Assembly and might so do without exception And that they have been often called upon to use this medium for their particular way as was said before and would doubtlesse have made use of it if they could have made it out That their way was thus instituted which yet they never went about to prove 5. And to conclude If this were so advantageous a ground for their Arguments as they seem here to make it we have the more reason to beleeve that it was not meerly a willingnesse to make known what ever they hâ—ld which was the cause of their contending for this question but rather some advantage they hoped to make of it X. As to That other next great question as they call is about the intire power of Congregations that have a sufficient Prebytery for all Consâ—â—râ—s which say they as it is the first in order that presents it self for discussion so also it is one of the greatest points in difference between us We Answer 1. It is indeed one of the greatest points in difference But secondly That it must necessarily have the first place in our discussions we deny Our Brethren know the method of the Assembly in these debates about Church Government was this We began with Christ the Head the great King Priest and Prophet of his Church as was intimated before From him we proceeded to inquite of Officers set by him in his Church extraordinary and ordinary then of the power of thâ—se Officers after that of the subject about which this power was exercised First The general Church visible to which the Officers Oracles and Ordinances of the New Testament were given by Christ for the Edification thereof Secondly Particular visible Churches Members of that general Church This though we do not contend to be the onely method yet it was that which the Assembly judged fittest to proceed in And we know not that our Brethren have just reason to except against it but that the Assembly might thus proceed And what Reasons have been alleaged by themselves or others for it pleased them to intimate that some others were of their Opinion in this point of the order of our Disputes why in some particular question the Assembly should decline this Method were either hearkned to or answered XI And whereas it is said to be expresly commended by the Grand Committee of thâ— Honourable Members of both Houses We Answer 1. We do not know that the said Grand Committee did at any time recommend it to the Assembly to debate The entire power of particular Congregations which have a sufficient Presbytery for all Censures as our Brethren here assert 2. But we acknowledge that the said Honorable Committee did recommend same other questions far otherwise stated of which the Assembly returned such Answer as for ought we know to the contrary they were satisfied with as may appear by the Order of the said Committee and the Assemblies Answer to it which so sâ—â— as they concern the present businesse we have thought fit here to insert August 19. 1644. At the Committee of Lords and Comment Assembly of Divines and Commissioners for the Church of Scotland resolved 1. That the Assembly be desired to return to the debate about Church-Government as sâ—â—n as they have done with Ordination 2. That they then take into their debate the businesse of Excommunication and therein â—â— discusse these three questions in order 1. Whether there be such an Ordinance as Excommunnication and what it is 2. Whether particular Congregations may Excommunicate 3. Whether Classical Presbyteries and greater Assemblies may Excommunicate After which the Assembly received from the said Committee another Order as followeth At a Committee of Lords and Commons and Assembly of Divines appointed 〈…〉 with the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland October 11. 1644. Resolved c. That whereas about two moneths since this Committee did among other particularâ— which they recommended to the Assembly of Divines desire of them That when they did return unto the debate of Church-Government they would then discusse the matter of Excommunication and therein to debate these three particulars in this Method and Order 1. Whether there be such an Ordinance as Excommunication and what it is 2. Whether particular Congregations may exercise it 3. Whether Classical Presbyteries and Synods may exercise it The Assembly be intreated to return in writing what they have done in the said particulars and that this Committee may receive an Answer at their next meeting on Tuesday next To which Order the Assembly did accordingly return an Answer as was desired which after an accompt of what was done in Reference to the three first Requests of the former Order was as followeth Upon September 4. the Assembly having finished the businesse of Ordination c. The Report of the Grand Committee was desired to be taken into consideration again and in the debate thereof according to the fourth desire of the Committee it was ordered That the Assembly should return to the debate about Government It was farther debated whether the Assembly should proceed according to the Method of the Grand Committee expressed in the fifth and last desire This was moved by some of the Members of the Assembly others moved to proceed upon the Report of the first Committee concerning some additional proofs for the Presbytery over more Congregations then one Others moved to consider of the Report of the Committee for the summary in case the Assembly did not think fit to proceed in the Method of the Grand Committee Others moved next to consider of the several sorts of Assemblies for Government and their subordination This last was urged by the Commissioners of Scotland partly that so the Assembly might hold out what Government they would advise the Parliament unto which would be of great use for the perfecting the Propositions agreed upon by both Kingdoms and partly because it was agreeable to the course of the Assembly to debate those things first wherein the Assembly would be most uninamous After a large debate it was Resolved that this shall be next debated That it is agreeable to the Word of God that the Church be Governed by several sorts of Assemblies The Assembly accordingly proceeded in that debate and having concluded of the several sorts of Assemblies and the Members of them were entring upon the Consideration of the subordination of them and the power that they have in common When it was upon the 23 of September moved to consider what to do with Excommunication whether to refer it to a new Committee or to the second Committee to perfect the businesse of Excommunication which was formerly committed to them Whereupon it was Ordered That the second Committee shall perfect their Report concerning Excommunication with all convenient speed The second Committee met accordingly and upon the eight of October made their Report in which Session the Assembly finished the last Proposition that they had in debate about the power of Assemblies in Common
THE ANSVVER Of the ASSEMBLY of DIVINES By Authority of PARLIAMENT Now sitting at WESTMINSTER Unto the Reasons given in to this ASSEMBLY BY THE Dissenting Brethren Of their not bringing in a MODEL of their WAY And since Published in Print under the Title of A Copy of a Remonstrance Which Answer was humbly presented to the Right Honorable the House of PEERS Assembled in Parliament ORdered by the Lords in Parliament assembled That this Answer be forthwith Printed and Published Joh. Brown Cler. Parliamentorum London Printed by John Field for Ralph Smith and are to be sold at the Signe of the Bible neer the Royal Exchange 1645. The ANSWER of the Assembly of DIVINES by Authority of PARLIAMENT now fitting at Westminster unto the REASONS given in to this Assembly by the Dissenting Brethren of their not bringing in a MODEL of their Way VVHereas the Brethren who Dissent from this Assembly in some particulars of Church Government did upon Octob. 22. 1645. instead of the long desired and much expected Model of Church-Government to be communicated to us by them give in to the Assembly a Paper containing some seeming Reasons why they declined the bringing in of such a Model at this time which since hath been divulged in Print under the Title of A Copy of a Remonstrance c. We have been put upon this necessary Vindicating of our Selves from those unjust Mis-representations and Mis constructions of our Proceedings under which we must otherwise undeservedly have suffered if this Remonstrance should altogether go unanswered The Designe of the Brethrens Paper is to beget an Opinion of their Willingnesse and Forwardnesse to make known what ever they hold in Church-Government and to give an account what the Reasons are Why they have not given in a Model of Church-Government according to their Judgements I. Of their Willingnesse to make known what ever they hold concerning Church-Government even since the beginning of the Discussions they say they have had publike Testimony in this Assembly and have given manifest Proofs and Evidences of it This publike Testimony we suppose is but the Testimony of some few single persons in the Assembly and not as some might be induced to beleeve the Testimony of the Assembly such we are sure they have not had And we doubt whether even such single Testimony have been given as that they were so forward and willing to make known what ever they held in Church-Government Now if the Testimony of single persons because given in a publike way may be called a publike Testimony we doubt not but we can produce more publike Testimonies of their Vnwillingnesse not onely from the beginning of this Assembly but before to declare what they hold in Church-Government then they can of the contrary Our Reverend Brother Master Dury in a Letter from the Hague March 7. 1643. Stilo veteri now published in Print gives them this Testimony that He had required from them but never could obtain to know the true point of difference betwixt them and the other Reformed Churches Besides the Brethren know that there are many Reverend Ministers of the City of London and some Members of this Assembly that must give them this Testimony That whereas there was long before the sitting of this Assembly an agreement between some of these Brethren and sundry Ministers of the City That the Brethren should give in to them a Narrative of their way of Church-Government that agreement was never yet performed but on the contrary the Paper that was the Record thereof was upon some pretence privately withdrawn by one of them out of the hands in which it was deposited and was never to this day restored though often demanded 〈◊〉 the Narrative exhibited though often desired Nay and themselves have given a publike Testimony of no great Willingnesse and Forwardnesse to make known what ever they hold concerning Church Government even since the beginning of the discussions in this Assembly in that Apologetical Narration by them published Which how far it is from making known what ever they hold concerning Church-Government we leave to themselves to judge And when upon occasion of this Apologetical Narration Master Apollonius being appointed by the Classis of Walacbria to set down the judgement of those Churches concerning the Controversies now agitated in England Sent to them an expresse Letter desiring them to inform him what their Opinion was in those Points that he might not mistake thâ—m he could not yet obtain it from them as himself hath complained and themselves well know II. Yet as a proof of their pretended Willingness they tell us of their constant free and open expressing of themselves upon all occasions and in all questions propounded to the debate These are but words we could as easily and might more truely say they have been inconstant obscure reserved in expressing themselves as they can say they have been constant free and open And whereas they say They have done thou in all questions and upon all occasions we desire them to ask their own hearts Whether they did ever clearly and openly expresse themselves what they unanimously hold in the great question of Gathering Churches or in the question of the Power of the People or in that of the qualification of Church Members or Whether they did ever clearly and directly endeavour to prove that way of Church-Government which they practise to be the onely way Jure divino Though they know they have been often urged to it upon several occasions and fair opportunities put into their hands as in their Debates and Reasons against Presbyterial Government and against Appeals besides many others And particularly March 21 1644. it was earnestly pressed upon them by many in the Assembly That they would bring in what they thought farther needful for the Reformation of our Congregations and what they would desire in reference to their own And the question was formed up in those terms and a Vote ready to be passed upon it had not they themselves then who had been silent in it so long as any objections were made against it by others so vehemently opposed it when we saw the Assembly ready to order it which we conceive they would not have done had they been so willing as they would now he thought freely and openly to expresse themselves upon all occasions and to make known whatever they hold in Church-Government III. As a further evidence of this their Willingnesse they further instance their offers to give an open accompt at any time in whatever should be asked by any Brother We confesse these Expressions are large and high An open account At any time In what ever By any Brother We beleeve our Brethren upon second Thoughts must abâ—te somewhat of these large Expressions and that at least some of them never made such in offer But if there were such offers and those really intended by all of them How is it then That at this time when All the Brethren of this Assembly have
onely desire the Parliament to give us leave to revise our Votes but to revoke them if there should because And when it was moved by some in the Assembly to adde a proviso that they being not in any thing which hath been already determined in the Assembly it was gain said by others moving that there might be no such restriction but that they be left to bring in what they would so that they brought it in with their Grounds and Reasons and accordingly the questionâ— drawn up March 21 and the Resolved April 4 were without any such restriction But this reasonable satisfaction was not we suppose the ground why they yeelded to be a Committee That which over-ruled the case was That they might take away all jealousies that they were unwilling to discover what they held which whether they can do or no by the carriage of this businesse time will give them to understand XVIII Well however purposed they were and Resolved among themselves to do this work but to do it in as convenient a time as a work of such a compasse could in such a manner aâ— was purposed by us be dispatched by them It seems then the manner purposed by us that they should bring in the Model intire and not part by part was it that troubled them Indeed it was contended for with some earnestnesse That they might bring it in part by part as the Presbyterian Government was brought into the Assembly And one of the Brethren was so earnest in this contest as that he did professedly disclaim having any hand in it unlesse it might be brought in part by part For our parts we counted it our unhappinesse and found it to be greatly to our prejudice that we were necessitated to bring in the Presbyterial Government part by part but our Brethren know it could not be avoided for the Assembly being by the Ordinance whereby they sit bound to treat onely of such matters as shall from time to time be propounded to them by both or either of the Houses of Parliament and no others could not appoint Committees to consult and make preparations for matters of Church-Government till they had received an Order from the Honourable House to that purpose And having received this Order they stood obliged now to lay by the Articles of Religion in the review whereof they had hitherto spent their time and to fall upon the consideration of Church-Government which being now by Ordinance of Parliament put into the hands of the Assembly and made the subject of our debates the Committees could not have time to perfect the whole platform but must bring it in by parts as they could dispatch them least the Assembly should have no work at all before them but if the Assembly had thought fit to have chosen seven men and made them a Committee to bring in a Platform or Model of Government according to their own judgements without respect to the judgement of other Bretheren and left them to their own time as these Brethren were left and priviledged them from other services and attendance in the Assembly and Committees as some of these Brethren have taken themselves to be we doubt not through the Grace of God but they would have brought in a Model of Government perfect and intire in fewer moneths then we have waited for theirs As for the Assemblies bringing in of the Government per partes was by constraint but our brethren made it a matter of choice and contest what the designe of this should be we know not unlesse to gain time and conceal themselves still and detain us yet longer in expectation and suspence they having the more opportunity thereby to expresse themselves in what they please and in what they please to be still reserved XIX It likewise seems to greive them that the Assembly though pressed by them would not declare what they would do with that Model and those Reasons they should bring But let the Brethren consider whether they did then positively and expresly declare Whether they would bring in such a Model though pressed to it by the Assembly and if they would not declare the one why should the Assembly declare the other And the Brethren know it is not the custome of the Assembly to tell Committees before-hand what they will do with their Report when they bring it in but when a Report is brought in then they consider what to do with it when they see what it is Moreover the Brethren need not doubt but the Assembly would at least have made as much use of this as they were by one of these Brethren advised to make of the Paper of this nature given in by the Commissioners of Scotland XX. But the Assembly say they hastened the voting of what yet remained in Church Government and when not long after upon occasion of debate of one particular point wherein they differed from the Assembly they moved it might be dèferred because they should present their Iudgements and Reasons about it with the rest It was publikely answered that therefore the Assembly should the rather go on to the concluding of it because they intended to bring it in and accordingly the Assembly sent up to the Honourable Houses as well what had been sent up by peâ—câ—â— before as what was since concluded in one intire Frame For the hastning of the Votes and the sending up our advice for Government in an intire Frame The Brethren know the Reason of it but they are pleased to conceal it The Honourable Houses had sent several Messages and Orders to this Assembly requiring them to hasten the dispatch of their advice concerning Church-Government and to send it up intire Which Messages and Orders of the Houses we are bound to obey by that Ordinance whereby we sit and it is not free for us to detain our Votes when both or either of the Houses call for them Our Brethren therefore deal hardly with us when they impute that to us as a fault which was our duty As for the particular which they say they desired might be deserred We know not what it was they mean nor when debated if they had instanced in the particular we could more clearly have Answered to the Charge But if there were such a motion made by them and if any Brother should Answer that their Model being to come in and like to hold the Assembly in long debate we should therefore make the more haste to dispatch what was before us that so we might be the more ready to receive what they should give in though the Assembly be not bound to give an account of the particular Speeches of every Member yet we conceive there might be some Reason why a man might so speak especially considering that they were not limited but left to their own time for bringing in their Model for there was no day set from the fourth of April when they were first made a Committee till September 22 and then onely That about a
fortnight after they should make a Report of what they bad done nor had they all this time declared that they would bring in a Model But it seems they were resolved to take time large enough for they tell us XXI That the Collection of materials cost them two or three moneths Strange Have the Brethren decryed the Government of all other Churches these many yeers and ingaged themselves in a new way of Church-gathering and governing And when they are called upon for the proof of that way their materials are to seek have they told the world in their Apologetical Narration That they have searched out what were the first Apostolike directions patern and example of those primitive Churches Recorâ—ed in the New Testament And in this inquiry looked upon the Word of Christ impartially and imprejudicedly as men made of flesh and blood are like to do in any juncture of time that may fall out Do they spend almost three whole Pages of the Apology in setting out the advantages they had in their inquiry above all other that were before either in this or other Reformed Churches yea or in New England Do they professe Page 9 10. That in the primitive patern and example of the Churches erected by the Apostles they found principles enough not onely Fundamental and Essential to the being of a Church but superstructory also for the welbeing of it and these to them clear and certain c. And are their materials still to collect and must no lesse then two or three moneths be spent in the Collection of them But grant it so they have had not onely two but six moneths time for the preparing of their Model Why is it not yet brought in XXII They Answer the Assembly hath ten moneths since received this Dissent and Reasons against the Subordination of Synods which contains a main part of that wherein they differ and is of all other of the greatest moment both to this Church and State yet notwithstanding these Reasons have not been Answered by any Reply brought into this Assembly and so not ready to be sent up to the Honourable Houses although the Votes concerning Subordination were sent up by which we see say they that this Assembly can assume the liberty if it so pleasâ— to reserve those we shall present unanswered as they have done the former We grant that about ten moneths since These Brethren brought in a Paper containing Reasons of their Dissent against the Subordination of Synods which we presently committed to the same Committee that had drawn up the Answer to the former Reasons We grant that as long since our Votes concerning Subordination were sent up to the Houses for these Votes having been passed in the Assembly long before and no Dissent to them entred when upon occasion of the Treaty at Uxbridge which though it was not then begun was in preparation it pleased the Parliament to require us to send up to them what had passed the Assembly in Church-Government and the Assembly thereupon appointed a Committee to draw up the whole which had passed in the Assembly into a method fit to be presented to the Parliament and the Report of the Committee considered by the Assembly and the whole Voted to be sent up to both Houses Our Brethren then entred their Dissents to some particular Propositions of it and desired that the sending up of the whole might be respited till they had brought in the Reasons of that their Dissent which because the Assembly could not assent unto because of the Order of Parliament calling for them in reference to their preparation to the Treaty These Votes together with the rest were sent up to the Parliament before the Reasons of their Dissent were brought into the Assembly and the Subordination of Synods soon after Voted in both Houses of Parliament and sent afterwards among other Propositions to the Treaty at Uxbridge which made us not over solicitous of dispatching our Answer to their Reasons in all the Formalities because these Reasons and Answers are not to be sent up till called for by the Parliament And we conceived it not very probable that the Houses would call for Reasons against their own Votes yet thirdly the Committee had prepared their Answer to these Reasons in lesse time then the Brethren say they were put to the expence of Collecting of the materials for their way for in Janu. last about twelve Sheets of an Answer to these Reasons against the Subordination of Synods were read and approved in a Grand Committee of the whole Assembly these Dissenters onely excepted and wanted but the formality of the Assemblies Vote and since another part of our Answer to their Reasons of Dissent to another Proposition were read and approved in the Assembly Our Brethren therefore need not to have vaunted themselves as if their Papers were such as the Assembly could not or would not grapple with but can assume liberty if they please to reserve unanswered What remains of this Paper rather reflects upon the Parliament then upon us XXIII If what they would now bring in should be undertaken to be answered by the Assembly yet they are sensible of so much remedilesse prejudice by being bound from replying again as makes them justly wary And surely if what they should now give in be in their own power as afterwards they say it is Although our former Reasons given in former Disputes to both Houses â—â—â—â—rding to their Ordinance were therefore not our own but to be disposed of by their appoinment yet what we might now give in we conceive to be in our own power If this can be made good that it is in their own power viz. In their power to Reply then is their fear of being prejudiced by being bound up from replying but pretended But if there be indeed any such Restraint it is from the Honourable Houses not from us whose Wisdom and Piety we doubt not will provide that controversies shall not be lengthened to eternity whatsoever some have threatned nor doth it stand with reason and equity that they who are first heard in their own cause should speak last also If by being in their own power they mean in their own power to divulge or to publish as it seems by the publishing of what they now gave in that they thought so indeed But to this we Answer that there is no greater obligation on them in this kinde then is on the whole Assembly and they have no Reason to complain of that to us XXIV For a conclusion the Brethren say they think the Assembly hath no cause to require a report now of them nor will that report be of use because reports are for debates and bebates for results to be sent up to the Honourable Houses who have already voted another Form of Government then what they shall pâ—â—sent To which we Answer the Assembly hath still great and just cause to expect a report from these Brethren Those of their way having published in Print that these Brethren are willing to do it The Assembly having Ordered it the Brethren having held the Assembly six moneths in expectation of it Some of them pleading this very â—â—ployment as an excuse of there absence from the Assembly it having been reported in City and Country that the Model was finished there being no just and satisfaâ—â—â—ry reason presented in those Papers why they should not yet do it but only pretences subterfugies imperfect and unjust Relations of the proceedings of the Assembly and other specious diversions But whereas they say that such a Model would be of â—â— use now we Answer yes of much use in this great businesse of Accommodation which iâ— hath pleased the Honorable Houses again to put us upon Vpon which consideratioâ—â— we think not That the Brethren have no cause to decline the bringing in their Model â—â— this time but that they have some other cause then what they pretend to and thâ—â— something lies behinde the curtain which doth not yet appear possibly not any one of them is yet at a point in his own judgement nor resolved where to fiâ— they having professed to keep as a reserve liberty to alter and retract which if their Model were given in they could not so fairly and honourably do Or possibly they are not all fixed in â—â—â— and the same point Possibly they cannot agree among themselves for it is easier to agree in dissenting then in affirming or possibly if they seven can agree yet some other of their Brethren in the City to whom it may be the Model was communicated did â—â—â— like it or if so yet possibly the Brethren might foresee that if this Model should be published there are some who at present are a strength to them and expect shelter froâ— them may disgust it or at least they are resolved to waite a further opportunity â—â— improve what they have prepared it may be when the Assembly is dissolved and so â—â—â— in a capacity to Answer them or when the Presbyterian Government begins to be sâ—â—â—p when they promise to themselves there will be discontent among the people and loâ—t upon that it may be as the most advantageous time of putting Pen to Paper But whatsoever the cause be we commit our cause to the Lord who loves truth and simplicity and will we doubt not discover it in due time Cornelius Burges Prolocutor pro tempore Adoniram Byfield Scriba FINIS