not_o itself_o at_o all_o to_o our_o reform_a when_o they_o frame_v their_o confession_n of_o faith_n the_o sense_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n appear_v only_o in_o it_o there_o be_v nothing_o see_v in_o this_o but_o natural_a till_o the_o year_n 1603._o in_o 1603_o they_o awake_v they_o begin_v to_o find_v it_o strange_a that_o a_o church_n which_o found_v her_o succession_n in_o the_o idea_n of_o a_o invisible_a church_n and_o of_o a_o church_n of_o the_o predestinate_a shall_v not_o have_v say_v one_o word_n of_o it_o in_o her_o confession_n of_o faith_n but_o have_v leave_v it_o for_o evident_a that_o the_o natural_a signification_n of_o the_o word_n church_n always_o import_v a_o visible_a society_n so_o that_o to_o speak_v true_o the_o succession_n of_o the_o church_n will_v no_o long_o be_v show_v without_o show_v the_o succession_n of_o her_o visibility_n a_o thing_n utter_o impossible_a for_o the_o new_a reformation_n it_o be_v this_o incline_v the_o whole_a synod_n to_o desire_v the_o go_v again_o over_o this_o article_n and_o to_o exhort_v the_o province_n to_o come_v ready_o prepare_v upon_o the_o matter_n of_o the_o church_n which_o have_v never_o be_v well_o understand_v among_o the_o new_a reform_a which_o be_v not_o yet_o understand_v and_o which_o will_v make_v all_o those_o catholic_n that_o can_v thorough_o understand_v they_o but_o the_o go_n over_o this_o article_n again_o be_v a_o very_a nice_a affair_n it_o be_v to_o awaken_v all_o understanding_n it_o be_v too_o visible_o to_o mark_v the_o defect_n and_o give_v the_o printer_n more_o occasion_n than_o ever_o to_o entitle_v it_o the_o confession_n review_v and_o correct_v thus_o in_o the_o synod_n of_o rochel_n hold_v in_o 1607_o it_o be_v resolve_v not_o to_o add_v or_o diminish_v any_o thing_n in_o the_o xxv_o and_o xxix_o article_n nor_o to_o meddle_v afresh_o with_o the_o matter_n of_o the_o church_n by_o the_o decision_n of_o this_o synod_n the_o visible_a church_n alone_o appear_v in_o the_o pretend_a reformeds_n confession_n of_o faith_n the_o invisible_a church_n have_v no_o part_n in_o it_o and_o one_o draw_v from_o it_o consequence_n as_o one_o can_v that_o 4._o vid._n sup._n p._n 4._o which_o i_o draw_v pinch_v they_o for_o if_o the_o church_n appear_v only_o as_o visible_a in_o the_o pretend_a reformeds_n confession_n of_o faith_n and_o if_o beside_o they_o assert_v this_o confession_n of_o faith_n as_o conformable_a in_o all_o point_n to_o the_o scripture_n they_o must_v tell_v we_o that_o this_o manner_n of_o explicate_v the_o church_n come_v from_o the_o scripture_n and_o that_o from_o the_o scripture_n it_o have_v pass_v natural_o into_o the_o ordinary_a language_n of_o christian_n into_o the_o confession_n of_o faith_n and_o consequent_o into_o the_o creed_n which_o be_v not_o only_o the_o best_a authorise_a of_o all_o confession_n of_o faith_n but_o also_o the_o most_o simple_a mr._n claude_n answer_v we_o 1._o man._n anf._n q._n 1._o that_o the_o custom_n change_v and_o that_o by_o process_n of_o time_n word_n often_o depart_v from_o their_o first_o and_o natural_a signification_n and_o that_o beside_o tho'_o it_o shall_v be_v true_a as_o i_o have_v say_v that_o the_o word_n church_n take_v simple_o shall_v signify_v the_o visible_a church_n the_o word_n universal_a will_v change_v this_o signification_n but_o he_o shall_v not_o escape_v we_o by_o this_o
and_o to_o believe_v that_o they_o cease_v to_o be_v pastor_n when_o they_o cease_v to_o be_v good_a people_n tho'_o without_o scandal_n this_o be_v the_o pernicious_a doctrine_n of_o wicleff_n which_o will_v put_v all_o the_o church_n in_o confusion_n except_v this_o ill_a sense_n which_o can_v be_v mr._n claude_n i_o grant_v he_o all_o he_o say_v for_o without_o doubt_n it_o be_v not_o jesus_n christs_n first_o intent_n that_o there_o shall_v be_v minister_n that_o be_v deceiver_n this_o happen_v only_o through_o the_o malice_n of_o the_o enemy_n the_o distinction_n of_o the_o ministry_n be_v for_o true_a believer_n jesus_n christ_n do_v not_o establish_v it_o to_o call_v into_o the_o church_n deceiver_n and_o hypocrite_n who_o doubt_v it_o but_o nevertheless_o these_o deceiver_n and_o these_o hypocrite_n may_v be_v sufficient_o of_o the_o church_n to_o be_v lawful_a pastor_n in_o it_o and_o the_o true_a believer_n be_v to_o live_v to_o the_o end_n of_o the_o world_n under_o the_o authority_n of_o this_o mix_a ministry_n he_o must_v then_o without_o examine_v whether_o the_o minister_n be_v good_a or_o evil_n show_v we_o a_o succession_n of_o they_o always_o manifest_a under_o which_o god_n have_v conserve_v his_o people_n the_o more_o i_o continue_v my_o read_n the_o more_o i_o find_v this_o truth_n evident_o declare_v for_o enter_v into_o the_o four_o question_n i_o take_v good_a notice_n that_o mr._n claude_n pretend_v there_o to_o show_v that_o the_o passage_n where_o jesus_n christ_n promise_v the_o church_n to_o keep_v she_o always_o on_o the_o earth_n regard_v only_o the_o society_n of_o true_a believer_n but_o he_o forbear_v not_o always_o equal_o to_o own_o that_o this_o church_n never_o cease_v to_o be_v visible_a and_o that_o jesus_n christ_n have_v so_o promise_v i_o pretend_v to_o show_v the_o visible_a church_n in_o these_o word_n 18._o vid._n sup._n 7_o 8._o &_o seq_fw-la mat._n xuj_o v._o 18._o thou_o be_v peter_n and_o upon_o this_o rock_n i_o will_v build_v my_o church_n and_o the_o gate_n of_o hell_n shall_v not_o prevail_v against_o it_o the_o reason_n i_o make_v use_v of_o to_o prove_v it_o may_v be_v see_v mr._n claude_n receive_v this_o doctrine_n with_o its_o proof_n and_o he_o acknowledge_v that_o the_o church_n which_o be_v speak_v of_o in_o this_o passage_n be_v in_o effect_n a_o confess_v church_n a_o church_n which_o publish_v the_o faith_n a_o church_n to_o which_o jesus_n christ_n have_v give_v a_o exterior_a ministry_n a_o church_n which_o use_v the_o ministry_n of_o the_o key_n and_o which_o bind_v and_o lose_v and_o which_o consequent_o have_v a_o outside_o and_o a_o visibility_n it_o be_v such_o a_o church_n that_o jesus_n christ_n have_v promise_v to_o keep_v always_o on_o the_o earth_n mr._n claude_n can_v suffer_v one_o to_o tell_v he_o that_o she_o cease_v to_o be_v and_o thus_o she_o be_v always_o with_o all_o that_o ministry_n which_o be_v essential_a to_o she_o which_o make_v mr._n claude_n conclude_v with_o i_o etc._n vid._n sup._n p._n 9_o 10._o etc._n etc._n that_o the_o ecclesiastical_a ministry_n shall_v last_v without_o discontinuance_n till_o the_o general_n resurrection_n and_o to_o grant_v without_o difficulty_n that_o this_o promise_n of_o jesus_n christ_n i_o will_v be_v always_o with_o you_o respect_v the_o perpetuity_n of_o the_o ecclesiastical_a ministry_n 20._o mat._n xxviii_o v._o 9_o 20._o jesus_n christ_n promise_n say_v he_o to_o be_v with_o the_o church_n to_o baptize_v with_o she_o and_o to_o teach_v with_o her_o without_o interruption_n even_o to_o the_o end_n of_o the_o world_n there_o shall_v then_o always_o be_v teacher_n with_o who_o jesus_n christ_n shall_v teach_v and_o true_a preach_v shall_v never_o cease_v in_o his_o church_n but_o shall_v this_o ministry_n last_o for_o ever_o so_o pure_a that_o none_o but_o good_a people_n shall_v be_v admit_v to_o it_o we_o have_v see_v that_o mr._n claude_n pretend_v it_o not_o in_o effect_n there_o be_v no_o promise_n of_o this_o perpetual_a purity_n the_o promise_n be_v that_o whatsoever_o the_o manner_n of_o these_o minister_n may_v be_v jesus_n christ_n will_v always_o act_v always_o baptize_v and_o always_o teach_v with_o they_o and_o the_o effect_n of_o this_o ministry_n tho'_o mix_v shall_v be_v such_o that_o under_o its_o authority_n the_o church_n shall_v be_v always_o visible_a not_o indeed_o say_v mr._n claude_n with_o a_o distinct_a view_n which_o go_v so_o far_o as_o to_o say_v such_o and_o such_o be_v 〈…〉_o which_o it_o notwithstanding_o certain_a and_o which_o go_v so_o 〈…〉_o say_v the_o true_a 〈…〉_o to_o 〈◊〉_d in_o that_o exterior_a profession_n let_v we_o not_o call_v if_o they_o will_v by_o the_o name_n of_o the_o church_n all_o that_o exterior_a profession_n let_v we_o abstain_v from_o this_o name_n since_o mr._n claude_n be_v against_o it_o and_o like_o true_a reasonable_a and_o peaceable_a christian_n let_v we_o endeavour_v to_o agree_v on_o the_o thing_n this_o exterior_a profession_n which_o may_v be_v always_o 〈◊〉_d and_o as_o i_o may_v say_v point_v to_o with_o the_o finger_n be_v mix_v of_o good_a and_o evil_a the_o ministry_n which_o govern_v it_o be_v also_o mix_v mr._n claude_n agree_v all_o this_o it_o may_v nevertheless_o be_v say_v under_o this_o ministry_n and_o in_o this_o exterior_a profession_n be_v the_o 〈◊〉_d believer_n this_o be_v what_o we_o just_a now_o hear_v from_o the_o same_o minister_n mouth_n if_o then_o according_a to_o his_o doctrine_n the_o society_n of_o true_a believer_n subsist_v for_o ever_o and_o continue_v always_o visible_a on_o the_o earth_n if_o it_o may_v always_o be_v show_v in_o a_o exterior_a profession_n and_o be_v visible_a only_o there_o as_o mr._n claude_n say_v it_o not_o only_o follow_v that_o true_a believer_n shall_v always_o be_v upon_o the_o earth_n but_o that_o this_o profession_n mix_v of_o good_a and_o bad_a where_o there_o true_a believer_n be_v find_v where_o they_o be_v point_v to_o where_o they_o be_v mark_v shall_v be_v there_o also_o this_o be_v what_o we_o agree_v on_o with_o mr._n claude_n but_o since_o all_o these_o passage_n be_v disperse_v up_o and_o down_o his_o answer_n see_v here_o one_o in_o which_o he_o have_v take_v care_n to_o collect_v all_o together_o it_o be_v after_o his_o four_o question_n and_o in_o the_o seven_o consequence_n that_o this_o minister_n endeavour_v to_o explicate_v the_o xxxi_o article_n of_o the_o confession_n of_o faith_n where_o it_o be_v say_v that_o in_o our_o day_n and_o before_o the_o reformation_n the_o state_n of_o the_o church_n be_v interrupt_v distinguish_v the_o state_n of_o the_o church_n interrupt_v for_o a_o time_n from_o the_o church_n which_o be_v never_o interrupt_v according_a to_o his_o principle_n and_o th●s_v he_o define_v the_o church_n the_o church_n say_v he_o be_v the_o true_a faithful_a who_o make_v profession_n of_o the_o christian_a truth_n of_o piety_n and_o of_o true_a holiness_n under_o a_o ministry_n which_o f●●nishes_v she_o with_o the_o alment_n necessary_a for_o the_o spiritual_a life_n without_o deprive_v she_o of_o any_o of_o they_o we_o shall_v discover_v in_o its_o time_n the_o secret_a of_o these_o spiritual_a aliment_n in_o the_o mean_a while_n 〈…〉_o agree_v with_o mr._n claude_n that_o the_o church_n always_o subsist_v and_o always_o subsist_v visible_a since_o by_o his_o definition_n she_o be_v nothing_o 〈◊〉_d but_o the_o true_a believer_n who_o make_v profession_n of_o the_o christian_a truth_n under_o the_o ecclesiastical_a ministry_n behold_v a_o immovable_a foundation_n let_v we_o see_v what_o we_o can_v build_v on_o it_o but_o before_o we_o build_v we_o be_v go_v to_o see_v the_o objection_n fall_v the_o twelve_o reflection_n two_o of_o mr._n claude_n principal_a objection_n resolve_v by_o his_o own_o doctrine_n mr._n claude_n object_n to_o i_o first_o aus_n man._n aus_n that_o i_o desire_v in_o vain_a to_o establish_v my_o society_n compose_v of_o good_a and_o bad_a and_o its_o eternal_a duration_n on_o these_o inviolable_a promise_n of_o jesus_n christ_n thou_o be_v peter_n and_o i_o be_o always_o with_o you_o it_o be_v not_o say_v he_o of_o the_o wicked_a that_o it_o can_v be_v say_v that_o hall_n shall_v not_o prevail_v against_o they_o it_o be_v not_o with_o wicked_a man_n and_o hypocrite_n that_o jesus_n christ_n have_v promise_v always_o to_o be_v and_o these_o promise_n respect_v none_o but_o true_a believer_n let_v we_o add_v according_a to_o mr._n claude_n principle_n that_o if_o these_o promise_n respect_v only_o true_a believer_n they_o respect_v they_o at_o least_o in_o this_o ministry_n and_o in_o this_o exterior_a profession_n and_o the_o objection_n will_v be_v at_o the_o same_o time_n resolve_v for_o in_o fine_a if_o the_o true_a believer_n ought_v to_o be_v always_o show_v and_o always_o visible_a according_a to_o mr._n claude_n in_o this_o