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reason_n doctrine_n method_n use_v 6,868 5 9.9046 5 true
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A63577 A true narrative of the Portsmouth disputation, between some ministers of the Presbyterian, and others of the Baptist, persuasion, concerning the subjects and manner of baptism held in Mr. Williams's meeting-place there on Wednesday, Feb. 22. 1698/9. The managers for the Presbyterians were, Mr. Samuel Chandler of Fareham. Mr. Leigh of Newport in the Isle of Wight. Mr. Robinson of Hungerford in Berks, moderator. For the Baptists were, Dr. William Russel of London. Mr. John Williams of East Knoyle in Wiltshire. Mr. John Sharp of Froome in Somersetshire, moderator. Transcribed from two copies taken at the dispute; the one by Mr. Bissel Town-Clerk of Portsmouth, and the other by Mr. Samuel Ring. Revis'd and publish'd by Dr. William Russel. Bissel, Mr.; Ring, Samuel.; Russel, William, d. 1702. 1699 (1699) Wing T2806A; ESTC R215290 67,061 90

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our_o moderator_n feb._n 23._o 1698-9_a mr._n leigh_n and_o himself_o be_v together_o at_o mr._n williams_n house_n in_o portsmouth_n there_o come_v in_o mr._n erle_n mr._n bowler_n and_o mr._n farrel_n three_o presbyterian_a minister_n and_o there_o be_v two_o other_o baptist_n present_a at_o the_o same_o time_n mr._n farrel_n in_o the_o presence_n of_o the_o forementioned_a minister_n salute_v mr._n john_n williams_n the_o disputant_n after_o this_o manner_n mr._n williams_n i_o must_v tell_v you_o and_o that_o not_o as_o my_o own_o sentiment_n only_o but_o as_o the_o sentiment_n of_o every_o one_o of_o our_o brethren_n that_o what_o credit_n be_v gain_v to_o your_o cause_n be_v gain_v by_o you_o mr._n leigh_n ask_v mr._n williams_n whether_o we_o do_v infer_v from_o those_o word_n that_o the_o minister_n have_v grant_v out_o of_o their_o own_o mouth_n that_o we_o have_v gain_v the_o cause_n his_o reply_n be_v no_o all_o that_o we_o infer_v from_o it_o be_v this_o that_o it_o be_v a_o implicit_a concession_n that_o there_o be_v credit_n gain_v to_o our_o cause_n mr._n leigh_n say_v how_o much_o credit_n do_v we_o infer_v be_v grant_v by_o they_o to_o our_o cause_n mr._n williams_n say_v we_o do_v not_o know_v the_o quantity_n of_o it_o mr._n leigh_n reply_v true_o it_o be_v but_o a_o little_a credit_n that_o be_v grant_v out_o of_o our_o own_o mouth_n that_o be_v gain_v to_o your_o cause_n to_o which_o mr._n williams_n answer_v that_o if_o there_o be_v a_o little_a credit_n grant_v out_o of_o their_o own_o mouth_n than_o there_o be_v credit_n gain_v to_o our_o cause_n grant_v by_o themselves_o which_o be_v no_o far_o deny_v by_o mr._n leigh_n but_o what_o be_v speak_v by_o mr._n john_n williams_n in_o the_o dispute_n be_v abundant_o short_a than_o what_o dr._n russel_n do_v then_o speak_v thus_o far_o as_o to_o mr._n williams_n account_n notwithstanding_o all_o this_o whilst_o they_o be_v make_v these_o concession_n at_o portsmouth_n they_o let_v fly_v a_o 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the_o people_n from_o hear_v what_o be_v say_v especial_o when_o they_o be_v pinch_v upon_o a_o argument_n for_o which_o reason_n it_o be_v think_v convenient_a to_o publish_v it_o that_o what_o they_o can_v not_o be_v permit_v quiet_o to_o hear_v they_o may_v have_v the_o benefit_n to_o read_v without_o interruption_n and_o so_o have_v leisure_n to_o consider_v it_o but_o two_o the_o principal_a cause_n thereof_o be_v those_o advertisement_n they_o send_v all_o over_o the_o nation_n to_o misrepresent_v the_o dispute_n and_o blind_a the_o eye_n of_o the_o unthinking_a about_o it_o whereas_o this_o publication_n will_v set_v the_o matter_n in_o a_o true_a light_n and_o let_v all_o man_n see_v that_o they_o have_v neither_o scripture_n nor_o any_o good_a consequence_n deduce_v from_o thence_o to_o prove_v their_o
plunge_a or_o overwhelm_v the_o person_n baptize_v into_o the_o water_n and_o raise_v he_o up_o again_o out_o of_o it_o 2._o that_o this_o be_v the_o only_a right_a way_n of_o perform_v this_o ordinance_n i_o prove_v thus_o if_o there_o be_v no_o other_o way_n practise_v by_o john_n the_o baptist_n christ_n nor_o his_o apostle_n but_o what_o do_v represent_v a_o burial_n and_o a_o resurrection_n then_o we_o be_v the_o only_a right_a way_n of_o baptise_v but_o there_o be_v no_o other_o way_n practise_v by_o john_n the_o baptist_n christ_n nor_o his_o apostle_n but_o what_o do_v represent_v a_o burial_n and_o a_o resurrection_n ergo_fw-la we_o be_v the_o only_a right_a way_n of_o baptise_v mr._n chandler_n you_o be_v to_o prove_v that_o because_o baptism_n be_v significant_a of_o a_o burial_n and_o resurrection_n therefore_o it_o must_v be_v do_v only_o by_o dip_v dr._n russel_n by_o this_o mr._n chandler_n grant_v that_o baptism_n do_v signify_v a_o burial_n and_o resurrection_n and_o i_o have_v already_o prove_v that_o therefore_o it_o be_v the_o only_a right_a way_n of_o baptise_v that_o we_o practise_v because_o there_o be_v no_o other_o practise_v in_o those_o first_o time_n of_o the_o gospel_n and_o till_o he_o give_v a_o instance_n to_o the_o contrary_a my_o proof_n stand_v good_a but_o i_o shall_v far_o prove_v it_o by_o this_o argument_n if_o there_o can_v no_o instance_n be_v give_v that_o ever_o the_o apostle_n do_v baptise_v other_o way_n than_o by_o dip_v then_o we_o be_v the_o right_a way_n of_o baptise_v but_o there_o 〈◊〉_d be_v no_o instance_n give_v that_o ever_o the_o apostle_n do_v baptise_v other_o way_n than_o by_o dip_v ergo_fw-la we_o be_v the_o right_a way_n of_o baptise_v mr._n leigh_n i_o deny_v the_o enumeration_n in_o your_o argument_n for_o it_o do_v not_o follow_v that_o because_o the_o apostle_n do_v not_o practice_v it_o any_o other_o way_n that_o there_o be_v no_o other_o that_o do_v for_o there_o be_v divers_a other_o minister_n in_o 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〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d signify_v in_o as_o well_o as_o into_o and_o be_v often_o so_o translate_v in_o the_o new_a testament_n dr._n russel_n that_o it_o may_v sometime_o so_o signify_v where_o the_o scope_n of_o the_o place_n may_v show_v it_o i_o will_v not_o contend_v but_o you_o know_v very_o well_o that_o where_o it_o be_v join_v with_o a_o accusative_a as_o it_o be_v here_o it_o signify_v into_o and_o i_o can_v show_v that_o our_o translator_n have_v so_o render_v it_o in_o many_o place_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n and_o it_o will_v many_o time_n be_v nonsense_n to_o understand_v it_o otherwise_o i_o will_v give_v you_o some_o instance_n of_o it_o in_o the_o room_n of_o many_o that_o may_v be_v give_v as_o in_o john_n 3._o 17._o god_n send_v not_o his_o son_n into_o the_o world_n to_o condemn_v the_o world_n but_o that_o the_o world_n through_o he_o may_v be_v save_v here_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d be_v render_v into_o for_o the_o word_n in_o the_o greek_a be_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d and_o i_o hope_v you_o will_v not_o deny_v that_o god_n send_v christ_n into_o the_o world_n and_o in_o 1_o tim._n 1._o 15._o christ_n jesus_n come_v into_o the_o world_n to_o save_v sinner_n etc._n etc._n there_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d be_v also_o translate_v into_o and_o i_o hope_v you_o will_v not_o deny_v that_o christ_n come_v into_o the_o world_n to_o save_v sinner_n it_o be_v join_v with_o the_o same_o word_n as_o in_o john_n 3._o 17._o before_o recite_v and_o in_o luke_n 4._o 16._o it_o be_v say_v he_o go_v into_o the_o synagogue_n on_o the_o sabbath-day_n and_o stand_v up_o for_o to_o read_v here_o again_o it_o be_v so_o render_v for_o the_o word_n be_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d into_o the_o synagogue_n and_o the_o eye_n of_o all_o they_o that_o be_v in_o the_o synagogue_n be_v fasten_v on_o he_o ver_fw-la 20._o which_o can_v not_o have_v be_v have_v he_o not_o go_v into_o the_o synagogue_n as_o it_o be_v manifest_a he_o do_v and_o i_o hope_v you_o will_v not_o deny_v that_o christ_n go_v into_o the_o synagogue_n but_o you_o may_v do_v it_o with_o as_o much_o colour_n of_o reason_n as_o to_o say_v he_o be_v not_o dip_v or_o plunge_v of_o john_n into_o the_o river_n of_o jordan_n when_o the_o same_o word_n be_v use_v in_o the_o same_o sense_n and_o beside_o if_o we_o do_v but_o consider_v those_o multitude_n that_o john_n baptise_a in_o the_o river_n of_o jordan_n and_o other_o place_n where_o there_o be_v much_o water_n we_o have_v no_o reason_n to_o doubt_v of_o the_o truth_n thereof_o mr._n leigh_n we_o allow_v that_o what_o can_v be_v now_o use_v without_o be_v burdensome_a may_v be_v more_o commodious_a in_o that_o day_n and_o observe_v in_o that_o hot_a country_n of_o judaea_n when_o there_o be_v so_o many_o come_v to_o john_n to_o be_v baptise_a and_o therefore_o it_o may_v be_v that_o they_o go_v out_o to_o river_n but_o i_o will_v argue_v upon_o a_o probability_n it_o be_v well_o know_v in_o those_o hot_a country_n the_o people_n wear_v sandal_n and_o they_o may_v go_v into_o the_o water_n a_o little_a way_n to_o wash_v their_o foot_n now_o i_o offer_v this_o fair_a interpretation_n they_o may_v step_v a_o little_a way_n into_o jordan_n for_o ease_n and_o refreshment_n and_o then_o john_n may_v pour_v a_o little_a water_n on_o they_o now_o allow_v ●ut_v the_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d to_o signify_v to_o wash_v as_o we_o can_v easy_o pr●●e_v it_o be_v often_o so_o take_v in_o scripture_n and_o i_o offer_v to_o all_o the_o company_n whether_o this_o be_v not_o a_o fair_a interpretation_n of_o the_o place_n that_o john_n wash_v he_o with_o water_n he_o go_v a_o little_a
water_n matth._n 28_o 19_o onderwyst_n alle_fw-mi de_fw-fr volckeren_fw-mi deselve_fw-la dopende_v in_o den_n name_n des_fw-fr vaders_z etc._n etc._n instruct_v all_o the_o people_n dip_v the_o same_o in_o the_o name_n of_o the_o father_n etc._n etc._n mark_v 1._o 9_o end_v wiert_n van_fw-mi joanne_n gedoopt_v in_o the_o jordaen_fw-la end_v terstont_n all_o be_v by_o vyt_v her_o water_n opklaem_v etc._n etc._n and_o be_v dip_v of_o john_n in_o jordan_n and_o straightway_o as_o he_o climb_v up_o out_o of_o the_o water_n etc._n etc._n act_n 8._o 36._o wat_fw-ge verhindert_fw-ge my_o gedoopt_v te_fw-mi word_n what_o hinder_v i_o to_o be_v dip_v v_o 38._o end_v hy_z doopte_a hem_n and_o he_o dip_v he_o v_o 12._o wierden_n sy_n gedoopt_v beyde_v mannen_n end_n vrouwen_n they_o be_v dip_v both_o man_n and_o woman_n rom._n 6._o 3._o oft_o en_fw-fr wetet_fw-la ghy_fw-mi niet_fw-mi that_fw-mi so_o vele_v all_o be_v wy_fw-mi in_o christum_fw-la jesum_fw-la dedoopt_v zyn_v wy_fw-mi in_o synen_n doodt_v gedoopt_v zyn_o know_v you_o not_o that_o so_o many_o of_o we_o as_o be_v dip_v into_o christ_n jesus_n we_o be_v dip_v into_o his_o death_n and_o the_o same_o in_o coll._n 2._o 12._o and_o according_a to_o what_o i_o find_v in_o all_o other_o place_n where_o this_o ordinance_n of_o baptism_n be_v mention_v dutch_a annotation_n on_o john_n 3._o 23._o and_o john_n also_o baptise_a in_o aenon_n near_o salim_n etc._n etc._n see_v there_o be_v many_o water_n there_o that_o be_v brooks_n or_o rivulet_n or_o much_o water_n because_o they_o that_o be_v baptise_a by_o john_n go_v into_o the_o water_n with_o their_o whole_a body_n see_v matth._n 3._o 16._o act_n 8._o 38._o and_o on_o rom._n 6._o 3._o we_o be_v baptise_a into_o his_o death_n the_o apostle_n seem_v here_o to_o allude_v to_o the_o manner_n of_o baptise_v much_o use_v in_o those_o warm_a eastern_a country_n where_o man_n be_v whole_o dip_v into_o the_o water_n and_o remain_v a_o little_a while_n under_o the_o water_n to_o show_v that_o this_o dip_v into_o and_o remain_v in_o the_o water_n be_v a_o representation_n of_o christ_n death_n and_o burial_n and_o the_o rise_n up_o out_o of_o the_o water_n of_o his_o resurrection_n beza_n on_o matth._n 3._o 11._o the_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d signify_v to_o die_v by_o dip_v or_o wash_v and_o differ_v from_o the_o word_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d to_o drown_v or_o go_v down_o to_o the_o bottom_n like_o a_o stone_n causabon_n annotation_n upon_o matth_n 3_o he_o say_v immerge_v be_v the_o proper_a rite_n in_o baptism_n which_o the_o word_n itself_o sufficient_o declare_v which_o as_o it_o signify_v not_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d a_o go_v down_o to_o the_o bottom_n without_o any_o ascend_n so_o not_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d a_o swim_n like_o a_o cork_n above_o the_o water_n but_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d a_o go_v down_o and_o come_v up_o again_o tilenus_n a_o learned_a protestant_a writer_n in_o his_o disputation_n page_n 886_o 889_o 890._o say_v baptism_n be_v the_o first_o sacrament_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n institute_v by_o jesus_n christ_n the_o outward_a rite_n in_o baptism_n be_v three_o fold_n first_o immersion_n into_o the_o water_n two_o abide_v under_o the_o water_n three_o a_o rise_n again_o out_o of_o the_o water_n and_o he_o there_o show_v at_o large_a what_o a_o most_o lively_a similitude_n it_o be_v of_o the_o sorrow_n of_o christ_n which_o he_o be_v plunge_v into_o under_o divine_a justice_n and_o of_o his_o burial_n and_o resurrection_n etc._n etc._n leigh_n in_o his_o critica_fw-la sacra_fw-la he_o say_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d be_v derive_v from_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d tingo_fw-la to_o dip_v or_o plunge_v into_o the_o water_n and_o signify_v primary_o such_o a_o kind_n of_o wash_v as_o be_v use_v in_o buck_n where_o linen_n be_v plunge_v or_o dip_v it_o imply_v the_o wash_n of_o their_o whole_a body_n the_o native_a and_o proper_a signification_n of_o it_o be_v to_o dip_v into_o water_n or_o to_o plunge_v under_o water_n john_n 3._o 22_o 23._o matth._n 3._o 16._o act_n 8._o 38._o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d dip_v into_o water_n or_o wash_v with_o water_n etc._n etc._n and_o in_o his_o annotation_n on_o rome_n 6_o 4._o he_o allude_v to_o the_o manner_n in_o which_o baptism_n be_v then_o administer_v which_o be_v to_o plunge_v they_o in_o the_o water_n the_o plunge_a of_o they_o into_o water_n that_o be_v baptise_a be_v a_o sign_n of_o their_o death_n and_o burial_n with_o christ_n wollebius_n in_o his_o compendium_n etc._n etc._n speak_v of_o their_o present_a practice_n say_v the_o action_n be_v sprinkle_v of_o water_n which_o be_v usurp_v in_o the_o stead_n of_o dip_v and_o then_o add_v immersio_fw-la &_o emersio_fw-la illustre_fw-it symbolum_n fuit_fw-la sepulturae_fw-la &_o resurrectionis_fw-la christi_fw-la their_o be_v plunge_v into_o the_o water_n and_o come_v up_o again_o out_o of_o the_o water_n be_v a_o illustrious_a symbol_n of_o the_o burial_n and_o resurrection_n of_o christ_n daille_n on_o the_o father_n lib._n 2._o p._n 148._o say_v it_o be_v a_o custom_n heretofore_o in_o the_o ancient_a church_n to_o plunge_v those_o they_o baptise_a over_o head_n and_o ear_n in_o the_o water_n and_o cite_v for_o his_o authority_n tertullian_n cyprian_n epiphanius_n and_o other_o and_o this_o be_v still_o say_v he_o the_o practice_n both_o of_o the_o greek_n and_o russian_n at_o this_o day_n and_o cites_n cassander_n de_fw-fr baptismo_fw-la pag._n 193._o and_o yet_o notwithstanding_o this_o custom_n which_o be_v both_o so_o ancient_a and_o so_o universal_a be_v now_o abolish_v by_o the_o church_n of_o rome_n and_o this_o be_v the_o reason_n that_o the_o moscovite_n say_v that_o the_o latin_n be_v not_o right_o and_o due_o baptise_a because_o they_o do_v not_o use_v this_o ancient_a ceremony_n in_o their_o baptism_n also_o in_o that_o greek_a lexicon_n publish_v and_o recommend_v to_o all_o for_o the_o increase_n of_o knowledge_n and_o explain_v in_o english_a by_o mr._n joseph_n caryll_o mr._n george_n cockayne_n mr._n ralph_n vening_n mr._n william_n dell_n mr._n matthew_n barker_n mr._n william_n adderly_n mr._n matthew_n mead_n mr._n henry_n jessey_n they_o render_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d to_o dip_v plunge_v or_o drown_v in_o the_o passive_a voice_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d to_o be_v plunge_v or_o overwhelm_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d to_o dip_v in_o as_o one_o do_v his_o finger_n in_o liquor_n from_o this_o we_o may_v allow_v that_o the_o presbyterian_a minister_n do_v baptise_v their_o finger_n when_o they_o dip_v they_o into_o the_o water_n but_o can_v be_v say_v to_o baptise_v the_o child_n because_o they_o do_v not_o dip_v they_o in_o the_o water_n but_o sprinkle_v only_o a_o little_a water_n upon_o their_o face_n mat._n 26._o 23._o john_n 13._o 26._o mark_v 14._o 20._o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d to_o plunge_v to_o overwhelm_v to_o wash_v to_o dip_v mat._n 3._o 11._o john_n 1._o 25._o chap._n 3._o 26._o john_n 4._o 1._o 1_o cor._n 1._o 17._o john_n 1._o 31._o matth._n 28._o 19_o john_n 3._o 22._o john_n 4._o 2._o chap._n 1._o 28._o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d to_o be_v plunge_v to_o be_v baptise_a or_o dip_v by_o a_o metaphor_n it_o be_v take_v for_o affliction_n matth._n 20._o 22._o which_o be_v familiar_o read_v in_o scripture_n whereby_o affliction_n be_v compare_v to_o the_o gulf_n and_o whirlpool_n of_o water_n into_o which_o those_o be_v plunge_v who_o struggle_n with_o the_o misery_n and_o calamity_n of_o this_o life_n yet_o they_o be_v so_o plunge_v that_o they_o can_v lift_v up_o themselves_o again_o i_o may_v also_o add_v what_o those_o several_a great_a master_n of_o the_o greek_a tongue_n we_o scapula_n stephanus_n schrevelius_n and_o divers_a other_o have_v say_v concern_v the_o etymology_n thereof_o but_o the_o learned_a be_v so_o well_o acquaint_v therewith_o i_o shall_v only_o touch_v upon_o it_o they_o confirm_v what_o i_o have_v already_o observe_v from_o other_o they_o tell_v we_o in_o their_o lexicon_n that_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d etc._n etc._n from_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d signify_v mergo_fw-la immergo_fw-la submergo_fw-la obruo_fw-la item_n tingo_fw-la quod_fw-la fit_a immergendo_fw-la to_o dip_v to_o overwhelm_v to_o plunge_v or_o dip_v in_o to_o drown_v or_o sink_v in_o the_o water_n to_o overwhelm_v to_o dip_v or_o plunge_v to_o put_v under_o to_o cover_v clean_o over_o etc._n etc._n and_o that_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d rantizo_n be_v aspergo_fw-la to_o sprinkle_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d aspersio_fw-la sprinkle_v now_o these_o two_o different_a word_n do_v signify_v two_o different_a action_n for_o he_o that_o be_v only_o sprinkle_v can_v be_v say_v to_o be_v dip_v or_o plunge_v under_o the_o water_n