doth he proue it so to be held by vs If malice had not possessed him this error had never ben imputed to vs eyther as held by the Church or partaken in by the Elders Sometimes in deed we haue had speach among vs of the vnlawfulnes as we were perswaded for man and wife to live together after adultery coÌ„mitted about the band of wedlock being broken thereby whether that in the case of adultery vnknowen to others the offenders were to reveale themselves or not About which latter points when we shewed our judgment reasons this Tho. White who then was present did much vrge that a man who knew such a crime by himself must reveale it or els live in sinne with one that was not his lawfull wife Wherevpon some of vs reasoned with him about it holding that a man should not so reveale himself The end was that we differed in judgemâ—nt about these things having had speach of them but by occasion so rested for the present Will he now therefore make collections and frame positions of his owne or others speâ—châ—s and say as in his letter that they are false doctrines that ly vpon the Church or as here in his Libell that they are blasphemous doctrines of the Church What good dealing this is let the Reader judge And concerning the question aforesaid whereas some of vs were thus minded about it that a man having coÌ„mitted adultery which is vnknoweÌ„ to others is not bound by the word of God to reveale himself but vnfeynedly to repent thereof and that in such case he may notwithstanding lawfully continue with his wife Although I be not here in particular to handle this point yet I will now propound these few things to be considered about it As namely what Scriptures teach a man so to accuse â—imself whether it be not vnnaturall for a man so to do whether in Israell the womaÌ„ spoken of Numb 5.12.13 were bound to reveale her adultery being vnknowen vntill or vnlesse her husband were moved with the spirit of ielousy as the Law there is given And wheâ—her â—â—w â—en should of themselves reveale such their case to the Magistrates who haue power to put them to death for it By what Law of God they are bound therevnto And whether els they cannot haue true rpentance but deny the prophecy of Christ erre fundamentally as here he would perswade 2. The second is That there are qualities in God not essentiall that love in God is not of his being but that the self same love that is in God that is also in vs. Himself knoweth and hath bene here convinced of the notable falsehood hereof yet shameth not thus to publish it against vs. And that now the Reader may know how the matter arose I will briefly shew it We haue in our Church the vse of the exercise of Prophecy spoken of in 1 Cor. 14. chap. Rom. 12.6 1 Thes. 5.20 In which some of the brethren such as for gifts are best able though not in office of Ministery deliver from some portion of Scripture doctrine exhortation comfort sometimes two at a tyme sometymes mo Then also if there be occasion vpon the Scripture treated of are questions propounded and answers made accordingly And the whole action moderated by some of the officers and Overseers of the Church In this exercise the first Epistle of Iohn being treated of vpon these words He that loveth not knoweth not God for God is love the poynt aforesaid was by way of quâ—stioÌ„ spoken of And about it there was reasoning by two or three of the brethren this White himself with obiections and answers diversly Wherevpon this Doeg by some of those brâ—threns reasoning the opinion of one of them about this matter took the occasion thus to reproach vs which first he did more privately and now hath done it publikely to the world Wherein his evill dealing is the more notorious because himself being then present knoweth how both at the same tyme the moderation thereof by one of the Elders was according to tâ—e truth disproving the error aforsaid which he would impute vnto vs and afterward he carying himself verie yll about it other things that the matter was againe heard examined in the publick congregation where to his face he was convinced to be a false accuser therein Besides he knoweth the Confession of our faith long since published which alone doth so fully cleare vs in it as very shame of men if no feare of God might haue restrayned his lying lippes and kept him from blaspheming vs with so black a mouth 3. A third thing there was â—nd that obiected by him publickly in the Church and noted also in his letter as a false doctrine lying vpon the Church Namely that vvhen a matter is in the third place to be brought to the Church by the rule of Christ Mat. 18.15.16.17 our order being that the â—lders first have knowledg thereof given them by the parties themselues then that the case being such as is to come to the Church it be publickly propounded and handled by them as in respect of their office apperteyneth vnto them being the governors and overseers of the Church This he blamed then as an error false doctrine contrary to Christs rule Mat. 18. But here now he concealeth it And good cause why For when he was called vpoÌ„ for his proof hereof in the publick CongregatioÌ„ where he had made the accusation he was glad to answer that he vvas not provided And this also after a weeks respite to consider of it Wherevpon he was rebuked as hasty to accuse and slow to prove whereas wisedome would haue taught him first to haue bene provided of proof before he had set himself to accuse as he did But if now he think it to be no error in vs and therefore speakes not of it he might even by this haue learned to set a watch before his mouth at least not to haue barked rgainst vs in so vile a maner as he hath done Or if he still think that we erre therein contrary to Christs rule Mat. 18. as he obiected heretofore why hath he not here noted it downe with the other aforesaid Is it because that ordinance of Christ overthroweth the Prelacy and government of the Church of England whither he is now revolted it being such as they neyther do neyther can in their constitution obserue that rule at all But how then can he approue them for a true Church in such estate and how will he answer the reason alledged by vs against theÌ„ heretofore in this respect which is this Every true visible Church of Christ hath Christs power spoken of Mat. 18 17.18 to cast out â—â—â—unate sinners from among them But the Ecclesiasticall assemblyes of England haue not the power of Christ there spoken of to cast out obstinate sinners from among them Therefore the Ecclesiasticall assemblies of England cannot in their constitution be
accounted true visible Churches of Christ. And hitherto of his false blasphâ—mous doctrines objected against vs in his letter Which in his Libell he saith I promised to ansvver performed it not Yet in the letter it self he writeth that I said I had spoken vnto him both privately publickly now would not further haue to do vvith him And concerning his letter my answer was to this effect as I remember sent him by I.L. one of his own company besides my speach vnto himself That the contents of his letter vvere partly private partly publick that for the private I required proof and for the publick I vvould not deale privaely Wishing also the said I.L. to deale with him for some reports ascribed to him in the letter concerning me which he denyed and to end it between themselves who were of one company together And as I should heare thereof so I should consider what to do for the rest This let him aske of I.L. his own companion and let himself now look vnto it who it is that falsifyeth For not ansvvering his letter by vvriting I had good reason as may appeare by that which before is alledged And Wisdome teacheth there be persons who are not to be answered according to their foolishnes and times also when to speak and when to be silent Pro. 26.4 Eccles. 3.7 vvith 2 King 18.36 The dumbe Ministers spoken of in the place here cited by him he hath now consorted himself withall being returned to his old vomit and become as dumbe as any of them for defending the truth against the aduersaries thereof yet opening his mouth above all his fellowes in blaspheming the truth and witnesses of it Wherein the case of the worst dumbe dog in England is ten thousand fold better then his And happy it had ben for him if his toung had cleaved to the roof of his mouth and his hand never vsed pen more then theirs whereas now his sin is vnspeakably greater his estate infinitely more miserable But leaving him to the iudgmeÌ„t of God I will proceed to the other particulars of his book desiring the Reader for all his pretence of due proof of his charges to remember that saying of Salomon He that is first in his ovvn cause is iust then cometh his neighbour and maketh inquirâ— of him Prov. 18.17 Of the first head of Th White his Treatise THat which followeth in his Treatise himself reduceth to fower heads In which order I will also handle them The first is that he saith vve haue betrayed our ovvn cause in vvriting And to prove it he alledgeth that I erre in the description of a true visible Church and thereby overthrovv the mayn drift of my vvritings I answer 1. His reason followes not For may not I or any other of vs erre in some thing yet our generall cause not be betrayed Agayne did not Nathan the Prophet erre about the building of the Temple and Peter the Apostle about the Gentiles calling and comunion Could now an Edomite or Pharisee have iustly gathered that they had therefore betrayed the cause of Israel or of the Christians witnessed by them against the adversaries To come nearer to our owne times it is well knowen that Mr. Calvine Luther Beza Fulk Powell Sutcliff c. writing against the Papists Anabaptists and the like haue in sundrie things erred even concerning the very pointes of the difference between them Shall vve say therefore that they have betrayed the cause handled betvveen them and their aduersaries and overthrovven the mayne drift of their ovvn vvritings Not to speak of the Martyrs put to death by the Papists how both many of them and in many things have erred even concerning the causes controverted in their tymes Should we therefore conclude that they betrayed their own cause Or that they did not witnesse the truth notwithstanding faithfully even vnto death 2. Our cause towching the Church of England is that the estate thereof is such in their Prelacy Priesthood worship confusion c. as it is not lawfull by the word of God for any to ioyne or continue with them in such estate And moreover that it is the duty of all Christians to receive and keep the faith and ordinances of Christ vvherein the Primitive Churches vvere planted by the Apostles To discusse and make these things more playne I reduced our whole cause to seaven questions and so propounded them viz 1. Whether the Lord Iesus Christ have by his last testament given vnto and set in his Church sufficient ordinary Offices with their Callings Workes Maintenance for the administration of his holy things and for the sufficient ordinary instruction guidance and service of his Church to the end of the world or no 2. Whether the Offices of Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Helpers be those Offices appointed by Christ in his Testament as aforesaid Or whether the present ecclesiasticall Offices of Archbishops Lordbishops Suffragans Deanes Prebendaries Canons Petticanons Priests Deacons Archdeacons Doctors of divinitie Bachelers of divinity Chapleins or housepriests Commissaries Officialls Proctors Apparitors Parsons Vicars Curates Vagrant or Mercenary preachers Church-wardens Sidemen Clerkes Sextins and the rest now had in the Cathedrall and Parishionall assemblies be those Offices appointed by Christ in his Testament as is aforesaid or no 3. Whether the Calling and entrance into these Ecclesiasticall offices aforesaid their Administration and MaintenaÌ„ce now had and reteyned in England be the manner of calling administration maintenance which Christ hath appointed for the offices of his Church above named or no 4. Whether every true visible Church of Christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world the false worship and wayes thereof by the word of God ioyned togeather in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary professioÌ„ of the faith and obedience of Christ And whether the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies of the Land be such or no 5 Whether the Sacraments being seales of righteousnes which is by faith may be administred to any other but to the faithfull and their seed or in any other ministery manner then is appointed by Iesus Christ the Apostle and high Priest of our profession And whether they be not otherwise administred in the Cathedrall parishionall Assemblies of England at this day 6. Whether the Book of Common prayer with the Feasts Fasts Holy dayes stinted prayers and Leiturgy prescribed therein and vsed in these Assemblies be the true worship of God commaunded in his word or the devise and invention of man for Gods worship and service 7. Whether all people and Churches without exceptioÌ„ be not bound in Religion only to receive submit vnto that Ministery worship and order which Christ as Lord and King hath given and appointed to his Church Or whether any may receive or ioyne vnto another devised by man for the service of God And consequently whether they which ioine to the present ecclesiasticall Ministery worship and order of
of his own lippes Of the second head of Thâ— White his Treatise HItherto of the first â—ead of his 〈…〉 â—hat he saith we cut of from being true Curches in our account all the Churches of Christ that ever have ben since the Apostles dayes or now are yâ—â— and our selueâ— also His proof of all this he would fetch partly from the description aforesaid partly from a 〈◊〉 Treatise entituled A true description out of the word of God of the visible Church His instances are three 1. of the Chruches that haue ben since the Apostles dayes 2. of the Churches that now are 3. of our selues Touching which omitting that I haue answered before to his former exception which may here agayn be remembred though I repeat it not let the Reader now first obserue and marke it well how he saith the Churches that haue ben since the Apostles dayes and not the Churches that were in their dayes Beliâ—◠〈…〉 that th◠〈…〉 said cutteth not them of And if not them then not any other at all For that which made them to be true visible Churches doth and must make all other so to be to the end of the world namely the calling of Christ and their mutuall covenant and communion in his Gospell as we haue shewed before out of the Scriptures Wherevpon I reason thus If the description aforesaid cut not of the Primitive Churches planted by the Apostles from being true visible Churches of Christ then doth it not cut of any other which since that tyme haue bene are or shal be to the end of the world But the former is true Therefore the latter The Proposition is vndenyable from the Scriptures and demonstration aforesaid It is one and the same thing that giveth being to all true visible Churches of Chrâ—â—t That which gave being to the Churches of Ierusalem Antioch Rome c. gaue also being to the Churches of Galatia Corinth Ephesus c. notwithstanding the corruptions they fell into And that which then gave being to them giveth being to all that haue ben since or ever shal be The Church is the body of Christ and every one members for their part He is th◠〈◊〉 â—f the body from him doth all the life power thereof pâ—oceed He is not devided The Assumption is as certaâ—ne 〈◊〉 will appearâ— in that the Primitive Churches planted by the Apostles were companies of faithfull people by the word of God called out and separated from the world and the false vvayes thereof gathered and ioyned together in fellovvship of the Gospell by a voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ. This is proved by the Acts of the Apostles and their Epistles throughout And if this man or his Maisters of whome he learned to object against this description do deny it as by their exceptions reasons is implyed may not we justly returne vnto them that which vnjustly they would impute vnto vs and say Are not they then the blasphemers of the Christians and their Churches Or is not this to robbe Christ of his honour Or may not that saying be verifyed of themselues He that despiseth his neighbour is a foole Pro. 11.12 But let vs come to his proof concerning the Churches spoken of by himself Thus he concludeth it If no Church that hath bene since the Apostles dayes or novv is that we read of be separate from all false vvayes in their account then by this description and in tho◠〈…〉 Churches But the former is true Therefore the latter Answ. The whole Sillogisme fayleth as he hath propounded it In the Proposition or first 〈…〉 thaâ— which in the description is particularly specified and needfull alway to be observed namely to be companies by the word of God called out from the world and false wayes thereof gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell c. Wherfore his Proposition is not so vndenyable as hâ— supposâ—th from thaâ— description And when these particulars which now he hath omittâ—d be 〈…〉 to be implyed yet then also by further following of â—he AssumptioÌ„ may there be occasion to obserue more concerning it And for the Assuption it self or second part of the Reason it must needs fayle in like maner because of that omitted in the Proposition aforesaid His reason therefore if he would haue reasoned soundly and to the purpose should haue bene framed thus If no Church that hath bene since the Apostles dayes or now is that we read of be in their account by the word of God called out and separated from the world and the false wayes thereof gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntarie profession of the faith and obedience of Christ then by his description and in their account must they be no true Churches But the former is true Therefore the latter Answ. 1. The very propounding of the Reason thus sheweth the weaknes of it 2. And what if we would not be drawen to speak of the Churches since but onely of them that were in the Apostles dayes keeping onely to the word of God and that which is recorded therein If they cannot by it or the example of those Churches disproue our testimony what would it help them or hurt vs if we answered them no further 3. Yet to answer this Reason notwithstanding and to omit the Proposition as is aforesaid I requier proof of the Assumption because all that he hath brought for confirmation of it doth not yet proue it as will appeare by discussing his allegations concerning the Churches he speaketh of 1. that were then 2. that now are 3. and our selues For the first viz the Churches heretofore since the Apostles dayes all that he saith is that we account the very saying of the Lords Prayer as a prayer to be a false way which was vsed from the Apostles age c. Ans. 1. Is this all he can alledge against vs concerning those Churches tymes Others 〈…〉 would perswade they have it by 〈◊〉 also of those wâ—iteâ—s that Archbishops Primates Metropolitans Archdeacons stinted formes of prayer the vse of the signe of the crosse and a number of such like things haue ben from the Apostles age Should we therefore believe them herein And how cometh it that this Antiquarie hath never a word of all these for those tymes Is it that he thinketh we hold them not now for false wayes of governing the Church and worshipping the Lord Or is it not in deed because the Hypocrite would not yet be seen to speak for these and would notwithstanding so dissâ—mble the matter as yet may please all sorts that are against vs 2. To speake of that he alledgeth admitting all he saith here to be true yet is not the Assumption thereby proued For in all true Churches the calling of Christ and the Churches covenant to obey the Gospell bindes them from all errour and false wayes notwithstanding that both the members and the whole body be subject to fall into them from
them wee haue alwaies shewed it And this more particularly as we have had more special occasion in our dealing with the Dutch French Churches of this City When some of their members haue left them because of their corruptions and come to joyne themselues vnto vs we haue required such first to deale with them as with true Churches alway should be done namely to advertise the Elders first and then the whole body of the Church whereof they were if they might be suffered of the corruptions for which they thought to leaue them Which we require not of such as come vnto vs from any false Church Also when some of our Church have gone vnto them and declined from the truth which they professed with vs vnto their corruptions we haue had dealing thereabout with the Elders both of the Dutch and French Churches of this towne that were by the rest of their Elderships deputed therevnto before we would proceed with the parties for this their revolt and transgression And when the Dutch Church here received such to be members of them as our Church excommunicated for their sinnes we also admonished their Elders hereof desiring that by themselves or by vs knowledg of these things might be given to the whole body of their Church Which course of dealing we vse not with any false Church or the Ministers thereof But to insert here in particular the dealing that hath passed between vs them of this towne would be to long their corruptions whereabout we have dealt with them are already published By which and this that hath here bene said let the Reader judg whethâ—r we haue not cause to put differeÌ„ce between them the other Churches of these countries not so dealt withal For not hearing of them in other of their Congregations in these countreys this I answer That seeing by the mercy of God we haue seen and forsaken the corruptions yet remayning in the publick ministration and condition of these Churches if they be al like to them of this city we therefore cannot partake with them in such case without declining and apostasy from the truth which we haue our selues already received and professed This also I speak of the members of our Church so walking and witnessing as is aforesaid and not of the members of their owne Churches whose duty I think it is before they may leaue them for their corruptions first to signify them vnto them and by al good meanes to seek the redresse therof among them as being members of the same body with them Which I take also to be the duty of all such as haue knowledge of their corruptions and being not of them yet would coÌ„municate with them in their publick administration And this for true Churches But as for any false these are not the duties or rules prescribed for them but other of a far differing nature namely when once we see their abhominations to separate from them without delay and to witnesse against them even vnto death The further declaration whereof with confirmation from the Scriptures the Reader may have in divers of our Treatises already published about our cause As in the Refut of Mr. Giff. In the Answ. to Mr. A.H. pag. 61. c. But he provoketh me yet further and saith If he can let him name any one Church on the face of the earth now that holdeth not false waies yea even in their constitution in their account Although I might answer as before that the calling of Christ and the Churches covenant to walk in the faith of his Gospell excludeth al false wayes in all true Churches whether as yet seen or vnseen and therfore in the Reformed Churches so acknowledged by vs yet because he presseth me so earnestly to name but any one Church on the face of the earth I wil giue the instance of that Church in the west parts of England whereof himself was a joyned member when he separated from the Church of England and held the same faith with them and vs from which he is now apostate And let him now name any false way holden by them in their constitution in our account Of the distinction to be observed between faulty false worship I haue spoken here before As also of his blaspheming the Christians and their Churches despising neighbours and robbing Christ himself of his honour And now by that which hath ben said let the Reader obserue how true it is in himself that after al his earnest endevour not alone to wound but even to kill others if he could he hath turned the poynt of his weapon into his owne bowels Which will also yet further appeare in that which followeth in his particular objection against the Church whereof we are our selues which he saith is not agreable to our description aforesaid Against our selues the proof he bringeth is this that he saith vve are not separate from al open offenders and all false vvayes and to shew this he produceth many particular persons and matters I answer admitting al he saith against vs both the generall and particulars were true yet notwithstanding the description aforesaid should stand good and our Church also agreable therevnto For this yet should be the errour of our practise not of our covenant or calling in Christ According to which we are alway to esteem or Churches as we haue â—hewed before Otherwise to reason as this man doth against vs were to condemne those Churches of Asia Galatia Corinth and all that ever haue bene from the beginning to this day But to come to the particulars his first allegation is that he saith we reteyne among vs open offenders and for instance the first he nameth is one Cast. noted publikly in our meeting for cousonage c. A man that is of the Church of England and so was a good while before this book of Whites was published Sometyme in deed he lived among vs here but after a while began to be so noted and dealt with as fynding the Church to be no harbour for him but that he must walk better or be cast out from among vs he returned to England where he knew he might be reteyned in that Church and where Th. White his fellow will no doubt brook him well ynough But further he saith the Elders here defended that he ought not to be publiklie dealt withall for it because it was not orderly made publik Indeed we hold that private sins should privatly be dealt with if any bring in publick without private dealing going before according to the rule given by Christ Math 18.15.16 we suffer it not but rebuke them that so walk Wherevpon this White himself being by one of the brethren reproved for so dealing with the party aforesaid it seemeth still to stick on his stomack and the more because afterward vpon speach thereof my self with the rest of the Elders signifyed our dislike of such disorderly and evill walking Touching his repentance such as were then
written in particular that they said Our father which art in heaven c. there were some proportion in his maner of reason which now is not Besides the Apostles and Evangelists themselves recording the institution and vse of the Lords supper observe not the same words alike yet all of them agree in the same matter and substance Mat. 26.26.27.28 Mark 14.22.23.24 Luk. 22.19.20 1 Cor. 11.24.25 And why should we not think likewise of their administration of Baptismâ— that it was according to thâ— coÌ„maundement of Christ though the same particular words be not rehearsed Or how can any make question of it when it is recorded that they baptised not in their owne name but in the Name of the Lord Act. 2 38.41 10.48 Rom. 6 3. 1 Cor. 1.13.15 Gal. 3.27 with Mat. 28.19 And so by their example have taught vs how to vnderstand and vsâ— these things aright Exception 3. 3. It is the Anabaptists reasoning against childrens baptisme asking for an example when otherwise there is sufficient warrant so to do yet are their Pretences as good or better then Mr Iohnsons in refusing obedience to our Lords commaundement for want of an example Answer A childish collection froÌ„ the Anabaptists errour about childrenâ— baptisme How often shall we speak it that other sufficient warrant from the Scriptures is as good as a thousand examples And why will he needs shew himself to be like the Anabaptists who would bring in a worship of God for which there cannot be shewed sufficient warrant eyther by precept or by example or sound collection from the Scriptures and so by consequence in tyme deprive the Church of that true worship of God which we are taught both by commaundement and by example and by vnanswerable reasons drawen out of the word of God Wherein the very experience of former tymes so extreemly corrupted in this exercise of prayer might and ought to teach vs to be more carefull For administring the seale of Gods covenant and sacrament of iâ—itiation consequently of Baptisme vnto children being the seed of the faithfull we have both precept example and vndeniable reasons out of the word of God which I will not here stand to relate If our reasons towching the vse of the forme of Prayer spoken of be so weak as he pretendeth why did he not vndertake to answer them but chuse rather to insist vpoÌ„ the Pretences which now he hath purposelie published concerning that Argument And why will he never leave begging of that which he should prove that i◠〈◊〉 our Lords commaundement to say over the very words prescribed Mat. 6. â— Luk 11. for our prayer vnto God Exception 4. 4. The Prayers mencioned in the new Testament are such as 〈◊〉 powred forth vpon speciall occasion as Act. 4.24 Ioh. 17. Answer An absurd pretence and such as wherein he is against himself yeelding that the Lords prayer is not to be vsed vpon speciall occasion or els he speaketh nothing to the purpose And if it teach vs not how to pray vpoÌ„ speciall occasion how is it a perfect directioÌ„ Or if it do yet be not in such case to be vsed how plain is it that Christs meaning the Apostles vnderstanding of it was such as not to prescribe it for our prayer but for our instruction and direction therein Againe Christ saith When ye pray say Our father c. therefore also vpon speciall occasion if that were his meaning as he would perswade Not to speak how themselves commonly hold and give out that it is such as is fit to be vsed at all tymes and for all occasions So well they agree together But why doth he cite here Ioh. 17. wherein Christs prayer a little before his death is mentioned Is it to shew that though Christ did not then vse it praying vpon speciall occasion yet at other times he did If this bâ— his intendement who will believe him that Christ who had no sinn could aske forgivenes of sinne as in that forme of prayer is prescribed If this be not his meaning to what purpose is that Scripture alledged vnles it be to reason against himself to shew still his owne foolishnes Exception 5. 5 Let them shew me an example where ever the Apostles prayed before their Sermons if they can Answer 1. Have they not read what is written of the Apostles Act. 6.4 how they said to the brethren at Ierusalem Look ye out men whom we may appoint to this busines of the Deacons office And we will give our selves continually to prayer and to the ministration of the word Nor how the Apostle Paul gave direction concerning publick prayer when he wrote to the Churches and to Timothee about publik doctrine whether it were in propheticall or ministeriall vse of the word of God 1 Cor. 11.4 and 14. chap. 1 Tim. 1. and 2. chap. Or when Paul taught Timothee that the food of the body is to be sanctified vnto vs by prayer should he not think likewise of the food of the soule 2. And what though the particular circuÌ„stance of time before or after be not set down Or that the Apostles having to deale with severall sorts of persons occasions did diversly cary themselves according therevnto 3. Or doth it not ly vpon the Ministers in publik to be aswell the mouth of the Church vnto God in prayer as to be the mouth of God to the Church in doctrine Or should we think that the Apostles did not carefully performe the whole worke of the Ministery committed vnto them 4. Finally let these men shew vs an example in the Apostles or Primitive Churches where ever they said their prayers over by tote or vsed a book of Common prayer among them or read any prayers at all for their prayer to God or had Archbishops Lordbishops Archdeacons Priests Parsons Vicars c. eyther for vse of prayer or for any other service Ministery or government of the Churches of Christ. Finis Gen. 25.33.34 Heb. 12.16 Whites Discov pag. 4. Ignorance * Mr Sedg to Mr Pow. Falsehood Mr â—â— Violence Whites Discov pag. 20. Whites Discov pag. 6. Pro. 26.26 Prov. 18.17 Pro. 26.5 Prov. 26.4 Prov. 18.2 Micah 7.8.9.10 (a) Wh. Discovery pag. 5· * Act. 24.5 28.22 Mat. 18.15 17.18.22 Luke 17.4 1 Cor. 5.1.4.5.11.12.13 Esa. 16.4 Psal. 103.6 Psal. 9.18 * Besides the Ministery of the vvord * Since altered as himself knoweth b And this also with consent of the Church then signified c Ansvv. to Mr A. H. pag. 62. * To I.L. in his ovvn hearing d Ansvv. to Mr H. Ia. p. 17 4. * Tremell and Iun. on Exod. 2.23 1 Cor. 1â— Pro. 12.13 * Lib. de Monogam Tertul. lib. de Orat. * Tertull. Lib. de orat a Lib. de praescript aduersus haeret b Lib. de virgin veland Confess with Mr Iun. letters pag. 54. * pag 23. Mr R. Ia. * Whites disco p. 7. in the margent A.P. At Northampton ‡ Whites discov pag 26. Contra Marcion lib. 4. c. 5. Lib. de Orat ‡ Yet resting with peace in their difference of iudgment therabout * 1 Cor. 6.16 * Mat. 19. †1 Cor. 6.9.11 ‡ Of this I think my self haue had speach with this Th. White heretofore howsoever now he write as if he had never heard it of any of vs. A true descript of a visible Church * Num. 12.3 Ps. 106.33 Deut. 5.32 1 Tim. 5.21 Mat. 10.37 †The Prelate of Lond. c. Gen. 29. 30. 31. 34. Gen. 34. 35. 37. 38. chap. Epist. to he Corinhians 2 Cor. 11.13.14.15 Answ. to Mr H. I. p. 14. c. Pro. 11 9 Confess with Mr Iun. letters pag. 54. And that we might would if he did thus W. Simson Apologie Discovery RefutatioÌ„ Questions Answer to Mr H. c. 1 Cor. 10.18 Act. 15. Rom. 14. Phil. 3.16 A Discourse of certaine troubles excom c. Confess with Mr Iun. letters Pag. 54. Nehem. 6.8 Prov. 24.28 ‡ In these countreyes being from the Church vpon occasion †But afterward I did speak more to him here about as he may remeÌ„ber ‡ Smyrnâ— Philadelphia c. †Corinth Galat. Pergamuâ— c. And these were in deed the causes that made vs think more and otherwise of this matter theÌ„ we had done Which we also shewed in the Church ‡ 2 Tim. 1.5 and 3.14.15 and 1 Tim. 4.6.12 with Act. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. chap. †Ephe. 4.11 Rom. 12.7 Aâ—t 5.29 Prov. 26.2 Psal. 109.17.18 Numb 16. Gen. 9.29.27 †Whites Discov p. 24. Prov. 11.21 Eccles. 10.12.13 * Aswell those that have fallen as the rest * Mat. 6.9 ‡ Apologie Discovery Questions Answ to Mr H. c. See also Iob 22.17 Esa. 44.17 Ier. 2.27 Hab. 2.19 1 Cor. 11.20 c. Gen. 5. 2 Tim. 4.4.5
will vndertake the defence of your own doctrine In that scripture is shewed a power which Christ hath given to his Church ver 17.20 for the removing out of their communion ver 17. such as remayne vnrepentant and obstinate in their sinnes ver 16.17 and therefore excommunication To what end should this doctrine tend if not to bereave the Church of that power which Christ hath left for the sweeping of vncleannes out of the house of God But this shall be further shewed from whose breasts you suckt this poisoned milk which now you give others to drinck if you will not leave the doctrine to the wide world without defence 2. In that you trussed vp another false doctrine on the same Scripture that the party offēder Mat. 18.17 should be an heathē publican only to the party first offēded not to the whole Church Whē as the whol Church hath as much cause to be offended as the party that was first offended yea more cause thē that party had at first to be offended by reason of the continuance in his sinne which the offender hath added to his former sinne If you had vnderstood what had bene meant by trespasse verse 15 you would not haue thus abused this Scripture as may also be further shewed In this point one of your Ministers but of greater wisdome discretion then your self hath signifyed his contrary iudgment to you thereon as I have heard as knowing I doubt not the falsehood and vanity of your assertion thereon Yea I dare vndertake that many of your our owne Ministers of best reformed iudgments will be ashamed of these black drops which falls from your lipps 3. In that you published in like sort that though open offenders did communicate with true Christians yet were they not defiled thereby traducing Mr Iohns 〈◊〉 affirming the contrary And yet when you came to the triall of it in conference between you and my self you said your meaning was of a true Christian in the sight of God not of a true Christian in the sight of men as he is a member of the visible Church and that such a Christian could not sinne or be defiled with sinne in that he was regenerate or borne of God which was never the question betweene vs and so a true Christian did not sinn though he should commit Idolatry Adultery or the like in that sence that you tooke sinning Yea a true Christian might as much be defiled with sinne in communicating with open offenders as by committing adultery for any thing you have said in that conference which is vnder your hand This was your miserable shifting I feare against the light of your conscience Yet Mr Ies. a few dayes after in a conference betweene Mr Pow. and himself at Mr Bayl. on the same question took it in an other sense yea in that sence as which you said you meant not neither could I bring you vnto it as may appeare in that conference Such confusion of languages doth well become the builders of Babell 4. For that in your letter to Mr St. S.W.W.N. dated the 20. of Ian 1603. you would vndertake though no other would assist you yet your self by word or writing or howsoever against whomsoever to iustify your Ministerie doctrine c. and yet by word in conferring you refused to iustify your Ministery whē you were provoked therevnto yea when I offred to prove it false in those particulars you mentioned and to be separated from I offred also to prove your doctrine false on the 18. of Mat. and 13. of Mat. but you refused I desired that I might propose one argument concerning the question between vs but you would deale no further except you might put downe some proof further of that which we never doubted of viz that a true Christian in the sight of God did not sinne in the regenerate part as he was borne of God Was this timorous fearefull dealing answerable to your bombasted boastings let others iudge These be the doctrines of desolation which you do scatter Let others now iudge what cause we haue to account you a false prophet and they in miserable case that are led by such blind guides Did you not tremble to wish in the pulpit that the Lord would stop your mouth if you spake not the truth Your dealing hath confirmed vs and bene a meanes through Gods goodnes to gaine others to the trueth we professe and for your self remember seing you care not what you teach nor how you take the name of God in vaine that which is written Ion. 2.8 that they that wayt vpon lying vanities forsake their owne mercy 3. And yet least the measure of your iniquity were not full already you add violence persecution to your former evill dealing When you are not able to stand by the word you try whether you can suppresse vs by the sword 1 Your self would not suffer Mr Pow. to make answer to you at Slaughtens fearing least your falsehood should be discovered thereby 2 Afterward Mr Ies. by letters intreated him not to make you answer publikly that you might speak what you would without controlement 3 And seing these meanes would not prevayle your self to shew whose servant you are with others went vp againe againe as if much paynes had bene too little to procure a warrant to attach him Will We. told Mr Pow. that Mr Aw was the procurer of the warrant Thus do you by falsehood violence seek to vphold your ruinated kingdome when truth verity hath forsaken her And you shew yourself in deed to be an Edomite red with bloud Ob. 1.10 like the scarlet coloured beast who hath a mouth like a Dragon 4 Your associate Mr At. could tell me that an other place was fitter for me meaning the prison To whō I answered that if I had the gift of dissembling which he had to subscribe against my conscience as he did I told him then whē wher I might live longe enough inioy Achans wedge as himself doth without abridgement of liberty You of all others may be ashamed to dissemble thus with the Prelates knowing how basely you have thought spoke of them 5 You Mr Aw could call vs brethren afterward being vrged for your dissembling you could expound your meaning that it was in respect of creation and so Cayn Ismaell Antichrist be your brethren too yea nearer of kin then so by persecution too 6 Your self could say not long since that of all sects on some conditions you could soonest joyne to vs as being nearest the truth yet a little after call vs rebells but rebellion being a high degree of treason your self if you conceale it 24. houres will incurr the danger thereof looke you to it 7 You promised by writing to put downe reasons to iustify your Ministerie and doctrine betweene vs conferred of but we thought before how slack we should find you in performance At your next comming to Slaughtens
In the fourth his bad dealing doth yet further appeare it being a matter wherewith himself is acquainted and yet propoundeth not the case truely as he knoweth it to be VVe have indeed misliked in the Dutch Church not Churches as he speaketh of AmsterdaÌ„ that consisting of so great a multitude it is but one and yet meeteth in three severall places by meanes whereof the whole Church cannot come together in one the ministers can not together with the flock sanctifie the Lords day the presence or absence of the meÌ„bers of the Church cannot certainly be knowen nor any publick action be rightly performed Which reasons we signifyed to themselves in our dealing with them heretofore On the other side we misliked also that a few people being straungers together in one towne of one language of one profession in religion having not before tyme their peculiar officers should in such case yet divide themselues into severall Churches For which I required example or warrant out of the Scriptures and alledged my self divers reasons about this question And what contrariety now is there in these things being laid together as they ought with their true and due circumstances Such perhaps as the false teachers would pretend against Paul when he circumcised Timothee Act. 16.1.3 and yet would not circumcise Titus but withstood the false brethren that vrged it Gal. 2.3.4.5 The others he speaketh of were himself and some other with him who had left the Church of England and came to dwell here Touching whom seing he pretendeth that they ioyned not to vs for divers disorders amongst vs I wil here advertise the Reader a few things coÌ„cerning them and those also specially out of their own letters which being as their owne children shall also be their Iudges WheÌ„ they had left the Church of England as having aâ— Antichristian Ministery worship confusion c. they first joyned in to a Church in the West parts of England professing the same faith with vs. A while after they came over hither at first communicated with vs but afterward being about twelve or thirteen they ioyned themselues here as a body together to walk in the same faith and way as we do reputing and calling themselves a Church distinct from vs and in their letters to the Church of the West countrey thus inscribed them The Church in Amst. to our bretheren the Church in the West partakers of the same heavenly vocation c. And in the letter wrote thus For our consultatioÌ„ resolution thus it is To meet apart by our selves aswell for the redresse of disorders that may arise as also for the administration of the word expecting the blessing of God which hath not chosen vs for our multitude seeing we were the fewest of all others And againe in the same letter for our own estate though our hope to be a body distinct in our countrey vvere yet is not our hope to be a distinct body in a straung countrey frustrated but rather accomplished And afterward againe speaking of vs and themselues they say For the other Churches estate though that acknowledgment of them vvere graunted yet all things considered vvhether God doth not offer vs occasion to increase the number of the Churches and our selves to vvalk together in holynes to the Lord vvho have had better experience one of another then of that Churches estate that by this meanes the adversaries reproches of one Church and flocking therevnto setting vp one head may be stopped is the thing vve pray you to ponder Thus they wrote in a generall letter together And in another of theirs written in particular by this T. White Tho. Pow. We say they through Gods mercy haue our meetings now apart from our bretheren the Church in Amsterdam building vp our selves vvith that small ability that God hath inabed vs vvithall c. as also receiving such members as vve fynd meet and desirous of our fellowship And afterward in the same letter Wâ— haue had one meeting already together vvherein M. W. is ioyned Consider that vvhich is vvritten Exo. 7. â— and pray vvith vs that the Lord vvould sâ—nd the Northvvynd and the Southvvynd the one cold the other hote Luk 12.55 that is the liuely graces of his spirit in the preaching of his Law and Gospell to blow vp that our garden may be fruitfull Cant. 4.16 but not an Eastvvynd vvhich vvithered Ionas gourd Ion 4. Thus wrote they then of themselves By which may appear both what they intended and for what They intended to be a severall Church from vs though they were but a few and of the same faith living straungers together in the same towne c. And the cause why they did it That they might redresse disorders among themselves that they might be a distinct body in a straung countrey as they purposed in our native countrey before they came over hither that they might encrease the number of Churches that they might stop the adversaries reproches of one Church and flocking therevnto setting vp one head that they might receive such meÌ„bers as were desirous of their fellowship and that they might also themselves be a garden fruitfull c. If these things were so as then they wrote how saith he now in his book that the cause why they would not ioyne to vs was for disorders amongst vs How do his letters and his Libell agree together Specially seing in the same letters at the same tyme they write vs to be their brethreÌ„ the Church in Amsterdam of whose estate they had not that experience c. Belike he had forgotten the old saying Mendacem oportet esse memorem A lyer had need have a good memorie And further if it were as he saith now why did they not then so alledg that we might haue insisted therevpon why shrank they from the handling of the question between vs which we would have discussed by the Scriptures had not they refused as they did But if some be not mistaken there was an other cause then any of the aforesaid which they will not make knowen namely that Mr Po. this White might have bene Officers of that Church whereof they had little hope among vs to satisfie their desier Which whether it were so or not themselves know best And howsoever yet with what face can this hypocrite write as he doth that they would not joyn to vs for divers disorders among vs when but even a while after they returned to the Church of England which they knew certainly to have not onely divers disorders but even a multitude of the corruptions of Antichrist the sonne of perdition Well might he write of these things as he did in another letter of his to Mr S. W. Respice finem Look to the end For as they sowed so have they reaped not having the wind of Gods grace to blow vpon them that they might be a fruitfull garden but the worme of Gods judgment to smite them that they might become a withered gourd
And this according to his owne prophecy though as Caiaphas speaking more trueth then himself intended when to the same Mr S. W. he wrote thus also Certainly if God doth not worke mightily for vs we shall come to desolation Balaam even then when he would have cursed Israel prophecied the truth though against his will 5. The fift is a meer calumniation like the rest In the place quoted we blame in the Dutch as we do also in the French Church of this towne that the rule and commaundement of Christ Mat. 18.15.16.17 they neyther observe nor suffer rightly to be observed among them If this man-pleaser could approue them herein why doth he not For our selves we do carefully observe it think all the Churches of Christ are bound so to do For deciding of matters which are of publick nature they are made knowen and decided among vs in by the whole body of the Church and not by the Elders alone Yet therein we have this order that all such matters be first signifyed to the Elders to whom the oversight of the Church and affaires thereof apperteyneth by whom likewise they are proprounded advised treated of also publickly as the cases do require Of which points we have spoken sufficient at least till we be answered in our Apologie against the Oxf. Doct. pag. 63.64 Notwithstanding if any come to the Elders eyther for our advise or to have some matters brought to the Church we shew them what we think to be best as we are perswaded our selves yet debar not any from proceeding further so as they will answer their doing to the Church as there the case shal be found to be And this to be our practise and maner of walking I think this man himself knoweth well For T. C. his matter the Elders did not decide it as he falsely saith but shewed him what we our selves thought to be best according to godlynes and required of him to do no otherwise in it then he could answer to God and to the Church Of the matter it self as also of W. H. is spoken here before pag. 33. And for that he saith here seeing W.H. his wife put him away who can constreine her or any other in like case to retein such if themselves be not willing For the bringing of matters in a third place to the Elders as they have obiected Mr P. himself the rest of them have ben answered that we do not so but that when in the third place a matter is to come vnto the Church by that rule of Mat. 18. this is the order we keep therein that first knowledg thereof be given to the Elders the overseers of the Church then that they seing the matter to be such and so dealt in as is to come to the Church it be by them publickly propounded and prosequuted as is meet whereas otherwise both the Church might be troubled and mens names and private matters be brought in publick without iust cause And this we do not adding to that rule of Christ as this man and his followers have still objected but having that care and keeping that order in the observation thereof as the Scriptures els where lead vs vnto For which see 1 Tim. 5.17.18.19.21.22 4.14 Heb. 13.17 Rom. 12.7.8.1 Thes. 5.12.13.14.27 Rev. 2.1.7.8.11.12.18.29 3.1.6.7.13.14.22 with Exod. 3.16 4.29.30.31 12.21 and with 1 Cor. 14.40 By which also may appeare how frivolous it is that he saith we alledge the same reasons for our practise which we approue noâ— in â—he Dutch As if we should put no difference between the Eldership alone hearing and deciding the publick matters of the Church between the Elders according to their office having knowledg advising and propounding of such matters to be heard and discussed by the body of the Church joâ—ntly together Or as if the reasons which warrant a lawfull thing should also beare out that which is vnlawfull or that we should not therefore disallow them when by any they are so applyed And for the abuse of that rule of Mat. 18. whether through evill affection in partiality and envie or to an evill end to cover filthynes withall if any do so as he saith measuring others it may be by the length of his owne foot they are to answer it to God who knoweth the heart and tryeth the reynes to give to every one according to their works Our duty is for that which man may see judge to have that rule as all other the ordinances of Christ carefully observed among vs Whereat let him consider if his heart grieve not more then it doth that the Church of England of which he is neyther doth nor can in their estate observe that nor many other the ordinances of Christ by reason whereof they cannot be esteemed a true Church of Christ in such constitution As I shewed before pag. 8. 6. For the sixt which is about the worshipping of God in the Idol TeÌ„ples of Antichrist can he not put difference between the ordinarie publick worship of the Church in such places and the occasionall receiving of aâ—mes therein by the poore Neither between the benevolence of a Church to the Ministers or Saints of Christ which is â—he sacrifice spoken of Phil. 4.18 the relief of a City given to the poore that dwell among them be they of any religion whatsoever one or other Which I speak not as discommending the care they have for the poore among them which is very great and much commendable but to shew the nature of this action how it is performed Nor will he discerne between the solemne appointed worship of God by the Church so assembled together and the private duties of thankfulnes of salutation or the like Or doth he think we hold it not lawfull to walk vp and downe in the Idol Temples as they vse in Powles at London or if we be walking there to lift vp our hearts to God as occasion may be or if we meet some there of whom we have received a benefit to give theÌ„ thankes Or if their Temples were made prisons as in Powles aforesaid there are divers and some of vs committed thither as heretofore sundry have bene by the Prelates that we would not pray there yea preach also as there might be occasion Or when we did so would he therevpon inferre as now he doth that we coÌ„demne others in those things which we would and do our selues A senseles conclusioÌ„ but wel beseming a Baals Priest that hath a good will if he had ability withall to plead for Baals altars and houses As for the poynt it self and the place of Deut. 12. we haue written already in other Treatises not yet aunswered Therefore need I not now write more about it here But let the Reader obserue here how this Idoll Priest himself yeeldeth these places to be Idoll Temples and the Temples of Antichrist Yet bringeth no warrant for the reserving and appoynting of them to spirituall vse
doing in regard of Gods requiring but one day in seaven for publick worship and permitting six for labour because of the popish and superstitious observance of these tymes still reteyned and other the like And what though in these things being matters of such nature and question we have differed in judgment Is it any other thing then the Christians in the Primitive Churches at this day in all ages haue ben may be in divers cases subject vnto For the second it is a notable deceitfull vntruth that we have our meetings for worship on their holy dayes For although their Easter and Whitsunday falling alwayes on the Lords day the feast of Ascension of the fift day on the week called Ascension Thursday we haue our publick meetings on those dayes yet it is not at all in respect of their holy dayes but because that weekly we have our meetings on those dayes all the yeare thorow Besides if we observed their holy dayes as much as they do we should have a religious regard of them have our publick metings for worship as they have on Christmasse day the morrow after also on the morrow after Easter and Whitsunday Which dayes together with the former he knoweth they observe and we not Yet shameth he not thus to write as he doth as if his Lords the Prelates had given him a dispensation to lye and calumniate no matter how and that now he is growen so wicked and shameles that he counteth it nothing so to do if thereby he may please his Lords or pleasure himself God thus justly punishing his former hyprocrisie and present apostasy so matching his writing with his walking as it should be an evident testimony in the sight of all how vndeniably his owne collections are true in himself as in his Lords too which so injuriously he would apply vnto vs and how far he is behind the very heathen even Medea her self which said Video meliora proboque Deteriora sequor I see better things approve them but I follow the worse wheras himself after the example of his Patrones though he see better things yet doth not so much as approve them but set himself to oppugne them what he can possibly and for the worse things doth not onely follow them but approve and applaud them most shamefully yea and therevnto bringeth pretended allegation of Scripture as if it were no sinne to take the Name of God in vayne and make the Scriptures serve his owne fancy yea his lyes calumnies For which certainly the Lord will not hold him guiltles And where he pretendeth against vs as if he could declare false and impertinent allegation of Scripture and yet passeth by it vndeclared the Reader observing his purpose and dealing may easily gather that if he thought himself able to do it he wanteth no will therevnto That which he referreth vnto in a book already published will not prove it so much as in part no though himself with all his ayders do joyne withall The point is about the Scriptures alledged by vs against the yearely chaunge of the Elders in this Dutch Church and not continewing in their office according to the doctrine of the Apostles and practise of the Primitive Churches Which Scriptures be these Rom. 12.4.5.6.7.8 1 Cor. 12.11.12 c. Act. 20.17.28 1 Pet. 5.1.2.3.4 and Numb 8.24 c. Where there be many reasons expressed and included plainely disproving the yearely chaunge and dismission aforesaid As namely the authority and work of the Lord making them Overseers of his Church and placing them as members in his body the duties of wayting on their office of feeding the flock coÌ„mitted vnto them of attendance care and watchfulnes therein the account to be given thereof vnto the Lord and the reward to be hoped for from him according to his promise at that day and other the like Neither can any example or reason of sound consequence be shewed froÌ„ the Scriptures for warrant of their practise But I need not speak further of this point vnles some would vndertake their defence against vs in the particulars wherein we have had to deale with them Which neyther themselves could performe nor any other would yet so much as attempt for them though some great learned men have had just occasion therevnto if they could have done it As for that he saith of the book aforesaid lying vnanswered we have divers reasons for so leaving it 1. It is but part of a book printed before the rest was finished And to see the whole might be of speciall vse if an answer should be given vnto it 2. Synce the writing thereof it pleased God to visite him with sicknes that he died And seing he is dead we do so leave him forbearing now to write what we could aâ— is well knowen to many 3. He did not like as this man leave or contrary our generall cause and testimony against the Church of England but held it so himself as of late going into England he was there taken and put in prison for this cause where he died vnder their hands These reasons among other we have of not answering it Being notwithstanding alway ready as there is just and needfull occasion to answer for our selves to defend the trueth and equity of our cause dealing or wherein we haue erred to acknowledg and amend it as we have often signifyed heretofore Now for that wherewith he coÌ„cludeth even false accusations of whole Churches would shew it by comparing the 7. accusation in our letters to Mr Iunius with the practise of the Dutch Churches it is to be observed that the particular corruptions there noted whereof we have advertised the Eldership of this Dutch Church be eleâ—eÌ„ in all so as this enemy graunteth himself ten of them to be true And for the other that one whereof he speaketh namely their yearly chaunge of Elders it also is so true as the Ministers themselves deputed among them to deale with vs knowing best their owne estate practise did never so much as once offer to deny it and their continuall practise if they have not left it of late avowcheth it against all gaynsayers Yet this flattâ—rer to speak somewhat for them shameth not to say that is false which is very true like as here before against vs he affirmed those things to be true which are very false A fit servant for his Lords the Prelates with whom it is coÌ„moÌ„ in all their dealing against vs to account give out of the truth that it is falsehood and againe of falsehood that it is trueth That in himself and his Masters may be seen verifyed that saying of Plautê° here alledged Iustum non iustum non iustum iustum quod vobis placet Let them therfore consider their wayes in their heart and lay their hands on their mouth Els let them know that out of their owne mouth they shal be judged according to those
dagger c. Now whereas it hath bene objected that they refused not simply to come that charity would have taken things in the best part that the Church might have appointed them another day c. it was also graunted that these and all such things should have bene duly weighed afore the censure had bene executed and that whatsoever errour was committed therin is alway to be acknowledged yet for the reasons before alledged the censure was deemed to be just and not to be recalled And for those he speaketh of that withstood their receiving in againe even this sheweth that there were then among themselves which thought the excommunication was not to be revoked Yet were not they therefore excommunicated as he saith but were earnestly exhorted to rest in their difference of judgement and notwithstanding it peaceably to continew with the Church if it were but till they could vse the advise and help of others for the better clearing of this conttroversy which had so long much troubled theÌ„ Yet they would not but left of all communion with the Church and so persisting were for this cause excommunicated Who also afterward vpon acknowledgement of their eâ—rour therein were received agayne Finally for the reversing agayn of the censure aforesaid who kâ—oweth not that even the best and wisest men have their second 〈◊〉 thoughts and that in some cases this befell the Prophets Apostles themselves howsoever here he terme it a dallying esteeming others belike by himself who hath so chaunged and rechaunged his faith and profession as if he thought he might dally with religion at his pleasure But the Lord is not mocked As he hath sowed to the flesh so let him look of the flesh to reap corruption For as every man soweth so shall he reap Gal. 6.7.8 2. Of the second instance which is about such as have heard the word preached in the Dutch Church I have spoken before If he had named the divers he speaketh of it might have bene shewed that they were cast out for divers causes As M. Sl. whom onely he nameth in particular was for receiving and maynteyning these errors 1. The baptising of the seed of such as are no meÌ„bers of any visible Church of Christ neyther can be themselves received to the Lords supper in any such Church 2. Read prayer or a set forme of prayers prescribed by men for thâ— worship of God As also mainteyning that that onely is not to be vsâ—d in the worship of God which God himself hath commaunded These are other things then onely hearing the word preached as this Proctor for excommunicates objecteth agayne and agayne in his Libell And both the Teacher and my self told him aforehand what would follow if he ioyned with the Dutch in these corruptions aforesaid Which M. Sl. himself knoweth to be true As he doth also that the other matter here intimated was about their Temples whither he was to bring the schollers to the publick worship concerning which there being then some diversity of judgement and himself affirming that he had alwayes held it lawfull to heare in those places so had before practised after he was come to this cause I said as I remember that it should not trouble my self for others I would therein perswade them the best I could But whereas we heard that the Dutch baptized all that were brought vnto them vsed also read prayer in their worship I told him also that if these things being so he should partake with theÌ„ therein that theÌ„ his case would prove such as we could not keep coÌ„munion together Yet he went on persisted and so for his receiving and mainteyning of these corruptions among them about baptisme and read prayer he was cast out of the Church By which also this mans dealing and depraving aâ—ter his maner may here be observed And for the generall of excommunicating such as being of vs have declined to the corruptioÌ„s of these Churches the Law of God requireth that all sinne and sinners be censured without respect of persons And who ever would have blamed such of the Primitive Churches as were free from the errors found in others of them at the same tyme about the resurrection from the dead fornication spirituall and bodily iustification by workes of the Law c. if any of their members declining therevnto they should have excommunicated them for this cause If the particulars noted in this Dutch Church be not errors corruptions why is not that poynt vndertaken to be cleared If they be such why should we not for them accordingly censure our members declining therevnto 3. Of the third which is about the question of Apostasie often spoken of by him who is so notable an Apostate himself I have spoken somewhat before Pag. 34. Now further the Reader is to know that while my self with some other of vs were prisoners in England there fell out question about this matter among the brethren here in these countreyes Whereof knowledge being given vnto vs from hence we wrote a letter vnto them setting downe what our judgment then was about this point the reasons perswading vs therevnto And this is that wherof he speaketh here which we wrote to the Church being absent from it Whereabout some of the brethreÌ„ from hence wrote vnto vs a while after how they were contrarie mynded and their reasons thereof Afterward it pleased God so to dispose as we were discharged out of prison and came over hither Being here there was speach and question againe about this matter And some of vs did now consider further about it more being observed out of the Scriptures about this point then at the first had ben And so began the alteration of our iudgment to be such as it is Which was a good while before ever we heard any thing concerning Mr A. So very false it is which here he writeth thereabout And for those that were cast out these things are to be observed 1. Both the poynt in generall and the case in particular was considered For the generall these questions were spoken of whether the Priests being speciall types of Christ the exception out of Ezech. 44. where they are spoken of do yet include all persons tymes offices and conditions c. Also whether even in the tyme of the Law the Levites which were not of the Priests falling to Idolatry and afterward repenting might not againe have and execute the same office function as they had before And in the New Testament whether Iohn Mark at first refused by Paul for his apostasie Act. 15.37.38 was not afterward received by the same Apostle and employed in the Ministerie of the Gospell notwithstanding Col. 4.10.11 c. For the particular it was also considered what the exceptioÌ„ was about which is spokeÌ„ of before Pag. 42. that theÌ„selves could not deny but he was a man very fit for the office in all other respects that he was already in
office and the thing before this tyme not knowen to the Church concerning him although if it had bene knowen consideration were to be had of the nature of the thing done of the condition of the person of the estate of the Church and other the like circumstances to be observed thereabout that both before and after his being in office he had well approved himself to and with the Church to the great help comfort of vs all c. 2. Yet notwithstanding they persisted and left of to participate with the Church in all his ministration therin 3. We entreated them that they would not so walk but to continew with vs as before at least till we might eyther among our selves or by others have further help and dealing about this matter but they would not Wherevpon they were for this leaving of communion with the Church together with other causes which he noteth not cast out and some of them a good while synce vpon their repentance received in againe For that which he saith of not answering the reasons in writing note these things 1. We were absent from the Church when we wrote the reasons aforesaid in a letter sent hither but now were here present with the Church to speak mouth to mouth with any that did or should make question thereabout 2. We also signified that if it were so that we were absent having like occasion as before we would then write as before we had done but being now present to speak and reason together we thought it best so to do Not to speak any thing now of the persons and their dealing that would have it otherwise 3. Yet when the matter was still vrged we further advised agreed about it of some particular circuÌ„stances or cautions to be observed therin Which were set down in writing and given to the ruling Elders for any that would come to read or reason thereabout And vpon occasion we gave the same also in writing to the Eldership of the Dutch Church here These things T. White himself knoweth and heretofore thought it sufficient to satisfy any that were reasonable howsoever now he write thereof And where he saith we would not suffer the reasons to be read in our meeting being requested there vnto sometimes in deed we did not suffer it wishing the parties that were contrary minded vnto vs to shew their reasons out of the word of God whether they were those conteyned in that writing or any other and so to reason from that ground which is the onely rule of our faith sometimes also for the more satisfying of all they were both read and reasoned of in our publik meeting As for playing Sathans part let him apply it to himself who hath heretofore both by word and writing out of the Scriptures approved our cause against the Antichristian estate of the Church of England and having now left and oppugning it yet hath not nor ever can vse as good meanes to disprove it and to approve the estate of that Church whither he is returned With whom also it is so common throughout his book to obiect against vs things very false to conceale or deprave the things he knoweth to be good and all this to calumniate the truth and vs that wiâ—nesse it before the world For that which he annexeth of Mr Ad. such as were here present do neyther remember it nor think it to be true howsoever he affirme it And if it had so bene yet who knoweth not that alteration of practise doth vsually follow alteration of judgement And if in other cases why not in this also Finally we do here know but in part are subiect to erre both in our judgment and in our walking as I deny not but in these things thus much vrged vpon vs we may have done Yet our desire hath bene and I trust shal be alway to try all things by the word of God and to keep that which is good 4. The fourth instance is of W.A. cast out for recalling a former Schisme spoken of a little before in his first instance Whatsoever W.A. now say the Church heard and see what then he spake did If he do still repent of that Schisme standing to the acknowledgemeÌ„t he made that matter is soone ended To the writing of Th. White and others about this matter this answer was given by the Elders which the messengers can testify that it being about excomunicatioÌ„ it was a matter which coÌ„cerned the whole body of the Church and therefore if they had any thing to say thereabout they should come to the Church at our publick meeting and there they should have an answer But thither came they not So themselves kept back an answer from themselves And still Th. VVhite keepeth on his course to write falselie What the schisme here spoken of was whereabout see before pag. 65. As for appealing seing it is from an inferior Iudge to a superiour we hold it Antichristian to enterteyne or admit of such appeales from one Church to another because Christ the Lord hath given like equall power authority to all his Churches on the earth Yet notwithstanding may and ought one Church to help another by any good meanes they can as there is occasion But what is this to the appealing and tryall whereof he speaketh when such as be excoÌ„municated by this Church would have their matters and the like submitted to the Dutch and French Churches here or any other els where For which themselves could not by the word of God shew any warrant And against which we had have these reasons following 1. That the Iudge which God hath ordeyned in these cases is to be submitted vnto and not to any other Deut. 17.8.9.10.11.12 2. That the highest Iudge ordeyned now of the Lord for all sinners by Ecclesiasticall censure is the Church even that particular Church whereof the sinner is a member Mat. 18.17 with 1 Cor. 5.4.5.12.13 3. That all Churches of Christ haue equall power and are not one over another but have Christ himself over all and in middest of all Rev. 1.13 2.1 And therefore in vrging our Church to submit to another Church they sought to draw it into AntichristiaÌ„ bondage which we might by no meanes yeeld vnto Gal. 5.1 Rev. 14.9.12 4. The sinne and sinner being bound in heaven how may the cause be submitted to men on earth Mat. 18.18 5. If the censures of the Church then also other doctrines of the Gospell our faith in Christ might aswell by the same ground be brought to like submission 6. It is contrary also to the Confession of our faith published Artic. 24.25 7. And this way there would be no end of strife for if the two Churches disagreed a third higher must be sought vnto by like reason and if yet they agreed not an higher then that and thus might the vsurped Supremacy of the Romish Church and Pope grow and be established 8. Finally if we might
would assent yet these Dutch French Churches do not heare any such matters but they are heard and handled onely by the Eldership by them erroneously put in place of the wholâ— Church as we have had experience vpon other occasions Now though we might not for these and like reasons submit as they required yet we also signifyed that if these Churches or Ministers or any els whosoever could shew vs by the word of God to have faulted in any thing we were willing and ready to heare them These are our reasons and this is our refusall and walking in such cases Which this White knoweth full well and therefore his sinne is the greater to write and deale notwithstanding as he doth 5. The fift instance which is about receiving the penitent offenders in cases of adultery is spoken of before pag. 32.33 To which I refer the Reader will now onely aske of him whether he would have any to reteyne vnrepentant adulterers and adulteresses and so to partake in their sinne It may be some of his Lords the Prelates can quickly take him out as bad lessons as this specially he being so apt a scholler for such Maisters Yet may not we reteyne such members in our Church And if we should what exclamations would he make against vs as in deed justly he might Here therefore mark the wickednes of this Impe of Sathan common to him with such enemies of the truth and Church If any stand from and against the Church be they never so lewd wicked he is ready to favour partake with them But if any continue with the Church though they repent of their sinnes as David he will not cease to maligne and abuse them yea to defame the whole Church therby as if it were a company of adulterers c. as before in his book hath appeared 6. The sixt instance is of his owne wife Rose White excommunicated for two things though he mention but one 1. First for not bringing her childe to baptisme 2. For falling from the truth which she had professed with vs to the corruptions of the Dutch Church here where she ioyned her self a member And the man he speaketh of her husband is himself matches one for another For the abuses which he speaketh of to give an instance was not one of them our observing of that rule Mat. 18.15.16.17 in such maner as we do For which when he had reproved the Church and was after a weeks respiâ—e called vpon for his proof he was glad openly in the Church to say he was vnprovided and came no more to our meetings to prove it at any tyme afterward Yet such is his face as he will boast of his reproving abuses amongst vs. Towching his wives alleadging of the example of Timothees mother that did not circumcise him and no other cause mentioned but that his â—ather vvas a Grecian he saith she could get no answer whereas the whole congregation then present knoweth how many things were answered about it sundry reasons vsed about this case of not bringing her child to Baptisme vpon her husbands forbidding As That the covenant of grace made with the Church in Christ was without respect of persons or sexe there being in him neyther male nor female Gal. 3.28 and therefore though the father should refuse or neglect the mother hath right and ought to present That she might not deprive her seed of the sacrament of Baptisme vpon her husbands will any more then her self of the Lords supper if he should forbid her because that by the believing womaÌ„ the children are clean as well as by the believing man 1 Cor. 7. â—4 she now being of our church her husband not we were to call vpon her for performance of her duty That baptisme was a signe of incorporating into Christ and salvation by his death and resurrection so as her neglect of baptising her child could not but be iniurious both to Christ and it When these the like perswasions were vsed vnto her and she had nothing to answer but asked why then Timothees mother did not circumcise her child our Teacher as he remembreth answered that the cause was not certainly knowen for it was not expressed in the scripture If she were living and present we would demaund of her self but she is now dead and gone wherefore it were hard for vs to determine of the cause but this Ro. White was living and present must give account of her own wayes That we must not walk by example but by law of God for even the most righteous may offend Moses himself faulted in neglecting the circumcising of his sonne Exod 4. And if Timothees mother being a Iewesse did mary with a Gentile an infidel who therefore would not suffer her to circumcise her sonne she obeyed him that such mariages were forbidden of God and vnlawfull And then she sinning in marying with him why might she not also sin in keeping her child vncircumcised for him if that were the cause as now this woman pretended Wherefore she was put in minde rather of the examples of other good women as Abigail 1 Sam. 25. the elect Lady 2 Ioh. Epist. also of some spoken of in the Machabees though that book be Apocrypha which lost their liues for causing their children to be circumâ—ised 1 Mach. 1.63 2 Mach. 6.10 It was also demaunded by some of vs how it could be shewed otherwise but that Timotheâ—s mother might be in the faith of the Gospell before he was born and he in that respect might be vncircumcised Also whether the women in Noahs tyme should have refused to enter into the Arke or the women of Israell in Moses tyme to go themselves with their childen through the red sea if their husbands had bene against it Both which were types and resemblances of our baptisme as the Scripture sheweth 1 Cor. 10.1.2 1 Pet. 3.20.21 These and the like reasons being then shewed and spoken of and now vpon this occasion thus noted downe let the Reader here consider of this mans dealing and his wives and accordingly esteem thereof as now he findeth it to be His scoffing at the Teacher of our Church not onely for his words then vsed but even at the office it self which he executeth and therein at the ordinance of Christ hurteth not him nor vs but encreaseth this skorners sinne judgement vpon his owne head For that which he saith of myself I did in deed with hold my consent towching the first cause of her excommunication about the childes baptizing making some doubt about the case aforesaid partly in respect of the husbands authority over his family partly because of the objections arising about the case Scriptures alledged out of Act. 16.3 c. Yet notwithstanding I gave my coÌ„sent as touching the second cause thereof for her falling from the truth to their corruptions here And that so as I said also I was willing for it to pronounce the