the Communion Table Now if all that I have said implies no more I yield the Cause Phil. b Lib. 2. de Idol c. 1. Idololatriae genuina Ratio est Creaturae c. Gregory de Valentia seems to reconcile all the difference with this Distinction Formal Idolatry is to give Divine Honor to a Creature as to God If therefore I give Divine Honor to the Saints or their Images as Creatures not as God I am not guilty of Idolatry Theoph. He was driven to this shift to justifie the practice of your Church and free it from Idolatry but it will not serve for Divine Worship is due only to God and therefore should not be communicated to a Creature upon any account Phil. You will have the last word and I yield to you because the Night comes on and I suppose both of us are sufficiently tired with the length of this Controversie and you are almost fallen upon another Controversie of the Honor and Adoration of Saints which will require another season to determin it Theoph. The honor of Saints and of their Images having near affinity have bin some time taken into consideration together but my chief design was against Image worship as giving great occasion of Idolatry and Scandal in the Church And what I have said I leave to your serious consideration giving you many thanks for this opportunity and freedom of Discourse and for my noble Entertainmentall this time I have been your studious Opponent There are many differences between our Church and yours remaining whereupon when our occasions shall allow us other Meetings if you are willing we will treat with Gods Blessing in Charity and Love THE FOURTH CONFERENCE OF THE Invocation of SAINTS Phil. DEar Sir Since our last Meeting I have been tumultuous in my thoughts and dis-satisfied with my self That I could not give such full satisfaction to your Arguments as I at first suppos'd However I have learn'd of the Apostle Tit. 1. 9. To hold fast the faithful word as I have been taught and not permit the Truth to be wrested from me by subtle and perhaps sophistical Objections I may go to Heaven in the plain way wherein Christ and his Holy Church doth lead me without perplexing my self with emergent Difficulties and Controversies reserving them to be resolv'd until Elias as the Jews speak or rather until our Blessed Savior shall come again Theoph. It seems you are resolv'd to hold to the Conclusion strongly be the Premises never so infirm and hereunto no doubt your Doctors and your Priests advise you To yield an Implicit Faith to the Decrees of your Church and not dispute them But upon the same Motive you should always have subscrib'd and kept stedfast unto the Articles of our Church which was likewise yours and not have forsaken her Communion for Scruples and Imaginations of your own and false Suggestions of others I mean Those creeping Emissaries of Rome who swarm among us and buz into Mens Ears uncertain sounds to unsettle their minds and take them off from sound Principles and then infuse their bewitching Sorceries and Delusions making them drunk with the Cup of Fornications and then forsooth their besotted Reason must be charm'd against all attemts to awaken and to recover them If Reason and Argumentation could induce you to leave our Church whilist you gave an easie belief unto our Adversaries give us leave by the same method to undeceive and to reduce you and do not brutishly resolve to hold fast those pretended Truths which you cannot defend against our Oppositions Phil. Your Church allowing her Disciples a liberty of judging I suitably made use of her Indulgence but being now converted to the Church of Rome I am taught the obedience of an Implicit Faith and not encourag'd to dispute her Articles Theoph. A rare Artifice and Policy to keep Men hood-wink'd and in Error by forbidding them to open their Eies and make use of their Reason and Judgment to discover the Truth Our Church may easily impose the like Credulity upon her Children but she dares not use Stratagems against the Truths of God to do evil upon pretensions of good to keep her Sons and Daughters in ignorance that they may be obedient The Holy Scriptures enjoin a search and examination and trial Prove all things saith St. Paul and hold fast that which is good 1 Thess 5. 21. But you would have Men tenacious of their Opinions without Judgment hold to the Point without the proof S t Peter exhorts the Saints 1 Pet. 3. 15. alwaies to be ready to give an answer unto every one that asketh them a reason of the hope that is in them but you are against this rendring of Reasons the Autority of your Church must suffice Phil Not so neither The Church commands and gives sufficient proof for her prescriptions and we submit to her account Theoph. Do you take the liberty for your own satisfaction to examine and judge of the account Phil. Yes doubtless the more to convince and settle us upon that good foundation Theoph. But suppose upon the search and enquiry you do not find satisfaction to your reason Suppose your Heart and Conscience may suggest Exceptions against the Doctrine and the practice of your Church what then Phil. We may have recourse unto our Priests and Doctors for solution of doubts Theoph. Taking the Holy Oracles of Scripture along with you that is not amiss but withal you should do well to consider That they will surely resolve the Question on their own side and your Church gives no liberty to hear the adverse Party and so Truths are not weigh'd in an equal ballance and differences are determin'd only one side being heard Phil. Good Theophilus trouble not your self with the non-permissions of our Church it will appear at present you have no cause to complain for I am purposely come to requite your former visit and to continue the debate in a Friendly manner concerning some other Points wherein we differ and whereas the last time you made choice of such Particulars to insist on which you thought most liable unto popular Exception you shall give me leave now to propose the subject of our Discourse Theoph. Sir besides the equity of your Demand the rule of Hospitality requires That in my own House I should design to observe you and therefore be pleas'd to make your Friendly Challenge and appoint the Field and Weapons and I will answer you Phil. Upon this fair Concession I will try your skill in one great Point concerning the Invocation of Saints and because you shall not complain of a surprizal I will principally urge Eellarmins proofs in whose Works you appear'd the last time to be so conversant Theoph. Our Church piously with-holding none of our Adversaries Writings from us that upon due Examination we may judg of Truth I have I must confess propos'd chiefly to my self the perusal of that great Cardinals Defence because I was assur'd of his great Abilities and of
They were sheep and must be fed but they were not brute Beasts but a rational Flock e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and might so learn as in due time even to instruct their neighbors And so I hope this holy Father hath fully answered you Phil. f Lib. 2. de verb. Dei c. 16. Chrysost amplificat in concionibus utebatur Bellarmine and others observe Chrysostom to have bin a great Orator and to use Hyperbolies and Amplifications according to the occasion and he gives an instance pertinent to your purpose out of another place where he saith g It is impossible any one should obtain salvation unless he be alwaies conversant in reading Spiritual Books which you know cannot be true in a strict sense for many that cannot read may be saved Th. The Father speaks of Men that can read and by their neglect exclude themselves from a possibility of Salvation and that others who cannot read might be diligent to hear others reading the Scripture in the Church and in their Families And if this be your way to answer the Fathers when they fully declare against you to say They speak not Doctrinally but like Orators by way of Amplification you must needs carry all before you Put you will find in the Homily upon Lazarus how Chrysostom makes it his great business to exhort all his Congregation in the Preface to study the Scripture This saith he I Preach in public and this I exhort in private and will never desist from so doing b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. That not only in the Church but also in your houses ye should diligently read the Scripture c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And I hate saith he that frigid answer and worthy all condemnation That because ye have Trades and worldly Business and Wife and Children therefore ye cannot be so well vers'd in the Scripture And that in your Opinion I should rather give this charge to study the Scripture unto Men separate from the World unto Monks and Hermits and the Clergy What saiest thou man as the Father goes on Is it not thy business to attend unto the Scripture because thou art incumbred with myriads of worldly affairs I tell thee for this very reason thou shouldst apply thy self to the Scripture more then such who are free from cares for amidst thy multiplicity of business thou dost want the help and conduct of the Scripture more then they who are secluded from the world Thy Wife may vex thee thy Children grieve thee thy Servant anger thee thy Friend envy thee thy Enemy beset thee with snares the Judge oppress thee thy Neighbor curse thee and against all these and other assaults how necessary will be the Panoply of the Scripture the only Physic against all the maladies of the World After all this judge whether Bellarmines shift will serve his turn touching Chrysostom ' s Oratory and Amplifications No it was the good Fathers business and principal part of Doctrine in many Homilies to recommend the study of the Scripture unto his Congregation Phil. But you may read another answer Bellarmine gives to these vehement Exhortations of Chrysostom d Quoniam dediti erant homines tâ—â—atris spect aliisque 〈◊〉 script divinas nunquam legebant Because the People of that great City Constantinople were much given to Plaies and Sights and other trisling Divertisements and such as were sit and able did not look into the Bible therefore he was so solicitous to quicken them a Hom. 3. in Lazarum Tom. 5. c. Theoph. Doth not the same Cause ever inforce the same Exhortation Are not Men too much addicted to the Vanities and Lusts and Cares of the World and therefore need these sacred Divertisements But by these whiffling Answers you may perceive how your great Bellarmin is a Trifler and so are all his Seconds who have the confidence without shew of reason to shift off Arguments and Texts of Scripture which are as clear as the Sun against them But such weak Answers fortifie our Objections and do in truth manifest They are so convincing that Men must be frivolous or silent in their Solutions Phil. I ascribe this Triumph before the Victory and this insulting over your Adversaries unto the partiality of your Judgment in your own cause Theoph. To decline this Imputation I shall choose to submit all to the impartial Reader and pass from the testimony of Holy Scripture unto the testimony of the Holy Fathers of the Church who exhort all Christians to the search and study of the Scripture And altho we meet with great variety of Testimonies collected by learned Protestants out of the ancient Fathers yet for brevity sake I will produce only such as I have had the opportunity to read my self and if occasion serves will hereafter be ready to produce the rest a Lib. de spectaculis ad finem Script sacris incumbat Christianus fidelis ibi inveniet condigna fidei spectacula Cyprian willing to withdraw Christians from the Roman Theaters and Sports having condemn'd them for their Idolatry and Impurities he directs Christians to the contemplation of Gods Works in the excellent frame and beauty and order of the Creation and more especially to read the Scripture Let the Believing Christian saith he make the holy Scripture his study where he shall find excellent discoveries agreeable to his pretious Faith Phil. This Testimony of Cyprian justifies Bellarmins former Answer That because the People were much given to frequent the Theaters and Scenes full of obscenity and vice therefore for that season Chrysostom did divert them by a better imploiment exhorting them to study the Scripture But this proves not that they should be alwaies read by the common people but only upon such special Considerations Theoph. When such Motives and Considerations are wanting let Men and Women lay aside their Bibles but as long as we live in a wicked World there will be alwaies need of the light and conduct of Gods Holy Word to lead us out of the works of Darkness and way of Unrighteousness But I pray hear others b Homil 9. in Levit. Oplamus ut operam detis non selum in Ecclesia c. Origen tells his hearers We do heartily wish that ye would labor not only in the Church to hear Gods word but also in your houses to be exercised in his Law day and night And he proceeds In vain do ye complain that the flesh is weak while ye neglect to nurish and fortifie the spirit by reading the Holy Scripture and by Praier and hearing the instruction of the Word And elsewhere as you have heard before he passionatly wisheth a Homil. 2. in Isaia Would God we all would follow that which is written Search the Scriptures b Lib. 12. de praepar Evang. Eusebius Caesariensis assigns the reading of the Holy Scriptures both unto Babes in Christ and unto strong Men with this difference The first sort must simply
devices of the evil Spirit and obtain the kingdom of Heaven Again speaking of the Holy Scriptures he tells them b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. They are spiritual food the nerves and sinews of Ratiocination making the soul vigorous and in tune and more Philosophical not suffering her to be carried away with brutish passions giving her a swift wing and translating her as I may so speak into Heaven Wherefore I beseech you let us not deprive our selves of such advantages but in our own houses let us give all diligence in reading the Holy Scripture In his Tom. 2. c Hom. 29. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. He upbraids them of not minding the Scripture And who is there saith he of this great Congregation that being requir'd can say one of Davids Psalms or any other part of Scripture d Hom. 2. in Matt. ad finem And what do ye plead for your excuse I an no Monk I have a Wife and Children and the care of a Family c. Phil. He justly reproves such who out of supine negligence had learn'd none of Davids Psalms or other parts of the Scriptures but our Church recommends the Penitential Psalms and many others to be learn'd by heart Theoph. That which follows expresly mentions reading the Bible e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. This mars all saith â—e that ye think it belongs only to Monks to read the Word of God when as ye want the comfort of the Scripture more then they such as are conversant in secular affairs and every day receive wounds do most stand in need of Physic And he goes on to tell them f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. That if there be a sin greater then the neglect of reading Gods Word it is this To be perswaded we need not read the Scripture This is the studied suggestion of the devil whereas Paul tells us These things were written for our instruction 1 Cor. 10. 11. I must needs declare to you Philodoxus It makes my heart even to bleed to think how such saâ—anical suggestions as Chrysostom justly call'd them should now become the avowed Doctrine of a Christian Church if I may in Charity be allow'd to call her so Phil. Your Zeal Theophilus transports you beyond all reason g 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Theoph. I would to God I had no reason for this Zeal and Indignation but I have much more to produce out of this Father In another Homily he gives advice that a Hom. 5. Matth. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. They should not immediatly fall upon worldly business after a Sermon but call their Wives and Children together and take the Bible and make them partake of those things he had heard Phil. This we approve well that such as come to Church should heed what is taught them and carry it with them and in their Families repeat and instruct those that were absent Theoph. But there is somthing more then you allow b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. That they should have Bibles in their Houses and take and read to their Wives and Children at home the Text and Proofs c. Again in the same Tome c Hom. 32. in Johan ad finem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. from the example of the Woman of Samaria enquiring of our Blessed Savior about the true Worship of God c. he condemns his hearers of negligence and indifferency in matters of Religion And then he proposeth the Question Which of you being in his house will take into his band the Book of Christianity d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and search what is contain'd therein You shall find Dice in every House but the Bible in few and such as have the Scriptures are as tho they had them not They clasp them up and lock them in their Chests and are solicitous for the finest Paper and the fairest Letter but not to read them They boast they have the Bible in Golden Letters and know nothing of the Contents But the Scriptures were not given that we should have them in our Books but engraven in our hearts I speak not this saith he forbidding you to have Bibles e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I exhort and earnestly beg you would procure them but I desire also the sense and words of Holy Scripture should be carried in your minds And if the Devil dares not enter into an house where there is a Bible much less will he draw near to a soul that is fraught with Sentences of Scripture neither sin nor the evil Spirit will attemt a mind so well furnish'd f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Sanctifie therefore thy Mind and sanctifie thy Body having the Holy Scripture alwaies in thy Heart and in thy Mouth In his third Tome g 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. in his Preface to the Epistle to the Romans he grieves his hearers were not better acquainted with Paul and his Epistles and tells them If they would with alacrity give themselves to reading the Scripture they should want no other thing or if I mistake him not no other Interpreter For the promise of Christ shall never fail seek and ye shall find knock and it shall be opened unto you Soon after he tells them h 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. From hence dospring up myriads of evils even from the ignorance of the Scripture from hence pernicious Heresies neglected lives and labor in vain For as they who are destitute of the light cannot make strait paths so such as do not take along with them the light of Gods Word in many things necessarily do off end and stumble as walking in utter darkness But more then all this we may read in his fifth Tome in the third Homily upon Lazarus and I have already instanc'd in several passages of that Sermon where he also tells us That as Work-men cannot be without their Tools so neither a Christian without the Holy Scripture And he concludes the Preface of that Homily wherein all these passages are to be found with this asseveration a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. It is impossible I say it is impossible that any one who gives himself up to read the Holy Scripture with due observation should lose his labor And now after such full and frequent Exhortations of the Holy Scripture and of the Holy Fathers made unto all sorts and conditions of Men to search and hear and read the Scriptures and to be conversant in them Would you think it possible a new Generation of Doctors should arise and discourage and forbid the People to study the Scriptures urging Arguments to shew the great and many Inconveniencies of so doing as much as they can restraining the Translations of the Bible into the vulgar Tongue of every Country Phil. What the sad experience of later Times had taught them they have reason to declare and to suit their
half Communion IN THE CHURCH of ROME Theoph. SIR I am much obliged to you for your kind and civil Entertainment and much more for that freedom of Discourse which your great Moderation hath allow'd me when somtimes in the defence of Truth and through a flaming Zeal that you should recover it I have neglected the Ceremonies of Friendship to hold the substance I have not sought so much to please as to convince you Phil. Truth is a Jewel which all are concern'd to purchase and hold fast but where this Tresure is to be found is the great Question I have bin diligent in the search and the Providence of God as I believe hath not been wanting in conducting me unto the Catholic Church the great Repository of Divine Truths Theoph. Doubtless the Holy Catholic Church is so the Truth it self hath promis'd to be with her unto the end of the World The Catholic Church will alwaies hold the Catholic Faith and by this Rule we judg particular National Churches to be true Members of the Church Catholic as they hold the Catholic Faith Phil. I mean the Roman Catholic Church whose Faith as Peters cannot fail and which hath alwaies laid a just claim to be the Catholic Church wherein the Truths of God and Eternal Life are conserv'd as her peculiar Tresure and none who do not communicate with her can share in them Theoph. That which you call a just claim will in its due place appear a most intolerable Usurpation and such as make the Catholic Church and the Roman Church to be reciprocal terms of the same amplitude and extent have forfeited their Logic and their Reason together The Church of Rome at best was a part and Member of the Church Catholic and now since thro her manifold Corruptions she hath well-nigh forfeited that Interest lo with an unparallel'd Insolence she flies at all and prescribes to the name of Catholic more solicitously perhaps out of a jealousie the Catholic Church should totally exclude her and out of a consciousness she hath deserv'd it But this digression would usher in a large Controversie besides our present purpose and I design first to insist upon the manifold Errors of your Church one after another as our occasions will permit and then if you please we will dispute the Point Whether the Church of Rome can be the only true Catholic Church which has so many ways departed from the Catholic Doctrine Phil. Your confidence Theophilus is no proof Theoph. I hope it shall appear to you and to the World that my Reasons and my Proofs have made me confident You may remember a second obvious Exception which I propos'd against the practice of the Church of Rome was her half Communion in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper Her denying the Cup unto the Laiety If you please we will now take it into Consideration Phil. Most willingly For I find a great noise and clamor is rais'd about it and the Grand Sacrilege of the Church of Rome is proclaim'd out of the Pulpit and the Press and from some appearances of Truth your severe Imputations and Calumnies pass for currant with the undiscerning multitude Theoph. These appearances of Truth as you are pleas'd to call them are no less then Demonstrations carrying so much Light and Evidence in them that even the undiscerning multitude in reading the Holy Scriptures are able at first sight to discover the incongruity of your Practice with the Rule how teaching for Doctrines the commandments of men you evidently transgress the commands of God Phil. This Artifice of yours and Industry to court the People into a prejudice against us is to me a Demonstration that you put no great confidence in the merits of your Cause Do not so peremtorily conclude before you have enter'd upon the Proof Theoph. I will prove your giving the Bread in the Holy Communion and not the Cup unto the People to be against the Institution of Christ the end of the Sacrament the practice of the Apostles and of the Church Catholic for twelve-hundred Years Phil. You have propos'd a good Method of Discourse and I desire you would follow it Theoph. First our Blessed Savior immediatly before his Passion instituted the Sacrament and gave it to the Disciples present in both kinds as three Evangelists record Matth. 26. 26. As they were eating Jesus took Bread and blessed it and brake it and gave it to the Disciples and said Take eat this is my Body ver 27. He took the Cup and gave thanks and gave it to them saying Drink ye all of it for this is my Blood of the New Testament which is shed for many for remission of sins So we read in Mark 14. 22 23. and he expresly testifieth of the Cup That he gave it to them and they all drank of it Saint Luke after the same manner And adds moreover the command of Christ This do in remembrance of me Luke 22. 19. Phil. I pray observe how that command is given only when the Disciples receiv'd the Bread and not when they took the Cup. The Words are these He took Bread and gave thanks and brake it and gave unto them saying This is my Body which is given for you this do in remembrance of me Likewise also the Cup after Supper saying This Cup is the New Test ament in my Blood which is shed for you ver 20. And a Tom. 3. Lib. 4. cap. 25. de Sacramento Eucharistâ— ut intelligeremus c. Bellarmin observes it as an instance of Gods wonderful Providence to make Heretics unexcusable And that we may understand it was the command of Christ that the Sacrament should be distributed to all under the species of Bread but not so under the species of Wine Theoph. S t Luke saith Likewise also the Cup Intimating the same Institution for one and for the other Phil. We are not much concern'd in your gloss upon the Text. Theoph. But you are in S t Pauls who declares That after the same manner he took the Cup when he had supped saying This Cup is the New Testament in my Blood 1 Cor. 11. 25. the very Words of S t Luke And then expresly adds the words of command of our Lord Christ This do as oft as ye drink it in remembrance of me Now what say you to the word of command given by Christ to do this in remembrance of him as well when he gave the Cup as when he distributed the Bread unto the Disciplos Phil. Bellarmin observes a difference b Ibid. Post panis consecrationem absolute penitur post calicem cum conditione This do in remembrance of me is put absolutely even in S t Pauls relation after the Consecration of the Bread but after the Cup it is repeated with a Condition â—his do as often as you drink it in remembrance of one not intimating that the Cup must of necessity be given or taken but if it be given or receiv'd it should be done in
Man and his redemtion by Christ and other Mysteries which were made known unto them saith the Apostle in the Churches by the Ministery of the Gospel See Estius in 4. Sent. dist 46. Paragr 19. p. 294. And so while your Doctors without any warrant of Scripture generally lay this for a Foundation That the Saints in Heaven do know our state and bear our Praiers when they come to the proof and confirmation every one abounds in his own sense and they easily confute one anothers Reasons and Opinions and manifest unto their Readers upon due consideration that they are full of uncertainties in the Point which they take for granted and can urge only fallible Arguments to confirm that which they would have receiv'd by all Men as a mesur'd Truth but we have not learn'd to subscribe to Mens Dictates And you acknowledg your Doctor makes not proof of his Assertion which is a great defect this being the main Hinge whereupon the Controversie turns We conclude therefore there is no reason we should call upon the Saints when they do not hear us as a Child doth not ask his Fathers Blessing when he is out of hearing Now you assert with Bellarmin That the Saints in Heaven out of doubt do hear us but you know not how It is probable say you that in the Face of God they see and know all things that concern them but give no reason of that probability and is it fit that a Doctrine of your Church which takes up in that part the Devotion of all Gods People should be grounded only upon such a probability whereof you can give no reason How can I call upon the Saints with Faith and Comfort when I have no assurance that they can hear me I may with as much reason daily beg the Praiers of pious Friends who live far from me and say It is probable God will revele to them that I desire the assistance of their Praiers Phil. Your Instance runs not parallel Our condition here is a state of ignorance their 's a state of comprehension They can see the Face of God and live for ever they certainly know all things which tend to their consummation in Bliss for they are arriv'd at the state of Perfection and perfect Knowledge is the foundation of their Happiness Theoph. The perfect knowledg of God is so Here we know in part saith the Apostle 1 Cor. 13. ver 12. but there we shall know as we are known i. e. fully perfectly and this knowledg and Vision of God is Beatifical But how doth this prove their knowledg of the necessities and Praiers of us poor Mortals here on Earth whom they have leâ—t behind them in the vale of Misery we may rather suppose the wisdom of God hath excluded them from the knowledg of their Friends and Relations and of miserable Man here beneath least it should prove a diminution of their Joy and Bliss Your Angelical Doctor holds o Aqu. part 1. qu. 12. Art 8. ad 4. Cognoscere singularia cogitata aut facta c. non est de perfect It belongs not unto the perfection of a created Intellect to know particulars the thoughts or actions of Men. If God only be seen it sufficeth to make men happy As S t Augustin â— He is happy who knoweth Thee altho he have nothing else In a word Cardinals Cajetane was a Learned Advocate of your Church and had studied the Point in hand much and he concludes at last That we have no assurance that the Saints know when we pray to them altho we piously believe it Phil. I well perceive you have a Spirit of contradiction and please your self much in eluding such Arguments which our Doctors urge from Scripture and reason to prove the Doctrine of our Church touching the Invocation of Saints I will therefore take a more convincing way unto such refractory persons and plainly shew by matter of Fact and express Testimony of the Antients That this Doctrine hath bin receiv'd in the Church Catholic from the beginning Theoph. I presume you mean not from the beginning of Christianity you have heard how the attemt of your Doctors to prove it out of Gods Word hath been altogether unsuccessful and some of your Doctors have confes'd that it is delivered in Holy Scripture very obscurely and others have shew'd the reason even the humility and modesty of the Apostles which with-held them from publishing this Doctrine least they should appear to make themselves as Gods after their decease by requiring the People of God to make their Praiers and Supplications to them Seeing therefore your Doctrine is not sounded in the Holy Scripture I could give a short Answer unto your pretended usage of the Church and Testimony of the Ancient That which S t Augustin gave to Cresconius urging the Autority of Cyprian r I am not bound to the Autority of this Epistle for I do not hold the Writings of Cyprian as Canonical but judg of them by the Canonical Scripture and whatsoever is consonant to the Holy Scripture I receive with praise what agrees not with his leave 〈…〉 eject If you could prove what you have urg'd out of the Canonical Books of the Apostles and Prophets I would not contradict but seeing what you haue is not Canonical with that liberty whereunto God hath called us I do not receive his Testimony whose due Praise I can never equal with whose Writings I dare not compare mine own whose Learning I embrace whose 〈…〉 y I admire whose Martyrdom is venerable Again S t Augustin to the same effect elsewhere It is not sufficient unto the Autority of Faith and of the Dostrines of the Church to say Thus Esay or thou faist or he saith 〈◊〉 Thus saith the Lord. So the Blessed Martyr Gyprian himself We must not been what any one hath done before us but what He who is before all Ages hath taught or communded to be don Once more I could answer you out of Gratian t A Custom without the Word of God to back it is not â— B 〈…〉 quâ— T 〈…〉 scit etiamsi alia n 〈…〉 t. 〈…〉 sec 〈…〉 secundie â—hem qn 88. Art 5. Certaratione nescimus an Sancti vota 〈…〉 se 〈…〉 2. contr Cresconium c. 32. Ego hujus Epistolae c. 〈…〉 do sine verbo Lei non esse veritatem sed vetustatem erroris Truth but the Antiquity of Error The Council of Cartbage resolved thus â— The Lord said in the Gospel I am Truth He said not I am Castom Phil. Can you so easily trample upon the Autority of the Fathers You have formerly pretended much honor to the venerable Testimony of Antiquity where you conceiv'd it consonant unto your Principles and now you would decline that Touch-stone because you know full well it is against you in this Point of the Invocation of Saints Theoph. These Sentences I have produc'd are of the Fathers and seeing the Word of God doth not establish your Doctrine