That which the Apostle commanded the Thessalouians to keepe was a sauing faith Therefore some sauing truth is contained in tradition There is no end of Bellarmines begging We must deny as before that whatsoeuer the Apostles taught is recorded and come to posteritie To the proposition I answer in particular that being vnderstood of that time when the Apostle writ that Epistle it is true he had then deliuered some things by word of mouth and not written them and those hee commandeth them to keepe But what proofe can Bellarmine make that those things were not written afterwards The assumption is not easily to be proued that those things were sauing truth Why doth not Bellarmine tell vs what they were Me thinks he dareth not so much as guesse at them otherwise he would let vs know at the least what his Catholickes worthily take them to be Would any man dally thus in a matter of faith to bee beleeued vpon paine of damnation Bellarmine will make amends for the want of weight in his reasons by the number of them and he propoundeth his fift thus to bee deliuered Bellar. ubi supra sect quaitam That which was committed to Timothy 1. Tim. 6. 20. and 2. Tim. 2. 1. 2. is contained in tradition That which was there committed to Timothy is a sauing 1. Tim. 6. 20. 2. Tim. 2. 1. 2. truth Therefore some sauing truth is contained in tradition Here he beggeth againe as before but wee cannot grant that whatsoeuer the Apostles preached is remaining vpon record to posteritie If that were granted yet should I thinke the proposition no sufficient warrant for an Article of faith Therefore Bellarmine offereth proofe of it on this maner That which Timothy had heard of Saint Paul 1. Tim. 6. 20. and 2. Tim. 2. 1. 2 and was to deliuer to faithfull men able to teach other also that is contained in tradition But that which was committed to Timothy 1. Tim. 6. 20. and 2. Tim. 2. 1. 2 he had heard of Saint Paul and was to deliuer to faithfull men able to teach other also Therefore that which was committed to Timothy 1. Tim. 6. 20. and 2. Tim. 2. 1. 2 is contained in tradition Least wee should deny the first part or Proposition of this Syllogisme because the things so delivered and given in charge by the Apostle might be matter for the present vse of the Church and such as needed not to be alwayes knowne Bellarmine telleth us that by those things so heard and so to be committed the vnderstanding of the sense of the scriptures and other doctrine is signified so that the whole force of his Argument lyeth in this interpretation which he never offereth to proue Therefore vnlesse we will take his bare word for proofe wee are as farre to seeke as we were before Now that we haue no reason to doe so I thinke it may appeare by those things which I will now propound to the consideration of all reasonable men First then I would know oâ— Bellarmine whether by Vnderstanding of the sense he meane generall rules for the vnderstanding of it or the sense of particular places Secondly I demaund whether he deliuered to him the sense oâ— euery place of Scripture or of some onely Whether he answer this or that I aske thirdly what is become of those rules and expositions How will he proue to vs that they haue beene continued from time to time till now If they haue not beene continued what haue wee to do with them who dispute onely of such traditions as are in the possession and vse of the present Church Fourthly is it likely euen in Bellarmines iudgement that Saint Paul would take vpon him to instruct Timothy in the sense of any place of Scripture when as the office of interpreting the Scripture is committed by the Councell of Trent to the Church that is as Bellarmine expoundeth it to Peter and his successours Did he meane ambitiously to vsurpe Peters office or to send him to Peter or his successours to learne of them whether the interpretation he had giuen were true or no. Touching the second part of the first Syllogisme that Those thinges which were committed to Timothy were sauing truths Bellarmine saith nothing which argueth that he knew not what to say What reason haue we then to imagine that they were sauing truths or that this argument concludeth any thing for the doctrine of the Councell of Trent concering traditions There is yet one argument more in the same fift chapter thus to be concluded Those things which Iohn had to write 2. Ioh. 11 and Bellar. ubi supra Sect. ultimum testimonium 3. Ioh. 14. are contained in tradition for he saith he would not write them But those things which he had then to write were sauing truths taught by the Apostles Therefore some sauing truths taught by the Apostles are contained in tradition I am inforced here also to repeate my former answer that Bellaâ—mine still takes it for granted that whatsoeuer the Apostles taught is continued to posteritie which we denie and no papist can proue His assumption or minor is to weake to beare vp the weight of an Article of faith vnlesse he be able to â—â—ll 〈◊〉 certainly what the things were which the Apostle would not write and to whom hee did or at the least that hee did afterward deliuer them to some body from whom the Church hath receiued them Till we know what they were how shall we be sure they were part of the sauing truth CHAP. XV. Of two other arguments of Bellarmine VVEE haue done with the fift Chapter and are now to examine two arguments set downe chap. 4 the former I frame thus That there are Scriptures that these we haue he they is â— Bellar de verbo Dei non scripto cap. 4 Sect. quarto quinto Soxio contained in tradition For we cannot find them in the Scriptures But that there are Scriptures that these wee haue are they is part of sauing truth taught by Christ and his Apostles Therefore some sauing truthes taught by Christ and his Apostles are contained in tradition It hath appeared by my answer to Bellarmines arguments that he can find no place of Scripture that sendeth vs to tradition for any part of sauing truth taught by our Lord or his Apostles Wee might therefore conclude that there are no such traditions without troubling our selues any further But that we may dit vp the mouths of the Papists wee will bestow a little time and paines in these arguments If there had beene no more intended by the Councell of Trent in the decree touching tradition but to signifie that these three points are contained in tradition the danger had not beene great for then both the number and the particulars had been determined but the Papists by vertue of that Article take authoritie to thrust what they list vpon the Church and warrant it by tradition Thus much to the argument in generall Particularly I answer
RVNNE FROM ROME OR A TREATISE SHEWING THE necessitie of Separating from the Church of Rome Disputed in these Termes EVERIE MAN IS bound vpon paine of Damnation to refuse the Faith of the Church of Rome By ANTONY WOTTON B. D. REVEL 18. 4. Come out of her my people that ye be not Partakers of her sinnes and that ye receiue not of her plagues LONDON Printed by W. J. for Nicholas Bourne and are to be sold at his Shop at the South side of the Royall-Exchange 1624. TO THE RIGHT HONORABLE EDWARD LORD DENNY OF WALTHAM MY ESPECIALL GOOD LORD Right Honorable WHen the great God of heauen and earth proclaimed by his Prophet to Eli 1. Sam. 2. 30 that he would honor them that honour him he therein implied both an example and a charge for all men to do the like Therefore is this actioÌ„ of honouring theÌ„ that honour God one of those whereof the holy Ghost made choise Psal 15. 4. that he might by them giue vs notice of those men which shal abide in the Tabernacle of the Lord and dwell in his holy hill It is my desire to performe this dutie to God by this seruice to your Lordship wherein I feele and confesse that I receiue far more then I can possibly giue For by desiring to honour our Lordship for your zeale in honouring God I encrease mine owne hope that I am of their number who haue obtained already some part of his grace and shall hereafter haue entrance into his glorie Giue me leaue noble Lord to forget in this respect my particular obligation to your Honour for your continuall bountie to me and good opinion of me that I haue an vnfained desire to maintaine the truth of God profest in this famous Church of England against the subtill and dangerous errors of the Romish Synagogue For I truly and willingly professe that the consideration of your Lordships feruent zeale for the glory of God zealous loue of his truth and true detestation of Popery haue so possest and rauisht my heart with a longing after your Honour that it will not suffer any other of your noble vertues though many and great either to come into comparison with it or to haue the least place in my thoughts while it is in presence This in my apprehension is as much to true honour as in Demosthenes opinion pronuntiation was to true eloquence Let them that will dote vpon their worldly greatnesse as the Peacocke is in loue with his owne feathers It is true honour to be honourable in his sight who onely is worthy of honour and yet graciously vouchsafeth to giue and to command that honour be giue to his faithfull seruants This is the foundation of your Lordships honour in my heart and vpon this ground wil I daily offer vp my poore prayers to God for your good Lordship your noble and truly vertuous Lady and hopefull of spring that it would please him to shewer downe euery day more more the comfortable dew of his grace and blessing vpon euery one of you to the increase of all honour in this life and happinesse in the life to come through Jesus Christ our Lord In whom I shall euer be at your Lordships seruice to be commanded Antony Wotton Tower-Hill May 3. 1624. TO THE CHRISTIAN READER THe Councell of Trent confirmed by the Pope is the chiefe Oracle of the Church of Rome from it she receiues all doctrines necessarie to be beleeued vnto saluation Romish Catholikes hold it for a principle that whatsoeuer is deliuered therein for doctrine is an article of faith and must stedfastly be beleeued vpon paine of damnation he that doth not is pronounced an Hereticke and is made lyable to a supposed heauy curse What little reason there is that Papists should yeeld such blind obedience to the Canons of that Councell may appeare by a plaine but true testimonie which was giuen thereunto by a Bishop a member of that Church and Councell who was present thereat This testimonie I haue thought good to prefixe to this my Treatise because in it I dispute against the doctrine of faith deliuered in the said Councell Andraeas Dudithius Bishop of Quinquecclesiae Quinquecclesiae is acitty in Lungarie calleâ— in German â—unsâ—â—rchin in Turkish â—nden or 〈◊〉 and Embassadour in the Councell of Trent for Maximilan the second Emperour in an Epistle to the said Emperour wherein he deliuereth his iudgement about granting the Cup to the Laitie and the marriage of Priests writes thus of the Councell of Trent WHat good could be done in that Councell where voyces were taken by number not by weight If argument if reason might haue preuailed if we had had some and those not many to take part with vs though we should haue bin but a few yet had vve ouerthrowne the greÌ„at forces of our aduersaries but when all stood vpon number wherein we were much inferiour we could not get the better though our cause were the better The Pope was able to set an hundreth of his against euery one of ours and if an hundreth were not sufficient he could vpon a sundaine haue created a thousand to succour them that were readie to faint and perish Therefore we might see euery day hungrie and needie Bishops and these for the most part beardlesse younkers and wastfully ryotous come in flocks to Trent hired to giue their voices according to the Popes humour vnlearned indeed and foolish but of good vse to him for their audaciousnesse and impudencie When these fellowes were ioyued to the Popes old slatterers then iniquitie got the vpper hand and triumphed neither could any thing be decreed but according to their liking who thought it the highest point of religion to defend the power and royot of the Pope There was in the Councell a graue and learned man who could not endure this indignitie but the Councell by terrour threatning and bayting him as one that was no good Catholike drew him to yeeld to that which he did no way like of In a word things are brought to that passe by their dishonesty who came prepared and made for the nonce that it seemed to be a Councell not of Bishops but of puppies not of men but of images who as it is reported of Daedalus Statues were moued not by their owne but by other mens nerues and muscles Those hireling Bishops most of them were like Countrey Bagpipes which must haue breath blowne into them before they can sound The holy Ghost had nothing to doe with that Couenticle all things were argued by human pollicy which was wholly employed in maintaining the immoderate indeed most shamelesse Lordship Domination of the Popet From thence were answers looked and wayted for as it were from the Oracles of Delphos or Dodona from thence the holy Ghost who as they brag is President of their Councell was sent shut vp in the Carriers budgets and packes who a thing worthy to be laught at when the waters were vp as it falls
of Christs sheepe CHAP. V. Of the course that is to be followed in this disputation I Haue shewed that the foundation of the saith of the Church of Rome is the authority and testimony of the church and haue refused that foundation as vnsound and erroneous It will now perhaps be looked for that I should proceed by prouing that it is false and counterfeit But I see no necessary or sufficient reason for this course and therefore haue rather chosen to follow thaâ— way in this disputation which the matter it selfe leads me to and in which it leads me The question betwixt the church of Rome and vs is this Whether the articles or propositions to which they require our assent as to certaine truths reuealed by God and commanded of him to be beleeued vpon perill of damnation if we do not assent and beleeue be reuealed and commanded by God or no as Bellarmine himselfe putteth it in the assumption of his Syllâ—gisme set down by me Chap. 3. num 9. The church of Rome saith they are and call for obedience thereto accordingly We deny that they are reuealed and enioynâ—d by God and therefore refuse to giue assent to them Who seeth not that the very nature of this difference betwixt vs layeth vpon them a necessity of prouing that those points or articles are propounded by God to be beleeued as matters of faith reuealed by him This made the reuerend and learned B. Iewell in his Apology 3 B. Iewell Apol. part 1. chap. 10. diuis 1. tell the Doctors of the Romish church that It was their part to prooue clearly and truly that the Romish Church is the true and right instructed Church of God And in his second answer to Dr. Cole lett D D. E E. to affirme that It was vnreasonable for that Dr to call for the proofes of our doctrine And therefore as it appeares in that answer lett O. he stands vpon the negatiue as he speakes and putteth the Papists to their proofes because they presse vs to receiue those points for articles of faith This course I haue holden in those bookes that I haue formerly published in this kind of writing this I meane to hold now and hereafter if it please God to afford me opportunity to goe forward in the defence of his truth Yet for their better satisfaction and clearer manifesting of the truth I will alwaies giue some reason of my denying the propositions I refuse howsoeuer it were enough for an answer to deny that which of it selfe is not apparantly true And thus much of the course of this disputation I returne now to the disputation it selfe The maine ground for the proofe of the authority of the church in this kind is taken by Bellarmine out of Iohn 21. 15 16 17. Ioh. 21. 15 16. De verbo dei lib. 3. cap. 5. Sect. quartum testimonium seqq Iesus said to Simon Peter Simon the sonne of Ionas louest thou mee more then these He said yea Lord thou knowest that I loue thee He said vnto him Feed my sheepe c. From these words Bellarmine disputeth thus Feeding of Christs sheepe Ioh. 21. 15. is a singular office of teaching the whole Church by determining and iudging what is to bee beleeued of all men To Peter and his successours the feeding of Christs sheepe is committed Ioh. 21. Therefore to Peter and his successors a singular office of teaching the whole Church by iudging and determining what is to be beleeued of all men is committed Vpon this conclusion Bellarmine inferreth that he that will not be thus taught by Peter is none of Christs sheepe Many weighty points are hudled vp together in this Syllogisme worthy of serious consideration and debating In the Proposition or first part these foure things are comprised 1. In those words Ioh. 21. 15. a singular Office is contained 2 Feeding there signifieth teaching 3 Feeding Christs sheepe is teaching the whole Church 4 Teaching the whole church is by way of determining what is to be beleeued of all men All these are contained in the Proposition and euery one of them so necessarily required to the truth thereof that if any one of them bee vntrue the Proposition of necessity must be false How then shall the conclusion be an article of faith as the Papists will haue it I will therfore examine euery one of them seuerally and then goe forward to consider of the Assumption CHAP. 6. Of the two former points of the foure THE first of the foure points to be discussed is this In the words rehearsed Ioh. 21. 15. a singular office is appointed That Bellarmine speakes of a singular Office the words themselues shew that hee must needs bee vnderstood of appointing such an office not of disposing of one already appointed it is manifest as well because there was no office yet ordained but that which was common to Peter with the rest of the Apostles and therefore not singular as also for that it will not serue Bellarmines turne to speake of an office common to all the Apostles since hee endeauors to settle such an office vpon Peter as was proper and peculiar to him and such as no other Apostle euer had This may farther appeare by another place in Bellarmine where he saith that that very thing is really giuen Iohn 21. 15. which was promised Mat 16. 19. I will giue thee the keyes of the Kingdome of heauen and as he there saith giuen to the same Simon to whom Bellar. de Rom. Pont. lib. 1. cap. 14. Sect. Ac primum cap. 12. Sect Et propterea before it was promised hee saith that the keyes were promised Math. 16. 19. and â—eliuered Iohn 21. 15 16 17. Thus haue we the first point in Bellarmines proposition now let vs try the truth of it For our parts we vtterly reiect it as false because wee are out of doubt it cannot any way bee soundly proued And we are the rather so perswaded because Bellarmine hath not once attempted to proue it although hee could not chose but see that there was necessity of prouing it for it is not so plaine and manifest in it selfe that it needs no proofe and the conclusion drawne out of it is an Article of their faith yea such an article as like Atlas beareth the waight of the whole body of their faith Besides Bellarmine knew well enough that we deny it to be true For hee brings Luthers words to that purpose Martin Luther saith Bellarmine in his booke de potestate Papae affirmes that by the word Feed Iohn 21. there is no new power giuen but only the duty of louing Bellar. de Rom. Pont. la. ca. 15. Sect. Iam vero and teaching enioyned Peter who was made an Apostle before Neither doth the text it selfe nor any other place of Scripture for ought they say or we see afford vs any proofe thereof If there bee any thing in the text for their reliefe it is in that Peter is commanded to feed But
this charge doth not so much as imply the appointing of an office because feeding is many times enioyned where there is no singular office ordained but the executing of an office commanded which had before been appointed So the Apostle Peter 1. Peter 5. 2. chargeth th 〈…〉 were already 1 Pet. 5. 2. Ministers to feed the flicke of God And the Apostle Paul Acts 20. 28. giues the like charge to the Elders or Ministers of Act. 10. 28. Ephesus Take heed to your selues and to all the flocke to feed the Church of God And this Dr. Reynolds well obserued Dr. Reynolds against â—art Chap. 3. diuis 2. and vrged against Hart You say true wee might therefore with good reason refuse this proposition till it be proued But I will deale more kindly with Bellarmine and shew that Luther truely affirmed there was no new office erected by those words but the execution of one formerly appointed enioyned If this feeding be the teaching for which all the Apostles had commission Mark 16 15. Goe ye into all the world and Mark 16. 15. preach the Gospell to euery creature Iohn 20. 23. Whose sinnes soeuer ye remit they are remitted to them then is it not the erecting of a new office for this was at our Sauiours third appearing to his Disciples Iohn 20. 13. that at his first Ioh. 20. Ioh. 20. 19. Bellarm. de pont Rom. lib. 1. cap. 12. Sect. Dices c. 19. 20. when as Bellarmine affirmeth they had power giuen them both of iudisdiction to gouerne and of order to execute their sacrificing Priesthood And it had beene a thing not beseeming our Sauiours wisdome to giue a new Commission when there was no need nor occasion of so doing Yea to say the truth it had beene altogether in vaine because the former being as sufficient and in force there could be no place for this later But this feeding Ioh. 21. 15. is the teaching for which they had commission Mark. 16. 15. Ioh. 20. 23. For wee finde no other kinde of feeding but this one practised by the Apostles in the new Testament namely feeding by way of reuealing This appeareth touching the Scriptures Bellarm. de Coâ—cil authorit lib 2. cap. 12. Sect. Obseruandum c. and Sect. Diâ—untur Counc Trent Sess 4 decretde Canon scripturatum 2. Tim. 4. 15. The Scriptures were giuen by inspiration 2. Pet. 1. 21. Holy men of God spake as they were moued by the holy Ghost as Bellarmine also confesseth The Scripture is the word of God immediatly reuealed The holy writers had immediate reuelation and writ the words of God As for traditions which the church of Rome makes a second part of the diuine testimony or word of God by their owne confession they are also by reuelation for so saith the Councell of Trent Traditions were either receiued by the Apostles from the mouth of our Sauiour or deliuered by themselues the holy Ghost enditing them Indeed this feeding Ioh. 21. 15. is nothing else but an exhortation or charge for the performance of that duty which was enioyned in that Commission Mark 16. 15. That it was such an exhortation the manner of deliuering the words sheweth which is by repeating the same thing three seuerall times For this course is very fit to make an impression of a duty commanded no way beseeming the giuing of a Commission Besides it answereth to Peters denying of his Master thrice as Cyril noteth in Ioh. Because Cyril supra Ioh. lib. 12. cap. 64. he denied him thrice at his passion therefore there is a threefold confession of loue required of him A threefold confession saith S. Austin answereth to a threefold negation that the tongue may Aug. Tract in Ioh. 123. expresse as much loue as it did feare Adde hereunto that our Lord calls for the performance of this duty as a proofe of Peters loue to him wherein hee had failed more then the rest because he had made more protestation of it then the rest For thus lies the reason If thou loue me as thou hast professed thou doest shew thy loue by the performing of the duty of feeding But what proofe had it beene of Peters loue to our Sauiour to become the visible Monarch of the whole Church Well might the giuing of such an office argue our Sauiours loue to Peter but the taking it vpon him could not testifie any great loue of his to our Sauiour For who would haue refused such an offer The burthen of teaching was laid vpon the other Apostles as well as vpon him the honour of the Supremacy if this were true was appropriated to him yea the rest of the Apostles who before were equall to him were now made inferiour and subiect to him Lastly in giuing a commission the authority of him that giues is ordinarily expressed alwaies implyed Mat. 28. 18 19. All power is giuen to me in heauen and earth Goe therefore and teach all nations Ioh. 20. 21 22 23. As my father sent me so send I you receiue the holy Ghost whose sins c. But here although as they say it is the onely place that speaks of this commission there is no authority either expressed or implyed onely as Cyrill saith It was a duty of loue to feed as it had beene formerly a proofe of feare to deny What else then can this Feeding be but the teaching which was enioyned all the Apostles at our Sauiours first appearing to them Whereupon I may safely conclude that the word neither necessarily nor in any likelihood of reason importeth the erection of any new office in the Church Let vs now proceed to debate the second point yet with this memorandum that although it be neuer so plainly proued yet Bellarmines proposition of a new office appointed Ioh. 21. 15. is false because the first point contained in it of a singular office here ordained is neither true nor likely The thing now to be discussed is this Feeding Christs sheepe Ioh. 21. 15. is teaching This sentence is plainly deliuered by Bellarmine in that proposition as he that looks vpon it cannot choose but see and proued also by two reasons the former that Reasonable sheepe are fed by teaching the latter that The Lord saith by Ieremy I will giue you Pastors according to my heart which Ier. 3. 15. shall feed you with knowledge and vnderstanding But these proofes might haue been spared for we acknowledge that Feeding is Teaching But for the fuller discussing of this matter wee must remember that Bellarmine as we saw chap. 4. numb 9. telleth vs Teaching is double by reuealing or propounding things reuealed Wee say that the teaching here spoken of is by reuelation not by propounding matters already reuealed as they would haue it But if they will haue vs yeeld to it they must proue it and not take it for granted as Bellarmine doth For without it be proued as I signified chap. 6. numb 6. his proposition cannot be true It is therfore
mind if he doe but looke vpon them both together in one proposition If those words feed my sheepe were spoken to Peter onely then the feeding is commited to Peter onely as if it were all one To require or exhort Peter to feed and To commit the feeding to Peter onely Put case a man that hath many seruants to goe about a peece of worke reaping or the like should say to some one of them whom he might suspect of idlenesse Looke that you reape cleane and faire Will any wise man conclude hereupon that by these words hee giueth him an office to ouer-see and iudge of his other fellowes worke or maketh him the onely worke-man And yet it cannot be denyed that he speaketh to him onely But it will peraduenture bee replyed in defence of the consequence of the forme proposition that if Christ required Peter onely to feed and did not commit that feeding onely to him then there was no end or reason of his speaking to him onely but it were absurd yea blasphemous to say of our Sauiour that there was no end or reason of his speech It were certainely blasphemous for any man to say of the Lord Iesus that any action or speech of his was without reason or not to good purpose But it were also a bold and blind presumption for any man to affirme that there is no reason or end of our Sauiours speech at all because there is none knowne to men What if I know not the end or reason of it may I conclude that therefore there is none So then if wee should grant that there can no reason bee giuen by vs of our Sauiours speech vnlesse thereby such an office bee bestowed vpon Peter yet it might well bee there was some reason thereof though vnknowne to vs. But we can assigne good reason of that speech that is we can shew that there was good reason why our Sauiour Christ should direct his speech in that sort to Peter onely though he meant not to place him in any office thereby First therefore wee say that our Lord speake to Peter thus particularly that hee might giue him occasion to make profession of his loue to him which hee had brought into question by denying his Master with swearing and cursing And because there was no meanes more effectuall to proue the continuance or renuing of Peter loue to our Sauiour then the feeding of his sheepe therefore our Sauiour presseth him with this duty aboue the rest because there was more need to haue his loue shewed then the others who had not made their loue to him so doubtfull Let me adde to these two a third that it was needfull for Peter himselfe that the execution of the commission formerly giuen should bee viged on Peter because it might seeme that by so soule a fall hee had wholly beene put out of commission which doubt is fully remoued by our Sauiours charging him to goe forward in the execution thereof We shall not need then to make any such construction of the Lord Iesus words as if hee had intended by them to seale a commission to Peter for an office to bee newly erected for feare it should be suspected that those words were to no purpose or without reason Nay rather most vnreasonable is that consequence that would haue those things inferre each other betwixt which there is no kinde of agreâ—ment CHAP. IX Of Peters successours NOw in the next place the third proposition offereth it selfe to be considered although it bee but implyed not expressed that Peter hath his successours which is manifestly implyed For he that saith The office is committed to Peters successors supposeth that Peter hath successors This sentence is thus to be vnderstood Peter onely hath his successors so as none of the other Apostles haue For so Bellarmine expoundeth himselfe De Rom. Pont. l. 1. c. 9. Sect. Respondeo Pontificatum The chiefe ecclesiasticall power was giuen to Peter as to the ordinary pastour who was alwaies to haue successors to the other Apostles as to the delegates who were not to haue successors And he saith that The Bishop of Româ— succedeth Peter properly L. 4. c. 25. Sect. Respondeo magnum as the ordinary pastour of the whole Church but the Apostles were extraordinary and as it were delegated pastors and such haue no successors That Peter hath successors in the ministery of the Gospell wee confesse and professe but wee adde that this is common to him with the rest of the Apostles For the farther explication whereof wee say that to succeed the Apostles is either to succeed them properly as one King succeedeth another or in similitude or proportion as Bellarmine truely saith Wee grant that all the Apostles haue De Rom Pon. l. c. 15. Sect. Dicunâ—ur successors in a proportion namely such as preach the Gospell as they did though not by reuelation and that also haue power of ordination and iurisdiction fit for the good gouernment of the Church But we say none of the Apostles haue any successors of the second kind Therefore Bellarmine might haue saued his labor in prouing that the Apostles De Rom. Pont. l 4 c. 25. Sect. sta vero haue no such successors Let vs see how he proueth that which we deny that Peter hath successors properly This hee propoundeth in these tearmes Some must succeed Peter in the Bishopricke of the whole De Rom. Pont. l. 2. c. 12. Sect. Primum ergo Church Which he doth more plainly declare where he saith that the Bishop of Rome succeeds Peter properly not as an Apostle lib. 4 c. 25. Sect. Respondâ—â— magnum but as an ordinary Pastor ouer the whole Church This we vtterly deny that Peter was to haue any such successor in the Bishopricke of the whole Church Our reason is that Peter himselfe had no such office But let vs see how Bellarmine would proue that he had such successors Bellarmines proofe of this point is set downe and is thus De Rom. Pont. l. 2. c. 12. Sect. Nos ergo â—tramque to be framed Either Peter hath successors in Episcopall office ouer the whole Church or that office perished at Peters death But that office perished not at Peters death for that office was ordained for the good of the Church and the Church hath had and shall alwaies haue no lesse need of it then it had while Peter liued Therefore Peter hath successors in the Episcopall office ouer the whole Church Who seeth not that in this argument Bellar. taketh that for granted which he should proue namely that Peter had such an office while he liued For he was not ignorant that all Protestants deny it What is this else according to Aristotles Topicorum l. 8. cap. 13. Philosophy but to beg the question He saith Aristotle that takes that as granted which he ought to proue manifestly beggeth the question As for the proofes hee hath formerly brought touching this office of Peter I haue