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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
reason_n	church_n	scripture_n	tradition_n	3,753	5	9.2711	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41780	Hear the church, or, An appeal to the mother of us all to all the baptized believers in England, exhorting them to stedfastness in the truth, according to the scriptures : together with some farther considerations of seven queries, sent to the baptized believers in Lincolnshire, concerning the judge of contriversies in matters of religion : in three parts / by Thomas Grantham.	Grantham, Thomas, 1634-1692.	1687 (1687)	Wing G1536; ESTC R5931	41,980	66

question be about Christ and his Church there must we find them both or no where If any Man like not this Doctrine let him shew me if he can these lovely Objects without being beholden to the Scripture Some I have known to attempt this but with lamentable success being soon driven to a shameful silence and indeed the whole World must depart into utter silence as touching this great Mystery Christ and his Church unless the Word of God as it is delivered in the Holy Scriptures through Faith makes us wise in these great Concernments of Salvation 2 Tim. 3. 14. Let men alledge all the Authors in the World and all the Tradition that ever was if the Holy Scriptures must not be their own Evidence and so capable to command our Belief of them then for the same or rather more forcible Reasons then any Man can bring against the Scriptures all Authors and all Traditions shall be dumb and useless as to the production of the least iota of Divine Faith so that the Papists at the long-run must if they know how shew us their Church without Scripture or any Author and without Tradition also as I have formerly written unto you being provoked thereunto by seven Queries sent by a Learned Papist who in his last to me does undertake to deliver himself from this difficulty after this manner We may saith he prove the Church by the Holy Scripture and the Scripture by the Church and this by a Regressus Demonstrativus without a vicious Circle because we suppose them both sufficiently proved and prudently accepted for such by all the Motives of Credibility as Miracles Holiness c. by which Christ proved himself and his New Gospel But as for the Sense of the Scripture I have more than sufficiently demonstrated that the Scripture it self cannot bear witness for it but that this must be had from a Living Judge viz. the Church the Infallible Interpreter of Gods Word To this I answer briefly That is a vicious Circle out of which no man can lawfully deliver himself but must run in a Round without end and truly such is this Circular Argumentation of my Adversary he will prove his Church by the Scripture 2. He will prove the Scripture to be true by his Church and he will prove his Church true by the Scripture before the Scripture be proved true and he will prove the Scripture to be true after it hath proved his Church true This Meander is no way to be avoided that I can see but by suffering either the Scripture or the Church to be its own Evidence for his Demonstrative Regress makes his Case worse for by it they be both sufficiently proved before either of them be proved and both prudently accepted before either of them be accepted and which is most strange of all the rest these things are all done before the Scripture hath any sense known for of this he is the most of all confident that the Sense of the Scripture must be had from a living Judge viz. the Church the Infallible Interpreter of God's Word So that this is the Conclusion of the whole Matter The Scripture without Sense must prove the Roman Church and the Roman Church must then give the Sense of that Scripture which had no Sense before when it proved Her to be the Church here is indeed a Regressus but no such thing as a Demonstrativus Methinks wise men should consider that the Holy Scripture is its own Interpreter in a great if not the greatest part of it the New Testament being the best Interpreter of the Old Testament and of it self also in many places for Example It tells us in one place that the Heavens must receive Christ from the time of his Ascension till the times of refreshing shall come from the Presence of the Lord. Act. 3. 21. And hence we hold that no Christian must say that the real Body of of Christ which ascended to Heaven is upon the Earth till he shall be sent the second time for God shall send Jesus saith St. Peter because the Scripture tells us in another place That if Jesus were on Earth he should not be a Priest Heb. 8. 4. It is therefore as plain as plain can be that the Papists make void the Priesthood of Christ and contradict St. Peter himself when they tell the World that the real Body of Christ which ascended into Heaven is now really carnally corporally present upon the Earth that is upon their Altars and in the Hands and Mouths of their Priests and People as often as they celebrate Mass and consequently he is so far from being received into Heaven till the time of his second coming that he is according to their own Opinion received bodily upon Earth ten thousand times and in ten thousand places to his being once received bodily into Heaven Sure their Opinion is directly against the Scripture as sure as their Transubstantiation is directly against the best Sense and the best Reason with which Almighty God hath endowed the best of Men as has been clearly evidenced by many learned Discourses among which I would commend to your Perusal one lately published under the Title of A Discourse against Transubstantiation Printed this Year and sold by Mr. Aylmer at the Three Pigeons against the Royal Exchange Price Six Pence My Learned Adversary and indeed the Papists generally do urge us vehemently after this manner admitting that the Church is to follow the Rule of God's revealed Word in all her Definitions yet they hold it extreamly irrational that all that can read it should be his own Interpreter of it for so say they He will be his own Judge And as in a Nation where no Judge of the Law is appointed there can be no Justice but every man will be his own Judge so likewise unless there be a Supream Judge in Matters of Faith to wit the Church from whom no Appeal may be allowed there can be no end of Controversies c. This Objection is considerable to which I say 1. What my Adversary means by God's revealed Word I do not very well understand but I doubt he extends that Term farther than the Holy Scripture else I am sure enough the Church of Rome has no revealed Word of God to follow in very many of her Observations but to let this pass at present I answer to the Objection thus 2. It seems to be built upon many dangerous Suppositions such as these That we ought to rest upon the Sentence of a Priest for we must hear the Church out of his Mouth for the state of our Soul as on the Sentence of a Judge in a Civil Court for a matter of Debt c. and that we are no more bound to search the Scriptures for Eternal Life than to search the Statute-Book for our Temporal Life nay here I do them no wrong for they will permit us to read the Statute-Book but they forbid us to read the Holy Scripture It supposes

it self These were such things as seemed good to the Holy Ghost not that the Holy Ghost now revealed them but brought to remembrance what the Scriptures had said concerning them and partly by what before that time had been shewed unto St. Peter by a certain Vision of God's accepting the Gentiles though not cleansed according to Legal Purification And therefore till the Holy Ghost reverse those Decrees they are to oblige all Churches to keep them inviolable And in this point as indeed in all the rest the Baptized Churches in this Age do stand a witness against the disorder and disobedience of most of the Christian Nations in the World who make no Conscience of abstaining from Blood c. though they know the true Churches did Religiously observe these Decrees for several hundreds of years after Tertullian tells us The custom of Christians is to abstain from all Blood and things Strangled so that it is not lawful for them when they feed at their Tables to meddle with the Blood of any Beast It is further safely concluded from hence that all decrees of General Councils are so far obliging only as the things decreed are proved to be true and not because they are decreed in Council only for here St. Peter proves that Churches are free from the obligation of Legal Ceremonies because they wear a Burthen too heavy to be born 2. Because God had accepted them already without them And James the Angel of this Church proves or confirms the same by the Scriptures and these Arguments and Probations satisfied the Assembly And it 's certain the things prohibited by these decrees were always forbidden even to Noah and his perpetual Generations Gen. 9. 12 c. Nor does this Assembly excommunicate or anathematize all that shall doubt of the Necessity of their Determination but very sweetly tells the Brethren they shall do well to comply with their advice for they knew that every Church had Power to punish offenders and to them they seem to leave that Care and not to take the Power of any Church out of their Hands as the manner of some is Of the Case of Infants or whether they were admitted to Baptism in the Mother-Church In all that is said of the Plantation and growth of this famous Church or in that excellent Epistle which was a long time after written to them there is not one Word to be found of any one Infant being brought to Baptism and therefore we hold to the Negative of this Question and it is observable that though here Infant-Circumcision was absolutely excluded yet is there no Argument urged for it from their Baptism which had been very considerable had there been any such usage in this or the Gentile Churches And because it is granted now by many and these the most Learned too among whom the Papists that there is no Scripture for Infant-Baptism c. But that it stands upon the Authority of Ecclesiastical Tradition all that we shall say to that Plea in this place is to desire any Man to shew who delivered this thing to the Churches and by what Authority whether divine or human For seeing Tradition signifies a thing delivered it is fit the Person or Persons delivering such a thing should be known to be Persons lawfully impowered to deliver such a Tradition before we can with safety receive it But how then shall Infants be saved if Baptism belong not to them I answer out of the mouth of St. Peter Verse 11. By the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ they shall be saved And sure a man might as well ask how can Infants be saved without Faith and Repentance seeing it is said he that believeth not shall be damned and except ye repent ye shall all perish c. And what answer could any wise man make save this the grace of God sufficeth them having Christ's express word for it that to them belongs the Kingdom of Heaven and this he spake to unbaptized Infants too which is therefore so satisfactory that we need no other evidence If any man say the words which St. Peter spake in Council Acts 15. 11. are not meant of Infants and therefore not pertinent to my purpose I shall only desire him to consider that those words were spoken in opposition to this position That without Circumcision after the manner of Moses the Gentiles could not be saved Now we know it was after the manner of Moses to Circumcise Infants and therefore doubtless these false Teachers did question the salvation of Infants dying without Circumcision Therefore these words of St. Peter which teaches that by the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ both Jew and Gentile shall be saved have their clear extent to Infants as well as to any other persons whatsoever I shall here only refer the Reader to what we have farther written in a Treatise upon this Subject entituled The Controversie about Infant-Church-Member-ship and Baptism epitomized Of the Reverence due to Saints Angels and to the Blessed Virgin in particular according to the usage of this Mother-Church It was in this Church where the Holy Virgin Mother of our Lord had her Conversation and Society being with that select Company consisting of an hundred and twenty names Acts 1. 15. among whom this most blessed Woman is expresly named and by whose Presence this Mother-Church was honoured above all others And here is the last mention that is made of her in the holy Scriptures And this honourable mention of her by name and as the Mother of our Lord which doubtless calls for great Reverence in the hearts of all God's People is all the honour that the Word of God does here confer upon her This Church makes no Prayers to her nor to Christ in her name nor taught the succeeding Churches to do so yet surely she was the greatest Saint that ever was and if we have no ground from any direction nor President in the Scripture to perform such Devotion to Her we cannot with any shew of Reason or pretence of Truth do it to any other Creatrue Saint or Angel whatsoever And it is remarkable that though this Church had occasion to make express mention of David in their Prayers Acts 4. 25. yet do they not use his Intercession at all But this Honour they give to Jesus Christ that through his Name such things might be done as might confirm the Truth against all Opposers Nor does the Holy Ghost give any notice of the Worshipping of Angels Saints nor the Holy Virgin in particular in that Sacred Epistle which was sent to this Church after the death of Blessed Mary the Mother of Jesus so that this Mother-Church seems altogether unacquainted with such Devotions And much more may we assure our selves they paid no such Devotion to the Images of these or of any of them If any affirm the contrary we answer them in the words of Jerom Non Credimus quia non Legimus And with Apollinarius we dare add nothing to

who is his Church we shall never find her nor does he reveal this but by the Testimonies of the Scripture there must we find the Church of God or no where For none but Enthusiasts pretend to any other Revelation in this Case and to speak feeely I doubt the Papists are more then a little Enthusiastical for rather than let God's Word decide this Question about the Church they will flye to Miracles as if a false Prophet may not shew a Sign or a Wonder yea and that Sign and Wonder come to pass too and yet the thing he brings it to prove be nothing but a lye see Deut. 15. Surely he that shall pretend to work a Miracle or Wonder in these days to prove such or such a People to be the Church I should the more suspect both him and his Church because we have a sure Word of Prophecy confirmed by Miracles already which Word doth as fully set forth the Church as it sets forth any thing insomuch as men may as well call for Miracles to prove there is a God and that this God is true as to call for Miracles to prove the true Church Indeed the Church of Christ being once found then all wise and modest men will readily lend an Ear to her in all things and especially when she undertakes to expound the dark or mysterious points of our Religion or offers her Judgment in things doubtful for as for the common point of the Christian Faith he that is a wise and good Man and no ways byassed by Interest may perhaps know these things as well as the Church or at least such as call themselves Church-men But to be bound to adhere to any Church in these days as to a people which cannot possibly be mistaken in any matters of Faith or Religion seems to be an Atribute too high for any Society of Sinful men and there is none that liveth and sinneth not For seeing God hath not told us any such thing That the Church cannot Err or be Mistaken it ought not to be spoken and if it be only proper to the Almighty to say He cannot lye It must not be said of the Church that She cannot lye lest he reprove us and we be found Lyars Rom. 3. 4. Let God be true and every Man a lyar for thus it is written and again Hos 11. 12. Ephraim compasseth me about with Lyes and the House of Israel with Deceit This was the Case of the ten Tribes and though Judah be justified as to these Impieties yet Chap. 12. 2. God tells them he had a Controversie with them also Certain it is that famous Churches have erred in matters of Faith and others were as liable to err as they no Church being herein priviledged above another for any thing that God has said in his Word but he every where exhorts his People to beware of Sin Error and Apostacy and commands every one that hath Ears to hear what the Spirit saith to the Churches but he does not say to any of them that they cannot Err therefore we are not to hear such a story of any Church Mat. 16. 18. Is a gracious Promise indeed That the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church of Christ as founded upon himself in the true Faith of St. Peter But this Promise belongs to all true Churches equally yet no man ever durst affirm from hence That no true Church can possibly err And St. Peter who understood this Promise never told any Church of his Planting that they could not Err but rather tells them they may err so as to fall from their stedfastness and be led away with the error of the Wicked Indeed if any Church could be assigned here on Earth that cannot err or be deceived in matters of Faith it were the easiest thing in the World to find the Truth having once found the Church for we should have no need to know any thing but what that Church speaks and to receive her Determinations as God's Oracles but then I consider again that we should perhaps have great inconvenience also For if all the Decrees made by General Councils be obliging to us and were bound up together we should never be able to read them nor I doubt to understand them it will then be our best at the long-run to take Sanctuary at the Word of God as our Guide and Superiour to the Church But I consider farther that no man makes any particular Church this Guide but does refer us to the Universal Church as assembled in a General Council Surely either this is to make as many Universal Churches at least as there has been Ages since Christ was upon the Earth or if all make but one Universal Church the direction given to follow her Sentence is scarce practicable for how long will it be before a man can be assured what was held and what was rejected by the Church in all Ages indeed there are Men born of great confidence who will tell us that the Catholick or Universal Church hath always held such Doctrines and such Traditiors as are unwritten c. Now it highly concerns all Christians as much as in them lieth to make sure work with such bold Talkers about the truth of the things which they affirm especially about the truth of the Antiquity of these things that is that they appear by some Divine Record to have been delivered to the first Churches by Men approved of God to be the deliverers of Divine Institutes and if they fail here it will be ill venturing to follow them in their after-enquiries And there is the highest Reason in the World to stand as strongly as possible for the first Age for such pure and undoubted Antiquity is necessary in our Case from the tenour of our Blessed Saviour's Argumentation against the Jews in opposition to a Tradition or Mosaical Precept in the Case of Divorce Mat. 19. 8. From the beginning it was not so For seeing the Apostles did faithfully deliver the whole Counsel of God to the first Churches condemning all that shall teach otherwise than they had taught the the Doctrine of Godliness or that should not consent to wholesome words even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ it is therefore necessary to bring all Doctrine and Practices in the Christian Church to the Test of the most pure and Primitive Antiquity for that Church which hath that Argument fairly on her side cannot fail of all other Arguments which can be any way necessary for her Justification for indeed this first Argument does infer all the rest and they that have not this have none of the other which thing being well considered look back upon your Principles O ye Baptized Christians and upon what hath been said for them even by your Adversaries and take comfort for whoever boasts of the best Antiquity it is certain that you only have it For what is the most ancient Record Doubtless the Holy Scripture and if so let the