the known doctrin of the present Church which she practises as deriv'd from Christ and wherof she knows no other beginning He that is not conscious to himself of this is no Heretick before God and he that carries that guilt in his breast is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whatever seeming reasons he has for himself and whoever teaches any point contrary to this tradition not knowing such contrariety teaches indeed Heresie but is no Heretick Let them agree in this chief Principle or Rule of Faith and the rest wil be only material errours in them But the cause they perversly defend is inconsistent with any such submission their own Consciences and the evidence of the fact stigmatising their unlawful breach from the universal doctrin of the Church from which they rebelliously separated themselvs As to the Fathers opinion concerning the necessity of the Eucharist for Infants he must give us leave to think the Council of Trent was better informed then he as is in the precedent Apologie briefly discussed That St. Ignatius cals him a murderer of Christ who fasts Saturdaies signifies no more then that he does an action which of its nature testifies our Saviour died twice that is upon Saturday as wel as Friday though this man of truth in his first chapter vouchsafes not to admit any writings of St. Ignatius for true The aspersion laid upon St. Hierom St. Ambrose annd Tertullian as using Tragical expressions without occasion is but a gap to Libertinage and vilifying of vertue their sayings being true though this Reformer dislike them His urging that the modern points of Controversie are not resolv'd in former Creeds or Councils is of little importance for every one knows subsequent Councils have alwaies been so far from thinking it unlawful to add to the former that such additions are the very business and end of their assembling and yet as the seventh Council testify'd they confirm'd all that was either in Scripture or Tradition by binding us to these two pillars of truth He is farther troubled that divers Provinces should out of St. Hierom's authority esteem the commands they finde have been in use among their forefathers to be institutions deriv'd from the Apostles as if either the Apostles might not have left divers customs in divers places for some practices of less concernment or that in St. Hieroms time it was so hard to know when a custom of importance started if it began since the Apostles which could be scarce three hundred yeers In the last Chapter of his first Book he thinks it impossible to know the belief of the ancient Church either universal or particular touching any point of controversies now debated among us And truly as he understands the question he seems to have some reason for he professes that all the positive evidence out of Antiquity comes short of satisfying him unless we can make good that no one did in those daies secretly hold the contrary a proof that certainly none but a mad man would either expect of another or himself attempt Nevertheless this he exacts of us and therfore cites St. Hierom for the equality of Priests and Bishops though he writes expresly against it and the place he cites clearly speaks of the confusion of the names of Presbyter and Episcopus Likewise when St. Hierom testify's some Bishops held with Vigilantius he thinks that sufficient to make St. Hieroms side not universal as if Bishops could not be Hereticks He adds St. Hierom by his passionate speeches against Vigilantius derogats from the authority of his testimony I believe him if he speaks of his own party who are easily perswaded to diminish the credit of Fathers but not if he mean among Catholicks who think the modern Heretiks no better then Vigilantius and his followers Thus have we briefly pass'd over his first Book THE SIXTH SURVEY How the Authority of Fathers is infallible Yet these last five Chapters and the whole next Book will put us to the pains of explicating what Authority Catholiks give the Fathers towards decision of controversies and how they are to argue out of them if they intend to conclude any opposite opinion an Heresy To be as short and clear in this point as I can I shall begin with some propositions wherin I believe all sides agree First that the Fathers as particular Authors might erre and no one 's single testimony how eminent soever is sufficient to make a necessary Verity upon the sole account of being his judgment Secondly that seldom or never in any controversy the Fathers cited for one part are so many as to make the doctrin deliver'd a matter of Faith out of this precise reason that it is their opinion For though their multitude should arrive to the full sum of three hundred yet it exceeds not the number of Heretiks nay even Heretik Bishops who unanimously conspir'd to oppose the Catholick Faith If then all certainty of things contingent and fallible in their individuals depend upon universality and the number we discours of though great yet consider'd in its own immediate force make but a particular it cleerly follows No question can be evidently convinc'd by the pure numerosity of produced Fathers Thus far I conceive both parties are bound to consent My third proposition therfore is If a certain number of Fathers be sufficient to convince the universality of an opinion in the Church how little soever that number be 't is strong enough to support an Article of Faith not because it is their opinion but the Churches attested by them to be the Faith of the Church and by the Church to be Christs And thus remains declared what Authority Catholiks attribute to the Fathers in reference to deciding Controversy's The next point is about the exercise of this Authority how a Catholick writer may by the testimony of Fathers conclude the general Faith of the Church and consequently the infallibility of the point controverted For which we must lay these grounds First that it has always been the nature of the Catholik Church to decline communion with those Churches she esteem'd erroneons in any material point as Idolatry Superstition and the like upon which pretences our modern presumers for Reformation have separated themselvs from the present Catholik Church wherfore if there be convincing testimonies that any one particular Church so known and considerable that the neighbouring Provinces must needs take notice of its publick customs embraces any doctrin or practice yet remains still peaceably in communion with the Vniversal 't is therby convinc'd the whole Catholick Church held the same not to be Idolatrous Superstitious c. If then the point be of such a nature that one part of the contradiction must necessarily be receiv'd and the other rejected it unavoydably follows the whole Church in that Age was of the same judgment with the particular one Nor is the evidence of this proposition built upon some scrap of an ancient Writer mis-interpreted as our Adversaries would infer the
AN APOLOGY FOR RUSHWORTH'S DIALOGUES WHERIN The Exceptions of the Lords FALKLAND and DIGBY are answer'd AND The Arts of their commended DAILLé Discover'd By THO. WHITE Gent. Psal. 63. 8. Sagittae Parvulorum factae sunt plagae eorum A Paris Chez Jean Billain Ruë St. Jacques a l'ensign St. Augustin 1654. TO His ever Honoured Cosen Mr. ANDREW WHITE of the House of THUNDERSLEY Honour'd Cosen THough Kindred Education and known love all conspire to make me obnoxious to any good Counsel you please to give me yet the aversness I have from answering Books permitted me not in our last enterview to promise obedience to your directions But since that happines of seeing you an unanimous consent of other friends has made me more steadily reflect on what you desir'd and considering besides that the Doctrine of Rushworth's Dialogues takes a path not much beaten by our modern Controvertists I resolv'd to imitate the example of the penitent Son who after denial perform'd his Fathers commands Behold then here the brood hatcht and brought forth by your advice 'pray heaven it prove worthy your acknowledging which I say not to engage you in the patronage of what I deliver farther then truth shal convince your judgment or to make the World imagin these Conceptions may find shelter in your breast No I am as cruel to my writings as the Ostridge to her Eggs when once they are laid let nature play her part to foster or smother the Chickens as she pleases Let truth commend or condemn my sayings He that is ready to renounce falsity and acknowledge his weaknes is stronger then envy and beyond the shot of malice Neither have I occasion to suspect any imputation should fall upon you for this publishing my Present to you as I fear it happen'd to another friend For I apprehend I may have written here some Periods which none wil expect should be approved by you Only who understands the amplitude of your soule may know it is able to harbour with indifferency what is spoken against your own sense and consent it being the gift and task of a wise man Imperare liberis What I have perform'd wherin fail'd is your part to judg for my self I can profess I desire not to irritate the meanest person nor seek I the glory of oppugning the Greatest my ayne is to open and establish truth Frivolous and by-questions I have on set purpose avoided Whether all objections of moment are answered as I cannot affirm so I can protest I am no more conscious of declining any then of dissembling when I write my self Your affectionate Cosen and humble servant THO. WHITE Paris Sept. 21. 1652. A Second DEDICATION to the same Person Learned and by me ever to be honour'd Cosen T Is so long since the former Address to you was written that no wonder it should now be asham'd to come abroad without some excuse to justify the slowness of its pace which is no other then a simple protest that it has not stuck in my hands for at least a whol yeer and an half Upon these few words I could sit down and confidently promise my self your pardon But emergent imputations force me to a larger Apology The expedition in some other late Works of mine rendring the seeming neglect of this more obnoxious to exception as if I were rather ambitious to display the errors of some of our own side then the enormities of professed Enemies and your self are conceiv'd to have a part in this suspition Now since from that long and constant commerce you have stil maintain'd with true Vertue Learning I cannot but expect a great rationality and amplitude in your Soul even to bear with the defectuousnes of others as far as you see they govern themselvs by that measure of understanding which God affords them I find my self oblig'd to give you the best account I can of my proceedings which I doubt not wil prove so much an easier task as you with whom I am to deal are of a higher strain then our trivial discoursers for as I think those who set up their rest that there is no science to be attain'd by study are pardonable if they chuse opinions by pretence of devotion or reality of interest So I give my cause for lost if they be my Judges But I hope the great fire of truth which first kindled in my young breast a glowing of it and an earnestnes of seeking it in St. Thomas his way has not been by length of time as much quench'd in you as quickn'd in me and therfore with a ful confidence I represent my Case to you not doubting but the evidence I produce wil justifie if not the action it self at least the necessity I have to act as long as the present perswasion is not forc'd from me To come then to my Plea If St. Peter commands us to be ready to give satisfaction to all that shall ask it concerning the hope that is in us by which is meant our belief the basis and firm support of our hope If the design of all that meddle with this sort of study should chiefly aim to shew that the doctrins of Christianity are conformable to reason and such as a prudent Person though also learned may imbrace without prejudice either to his discretion or knowledge If the suggesting to our first parents that God sought to govern them like fools without the least discernment betwixt good or evil be the greatest and unworthiest calumny Satan himself could invent to charge upon the Almighty If it be the basest condition that can befal a rational Essence and the most contrary both to God and man whose natures consist in knowing and reasoning what can I conclude but that such Teachers as for ignorance or interest obstinately resolve in treating with those who are out of the Church to maintain opinions wherof no account can be made either out of Antiquity or Reason are unworthy the function they profess and highly obstructive to the progress of the Catholik faith You who have looked into the large Volumes of Controvertists on both sides cannot but know they are petty questions and the impugnances of private opinions that swel those vast Tomes into such an unweldy and intolerable bulk I 'm sure not only I but divers of my friends have had experience that those very opinions for opposing which I am exclaimd against have been the retardment of the most ingenious and disinteressed party of Protestants and that others who were become Catholiks out of a pure necessity which they saw of submitting themselvs to some unerring authority when they heard their faith declar'd in a rational way found themselvs eased as it were of chains and imprisonment and translated into a natural state and liberty I need not press how ulcers in our vitals are more dangerous then in our outward members and that we cannot convince others whilst our selvs are ignorant in the Points we pretend to teach them No wise
so to Religion as to be accounted Articles of Faith if they contradict some other fore-taught Article then the Argument before explicated concerning the infallibility of Tradition and the creeping in of Errours against it returns to its force If neither of these why are they false or upon what grounds condemned But peradventure he excepts not against the Truths but the obligation to believe and profess them Admitting then the additional points to be in themselvs true why will not the Opposer assent to them has he a demonstration against them No for then they could not be true Has he such Arguments that nothing opposite is equivalent to their eminent credibility No for setting aside demonstration no argument can be comparable to the Churches Authority The reason therfore if the inward thoughts be faithfully sifted will at length appeare no other then the preferring his own Opinion before the judgement of the Church which being the effect of an obstinate and malepert pride makes no legitimate excuse for not believing THE FOURTH ENCOUNTER That unlearned Catholiks rely upon the infallibility of Tradition THe next exception is of main importance for it undermines the demonstration at the very root denying that the Church of Rome relys on Tradition and having divided the believers into learned and unlearned first undertakes to prove the unlearn'd not to be grounded on Tradition at least not for their whole Faith For if a question arise never thought on before and once a Council determine the Controversie that decree is accepted as if it had come from Christ by Tradition and all professe a readiness to obey and therfore are like to perform their word if occasion be offerd Besides in Catechisms and instructions the Common-people are not taught that the doctrine comes handed down to them from the Apostles In Sermons we see when any proposition of difficulty or concernment is treated proofs are alleag'd out of Scripture and ancient Fathers a practise even the fathers themselvs continually observe who having propos'd a point are ready to adde it is not they alone that teach this doctrin but the Apostles or Christ or some renouned Father never mentioning Tradition unlesse to oppose or disable it when some Hereticks have laid claim to it as the Quartadecimans Chyliasts Communicants of Infants and the like The charge I confess is fierce let us see what powder it bears what shot We agree the Church comprehends both learned and unlearned and so are bound to maintain that both sorts rely on Tradition As for the first objection then concerning the readiness to embrace a Councils definition with the same assent as if the truth were descended by Tradition I can either and indifferently grant or deny it Since if I please to grant it I have this secure retreat that a conditional proposition has no force unless the condition be possible and for the possibility of the condition I distinguish the subject which may be matter of Practice and Obedience or a speculative proposition Of the first I can allow the assent to be the same that is an equal willingness to observe it Of the second I deny it ever was or can be that a Council should define a question otherwise then by Tradition Therefore to rely on the Councils definition taks not away but confirms the relying on Tradition This if need were I could easily justifie by the expresse proceedings of all the principal Councils Thus the condition having never been put nor supposed ever will be all this Argument rests solely on the Objectors credit and is with as much ease rejected as it was proposed Now should I chuse according to my above reserv'd liberty to deny such equality of assent the Opponent has offerd no proof and so the quarrel is ended for though I could produce instances to the contrary I think it not fit to multiply questions when the argument can be solved with a simple denial But how the Opponent can justify the second branch of his exception that in Catechisms this doctrin is not taught I am wholly ignorant As far as my memory will serve me I never heard the Creed explicated but when the Catechist came to the Article of the Catholick Church he told them how Catholick signify'd an universality of place and time and that for this title of Catholick we were to rely on her testimony Likewise in the word Apostolick he noted that the Apostles were the founders of the Church and her doctrin theirs as being first receiv'd from them and conserv'd by the Church ever since and that for this reason we were to believe her Authority Thus you see that famous phrase of the Colliers faith is built on this very principle we maintain True it is Catechists do not ordinarily descend to so minute particularities as to tel ignorant people whether any position may be exempt from this general Law But then we also know the rule Qui nihil excipit omnia includit Sermons upon which the third instance is grounded are of another nature their intention being not so much literally to teach the Articles of Christian doctrin as to perswade and make what is already believ'd sink into the Auditory with a kind of willingness easiness that their faith be quickned into a principle of action to govern their lives the principal end perhaps for which the Scripture was deliver'd and recommended to us Therfore neither the common practice nor proper design or use of Sermons reaches home to make us understand on what grounds the hearts of Catholicks rely who after all disputations retire themselvs to this safe guard To believe what the Catholik Church teaches as none can be ignorant that has had the least convers with such Catholiks as profess not themselvs Divines For the last period of this objection where the Fathers are brought in to cry out against Tradition and Hereticks made the sole pretenders to that title 't is a bare assertion without so much as a thin rag of proof to cover it of which I believe hereafter we shall have particular occasion to discourse more largely Thus cannot all the diligence I am able to use find any ground of difficulty in the belief of the unlearned but that assuredly their faith is establisht on Tradition if they rely on the Church as it is Catholick and Apostolick which all profess from the gray hair to him that but now begins to lisp his Creed THE FIFTH ENCOUNTER That Catholick Divines rely on the same infallibility of Tradition T is time now to come to the second part and see what is objected against the learneder sort and the long Robe's Resolution of their faith into Tradition And first is brought on the stage a couple of great Cardinals Perron and Bellarmin the former saying out of St. Austin that the Trinity Freewill Penance and the Church were never exactly disputed before the Arians Novatians Pelagians and Donatists Whence is infer'd that as more was disputed so more was concluded therfore
a different question to ask Whether an opinion be Heresy and Whether the Maintainer be an Heretick the opinion becomes heretical by being against Tradition without circumstances but the Person is not an Heretick unless he knows there is such a Tradition Now St. Cyprians case was about a doctrin included in a practice which he saw well was the custome of the African but knew not to be so of the universal Church till some congregation of the whole Christian World had made it evident And herein consists the excuse St. Austin alledges for St. Cyprian 't is true I have no assurance this Apology can be alledged for John 22. but another perhaps may that the multitude of Fathers which he conceiv'd to be on his side might perswade him the opposite opinion could not be a constant Tradition There remains only Bellarmins excuse to be justify'd which is not of so great moment Divines helping themselvs by the way that occurrs best to them and missing in such reasons without any scandal to their neighbours One of these two solutions will generally satisfie all such objections as are drawn from some fathers mistakes against the common Faith For nothing can be more certain then if any Father had known the doctrin contrary to his errour to have been universally taught in the Catholik Church by a derivation from their ancestors beyond the memory of any beginning he would readily without dispute have submitted to such an Authority and so much the sooner as he being neerer the Fountain could less doubt that the stream of which he saw no other rise reach'd home to the Spring-head This therfore is evident that whoever erred knew nothing of such a Tradition whencesoe're that ignorance took its root the severall causes of which depend upon the several cases of their mistakes here not pressed and therfore not examin'd THE SIXTH ENCOUNTER Disabling three other Arguments brought against Tradition THe seventh objection pretends not only different but opposite Traditions might be deriv'd from the Apostles And this they support with these two crutches one consists in a demurrer that the contrary is not proved the other in an Instance that it plainly hapned so in the case of the Quartadecimani who inherited from St. John a certain custom which was condemned by a practice deriv'd from some other Apostles But the weaknesse of this objection appears by its very proposal For since all Catholicks when they speak of Tradition deliberately and exactly define it to be a Doctrine universally taught by the Apostles we may safely conclude where two Apostles teach differently neither is Tradition And that this word universally may not seem by slight of hand cog'd into the definition on purpose to take away this objection the necessity of it is evident because all that weare the name of Christian unanimously agreeing that in point of truth one Apostle could not contradict another wherever two such Traditions are possible to be found it absolutely follows no point of truth is engaged An inference expresly verified in the example of the Quartadecimans their contention being meerly about a Ceremony not an Article of Faith Wherfore only indifferent and unnecessary practises are subjects of such a double Tradition and by consequence such Traditions are not of Christian beliefe or concerning matters here in controversy this very definition rather directly excluding them The eighth Argument seems to take its rise from our own confessions telling us We acknowledge some points of Faith to have come in later then others and give the cause of it that the Tradition whereon such points rely was at the beginning a particular one but so that yet at the time when it became universal it had a testimony even beyond exception by which it gain'd such a general acknowledgment The example of this is in certain Books of Scripture as the Epistle to the Hebrews and the Apocalyps whereof in St. Jerom's time the Greek Churches refus'd the one and the Latin the other yet now both have prevaild into an universal reception To which I return this clear answer 't is the nature of things acted that depend on Physical and mutable causes to have divers degrees in divers parts according to the unequall working of the Causes and so Christ having deliver'd by the hands of his Apostles two things to his Church his Doctrin as the necessary and substantial aliment thereof and his Scriptures ad abundantiam it was convenient the strength of Tradition for one should far exceed its strength for the other yet so that even the weaker should not fail to be assured and certain Upon this reason the Doctrin was deliver'd to all the Apostles and by them to the whol community of Christians the Scriptures to some particular person or Church yet such whose credit was untainted and from them by degrees to be spread through the whol Church and communicated to the Pastors in the Books themselvs to the people by their Pastors reading and explications For who does not know before Printing was invented the Bible was not every mans money Whence it appears Scriptures are derived to us by a lower degree of Tradition then that of Catholik doctrin and consequently our Faith and acceptance due to them is not of so high a nature as what we are bound to in respect of doctrin For the sense of Scripture is to be judged by the doctrin as the Church and custom of Antiquity teaches us alwaies commanding and practising that no man exercise his wits in interpreting the holy Scripture against the receiv'd Faith of the Church as in all matters of science they who are Masters in the Art judge the text of Books written upon such subjects by their unwritten skil and practical experience And here I would willingly ask what such Protestants as object this to us can answer for themselvs since they directly professe not to know Scripture by the Spirit and therfore must necessarily rely on Tradition especially those who take for their rule to accept only such Books for Canonical as were never doubted of for they cannot deny but the Scriptures were receiv'd in one Church before another as the Epistles of St. Paul St. John or St. Marks Gospel c. and how do they admit the Apocalyps so long refused by the Greek Churches whom they use to prefer before the Latin But they presse us farther that if a particular Tradition became universal this depended on the Logick of those Ages to discern what testimony was beyond exception I demand what signifies Logick do they mean common sense sufficient to know three and four make seven or wit enough to comprehend and manage with a just degree of discretion the ordinary occurrences in humane actions If they do I must confess it depends on Logick For I cannot think God Almighty deliver'd the Scriptures to Apes or Elephants who have a meer imitation of reason in their outward carriage but to Men that have truly understanding and a capacity of evidence within
stand to wit that it was to finde out whether parties opinion was conformable to St. Austin But if I mistake not my Adversaries make not the same apprehension of it that I do They seem to take St. Austin for one Doctour peradventure a great one peradventure the chief but yet only one I apprehend him as the leading Champion of the Church in the Question of Grace whence it follows that the Doctrin of St. Augustin was the Doctrin of all those Catholick Writers by whose demonstrations and authority the Pelagians were condemned that is it was the faith of the Church in that age and consequently which the Church continued ever after Father because St. Austin neither had the Authority to bring in a new Faith nor pretends it but both proves his dictrin to have descended from his Forefathers and found Pelagius his opinion condemned before he medled with it by some Council that is by the apprehensions of the then present Church and as it spread from Country to Country was stil found contrary to the receiv'd doctrin every where planted in their hearts before Pelagius contradicted it Therefore I say I cannot but esteem that in the point of Grace it is all one to say the Doctrin of St. Austin and the Doctrin of the Apostles planted by them and continued to St. Austins daies illustrated by him and transmitted to his posterity even to our present time If this be true as no Catholik can deny nor prudent person doubt but we esteem it so Pope Clement had great reason to endeavour the decision of that question by the Authority of St. Austin since the doctrin of St. Austin was evidently the faith of that Age and the faith of that Age the faith of the Christian Church from the Apostles to us But we have another quarrel about St. Austins doctrin that It is so uncertain himself knew not what he held Nor do I wonder such a thought should fall into the head of a Gentleman-Divine especially in a Liberty of wit to censure without the least respect or reverence of Antiquity But I tremble to hear that some of whom we are in justice as wel as charity bound to expect more staydness and Religion seem so wedded to their own Sect as to mutter the same My answer I believe is already understood I say therefore such as have made it a principal employment of their lives to be perfect in St. Augustin those who with great attention had read his Polemical Treatises against the Pelagians as I take it some five and thirty times were of another mind And so are all those who at this day study him not to make him speak what they think but to make themselvs speak what he thinks But this question transiit in rem judicatam since when it was handled at Rome before the Congregations when both oppositions and defences were solemnly made by the proof of present books when the maintainainers of the opinion accus'd of Pelagianism were the choicest wits and ancientest Scholers could be pickt out of that so famed Society nevertheless almost in every Congregation the sentence of St. Austin was judged to be against them as is evident both out of the printed Compendium of the Acts of those Congregations and the very manuscript Acts themselves extant at this day But let us hear the Pope himself speak Upon the 8. of July was held the second Congregation His Holiness began with these words Nos personaliter vidimus congeriem locorum quam vos qui Molinam defenditis induxistis ex Augustino nullus inventus est qui faveat immo contrarium tenuit Augustinus Vnde mirum quòd tot artibus utamini And hence it seems they were forc'd to corrupt St. Austin to the Popes face the 30 of September following which being discovered the Authour died of melancholy and disgrace Again in the tenth Congregation the same Pope taxed them Quod Scholasticis maxime suis non Scripturâ Conciliis Patribus uterentur A sign how sound their way of doctrin is how sincere their proceedings to defend it Yet 't is urged farther that the Fathers who lived before St. Austin are generally of the contrary opinion This is a simple assertion without proof and my name is Thomas I would entreat therfore such of my Readers as light on this objection to remember that the question of the force of Grace and liberty of Free will consists of two truths that seem like the Symplegades to butt at one another as long as we look at them afar off but if we make a neerer approach they shew a fair passage betwixt them So then it is not hard that one who studies the question for pleasure especially in such Fathers as wrote before the combating of the truth by Heresies should be deceiv'd by the seeming overlaying of that side which the Fathers had occasion to inculcate though they meant nothing lesse then to prejudice the verity which stands firm on the other side the fretum of this disputation Adde to this that St. Austin himself examin'd the Fathers and found in them the doctrin he maintain'd nor could it be otherwise the general apprehension of the Church being against Pelagius Therfore I shal follow the advice of the Proverb and be fearful to leap before I look especially since a great reader of St. Chrysostom solemnly profess'd he could shew as strong places in him for Grace as in St. Austin though he be the man chiefly set up against St. Austin THE EIGHTH ENCOUNTER Shewing our Ladies immaculate conception is not likely to become an Article of Faith AS for the state of the question about our Ladies being conceiv'd in Original sin some would willingly perswade us the Negative is in great probability to be defin'd whereas certainly there is no Tradition for it if Wadding's sayings be rightly reported But if defining signifies the clearing of Tradition as we explicate it nothing can be more evident then that there is no probability of defining the negative part rather it may be in danger of being at least censured for rashly putting an exception in the generall rule of Scripture which expresly condemns all but our Saviour to Original sin except the defenders can shew good ground for the priviledg they pretend which I much doubt For as far as I can understand the whol warrant of that opinion stands upon a devotion to our Lady arising chiefly from a perswasion that original sin is a disgrace to the person in whom 't is found So that if the people were taught original sin is nothing but a disposition to evil or a natural weakness which unless prevented brings infallibly sin and damnation and that in it self it deservs neither reproach nor punishment as long as it proceeds not to actual sin the heat of vulgar devotion would be cool'd and the question not thought worth the examining However ther 's no great appearance of deciding that point in favour of the negative since the earnest sollicitations of
nature But the other notions are made by study and artificial proceeding and prove fals or true according as the precedent discourses are fallible or solid Even so believing is made by nature in us and is all alike in those to whom the object is proposed alike But to explicate and declare it happens differently among Doctors as they understand better or wors Now then admit all those we call Schoolmen were against the doctrine I maintain though I conceive such an universal agreement impossible unless they be supposed to demonstrate their Tenets which if they do I readily submit if not what doth it impeach the opinion I defend or what would it avail to bring one or more on my behalf whose authorities may be rejected with the same facility as offer'd since they neither carry with them security from error nor evidence of Truth let us therfore permit Divines to try out their own quarrels in their own Schools not mingling them in our business Yet to give some satisfaction let the objector answer me himself Does not the greater part of Divines seek out Tradition Yes will he say but not that Tradition which rely's on the present Church for they seek it in laborious quotations of Fathers in all ages Let 's agree then in this They seek Tradition as well as I But I pray what do they intend by so great labour in heaping of Fathers do they mean it was those Fathers opinion and so make their conclusion good because such a number of Doctors held it or do they farther pretend out of these Fathers testimonies to shew it was the publick doctrin of the Ages in which they lived If the adversary be as ingenuous as he is ingenious he will confess they pretend to argue the publick belief out of this numerous Catalogue Nevertheless for fear some other may be more reserv'd let 's remember what was before objected that some points have been defin'd notwithstanding the opposition of many Fathers and this by the verdict of these Divines Whence it clearly appears that this numbring of Fathers would not make a doctrin certain to them unless they thought the sense of the respective Ages were imply'd in it Therfore in conclusion it is evident that they also rely for Faith upon the succession of it through divers ages which is the same as the Doctrin's being handed from the Apostles to us So that you see we all agree and I whom you took to be particular in this conceit am thus far of the common opinion But the adversary urges that I come to the knowledg of this succession by the testimony of the present Church wheras they who search it in Fathers find it by the consent of antiquity Suppose it be so what difference makes this It is too great a servility to be bound not to say any word but what has before faln in my adversaries way Yet at least can he justify this do not those Divines according to what himself would have them say profess that the present Churches definition makes a certainty in our Faith Admit then the present Church in a Council or otherways as it shall please those Divines should define that a point doubted of were come down by Tradition from the Apostles to us would not they say Tradition were sufficiently known by such a Testimony Surely it cannot be deny'd I ask again whether the professing a point of doctrin to be hers by receiving it from hand to hand be not to testify and define that Tradition stands for this doctrin Therfore all such Divines confess Tradition may be known by the testimony of the present Church Why then do they use such diligence in collecting so many passages out of Fathers chiefly for this reason because Sectaries deny that principle therfore they are forc'd for their satisfaction not for instruction of Catholicks to take so much pains with little thanks many times Though it be true their learned labours confirm besides some weak believer and enlighten the borders of Catholick Faith and so in themselvs are both ornamental and profitable to the Church And now what if I should add that these very Doctors hold there is no security of Faith but only by Tradition I know I am thought subject to talk Paradoxes nevertheless because it is a point important to the unity of the rule of Catholick Faith out it shall go and the discours be neither long nor obscure I ask therfore do not these Doctors require to the certainty of a Definition that the Definers proceed without malice or negligence and use all human endeavours to discover the truth I cannot answer for every particular but am sure the principal Divines require these conditions otherwise they doubt not but the definitions may be erroneous I ask again what certainty can we have of this proceeding of the Definitors or was there ever Council yet against which the condemned Party did not cry out that they had fail'd in observing them I conclude therfore two things first that in the Churches definitions of this nature there can be no more then the certainty of moral Prudence according to these mens opinions if they follow their own grounds Secondly that there is no Moral quarrel betwixt Sectaries and them concerning the infallibility of such definitions for the exception generally in the first condemnation of any heresy rises from this part Whether the Judg proceeded equally and not Whether if he did so his authority were to be rejected there being seldom found so blind a boldness in any as to say a Judge does him wrong and yet proceeds rightly for either he judges what he understands not and that 's rashness or seeing the right he pronounces wrong and that 's malice both which are unexcusable from injustice So that I believe in this point they do not assure the Church against Hereticks though both sides should agree in the speculative part that the Difinitors were infallible I know Divines say Catholiks are bound to believe the Definitor proceeded as he ought unlesse the contrary be evident and I see they speak with a great deal of reason but withall I see this maxim is a principle of Obedience and Action not of Infallibility and belief I have yet a little scruple about this doctrin For either the Definitors are assur'd the doctrin they define is true or no If not how can it be said they proceed rationally who determin a position as certain which they see not to be so If they are then the Opinion was certain before the Definition on some ground precedent to and independent of it and so not made certain by the definition but only declar'd to the ignorant by the Authority of the Definer that it was and is certain upon other grounds Now excepting Tradition Scripture and Definitions I know not any thing men seek into for an irrefragable Autority Therefore what is defin'd must be before certain either by Scripture or by Tradition Let those Divines now chuse which
connexion as the severest discourses of those Philosophers yet the style wherin they are couch'd in the Bible is accommodated to vulgar capacities and the delivery by way of plain and direct affirmation without attending to the artificial rules of demonstration But because no controversy can be clear and fit for decision unless it be prepar'd by an exact and rigorous stating the Question I first intend to set down my own sentiment which I conceive is also that of the Catholick Church and afterward what I collect to be the opinion of my Adversaries leaving them this free and just liberty to correct me if I mistake their mind First then we Catholiks no way doubt but the Scripture is the word of God and of infallible truth if rightly understood and that whoever being out of the Church receives the Scripture in that quality the ground of such reception if rational can be no other then because we taught him so and deliver'd it to him as such For I do not intend to dispute against those Spiritati who by an Enthusiastical light can judge of Scripture without sense and reason And to those who pretend either Fathers or other Christians out of our Church I answer my meaning is to comprehend in our Church the Fathers for so goes our position and consequently all Sects either receiv'd the Scripture immediately from us or from those who received it from us Secondly we doubt not but the Scripture is highly profitable for the enablement of Preachers to teach reprove confirm in all points of Catholik doctrin both concerning Speculation and Practice and by consequence that the Church were not so thoroughly furnisht for all kind of exigenccis without it for which reason it is of particular usefulness and indeed necessity to the Church Thirdly we confesse the Bible contains all parts of Catholik Doctrine in this sense that all Catholik doctrin may be found there by places and arguments be deducted thence nay more be topically or Oratorially proved out of it so that if an able Preacher be in a Pulpit where he speaks without contradiction with a full and free scope he may meerly discoursing out of Scripture carry any point of Catholik doctrin before the generality of his Auditory and convince at the present such a part of them as either are but indifferently speculative or have not taken pains in the question Fourthly I affirm that if any point be brought to an eristicall decision before Judges where the parties on both sides are obstinately bent to defend their own positions by all the art they can imagin so the question be not which part is true but only which is more or less conformable to Scripture the Catholik position may be victoriously evidenced by arguments purely drawn from thence compared and valued according to true Criticism without ayd of Fathers explications or any other extrinsecal helps Thus far I esteem all good Catholiks ought to hold and believe that all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doe de facto hold Now then to come to the true difference betwixt our Adversaries and us I understand it consists in this That having stated a material point as whether that which we see and touch in the Eucharist be truly Christs body or only a figure of it it self remaining substantially Bread and that this question be to be handled contentiously before Judges each party pretending to convince and demonstrate by quotation of places critically exalted to their highest force whether the Scripture I say be a sufficient Storehouse to furnish either side with Texts unavoidable and convincing beyond any shadow of reply in the judgement of sworn and expert judges who are wel practis'd what convincing signifies and how much the various acceptions of words and mutability of meanings import in the construction of sentences This is that wherin I engage the Catholik Negative and suppose all Adversaries must hold the Affirmative And the first reason of my supposition is because I never see them attempt any other way of disputing but out of Scripture nor yet in that do they use so fair play as to put the places which favour them on the page of receipts and those which Catholiks bring to the contrary upon that of expences and then having by rules of good Criticism examined the qualities of both prefer that party which is more deserving Next I know not how that man dare shew his face before any person of common sense who shal first acknowledg he goes against the opinion of the whole present Age wherin he lives against the undoubted testimony of a thousand years before him against the known laws both spiritual and temporal publikely renouncing all obedience to all kinds of Magistrate empower'd by God and Man with just authority to conserve those laws that shal accuse all his kindred Ancestors and whole Country of blindness and ignorance and pretend all the world is bound to desert them and follow him and this in a matter concerning no less an interest then Eternity and after all this so arrogant bawling and high demands being ask'd what evidence what proof he can bring to introduce so great a mutation in the world shal be forc'd to confess he can but play at cross and pile with them to know which of the two sentences is true which fals For setting aside real and irrefragable conviction what is there left in speculation but meer contingency Now this strange boldness this incredible presumption was undeniably Luthers case and if his then certainly all his followers For neither is the weight and authority of so many ages become less pressing and efficacious against his adherents nor their first plea improved or amended but rather weaken'd if by his and all his fellows labours as yet no evidence is produced an infallible sign none is likely ever to be made Nor is the change of temporal laws and Princes any motive to him that goes upon pure reason and seriously ayms at the good of his soul. Again he whose discours is not convincing and yet wil be medling with truths of highest importance is either ignorant of that defect and then he deserves the name of a rash temerarious fellow that dares in a matter of such consequence advance Propositions by passion or precipitation whose quality himself understands not or else he knows he does not convince then let him at the beginning of his Sermon express so much and tel his Auditors he is come to speak to them concerning their salvation and propose new Tenets about it but in very deed he can neither prove the old Tenets are false nor those which he shall propose to be true Can any one think if the Auditory have either wit enough to discover so grosse an Impostor or never so little honesty to care what becoms of their souls or love to Christianity they wil not with great indignation pull his jump o're his eares and tumble him out of his Pulpit Now what difference is there so the mischief be done
try how solidly they proceed First then they cite certain Texts in which they say the Scripture gives us salvation But there is a wide difference betwixt giving salvation and being the whol means or adequat cause of it which is the point to be maintain'd if they wil prove the Scripture sufficient else all Faith Sacraments good works preaching c. must be absolutely excluded as unnecessary since of every one of them may be said it gives salvation Whence in common already appears these arguments are so weak and defective they carry not half way home to our question Yet let 's see at least how far they reach In the fifth of St. John Christ bids the Jews search the Scriptures because you think saith he you have eternal life in them Our Saviour was discoursing there of such as bore witness to him and having nam'd his Father and St. John at last he descends to the Scripture and tells them to this purpose You think to have life in the Scriptures though you deceive your selvs in that opinion for you have only the killing letter and not the verifying spirit Nevertheless search them for they bear witness that I am the true life to whom you will not through want of charity and love of God have recours to seek it Therfore you refuse me who come in the name of my Father a sign of Truth because I seek not mine own interest But you will receive Antichrist or some other who shall come in his own name which is a mark of deceit and falshood so pervers are you This is our Saviours discours of all which to this argument belong only these words You think you have life in the Scriptures that is if I understand the Text you deceive your selvs if you think you have life in them which surely must needs be a very strong reason to prove Scriptures give salvation though if the question were not of the Text I should make no difficulty of the conclusion And it may be noted that our Saviour descends to the proof of Scripture in the last place putting Miracles the first as motives able to convert Sodom and Gomorrha in the second Preaching specially they shewing some good affection to their Preacher St. John Lastly the mute words of Scripture And as for St. John our Saviour expresly says he cites him in condescendence to them that they might be the rather moved to embrace the truth by that esteem they had already entertain'd of their Preacher Wheras for Scripture there was only their own conceit which our Saviour seems to reprove as an humoursom and froward obstinacy that they would not be convinc'd by the palpable demonstration of his Miracles the easiest and surest way nor rest upon the preaching of his Precursor whom themselvs confess to be a Prophet nor lastly make a diligent search without prejudice into Scripture which if interpreted with charity and humility might have led them to him and salvation The next place is John 20. These things are written that you may belive that Jesus is the Son of God and believing may have life in his name T is true both Scripture and Faith give life but not the least mention made here of any such quality in either of them This only is declar'd that the end of St. Johns writing the Gospel was not to make a compleat History either of our Saviours Acts or doctrin but only to specify such particulars as prove that Christ was the true consubstantial Son of God to keep them out of the Heresy then beginning to rise that they might continue true believers in the Church of God live according to its Rules and be saved by so living that is by being true Christians or Jesuits which is certainly the sense of these words in his name or in the name of Jesus as to be baptiz'd in the name of Jesus signify's to be enroll'd among the company known to be his Now from this Text we may clearly collect that St. Johns Gospel was not written by the Authors intention for any such end as the argument urges Nor that it gives life more then this one Article does that Jesus is the true son of God Nor yet that this Article gives life but that life is to be had in the name of Christ whatever these words signify Only it may be infer'd that life cannot be had without this Article but not that this alone is able to give life or that it cannot be believ'd without St. Johns Gospel or that St. Johns Gospel of it self is sufficient to give life without the concurrence of Tradition So that there is no appearance from this proposition that life either can be attain'd by Scripture alone or cannot be had without it The third Text is out of 2 Tim. chap. 3. That the Scriptures are able to make him wise to salvation through the faith of Jesus Christ. The paraphrase of the place as I understand it is O Timothy be constant in the doctrin I have taught thee and this for two reasons One common to all converted by me because thou knowest who I am that deliver'd it to thee This is the first and principal reason the authority of the Teacher Another peculiar to thee because from thy infancy thou art vers'd in the holy Scriptures which are proper to make thee wise and understanding in the law of Jesus Christ or to promote and improve thy salvation which is obtained by the faith of Jesus So that he speaks not of Timothy's becomming a Christian but his becomming a through furnisht or extraordinary Christian a Doctor and Preacher And the ground on which I build this explication is derived from the words following where the Apostle expresses this vertue of the Scriptures being profitable to teach and reprove as also from this consideration that the sequel Be constant to my words or Doctrin because the Scripture can teach thee the truth of Christs doctrin is not very exact but rather opposite to the former and plainly inducing the contrary as if one should argue Follow not my doctrin because mine but because the Scripture teaches thee it which directly contradicts the intention of the Apostle as appears in the vers immediatly precedent Be stedfast in those things thou hast learnt knowing by whom thou wert instructed wheras this other discourse is perfectly consequential Stand to my doctrin because the Scripture confirms and seconds it making thee able to defend and prove by arguments what I have simply taught thee to be true by the sole evidence of Miracles which beget Faith not Science But to grant our Adversary the less proper sense and consequence that the Scripture was to contribute to the salvation of Timothy himself still ther 's an equivocation in those words through or by the faith of Iesus Christ which may be refer'd to those to make thee understanding Either so that the sense be The Scriptures in which thou hast been vers'd since thy infancy will contribute
understand For when I learn'd Latin Pater signified the immediate progenitour of the Son and St. Paul was of that opinion telling his Converts They had no Father but himself because he had in person begotten them by the Gospel and though by ampliation this word has included also the Parents of our Fathers and upwards even to Adam yet how it comes so to signifie the most remote as to exclude the neerest is beyond my skil in Grammar Pray let this good Definitor reflect upon himself if the first remembred of his race had died without Issue how could he have been one of his Forefathers no more had there been no Preachers after the first three hundred yeers till our time should we have accounted those Primitive Ones our Fathers That they are Fathers then is because they begot Preachers who continued the propagation of the same doctrine to our daies which we profess they did among us and that therfore we are their Spiritual Off-spring they our Fathers But Daillè and his Consorts fault is not that they contract the compass of the Fathers but that they acknowledge any For they are all Mushroms sprung up as new as the morning not so much as one from another if they be true to their tenets every one of them is bound to say to Calvin as wel as to the Saints I believe not for thy word but I have heard it from the Apostles own mouths in the Scripture Though indeed I have no reason to quarrel much with Him upon this point for if he acknowledges the word Fathers he denies the Thing or Vertue of it in them since to be a Father is to propagate Christs doctrine to posterity which quality he must of necessity deny them whilst he thinks their doctrine not to be that of Christ and that it ought by every private man be brought to the test of the Bible and so far accepted or refus'd as to the grave judgement of some judicious Blue-apron seems agreeable to the sense of Scripture This then is the pious design of this Authour To infinuate a belief that since the Apostles daies there has not been a sufficient living Witnesse of what they taught the world or what Christ taught them In which there are two notorious propositions infolded worthy to be look'd into First that these good Christians at one leap free themselves from all the bands of Community and Society of mankind and from all subjection to the Kingdom of Christ which they flatly deny For Nature teaches us there can be no Government without Judges I mean living Definitors and Deciders of occasional debates therefore if Christ has left no Judges upon Earth he has no kingdom here such Judges I speak of as should administer His Law for he came not to plant temporal Kings but a spiritual Regiment wherin if he has had no Judges since the Apostles decease his Kingdom expir'd with them Now then the whol drift of this Writer is to establish an absolute Anarchy where every one indifferently shall be Master without control in that great and principal Mystery of training up souls to eternal happiness which by how much more dark and difficult the spiritual conduct to future bliss is then temporal government to present wealth and security so much more unreasonable and unnatural must the position be that dissolvs all obedience to Ecclesiastical Superiours and abolishes all Order in the Church An assertion justly to be abhor'd by any who has the least spark of love to that only great Good the salvation of his Soul The other Proposition is that since the Apostles time there has been no publik either true doctrine or good life in that part of the World which we call Christian. I do not mean there may not have appeared some vertuous actions in private persons though perhaps the consequence might be driven so far but that all visible Companies have had both their Doctrine spotted with foul tenets and their consequent practises polluted with Superstition and Idolatry For as this is one of the main grounds for their rejecting the Fathers so the reason à priori which they alledge being once admitted evinces the truth of the Conclusion I charge upon them it being evident that if because man is fallible the Fathers are insufficient to propagate truth to their posterity and out of the position of insufficiency must of necessity follow the consequence of defect certainly then the following generations had not sufficient instruction either for belief or actions And indeed the Reformers themselvs acknowledg as much since they esteem the Fathers errours so gross that it was fit to leave the communion of that Church wherin they are defended rather then accept of such abominations Now if this be not to deny all good life and the main and universal fruit of Christs passion even in those preferr'd Ages I have lost my little wits This therfore I say is the aym and project of his Book to prove That since Christs time there has been no sufficient living testimony of the Truth of Religion no command or government of Christians as Christians and lastly no holiness or good life nor any fitting direction among mankind brought in and stated by our kind Saviour and wisest Law-giver Jesus Christ. Now how great an encouragement and advance this may prove either towards vertue or study of Religion I understand not This I know if any would purposely seek to draw off our hearts from all hope of heaven and practice of vertue I cannot imagin a more efficacious argument then First to tell how much pains our Saviour had taken to plant a right Faith and Christian life in so many years of example and Preaching closing all with such strange unparalleld suffrings Nay that he had sent the Holy Ghost in so manifest and glorious a manner from heaven upon his Disciples to fire their hearts with zeal and impower their hands to Miracles giving them Commission to publish his new Law over all the World and solemnly engaging to assist them for ever And yet afterwards bring in proofs how notwithstanding all this soon as these Apostles were dead Idolatry and corruption both of doctrin and manners began presently to appear in the greatest and best Members of the Church even the immediate Disciples of the Apostles and in short time so over-run the whole World that the means of Salvation was generally lost and the way to heaven obstructed with an universal deluge of vice and superstition These proofs are the work of our excellent Author whence I think it no boldness to conclude this Treatise of the right use of the Fathers is the perfectest piece that ever was written for the utter extermination of Christian doctrin and absolute ruin of all vertue For when I turn o're the Book I cannot but acknowledg it full of as good Topicks cast into as neat a stile and qualify'd with as seeming a fit temper conveniently to betray unwary souls as any modern I ever read but
proceeded from or by the Son only both which terms were then in use for this and nothing els can be signify'd by proper added to from or by then he condemn'd St. Cyrils doctrin Now our sly Interpreter would make Theodoret condemn this saying that the Holy Ghost proceeded from the Son His last reason is one that makes all the rest impertinent and shews they were dilated only to vilify the Saints and the Church whose Crown they are and the Founder of the Church who glorify'd himself in Them and Her 'T is that the Church of Rome and Protestants agree in the position he seemed to labour at so hard what need or occasion had he then to rave into the Fathers about a point wherin there is not the least difference among us Next he excepts at our Controvertists for alledging the Fathers against them since we know they receive not the Fathers I answer there is by nature planted in all honest dispositions such a respect to their Ancestors that though the malicious part of their congregation and this Sophister in chief cry down Antiquity as loud as they can yet shal they never be able wholly to root out of the hearts and consciences of the generality of Christians that esteem and reverence which they naturally bear in their Breasts towards the Fathers of Christianity So that our Controvertists cite writings of those ancient and holy Doctors not in reference to the ensoured and barbarous party of Hereticks but for their sakes who yet retain some spirits of goodness and Christian humanity in them Then he brings divers sayings of Moderns to prove the Authorities of Fathers are not irresistible especially in the interpretation of Scripture among which one somthing insolent Afterwards he reckons the varieties betwixt the ancient and present Church some in Ceremonies some in Disciplin and some as he pretends in Belief these later we have touch'd before the two former for the most part we make no difficulty to acknowledge since the prudential disposure of such discretionary points fals cleerly within the verge of the Churches jurisdiction But here I particularly invite the Ey of the serious Reader to observe how maliciously he corrupts the Council of Trent in two very considerable passages one where he says It anathematizes whoever shall deny that Bishops are a higher Order then Priests wheras in the Latin which himself has the boldness to cite truly in the Margin ther 's no such word to be found as Order but only that Bishops are superiores Presbyteris a phrase implying no necessiy at all of their being several Orders though in that word consists the whole emphasis of his fals imputation His other abuse is yet more gross and palpable concerning our Ladies immaculate Conception for the Council expresly declaring their intention was not to meddle with the Question he says 't is impossible so to expound their words that they shall in plain terms give the ly to all the Fathers and to render this foul play the more plausible among such as look not wel to his fingers he translates in hoc decreto falsly and perversly in this number as if the Council had positively decreed the Blessed Virgin not to be in the number of those who are born in original sin when their very words directly tel him they on purpose resolv'd to prescind from her particular Case and not determin any thing concerning It in that Decree Certainly had this man either face or conscience an ordinary malice could never have engag'd him into such a desperate absurdity so notorious that its practice cannot be unknown even to him though he shut his Eyes against the light since all disputers upon this point unanimously agree that the Council intended wholy to abstract from the question and leave both sides probable nevertheless this shameless forehead dares in such broad and unmannerly language not only slander a grave and venerable Council but outface the whol Catholick world What trust can be given to so bold a Jugler in matters either of less moment or less evidence when in a Case so important as the Decree of a Council and so palpably manifest that all that can read may easily discover the cheat yet he blushes not to venter on 't can any thing be answered in his defence or any excuse made why he should not be accounted an impudent lying knave THE NINTH SURVEY In answer to two Questions in his last Chapter One the Fathers being rejected to what Judg we ought to recur The other what use is to be made of the Fathers ALl this while our new Edifyer of the reform'd Temple has us'd only his Sword-hand to keep off those dangerous enemies the Fathers now he begins to manage his trowel and bedawb the face of antiquity with a little fine morter Let 's see at least what work he makes though we have smal reason to expect any good building from him that is not able so much as to pull down Thus then workman-like he enters upon his task demanding of himself this question the Fathers being rejected where shall we now lay our foundation to what Rule or Judge must we have recourse He answers To the Scripture and if in any one place it seem obscure we must then seek out another to clear it Which first supposes that for all points necessary there are some evident and clearing Texts But I must ask on what Authority he believes this doth the Scripture declare it so plainly that ther 's no debate about it He knows the whole Catholik Church denys any such self-evident alsufficiency in Scripture Did they who delivered him and his Brethren the Bible recommend it to them under this qualification No for his party went out of the Catholik Church and receiv'd the Scriptures from none but Her who never taught them any such lesson Perhaps you 'l say all other Christians testify'd the verity of that book and so upon their credit you are the more induc'd to accept it But those Christians are such as your selvs generally condemn such as have been cast out for taking this very proposition to justifie their rebellion against Her whom you acknowledge then to have been the true Owner and Mistris of Christs Doctrin Besides any one that has but half an Ey may see no Scripture-disputation with Heretiks was ever finisht without new reply's but the Church has alwaies been forc'd at last to condemn them upon the score of Tradition Thus you borrow'd this desperate device from those who in all ages were thrust out of the same Church for holding the very same principles But suppose there were some clear Texts in our Controversies as we think there are in disfavour of you may they not be rendred obscure by other places objected against them which we pretend you endeavour to doe If so your remedy is worse then the evil and the comparing of divers places is the very cause that makes all balanceable indifferent and obscure Are we not now