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reason_n church_n member_n visible_a 3,184 5 9.3025 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A96167 An answer to W.R. his narration of the opinions and practises of the churches lately erected in Nevv-England. Vindicating those Godly and orthodoxall churches, from more then an hundred imputations fathered on them and their church way, by the said W.R. in his booke. Wherein is plainely proved, 1. That the grounds of his narration are sandie and insufficient. 2. That the maner of his handling it, unloving and irregular. 3. That the matter of it, ful of grosse mistakes & divers contradictions. 4. That the quotations extremely wrested, and out of measure abused. 5. That his marginall notes impertinent and injurious. / By Thomas Welde, Pastour of the Church of Roxborough in Nevv-England. This is licensed and entred according to order. Weld, Thomas, 1590?-1662. 1644 (1644) Wing W1262; Thomason E3_18; ESTC R2769 70,175 76

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their_o covenant_n and_o he_o say_v they_o must_v enter_v in_o afresh_o as_o if_o they_o have_v never_o yet_o be_v receive_v at_o all_o this_o we_o must_v tell_v he_o be_v not_o fair_a deal_n and_o what_o will_v now_o become_v of_o his_o marginal_a note_n upon_o the_o article_n so_o mistake_v many_o other_o collection_n beside_o what_o we_o have_v answer_v to_o already_o he_o make_v in_o his_o marginal_a note_n on_o this_o chapter_n by_o way_n of_o objection_n against_o we_o which_o deserve_v a_o little_a answer_v as_o in_o his_o margin_n to_o article_n 2._o a_o strange_a yet_o bold_a assertion_n say_v he_o speak_v without_o good_a show_n of_o reason_n but_o what_o be_v this_o bold_a assertion_n that_o job_n and_o melchisedec_n be_v no_o member_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n i_o entreat_v the_o reader_n to_o see_v if_o his_o author_n quote_v for_o these_o word_n answ_n will_v bear_v he_o out_o in_o these_o bold_a accusation_n of_o we_o or_o no_o all_o that_o ans_fw-fr to_o 34_o 37._o say_v be_v this_o we_o make_v no_o question_n of_o the_o salvation_n of_o job_n and_o his_o friend_n yet_o it_o be_v a_o great_a question_n whether_o they_o be_v of_o any_o visible_a church_n or_o no_o and_o give_v his_o reason_n see_v the_o visible_a church_n in_o those_o time_n seem_v to_o be_v appropriate_v to_o the_o posterity_n of_o abraham_n etc._n etc._n of_o who_o line_n it_o can_v easy_o be_v prove_v that_o all_o these_o man_n do_v come_v and_o all_o the_o other_o cite_v author_n cn_n to_o 9_o pos_fw-la 66._o say_v be_v this_o we_o no_o where_n read_v there_o be_v this_o reason_n that_o milchisedec_n job_n and_o his_o four_o friend_n be_v circumcise_v neither_o do_v we_o believe_v they_o be_v now_o see_v whether_o 1_o we_o say_v and_o conclude_v that_o these_o holy_a man_n be_v in_o no_o church_n 2._o if_o we_o bold_o assert_v it_o 3._o without_o good_a show_n of_o reason_n 4._o if_o there_o need_v a_o marginal_a confutation_n he_o say_v that_o baptism_n though_o it_o do_v 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admit_v than_o their_o examination_n be_v take_v more_o private_o answer_n be_v not_o this_o contradictory_n to_o what_o he_o say_v chap._n 3_o art_n 6._o ☜_o ☜_o that_o the_o declaration_n of_o their_o knowledge_n and_o grace_n must_v be_v make_v in_o public_a before_o all_o the_o church_n though_o never_o so_o many_o now_o to_o press_v all_o to_o make_v their_o declaration_n before_o the_o whole_a assembly_n &_o yet_o to_o accept_v of_o some_o weak_a one_o do_v of_o it_o more_o private_o which_o indeed_o be_v the_o truth_n be_v a_o contradiction_n here_o he_o make_v two_o objection_n objection_n 1_o how_o shall_v the_o church_n know_v the_o fitness_n of_o such_o i._n e._n as_o be_v examine_v in_o private_a answ_n by_o the_o testimony_n of_o such_o godly_a man_n who_o they_o betrust_v with_o their_o trial_n who_o though_o they_o have_v not_o absolute_a power_n to_o determine_v yet_o make_v such_o report_n to_o the_o church_n as_o they_o accept_v the_o church_n proceed_v to_o admit_v they_o ●bject_n ●bject_n why_o be_v this_o favour_n show_v to_o some_o not_o to_o other_o be_v not_o this_o to_o be_v partial_a contrary_n to_o 1_o tim._n 5.21_o answ_n partiality_n be_v to_o respect_v the_o person_n not_o the_o cause_n here_o the_o cause_n be_v respect_v not_o the_o person_n or_o the_o person_n for_o the_o cause_n some_o being_n more_o weak_a and_o fearful_a we_o rather_o tender_v as_o jacob_n will_v not_o overdrive_v the_o feable_a sort_n of_o ewe_n and_o lamb_n lest_o they_o shall_v miscarry_v art_n 9_o he_o report_v that_o infant_n of_o parent_n that_o be_v no_o member_n be_v account_v to_o be_v without_o the_o visible_a church_n and_o in_o the_o same_o estate_n with_o the_o child_n of_o turk_n and_o heathen_n etc._n etc._n
and_o write_v in_o the_o margin_n cold_a comfort_n to_o christstian_a parent_n and_o cold_a charity_n to_o their_o infant_n ●nsw_n ●nsw_n 1._o it_o be_v cold_a comfort_n indeed_o if_o that_o he_o say_v be_v true_a but_o bless_v be_v god_n it_o be_v not_o so_o for_o though_o such_o infant_n be_v not_o as_o yet_o member_n of_o this_o or_o that_o particular_a church_n there_o yet_o he_o know_v we_o account_v they_o and_o their_o parent_n member_n of_o the_o visible_a church_n of_o england_n witness_v our_o writing_n in_o print_n discourse_n of_o covenant_n pag._n 36._o etc._n etc._n therefore_o he_o much_o forget_v himself_o to_o say_v we_o account_v they_o to_o be_v without_o the_o visible_a church_n 2._o to_o say_v we_o esteem_v they_o as_o child_n of_o turk_n and_o heathen_n be_v a_o most_o uncharitable_a and_o groundless_a censure_n unworthy_a of_o his_o pen_n or_o our_o practice_n to_o which_o we_o answer_v before_o the_o lord_n forgive_v he_o such_o hard_a speech_n for_o his_o quotation_n ans_fw-fr to_o 33._o q._n 20._o 21._o and_o ans_fw-fr to_o 9_o pos_fw-la 61._o 62_o if_o they_o will_v afford_v he_o the_o least_o word_n or_o show_v for_o either_o of_o these_o particular_n i_o will_v take_v the_o blame_n for_o ever_o let_v any_o please_v to_o peruse_v they_o but_o he_o forget_v the_o law_n in_o israel_n of_o amerce_v and_o stripe_v the_o man_n that_o bring_v a_o ill_a report_n upon_o a_o virgin_n of_o israel_n i_o must_v mind_v he_o of_o it_o answer_v to_o chap._n viii_o this_o chapter_n be_v spend_v especial_o the_o margin_n in_o invective_n against_o the_o strictness_n of_o our_o church_n covenant_n that_o restrain_v man_n that_o they_o can_v have_v elbow_n room_n and_o be_v at_o loose_a end_n when_o they_o please_v i_o will_v gather_v the_o strength_n of_o all_o he_o speak_v in_o this_o chapter_n into_o some_o objection_n and_o very_o brief_o answer_v they_o object_n a_o member_n say_v he_o can_v remove_v from_o a_o church_n without_o our_o consent_n seek_v and_o obtain_v art_n 1._o ●ns_n ●ns_n it_o cross_v the_o nature_n of_o all_o covenant_n in_o the_o world_n for_o to_o dissolve_v the_o covenant_n without_o the_o consent_n of_o the_o other_o and_o shall_v this_o engagement_n so_o solemn_a so_o sacred_a so_o deliberate_a be_v loose_v at_o pleasure_n by_o a_o man_n removal_n when_o &_o whither_o he_o please_v &_o it_o may_v be_v also_o not_o without_o apparent_a sin_n without_o acquaint_v the_o church_n withal_o &_o get_v approbation_n from_o they_o the_o church_n may_v be_v partial_a in_o their_o own_o cause_n may_v not_o some_o of_o other_o church_n object_n 2_o be_v consult_v withal_o rather_o than_o this_o pag._n 32._o marg._n shall_v a_o man_n infringe_v this_o covenant_n answ_n deprive_v the_o church_n of_o her_o proper_a right_n and_o lay_v she_o under_o blame_n of_o partiality_n upon_o a_o mere_a supposal_n that_o the_o church_n may_v be_v partial_a let_v this_o church_n be_v first_o consult_v withal_o rather_o than_o any_o other_o and_o good_a reason_n too_o for_o the_o covenant_n be_v make_v with_o she_o and_o if_o it_o appear_v she_o be_v indeed_o partial_a then_o let_v the_o counsel_n of_o other_o church_n and_o minister_n be_v call_v in_o which_o be_v never_o yet_o deny_v any_o member_n and_o i_o hope_v never_o will_v be_v but_o what_o need_v a_o man_n consult_v with_o the_o whole_a church_n what_o if_o his_o reason_n be_v secret_a object_n 3_o etc._n etc._n the_o covenant_n be_v make_v with_o the_o whole_a answ_n reason_n speak_v the_o whole_a aught_o to_o untie_v the_o knot_n but_o if_o there_o be_v some_o case_n extraordinary_a where_o the_o ground_n of_o removal_n may_v not_o safe_o be_v divulge_v to_o all_o as_o i_o confess_v it_o be_v possible_a so_o to_o happen_v let_v the_o party_n but_o intimate_v so_o much_o to_o the_o church_n and_o desire_v that_o some_o two_o ot_fw-mi three_o faithful_a man_n be_v entrust_v and_o what_o hinder_v if_o the_o church_n covenant_n bind_v so_o fast_o than_o as_o the_o disciple_n say_v of_o marriage_n object_n 4_o it_o be_v not_o good_a to_o touch_v this_o covenant_n pag._n 32._o 1._o a_o gracious_a sp_z irit_n count_v it_o no_o bondage_n but_o freedom_n answ_n to_o be_v constant_o under_o the_o sweet_a yoke_n of_o christ_n in_o gospel_n duty_n and_o such_o and_o no_o other_o be_v the_o particular_n of_o our_o covenant_n ah_o 21.5.6_o ex._n 21.5.6_o let_v none_o be_v weary_a of_o this_o but_o all_o be_v as_o the_o servant_n in_o the_o law_n that_o may_v have_v go_v out_o free_a yet_o love_v his_o master_n well_o choose_v rather_o to_o abide_v with_o he_o for_o ever_o 2._o yet_o it_o any_o man_n be_v desirous_a and_o steadfast_o bend_v to_o depart_v the_o church_n never_o hold_v he_o against_o his_o will_n though_o she_o see_v little_a or_o no_o weight_n in_o his_o reason_n and_o i_o hope_v it_o be_v not_o the_o case_n of_o marriage_n so_o easy_o to_o be_v dissolve_v but_o if_o the_o church_n be_v not_o satisfy_v with_o his_o reason_n he_o go_v away_o tacit_o accuse_v object_n 5_o slander_v yea_o virtual_o cast_v out_o and_o curse_v sure_o i_o be_o this_o be_v accuse_v slanderous_a and_o curse_a language_n ans_fw-fr 19_o deut_n 22._o ●_o 19_o not_o fit_a for_o a_o sober_a &_o grave_a man_n by_o that_o law_n in_o israel_n w._n r._n will_v go_v near_o to_o be_v amercy_v and_o stripe_v for_o this_o defamation_n what_o will_v he_o have_v they_o do_v when_o they_o can_v be_v satisfy_v with_o the_o ground_n of_o his_o departure_n must_v they_o needs_o act_v against_o light_n and_o conscience_n and_o say_v they_o be_v satisfy_v when_o they_o be_v not_o especial_o when_o they_o see_v a_o brother_n haply_o run_v into_o evil_n or_o danger_n by_o such_o a_o removal_n all_o they_o can_v do_v be_v through_o indulgence_n to_o suspend_v their_o vote_n and_o leave_v he_o to_o his_o own_o liberty_n and_o yet_o they_o will_v neither_o accuse_v or_o slander_v he_o much_o less_o curse_v he_o or_o cast_v he_o out_o these_o be_v word_n fit_a for_o nothing_o but_o retraction_n and_o repentance_n if_o man_n be_v once_o ●●tred_v into_o covenant_n he_o be_v so_o rivet_v into_o it_o that_o he_o can_v hardly_o object_n 6_o ever_o get_v out_o of_o it_o but_o must_v continue_v in_o it_o though_o perhaps_o against_o his_o conscience_n ibid._n answ_n to_o my_o best_a remembrance_n i_o never_o hear_v of_o or_o know_v any_o godly_a church-member_n that_o repent_v of_o this_o churchway_n &_o desire_v upon_o that_o ground_n to_o make_v a_o retreat_n 2._o if_o any_o shall_v be_v convince_v in_o his_o conscience_n as_o you_o say_v that_o there_o be_v sin_n in_o it_o and_o shall_v after_o all_o mean_n of_o information_n use_v solemn_o profess_v and_o make_v it_o appear_v ingenuous_o that_o he_o dare_v not_o in_o conscience_n proceed_v on_o in_o those_o way_n i_o know_v no_o church_n that_o will_v detain_v he_o object_n 7_o how_o shall_v this_o man_n thus_o dismiss_v without_o the_o church_n approbation_n and_o letter_n of_o recommendation_n be_v receive_v into_o any_o other_o church_n answer_n answer_n how_o many_o line_n do_v he_o spend_v to_o no_o purpose_n about_o untie_v this_o knot_n and_o when_o he_o can_v unloose_v it_o ☞_o ☞_o for_o that_o he_o know_v not_o our_o practice_n there_o he_o fall_v out_o extreme_o with_o we_o and_o our_o way_n as_o harsh_a and_o rigid_a i_o have_v read_v of_o harpia_n a_o lame_a woman_n in_o seneca_n who_o still_o complain_v of_o the_o roughness_n of_o the_o way_n that_o make_v she_o limp_v but_o faw_fw-we not_o her_o own_o lameness_n to_o be_v the_o cause_n i_o will_v not_o stand_v to_o make_v application_n but_o unloose_v his_o knot_n by_o tell_v he_o though_o a_o church_n can_v see_v cause_n enough_o to_o commend_v such_o a_o person_n as_o we_o speak_v of_o to_o another_o church_n for_o his_o departure_n from_o they_o as_o be_v not_o clear_a in_o it_o themselves_o yet_o he_o be_v a_o godly_a man_n and_o of_o a_o good_a conversation_n in_o the_o general_a they_o may_v and_o do_v use_v to_o commend_v he_o for_o his_o godliness_n etc._n etc._n and_o in_o prudence_n conceal_v any_o suppose_a error_n or_o infirmity_n in_o his_o departure_n from_o they_o and_o upon_o such_o a_o testimony_n he_o be_v receive_v and_o so_o need_v not_o be_v leave_v as_o a_o heathen_a answer_v to_o chap._n ix_o the_o first_o thing_n meet_v we_o be_v a_o contradiction_n for_o here_o he_o say_v in_o plain_a term_n ☞_o ☞_o that_o we_o in_o new-england_n conceive_v man_n may_v be_v true_a christian_n whether_o they_o be_v in_o church_n estate_n or_o no._n but_o chap._n 7._o art_n 1._o he_o affirm_v absolute_o that_o whosoever_o be_v not_o a_o settle_a member_n of_o a_o particular_a church_n be_v account_v by_o we_o profane_a and_o wicked_a answer_n
it_o from_o any_o reverend_a brother_n to_o blot_v his_o paper_n so_o unwarrantable_o 2._o though_o your_o ground_n of_o this_o report_n be_v weak_a yet_o it_o seem_v your_o credence_n be_v strong_a for_o you_o make_v inference_n from_o these_o premise_n against_o we_o and_o as_o your_o ground_n be_v bad_a so_o your_o end_n in_o relate_v of_o it_o be_v as_o bad_a i._n e._n to_o cast_v a_o blot_n upon_o our_o church_n as_o if_o their_o practice_n do_v cross_v their_o principle_n 3._o what_o will_v you_o say_v now_o w._n r._n if_o your_o information_n prove_v false_a as_o indeed_o they_o do_v for_o neither_o do_v their_o own_o church_n nor_o all_o the_o church_n send_v mr._n p._n and_o mr._n w._n but_o the_o whole_a state_n of_o new-england_n or_o general_n court_n with_o one_o consent_n upon_o some_o special_a employment_n which_o can_v yet_o be_v all_o finish_v now_o i_o have_v tell_v you_o the_o truth_n let_v i_o give_v you_o a_o few_o animadversion_n 1_o bestow_v to_o believe_v aught_o against_o your_o brethren_n hereafter_o 2_o slow_a to_o report_n it_o to_o other_o 3_o but_o never_o print_v it_o without_o manifest_a ground_n and_o a_o good_a call_n 4_o if_o you_o have_v do_v otherwise_o be_v swift_a to_o recall_v it_o to_o marg._n of_o art_n 4._o wherein_o he_o dispute_v against_o we_o about_o our_o non-communion_n or_o withdraw_v ourselves_o from_o other_o church_n in_o case_n of_o obstinacy_n by_o two_o argument_n 1._o because_o non-communion_n be_v in_o substance_n the_o very_a same_o with_o synodical_a excommunication_n object_n 1_o and_o by_o it_o he_o say_v a_o man_n be_v cast_v out_o of_o the_o church_n and_o give_v up_o to_o satan_n as_o well_o as_o by_o excommunication_n if_o it_o be_v so_o w._n r._n 1_o why_o have_v you_o say_v so_o oft_o in_o opposition_n to_o our_o way_n that_o our_o church_n have_v no_o power_n over_o one_o another_o ans_fw-fr when_o as_o our_o church_n have_v a_o power_n to_o withdraw_v by_o non-communion_n and_o that_o withdraw_a say_v you_o be_v as_o much_o as_o your_o synodical_a excommunication_n 2_o why_o do_v you_o so_o sleight_v our_o church_n counsel_n &_o admonition_n to_o other_o church_n as_o not_o be_v authoritative_a whereas_o if_o they_o be_v not_o obey_v it_o seem_v they_o can_v pass_v as_o sore_o a_o censure_n as_o all_o your_o synodical_a authority_n for_o you_o can_v do_v no_o more_o by_o it_o then_o excommunicate_a and_o so_o far_o you_o say_v we_o can_v proceed_v 3._o why_o then_o do_v you_o call_v we_o abusive_o independent_n for_o by_o your_o say_n it_o stand_v we_o in_o hand_n to_o depend_v as_o much_o upon_o other_o church_n for_o counsel_n and_o admonition_n as_o you_o on_o a_o presbytery_n or_o synod_n or_o they_o will_v give_v we_o up_o to_o satan_n as_o well_o as_o a_o synod_n 4._o why_o then_o do_v not_o you_o accord_v with_o we_o in_o this_o point_n of_o non-communion_n see_v in_o it_o yourselves_o and_o we_o can_v comfortable_o close_a rather_o than_o strive_v with_o your_o brethren_n for_o synodical_a excommunication_n to_o which_o their_o judgement_n can_v yield_v seeing_z that_o be_v the_o same_o in_o effect_n with_o this_o this_o be_v attend_v to_o will_v end_v a_o great_a part_n of_o the_o difference_n obj._n but_o while_o we_o oppose_v synodical_a excommunication_n we_o establish_v it_o say_v he_o by_o stand_v for_o non-communion_n it_o be_v the_o same_o in_o effect_n with_o the_o other_o ibid._n though_o w._n r._n think_v they_o be_v both_o one_o i_o can_v for_o that_o be_v positive_a ans_fw-fr this_o only_a negative_a that_o a_o sentence_n pass_v this_o not_o so_o that_o a_o cut_n off_o from_o churchdom_n at_o least_o for_o present_a &_o a_o give_v up_o to_o satan_n etc._n etc._n this_o only_a a_o cessation_n of_o confer_v church_n privilege_n etc._n etc._n by_o the_o one_o the_o church_n withdraw_v and_o call_v in_o that_o only_a which_o once_o they_o give_v which_o be_v the_o right_a hand_n of_o fellowship_n by_o the_o other_o the_o synod_n or_o classis_fw-la take_v away_o that_o which_o they_o never_o give_v or_o have_v power_n to_o bestow_v which_o be_v the_o excommunicate_v membership_n in_o their_o own_o church_n so_o that_o when_o we_o stand_v for_o the_o one_o as_o have_v no_o rule_n to_o carry_v we_o further_o we_o do_v not_o establish_v the_o other_o this_o be_v his_o first_o argument_n against_o we_o about_o non-communion_n the_o second_o that_o it_o be_v more_o cruel_a and_o more_o dangerous_a than_o synodall_n excommunication_n ans_fw-fr i_o think_v this_o seem_v strange_a see_v it_o be_v a_o light_a and_o lesser_a punishment_n than_o the_o other_o by_o non-communion_n a_o man_n be_v only_o let_v go_v into_o the_o world_n where_o satan_n walk_n be_v by_o synod_n excom_n he_o be_v give_v up_o and_o cast_v to_o satan_n to_o terrify_v and_o vex_v he_o but_o his_o argument_n for_o the_o cruelty_n and_o danger_n of_o non-communion_n be_v these_o four_o reason_n 1._o because_o by_o this_o whole_a church_n say_v he_o may_v come_v to_o be_v cast_v out_o ans_fw-fr so_o they_o may_v as_o well_o by_o a_o synod_n excommunication_n for_o if_o a_o synod_n have_v power_n to_o cast_v out_o one_o member_n of_o other_o church_n then_o by_o the_o same_o reason_n 2._o 6._o 10._o and_o so_o a_o whole_a church_n as_o well_o and_o church_n too_o for_o where_o will_v you_o stop_v 2._o by_o this_o say_v he_o the_o church_n desert_v be_v leave_v to_o itself_o in_o their_o error_n ans_fw-fr look_v what_o mean_v public_a or_o private_a a_o synod_n may_v use_v for_o any_o man_n or_o church_n regain_n the_o very_a same_o mean_n to_o the_o high_a extent_n may_v the_o other_o church_n use_v likewise_o 3_o this_o cause_v endless_a rent_n ans_fw-fr show_v in_o any_o point_n wherein_o or_o why_o more_o than_o the_o other_o 4_o this_o say_v he_o hinder_v not_o the_o infection_n of_o other_o but_o that_o by_o cut_v off_o the_o rot_a member_n the_o rest_n be_v keep_v sound_a answ_n do_v not_o this_o cross_n what_o he_o say_v before_o that_o by_o non-communion_n a_o man_n be_v cast_v out_o and_o deliver_v up_o to_o satan_n yet_o here_o he_o deny_v it_o ob._n ob._n popular_a government_n be_v one_o cause_n of_o schism_n in_o new-england_n and_o quote_v mr._n parker_n letter_n answ_n bless_a be_v god_n that_o under_o that_o government_n of_o we_o which_o you_o call_v or_o rather_o miscall_v popular_a the_o very_a neck_n of_o schism_n and_o vile_a opinion_n bring_v to_o we_o from_o hence_o be_v break_v when_o here_o among_o you_o where_o there_o be_v not_o such_o a_o government_n they_o walk_v bolt_n upright_o among_o you_o and_o crow_v aloud_o you_o shall_v do_v better_a to_o lay_v aside_o this_o objection_n till_o a_o presbyterian_a government_n have_v heal_v these_o sore_a breach_n in_o these_o church_n here_o answer_v to_o chap._n xv._o article_n 1._o say_v we_o hold_v the_o magistrate_n can_v lawful_o compel_v man_n to_o enter_v into_o a_o covenant_n with_o god_n answ_n it_o appear_v by_o his_o margin_n he_o mean_v a_o nationall_n covenant_n but_o you_o must_v take_v his_o own_o word_n as_o for_o proof_n he_o bring_v none_o and_o i_o believe_v he_o can_v but_o barr._n and_o rob._n which_o never_o come_v there_o and_o the_o apology_n which_o as_o he_o say_v lie_v by_o he_o as_o long_o as_o i_o live_v there_o i_o never_o hear_v or_o know_v the_o church_n hold_v so_o but_o he_o must_v have_v leave_n to_o say_v any_o thing_n marg._n say_v that_o many_o of_o we_o hold_v the_o magistrate_n have_v nothing_o to_o do_v in_o matter_n of_o religion_n let_v he_o know_v and_o all_o other_o that_o all_o the_o church_n with_o we_o do_v abhor_v that_o vile_a opinion_n some_o i_o believe_v answ_n of_o road-island_n &_o some_o other_o banish_v from_o we_o do_v hold_v so_o but_o those_o be_v go_v out_o from_o we_o and_o be_v not_o of_o we_o as_o it_o be_v say_v 1_o john_n 2.19_o if_o he_o have_v consider_v this_o distinction_n of_o the_o bless_a apostle_n he_o dare_v not_o have_v say_v many_o 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business_n as_o in_o the_o sight_n &_o presence_n of_o god_n with_o fast_v &_o prayer_n at_o least_o shall_v stop_v man_n mouth_n from_o speak_v ill_o of_o they_o and_o their_o way_n yet_o w._n r._n fail_v in_o his_o deal_n with_o they_o in_o divers_a point_n which_o i_o desire_v to_o advertise_v he_o of_o in_o the_o spirit_n of_o meekness_n in_o that_o offensive_a phrase_n say_v those_o person_n come_v now_o to_o be_v church_n he_o well_o know_v the_o meaning_n of_o that_o word_n it_o do_v not_o become_v gravity_n and_o holiness_n to_o give_v such_o deride_v word_n nor_o ludere_fw-la cum_fw-la sanctis_fw-la god_n hear_v all_o our_o word_n and_o see_v the_o scope_n of_o our_o heart_n therein_o but_o if_o he_o mean_v innocent_o in_o it_o i_o shall_v be_v sorry_a that_o i_o once_o name_v it_o he_o speak_v twice_o both_o in_o art_n 6._o and_o 8._o of_o the_o messenger_n of_o the_o magistrate_n s●nt_v to_o the_o gather_n of_o the_o church_n ●nsw_n ●nsw_n but_o there_o be_v no_o such_o thing_n do_v the_o magistrate_n come_v themselves_o in_o person_n if_o they_o can_v or_o if_o not_o they_o send_v no_o deputy_n or_o messenger_n the_o church_n indeed_o send_v messenger_n common_o their_o elder_n to_o lend_v they_o a_o word_n of_o counsel_n if_o they_o need_v be_v more_o experience_v in_o those_o way_n than_o common_o new_a beginner_n be_v to_o join_v their_o prayer_n with_o they_o &_o to_o give_v they_o the_o right_a hand_n of_o fellowship_n but_o the_o magistrate_n send_v no_o deputy_n he_o report_v in_o art_n 8._o that_o if_o the_o messenger_n or_o any_o stander_n by_o be_v unsatisfied_a they_o make_v their_o objection_n as_o they_o think_v fit_a until_o they_o be_v satisfy_v then_o in_o his_o marginall_n upon_o it_o it_o be_v a_o hard_a thing_n say_v he_o to_o satisfy_v all_o comer_n in_o what_o they_o please_v if_o any_o objection_n be_v against_o his_o life_n it_o must_v be_v present_o and_o open_o declare_v before_o the_o country_n this_o be_v little_a wisdom_n less_o charity_n ●ns_n ●ns_n here_o be_v many_o unwise_a and_o uncharitable_a passage_n lay_v unjust_o to_o our_o charge_n and_o all_o those_o without_o any_o proof_n at_o all_o but_o only_a h._n w._n i._o w._n &_o who_o know_v where_o to_o consult_v with_o they_o as_o 1._o that_o any_o slander_n by_o yea_o all_o comer_n may_v question_v or_o object_n 2._o and_o that_o even_o what_o they_o please_v 3._o if_o any_o fail_n be_v in_o their_o life_n they_o be_v present_o and_o open_o declare_v before_o all_o the_o country_n which_o thing_n be_v nothing_o so_o for_o 1._o none_o may_v speak_v a_o word_n but_o sober_o and_o orderly_o and_o 2._o not_o without_o leave_v desire_v and_o grant_v 3._o nor_o how_o much_o he_o will_v nor_o what_o he_o please_v but_o thing_n very_o weighty_a and_o necessary_a and_o 4._o not_o of_o any_o fail_n to_o their_o disparagement_n for_o if_o they_o be_v unsatisfied_a with_o any_o of_o they_o in_o point_n of_o discipline_n or_o matter_n of_o fact_n they_o be_v first_o to_o deal_v with_o they_o in_o private_a see_v they_o know_v before_o both_o the_o person_n that_o be_v then_o to_o join_v and_o the_o time_n and_o occasion_n of_o that_o day_n meeting_n and_o i_o be_o confident_a never_o a_o godly_a sober_a man_n will_v write_v other_o wise_a it_o be_v little_a wisdom_n or_o charity_n i_o be_o sure_a for_o he_o to_o affirm_v thing_n so_o contrary_a to_o the_o truth_n that_o if_o the_o m_o ssenger_n be_v unsatisfied_a with_o any_o of_o those_o that_o be_v about_o to_o enter_v into_o church_n fellowship_n they_o be_v forbid_v to_o enter_v into_o church_n estate_n answer_n answer_n this_o be_v as_o wide_a as_o the_o rest_n for_o the_o messenger_n never_o arrogate_a to_o themselves_o such_o power_n to_o this_o day_n nay_o they_o profess_o express_v against_o it_o constant_o in_o such_o meeting_n as_o to_o forbid_v their_o entrance_n into_o church_n estate_n the_o most_o they_o do_v at_o any_o time_n in_o this_o case_n be_v to_o desire_v leave_n to_o be_v faithful_a in_o interpose_v their_o counsel_n and_o that_o only_a when_o they_o see_v very_o great_a cause_n and_o withal_o leave_v they_o to_o their_o christian_a liberty_n now_o have_v answer_v to_o the_o article_n we_o will_v speak_v something_o to_o those_o of_o the_o marginall_n on_o this_o 5._o chapter_n which_o be_v not_o touch_v already_o he_o tell_v we_o mar._n to_o art_n 2._o that_o there_o be_v too_o many_o here_o who_o run_v the_o same_o church-course_n with_o we_o that_o hold_v that_o the_o magistrate_n have_v nothing_o to_o do_v with_o the_o first_o table_n but_o 1._o he_o know_v or_o may_v know_v at_o least_o that_o this_o opinion_n be_v utter_o against_o our_o judgement_n practice_n and_o establish_v jaw_n in_o new-england_n answ_n therefore_o it_o no_o way_n concern_v we_o 2._o nor_o do_v it_o any_o whit_n reflect_v upon_o our_o cause_n which_o he_o be_v too_o ready_a upon_o this_o or_o any_o occasion_n to_o disgrace_n for_o none_o be_v more_o dependent_a upon_o magistracy_n than_o those_o they_o call_v independent_n from_o who_o principle_n they_o never_o suck_v that_o dangerous_a opinion_n therefore_o he_o do_v not_o well_o to_o give_v such_o by-blow_n to_o innocent_a person_n and_o way_n 3._o if_o this_o shall_v be_v a_o blot_n to_o our_o cause_n that_o some_o of_o our_o churchway_n hold_v ill_a opinion_n let_v he_o make_v it_o appear_v that_o none_o of_o his_o way_n be_v gross_o taint_v with_o popish_a and_o arminian_n leavin_n or_o else_o blot_v out_o this_o margin_n he_o say_v margin_n to_o art_n 2._o it_o seem_v to_o he_o we_o have_v little_o less_o than_o a_o compound_n presbytery_n set_v up_o among_o we_o and_o church-canon_n in_o act_n though_o not_o in_o rule_n and_o give_v his_o instance_n for_o this_o 1._o as_o it_o be_v say_v he_o a_o agreement_n among_o the_o church_n and_o minister_n that_o no_o church_n shall_v be_v set_v up_o there_o without_o the_o knowledge_n of_o other_o church_n there_o be_v a_o compound_n presbytery_n 2._o that_o no_o man_n shall_v preach_v or_o vent_v any_o new_a or_o uncouth_a tenant_n until_o first_o he_o have_v communicate_v they_o with_o his_o fellow_n minister_n a_fw-la very_a good_a canon_n 3._o that_o such_o as_o be_v to_o enter_v into_o church_n estate_n do_v use_n to_o meet_v together_o before_o hand_n to_o acquaint_v themselves_o in_o private_a with_o each_o other_o spiritual_a estate_n a_fw-la canon_n 1._o do_v canon_n bound_v people_n to_o obedience_n answer_n so_o far_o only_o as_o they_o please_v to_o agree_v unto_o they_o and_o no_o further_o these_o canon_n be_v a_o agreement_n 2_o do_v presbytery_n consist_v of_o whole_a church_n for_o he_o say_v as_o it_o be_v a_o agreement_n of_o church_n as_o well_o as_o minister_n its_o little_a less_o than_o a_o compound_n presbytery_n if_o minister_n and_o people_n both_o do_v rule_v who_o shall_v be_v rule_v over_o by_o this_o presbytery_n 3._o he_o answer_v the_o thing_n and_o contradict_v himself_o both_o at_o once_o for_o he_o say_v art_n 2._o this_o give_a notice_n to_o magistrate_n and_o church_n of_o a_o church_n to_o be_v erect_v be_v by_o a_o law_n of_o the_o general_a court_n and_o can_v be_v as_o he_o say_v in_o margin_n and_o agreement_n of_o church_n therefore_o no_o ecclesiastical_a canon_n suppose_v many_o godly_a minister_n in_o london_n shall_v agree_v among_o themselves_o that_o every_o one_o shall_v preach_v down_o the_o superstition_n of_o that_o they_o call_v christmas_n and_o promise_v each_o other_o that_o till_o they_o shall_v give_v in_o their_o reason_n to_o the_o contrary_a they_o will_v not_o preach_v for_o or_o against_o discipline_n will_v w._n r._n call_v this_o agreement_n a_o presbytery_n or_o a_o canon_n let_v he_o see_v then_o how_o extreme_o wide_a he_o be_v in_o the_o other_o if_o church_n say_v he_o send_v deputy_n or_o messenger_n to_o represent_v themselves_o and_o to_o act_v in_o their_o room_n why_o not_o in_o a_o synod_n as_o well_o marg._n to_o art_n 6._o ●nsw_n ●nsw_n if_o church_n send_v their_o messenger_n or_o choose_v man_n to_o confer_v and_o consult_v only_o in_o a_o synod_n in_o their_o name_n without_o any_o authority_n of_o conclude_v and_o determine_v of_o matter_n or_o much_o less_o bind_v their_o church_n to_o what_o they_o determine_v of_o which_o be_v our_o case_n in_o new-england_n as_o we_o have_v say_v i_o know_v nothing_o against_o such_o a_o practice_n but_o if_o synod_n do_v more_o and_o go_v further_o his_o allegation_n be_v to_o no_o purpose_n if_o so_o much_o time_n say_v he_o be_v spend_v in_o join_v seven_o or_o eight_o person_n together_o into_o one_o church_n how_o much_o time_n will_v be_v requisite_a to_o join_v 3000_o together_o but_o the_o apostle_n go_v a_o short_a way_n marg._n to_o
2._o that_o good_a minister_n be_v lay_v aside_o there_o 2._o many_o good_a minister_n 3_o on_o this_o ground_n because_o they_o aim_v at_o man_n of_o special_a ability_n and_o whereas_o he_o say_v he_o be_v tell_v so_o that_o be_v not_o sufficient_a let_v he_o produce_v his_o author_n or_o it_o must_v lie_v on_o he_o i_o wonder_v he_o count_v it_o strange_a in_o art_n 3._o that_o we_o shall_v desire_v to_o have_v a_o man_n to_o be_v a_o member_n before_o he_o be_v a_o officer_n be_v it_o not_o a_o thing_n most_o natural_a for_o a_o body_n to_o employ_v its_o own_o member_n answ_n 2._o be_v not_o the_o mutual_a interest_n in_o each_o other_o the_o strong_a tie_n ●_o do_v not_o all_o body_n and_o society_n in_o the_o world_n the_o very_a same_o be_v eve●_n any_o man_n of_o another_o corporation_n elect_a sheriff_n major_n or_o into_o any_o special_a office_n in_o london_n unless_o he_o be_v first_o season_v with_o this_o same_o salt_n as_o he_o say_v of_o membership_n of_o the_o same_o body_n to_o the_o 4_o art_n of_o ordain_v minister_n by_o private_a man_n let_v he_o not_o wonder_v at_o this_o for_o numb_a 8.10_o he_o may_v see_v answer_v that_o though_o the_o levite_n be_v church_n officer_n and_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n be_v not_o yet_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n do_v lay_v their_o hand_n upon_o the_o levite_n and_o though_o all_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n can_v not_o do_v this_o yet_o some_o principal_a one_o do_v it_o instead_o of_o the_o rest_n so_o it_o may_v be_v lawful_a in_o some_o case_n to_o do_v the_o like_a 2._o if_o people_n have_v a_o power_n of_o election_n of_o officer_n which_o be_v the_o great_a then_o why_o may_v they_o not_o ordain_v they_o which_o be_v the_o less_o unto_o the_o office_n which_o before_o they_o elect_v they_o to_o but_o i_o refer_v the_o reader_n to_o see_v more_o of_o this_o in_o mr._n mather_n late_a answer_n to_o mr._n herle_n pag._n 45._o to_o the_o 5._o art_n where_o he_o say_v we_o hold_v the_o imposition_n of_o hand_n of_o the_o presbytery_n but_o a_o mere_a formality_n answer_n answer_n do_v he_o judge_v all_o the_o church_n and_o minister_n of_o christ_n there_o so_o devoid_a of_o religion_n reason_n or_o the_o light_n of_o common_a sense_n as_o to_o account_v a_o venerable_a ordinance_n of_o god_n a_o mere_a formality_n but_o that_o you_o may_v see_v whether_o he_o deal_v well_o with_o we_o or_o no_o vid._n ans_fw-fr to_o 34._o q._n p._n 67._o where_o its_o express_o say_v that_o though_o the_o essence_n of_o a_o minister_n call_v consist_v in_o election_n yet_o we_o look_v at_o ordination_n by_o imposition_n of_o hand_n necesary_a by_o divine_a institution_n be able_o he_o with_o any_o show_n of_o reason_n explicate_v a_o thing_n necessary_a by_o divine_a institution_n by_o he_o mere_a formality_n be_v this_o right_a comment_n upon_o the_o text_n and_o note_v also_o that_o this_o very_a place_n cite_v be_v one_o proof_n he_o bring_v for_o this_o article_n but_o whether_o for_o he_o or_o direct_o against_o he_o i_o pray_v judge_n for_o the_o other_o print_a proof_n discourse_n of_o covenant_n p._n 23._o i_o confident_o affirm_v there_o be_v not_o any_o one_o word_n or_o the_o least_o show_n for_o such_o a_o expression_n let_v the_o reader_n prove_v whether_o i_o wrong_v he_o or_o no_o but_o only_o that_o people_n have_v power_n to_o choose_v their_o own_o officer_n let_v he_o not_o delude_v the_o world_n by_o thwack_a quotation_n on_o his_o article_n when_o it_o be_v a_o usual_a thing_n that_o some_o of_o they_o speak_v nothing_o for_o he_o other_o direct_o against_o he_o in_o margin_n of_o 5._o art_n he_o say_v that_o all_o that_o be_v elect_v by_o th●_n people_n to_o preach_v which_o be_v one_o chief_a duty_n of_o the_o pastor_n and_o do_v receive_v by_o compact_a the_o due_n by_o law_n to_o the_o pastor_n ●●uld_v be_v their_o pastor_n ans_fw-fr though_o preach_v by_o a_o pastor_n call_v into_o office_n be_v one_o of_o the_o principal_a work_n of_o his_o office_n yet_o all_o preach_v be_v not_o a_o pastoral_a work_n as_o act._n 8.4_o the_o scatter_a church_n without_o respect_n to_o a_o office_n be_v say_v to_o preach_v the_o word_n every_o where_n now_o if_o a_o man_n be_v call_v by_o a_o congregation_n to_o exercise_v his_o gift_n in_o this_o work_n of_o preach_v only_o and_o not_o to_o be_v a_o pastor_n to_o they_o shall_v he_o not_o exceed_v the_o bound_n of_o his_o call_n if_o he_o shall_v be_v as_o w._n r._n will_v have_v he_o a_o pastor_n to_o that_o people_n and_o by_o this_o reason_n also_o he_o condemn_v all_o lecturer_n and_o i_o suppose_v himself_o in_o so_o do_v for_o they_o be_v call_v to_o preach_v yet_o no_o man_n look_v on_o they_o or_o they_o on_o themselves_o as_o pastor_n of_o that_o place_n where_o they_o so_o exercise_v as_o for_o the_o due_n he_o receive_v for_o his_o preach_n whether_o more_a or_o less_o by_o a_o compact_n or_o otherwise_o whether_o of_o the_o same_o kind_n with_o the_o pastor_n or_o not_o be_v not_o material_a for_o it_o be_v his_o call_n not_o his_o wage_n make_v he_o a_o pastor_n or_o no_o pastor_n in_o the_o marg._n of_o the_o 6._o art_n he_o say_v that_o one_o pastor_n or_o teacher_n alone_o or_o one_o private_a man_n lay_v on_o his_o hand_n it_o have_v neither_o proof_n nor_o truth_n answ_n but_o be_v against_o our_o judgement_n and_o practice_n and_o so_o i_o leave_v he_o to_o look_v over_o such_o ungrounded_a and_o loose_a speech_n cast_v upon_o our_o way_n art_n 7._o that_o in_o our_o practice_n we_o usual_o confound_v the_o pastor_n &_o teacher_n office_n the_o pastor_n and_o teacher_n equal_o teach_v and_o apply_v the_o word_n without_o any_o difference_n this_o have_v no_o more_o truth_n than_o the_o other_o answer_n for_o it_o be_v both_o our_o profess_a judgement_n and_o constant_a practice_n that_o as_o the_o teacher_n be_v choose_v who_o proper_a gift_n be_v aptness_n to_o teach_v so_o after_o he_o be_v choose_v he_o bend_v himself_o that_o way_n and_o wait_v upon_o teach_v so_o the_o pastor_n upon_o exhot_v as_o rom._n 12.7_o 8._o though_o in_o such_o congregation_n where_o there_o be_v but_o one_o he_o labour_v to_o improve_v his_o talon_n both_o way_n for_o the_o present_a necessity_n till_o that_o defect_n be_v supply_v as_o good_a reason_n he_o have_v so_o to_o do_v and_o for_o his_o proof_n see_v how_o punctual_a he_o be_v he_o turn_v we_o to_o mr._n cot._n sermon_n on_o the_o revel_n and_o other_o text_n will_v he_o have_v we_o look_v over_o all_o master_n cot._n sermon_n which_o may_v be_v at_o least_o 500_o or_o 1000_o page_n to_o find_v his_o proof_n and_o when_o we_o have_v do_v we_o shall_v be_v just_a where_o we_o be_v for_o mr._n cot._n we_o know_v be_v express_o contrary_a to_o he_o and_o for_o that_o we_o turn_v he_o not_o to_o all_o his_o sermon_n as_o he_o do_v we_o but_o to_o one_o certain_a place_n in_o his_o cat._n p._n 2._o who_o word_n be_v these_o the_o pastor_n special_a work_n be_v to_o attend_v upon_o exhortation_n the_o teacher_n on_o doctrine_n and_o his_o own_o and_o other_o practice_n there_o run_v according_o in_o the_o marg._n to_o this_o article_n he_o say_v that_o some_o of_o we_o do_v question_n the_o communion_n of_o church_n as_o a_o thing_n overthrow_v some_o of_o our_o principle_n 2_o that_o other_o to_o uphold_v it_o have_v invent_v a_o power_n in_o one_o minister_n to_o translate_v his_o own_o power_n to_o another_o minister_n to_o administer_v the_o seal_n and_o censure_n to_o any_o of_o their_o member_n both_o these_o be_v ungrounded_a unproved_a expression_n answ_n and_o but_o repeal_v by_o he_o now_o answer_v before_o by_o we_o therefore_o i_o pass_v they_o by_o as_o for_o that_o inference_n he_o seem_v to_o draw_v that_o every_o ministerial_a act_n without_o power_n and_o irregular_o do_v it_o seem_v void_a and_o so_o million_o of_o person_n unbaptise_v to_o this_o day_n this_o may_v have_v be_v spare_v for_o that_o maxim_n in_o law_n well_o approve_v of_o by_o divine_n in_o this_o case_n quod_fw-la fieri_fw-la non_fw-la debuit_fw-la factum_fw-la val●t_fw-la hold_v good_a here_o answ_n i_o know_v no_o ground_n that_o zipporah_n have_v to_o have_v circumcise_v her_o son_n for_o it_o be_v proper_a to_o the_o man_n as_o gen._n 17.9.23_o yet_o be_v do_v it_o be_v not_o void_a or_o null_a &_o though_o a_o priest_n popish_o affect_v shall_v baptise_v a_o child_n with_o many_o invent_v superstitious_a the_o child_n be_v not_o look_v on_o as_o unbaptised_a to_o art_n 9_o he_o say_v we_o hold_v all_z other_z act_n beside_o administration_n of_o the_o sacrament_n be_v common_a to_o member_n as_o well_o as_o to_o minister_n ans_fw-fr 1._o